Episode 38: You Want Connection, Your Partner Wants Sex. Who Comes First?

My husband barely talks to me all day and then gets into bed and expects me to go 0 to 60 immediately. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So our whole episode today is about what comes first. Physical intimacy or emotional intimacy. But I think I'm gonna just blow up the whole episode and say, wow. Actually, what needs to come first is dance intimacy.

Oh.

Our pre recording ritual of Xander dancing really took a turn today. There was a new move that was added.

Oh. It's kind of a aerial butt shake. It's like a butt rotation.

A jump in the air with a hip thrust. There was even a hacky sack kick action going on. You actually did this for the first time last night. You, like, picked up a dog toy with your feet and threw it into the air. Like, do people still do hacky sack? Are people gonna know what I'm talking about, or am I dating myself?

It's also a soccer move.

Oh.

Ew.

How lame am I that I'm thinking of it as a hacky sack thing rather than a soccer thing?

I don't know. It says a lot.

Oh, that's pretty bad. But anyways, I really enjoy it. It's a pretty great move she does.

And I have discovered the cheat code for. For when Vanessa is upset. The cheat code to cheer her up. And that is horrible dancing.

It really works shockingly well.

There's part of me that would like to get better at dancing, and then there's part of me that's, like, the worse I am, the more she laughs and, you know, the smoother our relationship is.

So I was really laughing at those hip thrusts today. A little sneak peek behind the podcast. I would say that we get into little fights 50% of the time before we record an episode. There's, like, some small thing that happens that we. It's not ever like a fight, but it's like an irritation, a tiff. Yeah. And we have to, like, reset the mood.

I have to dance.

I mean, this is how we discovered that your dancing is the cheat code.

This has only happened in the last like, month or so. I know it's a trend that we have broken today.

It is a gift that the podcast has brought into my life, understanding how much I enjoy your dancing. So thank you. Pillow Talks podcast. You're welcome.

That's the podcast talking.

That's a very high voice.

You're welcome.

This is the podcast starting to sound like Martin.

I'm pretty limited in the voices I can do today.

Our episode is all about physical intimacy and emotional intimacy and what comes first.

Chicken or the egg?

Yeah. So this is a very special episode for a couple of reasons. Why? One, because it's actually going to be a sneak peek at our upcoming book with Simon and Schuster, tentatively titled Sex Talks coming your way 2023. This is a section of the book. It's something that we haven't really talked about before in this level of detail. This is a pretty big sneak peek at some book content. I'm actually not even sure if we're allowed to be doing this. Maybe this will be the episode that gets pulled. Simon and Schuster will tell us, like, no, it's too much. Take it down. Listen while you can. We also wanted to talk about this because another very exciting thing is that we are in the middle of our Intimate or nasty challenge. And if you are a regular podcast listener, you remember a few months ago we did an episode about what makes someone good in bed. And we were sharing some quotes that you guys shared with us, and one of them was make it intimate and make it nasty. And we loved that quote so much, we created an entire challenge around it.

We also made a freezer magnet or two that say intimate or nasty.

Give them to our employees.

A really low budget Zazzle purchase. Unfortunately, we don't have them available for sale for you guys yet.

More Zazzle free advertising. They're going to sponsor us one of these days. Zazzle. Anyways, yes, we made a whole challenge out of it, which is basically a combination of our Sex Challenge and our Connection Challenge. And those both address emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. The Connection Challenge is all about the emotional intimacy. Sex Challenge is about the physical intimacy. So right now, up until Sunday, so just a couple of days from the day that we released this episode, you can join that challenge and decide what does your relationship need right now? Do you need more of that emotional connection? Go with the Connection Challenge. Do you need more of that physical intimacy?

Go with the Sex Challenge or do you need both? Or do you want both? We highly recommend getting both. If you have not purchased either of our subscribers. Sex Challenge or Connection Challenge. We are giving you a great deal getting both at once. You can do them at the same time. You can do them one first, then the other. You can do it however you want.

You can save it till next year.

If you want to save it till next year. Whether we care. No, but we do care. We would rather you do it sooner because we think it's actually going to have a huge impact on your relationship. The choice is yours because the quote.

Was, make it intimate and make it nasty. So we say go all in and do both. So let's back it up for a second and talk about, like, what the heck are we talking about? If you haven't really heard us talk about sex or connection before, we think there are two types of people in the world. Those who need to feel emotionally connected in order to want to have sex, and those who need to have sex as a way to feel emotionally connected. And we're using sex in a very broad way, like any sort of physical intimacy. We're not just talking intercourse. The cruel irony of the world is that there's usually one of each partner in every relationship. So probably one of you wants emotional connection first, the other one of you wants physical connection first. And that can feel like a huge challenge.

Yeah. Like an insurmountable task. How do we decide who gets what they want or who gets what they need without sacrificing the other person's well being or impinging on their boundaries or whatever it is?

Yeah, it can just feel really tricky. Like, what I want is the opposite of what my partner wants. So how the heck do we make this work? Like, the common conversation that comes up around this is one partner saying, like, I don't want to have sex with you unless I feel connected to you first. And then the other partner responding. But the way that I feel connected to you is by having sex.

Yeah. Like, we haven't been having any sex or we haven't been having very much sex, and therefore I'm not feeling very connected to you. So I don't how to be connected to you right now such that you feel comfortable having sex. That's how I would get more comfortable.

Yeah. So it creates a standoff of like, well, I want. I want my thing first. Well, but I need my thing first, you know, and you feel really stuck. Like, where the heck are we supposed to go from here? So we asked our Instagram audience, does this dynamic come up in your relationship? Is it causing tension in your relationship? 75% of people said, yes, this dynamic causes tension in their relationship. And when we asked about this, we just got a ton, ton of questions from people saying, like, well, you know, what do we do? Does this mean we're not compatible? We won't be able to find a way to make our relationship work. So this is an incredibly important dynamic to understand. So we are going to break this down in this episode. We're going to talk to you about how this conundrum has affected our relationship. Our advice for what to do if you and your partner are in a gridlock over who comes first. And we're even going to get into the question, is sex ever really just about sex?

All right, I'm ready to do this. But before we do that, we are going to read you the review of the week. Simply the best.

Wait, sing that a little bit more.

More?

Yeah.

Like, again, the song.

Yeah.

Oh, I do not remember any other words to this song. You're simply the best.

You don't remember the melody.

What is it?

You're simply the best. Simply the best. Know the rest. Excellent.

Excellent. Oh, five stars, by the way. I wouldn't expect any. I would be confused if they gave us, like, three stars. Simply the best. Three stars. Best and most helpful podcast I've ever subscribed to.

Wow.

Courses and guides are totally worth it. Wow. We didn't plant this one, did we?

I wrote it.

No, she did not. She is just kidding. In case you didn't detect the sarcasm, we got the foreplay guides recently. Two thumbs up. You can't afford not to get them. Skip a nice dinner out. Cancel all your streaming subscriptions for a month. Skip those daily coffees on the way to work. Budget a few bucks a month until you can get them. Trust me and my wife, whatever pleasure you temporarily give up is well worth it. Then there's some, I think, sort of like, omg, wow emoji. What is it? There's like, that one. It's like. I feel like this is like orgasm.

Emoji, but they're X's over the eyes.

Yeah, there's X's over the eyes and the mouth is open. It's like, dead, but also, like, in a lot.

Dead, but orgasmic.

Dead, but a lot of pleasure. And then party emoji. Party face.

Yeah, dead, but a lot of pleasure. I can't get over that. I might need to go.

I'm not sure. We might need to look that one up. If you're still not convinced, though, then check out the free guides on their website. Doing your partner a favor, and follow their Instagram account and subscribe to their YouTube channel as well. Thanks. VNX wow. That has gotta be. That is the kindest review ever. I have to agree. Everything that we sell and all of our free stuff is super awesome and will make a huge impact. I'm really happy that it's been so good for this couple as well.

Thank you. Okay, I looked it up and this is the dizzy emoji. I completely disagree with this. Why would you have X's over your eyes if you're dizzy?

I mean, if you pointed a gun at my head and said, you, you have to, like, draw what dizzy looks like, like, I don't even know, what would you do?

The spirals in the eyes.

Y.

That one. That one makes me think of dizzy. But the X, I don't know about this one.

I don't know.

I think it's dead, but still feeling pleasurable.

Dead, but pleasurable. Dead inside, but coming.

We're getting dark now. All right, well, thank you. Thank you so much for this review. We read these reviews one a week because they mean so much to us. Not only is it really fun for us to see your reviews and, like, know about the impact that we're making on your lives, but it also helps so much with the podcast growth and being able to reach more people, more couples, help more relationships. So we would greatly, greatly appreciate it if you left a review for us. It could just be the five stars. You don't have to write a full review or maybe just say, like, this is great. You don't have to make a long one if you don't want to. But we do have a lot of fun reading them out on the podcast. And we pick one review a week to be our winner. So write your review once and you are entered every week. Going forward, if you are picked, then you get to come over to our Instagram account, send us a DM at vanessamarin Therapy and let us know, like, what your situation is, what your question is, and we will send you back a free mini coaching session. So totally personalized, private. We'll answer your questions. It's just our little way of saying thank you. All right, so let's get into the episode. So first I wanted to share a couple of real life stories that we got from our Instagram account. My husband barely talks to me all day and then gets into bed and expects me to go 0 to 60 immediately.

The next one is my wife. I'm also a woman has a much higher sex drive than I do. She doesn't want to bug me constantly about having Sex. So instead, she just doesn't say or do anything. So much so that she kind of gets quiet and shuts herself inside her head, to which I think I've done something wrong or have pissed her off. So sex is the last thing on my mind.

And.

And don't ever think to initiate, because who wants to try to have sex with someone while they aren't talking to you?

Ooh. I think everyone can probably relate to these stories.

Yeah, I can relate to that one, I think.

Yeah. So we first of all just wanted to give a little bit of a disclaimer. We were trying to figure out how to poll our Instagram audience about this and try to get a sense of, like, who's the partner that wants emotional connection first? Who's the partner that wants physical connection first? And it was just too tricky to figure out how to do that without going in this heteronormative direction of saying, like, what does the man in the relationship want? What does the woman in the relationship want? So when we did those polls, we put up a little, like, heteronormative alert and, like, you know, specifically said we're going to be talking about male female dynamics, because it just. It wouldn't really make much sense to be, like, well, in a woman. Woman relationship, it's the woman who wants emotional connection and also the woman who wants physical connection. So our results here are definitely heteronormative, and we apologize for not being creative enough, think of a different way to do this. But we still thought it would be useful to share this.

Yeah. And there's also some. You'll see later on, there are some added gender dynamics on top of all of this, so it's. It's easier in this case to talk about it in this way.

So we went over to our Instagram audience, like I mentioned in the intro, and we asked people, you know, about this dynamic, and in particular, we asked people to tell us, what's your gender and which one do you want to come first? Because we had a hunch that probably it would be the woman who wants to have that emotional connection first, whereas men might want to experience that physical intimacy first.

That's the stereotype.

Yeah, that's the stereotypes we wanted to see. Does that pan out? So what did we find?

It absolutely does. 86% of women said that they wanted emotional connection before physical connection, and then 77% of men said that they wanted physical connection first. So I guess the stereotype is born out in the data. It's a bit stronger for women, but still, you know, the vast majority of women kind of meet the stereotype, and the vast majority of men do as well.

Yeah. So there is some truth behind the stereotype, but I think it's really important to talk about, like, what may have led us into this place. And I think a lot of it comes down to, frankly, like, really shitty socialization that we all receive. Men in particular are really taught that they're not supposed to be emotional. Like, that's just not an acceptable thing for a man to be in our society. Right.

Or it's just very uncomfortable. It's not something you have a lot of practice with. And so you're used to fitting in these norms in terms of how and when it is acceptable to express emotion or be emotional.

Whereas, you know, women, on the other hand, we're definitely given much more societal permission to be emotional and to, like, be in contact with our emotions and know what we need and ask for that from others. But I think men, a lot of men grow up feeling like the only culturally permissible way for them to want to connect with a woman if they're heterosexual is through sex.

And in addition to that, it could also be in that sort of afterglow after sex that is a safe moment for a man to. To be a little more emotional with his words or emotional physical intimacy. Like, you know, you're cuddled up, you're touching each other, you're looking into each other's eyes in a way that can feel really connecting after sex, that feels really safe. And also there's probably physical reasons for this. Like, there's all these chemicals that have been released in your brain after orgasm that probably lower inhibitions, make you feel really safe and comfortable. Makes a lot of sense that a man or anyone who doesn't feel very comfortable or safe expressing emotion will feel safer in that moment.

So we're going to get into this question a little bit later in the episode. The whole, like, is sex really just about sex? Thing. But I think it's just so important for us to recognize that for a lot of men, sex feels like the only way they're allowed to express that closeness and to have that intimacy. That being said, we also want to be clear that the stereotype is not true for every couple. Right. And one of the couples that it is not true for is us. So in our relationship, I am actually the partner who wants to have sex before emotional intimacy. Like, sex is what creates emotional intimacy for me. Whereas you.

Yeah, I mean, I. I like emotional intimacy. I. I mean, I also like Physical into like non sexual physical intimacy as well, like cuddling. But yeah, I mean, I never really want sex if things don't feel solid and connected between Vanessa and I. And kind of like the person in that second example we read where it's like her wife is kind of quiet and shuts herself down and she's like, why am I going to want to have sex with her? It seems like she doesn't want to talk to me. I really relate with that. If it feels like something is off between Vanessa and me, I am not thinking about sex. And the thought of sex is like, oh, that feels kind of unsafe.

So for us, you know, when we're in a good place with each other, both of these things feel easy. Like, it doesn't feel like we have a. Like, oh, no, I want my thing first. No, I want my thing first. It's just like, yeah, we're feeling emotionally intimate. We're feeling physically intimate. There's just this flow to it. But we've definitely gone through stages of our relationship where we just felt very disconnected from each other and we ran into problems with, like, how do we build back that disconnection? Because we each wanted our thing to go first.

Yeah, for me, it's really like, I feel like I have this baseline level where it's like, if our connection is above a certain level, then great, like, I'm good. I'm not even. I'm not even thinking about sex or connection, what comes first. But it's like if I'm below some threshold which is hard to identify, I don't really know how to explain what that is. I just feel it. If I'm below that, sex is not an option. The funny thing is, many of the times we've. We've gotten into this in like, real, you know, real issues that we were having. But I feel like we've gotten into this kind of conundrum territory. Just as often in moments where you or I have been sick for a while and not having sex or like, or like, what tends to always happen to us is Vanessa will get sick and I'll be like, fine the whole time. And then right as she gets better, then, like, I get it and then I get sick. And then it's like, like three weeks go by, then we haven't had sex, you know, and I'm like, oh, man. Like, I just want to cuddle and.

Like, just fuck me.

And. Yeah, I mean, we reach a point where it just feels like, tense between us. Like, oh, God, we haven't had sex. In forever. And I'm like, no, but I'm sick, and I just need to be taken care of.

Yeah. So it's really in the rebuilding of that connection when we get thrown off, that we struggle with this. And so I, you know, I'm telling a story in the book about a really difficult time that we went through in our relationship. And this, like, that. That thought was just going through my head of, like, why won't he just fuck me? You know? And I didn't at all take the time to think about, what must that feel like for you? Feeling this anger from me or this frustration that maybe that would make you not exactly want to have sex with me in those moments. But for me, it always. It feels like this. Like, we just have to get it done. It's like, get back in the saddle. Just get it done, and then we'll feel more connected. But, yeah, it's hard to, like, think about, like, like, well, maybe he doesn't want to have sex with you because you're being kind of cranky and grumpy about it.

Yeah. I mean, and it's hard. You know, me looking back on this right now, hearing you say that, and just thinking about the way I just described this, you know, I described it as feeling like there's a threshold that needs to be met with connection, and then things feel better. Like you said, when. When you say, you know, like, why can't he just me to kind of, like, get us over that threshold. I can see that, too. Yeah. I know that if we have sex, we'll get over that threshold. And it's like, in my mind, I know, yeah, this will be good afterwards. I will be glad that I did it. But in that moment, there's just something inside of me that feel. It feels impossible to do. So it's just, you know, it's great to see that you are looking at it now like, oh, what must that be like for me? I just want to acknowledge I can totally see the other side of it to looking back, where it's like, 100% of the time. We've been through this. It is. Once we get past that threshold, we're good.

Yeah.

It's. The problem is over, and we're past it. And yet in the moment, you know, where that threshold is is, like, it's a huge challenge.

Yeah. This is the biggest question that came up for people when we were talking about it on Instagram. You know, people kept saying, like, I'm just desperate to solve this. We feel like we're in this very stuck place. We can't reconnect. So, like, how the heck do we fix this? Like, whose thing gets to go first? And I think for a lot of couples, and this is definitely the case for us, is it sort of feels like somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. So somebody's thing is going to go first, and the other partner is just going to get the shit. What's the shortest?

The shit? The shit end of the stick. Wow. I think the shit end of the stick is pretty good. That's way worse than the short end of the stick.

What's the shit stick?

The short. The short, shitty end.

Shit end of the stick?

Yeah. You know, you put the short end in the shit.

Okay, I'm going with it. Somebody has to get the shit end of the stick. Their partner's thing is going to be the thing that goes first. So this is a dynamic that has come up in, you know, in my sex therapy practice for years, literally since, like, the first clients that I started seeing, since the dawn of time, I've been working a long time. And I want to be honest here, for, like, a very long time. My approach to this was trying to encourage couples, like, you can do both at the same time. Like, both of your needs are important, and we don't want to get in the standoff of whose goes first. Like, we just want to have some deeper understanding of what you guys are each looking for and communicate that to each other, and you'll get back on the same team and there won't be this tension. And I have to admit that this approach had very limited success. You know, like, my clients were definitely, like, okay, we've done all that, but still, there's just this feeling that, like, somebody's got to go first with it, and somebody gets the shit end.

Yeah. I mean, it's so challenging because I can imagine how in a therapy session when you're obviously, like, not about to just have sex right there, intellectually, you can feel like, okay, yeah, we can do both of these things. We're talking about it, we're relating. We're validating each other. And I can totally imagine how you could feel like, okay, cool. Yeah, it feels like we're making progress. We're each understanding each other, and then the rubber hits the road. When you know you're back home, it gets down to, like, doing it, and then you're like, oh, God, this doesn't feel right.

So in working on this book, I spent a lot of time just, like, sitting with this dynamic talking to people about it, brainstorming, like, what is a more successful way to approach this? And I got to the point where I felt ready to grab the shit.

End of the stick.

To grab the shit end of the stick and to say something controversial. I think the emotional connection should come first. Oh, yes.

Interesting.

And this is a very hard thing for me to say as somebody who wants the physical connection to come first. Like, there is definitely that little voice in the back of my head being like, it's not fair. I want my thing to come first. I get it. Believe me. When I finally, like, kind of stumbled upon this, I wrestled with it for a long time in my own head. I didn't even want to tell Xander that I was thinking this for a while. So I was just playing around with it in my own head for a long time. And finally I was like, you know what? I hate to say this, but I really think that this is the solution for this. What got me thinking about this was I was thinking back so much about how this affected Xander and my relationship and putting myself in his shoes and imagining what would it feel like to feel me being tense and frustrated and annoyed and wanting him to have sex with me.

And then you add in the whole other dynamic of performance anxiety, and, you know, maybe if the genders were reversed, it might feel a little different. But then, you know, there's the challenge in heterosexual sex. If you are going to have intercourse with your own penis, it needs to get hard. And there's this whole mental aspect of, you know, I would really struggle with that of, like, let's try to do this. And then I couldn't get it up or I would lose my erection.

Yeah.

And then that spirals into a whole another issue.

Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about. There were definitely times where we just decided, okay, we're just gonna do it. We're just gonna have sex. And, you know, maybe I should have felt in those moments, like, yeah, I'm getting my thing. You know, I'm getting mine. The reality was, like, the sex that we wound up having was terrible.

Yeah. It was never good.

There were definitely times where you couldn't perform, but even when you could, like, it felt disconnected. It felt disconnected. Honestly, the word that was coming to my mind was gross. Like, it felt kind of gross to be having sex with each other when we were so wildly disconnected.

Yeah. I think that after an orgasm, it felt better. And then it was like, okay, cool. We're like, we did this thing, and we're like, on. We're on. The road to recovery or whatever. But yeah, looking back, the worst sex we've ever had are those times.

Absolutely, absolutely. So I think that's what made me finally make that decision. I just thought, you know, trying to have sex with somebody when you feel disconnected from them, it doesn't feel healthy, it doesn't feel good. And for a lot of couples, it may not even feel safe to have sex in that kind of a state.

Oh, yeah. I mean, and then layer on top of that the reality in most couples that the woman very likely struggles to orgasm during intercourse. You know, for us at least, we've spent a lot of time learning what we each need to come and, you know, we feel fairly confident that when we have sex, both of us are going to get an orgasm. I can imagine how challenging it would be in a relationship. You know, let's say you, you struggled to orgasm. And I was like, I gotta have sex in order to feel more connected to you. And you were like, okay, all right, fine, let's just do it. And then like you're struggling to orgasm, I'm struggling to help get you there. And then it's like, you know, I come and you don't. And then there adds this whole layer of resentment, like, well, what the fuck did I just. Yeah, why did I do that? I got nothing out of that.

And I think even one more layer with that too is maybe somebody who's experienced some sort of sexual abuse or boundary violation where it's like, that could be re. Traumatizing or triggering to be having sex with somebody where, you know, it doesn't feel safe. The emotional connection isn't there. Maybe you feel angry at each other or resentful. It's a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, I mean, I can see for us how we have been really lucky in terms of those times that we compromised on boundaries a bit in order to get it done. We didn't cause any long lasting impacts. There were definitely times where performance issues came up and things got worse before they got lot better. But I feel like we're really lucky that we didn't cause lasting damage.

Yeah, we absolutely could have. So I want to be crystal clear here. Just because I'm saying that the emotional connection should come first, doesn't mean that emotional connection is more important than physical connection. Like, we both very strongly believe that physical intimacy and emotional intimacy are equally important. They're equally valid. There's no hierarchy in the value to this. It's just when you are in a tough place, when you're feeling this disconnection from each other. Because again, like Xander and I were saying, when you have, you know, a base foundation of connection like this doesn't feel as challenging. It feels much more complicated when you're feeling overall disconnected. So when you are in a tough place, start rebuilding the connection by focusing on the emotional intimacy first. We're going to talk about how to do that in a second, but I want us to take a quick detour and answer this question. Is sexual sex ever really just about sex? So I think one of the other dynamics that comes in and makes this whole emotional versus physical intimacy conundrum feel so challenging is that it's really easy for us to write off sex as just being about sex.

Especially for men.

Especially for men.

This is where the gender stereotypes really worsen. So it's tricky because the gender stereotypes, there's truth in them when it comes to, like, who wants sex first and who wants connection first. But there's this added stereotype what sex is about for men that make this really insidious and damaging.

So we had one man reach out to us on Instagram and he said, you know, men get a bad rep for wanting sex, but we want to connect too. I wish that were more clear. So if you are in a relationship with a man who, you know, seems to want that physical intimacy first, I think it's really important for you to not write them off as just being horny. They just want to release. You're just the vessel for their release. Then to really think about it as connection. That your partner wants to feel connected to you. They want to feel present in the moment with you, they want to share with you and see if that softens your view of what they're looking for.

Yeah, I mean, this also really ties in with the, like, I want you to want me episode that we, we just did. It's so often that, like, a man is wanting sex and the female partner goes, okay, fine, I'll give it to you half heartedly, and they have sex. It's not very good. It doesn't feel very connected. The woman who said, sure, let's just do it definitely doesn't feel fulfilled because she didn't even want to do it. And her male partner ends up not feeling fulfilled. Her heart wasn't in it. It didn't build any connection. He keeps asking for sex. You know, he's like butting his head against a wall, like, I want to have the sex so I can feel connected. But the sex we're having is super disconnected, is so disconnected and half Hearted like your heart isn't in it. And it's like, hey, I want your heart to be in this. And. And at the same time, she's just like, well, but you're just a guy. You just want sex. So she's just writing off what he wants.

And I think.

And so much resentment builds on both sides. Like, she's like, I'm just giving up my body for you. And he. And he's like, what the hell? Like, you're giving me this thing, but you're not in it with me.

He's getting 5% of her heart every time. And so I think that feeds into the desperation that a lot of men have where they keep asking, they keep insisting they really want it. They seem to want it all the time because they're getting just this little tiny scrap of what it really is that they're wanting.

And you're not really emotionally intelligent enough to identify what's going on and to just come out and say what it is that you're wanting or need meeting. And so that's like the bumping your head into the wall metaphor, I think fits so well, because it's like, we're just doing the one. The thing we know. It's like, as the guy, it's like, the thing I know to do is to keep trying to have sex until I can get that connection.

Yeah. It's like, if I get 5% of the heart, I need to have it 20 times to, like, feel something.

Yeah. And then the stereotypical woman is bumping her head into the wall, being like, oh, well, I'll just give him sex because that's what he needs, even though I don't want it. And it's like, you guys would both be better served to just not do it and figure out how to build connection in another way. But you gotta talk about it.

So that brings us to our big question of how do we create that emotional intimacy? Because this is another really interesting wrinkle in the whole thing is that even for people who are like, I want emotional intimacy first, a lot of us don't know what the heck we need to create emotional intimacy. It's the sense of, like, yeah, I want to feel closer, but, like, what does intimacy even mean? Like, how do I feel close to my partner? I don't know what to do to build intimacy.

It's like, I know it when I feel it, but I don't know how to get there. Like, when we have it. Yeah, I can point it out, but I couldn't tell you how we got there.

Yeah. So a lot of times we'll ask people, do you know the specific things that help you feel connected to your partner, that create that emotional intimacy? So most people can't answer these questions, and that's a huge problem that's just gonna keep you stuck in the standoff even longer because you're like, okay, fine, we can have the emotional connection first. Okay, but how do we create that? I don't know. Right. So you need to know the specific action steps to create emotional intimacy in your relationship. Otherwise, you're just gonna feel like you're treading water. You know? One woman reached out to us on Instagram, and she said, we used to spend hours talking about anything and everything, but now when we manage to get a rare few minutes of alone time, I liter. I can't think of a single thing to say to him.

Sounds like our connection challenge would really help with that.

Oh, look at that segue. Yeah. So this is a huge reason why we created the connection Challenge in the first place, is because we know how difficult it is to actually create intimacy. It can just feel really overwhelming. And we created the connection Challenge to give you specific things that you can do to create emotional intimacy and closeness.

It can sound silly, like, oh, why do I need these prompts in order to, like, have some conversations? But we have gotten such good feedback on it. People just being like, yeah, we just needed, like, the smallest little nudge in the right direction once we get started, like, the floodgates are open. It's so awesome to be able to help people like that.

Yeah. So both of our challenges, the sex challenge and the connection challenge, every day, you get two options of a challenge to do together. So for the sex challenge, there's a more sensual challenge and a more kind of explicitly sexual challenge. The connection challenge has a communication challenge and an action challenge. So we're giving you, like, different ways, whatever path you choose, different ways to, like, build and create that intimacy, and lots of fun ways to play around and try new things.

Yeah. So it's not just like, a month of conversation. Starters in the connection challenge and in the sex challenge is not just like, we're giving a you different positions to try. It's so, so, so much more than that.

Yeah, there's a lot of variety, so definitely make sure to check it out before the doors close on Sunday. And like Xander was saying earlier, if you want to do both, because we think you should do both, there is an extra special price that we are, I don't think, ever going to have no.

Never again. Never again.

Never again. So we will also address these questions in the book in 2023.

But, yeah, you're gonna have to wait a little while.

You're gonna have to wait a little while. But, yeah, if the intimate or nasty challenge doesn't feel like the right thing for you, we totally get that, and we would love to hear some feedback. We're still working on the book, still flushing out these chapters, so if you have any thoughts, any questions about this whole physical versus emotional intimacy, definitely reach out to us on Instagram nessamarintherapy, and we would love to hear from you.

All right, so let's get into a couple listener questions then. Right. All right, so the first one is, how do I explain that it takes time to build connection, not just one conversation that should then lead to sex?

I think this question really illustrates the importance of being able to share with your partner the specific things that help create emotional intimacy for you. So I think a lot of people think it's just like, oh, just deep conversations. Right. And then that can create this feeling of, like, okay, yeah, sure. It's a one for one. Like, I ask you one slightly deep con, you know, question, and then we go have sex.

Yeah. Or feeling. Or feeling like, oh, okay, fine. I'll give you a deep conversation so that we can get out of this hole, and then we never have to do this again until we get back into the hole. And it's like, no. Like, the emotional connection is something that should be important to you all the time.

Yeah.

Just recognizing that right now where we are feeling disconnected is like, our emotional tanks are not very full. So instead of forgetting about it once things get better, like, let's work on continuing to keep our tanks full. Exactly.

So, yeah, to the person asking this question, I would want to know, like, is conversation one of the things that creates intimacy for you? It may or may not. But also give your partner more examples of other things that create that intimacy. And I think you could very easily flip this around and tell your partner, okay, well, would you say then we just have sex one time, and that should just be, like, enough, enough, you know, sex for us for the rest of a lifetime? Of course not. Right. Like, both physical intimacy and emotional intimacy are things that we need to continue having with each other. It's not a one or one and done.

Yeah. So describe to your partner how good it feels for you to have good conversations on an ongoing basis. That is not just something that you want to have when you feel disconnected. It's something that helps you feel connected all the time and give some examples of the types of conversations that you like. Like to have. Sometimes partners who are not very emotionally intelligent perhaps feel like, oh, having these deep conversations are scary. And so, like, I only do it when I absolutely have to. And so just understanding more of, like, what types of conversations you like to have on an ongoing basis. It doesn't have to be this. We're talking about our deep, deepest, darkest secrets all the time, but just, I want to know about how your day was. I would love for you to ask me about how my day was. I would love for us to, you know, check in at monthly, plan for the future, check in on how things are going, what. What we're gonna do soon for fun stuff like that. So just give a preview of the stuff that you'd like, rather than just saying we need to have these deep conversations constantly. Yeah. All right, next question is, what if I like both emotional connection and sex, depending on the day? How can I not confuse my partner? I wanna give props to this person. I think that that's a really emotionally intelligent question to ask. And recognizing that they go back and forth and not wanting to confuse the partner.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I would definitely just share this with your partner. And this is what I really love about the whole intimate and nasty thing, is that it just gives you, like, a fun way to talk about this. In our relationship, we've taken to sort of asking each other, like, oh, is it an intimate day today or a nasty day today, you know?

Yeah.

And it just, like, it feels. Feels fun and playful. It doesn't feel so serious, but it gives each other the opportunity to kind of say, like, this is what I'm needing from you a little bit more. So share that with your partner and try using that exact trick.

Yeah. I mean, I think just talking through how you're realizing sometimes you want one first, sometimes you want another first, and talking to your partner about what side of the fence are they on? Are they kind of straddling the fence like you? And maybe suggest, like, hey, how would it feel if on a day where I'm feeling like my emotional tank is a little empty? Like. Like, maybe, like, I message you while I'm at work and be like, hey, I. It would feel so good to just reconnect emotionally when I get home. Or like, you're feeling horny. It's like, hey, it would be really nice to have some hot sex later. Are you up for that? Like, just kind of having a way to warn your partner about how you're feeling. I think just give, you know, letting them know in advance rather than just kind of surprising them with it. All right.

If you are interested in checking out our intimate or nasty challenge, we will put a link to it in the show notes. Definitely make sure to just pop over, give it a little look. See, because the doors are closing on Sunday. Just a few days and we will never have this pricing again. So come check it out. We also have a five day money back guarantee. So if you're like, oh, my God, I'm listening to this episode on Sunday now I've got to make this big decision. Don't worry, you can kick the decision down the road a little bit. Try it out for five whole days. If it doesn't feel like it's a great fit for you, it's not creating more emotional or more physical connection, we will give you every penny back. So no big deal.

Yeah, we're, we're super confident that you won't feel that way. We've gotten so much amazing feedback on both of these challenges.

Literally thousands. We should have said that a little bit more earlier, but literally thousands of couples have gone through it and we have got, I mean, just come over to the link to read some of the stories. Like, you don't even have to buy it from us if it's doesn't feel right for you, if it's a financial challenge, whatever it is. But like, I think even just reading, reading the stories will give you hope you guys can get back to being connected and not feel in this place where you feel like opponents. Like, one person gets their thing first and one person has to be the loser. Like, you absolutely can reconnect and have so much emotional and physical intimacy.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we answer the question, does it count if you have to ask for it? This is going to be a good one.