Episode 62: The Truth About Money and Relationships

So either you share everything. 50. 50. It's just like. Yeah, it doesn't matter how much you make or how much I make. If we buy a hundred dollar TV. Can you buy a TV for $100?

I don't know. Maybe it's maybe a small one.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

All right, we are recording on episode six to two, Money.

It's appropriate that you started that way because I have a choose your own adventure for you.

Hit me.

You can choose one of four songs to sing to start us out with.

Okay.

She works hard for the money. Money, Money, Money. Mo Money, Mo Problems or Bitch better have my money. She works hard for the money.

I know three out of those four songs, but two?

I knew you were gonna pick that one.

It was the first one where I was like, I know that song and I know how to sing it. Mo money, mo problems. I'm like drawing a blank on the tune right now, so help us out, Vanessa. Come on.

Well, I want to hear one other line other than she works hard for the money.

I don't know. Does not exist in my brain. That knowledge.

Just that one line.

But come on, help. Help us out. What about Mo Money, Mopomo money we.

Come upon the more problems we see. Comic Con. Cussing about Comic Con, apparently.

Interesting. So this might be why you don't.

Hear Vanessa singing what they want from me. It's like the moment we come upon.

The more problems we see.

There we go. Now I'm really wondering, is it come upon or come across?

Come upon. Just sounds really formal. Very formal.

Okay. Took a quick Google break. It's the more money we come across. I got too formal with a pawn.

That makes a lot of sense. I would love to just come across more money. Yeah, I mean, that could really, like short circuit the need to do this podcast episode at all. If we just all. If we could just come across more money, then yeah, maybe. Maybe we wouldn't need to talk about it. Maybe we wouldn't need to bridge differing perspectives.

Who wouldn't want to Just come across more money without the problems.

Yeah, but. But the problem is the more money we come across, the more problems we see. So maybe. Maybe it won't work. Okay, but wait, what's the last money, money, money. I don't even know Who?

Money, money, money, money.

Okay, who. Who is that?

I don't know.

Oh, man. And then what was the last one?

Bitch better have my money. Rihanna.

Oh, okay.

Geez.

I don't.

Bitch better have my money. Of course, we're gonna have to cut this. This intro. This is way too much singing for one episode. Today we're talking about money and specifically how to navigate money in your relationship. So we are obviously not financial advisors. Not gonna be giving financial advice.

Nope.

So this is not the episode to listen to if you wanna learn about, like, Bitcoin or NFTs or investments. Investments. But we are gonna talk about how to navig that money can stir up in your relationship. So we asked our Instagram audience if finances ever put a strain on their relationship. 68% said yes. Honestly, that feels really low. I feel like we probably could have worded it as have they ever put a strain in your relationship? And that would have been a hundred percent for sure. Everybody's had a fight about money at least once, but 20% of our audience said that they often are experiencing strain, disagreements, fighting because of money. And money is one of the top three things that couples fight about and even break up over.

Oh, I mean, and definitely break up over. Like, it's one of the top three things that you fight about. It's for sure going to be one of the top three things that you break up or divorce over.

Money, sex and kids. The big three. And I think the challenge with money is that so many of us just have no freaking clue how money works, how investing works, how to say, like, even basic financial information.

And we're not going to tell you.

We'll tell you some basic stuff, but I think it's just such a big problem. And I will take responsibility for this too. Like, I definitely had periods of my life and periods of our relationship where I didn't know anything. I kept my head in the sand. And it caused issues in our relationship. It caused issues for me. Like, I've been there, and so, you know, I don't want to speak from this, like, holier than thou place. I definitely. There's still so much about money that I don't know. But I, you know, I think it's just so common. Like, where do we learn the basics about how to deal with money. I mean, I remember in. In school learned how to write a check. That was like the. The sole extent of my financial education was learning how to write a check.

I feel like there was a point in time where maybe I was in, like, sixth grade or something where I knew how to balance a checkbook. And then as soon as I got a checkbook, nobody. I really didn't do it anymore. It didn't really seem necessary. And then very quickly, we got to the point where it really became unnecessary one, because pretty much nobody writes checks. Though, ironically, we just bought a house, and, like, we've been a lot of that. Why is it that people in the, like, construction or, like, home inspection business, like, have not figured out how PayPal works or, like, how to accept credit card payments? It boggles my mind. It's like they kind of don't want to get paid on time. But anyway, going back to that. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, with the Internet and mobile banking and stuff, the idea of, like, balancing a checkbook is maybe it's not outdated. It is important. Know how much money you have, and banks do make mistakes sometimes. You would be surprised. But, yeah, I mean, now it's like you just tap that thing in the app and it tells you, like, oh, you spent this money. You. You spent this much on these things, and you had this much money come in from these things. But I was also just going to say on the flip side of what Vanessa said of, like, not really knowing how things work or keeping your head in the sand, I can say for sure I have been guilty in our relationship of feeling this pressure to know how things work and to project that. Oh, I know. Like, I know what I'm doing. And in reality, I have very limited knowledge. Just really, I have a lot of ideas or platitudes of, like, how I want our financial situation to be. And I'm definitely guilty of sort of, like, not practicing what I'm preaching in terms of being, like, oh, well, yeah, like, I want to be saving a lot of money. I want to have this set aside for that and that set aside for whatever. And then, like, Vanessa hears that, and then what she sees is like, oh, well, we're spending a lot of money on this and that, or he spends a lot of money on himself. And, you know, there was definitely a kind of a reckoning point where it was like, hold on, I'm, like, saying all these things. I don't really know what they mean. I don't know if I'm actually doing Any of them. And that's also a crappy message I'm sending to my wife about, like, what is it that we're actually trying to do? Because I'm not actually doing the thing I'm saying I want to be doing.

Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, it's this topic that it's confusing, it's convoluted. Most of us don't have any sort of education in it, and then we definitely don't know how to deal with it. In relationships, where now there are two people with confusing relationships with money who don't know what's going on. And you have to communicate about it, all kinds of stuff. So it's totally understandable that this is one of the top three things that we are fighting about. So in this episode, we're going to kind of do advice column style again. We put up a call on Instagram and to ask our community, like, tell us, how do you struggle with money in your relationships? What sort of fights does it cause? What conflicts are you in the middle of? So we have a bunch of examples we're going to walk you through. We're also going to walk you through some of our best tips for navigating finances together as a couple.

Before we do that, you know what time it is, right? It is review of the week time. We need, like, a little review of the week jingle or song that I can sing. Maybe someone could write me a little review of the week song jingle type.

Thing that I. Wow.

Yeah.

That's a request.

I know. It is a request. All right, let's do this. Like your virtual sexpert Best friends.

Oh, yeah.

That. That's who we are. All right. Stumbled upon Vanessa and Xander's Instagram and absolutely fell in love right away. When I saw they had a podcast, I had to listen. I look forward to listening every single week. And I always end up learning so much and laughing out loud. And their content consistently improves my communication with my partner. And I can 100% say it has made our relationship a healthier one. Just worked up the courage to buy the four play guides and 30 day sex challenge and could not be more excited. Even just a year ago, I would have not had the confidence to suggest these to my boyfriend. But now talking about sex is so much easier and so fun. Thank you, thank you, thank you. V and X. Keep doing what you're doing. Smiley face, heart hands. Making a heart. Love your fellow. Oh, it is a. Looks like a. A woman graduating from some kind of school. Unicorn puppy face. Woo.

Woo. What a Delightful review. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, these reviews really go so far in helping the podcast grow and reach new couples. It helps Apple like display the podcast more often when people are looking for a new podcast to listen to and they see, see, oh my gosh, look at all these five star reviews. This is worth me listening to. They're more likely to listen. So we really appreciate you taking the time to leave a review. If you have ever listened to an episode and we've made you laugh or given you a good tip that you've put to use in your life, we would so appreciate you taking the time to leave a review. And as our way of saying thank you, we enter you into a giveaway every week going forward. Once you write us that review in Apple Podcasts. And if you are featured as the review of the week, you can DM us on Instagram anessamarintherapy and ask us a question and we will give you a free mini personalized coaching session. So we'll send you a voicemail like over Instagram right back with some of our best tips and advice. All right, so let's get into it. So the first thing that we wanted to start with is just kind of some general advice about navigating money and relationships. We got a lot of great questions and we're going to share different tips within our responses to each of those questions. But we were also realizing, like, there are some other tips that don't quite fit into all the questions that we wanted to share with you. So we figured, let's get started on a little bit of a foundation of our best tips, techniques, tools and resources for navigating money in your relationship. So first one is to start talking about money slowly and in a general sense, first.

So I shouldn't make a calendar invite for four hours long this Saturday morning. That's like, all right, we are figuring this money shit out.

Time to review your expenses.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of funny. It's very similar to sex in this way. Oh, yes. A lot of us wait with sex and with money. We don't want to talk about it because it feels like this very taboo topic. We're not supposed to talk about it. It's too uncomfortable. We don't know how to. We don't know what to say.

It's just supposed to work naturally or spontaneously.

So we wait until things are really bad and we're arguing, we're fighting, there's disconnection, and then we start talking about it. But by that point, so much has Built up that it winds up just spilling out in a really uncomfortable, unhelpful conversation.

Yeah. Or yeah. Or like you end up disclosing like, oh my God, I've actually been judging for your purchases for the last six months and now we're going to review all of them. And how is it possibly going to go positive if that's what comes out? Like, how are you going to set yourselves up for success? How is money not going to be a super triggering topic next time if the first time you talk about it it's this big, like, boiling over situation?

So we want to ease our way into these conversations and instead of going in hard with like, we need to talk about how you spent money last week or you need to return that thing that you bought. Instead, start talking about it in a more general sense. And this is even a great tip for people to use where, you know, if you're dating or you're just starting a relationship, like, have money be a topic of conversation from early in the relationship with questions like, you know, what's your relationship with money? Like, when you think about money, what kinds of feelings get stirred up for you? So you're talking about it in this general sense rather than going in straight for somebody's, you know, personal experiences with it. And sort of looped into that as our next tip, which is to talk about your money stories with your partner.

I think the word story really makes this powerful because it helps you realize we each have our own perspectives, we each have our own stories. They came from somewhere. There's no objective truth like, this is the right thing to do with money and this is the wrong thing to do with money. And I think a lot of us build up this idea in our head that like, we are doing things the right way and other people are doing things the wrong way. And it's this very black and white thing. And that kind of becomes a non starter for a lot of people because it's like, if you've already decided that there's only one way to do something and your partner's doing it another way, how are you going to bridge that gap? And so I think taking responsibility for the fact that like, yeah, I have a story of how it works that is based on all of these, this various influence and input and you have a story.

Yeah. So I think the really important part of that of like the story aspect of it is to go back through your history. We all have spent an entire lifetime being taught and absorbing messages about money. So if you go back to your Childhood. And you think about, like, how did you see your parents treat money? What kinds of conversations did they have about it with each other? What kinds of arguments did they have about it? And then, you know, what did they teach you? What did they directly tell you about money and how it works and how the world works versus, like, maybe there were things that they never directly told you, but you sort of absorbed it. Like, maybe your parents had a lot of anxiety around money, and they never said anything directly. Like, you know, you have to be really careful with money, but you could just feel that, like, ooh, money is something that's scary and it's overwhelming and there's never enough of it.

I mean, I think another interesting thing, too, I'm assuming you're listening to this podcast and you're probably an adult is like, as an adult, talking to your parents about money. Because I think that, you know, when you are a kid, your parents selectively give you certain information about money. Like, your parents aren't sitting down with you being like, all right, kids, here's our financial situation. Like, let's review this. The finances. This month was a great. Was a great month for us. We put $20,000 in the bank and blah, blah, blah. And so I think, you know, I've realized when it comes to money stuff that, like, you know, when I talk to my parents now about what things were like, when I was a kid versus when I was a kid and remembering what they were talking about, like, the story is a bit different now. You know, I think your parents are probably going to be a lot more forthcoming with you about, like, what was the financial situation like? Like, oh, like, remember that time that we, you know, you guys bought that house when I was 10? Like, what was that like for you financially? And I. And it might be interesting to just hear, like, oh, you know, they give you a somewhat different story or a more complete picture of what it was like now versus what it was like then. And that might help you realize, oh, some of these messages I got when I was a kid were maybe somewhat incomplete or, you know, whitewashed in certain ways or something like that.

Yeah. But I think going back to what you were saying earlier is, like, when you have this conversation with your partner, you really develop so much more understanding and compassion and empathy for your partner because it's so easy for us to fight about money. And, like, I can't believe you bought that. I can't believe you haven't saved enough for this. You know, it's so easy to fight about it. And to feel like, God, we're just on totally different pages. My partner wants something completely different from what I want. But if you take the time to have this conversation and peel those layers back and recognize, like. Like, wow, my partner grew up with so much scarcity, with, like, their parents struggling to put food on the table, with money being the. Something that feels so scary and overwhelming to them. Like, now I understand why they're so frugal. Or I. I've been calling them cheap our whole relationship. It's like you just get to understand where those beliefs and those stories and those ideas came from. And. And like you were saying earlier, it helps you realize there is no one objective right way to deal with money. It's like we just all are doing our best with the baggage that we've been given, you know, from our early experiences.

Yeah. And I think our parents probably all tried to do their best to give us messages that they thought were the best messages for us to receive as kids around money. And when you talk to your parents now about it, you might see that there was other stuff going on as well. And just. I mean, at least for me, that kind of helps me question some of these ideas that I feel like were just baked into me from growing up and realize, oh, you know, those things that. That might feel really strong because they were just messages that, you know, got delivered from a really early age. You know, maybe there's. There's more to it than just that stuff.

Yeah. So sharing your personal history with money with your partner, and one other really important aspect of this is to talk about gender roles. How did you see money and gender roles when you were growing up and even, you know, throughout entire life? So I think a very common thing that comes up in male female relationships, sort of what Xander was alluding to earlier is, like, we are raised to believe that men are the one that handle the finances. Men are just better at this kind of thing. Like, men are better at numbers and math, and they're smarter about, like, investments and all that kind of stuff. And I think definitely the tides are turning. Of course, you know, in this day and age, we have so many more women who are taking financial control, even being in full financial control of, like, their families and, you know, in their relationships. But I still think, like. Like, I'll say for myself, I definitely had periods of my life and even growing up with a mom who was very, you know, financially, like, participatory with my. In my family, like, I still had phases of my life where I just had this like, head in the sand approach to money, or it was like, I don't know. It just feels scary, and it feels, like, a lot, and I don't really care. I just. I'm just not gonna. I'm just gonna ignore it. I'm just gonna kind of put my head in the sand.

And I have a ton of empathy for Vanessa for that now because we've shared more of our money stories. And, for example, Vanessa's. Vanessa's mom was pretty much the primary breadwinner. Both of your parents worked, but your mom was the primary breadwinner for you growing up and still is. And yet, like Vanessa was saying, and yet your mom doesn't really handle the finances in your family. Your mom has.

She handles the making of the money.

She makes the money, but she has.

To do with the money.

Yeah. Like, where the money is, how you access the money. I found out early on in our relationship, Vanessa's mom has never once used an atm. She does not know how to take cash out of the bank, except if she walks into the bank to get the cash. So, I mean, you know, there's, like, just stuff like that where it's like, of course, if that's how things are happening growing up, like, you're gonna. You're gonna take something from that.

Yeah. So at the beginning of our relationship, I really fell into that. Like, yeah, Xander's the one who controls the money, and he can make the decisions about where to go. And I'm thinking I'm just being this, like, you know, freewheeling, lackadaisical, like, yeah, do whatever you want, babe. Like, partner. And I didn't realize that it actually felt like a tremendous amount of pressure to him to be the sole for all of our financial decisions. And so we had some. Some important conversations at the beginning of our relationship of Xander saying, like, hey, I. Like, I need you to participate in this. Like, it's not fair for me to be the only one navigating this, and I don't want to be the only one navigating this. So that kind of feeds into our next piece of advice, which is to divide up the mental load of finances.

Because there is a big mental load when it comes to finances, even if there's not a lot of. Of work. Like, if. You know, especially in this day and age with everything online, like, there are a lot of ways to automate the vast majority of your finances, so that, in theory, the amount of, like, hours you're putting in weekly or monthly to manage your finances is quite low. But I will say, you know, as someone who has automated a great deal of our financial stuff, like, there is a much an outsized mental load associated with that feeling of, okay, well, how are things doing? Is everything okay? What if this happens? What if that happens?

Yeah. And I mean, it's. It's interesting because we had, you know, we had that conversation in our relationship. We've had it a few times, and it. It just rears its head so easily. Like Xander was saying, you know, we just bought a house. This is like the biggest purchase that we've ever made. So money is definitely front and center for us right now. And I noticed during the whole mortgage process, I was like, huh, Zander's really taken the lead with all. Everything mortgage related. Like, he's getting all the paperwork, he's coordinating with the mortgage broker. And it was just a. Just such a great reminder to me, like, it's so easy to slip into these patterns of feeling, you know, putting the pressure and the onus on you. And we both need to make a conscious effort to say, hold on a second. Are we dividing the mental load around this in a way that feels fair?

Yeah. And you. And you also observed me being a little stressed out and starting to. To have more anxieties and worries and kind of like spiral a couple of times around, like, oh, my God, interest rates are going up, or like, what if this happens? What if that happens? And. And I think I feel like you did a really good job of, like, you could have just been like, hey, you need to chill out. And that would have not felt very good. I would have been like, well, screw you. You're not doing any of the work. It's easy for you to say that, you know, and that's how you start building your resentment. Like, oh, well, of course, of course. She just wants. She doesn't have to worry about anything, so of course she's chill about it. But instead you acknowledge, like, hey, I see that you are doing all of these things, and so I understand, I can understand how that is feeling anxious or stressful. And like, are there ways that we could rebalance this? Like, what do you need from me? Are there ways that. That, you know, I could get more involved? And, you know, and then I was able to make a decision. Oh, you know, I think I ultimately didn't get you. You too much more involved. It was just helpful for me to hear that, to have that offer from you. And I was like, you know, actually, like, what we are doing now is it's not a lot of Work. We're almost done with the process. Like, I just need to be able to vent about this sometimes. But yeah, it was just helpful to hear you say that.

Yeah. So I think a big part of the mental load is first going to be educating yourselves. Like, like we said, you know, we just don't learn how to manage finances. So many of us are completely clueless. And again, I totally get and empathize with how easy it feels to just, like, just bury my head in the sand. I don't want to open up my bank accounts. I don't want to look at the numbers. I'm going to get stressed out. It's going to be lower than I thought it was. Like, I totally get how scary it can be to take an honest look at your finances. And you have to do it. You have to learn at least the bare minimum about how your finances work. And so that includes, like, you know, how much money you're bringing in. This is actually, this is a little bit of an embarrassing story, but there was a point in time early in our relationship where I didn't even know what my salary was. I, like, I was working a crappy marketing job and I think you and I were starting to get serious and, like, talking about money. And I, like, I didn't even know what my actual salary was. I thought it was a different number. I was like $5,000 off. And it was a very low salary at that time. So $5,000 is a big deal. So it's like, you have to know at least the bare minimum of, of, like, what's coming in, what's coming out and where things are. Like, this is another really important aspect of it. Of, like, there's so many people who don't even know where their money is. And we've heard so many awful stories about, you know, relationships where one partner gets seriously injured or even passes away and the other partner is clueless, like, has no clue. I don't know where the money is. I don't know what the accounts are. I don't know how to access it.

What are the passwords?

Like, nothing. So, like, you have to know at least that bare minimum information. A couple of other resources that I'll pass along. Like, the first book that I read about money was Ramit Sethi's I Will Teach youh to Be Rich. And I still recommend this book to this day. I've recommended it to so many people. It's just such a great practical guide. Like, it really breaks things down for you. It's written just In a really easy to read type of way. And once I read that book, I was like, oh, money is not as complicated as I thought it was. Like, there are just a couple of things that I needed to learn. Now I feel like I have this foundation. So I think the interesting thing about money is, like, there is always more to learn. Like, you could get super, super advanced and, you know, really nuanced about, like, specific investments and different ways to put your, you know, you could get really advanced with it. But for your average person understanding, you know, making basic investments, it's really not that hard. It's just a little bit of, like, basic information that you need to learn and you can be fine if you get excited by money. You want to learn more? Sure, go ahead. But for most people, like, it really doesn't take that much to get a financial foundation. So I definitely recommend that book. A lot of people have told us they love you need a budget. Just a really practical, like, way to create a budget. Keep track of your money. And then for women in particular, I've heard great things about her first 100K and Dow Jane. So those are both specifically geared towards helping women kind of take their heads out of the sand and become more financially independent and knowledgeable. So definitely check out any and all of those resources. And then our final general piece of advice that we want to give. We're sharing a lot more general advice than I thought we were going to, but this is all important. Okay, so our final piece is to create individual and shared money goals. So I think when it comes to money, most of us just have these really negative associations and connotations that come up. Like, we start feeling anxiety, we feel scarcity, lack, overwhelm. Right. And so it's very easy to have this negative relationship with money. And I think a really, really great thing that we were able to do pretty early in our relationship was to focus on some positive, exciting goals that we wanted to work towards. So our conversations about money weren't just all about like, oh, my God, we don't have enough and we have to save and we have to do.

Yeah. Or it's like, I can't. Like, we can't do this. This.

Yeah. So just being able to have positive things that you're working towards, things that you feel excited about. And those can be small, little things. Like, you know, I want to save up to buy this really cool jacket that I think I'm going to love. You know, it's going to be such a classic, timeless piece versus really big picture. Things like, you know, one of our huge financial bucket list goals is to be able to build our own house from scratch. That's obviously going to be a huge financial investment. But we both feel excited about the possibility of doing something like that. So it's like, you know, they can be small goals, they can be big goals, but having ways that you can create a positive, exciting relationship with money versus it all just being about rules and guidelines and things that you're not allowed to do.

But I think it's so important to have a range of these goals from stuff that's more short term to stuff that's more long term. Because I can say from experience that when you only have these ultra long term or ultra lofty goals, that can become a problem. Because if you are, you know, if you're like 20 years old and you're like, we need to have $5 million saved so that we can retire. And like, that's your goal, that's going to create a lot of pressure and problems because you're so not even close to that. Like, where do you even get started with that? And so it's like, at first it can kind of feel comforting. So you're like, okay, cool, I don't really need to worry about that for a while. But if that's your perspective, then like, you're not actually doing anything to make progress toward that, or you can use it to kind of beat yourself over the head, you know, maybe a couple years go by and you're like, oh God, I haven't made any progress towards this goal and what's wrong with me? So, but, so it's okay to have some big goals, but also make some short term goals that you can be working towards so that you can feel good about, about your progress. Because otherwise you're just going to be like, well, I don't even know where to start, or like, oh my God, what's wrong with me? I'm not making any progress towards this goal that I don't even know how to make progress towards. All right, so let's get into the questions now because we got some good ones. Yeah, help. Who's in the wrong here? In the past, my husband was judgmental of my spending. He would ask how much certain things cost and express disapproval, even if it was a reasonable price. So over time, I found myself hiding purchases from him more and more. He recently went through some statements and found a bunch of surprises. And now he's furious with me.

Ooh, this is such an interesting one.

And I think a Very. I think this is probably very, very common.

Oh, my gosh. We should have put up an Instagram poll that asks, like, have you ever hidden a purchase from your partner? Because I think this happens a lot, and sometimes it's not even a. Like, a really intense, like, oh, my gosh, let me make sure that they don't see it, and I'm gonna hide it and hide the bag. Sometimes it's just sort of like a. I'm just gonna grab that package really quick so my partner doesn't see it kind of thing.

Yeah. I mean, or. Or it's. I mean, I kind of got the. This vibe from this question that it wasn't so much of a. Like, oh, my God, I have to keep this from him. It's just, like, I don't want to deal with the disapproval thing. I don't want to deal with the question that he's gonna ask, because I know this is a reasonable purchase. Like, we need this for our family. This is totally reasonable. It's not even very expensive. But it's easier if I just don't mention it to him because he's gonna do that thing he does where he, like, picks it apart.

Yeah. Okay. I think this is a prime example of a situation where it would be so useful for this couple to have conversations about their money stories and, like, what is it that they're both bringing into their relationship? How do they think money should be handled? Because at the end of the day, like, hiding purchases from each other, like, that's not the way to go. Like, you can't be. You know, it's almost like when you're hiding something from your partner, you're also sort of trying to hide it from yourself. Like, I don't really want to look at how much I'm spending, that kind of thing. So, like, you've got to be open and have everything out on the table and be able to share with each other. Like, yeah, what do we. What do we think our money should be doing? Like, how should we be using money in our relationship? You know, one thing that comes to mind for me is that you're not going to ever get to a place where you agree 100% of the time on how money should be spent. Like, we're not trying to tell you. Everybody should sit down and say, like, okay, we're going to spend 3% of our money on clothing and 2% of our. You know, it's like, you don't need to get that granular about it. So one thing that can really Help. Like, once you've had those open and honest conversations, one thing that you can decide to do is that maybe every month you each get a certain amount of money that's just for your own discretionary spending, and you get to spend it however you want want, and you don't get to ask questions of each other or, like, pass any sort of judgments on each other.

Yeah, no judgment zone.

Oh, yeah, the no judgment zone. So even if it's something small, like, hey, we each get 20 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, you know, to do whatever we want with it, it can feel really nice to, like, have that freedom. And then sort of on the other end of that, another thing that you could do is maybe you set a specific amount where it's like, if I want to make a purchase over at Dollars, I have to check in with you first, and we have to have a conversation about it versus, like, you know, you guys don't need to drive each other nuts running every little purchase by each other. Like, oh, is it okay If I spend $4 to buy the Windex? Is it okay if I spend an extra $2 on, you know, this nice paper towel versus, like, the cheap? You know, you don't want to drive each other nuts like that. So maybe it's just some sort of conversation about, yeah, okay, as long as it's under a hundred dollars, whatever, do what you want to do. But if it's over that, we have to have a quick conversation.

Yeah. I mean, the other thing that comes to mind with this is, you know, it sounds like for this person, there was a time in the past or many times in the past where, you know, the husband was pretty judgmental and expressed some serious disapproval, and that was a bit traumatic for this person. Like, it was something that still. Still feels yucky. And, you know, this person is, you know, not wanting to experience that again and therefore, you know, making certain decisions about how they do or don't disclose purchases to their partner. I think that it is super important to be able to discuss what happened in the past and how you're feeling about it, because the partner may not be aware the things that he says are hurtful or are, you know, causing grief for this person. So, yeah, I just. I wonder if they've talked about it before. I wonder if the partner is aware of, you know, how. How the person is feeling. It feels like there's some unprocessed feelings here, for sure.

Yeah. And we just don't know the full story. Like, they're, you know, the Person's saying, my husband disapproved of this, but it's like, well, what's the story behind that? Like, maybe he's thinking, gosh, I really have this goal for us to be able to buy our own home. And so I want us to live as frugally as possibly, you know, for this next temporary period of time, because I'm trying to store away as much money for a down payment, you know, like, it could be something much more kind than that rather than just like, hey, jerk, you shouldn't be spending that much money on whatever you just bought, you know?

Yeah, I would have spent less if I was doing that.

Yeah. A lot of times, like, we're not trying to be assholes with each other. It's just that there's like, more going on that we haven't really shared openly with each other.

Yeah, I mean that. And that's where the money goals that we talked about earlier on come into play and the importance of sharing them. And then ideally, in a long term relationship, getting on the same page about what those goals are for you, or figuring out where there's overlap or like, or goals that seem like they're at odds with each other and figuring out, okay, does it feel like we, we could accomplish both of these, or do we need some kind of compromise or do we need to decide if we change some of these? Because yeah, if you know what the goals are, then hopefully you can each be making decisions, you know, money decisions, you know, spending money in a way that is in more alignment or integrity with the goals that you have.

Okay, here's the next question. My husband makes about 80% of our household income and provides the insurance. I essentially work to pay for daycare for our two children. We've talked about me staying home because the cost would be the same, but I enjoy my job. So basically he pays for everything and it can cause a lot of tension. I feel guilty spending money because I didn't earn it. A big issue is health related costs. I have an autoimmune disorder that leads to lots of medical bills. He pays them, but definitely makes a fuss over how much they cost. And it often leads to fights and me feeling guilty. But I also can't help that I'm sick and need maintenance care. I don't think anyone would like the alternative of me losing my colon and needing a poop bag for life. This is a hot topic in our house. Okay, a lot to unpack.

A lot to unpack in this one.

This question boggled my mind, but let's address it in two separate parts. So first, let's address the perspective of my partner makes more of the money. Like he pays for everything. I feel guilty because I didn't earn it. What do you think about that?

Well, first of all, I can say I can totally understand this feeling. I've been here. I think a lot of people have been here before. I mean, especially in the United States. We have this idea drilled into us about self reliance and earning our own money, being able to support ourselves. And it can feel really important that I'm earning this money for me and I can support myself with it.

Yeah. I mean, we each had periods of our relationship where the other partner was the primary breadwinner. So when I went back to grad school, I didn't work for for a while. And you were like, I've got it. I'll take care of us financially. And then when we moved to Berlin, I said, okay, I've got us financially. You cannot work for a while and figure out what your next move is.

And that was really hard.

It was very hard for both of us to be in the position of like, even though it was a conscious decision we were making of like, okay, my partner's taking care of things for a little bit, they're holding it down. Like, it was still very hard for us to feel. Yeah. Like, we both felt guilty about, like, oh, I'm being a financial burden. I'm not bringing anything to the table. Like, it was hard. So it sounds like this couple has already had a conversation where they've agreed, like, hey, this is what works best for us and our family at this point in time.

Yeah, like, they've agreed this arrangement.

It's not like the person sending in the question was like, I've just decided to be lazy and do nothing and my partner would do it all. Like, this was a conscious decision both partners made.

Made. Yeah. I mean, and they've also made a conscious decision that this person works to pay for daycare versus staying home and not paying for daycare, even though that's kind of a wash in terms of. In terms of money. Yeah. They have decided that this is the arrangement that works for them and that they want to be together.

So I think both of us can say from experience that, like, this just is challenging. I don't think you're gonna get to a place where you never feel this sense of like, guilt or imbalance. You're gonna be thinking about it. But I think in those moments, for yourself and with your partner, it's really Important to keep reminding yourselves, like, this is the decision that we've made. If we wanna change the decision and we wanna have some sort of different financial arrangement, we can do that at any point. But this is what we've decided for right now. And therefore, like the money that we are bringing in, like, it's our money. This is our shared money.

It's. It is our money. We bring in different amounts of it, but it is our money.

I think in most relationships we just have this idea that once you get into a relationship, you're just supposed to combine finances, but there are so many options. Like, if you want to combine finances, you like that idea of like, what's yours is mine, what's mine is yours, great, go for it. But that's not the only way to do it. Um, and I think we have a couple of other questions. Sort of get into this a little bit. But, but you can keep some money separate. You can keep all of your money separate. Like, there are a lot of different arrangements to do. So that might be a conversation to have. Like, hey, do we like this approach that we're doing right now or do we wanna make any sort of adjustments to it? But I think the bottom line is that if you have made a conscious decision that you're sharing money and that you are gonna break down, you know, work responsibilities in this way, then yes, you are still sometimes gonna feel guilty. Those feelings are going to come up, but you give yourself that reminder of, hey, this is the decision that we've made and I don't need to be feeling this feeling.

Yeah. And therefore, I think you also need to adjust both of your language around how this works. Like the person writing in said he pays for everything. He does not pay for everything. You both. Sorry, you collectively. Yeah, we. That makes a little more sense. We pay for everything. Everything. I can just tell the way the entire question is written, there is a underlying assumption baked in that it's like it's his money that he gives to you sometimes or your problems that he is paying for sometimes. And if that's the language that you are both using around it, then of course it's going to create tension. Of course you're going to feel guilty around it. So I would challenge you first to try to try to say it in a different way, to start saying it in a different way. And over time you might start feeling it in a different way.

Okay, so let's get to the second part of the question. Dealing with health related costs.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just going to come out and say it, this is fucked up. Your partner has a health issue. I mean, in this case, it sounds like probably it's a health issue that, that you've always known about, that this partner has always had. You got into a relationship with this partner knowing that they have a certain health issue and there are bills associated with it. You cannot hold that over their head. You can't shame them into their autoimmune disorder going away. I mean, I guess you could shame them into foregoing medical care. And. And is that what you want? Like, so if you find yourself doing this, like, where is that coming from? Is it that you want them? Like, are you feeling resentful that they have this health issue? Are you wishing that they would seek less medical care? Or is there. Or is. Or. Or are you just doing something that's kind of fucked up? Do you need to examine what is going on with you? And I think you do.

Yeah. I mean, bottom line, you cannot make somebody feel guilty for being. Being sick and needing medical care. Like, somebody who's going through something like this, like, it's not fun for them. It's not exciting. It's not like, you know, oh, I'm just going on a fun shopping spree. I'm doing some online shopping for more autoimmune disorder care. Like, no, this is awful. And I'm sure that this person would rather be healthy and not having to be spending any of this money on their care. But I think anything health related, you just cannot make your partner feel bad about it. What you can say, like, it is okay to be financially stressed. And because, you know, especially in this country, our medical system is so fucked up, people have to pay overwhelming costs for medical care. So it's okay to be scared, to be anxious, like, oh, my gosh, like, I don't know how we're gonna pay for that. This month I'm feeling so scared. So it's okay to say that, but you need to make it really clear to your partner. Like, your health is of the utmost importance to me, and I will go to the end of the earth to do whatever I can to help you feel healthy again. Sometimes it does scare me, and sometimes the bills that we get are overwhelming. But I know that this is not your fault, and I am willing to pay these. We together are going to pay these.

I know.

Look at.

I slipped into the language. I called you. Yeah, I was gonna say that that's. That is the key thing, the language there. We are going to pay for this. We are not to pay for this if it's like. Because there's a huge difference between saying, oh, my God, I'm feeling really scared about the bill that I am getting and that I'm going to have to pay for versus I'm feeling scared about this bill that we are getting and how we are going to pay for it. Like, it's a collective thing. It's not like, oh, I'm doing this out of the goodness of my heart.

Yeah. Okay, let's move on to the next one.

All right. So I'm the primary shopper in our family for necessities, food, clothing, et cetera, etc. I take on the mental load of these tasks and do what needs to be done to keep our home running smoothly. But my partner always complains about my spending. I try to explain to them that my spending will be higher because I do the shopping for our family, but it still creates problems. Ah, this. I mean, this sounds a bit like the last one almost, where it's like you're thinking about my spending versus your spending when you guys should be thinking about our spending. I mean, I'm assuming that you have. Have combined your finances. If you're kind of. If you're talking about, like, how one person is spending for the family and the other is. I'm not sure what the other person's doing, but the other is complaining that somehow you're spending too much money on the stuff that they all need.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's not. It's not that there's one partner who's just going nuts, like online shopping and finding all this fun stuff for themselves. It's like, yeah, of course I'm spending more because I'm the one who does the grocery shopping and I go to the drugstore and I get the kids clothes and I pay for their act, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I think in this case, yeah, the language is really important. Making it clear to your partner like, this is not my spending. I happen to be the one who is wielding the credit card in that moment. But I. This is spending for our family. It's for us. It's for, you know, the two of us together, our whole family, whatever.

And if you don't like that, if you disagree with some of that, that you are welcome to get more involved. Maybe we can go on a couple shopping trips together so that you can experience, like, what it is, like the decision. See the decisions that are being made firsthand. Or you can even try your hand at, you know, the shopping or whatever for a couple weeks and see how that goes for you. But it's, it's not fair to be like, oh, well, you're just doing that on your own. And I don't like the way that you're doing it, but I'm not close enough to it that I can make any, give any real advice other than that's too much money.

Yeah. So, I mean, it might be the opportunity to redistribute the mental load and responsibilities. Maybe you do decide, like, okay, it's going to be my partner's job to do the grocery shopping or, you know, any other certain task. I also think it could be really useful for these two to sit down together and to make a budget, you know, and to talk about, okay, how much money do we want to spend? Where? Let's take a look at like the last six months of expenses and see, like, how have we been spending our money? Because you can definitely have conversations about, hey, it does seem like our grocery bill is really creeping up. Let's take a look at like what we're buying and see if there are any ways for us to cut back on it. So you can absolutely do that. But it's together as a team rather than just complaining to your partner of you're spending too much money. Okay, here's the last question. I'm the breadwinner of our family, while my partner makes much less. We split costs on everything. But how do we make make it fair? They want to feel like they're pulling their weight, but also don't want to contribute beyond their means. And I don't want to be saddled with a disproportionate amount of contributions just because I make more.

Interesting.

Okay, so when it comes to shared expenses, I think that there are two general categories of approaches. So either you share everything. 50, 50. It's just like, yeah, it doesn't matter how much you make or how much I make. Like if we buy a hundred dollar TV, can you buy a TV for $100?

I don't know, maybe it's maybe a small one.

I'm really struggling to come up with examples of like money and some specific item. Okay, you buy a really small hundred dollar TV, so either you can say we're both gonna spend $50 on this TV. It doesn't matter if you make $100,000 and I make $50,000. Like we're both, both sharing the cost of this TV. 50, 50. Or you can do a proportionate type of thing where you say, you know, okay, if you make this much more than I do. Like, we're both going to contribute 30% of our income into this shared pot and buy things out of that. So the amount, let's say again, like, Xander's making way more money than I am. So the amount that he's putting into the pot is going to be bigger than mine, but the percentage is going to be the same.

So I guess in your example of like 100 versus 50k, I'm pretty sure I'm just doing the math in my head. It would be like, like, like I would contribute 66, 67, and you would contribute 33. 33, yes.

Good math.

So. So that I'm contributing twice as much as she does because I earn twice as much as she does.

So again, it's like there's no one right way to do it. Everybody can do different things in their relationships. But I think you, you know, you have to talk about the pros and cons of each. I think it's is tricky for somebody, you know, if you have a big discrepancy in how much money you're making. Like, you're going to have to make adjustments to the kinds of things that you do together because one partner is going to be able to afford way they're going to be able to afford the big $200 TV, whereas maybe you could only afford the $50 TV on your own. So that's, you know, the drawback of that approach. But the positive is that you feel like you're both contributing equally to the relationship. So with the second approach though, the drawback is like, yeah, one person's gonna be contributing a whole lot more objectively, dollars wisely. Dollars wise. So that might feel kind of weird or a little unfair, but the fairness is that you're both contributing proportionately. So things are gonna feel equally affordable or unaffordable to each of you.

Yeah, I mean, and if both of those are feeling like, oh God, this, this doesn't feel good, of course, you can consider just combining your finances entirely so that it's basically like, well, there's a hundred dollar TV. We're going to spend $100 out of this account where just all of our money is in it. And it's not like it's my money versus your money, it's just the money that we have.

Yeah. So I think just being able to have that conversation with each other and say, like, look, there are pros and cons of each approach. There's no one right way to do this. Like, we're going to have moments in our relationship where money feels stressful and uncomfortable. But like, if we look at these different options, which is the one that we would rather go with. But I also think one of the reasons why money gets so complicated is that it, it actually is very complicated. Like, how much money we earn is dependent on so many different factors. And we could have big conversations about like societal injustices and racial issues and gender discrimination. Like, it's not like we all go out into the world and have the exact same earning power.

Right.

And like, that can be really uncomfortable when you into relationships with somebody who's maybe had really different opportunities presented to them or they started from a much more challenging position than you started from. Like, I think we've been taught especially in this country that like, you know, just work hard and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and everyone will succeed.

Or you're, you're worth as much as you make or something.

Exactly. Yeah. And like, that's just not true. So again, we could go on a whole other tangent about this, but I, I think just being able to recognize that there are such bigger factors at play than just like, you know, hey, we should be earning the exact same amount of money and actually going more off of what you said that like our value is in how much money we earn and can bring in. Like going back to some of the other questions about where it sounded like, you know, there were partners who were agreeing to be stay at home partners. Like, that's also a value that you're contributing to the family, you know, of.

Like a huge value.

Yeah, I'm staying at home, I'm taking care of the kids, I'm, you know, handling the mental load, I'm keeping things running smoothly. That's a value too. So even if you're on paper bringing in much less money than your partner or no money, like, you're still contributing a value. We actually have a whole YouTube video.

Called something like, it's like, should stay at home parents get paid?

Something like that. We will link to that in the show notes. But there's some really interesting data about that. So.

And how much, you know, if you were to convert that to a salary, like how much that work is worth, and it might surprise you, you might be out earning. I'm putting that in huge air quotes. Out earning because it's idea. I mean the idea that like, yeah, earning almost implies like you are some value. But yeah, you might be surprised that your stay at home partner might be out earning you.

Oh yeah, we'll put the Link to check that out. But, yeah, those are our best tips for navigating money in relationships. Obviously, this is a very common, complex topic. Like, I feel like we could have. We had so many other questions that we could have gotten to, and I think we could have done even deeper dives on all of them because there's just so much to unpack here. But I hope the general tips that we gave you were helpful. This is definitely something that should be like an open and ongoing conversation in relationships. This is not a, like, one and done conversation. This is like, you know, every month, you and your partner at least should be checking in and just having a conversation about where are we? Where do we want to be? How are we feeling about it? Like, it's just such an evocative topic. And if you want a little bit more support with the mental load aspect of finances, we've mentioned that phrase mental load a few times. We have a really great mental load workbook that really walks you through exactly how to separate the mental load in your relationship in a way that's going to feel fair and sustainable. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes, too.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about what to do if your partner does not seem to care about your pleasure. We can't end like that.

Yeah, try.

Try. Wow. Vanessa. Vanessa is so intrigued by next week's episode.

I don't know where that came from.

Wow.

All right, you sound.

You close us out then.

I'm. I'm really looking forward to this episode because I've been getting fired up by some of the DMS that we've been getting about this. But, yeah, it was. That was a strange noise. I'm sorry.

All right, so why don't you choose a new noise, phrase or word to end us on?

Can't wait. See you next week.

Bye.