Episode 65: How To Overcome Sexual Shame With Our 7-Step Process

You often find, oh, yeah, no, I don't have a problem with this. I don't feel any shame about this. And then he started to unpack it and you're like, shit. Actually, I do.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today, we are talking about sex and shame.

Ooh, big topic. How have we not recorded an episode on this? It's taken us 65 episodes to get around to this one.

It's a big one. I mean, I think because it's so big, it's like, how do you boil down such a huge topic that so many people are struggling with into a single podcast episode? But I think we've done it.

We're going to do it. We're going to show you.

Hopefully, we've done it. So we turned to Instagram and asked people, you know, have you ever dealt with sexual shame? Are you currently dealing with it? 74% said that they have dealt with it in the past, and 30% said that they're currently in a season of life where they're feeling a lot of shame and they're feeling shame like, like before, during, after sex. And even when they're not doing anything sexual at all, it's just like, the shame is there.

But I would venture a guess that this number is a little under inflated.

Under inflated.

Deflated. There we go. I. I would guess that there are actually more than 30% of people that are currently feeling some kind of shame around sex. Because the interesting thing about shame is that we very often rationalize it into something else in our mind. And I think, you know, like, if you've ever been in therapy, you often find, oh, yeah, no, I don't have a problem with this. I don't feel any shame about this. And then he start to unpack it and you're like, shit, Actually, I do. So I would guess this number is actually a lot higher. 30% of people who are like, shamelessly, like, yep, I feel ashamed about this.

Shamelessly ashamed.

They are shamelessly ashamed. And I bet you there's probably another 20, maybe even 30% of people that are unknowingly feeling shame.

Shame's interesting too, because it's also like the beginning of this business. I mean, if, if anybody has ever heard me talk about my backstory of creating this business, it really traces back to my parents trying to give me the talk when I was like 11 or 12 years old. And basically what my parents said was, if you have any questions about, you know, sex, you can ask us. And I remember at that, at that age, I knew that what they really meant was playing please, for the love of God, do not ask us anything. We don't want to talk about it. Like, do not say anything about sex.

I mean, especially. They can't even say the word out loud. Like, they literally end up having to whisper it. Or it kind of goes unspoken, like, you know what we're talking about and therefore, you know that we don't really want to talk about this and neither do you. Right?

Yeah. So I had no idea that sex therapy could be my career at that time. But I was really struck in that moment by how ashamed and embarrassed my parents were and then just feeling like, gosh, like, why? Why can't we talk about sex more openly and honestly? So that's really, like, where this whole business came from. So today we want to really just deconstruct shame. So we asked our audience to share with us, like, what are the specific things that you feel ashamed about when it comes to sex? So today we're going to be sharing some of the most popular answers to that question. And most importantly, we are going to give you our step by step shame busting framework.

But before we start shame busting, we are going to bust out the review of the week. Okay, let's bust this review. Truly life changing. Vanessa and Xander are incredible. The knowledge I've gained this past year has truly changed me as a person. I know my worth, my relationship is stronger, and I'm just super thankful from the bottom of my heart. Okay. Two of those words were emojis. That's why I was struggling. I wasn't struggling with the heart, in case you were wondering. The fin down pointing. So that's good. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for making waves, moving mountains, rocking the boat and being a light in the world. Hats off to you. Wow, so many emojis. Like, half those words were emojis. And I. And I read it pretty fluently.

You did great job.

I'm patting myself on the back.

You're getting so good at reading emojis. I'm Very proud of you.

I know. Can't, but can't bust me. Wait, what? Oh, my God. What am I trying to say?

Oh, you've caught my disease of not.

Being able to remember. Yeah, I can't.

What are you trying to say? Like, can't keep you down.

Yeah, I can't hold you down. Can't hold. No. Can't hold me down. Can't, like, I don't know. Make me not know what it is. My brain broke.

Can't make me not know what it is. Yeah, okay, we're just gonna move on from that one. I will say, though, I have to call att to the fact that you and I both did a terrible job of reading emojis in last week's episode, because we. In the review of the week, there was. At the very end of the review, I think you read it as, like, woman graduating unicorn puppy.

Oh, yes.

And the person who wrote that review reached out to us on Instagram, as they should, because they won, and they were like, you guys didn't get it. It was supposed to be, whoops. Certified horn Dog.

Oh.

Which any regular, loyal listener of the podcast will remember. Yeah. Was a little inside joke that we had. Our team even made it into a sweatshirt for me. So I have a Certified Horn Dog sweatshirt. So I'm really disappointed in both of us that we didn't catch that. But now we have the chance to rectify it and share. That's what it was supposed to be. Certified Horn Dog. And, you know, we keep talking about, like, oh, we have to come up with a name for pillow Talks listeners. So maybe that's like, our little Pillow Talks club. The Certified Horn Dogs.

Certified horn dogs. I love it. And by the way, what I was trying to say was, can't stump me. And for some reason in my head, I thought that stump, like, started with a B. So I was like, can't bust me. I'm just so excited to start busting Shame.

Okay, I can't stump. That's not even a saying, though. That's just.

Yeah, you can't stump me with the. With the emojis. Before, it was like, stump Xander with the emojis, and now Xander's an emoji king.

Okay, well, let's reel it back and just say thank you again for the person who left this review. Reviews mean so much to the podcast. It's the best way for us to grow and reach new people. So if you have ever learned something from an episode, if we have ever made you laugh, if you're in on the inside jokes. We would be so grateful if you could take 60 seconds of your time to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You go to the main podcast page and then scroll, scroll to the bottom and that's where you leave the review. And once you do that, you are entered into our weekly giveaway every week going forward. You don't have to do anything else. And if you are picked as the review of the week, then you can DM us on Instagram anessamarintherapy. Ask us a question and we will give you a personalized coaching session as our thank you for taking the time to leave the review. All right, so let's start talking about shame. So first we went to Instagram and asked our community, what is it exactly that you feel ashamed of? Because I think shame can feel like such a big, heavy topic. A lot of us just don't even want to acknowledge that we're feeling it, and we don't want to get into the details and the specifics of it. So we really wanted people to tell us, like, what exactly do you feel ashamed about? So we're going to go over some of the most common answers. Big one was just shame around pleasure in general. So experiencing pleasure, asking for pleasure, masturbation, but also things like not being able to orgasm. Like, I don't know how to experience pleasure in the right way or the way that I'm supposed to.

Yeah. Like, I shouldn't want too much pleasure, but I also should be able to feel it. And when I don't feel the pleasure that I think I'm not supposed to have, then all of a sudden it's a problem. It kind of turns into a. It boxes you in.

Oh, shame.

Yeah.

I mean, shame absolutely boxes us in and often doesn't make a lot of logical sense if we really take the time to think through. But it can still be so powerful.

Yeah. All right, so the next big one was admitting that you want sex or that you're feeling turned on. So, like, we heard from a lot of female partners who feel shame for having a higher sex drive than their male partner or. Or for feeling ashamed of their sex drive being way lower than their partner.

It's like, you can't win. The only way to not feel shame is if you have the exact same sex drive as your partner.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

But I can speak to, like, the. Being a woman in a relationship with a. Like, I've had a lot of periods of my own life where I felt ashamed for having a higher sex drive than a Male partner, because it's not something that we really ever talk about that much. There's always the stereotype that, like, men always want it more. So that was a big source of shame for me for a long time.

In addition to feeling shame about just admitting that you want sex, there's also another layer of admitting to your partner what it is that you want, specifically, like, feeling like you shouldn't have certain desires or certain fantasies or whatever.

Mm. There was also another huge category around, like, my body in general. A lot of people pointed out, like, I feel a lot of shame about my body. A lot of vulva owners in particular, calling out, like, the way my vulva looks, smells, tastes. People called out bodily functions like queefing, farting during sex, even, like, getting sweaty, that kind of thing. We heard from penis owners, very concerned about penis size, feeling like they weren't up to par, like, not big enough.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like body confidence could be its whole own episode. Like, it's a. It is a separate topic from this. And it is also a similar topic in terms of sex. Like, there's a whole range of body confidence stuff from stuff that's totally non sexual to very sexual things. All right, so another big category was just exploring new things, whether that is kink or toys or opening up the relationship. And so I think this is like, you know, having these sort of internal desires or thoughts or fantasies around like. Like something that you want to try or something that feels really central to who you are, but then not feeling like you can share it or it's not. Okay.

People also talked a lot about feeling shame around kind of this general idea of, like, the rules that were taught around sex. So some people said, you know, I was taught that premarital sex was a sin, but then I had it. So I feel shame around that. We had a lot of women who are in relationships with men calling out, like, I was taught that I'm supposed to fulfill, like, my wifely duties. I'm supposed to have sex with him whenever he wants and, you know, satisfy him, make sure he's taken care of. And there were even people talking about, like, how many people you're allowed to sleep with, like, the term body count, which I recently learned you don't know.

Yeah, I've never heard that phrase. I've never talked about it in that context. Maybe it came out after, you know, my kind of high school, college years.

So your body count, once I started.

Once I stopped racking up the bodies.

Is a crude way of talking about how Many partners you've had. So a lot of people felt shame. And honestly, on all sides of it, some people felt shame for having a low body count. Some people felt shame for, you know, feeling like they'd slept with too many. Some people felt shame about their number in relation to their partner's number. So just a whole lot of shame around how many people we've slept with.

And then finally there's a lot of shame when it comes to being queer or having queer thoughts and questioning your identity, who it is that you are fantasizing about, what it is that you want in the bedroom.

Next, we asked our audience to share with us, like how shame feels in the moment. Like, what is that experience of having shame? And so here are some of the answers that we heard. Paralyzing. I completely shut down.

I hate myself internally, which leads me to not want to be touched.

Physical pain in my chest feeling perverted, extreme sadness.

Unworthy of genuine love.

Like everyone knows and is watching me embarrassing.

A horrible empty feeling and heart pounding anxiety.

Oof. Which one of those have you ever related with?

Yeah, I can definitely relate with some of these, like the, the sort of paralyzing like shutdown reaction. I've definitely felt that in moments where I feel like, where I felt like I've been on the spot and especially around sort of questions of like, oh, what's your fantasy? Or like, let's try something new. And I just like, I have this reaction of like, oh, well, it wasn't my idea initially and what does it mean about me that I didn't already want this thing and I better just shut down. So I've definitely had that experience. And also just like that horrible empty feeling. I think that's come up for me, you know, in situations where I felt like my sex drive isn't up to par. Like, yeah, I, I feel like I'm not enough.

Yeah, I mean, it's a really intense experience. You know, I think pretty much all of us have probably had some sort of experience of it feeling heavy, scary, paralyzing, you know, whatever it is for us in particular. So that's why we really wanted to make sure that we gave you a step by step game plan for deconstructing sexual shame.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's so key because I know in my experience when I have had these feelings before, it's really just felt like there's no way out. Like, you know, in the case I was just talking about of like feeling like my sex drive isn't high enough or high enough Relative to you or. Or whatever the case may be, you have that feeling and you go, okay, well, like, I want my sex drive to be higher, but I feel, like, really empty inside, really embarrassed, really ashamed. Like, how can it be higher if I'm feeling like this? Like, the last thing I want is sex when I'm feeling like this. And so it can feel, like, totally hopeless. It can feel like there's no way out because you know what it is that you need. Or I thought I knew what I needed in order to fix the problem. I put fix in quotes because, you know, in my mind it was, oh, well, you just need to have more sex. You just need to have a higher sex drive. That's the way you get out of this. But how the hell do you do that when you're feeling the way that you are? So I wish back then that I had had this step by step process. It would have felt a lot less hopeless.

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing about shame is that it feels so big and overwhelming that it feels like we have no other option other than just to feel it. But the good news is that there is a way out, and we are gonna give you the specific plan to get out of it.

Let's do it.

Okay. So step one is to forgive.

Mmm.

Interesting, right?

Yeah, very interesting.

So one of the worst things about shame is that it makes us. Us feel guilty for even feeling it in the first place. So it's like, not only do you have to deal with the shame itself, which, as we've just covered, feels really shitty, but you also feel shame for being ashamed.

This is like. This is like, like meta feelings, right? Like, having feelings about your feelings.

Wow. In sync there. So the first thing that we want you to do is to recognize that shame is not your fault. We've got to, like, depersonalize it here. You weren't born feeling ashamed of sex. You were taught to be. That's so important. I'm going to say it again. You were not born feeling ashamed of sex. Nobody comes out of the womb, like, already thinking that, oh, this thing that made my life possible is actually terrible and shameful and I should never do it. Right? Like, we were all taught throughout the course of our lives and honestly continue to be taught to be ashamed of sex. So for us to recognize, like, it is not my fault that I feel this way. And on top of that, to also recognize that you are not alone in feeling shame. Like, we are all collectively dealing with sexual shame, whether it's something that's really, like, alive and present for us in the moment or something we've dealt with in the past or we're gonna have to deal with in the future. And Xander and I included, like, we have both battled shame. We continue to battle shame. So I think one of the other really nasty things about shame is that it, Isol. It makes us feel alone. Like, we're the only person going through this. We're broken in some horrible way.

Yeah. Because it feels like, oh, we couldn't possibly tell anybody else what we're going through because that would be shameful to admit the shame. So, like, the only way to deal with it is to hold it inside, but holding it inside just makes it worse.

Absolutely. So that's what we mean here by forgiving yourself. Like, really being able to recognize it's not your fault for internalizing shame. And we're going to get into how that happens in the upcoming steps. But just to really be able to appreciate, like, there is no way that you can grow up not feeling ashamed about sex or your body, like, in one way or another. It's just impossible with all the messages, all the negative messages that we all receive. So being able to have that kindness and that gentleness and grace towards yourself and say, like, you know what? This is not my fault. It's such a great first step for really taking down that shame.

Yeah. This is so powerful because I just think back to, you know, like, my battle with shame, especially around sex drive, when, you know, our relationship was. Was fairly new. And, like, I just, like, I thought it was all my fault. I thought something was wrong with me, and I didn't. I didn't want. But, like, I thought something was wrong with me, but I didn't want to have to acknowledge that something was really wrong with me or, like. And in reality, I didn't want to have to acknowledge that I was feeling ashamed of something because I wanted to see myself as this, you know, cool person, that cool dude. Cool, cool dude that, you know, didn't have any shame around sex. Like, here I am, like, dating a sex therapist, getting married to a sex therapist, and, oh, God, maybe I have some of my own shame coming up. And so in those moments, because I couldn't acknowledge to myself what was going on, like, I feel like we went through all this really elaborate stuff in order for me to avoid confronting my feelings of shame. And it was, you know, all this stuff around, like, oh, well, I just need to be able to naturally, like, want sex. And so we have to do it the way that We've always done it, and, like, we can't really talk about it because that makes me feel ashamed. And, like, I just feel like I just. Just had us jump through all these hoops where it was like, let's just, like, avoid the thorny topic of shame and try everything else, hoping that maybe it will work, when in reality, like, when you are feeling that shame, like, you have to address the shame. Like, it is not going to just leave voluntarily.

It is not. You gotta kick it out. Okay, so let's get into step two, and I forgot to mention, we are also making you a little cheat sheet for all these steps. We're covering a good number of them, and they're all important. So we're going to put in the show notes a link to download the cheat sheet for free. So you can always check that out if you're not in a place where you can, like, take copious notes right now. Ooh, you like that copious.

I actually, I wonder what percentage of people listen to our podcast taking copious notes. I'm just. I just have this hilarious picture in my head of someone, like, at a desk. Like, you know, seriously, writing notes are note takers.

I like to take notes. It helps me remember things better and process it.

You're an Amy Santiago?

A little bit, yes. I don't have all the binders, but I do like taking notes.

Brooklyn 99 reference. In case anyone is like, who the hell is Amy Santiago? That's not your name.

Okay, so step two is to investigate. So we kind of mentioned this a minute ago when we were talking about the different types of shame that people feel. So a lot of us just feel shame, and we don't take any time to, like, really pick it apart. So when we put that question box up on Instagram and we ask, like, what do you feel ashamed about? We got a lot of responses that were just like. Like, I don't know, everything. Like, I just don't even know how to describe it. It just feels like it's all shameful.

Yeah, I mean, this makes so much sense that this is the next step after the last one. Like, the. In the last one, it's like, in order to do the. The forgiving step, you have to kind of acknowledge, okay, yeah, I'm feeling shame, and that's okay. And so, you know, once you get to that point, you're like, okay, yeah, I've got sexual shame. Like, we got so many people that come to us and, like, DMS and question boxes and stuff, and they're just like, oh, my God, I have sexual shame. What do I do? And it's like, okay, that's a really, really broad question. Like, you got to whittle that down a little bit in order to, you know, unfortunately, there's not just, like, a prescription for, oh, you got sexual shame. Take this.

Well, there is. It's the seven step plan. This is a prescription.

Oh, okay. All right. So then, yeah, I'm prescribing you step two now, which is to investigate.

Okay, so in this step, what you're gonna do is you're gonna take the time to think about what is it exactly that you feel ashamed of or ashamed about? And you're gonna ask yourself, like, what are the specific messages that you received around it? So you might start kind of broad at first, like, I feel shame about pleasure. And then ask yourself, okay, but what are the specific messages that you were taught around pleasure? And then is that from, like, just society or the media? From your religion, maybe from your parents, school, your friends? So you want to take the time to identify, like, the specific belief and where it came from. If you can identify it, sometimes it's just going to be like, I don't know, I just picked it up at some point. But if you do have a specific memory of, like, oh, my parents taught me that sex was just for making babies. You're not supposed to enjoy it. You know, you want to jot that down. So here's where you can be an Amy Santiago and take some notes. It actually genuinely is really helpful to get it all out out onto a page in front of you so you can see, like, the specific beliefs where you think they came from. So, like, make a list. Your sexual shame inventory.

He might say, interesting hearing you describe that, actually. Like, I. I had my own little flashback about my own sexual shame.

Okay.

I mentioned earlier, I've been talking a bit about, like, feeling ashamed of. Of having a lower sex drive a certain point in our relationship. But, you know, I also mentioned and sort of feeling some shame around, like, not having a bunch of wild fantasies that, like, I want to try out. I kind of have this flashback of just, like, remembering through the tail end of elementary school and, like, early middle school when, like, kids are thrown around terms on the playground and, like, saying stuff. And, like, I was the oldest sibling in my family. I have a sister. So, like, we didn't have any other boy siblings. It definitely didn't have any older brothers. I feel like it was always the kids that had, like, a bunch of older brothers that were, like, ahead of the curve with all the terminology, because, you know, like, they got older boys who are talking about this stuff pretty vocally. Oh, and also, like, I wasn't allowed to watch TV as a kid, so I had this, like, one massive channel of, like, or, like, medium, where I would have probably been hearing terms, you know, alluded to in TV and maybe started to pick up on things. Things. And, like, I just remember always feeling so behind the curve when it came to sex, because it was like, kids were always talking about stuff, and I felt like, oh, it's for sure not safe to be like, oh, hey, what's that? Yeah, explain it to me in plain English, please. And so just always feeling like I was totally behind the curve. And I was always just struggling to figure out what is it that this kid was talking about. And I would. It would be, like, two years later, I would, like, figure out what a term meant and be like, oh, my God. Like, that's what so and so was talking about back in sixth grade. And so just feeling like I was always behind, desperately trying to figure out what these things mean. I didn't have any time to actually, like, I don't know, be, like, having my own fantasies coming up or anything. It was just, like, just this constant playing of catch up. So I'm glad that you. You spelled that out for me and gave me that chance for reflection.

You're very welcome. Well, let's move you into step three, then, all.

Let's go.

Step three. I know.

I am the. I'm the patient.

This is Xander's therapy session here.

Yeah. All right.

Okay, babe. So step three is that we're gonna celebrate. So I want you to take the time to recognize the messages that you have already ignored or overcome, whether it was something that was told to us directly or something we, like, just picked up on. Kind of like you picked up on this sense of being left behind. But out of all of the messages that we get, we don't let every single one of those messages dictate our entire sex life. Like, we still make different choices. We do different things, despite what we were taught. So what I want you to do here is to, like, to recognize that you have agency. And you've probably already made decisions or taken certain actions that go against these shameful messages that you were taught. So this step is all about celebrating all. Like, I am not powerless. I have agency. I've already done some things to, like, work past that shame or kind of in the face of that shame that I was taught.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can think about myself. Like, I can definitely celebrate the fact that, you know, I received a lot of messages as, you know, a kid and teenager growing up in the 90s and early 2000s. Like, a lot of. A lot of alpha bro shit, a lot of. Of just not having much respect for women. And, you know, I'm sure that there were times when I was younger where maybe I participated in some of that, like, banter or language, like when talking with the guys, but it never felt authentic for me, like, to actually behave in that way, like, with women. That's something where, like, yeah, I just. I ignored so many mess, like, society, societal messages and attitudes around, like, you know, boys being boys when it came, when it comes to sex, just because, yeah, it was like, yeah, that. That just doesn't resonate with me. I know people are talking about this, but it just doesn't feel right.

Yeah.

And, you know, I. I chose to act and behave differently.

Yeah. I guess a big one that comes up for me is, you know, I grew up really thinking that masturbation was wrong and kind of gross. I don't remember being ever directly told that, but I think it was just. Just that was one of those things that I kind of, like, picked up on society and the media in general, like, female masturbation, especially when we were growing up, like, that was very icky and, like, not something. There was no open discussion of that. It was like, oh, God, no. Girls don't do that.

I mean, I def. Like, probably until, like, halfway through college, like, definitely wondered a lot, like, do girls really do this?

So my win is that I did. Did start masturbating, and I masturbated my way into having many orgasms.

I was about to say furiously. She masturbated furiously.

Furiously. No, I masturbated my way too many orgasms. So that's a huge win for me that, like, I could be picking up on these, you know, overall negative messages about it, but still decide, you know what, I'm gonna explore my own body anyways. And sure, like, I have felt some shame about it over the years, but I didn't let that shame. Shame control me. I made a different decision. And that is a huge thing to celebrate. So I bet that everyone listening can identify at least one thing that you've done that flies in the face of those shameful beliefs that you were taught. So there's one bit of evidence that you can find that shame does not have complete control over you. You have power. You have agency. You can make your own decisions. And now I've been just spoiled. Step number four, are you ready for it?

I am. Even though it's spoiled, I should really just turn this podcast off right now and walk away.

So step number four is choose. So what you're going to do in this step is ask yourself what beliefs you want to have about sex. So just in the same way that we were writing everything down in step two, investigate. In this step, we're also going to write them down again. And. And what you want to do here is to write them in a positive way. So write down what the positive goal is. So, for example, like, I want to feel confident about my vulva instead of, like, I want to stop feeling like my vulva is so disgusting. So, no, no goals that are like, you know, I want to stop or I don't want. It's like, what is something positive that you do want? So again, this is another step that nobody ever takes, like, identifying what is it that we want to believe about sex? So many of us just get stuck in that feeling of shame. So this is an incredibly, incredibly powerful thing to do. So once you make that list for each belief that you write out, and you could really go to town on this, like, you could, you know, maybe you just want to start with, like, one or two, but this could turn into a very big list, like, of all the beliefs that you want to have about sex, all the things that you want to feel about it. But what you want to do here is like. Like, for each belief that you come up with, start thinking about what are specific actions that you could take to start believing it. So we don't want to just leave you with this. Like, I want to believe that sex is great. Like, okay, sure. Where do you go from there? Like, we want to really dig into this and make it super practical. Like, what are specific baby steps that you could take, specific actions that you could take to start believing that belief. So you're gonna pick one goal to work towards at a time. So I'm just gonna walk through an example. Like, let's say you have that example I mentioned earlier of, like, I wanna feel confident about my vulva. What are specific actions that you could take to start building that confidence? So maybe it's like looking at it in the mirror. We actually just did a poll about it was something related to masturbation, I think, last week. And I put as one of the options, like, I've never looked at my vulva.

Shocking number of people.

It was, are your labia, like, symmetrical or unsymmetrical? And 25% of people who responded said that they have never looked at their vulva. So, wow, that's a big, big potential step for a lot of you. Listening.

Take a look in the mirror.

Yes. So it could be like, look at it in the mirror. It could be talking to your vulva and telling your vulva that it's beautiful and perfect. Maybe it's masturbating. Maybe it's buying your vulva a toy. Some cute new lingerie.

Buy your vulv. Vulva some lingerie. Yeah, some special vulva lingerie.

Dormants. You know, maybe it's letting your partner touch it. Letting your partner go down on it. You touching it in front of your partner. So, like, again, specific steps that you could take to build that confidence and you're gonna make yourself a little game plan, a shame busting game plan of like these specific steps that you can take to start really and truly believing those positive beliefs that you want to have. Have.

Yeah, I mean, for me, when it. When it came to the sex drive stuff, the thing that always kept me stuck there was that I had this general idea that, like, you know, I wasn't treating my body very well at the time. I wasn't eating very well. I was really busy with work. I didn't have any free time. I didn't have any hobbies that I enjoyed. I didn't have very much energy. I wasn't getting very much sleep. And so I kind of had this vague sense of like, yeah, you know, this probably isn't very good for me, but, like, I'm in my 20s, like, I should be able to power through. The reality was it wasn't until I actually started, like, incrementally making progress in each of those areas and really choosing myself over all these other things, like work or whatever it was, and really choosing myself, like, was gonna feel good for me. Like, like, oh, okay, it feels good when I get a little bit of exercise or, you know, it feels good to have proper boundaries at work so that I, you know, have a life outside of that. Or, you know, I'm done by 5 o' clock and, you know, getting to hang out with Vanessa and whatnot. And it's like all of a sudden that sex drive came roaring back once I actually made space for myself. You know, I guess I feel lucky that that just. I'm not going to say it just happened. You know, I was making good progress on all these things, but I didn't really have a plan from the beginning of, oh, I'm going to get my sex drive back by doing all this stuff. It was like, eventually I reached the breaking point where I was just like, I'm really unhappy. I'm really unhappy. And I got to try something different. I got to start prioritizing myself and what I want over what I think other people want of me.

Yeah, I mean, you know, for each individual shameful belief, like, there's going to be a different journey towards overcoming it. Some of them are. Are gonna probably be easier and more straightforward. Other ones, I mean, to be honest, like, this could be a years long, even a lifelong journey of overcoming it. But I think even just the step of. The step of identifying the steps, it's again, another way to show yourself, like, you do have agency and power. Shame is not going to control you. So just being able to look at, like, okay, here are some potential things that I can do. And the baby step part of it is the most important thing of it. Because, of course, like, you'd be like, I'm just gonna feel confident during sex, but come on, like, that's. That's hard. So it's identifying little things that you could do. I could make a little bit more noise than I used to. I could suggest doing a slightly different variation on this sex position. You know, it's like identifying things that feel doable. You can give yourself some quick wins, but the whole thing here is just really being able to prove to yourself that shame is not this all powerful, controlling monster that you're never going to be able to conquer. So it leads us into step five, which is to reinforce. So the thing about shame is that it is going to continue to surface throughout the course of your life. Like, I think we want to be really clear in saying that shame is not something that's ever going to completely disappear. Like, for all the work that Xander and I have done on our sex lives individually and and together, like, we still feel shame on a regular basis, I'd say. So the idea here is, like, what do we do in those moments when we have, like, a shameful thought or a feeling arise? So we actually have a whole podcast episode number 43 about how to manage distracting thoughts in the moment that has some great tips that you can go back and listen to as well. It really talks about how, like, we can't control our brain. You're never gonna be able to control your brain and how have it never have a shameful thought. But there are a couple of steps that you can do in the moment. So the first thing to do is Depersonalize it. So we already talked about how shame can feel very personal. But we took the step of recognizing it's not something inherent to you or natural to you. It's something that you were taught to have. So taking a moment in the moment, I keep repeating myself like that. Taking a moment in the moment to recognize where it came from. I'm like, oh yeah, that's what I was taught in church. That's what I was taught in school. That's what my friends taught me. And like telling yourself, like, this is not mine. This is given to me. This was put on my shoulders.

Yeah, I mean, and that's. Hopefully you can see how that's so much better than just being like, well, shit, here we go again, here they come again. What am I going to do now? Like, or beating yourself over the head about it. Because, yeah, you can't control your brain. Mean you've literally been conditioned for years and years and years to think this way. So, you know, yeah, you make some progress. It doesn't mean that it's never coming back ever. So instead of just being like, oh God, no, not this again, it's like, oh, yeah, this is this thing that's gonna happen sometimes and it's not mine.

Yeah. I mean, the other thing about shame is like, you're still living in a sex negative society. We are all still getting sex negative messages on a daily basis. So even if you, if you conquer some shame from your past, like, there's gonna be something new to come up at, you know, all the time. So it's just really being able to recognize like this is external, it's coming from outside of us. It's not like our own personal thoughts and feelings. Okay, so in the moment you're depersonalizing it and then redirect yourself. So remind yourself of your desired goal or your desired belief. So I'll give you an example here. Like, one of the ways that shame still surfaces for me is feel. Feeling self conscious about my body during sex. Like, I will still catch myself thinking like, oh, my stomach's kind of like making this unattractive little fold. I've got a little belly pooch coming out, something like that. So that thought comes into my brain. I can't control that thought. I'm never going to get to a place where I can completely eliminate that thought from my brain. But what I do in the moment is I remind myself, like, that's not my belief. I have been taught to have so many negative feelings about my body, body and what I want to remind myself in the moment is to focus on all the pleasure that my body is capable of feeling. What my body looks like has no bearing on what my body is capable of feeling in this moment. So that's like my way of redirecting myself.

Yeah, I imagine another really good redirection would be to try to think of a really positive, or in this case, a particularly sexy memory you have have of like, in your case, it could be like, oh, when was the last time, like, you were having sex and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm so sexy, my body's so hot, or something like that. It was just like bringing up, like a really positive, sexy memory of, you know, you doing the thing that you're having this shameful thought about. Because we're into reinforce at this point. So presumably you've already made some progress. You've started doing some things that you maybe felt shameful about in the past. You probably have some good memories associated with them. So bring those back and remind yourself, oh, yeah, I don't always feel like this. I've. I've done some of this stuff and it's been great.

Successfully dismantling shame is all about repetition. You've spent your entire life having repeated messages about sex being bad and wrong and shameful. So you need to spend a good chunk of time having repeated messages about sex being positive and joyful and pleasurable and okay and exciting. So it's that constant repetition. And it's going to feel constant, especially at the beginning when you're trying to, like, get used to this. It's going to feel like you're having to, like, redirect yourself every few seconds. But it's so important just to get that repetition into your brain. The repetition is what's going to rewire your brain and help you have a more positive relationship with sex.

Yeah, I mean, it is going to feel probably like a lifetime of work, because the reality is that you've had a lifetime up till now of, of negative reinforcement.

Okay, So I know that's starting to feel a little heavy. You're like, whole lifetime of work, what the fuck? But.

But it could be fun work.

So let's go to step six, which is to celebrate again. So every time that you do something in alignment with your new beliefs, so you look at your vulva in the mirror, or you ask for something that you want, or you redirect one of your beliefs in the moment.

Ding, ding. You get a point.

You get a point.

And you can. When you get a thousand points, then you can spend one.

Just kidding. Like, shame bucks.

Yeah, you. You got one point in the Vanessa Xander shame bucks. I don't know.

Anti Shame bucks.

Anti shame bucks.

What does that show?

Yeah, you get to join our loyalty program, and once you get 10,000 points, then you get. You get one $19 masterclass.

Our loyalty program. What does that show, though? There's a show where they're like, oh, it's the office, like, shruit bucks.

Oh, yeah. Shrewd bucks. Oh, yeah. And Dwight's. Dwight's very short period as office manager.

Yeah. And then they're, like, hassling him over what's the redemption value of the shrut bucks. Yeah. Okay, so our loyalty pro. We got to come up with a better name for anti shame bucks. What's like, I don't know. We'll come up with something better. Prizes. Loyalty program. We'll look through the whole thing.

Shame shillings.

No, it's not. We can't call them shame shillings because then it seems like you get paid every time you feel shame confidence. Okay. We had to take a quick Google break to Google the opposite of shame, which we really should have prepared for before we started this episode. But we. Google says that the opposite of shame is pride, which I think that could. That could work.

It also said indifference, which is kind of funny because, I mean, I could see it either way. Like, you know, if you're super shame ashamed of something, like, it would be the opposite if you are completely indifferent to it, but also, it would be completely the opposite if you were super proud of it.

So pride pounds or pennies?

You know, I think if we're trying to have a sham redemption program, pride pennies is better.

You get 100 pride pennies and you get a prize.

Yeah, I mean, it's gonna be like. It's gonna be like a run on the bank. If we're just giving away, like, you know, like, pounds, that's, like, more than.

$1, but then you have, like, the. You know, the, like, sexual innuendo with it, too. Like a pride pound.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Speaking. Speaking of.

Wait, hold on. Also, because this podcast is getting very popular in Great Britain, so maybe we should use their pounds.

Oh, yeah. We. We gotta grow the. The British audience. Audience.

We love growing.

We were like, we love your pounds. Pound us, please. Pound us with your pride. Speaking of. Of pound us with your pride. I. I have to say. We'll see. We'll see if this makes. If this makes the cut. I. This might be somewhat identifiable to. To some random person But I was driving. I was driving home today, and there was a truck with a sign on it. It was like. Like a landscape designer or like a gardener or something. It was. It said plowboy. Plowboy. I won't say the rest of it because that might be too identifiable, but it was like, plowboy blank, like an occupation. And I was like. And I drove by and was an older gentleman, and I was like, you have no idea what your business name.

Means, but that's like the. The big semi truck that I saw, that was me come. It's like the experience starts with me come fast.

I mean, what you want, right? You. You. I mean, within. With, you know. You know, within the speed limit, because you definitely don't want. You know, you don't want semis driving too fast, but me come as. As fast as legally possible.

Wow. I don't even know how we got here. How do we bring it back?

Anyway? Bring us your pride pounds and your pennies. Yeah, and your pennies. And, you know, we probably won't actually create a loyalty program, but it was a nice idea. And you said at the beginning of this episode that it wouldn't turn funny.

I didn't think we were gonna find a way to make shame funny, but.

Well, you know, we're.

We're breaking somebody's heart now. They're, like, getting all excited about doing this. Like, pride pounds. And now you just. You should shatter their homes.

Well, I mean, I think it's okay that we're. We're getting funny now because we are at the end of the step. So at this point, you know, some. Some, if you made it this far, you know, you're feeling good about yourself, like, it's no longer a heavy thing. You're like, hell, yeah, I'm celebrating. I've celebrated again. I'm reprogramming.

You know what? We're gonna put a question box up on Instagram after this episode airs, and we're gonna ask you to share the things that you get pride pounds for. So we'll do. We'll do some sort of celebration. So think about your pride pound earning activities and come share them with us on Instagram. Okay? But let's wrap this up before go too off the rails with step number seven, which is to reprogram. So just like we were saying a minute ago, busting down shame is all about repetition. You've had tons of negative messages about sex. Now we need to bombard your brain with.

Wow, that was. That was. That was great. Great alliteration.

Bombard your brain bombastically. Bombastically bombard your brain with positive, healthy messages about sex. So the best way to do this is to watch, read and listen to sex positive content. So you're doing this step already. You're here listening to this podcast. Listen to all of our other podcasts, follow us on Instagram, get on our email list, watch our YouTube videos, all the things. But honestly, like, the more exposure you get, get to. And not, not just us, maybe there are other people that you want to follow too. They probably don't have a Pride Pound loyalty program. But, you know, we're not the only people on this mission to take the shame away from sex. So get a wide variety of sources.

Yeah, you can cheat on us.

It's okay, you can cheat on us for sure. But the more exposure you have to sex positive messages, the more you're going to get. Get it drilled into your brain, bombarded into your brain.

That does not sound like a positive thing. I don't want anything bombarded into my brain.

Oh, you're gonna rewire your brain. The more positive messages you see, it's gonna rewire your brain to have more positive, healthy, shame free associations with sex.

Okay, okay, fair.

And another aspect of this is also you talking about sex more openly with your partner, your friends, your therapist, whoever will listen. You know, like, this is that guy on the street. Maybe not random people. I mean, sure, go for it. But, you know, like we were saying, where shame really isolates us, makes us feel alone, makes us feel like it's something that we can't talk about or acknowledge. Like, the more you share your story, you talk about sex openly. Of course, in, like, you know, the context matters. We want to be appropriate. But the more that you talk about it openly, the more you're gonna really start to dismantle those deeper layers of shame. So, you know, I talked a little bit at the beginning of this episode about my parents attempted giving me the talk. Like, many years later, us talking about sex actually led to some really incredible healing for all of us around sex. Like, once I went to college and started majoring in it, like, my parents, very slowly, over a long period of time, like, started talking to me more about it. Like, oh, like, what are you reading? What are your classes like?

I don't think they really opened up that much until after you and I started dating.

No, I mean, I was almost huge.

We almost were not allowed to sleep in the same bed the first time I came home to meet Vanessa's family.

Yeah, like 23 but yeah, I mean, I will say there was a huge quantum leap, like, once we built this business and we honestly built our Instagram account. Like, my parents. Parents follow it now.

They're involved in it sometimes.

They're involved. They show up in it all the time. They have their own highlight in it. They have taken our courses and guides, you know, so now it's just like, yeah, it's such an open topic of conversation. We don't feel ashamed or embarrassed about it anymore. There's so much laughter around it. Like, the way that I can talk about sex with my parents now, it's just night and day different from what it was. You know, that one really, really sad attempt at a conversation back when I was a kid, which honestly was the only time we ever talked about sex my entire childhood.

And it.

We didn't really actually talk about it. But I think, you know, it's been healing for me. It's helped me, like, overcome that shame. I think it's been really healing for them and help them have healthier relationships with sex, like, even, you know, at this stage in their lives. So it's just. It's just been so powerful. So we are also going to link you to a free guide that we have all about how to start talking about sex with your partner, even if you never have have before. So we'll have two things for you in the show notes. We'll have the recap of these seven steps, and we'll have that guide about how to start talking about sex.

Oh, and also the application for our loyalty program.

Loyalty program? Yeah.

Shame pounds. Pride pounds.

Pride pounds.

Pride pounds. Pound us with those pride pounds.

Pounding out shame with pride pounds.

Yeah, pound it out.

Pound it out with pride pounds.

Bust that shame all over me.

I just feel like we're really missing, like, a very obvious joke here. I feel like we're gonna get a DM from somebody that's gonna say, like, guys, how did you not think of calling it?

All right, well, DM us. Let us know.

We're gonna, like, stop recording. And I'm gonna think like, oh, my God, that's what we should have called it. But yeah, DM us and let us know. So that is our seven steps for dismantling and overcoming sexual shame. Again, we will put those two guys guides in the show notes. We also encourage you to follow us on Instagram at Vanessa Marin therapy and on YouTube to add more healthy sex positive content into your life.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and earning 10.

10 pride pounds.

I had to pause. I had to pause because I almost said shame whatevers.

Shame shilling shillings.

Yeah, you. You got 10.

You gotta trade in your shame shillings for pride pounds.

Yeah, that's. There you go. That's right. That's right. What's the exchange rate? I heard it's not very good right now. All right. Seriously. All right, all right. Lock it down. We got. We gotta finish this. All right, join us again next week when we talk about the biz. Yep. We are spilling the beans on how this business came to be what it is, how things have changed over the years and more.

Yeah, it's going to be a fun episode. Another one of those episodes that I didn't think people would want to hear from us. I'm like, who wants to talk about the business? They just want to, like, see the stuff that we make. But we've gotten a lot of requests for this, so I'm excited to do this episode.

Yeah. We are going to give you a sneak peek behind the scenes. It's going to be enthralling.

And speaking of sneak peek behind the scenes, I also should call out the very end of our last podcast episode. There was a little Easter egg at the very, very end. I'm not gonna say anything else about it. I just feel like probably no one listened to it and it was pretty funny. So.

So DM us and let us know what you thought of that Easter egg. Prove it to us. You'll get another 10 or maybe 15 pride pounds for that.

No, that's. I think that's like five pride pounds. Okay, we'll compromise.

Seven. All right, over and out, ladies and gentlemen. We love you. Goodbye. See you next time.