Episode 69: What Do Men REALLY Think About… Part Two! (Lingerie, Boobs, Money, Queefing, and More!)

I'm very excited, especially because in our little notes, there's a question here that says V Question for X. And then in parentheses, X. Don't look.

Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscrib for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

All right, we are recording episode 69.

Yes, it is episode 69, and we couldn't hold out to do the 69 episode as our 69th episode.

We thought about it, but it was a while ago, and we were like, we'd have to wait so long.

Well, we did it June 9th, because then that was six. Nine.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's a better option.

And also the anniversary of our podcast. So I remember back then, we were thinking, oh, what's better? Six, nine, or the 69th episode?

Also, people were clamoring for the 69 episode. Or, yeah, sorry, to be really clear, the episode on the sex act, 69ing, not episode 69, which is today. People wanted it. And we were like, we could wait until number 69, but it's going to be a while.

So we decided to do it then. So now episode 69 is your time to shine.

All about me, baby.

We're doing another what Do Men Think Episode. The original one that we did was so popular, and people just begged, clamored, as Xander might say, for another episode. So we decided, okay, we've got to do a part two to this. And since Xander didn't want to have to speak for all of mankind again, it's tough.

It's a lot of responsibility. It's a lot of responsibility.

Even with our disclaimer last time, we decided to do more polls for this episode so that we could also get opinions from all the men in our Instagram community as well. Since this is your time to shine in a team meeting, we got asked recently when you were going to sing on an episode again. I'm pretty sure I made you sing for the original what Do Men Think? Episode, so we're gonna do it again. Your options are Rocket Man, Piano man, or Macho Man.

Okay, I have no idea what Piano man is. Wait, tell Me, the artist. Please.

Come on, come on.

Give me the artist.

Elton John.

Wait, so Rocket man and Piano man, both by Elton John.

Rocketman is by Elton John. Piano man is by Billy Joel.

Okay, I can't say I know Piano man, so I'm gonna have to do Macho. Macho Man. Don't you wanna be a macho man?

Very good.

Are there. Are there other words in that song?

There must be.

Is there, like, a verse? I have no idea.

Hold on. Okay, we had a quick Google break. I did look at the Macho man lyrics. They're weird. It says, wanna feel my body, baby, such a thrill My body, wanna touch my body it's too much My body, my body don't you doubt my body. Talking about my body, Turn it out. My body.

I'm experiencing some cognitive dissonance because I. This doesn't sound like the Macho man song that I know. However, I'm just gonna say I'm not sure I've ever really. I don't think I've ever listened to the Macho man song in full. I've never sought out the song to listen to. I feel like it's one of those.

Like, this is. Wait, hold on. I have to keep reading. Like, everybody, every man wants to be a macho macho man. To have the kind of body always in demand. Jogging in the mornings. Go man, go. Workouts in the health spa. Muscles glow, you can best believe that he's a macho man Ready to get down with anyone he can. It keeps going like. This is actually one of the weirdest songs. It's all about his body. Love to pop my body, love to please my body. Don't you tease my body, you'll adore my body. What is this song?

I mean, would you expect any less from a song entitled Macho Man?

I mean, I guess not.

What were you thinking it was going to be about?

I highly recommend that everybody Googles Macho man lyrics. It's one of the weirdest songs I've ever seen.

I'm really curious to just listen to that song again because I think I've probably just never heard beyond the chorus.

Well, as much as I'd love to sit here and dissect the song for the entire rest of the episode, we do have a different topic. We put a call out to Instagram and we said, you know, let us. Let us know. What else are you curious about? What do you want to know about? What men really think about this particular topic. And this is a bit of a heteronormative or I guess, cis normative topic. We were asking women, what is it that you want to know about men? So we put a call out to our Instagram audience. We said we're doing a what Do Men really think? Episode Part 2. Give us the questions, the topics that you want to know. And we do just want to call out at the beginning that these are mostly questions from women. You know, people who haven't had the experience of being a man, people who are in romantic relationships with men, like, just wanting to understand, like, what do men really think?

What the hell is he thinking?

What is going on in that brain of his? Thoughts about lingerie, women who make more money or have higher sex drives, breast size, and even the million dollar question, which I won't say. We'll leave it until the end.

Ooh. Okay, let's do that.

Yeah, a little spoiler alert there. So, like we said, this episode is going to be a mix of Xander taking his time to shine in the 69, giving his opinions, but also, we are gonna be sharing with you the very fascinating poll results from our Instagram community.

As much as I would like to just plow right ahead into the meat of this episode, we do have to put the brakes on a little because I have to deliver our review of the week.

Well, that makes it sound like the review of the week is, like, a bummer.

No, the review of the week is awesome.

It's part of the episode.

All right, but first, the review of the week. How's that for a little more excitement? Make time for this podcast. This podcast changed my life. I was taught earlier.

Excuse me, you're skipping over the emojis.

Okay, okay. Exclamation marks. This podcast changed my life.

It's not just exclamation mark warning.

This podcast changed my life. I was taught early on in my life that sex is something to be ashamed of. Of. And then there's kind of like the. What is that? The sad. It's like a sad thing.

It's the ashamed face.

Ashamed. Okay. Ashamed face. And not a topic for open discussion. Listening. Using an emoji, listening to this podcast, applying some of the things they talk about, and practicing communication about sex with my husband. And there is a nice emoji illustration of a husband and wife in love has completely changed my perspective on sex. In my opinion, this. This podcast will provide anyone with a new perspective and information to make informed decisions inside and outside the bedroom. Also, I enjoy laughing. Wow. That's definitely the best part of that. A wonderful aside accentuated by Emojis of a person laughing slash blowing stars out of their mouth.

I think that's like yelling. I don't know if I'd call that laughing.

Yelling. Yelling stars. Thank you both for making a difference in the world one episode at a time.

Thank you so much for this delightful review. Those are some good emojis for Xander. I think you got him with the the warning exclamation points. But seriously, reviews are so helpful for helping the podcast grow and reach new people. As our way of saying thank you for taking the time to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. And to do that, you have to get to, like, the main pillow talks page and scroll to the bottom and you'll see a place where you can write in a review. And so, to thank you, we do a weekly giveaway where if you are selected as the review of the week, you can DM us on Instagram. VanessaMarin Therapy. Send us a question and we will respond with a mini personalized coaching session with our best advice and our best tips. And if you don't have Apple podcasts, then you can also just share the podcast and your story on Instagram.

That also really helps.

Yeah, we really, really appreciate that. And you can also leave star ratings on Spotify, too.

Yeah, why don't you do all those things? Do it.

All right, so let's get into the episode.

I'm very excited, especially because in our little notes, there's a question here that says V question for X. And then in parentheses, X don't look. And it is in a little, like, expandable section, so I can't see it the same way.

The review of the week is. So we catch you off guard every week. Okay, so I had a question for you. As we were putting together all of the different topics for this episode, and we were looking through all the responses that women sent us saying, like, I want to know, think about this. And I was just thinking to myself, like, do men spend this much time thinking about what women think? So obviously men care about what women think. Like, in a general sense, you know, straight men or men who sleep with women. You're attracted to us. You want to be with us. But, like, the level of detail and some of these questions of, like, well, what do men think about this and what do they think about that? Like, it just made me wonder, do you think men spend that much time thinking about what women think?

No. Hard. No. If I think back through my own experience, I think that from puberty through maybe 18 or so, I definitely thought about this a Lot. And it was more of a, you know, like when I didn't have a lot of experience with women, you know, I knew that I wanted to be with women, I wanted to be doing things with women, but I wasn't doing a lot of that then. Yeah, I was very concerned about, well, what do women think about this?

But what were the specific topics that you would think about? I mean, would you say it was mostly just like, do women think I'm hot? Do they want to sleep with me? Not this, like, level of detail about like.

Yeah, no, it wasn't ever in this level of detail. And I think, I mean, for myself and early on I. I think I had a pretty good understanding that like, everyone's different and that there isn't, you know, for the most part, there isn't a commonly agreed upon. Oh, well, if you are a woman, then you must think this about that. Like, it's just everyone has their own preferences.

Well, what about like, at the beginning of our relationship when we were dating, did you spend a lot of time thinking about, I wonder what she thinks about this outfit that I'm wearing. I wonder what she thinks about my job. I wonder what she thinks about me inviting her to this restaurant for our first date.

No, I don't think I really thought about that. I think I probably did it and then I picked up on like, how are you responding to that? Does she seem to be into this or does she not seem to be into this? Or like, maybe. Yeah, getting the courage to just ask, hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about that?

Interesting. Okay.

Yeah. I can't say that I've spent much of my life obsessing over these types of questions.

Do you think that's a better or worse thing?

I think in many ways it is better, but in some ways it's also worse. Like, yeah, I think like, just from a like mental health or emotional well being perspective. I think not having those types of questions or anxieties constantly going through your mind is definitely a positive. I do think though, on the flip side, what can happen very often with men is that men can kind of just make assumptions of like, oh, well, we've been together for this long and she's never said anything and she must like this or she must like that. I feel like a lot of men.

Just kind of like you get into patterns.

Yeah, I mean, like, we just kind of like go through life being like, oh, yeah, sure, like she's gonna love this without stopping to consider. Like, will she actually.

Assumptions.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that a lot of guys make assumptions or just kind of don't care. I mean, I think men are kind of socialized to, like, do what they want to do and deal, you know, and, like. And, like, not really consider the consequences. And. And I think on the flip side that, you know, maybe a lot of women are overly concerned with sort of consequences.

Overly socialized?

Yeah, overly overly socialized. And so, you know, it's kind of this polarized thing. Like, many men end up on this one extreme where they're just like, eh, whatever, I don't care. I'll deal with it later. And then many women are, like, analyzing it to death at the expense of actually trying out different things and maybe having an experience that shows her, like, maybe the guy that I'm with likes something that not all men like. Or I can just ask him.

I guess what strikes me about that is when we get questions, like, outside of us putting out the request for this episode, when we get asked questions from women, the way that it always gets phrased, which I don't think I've ever really noticed this before, the way that it always gets phrased is, what do men think about this? Do men like this or that better? So obviously, they couldn't be asking, hey, what does my partner think about this? Because obviously we don't know their partner and we don't know how to answer. But I do think that a lot of women pay more attention to overall, what do men like and what are they into? Rather than taking that step that you were just mentioning of asking your partner specifically.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a way to avoid having an awkward or what you worry might be an awkward conversation. And I think that, yeah, very often, you know, we ask these questions, oh, what. What do guys think about this as a way to actually avoid the, you know, the. The more personal question.

So what could be really useful with this episode is, like, you know, so we're doing the episode, we're talking about what do men like? Because I think there is a value in putting polls up in talk, like, patterns and majorities and all of that. But ultimately, at the end of the day, what matters the most is the partner that you're with. Like, who cares if 99% of men love lingerie if the man that you're with isn't into it. Right. But I hope that this podcast can serve as a conversation opener that, you know, if you're a woman listening to this, that you could listen to it again with your male partner and pause it as we go through this episode and say, like, oh, okay, so what's your thoughts on lingerie? What's your opinion on breast size? All that kind of stuff. Because again, ultimately, his opinion is the one that matters.

And the other thing is, like, he may be like, I don't want to just be like everybody else. I don't. You know, it doesn't feel fun to just be like, oh, well, I should just like all the things that everybody else likes. Like, we're all different people. We all have different preferences.

So you're just going to consciously choose not to like lingerie? Because most men do.

Yeah, Be, you know, get creative.

Okay. So speaking of lingerie, that was our first topic, so we put a poll up on Instagram. We said, you know, men, how do you really feel about lingerie? And these results surprised me a little bit. We gave three options. Love it, neutral, and don't like it. Only 53% of men said that they love it.

Were you expecting this would be like 90% or something?

I think a lot of women think that, like, oh, all men love lingerie. I'm not expecting it to be higher.

Yeah. Do you think women think it's sort of this battle of, like, how much lingerie do I need to wear to, like, appease him? But, like, I don't want to do it all the time. Like, it's sort of this negotiation.

Yeah, I think a lot of women don't like lingerie. We have ideas in our head of, like, the only kind of lingerie is the, like, Victoria's Secret, over the top stuff. And that doesn't feel like right to a lot of us. We don't vibe with that kind of look. But no, I mean, I definitely thought it was going to be higher. Don't like, it was 7%, which was kind of about what I was expecting, and neutral was 40%.

This doesn't surprise me, and let me tell you why. I can relate with both the love it and the neutral category. Really, I do. When you wear it, I love it. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. However, I don't find myself ever thinking, God, I wish she would wear more lingerie. God, the only way I can get turned on is if she's wearing lingerie. Like, you know, like, oh, I have to have it. I just don't think that way. It's just like. But it's like, it's like you go out, like, you go out for a fancy meal and. And it's really tasty and really delicious, but no One's like, oh, my God, now I'm just gonna go to this seven course meal restaurant like every single night.

But the amount that you love it when I wear it, I would a thousand percent have put you into the love it category if I was answering for you. You're really into it when I wear it.

Yeah, it, you know, my eyes work. My eyes work and you look fucking good. However, if you were to never wear lingerie again, I don't think I would blink an eye. Yeah, I wouldn't get, you know, that enjoyment out of it that I get in those moments when you wear it. But also the reality is when you wear it, you know, you're wearing it for a very short amount of time.

Before it comes off the wrapping on the gift. Like we said in our Hot Takes episode.

Yeah, I mean. Yeah, that's a really good point. You know. Yeah, it's like a present. If you think about, like, receiving presents on your birthday, what if someone was.

Like, this is already a bad comparison because I want presents all the time.

No, no, no. What I mean is. What I mean is, if I was like, okay, you can keep getting presents, but they're never going to be wrapped again, would you be like, no, don't give me the presents if they're not wrapped?

No. All right, give me the presents.

I rest my case.

I mean, I still. I would put you in the love it category. I don't. But maybe we could have. Maybe we could have had more. Yeah. Subtle category options for people. Because I do think a lot of women interpret this as, oh, I have to wear lingerie every single time if my partner loves it. And that's definitely not the case.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's lots of things in your life that your partner loves that you don't do every day, that you maybe don't do every week, that you maybe don't do every month. You do them sometimes and you get a lot. And you know, and your partner gets a lot of enjoyment out of it. I love traveling. I don't want to travel constantly. I like to be home, you know, I like to live, you know, have like my life here and all that, you know, all the stuff that I do here. But, you know, I also like to travel sometimes.

All right, let's move on to the next one. This was another one where the results surprised me. So we asked, how would you really feel if your partner, your female partner, had a higher sex drive than you did? So we gave three responses. Again, cool, neutral, and I wouldn't like that 72% of men said cool, 21% said neutral, and 7% said, I wouldn't like that. Now I'm going to jump in here and say these numbers are bs.

I agree. I totally agree. But here's what I think they're not.

Wait, wait, no, here's what I think happened. I think men were thinking of this question as, how would you feel if your female partner had a higher sex drive? And they're like, yeah, cool, but they weren't thinking about higher than you. Higher than your sex drive.

Yeah, yeah.

I think a lot of men do not. I mean, I'm being totally honest here because I don't think it should be this way. Like, we talk a lot about sex drives, how they fluctuate. They're always mismatched in every relationship. It shouldn't matter whose happens to be high higher than the other person. But I think that the honest reality is that a lot of men really struggle with having a woman who has a higher sex drive than he does. I think we've got a lot of, like, caveman and cave woman socialization that's gotten under our skin. This is something that you and I have struggled with too, to be brutally honest. Like, there have been times where my sex drive was higher than yours and you did not respond to it well.

No, I didn't. I did not. And I agree with you 100% on this one. I think this is a really interesting question because I think it's one where I agree with these results in principle. I think a lot of men, in principle, like the idea or the fantasy of she wants sex all the time, like that sounds like a great idea. But then in practice, I think these results would be totally different. If you're like, all right, you are two months into your partner having a way higher sex drive than you. How are you feeling about it? You know, I think a lot of guys feel like their ego is threatened. Feel like, you know what? You know, I'm not performing my duties as a man. You know, I can say this from my own experience. When we were in this situation, I avoided situations that I thought might lead to sex because I was scared about, you know, whether I would want it, whether I would be able to perform and what that might mean about me if I couldn't. So, yeah, I think that a lot of men like the idea of it. I think that an interesting follow up question for the future could be like, do you like the idea of her having higher sex drive than you? And then a follow up of okay. Have you been in a relationship with someone where she has had a higher sex drive than you? How was it for you? I think we would get wildly different responses to those two.

Yeah, I mean, I think, again, like, you know, just to be crystal clear, like, our belief is it really doesn't matter who has the higher sex drive. We've pulled this before, and I believe. I believe it was something like in 48% of male, female relationships, the woman was the one who has the higher sex drive. So, you know, it just is normal. It's common. There's nothing wrong with it. The problem is all this crappy socialization that we receive, all these stereotypes that we have of, like, men want it wherever, whenever. Men are supposed to be the initiators, women are just supposed to be like, the responders, the initiators. Like.

And also, like, the only way for a man to respond to sex, being initiated, is, like, to get hard and use his penis to have intercourse. Like, there's no other option. I think that's, like, that's really the thing, the stumbling block that a lot of men have. I know I certainly did. Of just feeling like there's only one way for me to do this, and if I have any concern that I can't do that, then I need to just shut this down.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, you know, when there's a. We also had a question about, like, women initiating sex. And I think a lot of men enjoy that in individual circumstances. But if there's this feeling of, oh, she's initiating a lot, and she's initiating in times that I'm not. Like, I wasn't thinking about it in that moment, or I wasn't excited about it in that moment, then it starts to lead to this sense of pressure. Let's move into a similar kind of topic. Like, if you're in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you do. So I'll read off the Instagram polls then. I'm curious to know what you think. So we gave the same three responses as the sex drive question. Cool, Neutral. And I wouldn't like that. And the numbers were very similar. Actually. 76% said cool. That was a little bit higher than the sex drive. 1. 18% said neutral. And 6. 6% said, I wouldn't like that.

Very interesting. Again, I think this is this idea in concept versus in reality. And I think that a lot of men are like, cool, more money. Sounds great. And then the reality sits in the reality of, like, oh, what does it mean? What does it say about me? I mean, we have been in this situation before where, you know, when we. When we moved out of San Francisco and moved to Berlin, I quit my job. Vanessa offered to support me financially because I had supported her financially when she went to grad school, and I was like, great. That's so cool of her. It makes total logical sense, right? I supported.

It's even.

It's even. I supported her for a couple of years. She's going to support me for a year or two or, I don't know, whatever it was going to be. And I was totally cool with that. And then, like, literally when we moved and, like, Vanessa started working the first day, and I'm, like, sitting around like, oh, this is where we're actually at now. Like, what the hell am I doing with my life? And it didn't feel very good. However, I mean, I think the key here with both of these is that just because there's this difference in, like, what guys are saying when they're thinking about this in theory versus how we suspect they actually think in reality. I don't. These aren't reasons to be like, oh, you shouldn't make more money than your male partner because it's not your job. It's not your job to make him feel good about that. I think the interesting thing is it just presents an opportunity for men to get honest with, like, okay, yeah, I like this idea, but in practice, it doesn't feel very good. Like, this is an opportunity for me to get curious about what's coming up for me, what's going on with me. Maybe talk to someone about it and, you know, try to see if you can. Can change how you behave.

Yeah, I mean, we're definitely not meaning this episode to be a. Like, oh, if men don't like it, then you've got to change how you're gonna go about it. But I do think it's really interesting to, like, talk about the really tricky stuff that comes up here that, like, we don't always have a crystal clear answer to some of this stuff. Like, obviously our perspective is, whoever makes more money, great. Like, we are.

Yeah, someone's gotta do it.

Like, we're both feminists. We believe that women should be making just as much money as men. I can't believe we're still not even, like, to that point. So there's a whole bunch of other stuff that could be said about equality, but I hope it's obvious that you know what we believe about this. But again, I think it's like, Just talking about the complex, really thorny issues that come up, which is that. Yeah. That it can stir up a discomfort, even if rationally, you're like, I get it. This makes sense. This is great. There's still some really deep feelings, you know, that come up for you. So I want you to go a little bit deeper and tell me, like, when you stopped being the main provider, the only provider, and then became, you know, you were not contributing anything financially to our. You're not contributing anything financially to our relationship, like, what kind of deep, dark, scary, twisty feelings did that stir up for you?

Well, I think what the challenge was was that, like, I had said, logically, rationally, I was already, like, cool. This is how it's gonna be. I'm totally cool with that. You know, in my head, I'm like, yep, this should be fine. No problem. Then in my head, I'm also like, not only do I think I'm gonna feel okay about this, but I should feel okay about this, because feminism, because I believe in this stuff, because a man is not supposed to. Doesn't have to make more money than his female partner. And so there was both the, like, me thinking that, yeah, I'm gonna be fine with this, and even if I'm not, I need to be fine with this, because that's what I believe in. And so then it was really hard when I started feeling like, ooh, these kind of, like, twinges inside of me of like, oh, I'm not sure I feel okay with this. It felt really. I felt really ashamed, and I felt really alone because I felt like I couldn't really talk about it safely because to admit that I'm not as evolved or progressive as I might think I am. So that. That was really hard. And it felt really hard because for me, you know, at that time in my life, like, I really wanted to take a break from work. I was feeling super burned out with what I was doing. I. I wanted a career change. I wanted things to change in my life. And, you know, I knew I was taking the right steps to do that, but I just felt like I don't know what I'm doing. I just felt really, like, lost and alone and scared, and I felt like I felt ashamed because it felt like I wasn't getting with the program in terms of, like, what I wanted to believe in my brain.

And I know that you've told me before, too, like, the socialization that you've gotten around needing to be the provider, that. That's such a, like, deeply ingrained Part of a man's psyche.

Yeah, I mean, it definitely is. And for me personally, it was also an additionally ingrained part of my psyche. Because amongst my college friends, people jokingly referred to me specifically as the provider. Because amongst all my friends, like, I was kind of the one that had held down a job the longest post college. I had, like, worked my way up. I had moved on to, like, a really fancy job at Google. I had bought a condo for us in San Francisco. Like, on paper, I had my shit together. And my friends, like, called me out, like, celebrated me for that and literally called me the provider. Like, when people came to visit in San Francisco, like, I had things, I had a place for them to stay. I made dinner reservations. I was, like, doing all this stuff, and I felt really good about myself. You know, I like that validation that I was getting, you know, and in addition to that, you know, as a man, I think, yeah, you grow up just thinking, yeah, it's my job to first to be able to provide for myself and not need help from anybody else, especially my parents or whatever. And then, you know, and then someone else comes into the picture and you're like, okay, great, now I can provide for them, too.

Yeah.

So then the moment I found myself not actually providing for you, and arguably not really much for myself either. It was just this, like, whoa, I'm not prepared for this.

Yeah.

You know, like, I can't. You know, the last time I was in this situation was, like, when I was living at home with my parents. And, you know, they're paying for. You know, they're paying for me to go to high school and live in their house and be a kid, A teenager.

All right, well, we went a little bit deeper on these two topics than I think we were anticipating going. But I just want to be totally honest. Like, these are two issues that have caused some of the hardest times in our relationships. And it's exactly what you're saying. This conflict between what you feel like it should be and what your, like, rationality and your values and your mentality lines up with versus the feeling that actually can come up in the moment. And we can definitely do deeper dives onto either of those topics in the future. But, yeah, I just think it's interesting to like to talk about the complexities, because these are very complex.

Yeah. You know, just hearing you say that, like, if I. If I could go back and I could do things differently, you know, when it came to either the money thing or to the sex drive thing, you know, I think the thing that would have helped the most would be, you know, if I had been able to just really plainly and simply acknowledge those things very early on. Like. Like, the best thing would have been if I could have just said that out loud to a friend or to a therapist and just talked it through a bit and then brought it up with you. I actually. I didn't say bringing it up with you first because I know that can be a really emotionally charged conversation. And if I haven't really worked it out myself in terms of how am I really feeling, like, that could have been a really scary, big conversation. Just come out of nowhere being like, wow, I'm really struggling with your higher sex drive. And, you know, I think that's kind of ultimately how we ended up having those conversations, because, like, things reached a breaking point, and it's like, obviously you're not okay with this. We got to talk about it. So I wish. I wish that I had been felt comfortable talking about it, you know, with somebody else acknowledging it, just being honest with myself. That would have. That, you know, that would have been a real start to being able to start being honest with you about it earlier on. Fun.

Well, hey, I hope this episode gives a man out there the confidence and the motivation to, like, have that conversation with a friend or a therapist.

Yeah, you got to have that conversation and you got to actually feel those feelings. Because the thing is, like, you know, you have an idea that, like, you have this stuff coming up and that maybe you don't like it, but what happens when you're not talking about it is you kind of shut yourself off from really fully feeling what's going on for you, and those feelings are going to come out in other ways. You're going to say shitty things, you're going to do shitty things, and then you're going to be like, God, like, why did I say that? Why did I do that? And it's just. That's what happens when you're repressing other stuff going on.

All right, well, let's lighten things up and talk about boobs.

Hell, yeah.

So a lot of women wanted to know, what do men really think about breast size and shape? And I think that there was really this belief that, like, men have these very particular preferences for how they want boobs to look. So three responses here. I have a strong preference for a certain size and or shape. We also gave the option not that into breasts. And the option, I just love breasts. That was your idea, I think.

Give me. Give me the boobs.

So I just love breasts was 81% and having a strong preference for a certain size or shape was 11, and just not that into them was 8%. So interestingly, very similar numbers for not that into them and having a strong preference, but the overwhelming majority were. I just love them. So tell me how you feel about boobs.

I love boobs. I appreciate boobs. Boobs are something that I don't have. And I think that's one huge reason why men are just so fascinated by boobs. Kind of like how you're fascinated by balls.

But I wouldn't say, I like, love balls. Well, yeah, I'm not like, yeah, let me see those balls. I love any kind of ball. That's a bad comparison.

Okay, it's a bad comparison. Well, but the difference is that like with boobs, like, I don't have them, but they are noticeable. Like, I can see, I can see that they're there. They're being covered up, you know, various amounts of covered up, depending on what you're wearing, how big they are, all that stuff. So it's kind of like this thing is like, well, they're there. I'm curious about them, but.

Okay, let me hit you with some rapid fire questions. What if I had one boob that was a lot bigger than the other one?

I mean, I just love boobs.

What if. What about when I lie down? So I have kind of wide set boobs, When I lie down, they start sliding into my armpit. Do you notice that?

No. I mean, I notice that I am turned on by your boobs.

What about when I'm on top and I'm leaning over you? They kind of take on a weird shape.

I mean, they're all the better for me for my hands to grab them like that.

What if I had nipples that were a lot bigger?

Hot.

What if.

I mean, like boobs. Boobs are like a snowflake. Like there's so many different. So many different varieties and options. And you just love them. Yeah, I just. I just love them. It really does not matter. I mean, I think the thing with boobs is that. And I think maybe this is where like the misunderstanding is, is that, I mean, I think a lot of women are like, oh, I wish I had bigger boobs or I wish my boobs were perkier or whatever. Right. Isn't that sort of the stereotypical. That's like sort of the stereotype.

Yeah.

And I think that this is the challenge. Oftentimes, like in movies or in media, in terms of like modeling and whatnot. Like, we very Often are served up these images of people with sort of seemingly perfect boobs. And I think the reality is that, you know, men can appreciate that you can be like, hey, those are some nice boobs. That doesn't mean that you dislike the boobs that your partner has. Like, you know, I think both. Both things can be very true. Like, you can be like, hey, she's got great boobs, and so do you.

This is reminding me of a conversation that we had maybe in the first episode or maybe something about a body episode, But I think you said something about, like, noticing isn't the same thing as compari.

Yes.

We were talking about how women. We really compare ourselves to other women. Like, she has bigger boobs than I do. She's thinner than I am. She has more toned arms than I do. And you were telling me that, like.

The hell does toned even mean?

Another thing that you're not going to understand, like, cellulite.

I feel like we all just have different definitions.

You can see, like, whatever. We'll have to explain this to you later. So, yeah, you were telling me that, like, men just don't really. There's not that same comparison.

Yeah, I notice. I notice a lot of things, but that's kind of all.

Wait, I'm gonna really put you on the spot.

Okay.

So you've had other girlfriends before me?

Yeah.

Do you ever catch yourself thinking, like, oh, I really wish Vanessa had so and so's boobs?

No, I honestly, I don't really remember what those other boobs were like.

I guess. We have been together a long time.

I know. I've never once, once got myself thinking.

That if you had to pick your ideal boob. I want. I want you to be totally honest here.

Okay.

You had to pick your totally ideal boob. I'm guessing it would be bigger than mine because mine are kind of on the small side.

Probably just very slightly bigger. Sure.

Okay. But do you ever. Yeah. Do you ever find yourself, like. And again, be honest with me here. Like, be brutally honest. Do you ever find yourself thinking, like, I wish she had slightly bigger boots.

Boobs. No. You are who you are. This. I love you. You're my wife. Like, no, I don't think it was.

Just a little bit bigger.

Yeah, but we're not, like, living in fantasy land like this.

Okay?

It would be nice if I had more money. It would be nice if I, you know, I can think of all these things. It would be nice. It would be nice if I. Blah, blah, blah. But I don't know. I try to just live in acceptance of, like, this is my life. I like to, I don't know, try to live in reality.

Hearing I live in acceptance does sound a little sad to me.

It does, it does.

I'll accept my wife and her small boobs. But no, what I. I think what I am honestly hearing you say is, like, sure, maybe if this was. You did have the ability to, like, change my body to exactly suit your desires. Let's take all the. But, like, if you were elements of that out of it, but you were.

Like, my sex doll. Is that, like, where we're going with this?

It's like your absolute ideal boobs might be a little bit bigger, but there's not this sense of loss or longing that you're conscious of. Because I think that's something that a lot of women struggle with on a daily basis of, like, my body doesn't look the way that I want it to look. And there is this sense of an enormous sense of longing and loss of like. I'll say that for myself, like, I am never gonna be somebody who has a thigh gap. I know. That's another thing that you don't understand. Like, the way that my body is built, I'm never gonna have that. I' ever gonna have, like, super lean, skinny legs. And for as much work as I've done on my body, as much as I love my thighs, like, just the way that they are, like, there is sometimes, you know, when I see another woman who has these, like, tall, slender legs that are like, as tall as I am. Cause I'm only five feet tall, there is this sense of, like, longing and loss, of like, my body is just never gonna look like that. And what I'm hearing you say is that you just don't have that experience looking at my body.

Oh, yeah. No, I mean, because. Yeah, I don't live with it every day, so I don't have that sense of longing. So, like, in reality, I think really what it is is that, you know, if you're feeling that, it's very likely you're projecting that onto your partner because you have that feeling and you're thinking, oh, well, they, you know, oh, I know that they like bigger boobs, so they must be just every day being like, God, why aren't. When are they going to grow? But I can. I can also. I can also totally relate with that sort of that sense of longing for something. You know? Like, I see guys with, like, really visible, like, arm muscles or something. I'm like, oh, like, how come. How come Mine don't look like that, you know, Like, I. I surf almost every day. I'm in really good shape. And, you know, I. I don't, like, appear ultra muscular from the outside. Like, I feel very strong, but I, you know, I also know, like, I'm. I. I don't look like those guys. And so, yeah, I mean, I definitely, you know, I find myself thinking about that. And what I've also come to realize is that, like, the way that I see myself in the mirror, it seems to be very different from the way that other people see me in the mirror.

The truth.

And I mean, that kind of really solidified for me, you know, Like. Like, I've, you know, I've been at the gym and, like, if you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror from very far away, you don't realize it's you all the time. And, like, I realized, like, oh, when I'm, like, when I look at myself from really far away, like, I actually do kind of. I'm like, oh, I actually just look like everybody else. Like, I don't look weird. I don't look like the odd man out here. Like, I just look like everybody else at the gym, like, working out.

Another bro at the gym.

Another bro at the gym. And so, you know, I just, I try to remind myself of that when those feelings come up, up for me, or I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I pick myself apart because I see myself in the mirror every day. I live in this body. I just have to trust that other people don't see it the same way because they're not looking at me all the time. They're not like, you know, you don't look down and see your own arms.

All right, what about queefing?

Oh, yeah. All right, now we're really going in.

The question that we put up is, how would you really feel if she queefed during sex? So for this one, we had four responses. We had wouldn't really care and would be a turn off. I think those were the two responses that women were expecting. And then we added would like it. And I would be embarrassed because it's my fault. And I added that one because I think it's so interesting that, like, we women blame ourselves and get so embarrassed and ashamed about queefing. But the reality about queefing is that. But what is happening is your partner's penis is pushing air into your vagina. That air gets trapped and sometimes comes squelching out. So it actually is his fault that he's.

Yeah, there's literally nothing you can do about it as a man other than not have intercourse.

It's happening, like, in your body, but it's his fault. So I put that as, like, little tongue in cheeky kind of thing. We don't think that anybody should be embarrassed or feel bad or guilty about queefing, but I just wanted to throw that one in there. Okay, so in.

A couple of people decided that they wanted to vote for that one.

A couple of dudes, 2% said I would be embarrassed because it's my fault. Those are clearly people who have been longtime Instagram followers who have heard us talk about it before. The next one would be a turn off. 5% wouldn't really care. Coming in at a whopping 87% and would like it 6%. So I really want to point that out. There are more men who would, like queefing, be kind of turned on by it than would be turned off by it. So what are your opinions about queefing?

I'm into it. I mean, look, I'm. I'm into. I'm into sex noises. I'm in. I mean, you know, like, things turn me on visually. Things turn me on auditorially.

Auditorally. I've never been with somebody who was as. As auditorily. No, no, that sounds wrong. I've never been with somebody who's as turned on by the sounds of sex as you are. You're very into it.

Yeah, I guess. You know, I guess that's a specific thing that I'm into. I think it's hot. You know, like, sex is sexy and the sounds that you make during sex, like, indicative of good sex. I think it's enjoyable for me. So I would be all for more queefing.

Oh, no. He's gonna start really thrusting in there, trying to get that air trapped up in there. Okay. What about makeup? There were a lot of questions. We didn't put polls up about this one. So I just want to get your opinion. What do you think about heavy makeup and what do you think about, like, no makeup at all?

I love no makeup at all. Or very light makeup. Like, I guess I. I struggle to, like, know when someone's really wearing makeup, unless it's super heavy. And, like, that's. That's kind of obvious.

A full beat. That's what that's called.

A full beat.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I don't. I don't love it personally.

You don't love heavy makeup?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, there have been times where I've, like, spent a lot of time doing my makeup, and I. I think I look so good. And you're like, meh. It's fine.

Yeah, you look. You look like what you look like. I don't know. To me, you're just. Just.

I. You say I look different when I'm wearing heavy makeup. Like, how do you.

I guess I don't like you looking. Looking so different. It's like you're a different person. I like you how you are.

Like, when we do photo shoot days and I get my hair and makeup.

Professionally done, I think that we have. Over time, the makeup has gotten a bit lighter. I think early on, maybe there were some times where you were a little more made up.

Mm.

Yeah. I mean, I just like the way you look. You know, I. I fell in love with space. Yeah. I'm. I'm in love with the person behind the makeup.

Oh, okay.

And.

Sounds like a weird romance novel or something. What about. Okay, tell me more about no makeup, because. So I personally, I like minimal makeup. I almost always do, like, my cat eyeliner, black eyel with, like, mascara, and I fill in my brows. That's all I do. But I do that just about every day. And so to me, when I wear no makeup. Okay, so I'm wearing no makeup right now.

Let me remove my glasses. I'm pretty sure. Unless you wear makeup to Pilates, I.

Feel like my eyes don't look very defined, and my eyebrows look kind of, like, thin and sparse.

I don't know. I'm shrugging.

Do you prefer this to, like, what I normally do? Like my eyeliner and mascara?

No, I don't think it's really a matter of preference. I mean, I guess if we're talking about, I don't know, like, looking our best, like, maybe I do, like, you know, the. The little bit that you do, because I'm comparing it to myself with, you know, because here I am sitting here. I've got. I just got back from surfing. I. You know, my hair is kind of a mess. Like, I think.

Okay, let me be honest. I can never tell the difference between your hair being a mess and you having done your hair.

Really?

It's so short. Nothing looks different.

Nothing.

Nothing looks different.

There's no product in it. I've. Well, so this is interesting because to me, you know, I'm like, oh, I look a little. I don't think I look disheveled because I. That's the one thing I do like about having this really short haircut is that I don't need to put anything in My hair. And, you know, my hair is, like, not going in a bunch of different directions. But I do think that, you know, after I've showered and I put, you know, the product in my hair that I like, I think I look a lot better. And what I'm hearing is that Vanessa has no idea.

Honestly, I think I kind of prefer your hair like this. Like, it's kind of fluffy when it's short.

I. So, like, I think that my hair looks kind of, like, dry and. And wiry, and I like it when the product is in. It looks a little more sleek. So this is really interesting. I'm hearing that, like, huh. She actually kind of likes it more when I don't. You don't put anything in it. I mean, like, I think you look really beautiful right now. I'm not like, oh, my God, where are your eyebrows? They're so undefined, I can't see them. This is Vanessa. When I think of what you look like, I think of this face.

What if when we met, I had a full beat on, though? Then would you be like, oh, I fell in love with her with that? And so then this no makeup look doesn't really doing it for me.

Well, I hate to say it, but I didn't fall in love with you the first night that I met.

All right, fair enough. Okay, our next topic was moaning or making noise during sex. So we had three options here. Love it, indifferent, and don't love it. Love it got 89%. Indifferent. Got 10, and don't love it had only 1%. All right, so how do you feel about moaning and making noise during sex?

I think the listeners of this podcast probably know that I love it.

Would it make a difference, like, what kind of noises I made? What if I made weird noises during sex?

Well, I mean, what constitutes weird? I think.

I don't know.

I think what we've established throughout this is that often what we think is weird is typically not perceived as weird by our partner. I mean, you know, I think this is. Again, it's sort of like the snowflake thing. Like, everyone's got their different thing. That's what makes them who they are. And it's like, I've fallen in love with you for. For what you look like, for who you are, for what you do. And, yeah, I'm not like. I'm not like, God, I just. I really love her, but I wish she wouldn't make that one noise.

Okay, fair enough. All right, next topic was pegging. So if you haven't heard us talk about pegging before.

Yeah. Should we define this?

Yeah.

I feel like every time whenever we say something about this on Instagram, we end up with like a deluge of DMs. Deluge. Yes. What is pegging?

Okay, so pegging is when a woman uses a strap on to penetrate a man, anally have anal intercourse with her as the penetrator.

Full on anal intercourse in your butt.

Full on intercourse in my rectum. I think that's what you said.

In your anus.

In your anus. Yeah, it was in the anus.

Full on intercourse in your anus.

Which was technically anatomically incorrect.

Yeah, I know, but you know, but the alliteration.

Okay, so here were the responses. I have tried it and I liked it. It was 6%. I have tried it and I didn't like. It was 3%. I haven't tried it and I'm curious. Was 19 and I haven't tried it and I don't want to do it was 72%. So how do you feel about pegging?

This is interesting. Well, the first thing I just wanted to say is that not very many men have tried it, but the interesting thing is that twice as many who have tried it liked it, then didn't like it.

Yeah. Only 9% have tried it.

Yeah. All right, here's what I think. We have not tried pegging.

We have not.

We have tried many other butt things. And I do enjoy the butt. My butt being played with. I do enjoy that. Yeah. I don't feel like a strong desire for full on intercourse in my anus. I do enjoy.

The butt stuff. Episode. If you have no idea what we're talking about.

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, from like fingers or like small toys, I know that I definitely don't like a lot of fast movement. I don't think very. Not very many people like, you know, really fast.

You just like a little movement.

Yeah, I like a little boop. I think it's a great complement to other things. However, I would totally be open to trying it. And for us to be able to laugh about your thrusting prowess, I feel the same.

I like if you were really into it, I would do it, but I just. Yeah, I don't feel like that much curiosity about it. I know it wouldn't be like, physically that pleasurable for me and I don't know, I'm just. Yeah.

And emotionally it doesn't feel like it would be super pleasure. Like, like the power dynamic thing wouldn't be like, you know, a huge draw.

No, not for me personally. I mean, all the power to people who want to try it, who like it. Like, I love how diverse we all are in our interests, but for me personally, it's just like, it's not something I feel that curious about. Again, I would do it if you were really into it, but given that neither one of us really are, I don't think it's something that we'll ever do.

Like, I'd do it if you were really into it. So, you know, if it's sort of like a yes, no, maybe, it sounds like we're both kind of maybes. So it's like, okay, I guess one day if we get really, really bored, we can, we can decide to pull.

Up the old strap on board pegging session and do it. But we do have a relatively new guide all about butt stuff. So if you want to explore, pegging is just one of many ways to explore. But stuff, yeah, we'll put a link to check that out in the show notes for this. And you can also go back to our butt stuff episode if you want. Like a little bit more of an introduction to it as talking about some of the common barriers and blockages that come up around butt stuff. One thing in particular that I'll call out is like, we talked about the question, does liking butt stuff make you gay in that episode? Because I think that's a huge blockage for so many men. You've been socialized to believe that you're not supposed to have any attention paid to your butt, that it's gay. And so we really like break down that stereotype in that episode. So definitely make sure to go check that out.

Yeah. And you know, if I can just speak for all men here, I'm not gay and I enjoy butt stuff. So suck on that, people.

Suck on that. Interesting choice of words. Okay, so our final question was the million dollar question that pretty much all of us women want to know. What the hell are you thinking about when you are pooping for an hour?

Ideally, I'm thinking about very little. I don't think I've ever pooped for a full hour or even close. I used to think that like pooping for an hour thing was a joke. However, in senior year in college, I lived with two of my good friends. Fortunately, it was a four person apartment. It had like two bedrooms with one bathroom on one side and two bedrooms with a bathroom on the other side. And thank God I didn't know this. I didn't plan this, but two of them were on the other side and had their own bathroom. And, God, those motherfuckers would each take, like, an hour in the bathroom. And it was like a running joke. Sometimes, like, one of them would be, like, slamming on the door, like, let me in. Let me in. The guy on my side. We were just like, nope, you guys are not allowed to use our bathroom. Like, we do not trust you. You take too long. Long.

No, but you could do like 25, 30 minutes.

I feel like I'm usually a 10 to 12 minutes.

Oh, yeah, right. You're usually 15 to 20, but you could easily do 25 to 30 if you want to.

Yeah, well, so look, here's the thing. Like, it's. It's sort of a. It's just like, it's me time. It's me time. There's no expectations of me. It's, you know, it's a bodily function. I got, you know, I gotta do it. I'm like, okay, well, if I'm gonna do this thing, I might as well just enjoy my time in here. Pull out the phone, catch up on some YouTube videos.

The things that I hear coming out of our back.

I think for the most part, it's. It's YouTube videos. And it's just like. It's just like a little bit of time to. To watch something and not really think about anything. It's really nice. Honestly, I find myself. It's one of those things I don't really think about until it's like the 30 seconds. SEC. You know, it's like, like T minus 30 seconds. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go take a poop. And like, yeah, I'm looking forward to this. I'm gonna enjoy. I'm gonna enjoy myself. So that.

That was the answer that we got from, like, the overwhelming majority of men who responded to this. They're like, I'm just on my phone. I'm just vibing. I'm playing games and watching videos. I'm listening to podcasts. I'm just chilling. So this gave me a bunch of thoughts. Like, first of all, well, it's not good for you to sit on the toilet for that long. Like, it can lead to hemorrhoids. It can lead to pelvic floor issues. I think that we all need to give ourselves and our partners permission to have some chill time. We actually were joking about this on Instagram, and I called it, like, find your toilet. I was talking about, like, you know, men just give themselves the permission to check out and go hang out in the toilet for, like. Like, 30 to 60 minutes. And we had so many DMs from women saying, like, it's so frustrating. They pick the most inconvenient time. Like, I have to be taking care of the kids and everything around the house while they're just in the toilet. And I'm like, you know, we women need to find this same audacity to carve that time out of our days for some solo, like, just vibing, chilling time. So I think women, we need to find our equivalent. We need to find our toilet, find something. So it doesn't need to be the toilet if that's not what you like, you are not able to do that because your kids always barge in and want to hang out with you. Like, maybe it's something else. But then for men, I think, like, we need to find some other time that you can just be chilling solo where you're not sitting on a toilet, straining and potentially causing some issues.

All right, so I need to find my toilet, but not on a toilet.

Yes, we all do. So here were some other funny responses that got submitted in that question box. How I can spend more time in here without her noticing. I hope she doesn't realize I've abandoned her with the kids.

She does, she does.

And she's not happy with you about that. I'm so glad I didn't shit my pants.

Are you able to think about that for longer than the time it takes to say that line?

And this was the best one, usually sex. Why? Because I'm on Instagram reading your posts for an hour.

Well, you know, we, we have an active social media. I don't think we post enough to.

You know, for that, but I'm glad.

I'm glad that you're looking.

Watching our social media gets you turned on. And speaking of social media, if you are not already, make sure to follow us on Instagram @VanessaMoran therapy. We do all these fun polls for these episodes. We're always on stories, giving you little behind the scenes sneak peeks, giving you great sex tips and advice, and talking about relationships. So come follow us over there and let us know what you thought of this episode and we will link that butt stuff guide that we mentioned in the show notes too.

Hell yeah. All right, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about how to keep your sex life hot when you're trying to conceive Sam.