Episode 73: Do You Ever “Owe” Sex To Your Partner?

When you start peeling back those layers, this question starts to get very complex, very nuanced, and there is so much gray area. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are tackling a surprisingly thorny question which is if you are in a long term relationship, is it your responsibility to have sex with your partner?

Do you owe it to them?

Thanks to our new sponsor, Cozy Earth for supporting our podcast. You can shop high quality goods with responsibly and sustainably sourced materials from the earth@cozyearth.com that's C O Z Y and get 35% off site wide when you use the code pillowtalks. Also thanks to Julie for supporting Pillow Talks. Julie is an FDA approved morning after pill that helps stop pregnancy before it starts. You can go to juliecare Co to learn more or find Julie at your nearest Walmart. Today we turned to our trusty Instagram audience and 83% of our audience said that they have, at one time or another made themselves have sex because they felt like they owed it to their partner.

That doesn't sound very good, does it? That doesn't feel, that doesn't feel good. Just that idea of like, oh, I'm making myself do this.

Yeah. We also asked them the broader question of like, do you think people in relationships have a responsibility to have a certain amount of sex with each other? So we gave three responses to this question. 45% of people said, yes, sex is an important part of a relationship. So 45. Almost half of people think that there is some sort of obligation, expectation or duty. 18% said no, sex should never be expected. And 37% said, oof, that's complicated.

Literally. Literally that. Because that's how Vanessa set it up. But I think that's, that's a, that's a really a fair response. Like it's a hard question to answer. And I think we didn't want to make this just a simple yes or no because if you, if you only give two options, people are not going to be sure what to say. And I think the reality is this is a question with a lot of gray area. And so we really wanted to see how many people would say, God, I just don't even know. I'm going to solidly claim the gray area. I'm going to plead the fifth.

I think what makes this question so interesting is that it is really thorny. Like when you first hear that question. For me, when I first hear like, do you owe sex to your partner? My answer is like a clear and immediate absolutely not.

Hell no.

We say this all the time. Like it's your body. You get to decide what to do with it. And you are the only person who can decide what to do with your body. You never owe anybody anything when it comes to your body. So that is crystal clear to both of us. And at the same time, once we start digging into specific scenarios and like, really taking a look at how does this show up in long term relationships, what would it really look like for one partner to sit, hey, I'm just not interested in sex anymore, or for there to be some, you know, some massive change in their sex life. So it's like when you start peeling back those layers, this question starts to get very complex, very nuanced, and there is so much gray area.

Oh yeah. Like, I remember when we were starting to plan for this topic, you asked me that question straight up. And I think in my head I went through every single one of those possible responses. Like, my initial gut reaction was like, you don't owe anybody anything. That was like my first response. Then as I thought about it, I'm like, well, wait, hold on a second. Like, you know, we're talking about a long term relationship. We're not talking about any given, like, singular sexual experience. We're talking about like, do you, you know, is sex a responsibility that you have in general throughout the entirety of your relationship? And then I started thinking, well, yeah, it does kind of seem like, you know, if you start a relationship on the premise that sex is a part of your relationship, then yeah, it's kind of does seem like there is some amount of responsibility. And then I start thinking about like, God, have I ever been in this situation? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Like I've pushed myself to have sex in times when maybe I don't. I'm not like 100% on board because, you know, there's been a whole variety of reasons. And we're going to talk about those later on in the episode. And so I think ultimately I am like, God, yeah, I'm definitely in that gray area of Like, I can see it both ways. And, you know, I've been there myself, so it's tough.

Yeah. So just to be totally clear, like, the point that we are going to continue making throughout the episode is that you never owe anybody sex. Like, our original belief still holds true. You should not guilt yourself or allow yourself to be guilted or pressured into doing something that you do don't want to do. So that still stands. But we are going to talk about some of the complexities and specific scenarios that this can come up within, because, like we keep saying, it's surprisingly complicated.

All right, so before we get into all of that great advice, it's time for review of the week. Love that there are both points of view. It got cut off.

Both points.

Oh, both points. Oh, orgasm. Great. I love it already. Not only do they cover purely sex stuff, but often relationship stuff that doesn't seem connected on the surface. Mental load episode is the best thing ever. I love that Xander shares his viewpoint and is so ready to be authentic and vulnerable with us. And Vanessa is willing to share what happened in their relationship that didn't work. Super thankful to have found them. Oh, yeah. Cool. Yeah, Xander's just cool and authentic. And Vanessa is the bad guy here. She's. She gives all the dirt. I. I think I talk. I talk a little bit about what doesn't work too.

Yes, you do.

All right. Oh, this person also wanted to make sure we knew. Sorry I couldn't hit you with emojis, Xander. I really wanted to. Wait, wait, why couldn't you.

What?

I don't understand.

But they did leave. Xd.

Xd.

I don't know what that's supposed to be. Well, thank you for this delightful review and this little bit of a mystery at the end here. It's very entertaining. Reviews really do go such a far way in helping the podcast grow and reach new people. So we really appreciate you taking the time to leave. 1. If you've never left a review before, what you do is you go to the main page of our podcast in Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see it there. You can leave a five star rating. You can just write a sentence or two. But really it helps people, like when they're coming across the podcast and say, see, oh, this has a lot of reviews. People are saying great things. It makes people want to stop and listen to it. More than a podcast with no reviews or bad reviews. Yeah, please don't leave us bad reviews. You can also leave us a star rating on Spotify as Well, that really helps. And we do this weekly giveaway to thank you for taking the time to write a review. So if you're picked as a review of the week, you can come over to us on Instagram @VanessaMarin Therapy, send us a question, and we will send you back a personalized coaching session with our best advice and tips straight to your inbox. So when we were preparing for this episode, we went over to Instagram and we asked people to share with us their stories of either times or ways that their partner made them feel pressured or obligated or even ways that they made themselves feel like this was an expectation. So we sifted through all of the responses, and we came up with four broad categories. So four different situations that we wanted to cover. And we're going to work our way through each of these because we have slightly different advice for each individual situation. But before we get into any of the situations. So if sex is something that we owed, how many sexes do you think you owe me at this point? We've been together just about 15 years.

Wait, I thought that you said that we never owe anybody anything when it comes to our body.

Oh, God, I'm confused. I'm just curious. Who do you think owes who more?

Oh, I don't know. Is there, like, a running, like, owed for what, though?

I don't know.

For good behavior. Have I been a good boy? Five.

Five.

I don't know.

Five sexes.

Five sexes, however, you know, and sex is anything, baby.

So to be redeemed whenever I want.

I just touched her arm in a very sensual way.

I was like, what are you doing?

We're down to four.

Okay, I'm gonna get out. I want you to make me. You know, like, when you were a little kid, you used to make coupons for your parents and stuff like that for presents. I want coupons. Like, one sex.

Okay.

To be redeemed whenever you want.

Aria, if anyone's got some design skills, wants to mock me up, a nice sex coupon I can print out here. Okay, send them over.

Totally. Just Kidd here, in case that's not abundantly clear. So let's get into the situations. The first situation that we have is your partner is directly or obviously pressuring you into sex. Maybe they are telling you it's your duty. Maybe they're making you feel really bad or really guilty. It's just, like, a very clear and obvious message that they are trying to send you that, like, this is what's expected of you. This is your obligation.

Yeah, like, they're Explicitly saying something.

So we asked our Instagram audience about this particular situation, and 52% of people said that they have experienced a partner guilt or pressure them into sex, and.

It sucks to see. And also, I'm not surprised because the reality is, if I think about. If I. If I strip away all the experience we have now, like, doing this for a living, and I just think about, like, what did I learn about sex from, like, books and movies and shows and even, like, my own experience and like, my friends talking about it? I feel like this is honestly portrayed very often, people explicitly telling others, like, oh, I'm feeling sexually frustrated, or, like, in that voice. No, definitely not in that voice. But it's just shown in the media that way a lot, and definitely less so now than it was, say, like, 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago. But, like, if I think back to my kind of formative years of, like, age 16 watching movies, it was so much more like, oh, yeah, well, like, guys want sex all the time, and girls don't want to give it to them, and guys kind of, like, subtly, whether implicitly or explicitly, like, pressure them into it, and it's almost like wearing down their defenses. And, you know, thank God this is portrayed less and less, but it's still portrayed to some degree. But, you know, if you go back 20 years and watch teen movies, like, man, it's. It's actually kind of tough to watch. Sometimes you watch it and you're like, oh, shit. You know, this is, like, the way. The way that, like, sexual assault is, like, casually portrayed and pressuring all this stuff every now and then. Like, we watch, like, she's all that recently, and it's like, yeah. And I'm like, you know, I have this memory of it as this, like, formative movie that. I loved it. Like, watching it again, I was like, oh, this is not aging well.

Yeah, no, that's a really good point that I hadn't really thought about before, about just the way that we see this in the media. And it's very gendered and very, very stereotyped of, like, it's always the man who's wanting it more than the woman. There are a lot of jokes about, like, wifely duties and, like, you know, having to take care of your partner. So, of course, a lot of us would get it into our head that, like, this is just the way that sex works or the way that it is.

Oh, my God, I just thought we watched Cruel Intentions like, a year ago. That was the worst. I mean, I'm not gonna say the Worst. Like, that's the worst movie ever. But, like, I loved that movie. I thought that was such a great movie. I hadn't seen it for probably 15 years. We, like, watched it, like, with a friend, and it was really tough to get through.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. So, I mean, there are overt examples in a lot of media of, you know, this being the expectation or, you know, partners pressuring each other. But I also think you brought up something a little bit subtler, too, is that we see so many depictions of, like, male female relationships where the man is the pursuer and he really has to, like, wear down the woman. And it's always the woman's job to be all coy, like, oh, no, I don't want to do that.

She's got to maintain her dignity or whatever.

Yeah. And he has to wear her down. So I think there probably are a lot of situations where it's not that the guy is trying to be this manipulative, abusive asshole and force her into doing something, but he's got it into his head of, oh, this is how initiation is supposed to work. It's supposed to be this cat and mouse game where I really pursue you and I don't take no for an answer and I, you know, because you're supposed to say no. So these subtler situations where it can come up.

Yeah, and our experience bears this out like that. Like, I think most people that are engaging in that type of behavior have had a lot of success with that behavior in the past.

Also, I think there are a lot of religious teachings about this as well. You know, teaching women in particular, like, that it is their wifely duty, this is an obligation that they have. So, I mean, there's a lot that feeds all into all of this.

Yeah, it's your wifely duty on the one hand. And on the other hand, like, before you are a wife, like, it is also your duty to maintain your dignity to. To, you know, to be chased, you know, to be pure. It just sets up this kind of messed up dynamic from the beginning where, you know, it just reinforces these ideas that, okay, well, like, this is how a woman acts. And, you know, a man's got to act a certain way in order to get what he wants.

So, okay, our answer to this situation is not going to surprise you. Like, we think it is never, ever okay for any reason at any time to pressure or guilt your partner into having sex. So we want to give you some practical tips for how to manage this. If you're in a situation where your partner is putting this kind of pressure on you. One thing is you can definitely listen to this episode with them or at least listen to it at a loud volume while they are nearby. Make sure they are hearing this message. But in the moment itself, you know, if your partner is saying anything that isn't is pressuring you or making you feel bad, like, remove yourself from the situation, do not allow yourself to participate in that moment. And you can say something to your partner. Like, if you want to have a conversation about our sex life, I am open to that. But I will not participate in any conversation where I'm being pressured or guilted. So you're setting and enforcing a really firm boundary that if there is any sort of manipulation, pressure, guilt, anything like that, like you are going to remove yourself physically remove yourself from that situation.

Yeah, I think that that's so important. Just that line of like, hey, like, I am open to having a conversation about this, but it's not going to happen like this. And if you are, you know, if the, if the roles are flipped, if you're the person that is wanting sex and it's feeling like you're not ever able to have it with your partner or you're not having it as much as possible. I just want to be really clear. We are not saying you don't get to ever express your feelings about this. You don't get to ever talk about it. That you just gotta grin and bear it, so to speak. Like, you can absolutely share your feelings that you're feeling frustrated, that you're missing your partner, whatever it is. It's just that you have to share your feelings in a appropriate way in a conversation. You know, you, you can't let those feelings out by, you know, you can't let them come out in terms of like manipulative tactics or pressuring tactics to just try to get what you want.

Yeah. So for a lot of couples, like, you may just need to go to therapy where you need a, you know, a therapist around to help you guys have this conversation, help you communicate with each other more effectively.

Yeah. Because these are hard conversations to have. Like these, these are like advanced level conversations. It is very hard to share that. I'm feeling really frustrated. It feels like we are not having anywhere close to the amount of sex that I would like to be having. I'm not feeling connected to you, whatever it is. Like, that's not an easy thing to share. And, and you know, of course that' not a lot of people do share that. That's why a lot of People do end up engaging in this type of behavior because they just feel like, God, I don't even know where to start with having this conversation. And that's why therapy is so important. It gives you a container to be able to have those kinds of conversations. The therapist can help you walk through them step by step in a way where you're not going to end up, like, inadvertently just dropping a bomb on your partner.

Yeah. There is one other subtlety here that, as we're talking about it, I'm like, oh, man, this really could have even been its own. Its own. But I'm also thinking about sometimes this is a more subtle type of situation. Like, your partner, the way that they are initiating, might come across as kind of, like, whiny, like, oh, but it's been a while, or like you said, no last time, where it's not an overt, like, you owe this to me, get in bed right now kind of thing. But it's, like, starting to make you feel pressured, even if that's not necessarily your partner's intention to, like, make you feel awful about this. So one thing that just popped into my mind is, you know, we talk a lot about the skill of initiating sex and how a lot of us are really bad at it because it's so freaking vulnerable to put yourself out there and ask for what you want.

And no one ever teaches us this.

Oh, yeah, no, you're definitely not learning in cruel intentions. But, yeah, I think a lot of people, we react to that vulnerability and that fear that we have by initiating in these pretty crappy ways where we end up, like, being a little whiny or, you know, like, there's just that subtle vibe to it that doesn't feel good to the partner. So I just want to mention that we do have an initiation masterclass that teaches you how to get more comfortable and confident initiating. We'll link to that in the show notes. But I think that can be a great resource for couples where, again, it's not this, like, extreme, clear and obvious manipulation, but it's like, you know, I really don't like the way you initiate because it makes me feel so pressured in the moment.

Yeah. And that master class also covers the flip side of initiation, which is consideration, which is. Is how you receive and respond to.

Someone'S initiation, which leads us straight into the second situation, actually.

Yeah, I know it does. I did tee you up. But what all I wanted to say about that with regard to this last situation, the consideration process, it can help you give a better. No, that May not feel like such a hard no. Like, no, that's it. A big part of the consideration process is saying what you know, okay, I'm not open to sex, but. But perhaps I'm open to something else. And that can help diffuse a tense situation where your partner is feeling like, God, I'm asking for sex all the time. My partner, all they are doing is saying no. And it just feels like there's a brick wall in between us. Mastering the consideration process can help make that feel like less of a wall in between you. And there's still opportunities for connection.

Okay, so let's move into that second situation or kind of. Kind of the third. We added another one on the fly here.

But the next situation. Let's move into the next situation.

The next situation is something that happens, like, in the moment. So we're not talking about an overall overarching pattern. We're talking about something that happens in the moment. Let's say your partner initiates, and in that moment, you're just not that excited about it. So it might bring up for you the same question, like, well, am I supposed to say yes to, like, keep my partner happy? You know, my partner is putting themselves out there, initiating. Like, shouldn't I say yes? Is it my obligation to, like, fulfill my partner's needs when they ask for their needs? So here's a really interesting gray area. We actually think that a lot of people set expectations too high for intimacy. So I think a lot of us feel like in that moment that our partner initiates, like, we should be so turned on and, like, really, really wanting it. And it can even bring up shame sometimes in the moment, like your partner initiates, and you're like, whoa, I am so not. I'm, like, on a totally different page. It makes us, like, feel bad that we weren't, you know, just as horny as they were in that exact moment.

Oh, yeah. I can relate to this so much. Like, I feel like this was, you know, this was the scenario that I used to really struggle in, back when we were having our struggles with sex drive and with initiation, was that, you know, like, Vanessa might initiate sex, and I would just have this immediate, like, visceral reaction in cyber. I would just be like, oh, my God, like, I wasn't thinking about sex. I don't. I don't think I'm ready for this. Like, I need to shut this down so quick so that, like, I don't have to feel bad about myself, or I would just start even trying to avoid situations that I thought Might potentially get sexy. Like, let's sit on different couches and watch tv or, you know, stuff. Stuff like that. You know, let's not cuddle before bed or whatever. And. Yeah, so I just want to. I just want to say, like, I feel you. If you are someone where, you know, your partner initiates and you just kind of immediately feel that shame, feel that, you know, feeling shut down or whatever it is, because I know what that's like. It's just. You're just like, oh, God. Like, I don't. I don't even wanna have to, like, look at this part of myself.

So the thing is, though, that, like, you and your partner are two different people, and you are very frequently, if not always going to be interested in sex at different times. So this is a situation that we all need to get more comfortable with. Like, it would just be. It would be incredibly bizarre if every single time you or your partner initiated, like, the other person was exactly in the same mood, you know, and exactly that moment, every single time, like that. That's just unrealistic.

Also, something I just thought of is, like, the way that you were describing that kind of gives the implication that, like, when your partner is initiating, they also must be wildly turned on in that moment. And I would challenge that assumption, too. I think we. We set up this whole thing in our head. Like, okay, my partner is initiating sex. Like, they are ready to go right now. And I think the reality is, like, most times when people initiate sex, they're not, like, wildly turned on, like, super horny. Gotta get it right now. Like, when I'm initiating sex with Vanessa, Like, I do not have a raging boner. Like, I'm not, like, I'm not, like, ready to go in that instant. Like, I'm thinking about.

I mean, sometimes I'm thinking about, what would it.

What would it be like in a couple minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes? What would it be like, 30 seconds to be feeling these things with each other. And I'm intrigued by that possibility. And so therefore, I'm initiating sex. So I think that's a good reminder when your partner initiates is like, they're. They're probably not, like, wildly, uncontrollably horny.

Yeah.

In that moment.

Yeah. So I think initiation is, you know, and consideration. It's not always this black or white, yes or no kind of thing. Like, there can be a much more subtle energy to it. So we do talk about this a lot in that initiation masterclass that I mentioned. But we encourage people to think about, like, am I Open to being turned on. And especially if you're a responsive sex drive person. If you've never heard us talk about the two sex drive types, we will put a link to our free guide in the show notes. It's really important for you to know, but like, yeah, asking yourself more of like, am I open to intimacy? Am I open to connection? Am I open to the possibility that I'll get turned on? So that can be a much better way to navigate those moments than just sitting in that, you know, that guilt of like, oh my God, I wasn't so turned on right in the moment that they said yes. I think this also, this situation kind of brings up the question, this question that we get asked a lot like, is it okay to have one sided sex that's just for your partner? So let's say your partner initiates and you're just really not in the mood. You're like, I don't really want anything. I'm, you know, I'm fine. But like, like, should I say yes to my partner? Or like, is it okay to say yes to my partner? And so we think that, yes, it is okay to have one sided sex. It's just for your partner. But the key is making sure that you can say yes with an open heart. You're like recognizing like, I'm doing this for my partner. This is a gift that I'm giving to my partner and I feel good about it.

Yeah, like, you're not going to be holding it over their head later or.

Your own head either. Like, it's not this, like, oh God, they're initiating. I have to say yes. I, you know, this is expected of me. This is what I'm supposed to do. I've said no too much in the past. You know, whatever it is, it's like you're not guilting yourself. Your partner is not pressuring or guilting you. So you feel genuinely good about this. Because I do think, like in relationships there are lots of things that we do for each other that we don't necessarily want to do. Like, I wouldn't have done it otherwise, but I do it for you. And I think we are really good at noticing this outside of the bedroom. Like, when am I doing something to take care of my partner that I feel good about? I'm like, okay, I don't, you know, I wouldn't have done this otherwise, but I'm gonna do it for you. And it makes me feel nice to take care of you in this way versus times where we're like, all right, I'm doing this for you. I'm hating it. Why am I having to do this? You never do this kind of stuff for me in return. But fine, I'll do it for you. Like, you know, we can. We feel into those vibes outside of the bedroom, and I think it's important for us to get tuned into that inside of the bedroom.

Yeah, I think. And it can be. I'm just gonna say it can be hard to gauge that in the moment, especially at first. Like, it can be. It can be really hard because it's, you know, you can't. You can't be like, okay, I guarantee you that five days from now, I'm not gonna feel differently about this. But I think a good test. If you are struggling to gauge this in the moment, how do you feel a couple days later? Like, are you feeling any feelings of resentment? Your partner doesn't do something for you, and you're like, oh, God damn it. Like, I had sex with you yesterday. And, like, that's not fair. Like, if those type of feelings are coming up for you later on, that's a good sign that you probably. You probably shouldn't try that again in the future.

I mean, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take that a little step further and I'm gonna say, if you can't get a good sense of this, if you're like, oh, I don't know when I feel good giving sex and when I don't, then don't do this. Like, I think it's better to be conservative about this approach. This is really only for people who are, like, very tuned in with themselves, very sure of. I know the moments when it feels good, and I do get some amount of joy or connection or pleasure or satisfaction. Even if it's not. Like, it's not me having an orgasm or it's not me having sexual pleasure, but I get some enjoyment out of it, out of taking care of my partner in this way. Unless you are very clear on that, then don't do this because it is too murky of an area. Before we get any further, we just want to tell you a little bit more about our new sponsor, Cozy Earth. We've teamed up with them and they are offering you you 35% off site wide when you use the code pillow talks@cozyearth.com so, Xander, it's been a few more weeks now that you've been using. We've been using our Cozy Earth sheets. Are you still loving them?

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Or maybe sex is something that you actually physically can't even do.

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. There are a lot of different, like, specific situations that could fall into this bucket. So we think the key here is that you have to acknowledge what's going on. So the pattern that we really see is, like, couples go through something huge. It's hard enough dealing with that on their own, and then it's also hard recognizing these other impacts that it's having, like, on your relationship, on your sex life. And a lot of couples just don't want to talk about it. They don't want to acknowledge what's going on. It just feels too hard. But if you're not talking about it, it feels so much more painful to your partner or to whoever it is, you know, whoever the partner is that's wanting intimacy if the other one doesn't. So you need to communicate with your partner and share with them. Like, look, I know that this big event has happened and it's really gotten in the way of our intimacy, of our connection. This is not what I want. I don't want us to be in this place. I don't want us to be in this season of life. You can also, like, try to validate and acknowledge their feelings. Like, I can imagine this is really hard for you. I can imagine. Like, use your partner's words if they've shared anything with you.

Like, yeah, or ask them to share. Yeah.

Like, I. I can understand that this feels lonely or you miss me or you feel disconnected. And, like, that hurts my heart. Like, it's not what I want either. And I am. Am just in this place, and this is the place, you know, this is the place that I'm in right now.

And the real key with this one is that discussion that Vanessa just laid out for you is not a one and done conversation. Like, that is something that needs to happen on an ongoing basis. And I think that this is where. This is where a lot of people get into murky waters here. Is that, like, initially, in the midst of a crisis or a tough situation or whatever you might say one or two times, like. Like, no, like, I'm just taking sex off the table right now. It's too much for me. Or, like, we can't do this right now. And, you know, you say that once or twice, and then you kind of expect that, like, it just means that you're not doing it until the, you know, whenever point in the future that you put it back on the table. For you, that might feel really obvious. Like, you. You are experiencing your own life. And like, whatever is going on for you and for you, it might feel really obvious, is like, well, yeah, obviously I'm not going to be into this until I say I am. But for your partner, like, they're not living in your head. They can't read your mind. And so it can be really hard when, you know, days, weeks, months go by and they're like, okay, well, I know they said that once a while ago, but, like, I don't know what's going on now. That's really hard. And, you know, and then. And then maybe they initiate sex, and then you get really upset. You're like, what the hell? Like, I told you no, like, two months ago. And it's like, you just get into this, you know, really difficult situation where, you know, it feels like you're just missing each other, and that's why you got to have that conversation on an ongoing basis.

Also, like, you need to make it clear that it's not about your partner or it's not about your relationship. So another really terrible thing that happens when couples don't talk about this is that partners make the assumption that it is about them. Like, oh, you don't want to have sex with me, you're not attracted to me anymore. You don't love me anymore. I. And it might seem totally obvious to you, like, why would my partner think that? Like, we just. I just lost my mother. Like, of course I'm not gonna have sex. That has nothing to do with my. You know, with my partner. But, like, to your partner, it doesn't. It's not clear. It's not obvious, so you have to really lay it out. Like, I'm dealing with grief, I'm dealing with loss. I'm dealing with my mental health. Like, it's really not about you. And I'm so sorry that it's having an impact on you. I can imagine it makes it feel like it's about you, but I really want you to. To understand that it's not.

Yeah. And that's, like, such a difference from saying something like, oh, my God, like, how could you initiate sex right now? Don't you know what I'm going through? Like, if I'm on the receiving end of that message, like, I'm like, oh, my God, like, I just did something horribly wrong.

Yeah.

Versus that, you know? Yeah. Like, it sucks to have to say no. But, like, if you can turn that into a moment of connection instead of, like, you know, a moment of chastising your partner, making them feel like they've done something wrong or that they're a bad person, that's gonna go such a long way.

And the final thing we'll say in this situation is see if you're open to some kind of physical contact. So it doesn't have to be sex. It doesn't have to be anything that, like, feels sexual to you. But rather than getting into this black or white, like, it's sex or it's not sex kind of situation. Like, is there other physical contact that you would be open to having with your partner? Because really, any bit of physical contact can, like, feel very intimacy building for a couple. And especially when you're going through something really tough, like, having that physical contact can actually be very healing. So see if you can break out of that, like, black or white type of thinking. All right. And that leads us into our final situation, which is maybe the most complex of all.

Oh, yeah. We always save the best or the worst for last.

So you are just on really different pages. You and your partner not on the same page. You might feel miles, worlds apart. So typically, what we see is, like, one partner is just completely disinterested in sex. And there are all different kinds of situations that can feed into this bucket. Like, sometimes it's like, it's Been that way from the beginning of the relationship. Sometimes it's more of a recent change.

I feel like that's more. That's, like, more frequent, where it's like, okay, okay. Over time, I've just become less and less interested. At a certain point, that difference becomes really noticeable.

Yeah. And another really common one is, like, it's just a Season of Life issue. Like, there. You know, there might be a season where you're feeling much more focused on your kids rather than on the romantic relationship. So we turned this question over to Instagram. We asked our audience, like, if your partner told you that they weren't interested in sex anymore, what would you do? And it was really interesting because when I was posting this question, I was reading it over to Xander, and he was like. Like, I don't think that happens very often. Like, I think that's. It's too rare for us to, like, poll the audience about it. But I was like, no, it is not. Like, I can't tell you how many couples I saw in my private practice where that was the original thing that brought them in of, like, one partner just pretty definitively saying, like, I'm just not interested in sex anymore. Or, like, at this stage in our relationship, so many people saying, like, I could never have sex again and feel totally fine. Like, it's not important to me. It's not a priority. I don't care about.

About it. Well, 9% of people said they would be relieved and happy. So 1 out of 10 chance that this. This conversation is going to go real well. 36% said that they would be upset but would choose to stay in a sexless relationship. And 21% said they would be heartbroken but willing to end the relationship. Now, those numbers definitely do not add up to 100, and that is because 34% of our audience just opted out of answering this question because they said it was too hard for them to answer. We gave that as a possibility because we knew. I think it's really. I think it's valuable to collect that. Like, who's just like, I can't even make a decision. This is too complicated.

The response that I actually wrote was like, you guys are nuts. These questions are too hard. I wanted to give people a chance to opt out.

Someone actually DM'd us, was like, this is so nuanced, it hurts my brain.

Okay, so there's so much to unpack in this kind of situation. But the first thing that it made me think about is our conversations that we've had in the past. About, like, emotional versus physical intimacy. We had a podcast, episode 38. So if this is something that's coming up in your relationship, definitely go back and listen to that episode next. But one of the things that we talked about there is that, like, a lot of us have this tendency to think of sex as kind of unimportant. Like, it's. It's just sex. It's just a physical act. It's just about an orgasm. And I think in particular, like, if you're somebody who's struggling with your sex drive, if it feels like your partner has a way higher sex drive than you, it's very easy to think of it as just this, like, physical release and to downplay the importance of it. But the reality of sex is that it's so much more than just that physical act. Like, of course sex feels good, and that's one of the main reasons why we have it. But sex is also an expression of love, an expression of intimacy, even an expression of self. It's a way that we get to. To play with each other, to explore, to connect with each other. So it'd be similar to telling your partner, like, I don't want to tell you I love you again, or, I don't ever want to go on a.

Date again, or, like, I'm never going to give you a hug again, or something like that.

Like, none of us would ever think of doing that in a relationship. But I think that just kind of shows you the ways that we. We think emotional intimacy is more important or valid than physical intimacy. So we do talk in that episode about, you know, some people want to feel the emotional connection set first. Other people want to feel the physical connection first. So if you're somebody who needs more emotional intimacy first, if that's maybe even the reason why you're not feeling open to sex at all because you feel so wildly disconnected from your partner, then, like, that's definitely a great conversation to have with each other, talking about it. But I think it's important to talk about both of those things, we kind of call them the twin flames, to talk about both the emotional and the physical intimacy together in the conversation and as equally important things. So if you are the partner who doesn't want sex, who feels really disinterested in it at this point in time. So, again, to be clear, like, there's no right or healthy sex drive. Your partner's not the better partner if they have a higher sex drive than you. You're not broken if you don't have a particularly high Sex drive. If your sex drive is naturally lower, that's okay. If you're asexual, that's okay. But I think a lot of the situations that we heard about from our Instagram community, it was that there was something going on in their lives that was making them. That was really decreasing their desire. It was like a blockage that was coming up.

Or is something that feels so hard to talk about that for whatever reason, it feels easier to be like, I'm just gonna take sex off the table. Like, maybe it's. You're struggling with just, like, so much resentment because it feels like your partner isn't pulling weight, you know, around the house with the kids, that kind of thing. And then. And, you know, you're so resentful about that, but you feel like, I don't know how to say this to them or like, we've talked about this a lot in the past and nothing is happening. And then. And then it starts to feel like, okay, well, like, I'm not really loving the sex that we're having, and they always want to have it, so that's something I can take away. And it's like, you know, we don't. We don't. In our head, it never. We never think about it, like, in that logical of a way, like, my partner sucks right now, so I'm just going to take sex away from them. You know, you have to really unpack that. And that's what, like, you know, just really getting curious with yourself about what is going on for me or doing that, you know, with the help of a therapist, that can be super valuable because very often there is a deeper root cause or something that you can. That you can work on in your relationship with your partner. It's not actually about the sexual itself.

Okay, so those are our scenarios. Now we want to go back to that central question. So as we said before, as we will continue to repeat, like, no, you don't owe your partner sex. You don't owe your partner access to your body. Do not stand for those kinds of situations. And we want to take a look at, like, that bigger question of, like, what is our responsibility in relationships when it comes to physical intimacy? So we identified five different dynamics that we think are your responsibility to your partner. So let's go over them.

The first thing is respect and not making your partner feel bad about their desires. Because I know it's so easy for that dynamic to come up of, like, oh, God, like, you just want sex again. And it's like, if. If your partner is Wanting sex is missing having sex with you. You, you owe it to them to not shame them about that, to not make them feel bad about that, to not make them feel like something is wrong with them.

Yeah. And of course like respect is a two way street. And I think what it really grounded in is this idea that like no one sex drive is right or normal or anything like that. So you both need to respect each other's relationship with sex and, and not make each other feel like, what's wrong with you? Why do you want sex all the time? Or what's wrong with you? Why do you not never want sex?

Yeah, yeah. I was about to say the flip side of this is your partner respecting your no if you are saying no in any one given moment. And so yeah, and this is the key with these things that you owe each other is that like for relationships to work, we both need to do these things. We, we both owe each other these things. So like, if you are being respectful of your partner and respectful of their desires, your partner also needs to be respectful of you and your desire, desires and your needs. And if you know there's an imbalance there, that's like a serious issue in a relationship where, you know, one partner is being respectful of the other, but the other's not.

Okay. So the second thing that you and your partner owe each other is acknowledgement. So this is something that we talked about a little bit earlier in one of the scenarios. Like you can't just brush this under the rug or just kind of dismiss your whole sex life, never talk about it again.

Believe me, I've tried, I've tried this one. It doesn't work. It'll blow up in your life interface eventually and it will feel really shitty while you're doing it. Even though you think you're trying to protect yourself, it's not going to work.

Yeah. So you have to acknowledge what's going on and stay in open communication with each other about your sex life.

The third thing is curiosity. Like I think you guys owe each other just being curious about what is going on in general. Because the reality is in relationships, things change, change. We change as people, our feelings change, our wants change, our desires change, etc, and when those things change, we owe it to our partner to get curious about it. You know, if, if you are struggling with your sex drive right now, if you are wanting sex less or you're noticing that there's a disparity in, in your drives, like can you get curious about why don't you have a drive for Sex. Can you get curious about why it is that you are not wanting sex. Sex as much or at all in your relationship? And see, are there any other underlying reasons that are going on? Because like we said earlier, there very often are some other root causes that, you know, we tend to feel less comfortable addressing for whatever reason. As hard as it is to talk about sex, I feel like the one thing that maybe feels a little easier is just being like, nope, like, we're not doing that. Also, you know, if you are finding that in the. In the situation, really, this is only applicable to the situation of, like, you're feeling like you really just don't want sex to be a part of your relationship. Like, can you get creative about some different types of relationship structures, like opening up your relationship in some fashion? We're not talking about going straight for polyamory or, you know, like, no holds barred. Like, we do whatever we want whenever we want. I think a lot of people, when they hear opening up a relationship, just think it's like, total game on. And there are so many ways to do this, but, you know, there are very specific ways to do it. Right.

The fourth thing is being a teammate. And I mean, really, this is like, just what relationships are all about, is you're, you know, you're making this agreement to be teammates with each other, and it is very possible to be teammates in the bedroom, too. So kind of similar to what Xander was talking about, like, piggybacking off of that a little bit, like, being willing to communicate your needs to your partner. So if you have gotten curious and. And you explored, like, this is what I need to be more open to intimacy, or this is what I need to feel more connected to my partner, or this is what I'm wanting out of sex. Maybe it's like a different kind of sexual experience that you're wanting, but, like, being able to talk about that with your partner and the two of you working together from a place of respect. All these five things really, like, tie.

Into each other and acknowledgement and curiosity.

But you're working together to try to get. Get as many of each other's needs met as possible. And this might also include, like, putting effort into your relationship, like being willing to read books or listen to podcasts or go to therapy, but just willing to be those teammates to each other.

And then finally, I think as partners, you each owe each other the right for each partner to make decisions about their own needs. And, you know, I guess maybe this one is a bit of a downer, but I think it's also an important one. Like, like, if your relationship is really changing in a serious way, like, your partner should have the agency and the ability to walk away from a relationship if that relationship isn't fulfilling them. You know, I think, like, we get really scared in relationships about what happens if we change. And, you know, hopefully, like, we grow with each other as we change. You know, we change and we grow. It's what people set say all the time. But I think we also have to each accept the fact that sometimes that change can feel really big and sometimes it can feel like it's too big, as crappy as it is. Like we both need to have the ability to walk away if, if something isn't serving us. And, you know, hopefully that's like a worst case scenario or, or a last ditch option. It's not just like, you know, it's not going to be like the first time time, you know, it feels like your sex drives differ. One partner's like, all right, I'm out. This isn't working for me. But you know that this is like at the very end of, like, okay, well, like, I have respect for you and what you want and how things are changing. We've gotten curious about stuff. We are really acting like teammates. We're acknowledging what's going on. And despite all that, it's just feeling like, you know, some basic needs that I have are not being met. Met. Then each partner should be able to respect the fact that it may not work anymore. And hopefully that's able to happen in a way that's as amicable as possible and with as much empathy and understanding as possible.

Yeah, and to be clear, we're talking about some pretty extreme situations here. I think the vast majority of people listening to this episode are probably not going to find themselves in a situation like this. But what we're saying is it. It is your right to say, you know what, I'm not interested in sex anymore. It's not important to me. I truly could go without it for the rest of my life and be happy. That is your right to say, and it's your partner's right to say, this breaks my heart, but I can't be in a relationship like that. Sex is a really important part of intimacy for me, and I can't be in this kind of relationship. So it's just each of you being willing to respect even in those heartbreaking moments that you each need to take care of yourselves and be authentic and true to yourselves. All right, so we covered a lot of ground here. And we have a couple of resources that we want to share with you. The first thing is a free guide that we have that is called Secret Sex Drive Killers. Yeah. So this goes over some kind of things that you wouldn't necessarily expect that can actually have a really big role role in decreasing your sex drive. So this kind of fits into that, like, getting curious, being willing to investigate, like, is there something getting in the way, something blocking my desire? So we'll link to that. And of course, that Initiation 101 masterclass that we talked about, too. If you feel like the issue that's coming up for you is really more around, like, how sex gets initiated.

All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about what it means to grow apart.