Episode 74: Are We…Growing Apart?

Even though you know each other in your relationship, if you guys are each changing, sometimes you have to put more energy into getting to know the person that your partner is becoming than you have in the past.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for make sure you subscribe.

For your weekly double date. Full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we're talking about growing apart in a relationship. This is something that I think pretty much everyone has had an experience with. We actually polled our Instagram audience and almost 90% of them said that they have gone through this at some point or another. And we also asked, is this happening or are you afraid that this is happening in your current relationship right now? Yeah, 34% said that right now they are in the midst of this, they feel like they're growing apart from their partner. So that's one in three people, which is a pretty wild statistic. Of course, feeling like you're growing apart from your partner is really freaking hard. Like, it sucks, it's a sad, it's a lonely experience. A lot of people have probably had this experience of like, you're in a relationship relationship, but you feel more alone than you do when you were single. Like, that's such a terrible feeling of like, I'm with somebody, I've built a life with this person, maybe I even have a family with this person. But I feel so alone in this relationship.

And it's probably extra scary if you've been in relationships in the past. You know, like you're in a new relationship now, or not new, but like you're in a long term relationship now, but you've been in other relationships in the past. And it's especially scary if you have experienced this feeling of before in any of your previous relationships. Because unless you broke up and it was a total surprise to you, most people feel feelings like this leading up to a breakup of like, oh, maybe we are too different, maybe I'm changing, maybe they are changing. And so I think when we have these types of feelings, if we've experienced them before, it can really set off a lot of alarm bells because we go, oh my God, is this thing happening that happened to me before that maybe led to a breakup or whatever.

Thanks to our new sponsor Cozy Earth for supporting our podcast shop High quality goods with responsibly and sustainably sourced materials from the earth@cozyearth.com and get 35% off site wide when you use the code Pillow Talks. So in this episode we are gonna dive into how to know that you're growing apart, what it means, and how to start rebuilding intimacy. Because, spoiler alert, growing apart is not necessarily a death sentence for your relationship.

No, not at all. Most of us assume that it is. And many of us have had experiences that show us that in the past it has been a death sentence for whatever relationship we were in. But it doesn't have to be that way.

What's a better way of saying a death sentence? That's. So I said it. It came out of my mouth and I was like, that is so dark. I don't like that comparison.

A bad omen.

A bad.

Okay, a bad sign. Or like the harbing.

What's there? It's like the. The warning bell. The.

It's alarm bell.

No, not on alarm bell, but like the warning sign. I don't know. No, but it's like it is the end. There's some sort of saying for the end of something.

I don't know.

Okay, whatever. We're moving on. But if you have any idea what I'm saying, then shoot us a DM on Instagram.

Welcome. Welcome to my My life. Don't you know what I'm saying? With this very limited amount of context.

I'm gonna remember it in the middle of the episode. It doesn't need to be the relationship. But anyways, let's continue on.

Don't worry, babe. I'll give you a couple minutes to think because it's time for the review of the week. Wow, this one is coming in hot. The title in bold blew my mental load.

Wow.

Five stars. Of course, after listening to the how sad would it be? Of course blew my mental load. Two stars after listening to the episode which focused on mental load. I had planned out discussion about it with my husband. I was ready for him to be defensive, suggest putting more responsibility on our kids, or just shut down. Thanks to all your advice, he wasn't defensive at all and went into action mode trying to take items off my list. He's a black and white type of person and I'm much more emotion driven. This is just the episode I needed to guide the conversation in a constructive manner. I'm a longtime listener and love Everything you two have to offer. Wow, that's awesome.

Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that because I know talking about mental load in relationships can be really challenging. So great to hear that it went so well. Thank you for this delightful review. So we are really appreciative of you guys taking a moment to leave a review. This is something I didn't really understand before we started a podcast. We learn so many things when we start doing them ourselves.

But wow, that's some good life advice, people.

Yeah, I mean, reviews are the best way to support a podcast because they help it reach more listeners, reach more people. It kind of gives a signal to all the different podcast providers and platforms that, like, this is a good podcast, that people like you should display it more. We are real people doing people's loads over here.

Real people doing a real thing.

So if you take a moment to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, we will enter you into our weekly review giveaway. Every week going forward, if you're picked as the review of the week, you can come over to Instagram anessamarintherapy DM us a question, and we'll send you back a personalized coaching session with all of our best advice, tips, feedback.

So to this person whose mental load we already blew, definitely come ask us a question so we can blow your load again.

Oh, God, that's awful.

I mean, they set me up. They set me up for it. Not my fault.

Okay, Xander will do that. That part of it. All right, so let's get into the episode. So we asked our audience to share with us specific stories of how this came up in their relationship. And we really wanted to take a look at, like, what were the signs that couples were starting to drift apart, whether this was a past relationship or this is what was going on in their current relationship. So I think the interesting thing about growing apart is, like, a lot of us know the warning signs of when things are, like, really bad, when you're on the verge of breaking up. Like, you know, these huge screaming fights and you hate each other and all this stuff. But I think growing apart is really interesting because the early signs can actually be really subtle. Like, you might not even notice it if you don't know what you're looking for. You've never experienced it before.

And then after the fact, you look back and you're like, oh, now I kind of see. Oh, this has been going on for a while.

So basically, we got a ton of different stories, and we're going to go through a lot of different Signs that people shared with us. So some of them do escalate and they become a little bit more obvious of, like, yeah, if that's going on, that's probably a sign that you're starting to grow apart a little bit in your relationship. But a lot of them were very subtle, and I think it was just interesting to note, like, you know, growing apart, it isn't always a siren. It isn't always this alarm going off. It's often a whisper. Whisper.

Yeah. And also, before we start going through these, I just want to say to people, like, we're not listing these out with the intention of being like, if this ever happens in your relationship, it's doomed. These are all things that can and will happen to you at points in your relationship. I think the key here is looking out for. Like, are these things consistently happening?

Yeah. I mean, our idea with this episode is we want to give you tools and techniques to be able to catch this earlier, like, right when it's starting to happen. And we'll get into this a little bit later in the episode. Like, what does growing apart actually mean? There's a little reframe that we want to share with you that we think is going to be super powerful, but exactly like Xander's saying. Like, we're not saying if you experience one of this list of 15 or whatever, like, your relationship is doomed. Heading straight for a breakup.

Like, stop everything. We gotta redo it all.

Yeah. You know, so a lot of these things are just very subtle signs that may or may not say that you're kind of heading in that direction. But the idea is, if we can try to catch these dynamics as soon as possible, as early as possible, then it's so much easier to reconnect and come back together again than it is when you are on the verge of breaking up and you're screaming and crying and you hate each other. So we want to look for those subtle signs. Those subtle signs are a gift.

Oh, yeah.

They're a gift to you.

Yeah. Because they're actually really easy to fix when they are just small, subtle things. Like Vanessa said when. When it's already reached the breaking. Most of the advice that we're going to give in this episode is very hard to do. It's hard to implement when you're really far down the road.

Okay, so let's get into this list. The first one is feeling like you have nothing to talk about.

And this is exactly why I wanted to give that disclaimer. Because, like, there's always going to be times when you, like, sit down for dinner and you're just like, oh, God, like, I don't have anything to talk about. Like, So I just. I really wanted. I, like, looked at the list and I was like, I don't want to say, scare the shit out of anybody. This, like, this is something that happens to everyone. But like I was saying, it's, you know, it's about like, is this a consistent thing? Are we, like, going weeks and weeks and like, huh, we just don't have anything to talk about?

Okay, so again, this is something that, like, you know, if it's happening on a consistent basis, you're just totally at a loss for words. Or maybe it feels like the only conversations you ever have are about the kids or kind of like life admin type of stuff. Your schedules and arrangements and appointments and all that kinds of things. Like, the archetype that I always think of is, like, those couples in restaurants that you see them, they're like, clearly out on a date night, but they're not saying a word to each other. They're just staring down at their food. Or maybe they're both on their phones. Honestly, I think when they're not on their phones, that's like, even sadder to me of just kind of like sitting in silence, like, yeah, although, why are you even.

Yeah, why are you out? But then again, it's like they're doing it, so, like, that's good. But maybe they have to be like, they're. They're traveling and they gotta eat somewhere.

I will say, though, you do occasionally see couples where it actually looks really sweet that they're just sitting there. Like, it's usually older couples. They just kind of look like they're just enjoying each other's company and they don't have to talk. So again, it's like, this is a. It's a nuanced one. It's not a black and white type of thing. Okay. This is a slightly more serious one. But I wanted to share this one next to the previous one because they're both, like, kind of related to communication. So I think another sign that you're growing apart is you don't even want to initiate tough conversations anymore. Like, if there's something that you want your partner to do differently or there's something that you want to share with your partner that feels kind of tough or emotional. There's kind of this sense of like, why bother?

Like, it's not worth it.

Yeah, it's not worth. I don't even want to get into it kind of thing. The next sign this is going back to a slightly more subtle one is there's, like, a lack of laughter in your relationship, and every couple has, you know, different levels of seriousness and playfulness, and that's all totally fine, but I think for Xander and I, if we stopped laughing together, that would be a pretty big warning sign for us.

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, other ones are, like, not acknowledging each other's presence. That one really kind of fits in with, you know, we already did an episode on, like, the Roommates phase. I think that's kind of a big overlap with that one is like, oh, well, we just share space. And, like, it's mine. It's like, oh, the living room is mine. So, like, I'm just going to walk in here and do whatever I want, regardless of who else is in it. And, you know, along those same lines, like, not being excited to see your partner. You know, like, it doesn't really. Yeah, it doesn't feel good when you're sharing space and you're maybe part. Yeah, you've been apart all day and you come back and it's like, not really even you again. Yeah. It's like, not really even saying hi or maybe even finding yourself kind of dreading or feeling like it's annoying to be in the same space with your partner.

Okay. Another subtle sign is a lack of eye contact. So this is a pretty interesting one. I think, like, eye contact feels surprisingly vulnerable. I mean, it is a very vulnerable thing to look another person in the eye. And I think this is one of those early warning signs of, like, if you're just not making that contact with each other, it's like, it does fit in a little bit with the, like, not acknowledging each other. It's like, I'm sort of, like, talking at you, or I'm moving in this space around you, but I'm not, like, fully acknowledging that you're there and you're you. Another sign is when your partner stops being that primary person that you want to turn to when you have news or something important happening, like, some sort of update. And to be clear, like, your partner doesn't have to be the one and only person. Like, most of us have a best friend or a family member, that kind of thing. But, like, if you just get this sense of, like, I'd rather talk to other people. I'd rather share this news with other people. Like, even when something exciting happens, you're like, I don't really want to share it with my partner.

Also, it could be like, if you have different interests or hobbies, and you guys just are feeling like you have so little common ground. Like, this kind of fits in with talking about. So it's like, oh, we don't have anything to talk about. We don't really understand what each other do or what we like to do. We don't have much to relate on. I mean, I think this is a. This is an interesting one because, you know, in many ways, it can be super healthy to have different interests.

Oh, yeah.

And hobbies.

You shouldn't have all.

Yeah, you shouldn't be doing the same. Always the same thing all the time, always together. But, you know, it can get to an extreme where it's like you're just only doing your own thing and different things, and then, like, you're not even interested in what the other things that.

Your partner is doing or even annoyed by it. Like, I don't want to hear about your stupid climbing again. You know, like, it just. Yeah, it starts to feel more of an annoyance. Another sign is when you stop doing the little things for each other. I think those little things, like, that's really the what. That's really what gives relationships that little, like, je ne sais quoi.

I knew you were gonna say that. I was. I was gonna say, oh, je ne sais quoi.

I don't know if I'm fully using that correctly, but I think, like, that's one of those little intangible things about relationships, is, like, those tiny little things that we do for each other throughout the. Like, make us feel seen and important to our partner. Like, you know, when I pour you a cup of tea or something, it takes me five extra seconds to do something like that. But if I take that moment to, like, bring it to you, like, that's something that makes, you know, like, hey, she thought about me and she cares.

Yeah. Those little things, they add up.

Yeah.

Hashtag foreshadowing of this episode. We're gonna talk about that later. Little things.

It's the tea. It's always the tea. But, you know, you have. I feel like we have those moments where you kind of catch yourself in that mom moment. You're like, I couldn't do something really nice for my partner, but, like, them. I'm not gonna do it.

Yeah. I mean, and. And on the flip side, on the flip side, I think, like, the other person does end up noticing that type of stuff as time goes by because, like, you know, sometimes, like, I don't know, it's just like, little stuff, like, around the kitchen or Whatever. It's like, oh, I can see that she's, like, walking away with a full cup of tea. And, like, mine is sitting right there and it's empty. And it's like, you start to pick up on that. Oh, she poured some in hers, but she didn't do mine. Or, like, you know, it's like, oh, she just washed her dish, but not mine. And, like, yesterday I washed both of them.

Or, you know, that took into, like, really petty territory.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm only doing my stuff. You can do your stuff.

Yeah.

And of course, this gut's complex was like, I mean, it's perfect that we had that mental load review. It's like, of course it gets complicated if, like, there's one partner who's always doing all the stuff.

Like.

Like, we could do a whole episode on this. But, yeah, I think that that little feeling of, like, stop. You don't want to do those things for each other anymore.

Yeah. And then, you know, other big ones, like, little to no physical intimacy. And, you know, this can manifest in a lot of different ways, but, like, you know, like, you know, you never hold hands. You're not giving each other kisses good night or hugs goodbye. And of course, like, little to no sex is, you know, another symptom of all of that. You know, like, when you stop doing those little things, probably you're gonna stop doing the big things too.

Yeah. I think we're definitely starting to get into the more obvious signs territory. Like, another big one here is just a general lack of empathy for your partner. Like, when they share things with you, tough stuff that they're going through, challenges they're having. There's just sort of like, I don't care.

Yeah.

You know, you just. You can't find yourself connecting to your partner or resonating with them. And I think the most serious sign of all is a general sense of hopelessness. Like, it does tie in a little bit to the one I mentioned way earlier, the, like, why bother? Type of thing. You just have this sense of, like, I don't even know if we can come back together. Like, life is so busy. We've drifted so far apart. We're such different people. Like, we're never gonna get back onto the same page. Like, that's definitely the toughest sign if you're feeling that. So, you know, no surprise. This experience of growing apart from your partner is hard. It sucks. Nobody ever wants to go through this. So we ask people to describe, like, what comes up for you when you've had this period or if you are currently in this period of feeling like you're growing apart. And of course, a big one that came up was, like, feeling like roommates.

Yeah. Or just feeling super lonely mourning the.

Relationship that you once had. So a lot of people spoke about this sense of grief. Like, I feel like I've lost my best friend. Or, like, I wish we could go back in time. Like, you just keep thinking about all those amazing, incredible experiences you had at the beginning of your relationship and feeling this enormous sense of loss for not being there anymore.

Yeah. And feeling unloved, feeling, like, uncared for.

Another person mentioned, like, missing them even when they're sitting right beside you. I think it ties into that. What I was saying at the beginning of the episode of, like, this feeling of you're in a relationship, but you're so freaking lonely in that relationship.

Yeah. I mean, and then finally, probably the kicker at the end of all this is that feeling or that, like, wondering of, have I made a mistake in the person that I'm choosing to spend my life with?

So let's talk about what the heck it means to grow apart and, like, why it happens. As we were sifting through all of these stories, there was a dynamic that kept coming up over and over again. And, like, people kept talking about growing apart from their partner as if it was something that was happening to them. Like, kind of this mysterious force that was invading the relationship. It was kind of pulling them apart. They're growing apart from each other. And there was this. Yeah. This real sense of, like, it's something that's happening to us. And the reframe that we want to make around growing apart is. It's not something that happens to you. It's something that you and your partner participate in by not being willing to work on or invest in the relationship.

Yeah. I mean, I think this is really interesting because this is a totally normal psychological dynamic. I think it's just. It's a protective mechanism. When bad things happen to us, we are far more likely to want to attribute it to some outside factor. And when bad things happen to other people, we are more likely to attribute it to something that they have done. So, you know, if you. If you see these signs, like, amongst friends of yours, you're far more likely to think about, oh, like, what are the. What is it that my friend is doing that is causing this to happen? And then when something like this happens to you, you're far more likely to point to all these external factors. Or, like, oh, something is getting in between us. Something is getting in the way of us. And I think it's helpful to just remember that is, like, a very fundamental thing that we're hardwired to do in our brains to kind of, like, keep ourselves sane. But it also doesn't really help in this situation because if, you know, if you are, like, kind of in that victim mentality around it, like, oh, I'm not in control of this. It's this other thing. Of course, it's really hard to take any action because what can you do? You can sit there and just, oh, God, I need these things to stop happening to me.

Yeah, yeah. So I think we need to recognize our agency in it, that this is something that we contribute to. So, like you were saying, like, we really want to normalize growing apart in relationships. Like, it's something that happens just about every relationship. And it's. Because it's so easy for us to take relationships for granted, and we assume that they're always going to be steady and reliable no matter what. We. You know, I think we've talked in a different episode about this sense of, like, once you've, like, locked it down, you've committed, you're in it, you've got that person there. This. There's a sense of like, ah, okay, I can take my foot off the gas now. Like, I've locked it down.

Yeah. I think that's something all of us can tend to do, but I think that's really more of a male stereotype. It's like the guy's like, okay, cool. I put in the work. I put in the work. I had to really try hard to get to this point. And because I already tried hard now, now I don't need to try. I locked it down. I put a ring on it. We got married, we're committed. Whatever. Whatever it is in your case.

Yeah. I think most of us, just regardless of gender, like, people of all genders, we don't want to have to put effort into our relationships. We just want them to flourish and be perfect and happily ever after, you know, without any effort on our part. But this is a really unrealistic expectation. And so the main message that we want to make here is, like, if you don't put effort into your relationship, you are going to grow apart.

I think another. Another interesting thing that just came to mind is, like, the way that we structure life, like, as we, you know, kind of go from childhood to being a teenager and into young adulthood, so many things are set up in a way where it's like, oh, well, you Just need to do this in order to get that you got to finish high school and then you can go to college. And then you got to go to college or you got to get that first job or do this thing in order to get this better paying job or in order to be able to move out on your own and get your own place. And it's kind of all structured in this way where it's like, we got to push really hard to do this hard thing that maybe we don't really want to do so that when it's over, we don't have to do that anymore. And I think we kind of get this drilled into our head. Oh, I have a job. I have a place to live. Like, now I gotta find a partner. And that's gonna be hard. But then once I. Once I get them, then it's gonna be like, smooth sailing. We kind of set all these things up where it's like, oh, I just have to do this until that happens. And the reality is there is no such thing. You know, it even keeps going. It's like, oh, now I just have to keep working until I retire. Yeah, life, it never just ends.

Like, well, I mean, it does end.

I really set you up for that one. But, hey, I mean, we don't really know what happens then, so who knows? But, you know, we just set ourselves up for, okay, well, I just have to get to this age. I just have to get to this milestone. And I think that actually doesn't really help us very much because then. Because then we're like, okay, we justify all the work that we do of like, okay, cool. Well, then once I get to this thing that I'm finally going to relax. And I think that's like a really insidious thing in relationships. Like, okay, cool. Well, once we get done with this wedding, then I can finally just chill the fuck out and take off. Take my foot off the gas. And that's when things. That's when the problems start to come up.

Okay, so we got to talk a little bit more about Cozy Earth. So we've teamed up with Cozy Earth and they are offering you 35% off site wide when you use the code pillow talk@cozyearth.com I have to say we got our Cozy Earth sheets. We've been using them for a couple of months now. I liked them. I thought they were nice sheets. I was like, cool, this is a great podcast sponsor. I like these sheets. Xander was definitely like, I am in love with these sheets. So I was like, okay, great. We are fans of these, but we turned a corner this week. We've now washed them some magical number of times. So we put them on the bed. I got into these sheets for the first time since we had swapped them out and I was like, what the heck happened to these sheets? They are so much softer now. I'm obsessed with them. I liked them before, but now it's like, next. I don't know what happened.

They just keep getting better. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

They really are. I've never had this happen with sheets before. Honestly, you can kind of notice after a long period of time. Oh yeah, I think they've like, I don't know, broken in a little bit or something. But this was like, I mean they're still relatively new. We haven't watched them that many times. Something happened and they are incredible. So if you want to check them out for yourself, find your magic number of washings. The good news is that Cozy Earth offers a hundred night sleep test. You can try it out for 100 nights. If you don't love it, you can send it back for a full refund. Cozy Earth sheets are softer than cotton and their bamboo sheets are made from from soft and sustainable viscose from bamboo fabrics. Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for Pillow Talks listeners today. You can get 35% off site wide when you use the code pillow talks@cozyearth.com gotta see for yourself. Speaking of wedding though, another thing that I think about when I think about this topic is like, it's kind of wild that we make these decisions to spend the rest of our lives with each other. Like that's a pretty bonkers promise to make if you really think about it.

Yeah, it is.

I've had these moments when we've had really tough times in our relationship. I've had these moments where I think back to the little 26 year old version of me who got married to you. And like I had, I was, had such romantic ideas in my head of like, we're gonna spend forever together. We are so amazing and we're gonna get through everything. And like I sort of knew in my head like, oh, there are gonna be tough times, but we're gonna get through them together. There was just this like, I don't know.

We have, we have though. We have. I don't know. I don't know where she's going with this.

No, I mean like when, when we have had really tough times. Like I've thought back to that girl and I'm like, oh, you had no idea what you were promising. Like, no idea what it means to spend your life with somebody. And I still don't. I'm only 38. Like, we have decades, and I know that we'll have other points of looking back and thinking, like, whoa. I just. I don't know, it's something that, like, feels kind of funny to me to like, point out, like, it's wild to imagine spending your entire life with somebody else. But I think there's also a really nice way to reframe this. You know, a lot of times, especially when we talk about different relationship structures and open relationships and non monogamy and all of that. Like, I think there is a nice way to reframe this too, is like. Like that we are going to be different people over the course of our lives. Like, if you do life right, like, you're gonna have, I don't know, six or seven different iterations.

This is very scientific, those numbers. You know, we've done a lot of research. No, just totally kidding.

We joke all the time about, like, this is Xander 3.0 or like, Vanessa 4.0 or whatever it is, but just like, recognizing, like, oh, my God, I such a different person than I was in my 20s, in my teens, whatever it is. And I think that if you can look at relationships in that way, like, we could have six or seven or eight or ten or however many. We don't know the slides, but we could have 10 different marriages in the course of our lifetime. And, like, that actually could be pretty cool. Like, could we look at it in that way? So I like to think of intimacy as this sort of dance that we do over the course of our lives, like, with ourselves and with each other. Like, we have seasons where we grow close and then seasons where we start to grow apart, and then seasons where we challenge ourselves to, like, grow close again, and then we might drift apart again. But, like, just being able to recognize. Yeah, there are going to be some seasons of life that feel way harder to focus on your relationship or to be close or to have intimacy or.

Where you just need to try a little harder because you're changing and your partner's changing. And you, you know, when you get to know somebody for the first time, you have to put in some effort to get to know them. And so even though you know each other in your relationship, if you guys are each changing, sometimes you have to put more energy into getting to know the person that your partner is becoming than you have in the past.

Yeah, I like that. So I hope we can just change the way that you think about growing apart in a relationship again. Like, so much of what we do is just trying to normalize things and help people realize, like, it's okay. Everybody goes through this. It's not a.

It.

Death. Death knell. Is that a thing at Death Knoll?

It is. Death. Death knell. K, N, K, E, L, L. Death knell. I don't know exactly what that means, but, yeah, I think that means, like, you're about to. It's the end.

Yeah. The warning bell.

No, I don't think it's a bell.

But it's not a bell. It's a knell. Death knell. Anyways, we want to normalize it. It's okay. And if we can not be so scared of growing apart and instead catch it earlier and recognize, like, okay, this is this dance that we're doing. If we grow closer and we grow further apart and like, let's try to get into a growing closer period.

Or even seeing it as an opportunity.

Yeah.

Like, it is an opportunity to try something new. It's an opportunity to get to know someone a little bit different. Aka your partner. Still.

Xander 4.0. I gotta get to know this guy.

Yeah. Xander, 4.0 is hatching. No, I. I was. So why are you hatching?

Are you coming out of an egg?

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, you got to be reborn somehow. I was really. I was trying to think of the word. The word for, you know, like. Like the way, like, a caterpillar becomes a butterfly.

Like, chrysalis.

Yeah, Chris. Yeah, but I was like, I don't know.

I don't have the chrysalis. I don't know what the word is.

I'm coming out of my shell, babe. I want to be a reptile. And you said this was going to be a serious episode.

I know. If you turn into a reptile, divorce. I don't want to be married to a reptile.

Wow, that's cold. Cold blooded. Like a reptile. Maybe. Maybe you're the reptile.

What kind of reptile would I be?

I don't know. I'm trying to think of what, like, the cutest reptile is.

Oh, it'd be a cute one.

A newt. I'm not even sure if newts are reptiles. Honestly, I haven't thought about newts since I was in, like, sixth grade.

It's just a cute word.

Yeah, newt.

What about those ones with, like, the, like, the thing that comes up over their head?

What? It's like a komodo. Dragon?

No, it's like some sort of lizard where when it gets excited or maybe it's mating or something, like it gets that big, like, over its head.

Couldn't tell you.

Oh, my God. How did we get here? You hatching? But really though, like, I do. When you said that, like, getting to know your partner again, like, there was something about the way that you said it that in the moment there was this feeling of like, like sweetness around it for me. Of like. Yeah. Can you. I don't know, it just feels really tender, like, getting to know your partner again like that. I think that can be a really sweet thing rather than this scary, like, oh, my God, we've grown back apart and like, we need to fix it before everything's gonna blow up and get ruined. You know, it's. Yeah. Can you look at it in that way and make it not feel so scary? Like, I'm just getting to know this little lizard that's hatcheting.

Yeah. So we're gonna get into some listener questions, but far and away the most common question, I'm not surprised is like. Yeah. How do you get it back when you're growing apart? How do you get to know this new person or this other person who is also the person that you know?

The newt person.

The newt. How do you get to know this newt person in your life? I was so. I. I foreshadowed it earlier. I. I was saying that, you know, the little things do add up. And, And I think, you know, I think the key here is, like Vanessa was saying, like, it's not about being like, oh, my God, we're growing apart, the sky is falling. We gotta somehow get it all back instantly. What are the little things that you can do on a daily basis that give you the most bang for your bug?

Because of course we intend that pun. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that's what we're all about is like, those simple little things that you can do that are gonna make the biggest impact. We know everybody's busy. We know everybody's exhausted and stressed. Like, nobody has the time to go on a two week couples immersive vacation type of thing. Like, we need little, like, what's something that I can do today when I'm exhausted and tired and I just wanna feel that little. A little tiny hint of a spark of a connection with my partner.

But even if you do have time or have the desire to kind of do this big, grand, romantic thing, I think that often or some of us are predisposed to want to do that. If we start realizing, oh, my God, we're really starting to drift apart. And somehow, you know, you have the ability, the opportunity, whatever, to do it. You're like, oh, let's go on a big trip together. I'm not saying don't do that. But it's not like a magic bullet that's going to fix everything because, yeah, you do. Like a kind of big, grand romantic thing. Yeah. That's super meaningful and it can be super fun. And you might feel like really close together when you take away all, you know, you remove yourself from the environment that you're in, you go somewhere new, you're spending all this time together, and it can feel really good. And it's like, okay, yeah, we got it back. But then the challenge is, is come back home to wherever you are, you're done with the romantic gesture. And then what? You kind of just settle back into the routine that you're in. And that's why we say it's more about these little things, as little things that are, you know, where you slowly start developing habits of doing these little things all the time. And that's why you can't just skip over the little stuff and go to the big stuff. Like, the big stuff is great. And if you're doing the little stuff, then for sure do the big stuff too. And I wanted to call that out because I know a lot of people listening might be like, great, like, we're going on vacation in two weeks. So like, like, I'm just gonna make it super special and that's gonna solve things for us.

Yeah. So we planned this episode out that it would land when we are in the middle of our 30 day connection challenge. This is one of our most popular and in demand challenges. We have only ever offered it twice ever in the history of its existence. Only once this year. So we are gonna be closing it down this time as well. So definitely make sure to check it out. It is all about small, actionable ways to rebuild intimacy. We're talking a couple minutes a day because again, we understand, like, people are busy and overwhelmed. So every day you get an email with a question of the day and an action challenge, and you get to choose which one feels the most interesting and intimacy building to you or both. If you're ambitious, you can do both for sure. Again, we designed them to just take a couple of minutes a day. So even if you don't, you did both. Like, it would. It still wouldn't take that much time. The other really important thing to know about this is that there Is no physical intimacy required? Like, you don't have to have sex? We do have our 30 day sex challenge as well, but this is all about emotional intimacy because we know that this is something so many couples are struggling with.

We do find, though, that many couples report back that once they start doing the connection challenge, they find themselves naturally having more sex. Because very often you need connection in order for both parties to want to have sex.

You're spoiling one of our upcoming listener questions.

Oh, I'm so sorry. To that listener whose question I already answered. So if you want to check out the connection challenge, you're going to want to go to vmtherapy.com connection. That's vmtherapy.com/connection. And yeah, you gotta join us anytime through Sunday, October 23rd. On the 23rd, we are closing it down because everyone is starting on Monday the 24th. You're going to be super connected going into the Thanksgiving and beyond holidays. Think about how that is going to feel.

Oh, yeah, to like, be able to go into the holiday season, which tends to be the busiest, wildest season for most couples and families, like to be able to go into that already feeling connected, a solid foundation, you're on solid ground. Like, it's just gonna make the end of the year so much better and happier.

And yeah, yeah, the holidays suck when you're disconnected. It's tough because, because it's like there's all this talk about, oh, we love the holidays. We're so. It's, yeah. Traditions and family and we're all so connected. And then you're like, like, yeah, like we're saying we're connected, but like, we're not connected. And then it just feels like that, like, pushes you even further apart. So do yourself a favor, get some connection. Let us help you. It's super easy, it's super fun, and you're gonna love it. You're gonna like the way you look.

Thank you. All right, Bottom line, though, it's that growing apart is a very normal part of being in a long term relationship. And you can bounce, bounce back from it. Just remember, it's all about putting in effort in small, sustainable ways.

All right, let's do a couple more specific listener questions.

Okay.

So, all right, I guess I kind of ruined this one a little bit. But I want to increase intimacy to feel closer. But my partner only sees intimacy as sexual. What do you do?

Okay, so we talk about intimacy as being two twin flames of emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. But most people tend to be drawn towards One kind of intimacy over the other. And so that can lead to this feeling of, like, disconnection and friction and tension in a relationship.

And it's not necessarily one over the other, it's one before the other.

Yes.

Yeah. So, like, very often, like in this case, this person is saying their partner only sees intimacy as sexual. And that's actually interesting right there, that this person says that, because I think if you were to go ask this partner, what they would probably, probably tell you is, the way that I feel emotional intimacy is by being sexual with you and that we have sex, and then I have this feeling of emotional intimacy afterwards. However, you know, the person asking the question very likely is a emotional intimacy before physical intimacy type of person. Like, they want to feel connected emotionally before they are open to having sex. And so, you know, if that is your type, then it's really easy to see the opposite type as, oh, they don't even want emotional intimacy, they just want sex. And the reality is most of us do want the same things. It's just the order that we want them in tends to be different, and we misunderstand each other and we kind of write the other up like, it's easy, like, oh, well, you never want sex. And then the other one's like, you always want sex. You only want sex. You don't want the other stuff.

So definitely go Check out episode 38 of the podcast because we talk all about this.

All right, next question is, how do I give my partner space while continuing to grow as a couple?

You know, I think we talked a little bit about this when we talked about the hobbies thing that, like, it is important for partners in a relationship to still maintain some sense of individuality, to have your own interests, your own things that you're doing on your, you know, by yourself, and also to have have, you know, joint shared things. So, to me, a lot of this actually feels like it comes down to more of, like, a logistical conversation of how much time do you guys realistically have in your lives to dedicate to, like, solo activities and couples activities and figuring out how do you make the space for both of those things? So if your partner wants to go golfing, figuring out, like, how many times a week is it realistic for them to spend a couple of hours, like, out on the course, and is that going to work if you guys also want to have, like, a weekly date night or something like that? So obviously, there can be a lot of emotions behind this question and a lot of, like, bigger conversations you could have. But I would Start with just sitting down and looking at your schedules and seeing, like, where do we have the space for each of these types of things?

I think another. Another thing that comes up for me when I read this question is that I think it's really easy to feel like, oh, well, if my partner wants to do different things or, you know, we each find ourselves wanting to do different things and spending time apart, then if we're not together for X number of hours, then how can we possibly grow as a couple or stay connected? And I want to reframe this a bit because we were talking about how it is important to have separate things to do. It's like, if you are giving each other space to do whatever it is that you want to do, can you see that as an opportunity for when you come back together, you guys have something to talk about. Like, ask them questions, like, oh, how was it? I mean, I guess if you gave golf as an example, like, oh, like, how was. How was. I played golf a couple of times. I enjoy it. I would like to play. I would like to golf more.

You don't know any golf examples right now.

Yeah, but it's like, oh, like, how was it? How was. How was the. How was the ninth hole? I heard the ninth hole is pretty. Pretty hard on that course. But no, just like, just asking questions, trying to learn a bit more about the thing that your partner's interested in, even if you're not that interested in it. Like. Like, I really do appreciate Vanessa asked me questions about surfing, even though I know Vanessa is not going to start surfing anytime soon. She's kind of scared of it. She's not that interested in it, but she's interested in me and my experience. And so I appreciate that. And so I think, can you see it as an opportunity to just grow in terms of understanding for each other, asking each other questions, learning more about each other.

How's that south swell, babe?

Babe, it's coming up tomorrow. Tomorrow we got more. More south swell.

Shoulder high or overhead?

Not overhead, sadly.

Do you love paddling out?

Yeah. No, I don't. You know, sometimes it's hard.

Those fins are pretty cool. Yeah, I could keep going all day.

Well, I'm just going to move us along to the next question after that. All right. How do you even broach the topic of reconnecting? Like, how do I tell my partner I'm feeling unloved and like, we've grown apart without them feeling hurt or it turning into another fight?

This was a very common question that.

Came up so well first tip, don't lead with we're growing apart.

Yeah. I mean, so I think the interesting thing here is, like, the chances are your partner already knows what's going on. Like, it's not some huge secret or like a bombshell that you're about to drop on them. But I do think oftentimes when people bring this up, they kind of turn it into a finger pointing type of thing. Like, you've been golfing the last five days and you don't never spend any time with me and da, da, da. You know, we kind of wait until we're really frustrated and resentful and fed up. So instead of that, because that's never gonna go over well. Like, instead of blaming or finger pointing, describe how you are feeling. So, like, let your partner know, like, I miss you, I love you. Our relationship is important to me. Tell them you're ready and excited to be close again. So if you are framing this in your experience, it's going to be so much easier for your partner to hear. And like, you know, there's nothing to argue about with you saying, like, I miss you and I love you and I want us to have a little bit more quality time together.

Yeah. It's like instead of jumping to the diagnosis, like, talk about the symptoms. Like, talk about what is actually going on for you. The feelings. Yeah, because there's less to argue about there. Because if you just jump to all these things are happening and we're growing apart, then your partner kind of then goes into defensive mode. They focus on, oh, no, let me try to like, break down your argument about us growing. No, we're not growing apart because blah, blah, blah, versus if it's like, hey, I'm. I'm just feeling like I'm really missing you. I haven't had much time with you and I really miss you. Your partner isn't gonna.

How dare you.

No, you don't. No, I mean, if they are, then they're just totally gaslighting you. And that's messed up. Up in its own way. But, like, yeah, there's. There's less to argue with when you're leading with how you're feeling.

Yeah. And so similarly, if you're hearing us talk about the connection challenge and you're like, oh, my God, this sounds really great, but how do I bring up doing this with my partner? Like, we've got a little script for you that you can copy. You can change it into your own words, but you can do a very similar thing to what we just described. Like, say Something like, you know, I know that life has really gotten in the way of us recently, and I miss you. I want to reconnect. I listen to this podcast about relationships and they're doing a 30 day connection challenge. It takes just a few minutes a day. I feel really excited about it. It feels like this fun thing that you and I could do together, like, just us. Do you want to sign up? So something like that again, it's. You're talking about your experience, your excitement about it. You're making it feel like a fun and a great thing rather than like, we have really grown apart and our relationship sucks and now we have to sign up for this thing. It's like, so that we can, like, fix it. Like, that's gonna sound terrible.

Yeah. And talk about the. The reasons why you, like, feeling connected. Like, what is it like for you? Like, oh, like, I feel so much closer. I. I want to do more things with you. It makes me feel, like, excited about being physical with you. You know, just whatever it is, like, talk about the good stuff rather than everything is so wrong. And therefore we have to do this. I want to do this, this. Because when we do this, I feel X, Y and Z. All these positive things. All right, so one last time. If you do want to join the 30 day connection challenge, the doors are only open until the end of day Sunday, October 23rd. So if you're listening before this, you have time to sign up. If you're listening after. Very sorry. I guess we haven't edited this out yet, but yeah, you're going to want to go over to VM Connection to join and make sure you do it before Sunday or end of day Sunday. And that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we answer the question, am I being unreasonable?

Oh, we have some really good examples from our audience of fights that they've been getting into or disagreements in their relationship. And we're gonna decide who's the one who's being unreasonable.

Yeah, we're gonna give it to you straight.

See you later, alligator.

Bye, newt. In a while, crocodile. I was trying to. I can't think of any kind of Newt. I'll neut you later.

Yep, that's a new saying. Neutralator.

See ya in the newt year.

No.

Just kidding. I'll see you in a couple minutes.

What?

I don't know. I mean, I'm seeing you right now. You're not. You're not going anywhere. Wow. I guess you guys are just getting a weird Easter egg at the end of this episode. All right, bye.