Episode 78: Initiation: What You And Your Partner Are Doing Wrong - And How To Get It Right

Why, hello there. This is Xander from the future jumping in to this episode, which was recorded a long time ago to let you know something, which is that throughout this episode, you're going to hear us talk about a masterclass called Initiation 101. But we have a good news, bad news situation for you. We at this point have officially retired the Initiation 101 masterclass, but only because we've turned it into something even better, which is a brand new course called the Art of Initiation.

So here's how this change came about. We put up a poll on Instagram. It was just a casual little thing. We were asking, like, are you happy with the way initiation works in your relationship? Something like 50,000 people responded to that initial poll and the results were shocking. Only 17% of people said that initiation is working in their relationship. So our minds were blown by this. And we thought, we've got to go back to the drawing board with this initiation thing. Like clearly we need more resources, more help. So we actually did a follow up survey. We asked people to tell us more about what's going on with initiation in their relationship, what are their frustrations? And we realized that bad initiation is also the root cause of so many bigger issues like low libido, mismatched libidos, loss of attraction, infrequent sex, unpleasurable and unfulfilling sex, less non sexual physical intimacy, resentments, arguments, and disconnection. So we thought we need a much more comprehensive, much deeper resource to help people address their initiation. So we can also address all of these larger issues too.

So in the Art of Initiation, you will discover practical ways to create and sustain more emotional intimacy. Because when you feel like roommates rather than romantic partners, having sex just feels like a huge leap, right?

You're also going to learn why differing libidos don't need to stop you from experiencing the intimacy you both deserve. And how skillful initiation can actually bridge the gap.

How to confidently know and express exactly what turns you on and get the same information from your partner.

The game changing initiation questions you never knew to ask, including how your ideal conditions can turn a no into an oh yes, please. This is one of our favorite parts of the entire course. It is such a game changer.

You're going to get our step by step guidelines for alluring initiation and 61 creative and exciting examples of how to initiate.

The secret to staying connected. Even if one of you isn't open to having sex in a particular moment.

And your real reasons for saying yes. And hint here, being horny actually has Very little to do with it.

So you can go to vmtherapy.com initiation to check out all the details. I think you are going to be shocked when you see what the price is for this course because there is so much in here addressing all of those issues that we were talking about earlier and a truly, truly incredible price. So go to vmtherapy.com initiation to check it out. So many of us have woven a very complicated web with initiation, and we want to make this episode to help you untangle it, to help you understand, like, why is initiation so complicated? Why is it stirring up so many feelings on either side of it? And how can we get it right? Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So we've got a little bit of a backstory on today's episode. Originally, this started off as a YouTube video, and it was inspired by a DM that we got on Instagram, so we're covering all of our channels here. We got this DM on Instagram from a husband who said, my wife gets really annoyed with me whenever I initiate sex. And I just. I don't understand. I don't know what to do. And so we decided to make a quick little YouTube video about it. And Xander and I were brainstorming, like, you know, we didn't get the full story. We just got literally that question. So we're like, okay, what do we think could be the possibilities? Why might this wife be annoyed that he's initiating? And so I started rattling off possibilities. Andrew was taking notes. I started rattling off possibilities, and within 60 seconds, I'd say I had 10. Like, you couldn't keep up with me.

Oh, yeah.

Type fast enough for how many reasons I came up with.

Yeah. I was like, oh, cool, we're going to record, you know, a quick, like, five to seven minute YouTube video. I'm just gonna ask Vanessa, oh, what are a couple of reasons why this is happening? And she would, you know, give two or three. And Vanessa's like, oh, I have 10 or more. And I was like, huh, okay. Maybe YouTube isn't really the right place for this one.

So we decided we've gotta do a whole podcast about this. Cause this is clearly. There's a lot of. A lot of meat here.

Yeah.

Meat. Wow. I don't think I've ever said that before.

Meat on the bone.

It's meaty.

Let's pick that meat off the bone, girl. That. That might be why your partner is annoyed when you initiate sex. If you're talking about picking meat off the bone.

Yeah, that's not a good way to initiate. Definitely don't use that. So, as always, we turned over to Instagram. Well, it started in Instagram. We went back to Instagram. We asked people like, do you regularly get annoyed at your partner when they initiate? And 50% of people said yes. So this wasn't a. Have you ever gotten annoyed? It was like, regularly getting annoyed when your partner initiates.

That's a lot. That's a lot. Half of are regularly are not excited. Nay, they are annoyed.

A big thank you to Storyworth for supporting our podcast. Storyworth is a meaningful gift you and your family can treasure forever. And you can get started right away. Go to storyworth.compillow to get $10 off your first purchase. Yeah. So initiation is obviously something a lot of us are struggling with. There's annoyance, there's frustration, there's vulnerability. There's vulnerability.

There's fear of doing it in the first place. I mean, this is a. It's like a huge double whammy. So many people are scared to initiate sex, feel really vulnerable doing it, feel really timid. And on the flip side, like, now you also have to contend with the possibility that your partner gets annoyed when you initiate. Like, it's.

Yes. And if we look at it from the perspective of the partner who's getting annoyed, like, there are things that are coming up for you around not feeling seen, loved, respected. Actually, we got a really great quote from Instagram that I think illustrates some of the complicated dynamics that can come up. Someone said, I feel like I'm just an object for their sexual pleasure and not a human that they love. So there are obviously a lot of ways that we're missing each other with initiation, misunderstanding each other, and of course, not ending up having physical intimacy. So many of us have woven a very complicated web with initiation, and we want to make this episode to help you untangle it, to help you understand, like, why is initiation so complicated? Why is it stirring up so many feelings on either side of it? And how can we get it right? Because we can't have a sex life without initiation. Right. Somebody has to get things started. So we've got to figure out how to do initiation right in our relationships.

But first, we're going to give you the review of the week.

Look at you making a transition.

I did. So unbeknownst to all you listeners, very often I miss the review of the week. Like Vanessa. Vanessa just rocks the intro and I'm like, oh, yeah. She just set us up to like go straight into the episode. And so I'm just sitting here, like, twiddling my thumbs, not saying anything, and there's like a 10 second pause. And Vanessa looks at me, goes, hey, buddy, you got the review of the week to do.

Is that what my voice sounds like in your head?

Oh, you don't, you don't want to. You. I can't. I am not able to reproduce high enough pitched noise.

High pitched voice.

Yeah, but I. I can't do vanilla. I have to do falsetto.

Yeah. I feel like I frequently set you up with nice. Like, speaking of getting it right, let's get right into the Q and A.

That's, that's good. Speaking of getting it right, let's hear about what we're doing right with this podcast.

Usually I just get like a blank stare from Xander. I'm like, buddy, you gotta do the review of the week.

You know, one of these days. One of these days we'll, we'll leave. We'll leave that in. Or, or maybe even better, we could. We could have Art, our podcast editor, put together a compilation. A compilation. I mean, it would kind of be a pain in the ass to go through, but, like, I'm guessing, like 50 of the episodes.

There's 50. 97.

Wow.

Yeah.

All right. Yeah. I mean, I think there could be a great compilation of silence. Oh. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right. Well, you know, speaking of getting it right, let's see what we're getting right about this podcast. Because it's the review of the week. Oh, yeah. We have a jingle and everything. Xander and Vanessa are amazing. Hell, yeah. Well, I couldn't have set myself up any better than that. I've been listening to Vanessa and Xander on my own for a couple months now. Recently, my husband and I went on a road trip by ourselves with no kids. And then one of those moments where we're like, okay, well, what are we going to talk about? I said, well, would you want to listen to this podcast with me? Not only did he love the wittiness of Xander and Vanessa, it opened up the doors of communication for us and helped me talk about topics that I'm not always open and comfortable discussing and gave a calm and relaxed atmosphere. Over the weekend, we had a 12 hour car ride and four episodes to listen to. It was a great addition to our road trip.

Oh, I like that review.

That's awesome. We love listening to podcasts on road trips. Not only do they help make the road trip go way faster than music, in my opinion, but I think it's just, it's such a good, like, conversation starter. So really low pressure way to talk about potentially serious topics or topics that could be high pressure in other situations. Because it's like these people say about it. What do you think about it?

You can like pause it and check in and see. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Is there something we left out? And when you're talking about a podcast, it feels less personal. Right. You're just like, oh, yeah, this is what they're saying on the podcast versus you feeling like, hey, we need to sit down and have a conversation about initiation. Right. It just like makes it easier to start having those conversations and talk about those topics.

Yeah. And I think it gives you permission to really examine all the different sides of something or to give you permission to talk about something, how you feel about something, without needing to feel like, okay, I've totally considered this. This is exactly what I think, or exactly how I feel. You can kind of test the waters of it a bit. And I think that's one of the reasons why communication gets difficult in partnerships. Because when it's. When it's like, okay, we gotta sit down and talk about this, you can feel like, oh my God, like I'm on the spot and I have to decide right now exactly how I feel about this. And when I, once I say it, it's gonna be like, written in stone. And I can't change my mind. And just, you know, talking about it sort of in the podcast context, you can kind of be like, oh, huh, Yeah, I haven't really thought about that, but I could see it like this. I could see it like that. And then you listen a little more and see if you get some more info. And you're like, okay, yeah, now I'm starting to get a little more solid in what I think. So great.

Well, we love getting your reviews. And the reviews go such a long way in helping the podcast grow, helping us get in front of new people, helping people realize like, hey, this looks like an interesting podcast. I'll check it out.

I could listen to this too on my 12 hour road trip.

So we do a review of the week giveaway every week. How it works is if you go over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. It doesn't have to be long, could just be a sentence or two. But you will be entered into the giveaway every week going forward. And if you are selected as the review of the week, you can come over to Instagram. We're at vanessamarin Therapy. Or maybe we're at Vanessa and Xander right now. Check both. We're in the midst of some changes on Instagram, but you can DM us with a question and we will send you back a personalized mini coaching session with our best feedback, advice and tips. We're also thinking about switching up the review of the week prize too. So just a little teaser, you know, there might be some other things coming.

Exciting.

So definitely leave us a little review. We do really genuinely appreciate it. If you've gotten anything out of the podcast, it would mean the world to us to just take a second to leave a quick review. Okay, so let's get into it. At the end of the day, we came up with 11 reasons why your partner might be annoyed or frustrated or just not open to it when you initiate sex. We had to stop at 11. I think I would have kept going. I've got some more in me.

Or just like 11 reasons why one might feel annoyed during sex and what we can do to start dissipating that annoyance, perhaps changing both of our behaviors so that initiation can be more fun and exciting and less annoying.

Yes. So we want to give a quick little disclaimer here. Inclusivity is really important to us and we try not to be gendered in our content. We just want to note that the vast majority of the responses that we got were from women complaining about their male partners. So you may hear us use some gender language in it because of those dynamics. But we do just want to call out like these dynamics can come up for people of any gender, any orientation. So.

And part of the reason for that is that the vast majority of people who follow us on Instagram are women. So if you are a man listening to this or if you have a partner who is a man listening to this, get your partner to follow us on Instagram because we love hearing from you, we love getting your feedback and having as balanced of a perspective as possible. But one other thing I will say about this is that, you know, looking back in our relationship history, I can definitely see some times where I have been annoyed when you have initiated sex. And so I definitely can talk about, you know, stuff that has come up for me or, you know, some of these that I particularly relate with and give a bit of my perspective too.

Okay, so let's jump right into it with number one, these aren't in any particular order, but I will say this was one of the most common responses that came up. So this is your partner got annoyed or frustrated because of the way that you initiated. One quote that we got from Instagram was any sort of boob, butt or genital groping to initiate. In fact, 76% of our audience say that they get annoyed when their partner initiates by just being grabby like that. It's a huge source of frustration. And I think that goes back to that quote that I read at the beginning. You know, in the intro of this episode. It, for some people can lead to this feeling of like, you're just seeing me as a sexual object or a way of like, of gratifying your sexual needs rather than a human being. Like you're just grabbing at my boobs out of nowhere. Grabbing straight for my genitals out of nowhere. I think it's a jarring experience, especially for a lot of women. Somebody else wrote in and said he never snuggles or wants to be intimate with me unless he wants sex. So as soon as he starts, I know that's what he wants. And a similar one, somebody else said he does it the same way every time. A massage that gets sexy at the end and makes me not enjoy the massage because I know what's coming every time. So there's this sense of like, my partner's only reaching out to me because they want something from me.

So yeah, non sexual touch, people. Non sexual touch is a very important part of a relationship. And it's, you know, I can understand. It's easy to get into a place where you're touch starved and then, you know, if you're touch starved, you're not having non sexual touch. And you're also not having a lot of sex. And so eventually you're feeling like, oh, well, I just like really want some sex. But it's like you gotta delay that a bit and work the non sexual touch back into the relationship. It's so important. It creates so many problems when you don't have enough of it.

Yeah. And I think even when you are having sexual touch to don't immediately go for the genitals and, you know, for the breasts and the butt and stuff like that. It's like there may be Some people that like that. And again, this is where this is.

Some people do.

This is the area where, like, this is so great to listen to with your partner. And you can pause and say, hey, are you part of that 76% who doesn't like this, or are you part of the 24% that does like this, this, or is neutral to this? So grabby touch is just one example of not liking the way that your partner initiates. There are a million different reasons why you might not like your partner's particular technique. So if you're somebody who gets annoyed when your partner initiates, it is important for you to recognize you have to coach your partner. For your partner. They're probably initiating in this way because they think it's sexy or, like, they would love it if you initiated with them this way. And so they might just not understand that that's not turns you on.

Yeah, I think so many of these things come down to, you know, the challenge of, like, it's so easy for us to see the world through our own eyes, or, you know, assume that everybody sees the world the same way that we do. And so much of this is just realizing, oh, okay, this may be what I like. That doesn't mean that's what my partner likes. Or this may be how things work for me, but it's not how things necessarily work for my partner.

Yeah, I mean that. This is why we created the initiation styles model, kind of similar to the love languages of recognizing. Like, what are our unique ways of enjoying initiation or of initiating and recognizing? They are probably not the same as our partners. So you've got to coach your partner, and that means you need to take some time to think about, like, what are the ways of initiating that would excite you, that would feel good to you? So someone on Instagram said, like, the best way for me to get in the mood is when my partner helps me get things done that are on my list. I feel relief after, and I'm able to be turned on. So that's a great example of something that you could share with your partner, like, a specific technique that you can tell them. And we will say, if this is just a big struggle for you, we will put a link in the show notes to Initiation 101. That's our masterclass, where we walk you through more exciting and appealing ways to initiate. We give you tons of examples. So if you're sitting here listening to us say, like, I just. I don't know what ways of initiating would excite me. We'll give you examples and you can share with your partner.

Yeah, I think that's so important because, you know, one of the things that we all always tell people is, like, it's way better to say do this instead versus don't do this. Like, if you. Or it's. It's okay to say don't do this, but pair that with don't do this and do this instead. But I think a lot of people struggle because they're like, okay, well, I know what I don't want. Like, I don't want the thing that's happening right now, but I'm stuck. I don't know what to say to do instead. And that's where that initiation masterclass is really going to help out. But so I think that's really the key here, is that I think a lot of people get into this pattern of just being like, no, don't do that. No, don't do that. And if you're on the receiving end of that, then you just kind of throw up your hands at a certain point, go, I don't understand. Like, everything I do, they just say no. And then you start doing kind of like initiating in these jokey ways or in the more gropy ways. You're like, I just screw it. Like, and then you kind of don't care because it's like, well, it doesn't matter what I do. They're just going to say no to everything. So I think it's so important to pair that no with a no, no. But here's something that could be really successful.

Okay, moving on to reason number two. This one's closely related, but we wanted to pull it out and talk about it separately, and that's how often you initiate. This may be something that's annoying or frustrating your partner as well. So somebody on Instagram said he is constantly trying, literally every day, multiple times a day. We like to call this the. The spray and pray approach. You're just like. You're trying to maximize your chances of getting a yes. So you're just like, let me initiate as often as I can. Maybe one of these times I'll get a yes.

I feel like this often manifests itself in. It's not necessarily like an intentional initiation. It turns. It's like these jokey initiations. And, you know, like, for example. Or it's like, anytime you say something about, like, sitting, it's like, oh, well, why don't you sit on my face? Or, you know, or like, that's what she said, or something like that. And it's like. I mean, it's sort of partially like a psychological defense mechanism. I think. Like, there's part of you that is wanting to be initiating, but you're like, oh, well, if I'm making a joke, it's not really real. Or it's like, oh, I just like to joke about this. But then the reality is, what's more important is how are you being perceived by your partner? And, like, your partner is perceiving that you are constantly initiating. So not only are your jokes not funny, but not only is the joke not funny because you're wearing it out, but then, like, they are dreading you. You initiating sex.

You know what this reminds me of? Like, I think that's a good point that you brought up that, like, they may not even really be that intentional about wanting to initiate. Like, it's kind of funny to think if you were to say, okay, yeah, sure, let's go right now. Like, there might be a bunch of times where your partner's actually like, oh.

God, I'm not ready.

Oh, I actually didn't mean that.

I didn't think that was gonna work kind of thing.

It reminds me of. God, I can't remember what this was, but there was some, like, female comedian, or maybe it was on a TV show or something like that, where she started talking back to guys who were catcall her on the street. Obviously this is like, a more nuanced and complex thing, but she's like, yeah, okay, let's go. You know, and the guys were just like, I've got a wife. Like, I've got a wife and kids. I was just joking, you know, that kind of thing. Like. Yeah, I think especially when we talk about male and female relationships, a lot of men just sort of feel like that's their role to be constantly bringing it up, constantly, like, have it on the table. But he might not even actually want it in those moments.

So our suggestion is call him out.

No, don't.

I mean, unless you actually want to joke around.

Yeah.

With it. That could be a playful way. But, yeah, if you're feeling super annoyed or resentful about your partner, maybe not the best thing to be. Like, all right, buddy, let's go.

Yeah. The spray and pray method, it's just. It does not end up feeling good for your partner. It's probably translating to, like, a lot of pressure, and it's just not fun. So I think the. The solution for this one is to actually be intentional about when you're truly initia and to also be conscious about how often are you doing it? Like, if you know you're doing it multiple times a day every day, like, does that really feel reasonable? Number three was another one of our most popular responses, and that is waiting until it's too late at night.

We have been very guilty of this one in the past.

So guilty. And a whopping 91% of our Instagram audience says that they can relate to this frustration. One person said, I'm really tired after a long day, or I'm totally asleep, which is even worse.

Someone else said, we'll be laying in bed for 30 minutes, and the second I turn off the light to sleep, that's when he wants it.

And somebody else said, we had all day. Why now at 11pm I can also.

Say, like, you know, if you are the person that is doing the initiating late at night, we'll get into why this is a bad idea and what you should do instead. But I can see how it just. It can. Can feel, like, even higher pressure because you're like, okay, like, it's the end of the day and now. If we don't do it now, we're not going to do it today at all. Like, I have to wait until tomorrow. Like, you know, unless, you know, if you work a more traditional schedule, it's like, I'm not even going to be able to do it tomorrow until, like, way later in the day. And so then it, yeah, like, you can just come in really hot and heavy because it's like, oh, God, like, like, I missed all my chances earlier. Now this is the last chance ever. I'm like, otherwise, I have to wait until tomorrow night.

But it's just, yeah, the end of the night, it's just too hard. Like, when you're crawling into bed, you've had a long day, you're exhausted, you just want to sleep. That is such a tough time to get genuinely excited about intimacy.

Yeah. You don't want anyone doing that calculation in their head. I know most of you have been there. I've been there myself, where it's like, okay, if we do this right now, how long is it? How many minutes is it going to take? How much time? You know, how much less sleep am I going to get? I have to get up at this time. And then, you know, okay, add another half hour on because it's going to be hard to fall asleep right afterwards. But then, like, oh, but, like, what if it isn't a quickie? What if, like, there's, you know, a struggle? We aren't sorry. Like, what if Like, I have performance issues. What if I can't get it up? Blah, blah, blah. And then, like, all of a sudden, you've, like, created this whole, like, crazy scenario in your mind, and you haven't even done anything yet. That sucks.

So, obviously, most of us are really busy, and sometimes it can feel like we don't have any free time until the end of the night. But we really want to encourage you to prioritize sex as early in the day as you can. This is our little variation of the fuck first rule. Trying to do it earlier. When you have that time and that energy. You also should definitely have a conversation in your relationship about, like, you know, what does it feel like for you when you guys try to initiate at the end of the night? Does that feel like, look, this is genuinely just the only time we have to connect? Or does that feel like, buddy, if you initiate when we're in bed and I'm about to go to sleep, it's just not gonna happen? And definitely have a conversation about waking each other up for sex, because this is very polarizing.

Oh, yes.

Some people are like, oh, like, okay, we've had some experiences of Xander waking me up in the middle of the night for sex, and that's been some of the hottest sex we've ever had. So I'm like, go ahead, wake me up. I'm down for it. But I'd say the vast majority of people are like, you disturb my sleep.

And I will kill you.

Like, do not wake me up first for sex. So definitely have a conversation about that. Another option is to schedule sex. If you pick specific days that you're gonna do it. And you can have that in your head going into the evening thinking, like, okay, yes, I know. You know, once the kids go to bed, I know I've got a bunch of chores to knock out, but today is our scheduled sexy date night day. So I'm gonna do that first, and then I'll do all the chores later after that. You know, it just kind of gives you a different way of. Of thinking about it and getting prepared for it and excited for it. And so we will also link in the show notes. We have a really great 19 masterclass called Bring youg Sex Life Back to Life that walks you step by step techniques for scheduling sex in a fun way, not in a dreaded, oh, this is so boring and terrible kind of way.

Yeah. I mean, and think about how good it is to get into bed after a long, hard day. You're super tired, and be like, yeah, we already had sex. We are good. Hell, yeah. I am just passing the fuck out.

I actually, there's. Sometimes I have, like, this sense of accomplishment. I'm like, I did so much today. I had a great day. We already had sex. I just get to go right to sleep. It's a great feeling. I don't know if that's the type A in me coming out, but it's a good feeling. Before we go any further, let's talk a little bit more about Storyworth. You know, I know a lot of people don't like giving gifts for a lot of different reasons. And I think one of the biggest complaints that we hear is, like, it's hard to find something that feels meaningful. Like you don't want to get your. Your partner or your mom, like another sweater or socks. You know, it just kind of feels boring. So that's why we're so excited to be partnering with Storyworth again. If you have been a loyal pillow talks listener, you know that we've signed my parents both up for Storyworth, and they have both been doing it for, gosh, several months now and, like, still really loving it. And I'm just so excited every week when I see the questions come through, Storyworth sends me, like, a little sneak peek email, so. So I get to see what questions are going out. And I'm already building up all this anticipation for seeing the finished product at the end of the year. I just saw that my mom got the question, tell me what your mom was like growing up. And I'm very interested to hear that one. Cause it's like, you know, with my grandma, I have my own relationship with her, but she's always been grandma, and she's always been older and like. So I'm just very curious to know what she was like as a mom. As you know, she was a very young mom when she had my mom. So I'm sure there are a lot of stories. And we have been talking to my parents throughout these last few months, and they've both been telling us, like, we're really enjoying this, and it just feels like a very meaningful gift. We know it's gonna be so meaningful when it's done. We can't wait to give it to you. So I just could not be more thrilled to be partnering with Storyworth because it's really a gift that we can get behind and that we're excited to experience on our own. So I got a little ahead of myself. I just went on my rant about how much I love it. But in case you have not heard of Storyworth before. Every week what they do is they email your loved one a life related question and you can even pick them if you want to, but they email the question off. Your loved one types in their response. And after a year, Storyworth compiles all of those weekly responses into a really beautiful hardcover book. And you can add pictures and little mementos and stuff like that. So it becomes this really valuable keepsake that you get to treasure. So with Storyworth, I am giving those I love most a thoughtful personal gift from the heart and preserving their memories and stories for years to come. You can go to storyworth.compillow and save $10 on your first purchase. That's storyworth.compillow to save $10 on your 1st purchase. Number 4, your partner gets annoyed with you for initiating because they were in the middle of doing something. We've actually broken down this category, the like in the middle of doing something into two different things pieces. So the one we're going to talk about here in number four is they were doing something for you or for the family. So 68% of our audience said that this is something that commonly comes up in their relationship. And the most frequent thing that is getting interrupted is cooking. So we got so many quotes that were like, I was literally in the middle of cooking and Feeding 4 Children dinner. That's the time my partner chooses to initiate.

You can't. There's not a pause button on the oven or the burners.

There is not. So we had a really interesting conversation about this one because I think there are so many dynamics that get wrapped up in it. I think a lot of times this can bring up like a responsibility imbalance. It might feel like for one partner, they might feel like, I'm so busy, I'm doing so many things that sex is the last thing on my mind. While the other. It might feel to them like the other partner seems to have the time and the space for it. It can bring up frustrations around how you've divided responsibilities or mental load. Like, yeah, you just get to come in here and like, wait for me to cook your dinner. And I'm the one like slaving over the stove and I already did the grocery shopping and planning what all the meals were gonna be. So there's a lot of stuff that can get stirred up by this. So we've got a couple of tips. Like, one is that if your partner gets annoyed with you for interrupting them, you've really gotta be careful about choosing your mom, like in the middle of dinner. I think that's a pretty universal, like, if somebody's cooking, they don't want to be interrupted. No, those kinds of moments are great, but also to be able to express appreciation for your partner. You know, if your partner's getting really irritated in those moments, I bet that there's a pretty high likelihood that they're also just feeling like, I do so much for you, for this family, and like. Like, sex just feels like yet another thing that's putting. Being put on my to do list. And I don't feel like anybody's recognizing me for all the things that I'm doing. So I'd really lean in pretty hard on, like, showing your partner appreciation and. And recognizing, like, hey, I see you doing that. I'm really grateful that you're doing that. And seeing if there's any way that you guys need to be splitting up responsibilities differently. I will say, though, we also got into a really interesting conversation about the whole idea behind being interrupted. So I'll say for myself, like, there have been times where you have, like, interrupted me to initiate sex or even just like, for a moment of physical intimacy, and I have felt frustrated. There have even been times where I felt disrespected, where it's like, dude, do you not see that I'm literally in the middle of something? Or, like, I'm doing something so important and, like, you're trying to, like. So I get it. I get the frustration of, like, I don't feel seen when you're initiating in this way. And there have also been times where I've really enjoyed being interrupted because it gave me this feeling of, like, you, like, Xander, you wanted me so badly that you could not wait another moment. It's like, no, no, I can't wait until you finish folding the laundry. Like, I need to have you right now. And I think so many of us, especially in long term relationships, like, we miss that feeling of being so desired by our partner. Like, we think back with fondness to the early stages of our relationship where it feels like, you know, our partner would just get turned on by the tiniest little thing and they had to have us in that moment. So I kind of go back and forth for myself on this whole interruption thing where I'm like, sometimes it feels so good to be wanted that badly, and sometimes it feels so bad to be interrupted.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us can relate with that feeling of being really torn. Cause it's like, on the one hand we say, like, hey, I want to see my Partner, like, really want me. I want to see them, like, put in work for me. I want to see them. I want to know how much I'm wanted. And then when they do that, it's like, oh, wait, but. But not like that, and not like that and not like that. And so, yeah, it's tough. It's like, we want this thing, and then we get the thing, and then we're like, oh, I don't know. Maybe. I don't. So, yeah, it's tough.

I did come up with. I think this is a pretty good workaround for this, though. So if you see your partner in the middle of doing. Okay, so actually that's even just another tip in and of itself is like, I think it's important for us to sort of pay attention to our partners and, like, see the things that they're doing throughout the day, rather than just, like, seeing them as the. The object for our sexual gratification. Like that quote earlier.

Earlier.

So here's the workaround is to say to your partner, I see that you're in the middle of doing something, but I just want you to know that I think you are so sexy right now. And I wish we were alone or I wish we had time. So you're giving your partner that validation, that appreciation, that sense of being seen. You're also giving them that sense of, like. Of you desiring them and, like, feeling so attracted to them. And so if your partner's, like, in the middle of cooking and they're like, I'm not going to be interrupted right now. This is the crucial moment, then they get to just kind of, like, hopefully relish in that. That, like, h. That feels nice to know. Like, I wish. I wish I wasn't in the middle of cooking either. And it also opens up the possibility of. Let's say your partner is just, like, doing some paperwork, and they're like. Like, oh, okay, well, I could save this paperwork for later.

Oh, that's how sexy I am doing paperwork.

So it does give the space for you guys to be intimate if. If your partner's open to that, but if they're not open to that, like, it still can create a little moment of connection, I think.

Yeah. The other thing that I want to say about this, just, like, from my own experience, is this can be a challenging. I'll just speak for myself as a man, as a guy with penis, part of having sex at least partially feels like, well, I gotta be turned on. I gotta be able to. I gotta feel confident that I can get it up. And perform is that sometimes it can feel tough. Cause it's like in the mood strikes in. In a, quote, inconvenient moment, right? And you're like, God, like, I haven't been feeling very sexy recently. Or maybe I've been struggling. We haven't been having a lot of sex. Or when we have, I haven't felt super confident in my own performance or my own erection or whatever. And like, right now I'm pretty sure I'm like, wildly. I'm getting wildly turned on. And like, now is the moment. Like, we gotta do it. I've definitely been there myself. And it can just be like. And I felt motivated to just really push hard because I'm like, I've been struggling with this and like, and now is the time. But I think something that I've been discovering recently as a good workaround is, you know, you do what Vanessa just suggested. You say, hey, I see that you're doing this. And by the way, I really appreciate that you cook dinner every night. You know, I love your cooking. I appreciate that so much. And watching you, I'm just feeling wildly turned on right now. Like, I'd love to talk about this a little later when we have some time or something. So, yeah, you are saying, you know what? We're not going to do it right now. Even though I feel really turned on, I feel like, really confident that I'm going to perform, I'm going to be great, blah, blah, blah. And then when you come back to it later, you guys talk about what was happening in that moment and you can start sharing. Oh, my God. When you were cooking, I was watching. I was watching your butt. It was so sexy. And like, just talking about it, reenacting that moment. Like, not role playing per se, but just talking through. But yeah, you can role play it, but just starting to talk it through. Talk through. What were you seeing? What were you feeling? How was it feeling for you? What fantasy were you having or whatever? That is a really good way to kind of jumpstart those feelings and get back into it. So I just wanted to call that out because that's something that I have really learned over time is that it's. Yeah, right now it feels like I would really love to do it. And I feel like I can do it right now, but you can get that feeling later. You just have to be able to talk about it.

Okay. There's one other little wrinkle in this whole, like the interruption element of it that I want to call out as well. So if you're the one who frequently gets annoyed by your partner, like, interrupting you and initiating. In these moments when you were doing something like else, I think it's really important for you to think about whether or not you actually have the space for your partner to initiate in good times. So I asked our Instagram audience, I said, like, like, be honest, be brutally honest here. Like, do you actually have plenty of times in the day when you're not in the middle of the. Of a task and, like, your schedule is actually wide open for intimacy?

Oh, this, this is a tough question because I think a lot of us don't really want to fully look at that.

Oh, only 11% said that they have, like, wide open schedule, plenty of times for initiating.

Oh, well, this could be a problem.

Yeah, it's like, I, I totally resonate with that frustration of, like, oh, don't you see what I'm doing? Why are you picking this time? This is such a terrible time. And at the same time, I think we also have to recognize there may not be a better time for your partner to initiate. The only times that they might have to initiate are literally when they have to interrupt you doing something else.

Yeah. So I think, I mean, that's a great argument for your partner getting more involved, better balance the mental load so that ideally, your partner can perhaps help free up some more time for you. But then again, if you guys are both just, like, nose to the grindstone, there's literally no time. I mean, that, that sounds like a broader conversation just about relationship and life priorities. And I mean, that gets back to maybe the scheduling of it again, of like, okay, well, let's, let's reserve some time. Let's literally put it on the calendar. Like, we would put something else that's important to us on the calendar and then, you know, work the rest of the things around that on that given day. Day.

Okay. Number five is kind of like the part two of that one. So that might be. Your partner gets annoyed because they were doing something for themselves in that moment. So before, we were talking about they're doing something for you or the family. Now it's like they're doing something for themselves. So I think this can feel oftentimes, like, disrespectful. So one person reached out to us on Instagram and they said, my partner tries to initiate when I'm working out, but this is my only alone time in the day. Day.

Another person said, when I'm in the shower, I feel so gross from being with the kids all day and just want a moment to myself to wash away the day.

So I think what people are speaking to here is they want to feel supported by their partner in being able to have like little pockets of alone time, time for self care. And that if you're initiating in those moments, which I'm guessing like for your partner, it probably felt really hard to carve out that time in the first place. Feels like, you know, this is my three minutes a day that I get to be in the shower and be by myself. Like please just let me have this time. Like just support them in creating that time. And again. Another great conversation to have with your partner of like, what alone time do you need during the day? How can I support you in getting that? What are the things that are really crucial for your mental health or for your self care?

I think this can also be one where it's just like a basic conversation about like what are your, your individual schedules and what are your experiences like, like with your schedule? Because like I think one thing that could be happening here is like let's say one partner works like a 9 to 5 job in an office and they like commute to and from work. I think people that have those type of jobs, you, you can often get your sort of fill of alone time just naturally in going to work and coming back. Like depending on what kind of job it is. Maybe you even like work in a cubicle and you're like alone most of the day or you know, you're having interaction but like you're not like constantly with people or you know, or it's just like that 30 minute commute or something. Like you're kind of getting your fix of like, okay, cool, I can listen to a podcast, I can watch a YouTube video, whatever. You get home and you're like, cool. Like I've had my alone time. Like now I'm excited to see my partner. And I think it's so easy for us to just, just assume that everyone else works the same way that we do. And you forget, oh, my partner's been home with the kids. Or maybe my Partner works in 9 to 5 too, but they take the kids to and from school like on their way to work and on their way back and so their commute is not alone time at all. And so it's just like having an understanding of what is my partner's schedule like and how do they tend to experience life differently for me and just having some empathy for that. Because when we don't talk about it, when we don't think about it, it Just our default thing is, oh, well, it must be the way it is for me, for my partner.

Number six, you're not emotionally connected. So 86% of our audience on Instagram said that they feel annoyed when their partner doesn't show any sort of affection. There's no flirting, no nothing until it's time to initiate.

This is kind of. This is kind of like the boob honk one where we were like, oh, there's not enough, none sexual touch in your relationship. This is like the emotional version, the.

Emotional component of it. It's like, hello, stranger. Like, why are you just going straight into initiating sex? Like, I feel wildly disconnected from you. Like, that feels like way too much of a leap right now. So one person said, like, we argued earlier in the day and it's still unresolved. They think they can still ask for sex.

Yeah. Another person said, I feel so disconnected from my partner on a daily basis, but they don't seem to notice or kick care. So there's always zero connection prior to initiating.

So this is an episode entirely in and of itself, like, how to create more emotional intimacy in a relationship. But I do think it is really important for couples to recognize that emotional intimacy is important and necessary. And it can feel very jarring if your partner's initiating something so intimate as sex when you guys are feeling really disconnected from each other. So there's also one little wrinkle in this too, that, like, yes, there definitely are rude times to initiate or rude ways to initiate where it's just like, I haven't seen you all day, we haven't talked, we're still in the middle of a fight, and I'm like, jumping straight for, you know, us to start being intimate. But I think it's also really important for us to recognize that for a lot of people, physical intimacy is the way that they feel emotional intimacy. So we do have a whole podcast up episode on that. It's episode 38. You want connection. Your partner wants sex. Who comes first? So definitely make sure to check that episode out after this one. Number seven, your partner is annoyed with you initiating because they don't think there's anything in it for them.

Oh.

Oh. I think this is a big dynamic that a lot of people don't recognize. Like, if your partner feels like. Like they already know sex is not going to be good, they're not going to get pleasure or enjoyment or satisfaction out of it. Like, of course they're going to be irritated with you for initiating.

And there could be shades of this one. It's not necessarily like there's nothing in it for you, but it's. It could be like, oh, there's not as much in it. And this can come up in. In a more minor way as well. It could just be like, oh, there's less. I stand to get less out of sex than my partner does. It's not necessarily like there's nothing in it for me. It could just be like, oh, sometimes I orgasm, but often I don't.

Yeah. Okay. So like, one person on Instagram said, there's never any foreplay.

Yeah. Another person said sex is over when he's had an orgasm, but mine is never a priority.

So, yeah, that's a perfect example. It's like, if my orgasm is never a priority, if there's never any foreplay, or we never do the things that I like the best, or I can I get this feeling that you don't really care about my pleasure. Then it's like, well, why would I want to do this thing that's not enjoyable for me?

Yeah. Why would you prioritize it?

Yeah. And you can feel really frustrated at your partner. It's just this reminder of, like, yep, there's you initiating that thing that's all about you and nothing at all about me. So of course, we have a ton of different stuff all about making sex more enjoyable, satisfying, and pleasurable for both partners. We will link a bunch of stuff in the show notes. We have our foreplay guides. We have next level intercourse. We have better, hotter, more, all kinds of fun stuff to make sure that you're having a great experience for both partners.

Yeah. Because if you're not, then what. What tends to happen is you just start writing sex off as just this, like, itch that your partner needs to scratch. And you start creating this association in your mind where it's like, oh, sex is not for me. Sex isn't something that I'm going to enjoy. And that makes it harder for you to even get to a point where you want to enjoy it more, where you start to take action and explore things that may be better for you. And instead of that, you just end up kind of resenting your partner of like, oh, well, they just want this thing that I don't need or I don't want.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Number eight is a really interesting one. I just came up with this one off the top of my head, and I think it was something that, honestly, I hadn't ever really put words to it, but I resonated with it as soon as the idea came Up.

Oh, me too.

Okay. Okay. So this one is shame around not being turned on in the exact moment that you're supposed to be turned on. So I think sometimes sex can feel like a pop quiz. Like, if you initiate. If Xander initiates sex in this moment. And it was like, sex was the last thing on my mind. I was not there. Like, sometimes there's this feeling of being caught off guard, like, oh, whoa. Like, that's just not where I was. And then there's this little bit of shame that comes up for me, or, like, guilt that comes up for me around, like, oh, that's not where I was. And this little tiny kernel of, like, I was supposed to be turned on.

Yeah. What's wrong with me?

Yeah, it makes me feel like, yeah, there's something wrong with me, or I feel kind of bad. And to be perfectly clear, like, I don't rationally think that I have to be turned on in the exact moments that you're turned on. Like, I understand we're different people. We get turned on different moments. Moments. But there's just this feeling that comes up every once in a while sometimes, like, despite what my rational brain will say of, like, oh, like, I. I was supposed to be ready for that in that moment.

Yeah. I mean, I can relate with this one as well, in a bit of a different way more. You know, mine sort of has this, like, this layer of gender or, like, masculinity over it, too, which is that, you know, this idea of, like, guys are supposed to always want sex. Sex. Guys are supposed to be initiating sex all the time or almost all the time, even if we enjoy it when our partner initiates sex. And so, you know, that was a long time with us when. When you would initiate sex. And it would have been the last thing on my mind. I was super stressed, super overwhelmed. And instead of, I. I would feel bad about myself, but really, I would kind of overreact and just try to shut things down in a kind of rude. Rude or mean way. I would. I would kind of overcompensate and make you feel bad for wanting it, because I was like, hey, I'm supposed to be the one initiating, not you. I'm not ready for this right now. And, you know, I wasn't able to. To verbalize that or conceptualize that idea until later. And I started saying, oh, but, like, the way that I am doing that is by actually, like, literally lashing out at you. And that's a. That's a really shitty place. Place to be. And I think a Lot of us do this without realizing, especially. But first we have to understand, you know, kind of, like the gender dynamics of it. And, like. Yeah, no, like, if you're a man, you are not supposed to want sex all the time. That's. That's not actually true. Like, we each can want sex sometimes, and we can each not want sex sometimes. That's totally fine.

Yeah. And I think for me, sometimes, like, that little feeling of shame, that would come up as a defense mechanism, I would. Would then kind of turn it on you and, you know, be annoyed or frustrated with you for initiating in that moment as a way of, like, me not having to deal with the shame that was coming up for me. So it's. It's a really interesting little one. And number nine is tied into that one. It's kind of similar. It's this idea that your partner might get annoyed or frustrated in the moment because they can't mentally change tracks so quickly. So this does also relate to the whole interruption thing that we were talking about. But, like, one person on Instagram said, once again, I'm in the groove of doing something. It's really difficult for me to just snap to being turned on.

Oh, I can relate with this.

Yeah. So it's like, maybe it's not even that you were interrupted in this terrible moment. There was a little bit of spaciousness. You were, like, open to your partner. But when your partner initiates, it's just like, you just can't get your mindset into the sexual mindset.

Yeah. I mean, it could be that you're doing a task that's, like, totally menial or random or, like, not an important task. Like, this happens to me all the time. I put off things that I'm dreading doing or that are annoying that aren't that important. And then I finally start doing it, and then I really get into the groove, and I'm like, oh, God, I'm almost done. I gotta finish this thing. And then, like, Vanessa asks me about, like, a work thing or about, like, a personal thing or whatever. I'm like, oh, just go away and let me finish this thing. So, you know, I can imagine if it was, like, sex you're initiating, I would react the same way. Way.

So this really ties into the sex drive types as well. We. I guess we'll have to link this too, that we have a free guide about the two different sex drive types. And one of the types is responsive sex drive, where you need physical stimulation first before you can get the mental desire for sex. So if you're asking your partner to just, like, just want sex now, that's not how it works for them. Like, their body has to be appealed to first. So we go into a lot more detail in that free guide about these sex drive types and how they work and how to work with them. But I think it's important to understand, like, your partner may not be someone who could just mentally get in the mood and even separate from the sex drive types. Like, that just might be kind of how their brain works. So it's. This one is kind of about just respecting each other, you know, the way that you guys are and not trying to force any sort of. Of, you know, expectations on them.

Yeah. I mean, and I can say this from my perspective as someone whose brain does struggle to shift gears sometimes. What I do now is that I remind myself, I know right now it doesn't feel like I can shift gears, but I do know from experience that I can. And when it comes to getting turned on, maybe I'm not turned on right now, but I also know from experience because. Because we have a lot of experience trying this, that I just need a couple minutes. I need a couple minutes to get warmed up and I can come back to the thing that I was doing or I was thinking about. As much as in this moment, it feels like, no, I can never get into the state of mind that I am now. Like, now is the only time to finish it. I also know from experience that I can always come back to it. So it's just like, I just know that my brain is wired, wired in that way. And I just have to give myself a friendly reminder. I can do these things. I can. I just need to give myself a minute.

Number 10, your partner gets annoyed or frustrated because they don't feel physically able to have sex. So one person on Instagram reached out and said, I'm in early pregnancy. I'm constantly sick and tired. Like, I just don't feel capable or up to having sex.

Another person said, I've felt pelvic floor pain. So I just see sex as something uncomfortable, which in turn makes me feel annoyed.

So this one, obviously there are, like, a lot of different details that can come up if there's some sort of injury or illness. You know, it's. It's difficult to get really turned on and in the mood if you're grappling with something big. So this one is like, we wanted to throw this one out there, to name it, but obviously this is going to have to be a personal conversation between couples about you know, what they're each currently going through, whether that's something kind of a temporary state or it's something more chronic and longer lasting.

Yeah. And maybe just the broader conversation about, like, what are each of our perspectives on, like, times when it is okay and not okay to have sex? Because I think, you know, different people will have different perspectives on that. Like, some people might be like, I don't really care how sick I am. Like, I'm down to have sex whenever. And some people are going to be like, hey, if I'm. If I have a cold, like a mild cold, I'm not feeling up for sex. And so I think those are just kind of like, you know, just general philosophical conversations to have with your partner. And if you notice that you guys have a difference than putting some boundaries in place so that you go, okay, cool. Like, you know, for me, I don't mind having sex when I'm sick. So, like, you know, if I'm the one who's sick, like, maybe we do it, but if you're the one who's sick, maybe we don't, or something like that. I think a lot of people just never have those conversations. And again, then we operate from a place of like, oh, well, this is how I feel about it, so therefore you must feel this way about it.

Exactly. And let's bring it on home with number 11. Your partner is annoyed because they feel like sex is expected of them or that they owe sex to you. And whether that's the vibe that you're giving off, the vibe that your partner feels on their own, the vibe society has taught them a delightful combination of all of the above. But I think this is something that comes up for a lot of people. One person said, sex just feels like yet another expectation that I need to do.

Or they were super grouchy and rude all day and then expected me to take care of. Of them.

So we have an episode that's just about this episode 73. It's called do you owe your partner sex? It's such a great episode. Really, really fascinating and nuanced conversation.

And it's not actually just a simple, no, it's not.

So go check that episode out if that is a dynamic that comes up for the two of you. Because, yeah, initiation is supposed to feel like an invitation, but if it feels like an expectation or an obligation.

Ooh, fun with wordplay.

Terrible, terrible. Doct Seuss here. If it feels like that, like, of course that's going to bring up frustration and resentment and, and have it not Just feel good in your relationship. So we've obviously talked about a lot of different topics today. I mean, 11 possible reasons. There are already more than I'm thinking of in my head. So obviously, this is a very nuanced and, you know, layered and complicated conversation. And at the same time, like, we've distilled things down into two golden rules here that I think can be really useful for couples to think about with initiation, because, again, it is. It's really important for us to figure out how to do this right in relationships because it's a crucial part of having a great sex life. So rule number one, Everyone is allowed to be turned on whenever they're turned on. So I think sometimes what can come up when we talk about, like, a partner getting frustrated or annoyed when their partner is initiated, sometimes it can feel like there's this shame being put on the initiating partner of, like, I can't believe you would want sex in a moment like this.

Yeah, this is inappropriate. You shouldn't feel that way.

Yeah. And again, there definitely are rude and insensitive times to initiate sex. But that basic kernel of desire, we never want to shame our partners for that. There's nothing wrong with being turned on. Sometimes we get turned on in weird moments where we wouldn't think we would be turned on, but somehow we are. So, like, we don't ever want to shame our partner for being turned on whenever it is that they're turned on. We can work on initiation. We can get more skillful and better at it, but your partner is allowed to be turned on. And rule number two, everyone is allowed to be uninterested in sex whenever they're uninterested in sex. So just because your partner is initiating doesn't mean that you have to say yes, and it doesn't mean that you have to always be interested in or open to sex in the exact moments that your partner is like, you two are different people. You're gonna be turned on and not turned on in different moments, and that's gotta be okay. So I think if we just start with that basic respect for each other of, I respect when you're turned on, and I respect when you're not open to it. I think that so many of these complex dynamics can just get easier, and.

We have a number of resources to help make that easier for you. We discussed so many things that we offer. Offer throughout this episode.

So, yeah, this was like. I think this, like, everything that we offer tied into this in one way or another pretty much.

I mean, this is what we do. So this is what we specialize in. If you're interested in checking out the art of initiation, go over to vmtherapy.com initiation for details. And on that note, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. This has felt like. Yeah, this is a big boy. So thank you all for listening. Thank you for getting to the end with us. Join us again next week when we talk about sex confessions.

Can't wait.

O Ours are yours. We'll see. Giving me a. What is that? Look.

Okay.

Are you okay?

Yeah, no, I was okay. My brain just went.

That was very cute.