Episode 82: The 15 Lessons That Keep Us Saying “I Do” After 15 Years

Okay, should I start first?

Yeah, kick us off, babe.

Should I share one?

You're number one. You're always my number one.

Oh, you are going. You are so cheesy today. You're just trying to drum up points with this podcast. Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So today marks 15 years that we have been together.

Wow.

Thanks to Storyworth for supporting Pillow Talks. Storyworth is a meaningful gift you and your family can treasure forever. And you can get started right away. Go to storyworth.compillow to get $10 off your first purchase. 15 years ago, on this day, December 15th, 15 years ago.

Four score in 15 years ago. What does four score mean?

Oh, God, you're gonna put me on the sport. In the sport.

Wow, we are starting with the bang here.

Four score. Isn't that like. Oh, God, I feel like it's like two weeks or something like that.

Yeah.

Well, maybe score is a week. So it's like four weeks ago.

I don't know. Well, I mean, as we're recording this, it is. It is not yet December 15th, but it's about maybe four score days. Hold on.

We need to take a Google break. What does four does four score mean? Okay, four score, like a score is 20, so four score is 80. Four times 20 is 80.

All right, so we got a long way to go.

I don't know where I got two weeks from, but there's some other, like, old timey term that means two weeks.

Oh, a fortnight.

Oh, that's what I'm thinking.

It's fort. Not for night.

Fortnite. Fortnite. And seven years ago, we met in a fateful Christmas party at Xander's house.

A fateful makeout incident.

Yeah. So the. The deal was that night I was out with friends, and I was not feeling it that night.

She was tired.

I wanted to go home. I was tired. It was. Do you remember, was it a Friday or Saturday?

I'm pretty sure that it was a Saturday because the night before had been my. My office's company holiday party. And it is incredible. That I was awake and ready to party on Saturday because Friday night was rough. I mean, I was 20.

In your early 20s again.

Yeah. I mean, I guess that's just, like. It's inconceivable to me how at 22, I was able to bounce back from that.

Oof. Okay. So that night, I was out with friends. I was going to go home. I was not feeling it. And my friend was dating a guy at the time, and she said, oh, he's gonna be at this house party. Will you come with me? She wanted me to be, like, her wing woman. And I was like, no, I don't want to go to a house party. It sounds terrible. I want to go home and go to bed. She kept begging me. And then I realized that the house party was four blocks from my house. So I was like, okay, I'll go to the party with her just to get her to stop complaining. I'll drop her off. Because I knew as soon as she saw the guy she was dating, like, they were just going to be together. I'll drop her off, and then I'll walk home. Easy peasy. And so I walked into that party in a very crappy, very bachelor apartment in San Francisco. Oh, yeah, there was brown shag carpeting.

Yep.

There were four dudes living there in four bedrooms and a fifth living in the living room.

He wasn't paying rent, though. We were letting him live there out of the goodness of our hearts. Definitely not allowed in our lease. Sorry. To Larry, the landlord, whom we later took to small claims court for not giving us our deposit back. And we won.

Okay, so that apartment, it was gross. And I walked in, we hung out for a little bit with the guy that my friend was dating. And so she pulled me aside at a certain point, and she pointed out, see that DJ over there? The guy DJing in the corner? He thinks you're really cute. And I looked over at him, and I was like, oh, of course he does.

I've never heard you tell it this way.

But I think, you know, when you know that somebody is attracted to you, it makes you a little bit more attracted to them. You're like, oh, okay, you think I'm cute. All right, well, you're kind of cute, too.

Oh. It was because I was just so attractive that you were so flatter that I might also think that you were attractive.

Okay, sure. I don't think I really noticed you when we walked into the party.

I mean, it was dark.

It was dark. You were tucked into a corner. I didn't Want to be there. Like, I wasn't really looking around for hot dudes.

In order to notice me, you would have had to open. Open the door and then like, crane. Crane your neck all the way to the right. So, yeah, I don't blame you for not noticing me. Also, you know, it was dark and it was a bumping party. That crowd was so thick, you wouldn't have been able to see me through it.

Wow. I did know all the songs that you were playing though. So I was like, okay, I've gotten in. And so I snuck behind the DJ booth and started talking to him about the sweet jams that he was playing. I think I impressed you.

Some sick blog house.

Bl. Some 2007 blog house.

Yeah, Digitalism and simian mobile disco.

Oh, yeah.

So I can't remember anything else.

What we learned later is that. So my friend, the guy that she was dating, that guy had told Xander, hey, do you see that girl over there? She thinks you're really cute. So Xander was doing his patented move at the time of Let the ladies come to Me.

Yep.

He's very smug. I wish you could see the look on his face. He's very satisfied with himself.

Well, did it work? Did it work? I rest my case.

So we found out later that our friends had done this little setup. But most importantly, neither one of us had said anything. I did not say Xander was cute. He did not say that I was cute.

And our friends had not pre planned this.

They did not coordinate it. They each, in the moment, out of nowhere, decided to lie to us, their trusted friends, and tell them that this person was attracted to them. So it was a very funny coincidence that that happened that way.

I mean, it's been a long time since I've been in this headspace, but I feel like that was kind of like what you did back in the day, like trying to. Trying to like, give your friends a little encouragement. You know, you're like. You're like trying to throw them a bone. Like, oh, well, you know, hey, she's. She's pretty attractive, right? Like, hey, she. She's probably into you.

So Xander was a bad dj. He put on a mix and he came out onto the dance floor.

I mean, to be fair, I'd been playing for a while. I wanted to enjoy the party too. I probably only had so many records to play.

Uh huh. So he came out onto the dance floor with me. We started making out right away.

Started freak dancing.

Oh God, you're making it sound so.

Love it. I mean, we were. Does Anyone say that anymore? Does anyone even know what that means?

Yeah. If you're in your 20s, please let us know if you know what freak dancing is.

It's just I. So here's the thing. I love. I love that word. I love that term because for me it reminds me of seventh grade. I went to a new middle school. It was the first time that we. Like I had ever been to a school dance. And there was like, I remember seeing a sign up like in the bathroom for the school dance, for the school. You know, it was like a hand drawn advertisement for the school dance. And, you know, it was like, you know, here's where it's going to be. Here's how long it is. Here's how cool it is. And then there were like, you know, rules, like things not to do. And it said no freak dancing. And there were a picture of two stick figures, I guess, like kind of freak dancing. But I didn't know what freak dancing meant. And it was not clear from the stick figures, like what type of dance move they were doing that was not permissible. And I just remember being like, huh, I feel like I should know what this means. No one's ever told me what it means. And I don't really feel comfortable asking anyone. So we'll just see if I figure it out.

You did eventually. I guess I did.

I'm. I'm pretty sure it was like maybe that summer at summer camp that, you know, some. Some kids told me what freak dancing actually was.

So we, we.

I had to wait until high school to indulge in the freak dancing.

There is a picture of us. Actually. Maybe we should put this in the show notes. There is a picture of us on the dance floor. Like somebody was just taking. One of our friends was taking a picture of like the whole party, the living room. And you can see us in back. You can't like see our faces, but you can see our bodies smushed together.

My hand, like almost on her butt.

Yeah, we'll have to put that in the show notes. So that night. Yeah, Six hours of just making out. You walked me home at, God, I don't know, what, three or four in the morning, Something like that.

Yeah, I think it was 4 in the morning.

Yeah, it was very late. He walked me home and told me he'd call me the next day. And he did call me the next day. And I let it go to voicemail because I didn't want to answer the phone. I wanted to see what he was going to say.

I did also wait Till pretty much the very end of the next day because I was very hungover and not in any state to actually be trying to get together with her. So I waited and I called and basically said, I'm not in any state.

Yeah, I mean, I did see you.

But I really want to see you. I'd love to take you on a date sometime.

And Monday, Monday was our first date. Like our first official date.

Yeah, we did not waste any time.

We didn't. I think we were both. Yeah, we just kind of knew. Not that, you know, it was going to end up like this 15 years later, but I think we both knew this was something special and we didn't want to play games with each other. We didn't want to do the like, oh, wait, three days. It was like, I just. I like you and I'm into you and I want to see you.

Yeah, I really wanted to see her. There was also a lot of sexual tension that was, that was unresolved.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, I, I definitely experienced blue balls for the first time that night. And if you, if you listen to watch any of our content, you've probably seen us talk about how blue balls is bullshit. And here's where that come from. Comes from because, because blue balls, you know, the symptom is real. There's some discomfort after you've been turned on for a very long time, you know, without any, you know, stimulation that's going to lead to an orgasm, you know, at least for a man. It's uncomfortable, it's not painful, it's not going to kill you. And there's a very easy solution which I engaged in as soon as I got home, which was using my hands to masturbate. And that immediately relieves the pressure.

And I did the same thing because I also had some buildup tension.

I'm sure you did. So. Yeah, so that's why, you know that. That's why you hear us kind of talk shit about blue balls. Like, so I just want to be clear, like, it's a real thing. We think that the name of it, blue balls, and the way that it gets thrown around, tends to imply that it's a lot worse than it is and that there should be some obligation on, you know, the other person's behalf to like to help you finish yourself off to relieve that tension. But that's total bullshit because you, you can do it just as effectively, if not more effectively and quicker yourself.

I love that you've turned our anniversary story, our like, story of how we met into a rant. On blue balls. Thank you.

You're welcome.

All right. So 15 years later, I mean. Yeah, that. That really was it. It was like once we met each other and started dating.

Yeah. I mean, we went on a date. We went on our first date on Monday. I think we went our second date on Wednesday, and I think we went on our third date on Friday. And then on Saturday, it was. We were both each going home for the holidays because it was, you know, in. In December.

Yeah.

And that was the era when we were young enough where it was like, oh, it's, you know, holiday time. We're gonna go home and stay with our parents for two weeks or whatever. And Vanessa drove me to a gas station in Gilroy where my mom picked me up. And. But I forced Vanessa to just leave me at this gas station because I didn't want her meeting my mom yet.

I mean, that would have been weird.

Your mom, Vanessa was like, are you. Are you sure?

Drop you off at a gas station.

It was sketchy. It was sketchy. But, you know, I was like, I gotta play it cool.

And, yeah. Fifteen years later, here we are.

Yeah.

So we thought we had to celebrate this occasion by sharing 15 lessons that we have learned over 15 years of being together.

Yeah. I mean, number one is if you feel any blue ball discomfort, just masturbate.

There you go. Xander's got one already.

Just kidding. That's. That's number zero.

So we decided to do something kind of creative for this episode. So what we did is I came up with seven lessons that I feel like I've learned. Xander came up with seven lessons that he's learned. We sent them to our employee, Keely. So she checked to make sure there weren't any overlaps, which I think there weren't.

Wow.

And then our team came up with the final lesson that they've learned from being around us and observing our relationship. So we're gonna be sharing these with each other. Xander and I have separate notes. We have not seen each other, so it'll be like a little surprise to each other, a little anniversary gift.

Should we do them all together, like. Or. Alternate.

Alternate.

Okay, cool. I was gonna suggest that, too. This is how little we've prepared for this, because we don't want to tip each other off.

But first.

But first. You got me. You got me. God. I was bragging the other day about how on it, I' with the review of the week, how, you know, like, it just took me a little while to form this habit of remembering and right back to earth, you know? I was just so overcome with emotion for us in 15 years that I hope you can forgive me.

Oh, you're totally lying. But you're cute.

All right, well, let's get into this cute review of the week more, please. I genuinely look forward to every Thursday when new episodes are released. Vanessa and Xander are like my wise friends who are open and willing to share real experiences that have helped me so much. I used to be more concerned about sharing this kind of stuff or that it would off put my partner that I was listening to this kind of material. But he expects it now and even enjoys learning about what's being discussed on the podcasts. Thanks for staying open, honest and relatable and keeping us excited to listen in more.

Aww.

Heart face. Party face. Star eyes face.

There you go. Star eyes face.

Starry eyed surprise.

Oh, well, thank you for this wonderful review. Your reviews go so far in helping the podcast grow and reach new people. And we decided to switch things up starting this week.

Switch up.

We've got a new prize. So now for our review of the week giveaway. So here's how it works. We just ask you to please leave a review for us on Apple Podcasts. It does not have to be long. Just a sentence will do. But once you leave that review, you are entered into this weekly giveaway every week going forward. And if you are chosen, you hear your review being read in an episode. Then you get to pick a masterclass of your choosing. So we have four different things for you to choose from. Bring your sex life back to life, supercharge your confidence in the bedroom, how to know what you want in the bedroom, and initiate Initiation 101. So you get to choose which one sounds most exciting to you. And you can email us@infomtherapy.com just tell us the username that you left your review with and they will get you all set up with your free masterclass. So just our little way of saying thank you so much for taking the time to leave these reviews. Okay, should I start first?

Yeah, kick us off, babe.

Should I share one?

You're number one. You're always my number one.

Oh, you are going. You are so cheesy today. You're just trying to drum up points with this podcast.

Well, before we started recording, you were like, oh, make sure you're feeling really sentimental. You're getting what you asked for. Getting what you asked for.

All right. It's working. Okay, so number one, I picked. Pick someone you want to do hard things with. Oh, yeah. You like it?

Yeah. Tell me more.

I have a vivid memory from an early stage of our relationship when we were starting to have conflict. You know, that the sheen of the brand new relationship was wearing off a little bit and we were starting to have arguments and conflict like any couple does. And I remember feeling like you were a really good person to have conflict with because you're, you're really open to hearing about my experience, even when it's very different from your own. You have always been quick to apologize. You've never had, like a sense of pride around not wanting to do it. You are able to communicate about your feelings and process emotions, like on your own and us together. And so I remember thinking like, conflict is never fun. Obviously, I'd rather we never had an argument, but I understood that relationships are challenging, life is challenging. And rather than looking for somebody that I'm never gonna have a fight with, I wanted to find somebody that I could do hard things with. And that was really something that stuck out to me about you. And I think in a way, you. I think I have those skills as well of being able to navigate conflict. But I think being in a relationship with you really elevated that for me. Like, it kind of inspired me. You're definitely, of the two of us, you stay much more level headed in, in conflict sometimes. Overall, overall, maybe you stay a little bit more level headed. We go back and forth, but I think, yeah, it just made me feel motivated to bring out my best in conflict too.

Oh, well, speaking of conflict, my first one would be one that, you know, young Xander, at the beginning of our relationship, as we started to have some conflicts, would have really appreciated having an older brother to be like, hey, bro, think before you talk. So that's the lesson. And I put try to in parentheses at the beginning of it because the reality is you can never be perfect at this one. And I've learned over time it's better to try to be gentle with myself and just say, try your best to.

Think before you fall. And none of these 15, we have not been perfect at any of these. And we don't set perfection as the goal e there.

Yeah. So I think, you know, Vanessa and I got into a lot of, a lot of early conflict because I wasn't really thinking a lot. I was, I, you know, I. I was really used to having a lot of, like, debates and arguments with my friends about, like, academic stuff or political stuff or social issues or whatever. And, you know, at least like, you know, amongst my guy friends. It was kind of just like we would just push Any emotions about it aside. And it would just be all about the debate or, like, talking or giving each other a hard time. And I think, like, men are really socialized to kind of not think about what they think about what they're saying before they say it, because there's not a lot of consequences, or at least there weren't a lot of consequences. It was kind of just like, oh, no, I'm just joking. I don't really mean that time. And I came to find that, you know, very often I would think we were just joking around or I was, you know, making, you know, gently making fun of Vanessa or that we were just debating about something and then. And she would, you know, end up being. Feeling very hurt by something that I said. And for me, I really had to learn, oh, like, I. I need to actually think, what is it that I want to say? And how might. Might she interpret that? How might she feel about that? Rather than just, like, I can say whatever I want and she can't get upset with me about it.

So trying to, Trying to consider my experience. Yeah, it would be. And taking a little bit more time to figure out what it is that you actually want to say. And.

Yes. Yeah, I mean, yeah, taking time to figure out what you want to say is a huge part of that. Because I think that a lot of us, us feel like for a conversation to be fluid or to be good at communication, like, you got to be ready to go with whatever you're going to say right when your partner stops talking, or perhaps that even, like, you're interrupting them in the middle to kind of like, you know, push the conversation forward or whatever. And I really had to learn that. For me, I often need to take a break, like, after she says something, I need to say, hey, give me a couple seconds to. To think about that and consider what I want to say next. And I think that's a good tip for anyone who struggles with this is because, yeah, if you haven't thought about it, you're likely to just kind of say whatever comes to mind. And you haven't had time to consider, what are the words that I'm going to say? How might this feel to, you know, the person that I really care about? Like, is there a chance that they are going to interpret this in a different way than what I'm meaning?

Yeah.

And so I think, yeah, I think that's just an important thing, is, remember, you are allowed to pause when you're having any kind of communication, but especially when you're in some sort of conflict. Like, it's better to take more time than, than to like, have it over quickly. Because I think that's, that's like my motivation is I want this to be over. I want this to be over as soon as possible. And very often I end up drawing it out because it's like rush into, oh, God, let's, let's get this over. This is uncomfortable. I gotta have this done with. That just causes more damage and more hurt. So take your time.

Okay. All right, number three. My next selection was it's easier for us to see the negatives, so make an active effort to find and call out the positives.

Oh, you like that one? Gratitude.

Yeah. So I think especially as you get into a long term relationship, the more time that goes by, I think our brains are just naturally drawn to the things that are going wrong, that we don't like, the bad things our partner does. And it's very easy to feel annoyed at your partner, frustrated at them. You know, you see, oh, the dishes are piling up that they haven't washed, or they left their freaking sock next to the hamper instead of in the hamper. And our brains just go straight to those things so easily. And it can feel like each of those little moments adds up, and it just creates resentment and frustration and annoyance, and it leads us to, to lose that connection between the two of us. And so I think for me, recognizing, hey, that's just a thing my brain does. Actually, when we were at a business conference with a little mastermind group of other entrepreneurs that we're part of, there was a presentation that another therapist did where he put up a big slide on the board and said, like, what's wrong about? Or what do you notice about this picture? And it was a couple of different, very simple mathematical things. Like 2 plus 2 is 4, 4 plus 8 is. And one of them was like, 5 plus 7 is 15. And so everybody immediately went to like, oh, that one's wrong. You know, so it's just a very simple way of illustrating, like, it's just a thing that our brains do.

Yeah, like, he didn't ask. He didn't ask. Yeah, he didn't ask what's wrong, what's wrong with this? He just says, what do you notice?

Yeah. So nobody said, oh, there are three correct math problems there. So I think, yeah, for me, being able to recognize, hey, this is just a thing that my brain does and that's okay, But I want to make a conscious effort to look for the things that are good and that I Appreciate and that you're doing for me or the ways that you're showing up in our relationship or in the world. And that is a simple practice, and it has also been incredibly powerful. It feels good for me when I make that effort to notice the things that you do and the person that you are. And it feels good to you when I share that with you. And it creates that feeling of goodwill and appreciation and generosity and loving. Lovingness. It creates a feeling of love. Love. There we go. That, I think, is. It really fuels us.

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, research has also shown that just like, you know, a daily gratitude practice does wonders for your mental health.

Oh, yeah.

And just like waking up and thinking about a couple of things or writing them down or whatever things that you are grateful. Even when things are really tough. Because even when things are tough, like, there's always. There's always something. And I think the key. I think a lot of people, like, I used to be really not anti gratitude, but, like, I would hear people say that and, like, cynical, Like, I'd be really cynical about it because it's like, oh, well, I would think, oh, you're just telling me to, like, to not worry about the stuff that's going wrong, and instead of it, just be, like, only focused on, like, what's going.

Right or like, like, oh, I'm just gonna pretend nothing bad is here. It's all sunshine and rainbows and perfect.

Yeah. But the reality is it's not about pretending that things are great. It's just. It's taking a more realistic view of what's going on. Because, of course, the stuff that is wrong is. Is going wrong, and it's still there, and it's not gonna go away. But even though that's happening, there are also things that are. Are right and that are good.

Yeah. I mean, I think if. Even if you take a simple example, like chores, you know, if you're not doing your chores, of course that's an issue. And it's something that, like, you should be doing those things. But if I'm coming at you from a place of, like, you didn't take the trash out again. You loved another sink, you left another sock. Da, da, da. Like, you're not gonna feel great about doing those things. You're like, well, she's already mad at me. She's already disappointed in me. Now, I. Either you're just gonna ignore it or you're gonna, you know, do it kind of resentfully.

Yeah.

But if you're feeling appre by me, like, hey, I saw that you took the dogs out. I saw that you got my car washed. I saw that you did this. Like, oh, can you take the trash out? Like, for me, it's gonna feel easier for me to make those requests of you when I'm not coming at it from a place of just being angry and resentful. And for you, you're gonna feel more motivated to do the thing. So you're like, oh, yeah, it makes those things not seem like such a big deal.

Yeah. I mean, you might even feel good about doing those things. You're like, oh, like, she's really going to appreciate me.

Yeah.

For doing this.

So. Yeah, I like to. I like to try to look for the positives and look for the things that I appreciate, because even in our hardest times, they have always been there. And I think that that appreciation and gratitude really keeps our relationship feeling so happy and healthy.

Oh, thanks. Well, speaking of the gratitude and the good things, can I tie all of yours into mine? I mean, so far, it's just been great segue after great segue. So for me, you know, our number four is. Is give tons of compliments, even for things that seem tiny.

Oh, my God. Yeah. This is almost identical.

Yeah. I mean, I think this was something that I really learned early on. This kind of gets back to, like, the love languages, so to speak, of, like, we each give and receive. Like, you prefer to give and receive love in different ways. And. And I think with you is the first time that I really started to understand that truly. And, like, yeah, I learned that you love compliments. When I compliment you on things, to me that seem so tiny and maybe even stupid to me, like, it would make such a positive impact, you know? Like, Vanessa would all of a sudden be having a great day. She'd have a huge smile. She'd be so happy. And at first, I kind of wanted to dismiss. I kind of happened upon this accidentally, I think, and be like, oh, I just made this kind of Of a side comment, and all of a sudden, she's so happy, and I kind of wanted to dismiss it, like, oh, this is dumb. Like, this. It feels like cheating. Like, I'm not.

It's too easy.

It's too easy. And then we talked about it more, and it's like, oh, like, this is actually. She actually loves this. And, you know, but then I would find it was hard for me to remember to do that because that's not the way that I naturally, you know, want to receive love, or it's not like, my ideal I'm, I'm a very much a physical touch person. Ironically, Vanessa is not. And so, like, we each have to remind each other. You know, Vanessa needs to remind herself to touch me more and I need to remind myself constantly to give her compliments for things because it just totally lights her up. So I think compliments are really important. I mean, I could even change this one of like, give love in the language that your partner speaks.

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Okay. For number five, I have identify your relationships core values. So this was something that what we actually did originally was we made core values for our company a couple of years ago. We like really sat down and thought about like, what do we want this business? Like, what are these values? We ma it all out. We have it on our website, we put it on our job postings. We became like very values driven. We'd always been like, you know, our values had always been important to us. But really doing this exercise of like identifying our six core values was so powerful for us in our business. And I was like, oh my God, why have we not done this for our relationship? So we took some time to really sit down and think about like, what do we value in our relationship, what's important to us and what do we want to be working towards? So, so we're gonna keep ours private because they were, you know, just really meaningful to us. But for, you know, for example, I think one of them is like curiosity. One of them was fun. So it was very valuable for us to go through this exercise of thinking about, you know, and having this conversation about it. Because at this point, you know, we'd been together for years already. It wasn't like we were at the beginning of the relationship or anything like that. But I think it's very easy to just sort of make assumptions about what's really important to both of you. And sometimes you can have really big hard realizations of like, oh, we are not on the same page about how important that is. So this is a really valuable exercise for us to, like, brainstorm what are all these different potential core values that we could have? And also, you know, kind of thinking about who we are, the kind of relationship we want to have, the goals that we want to set for ourselves. And so. So honing those down and picking. We picked five. There's no hard and fast rule here. You can do whatever number feels good to you. But I think that's just such a powerful exercise that I would venture to guess 99% of couples have never done before, but I think it can be very, very powerful.

And I think the important thing here is that you can keep coming back to this, like, however often you want. Like, I feel like a nice thing to do might just be to revisit it every single year. Because I think a lot of people hear the word values and they think, oh, these are things that can never change or aren't allowed to change, or, like, if they change, it means there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with us. But, you know, if you talk about it regularly, it just gives you an opportunity to be like, all right, let's go through these. Like, how important do these feel still? Do, you know, does one of these feel less important or is it having less importance in our life relative to maybe something else? Because, of course those things are going to change. They're going to change as you grow, as each of you, you know, have new experiences, new hobbies, you have kids, your kids move out of the house. Whatever happens, those values are going to change. And it just. This allows you to open up those conversations of, like, how are we changing? Are the same things still important to us? It kind of gives this permission that those things are allowed to change, because that's where I think a lot of people get into relationship. Like, kind of stuck places. Is that feeling like. It feels like the things that are important to us are changing, but it doesn't feel like we can talk about it, because to talk about it would be to acknowledge that we're somehow not right for each other and that, like, our relationship has run its course. And then we often wait until they, you know, they end up changing so much that all of a sudden it feels like it's hard to bridge that gap. But if you come back to it frequently, you can acknowledge, okay, yeah, we're changing in this area. So, like, you know, maybe this is becoming more of a personal value. It's less of a, you know, a partner's value for us or, you know, there's something else that's really important to us together, so I would encourage you to keep coming back to that one.

And fun bonus of this one that works in business and in our relationship is that when you have those values, those can really help you make big decisions.

Oh, yeah.

You know, like, any. Any business decision that we have to make, like, we run it through our values and, like, is it, you know, what decision is most in alignment with these values? So it's. Yeah, a great way to help make tough decisions. All right, what is your number six?

Number six is a literal daily reminder to myself that Vanessa cannot read my mind. This is another one. This is another one. Kind of like the think before you talk. Like. Like, this is something that I just need to always remind myself of every day, because it's something that we just always forget about, especially as the years go by, because we have so many experiences where it does seem like perhaps we are on the same wavelength. You know, that's kind of like what love is. When you start getting really close with someone, it's like, God, it just feels like they know me better than I know myself. They must be able to read my mind. They know exactly what I'm thinking all the time. And, yeah, they probably do know what you're thinking many times, and many times they have no idea. No idea. And I. So many of our conflicts have come out of this place where, like, I say something or do something because I just, you know, in the moment, I'm not conscious of being like, oh, well, Vanessa knows this, but then I'll be kind of playing it back and be like. Like, oh, yeah, I made a big assumption, or I just kind of. I didn't say something explicitly because I just figured she would know because I knew. I knew. But that was because, you know, in my mind, I've already had a whole detailed conversation with myself about it, and I never had any conversation with Vanessa. So I think this is one that every couple should be reminding themselves of on the daily.

Love it. Okay. My number seven is to aim for understanding, not agreement. And so this has been a way that I've been able to reframe conflict. We both have been able to reframe conflict. That has made a huge difference for us. So I will say, like, for myself in conflict, my natural tendency is to go a little bit into lawyer mode and, like, kind of presenting the evidence. Or, like, you said this and then I said that and then you said this. Like, I think of myself as Having this very clear memory of exactly what happened. Happened.

Yeah, this works great for her because she has a very clear memory of it. As soon as we get into any level of, like, heightened conflict, I feel like I kind of naturally forget things. I have a feeling of what I think happened, but I no longer remember specifics. Whereas Vanessa feels like she really does.

Yeah. And so we had a lot of conflicts where it was like, you know, we were arguing about the surface level of it. Well, what happened and then who said what, and then who said what after that? And these conflicts would just go around and around in circles because we were missing what it was that we were actually arguing about, which was the emotion behind the argument, what was actually coming up for each of us. And, like, those emotions weren't being addressed. They weren't being tended to. And so the conflict would just keep spiraling and go on because we never got to that deeper, true layer of what was going on for us. And so I learned to start. Start seeing this as, like, my goal is not for us to agree on something, to have, like, the exact same memory of exactly what happened, or to agree, like, Xander is wrong, Vanessa is right, he's 100% wrong, she's 100% right. Like, that's not the goal. The goal instead, should be to try to understand where each other is coming from and to recognize that, like, we're each going to have different experiences, different perspectives, and if we can approach things from that place of, like, I'm curious to know what that was like for you, what came up for you, what was going on for you? What are you feeling right now? If we can approach things with that level of curiosity and openness, like, a willing to hear. Willingness to hear about our partner's experience, that makes conflict go away so much faster, and it creates more of that sense of goodwill, of trust in each other when we approach it from that way. So my goal is not to agree with Xander about what happens, happened. And this doesn't even have to be in conflict either. It could be about positive things, too. My goal is not to have perfect agreement with him. My goal is to understand him and to help him feel like I want to understand him. And I value understanding him.

I feel like this is a much better or, like, upgraded version of that kind of, like, old couples adage. Adage. Wait. Adage. Adage. I don't know.

I think it's adage.

Adage.

But now I don't know.

Oh, I like. I like adage. But you know. You know that one that like, like, would you rather, yeah. Would you rather be right or happy? Because I think that a lot of people hear, like, I think that that's a well intentioned phrase, but it's often misunderstood or it's, or it's kind of purposefully vague. So a lot of people hear, well, would you rather be right or happy? And think that my options are, are I can be right or I can be happy by basically saying I'm wrong. And, and that's not a, that doesn't help. But I think that, you know, instead, if it's more like, it's not about being right, it's about being happy. And by being happy is like if we aim for understanding.

Yeah. Rather than, it's a better way of phrasing it than.

Yeah. Because, because agreement is kind of like the being right. Right. Because for agreement one, you know, you either compromise and agree on something or, you know, one person says, okay, I, I, I am no longer right. I'm, I agree with you, your version of what happened. So I think aim for understanding, not agreement is a, it's, it's not as sexy as like, would you rather be right or happy? But I think it's a more realistic one with less, less gray area.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right, well, my next one, number eight, is just taking the understanding versus agreement one to the next level, kind of the advanced level. And that's that your partner's experience is equally as valid and as important as yours. Because I think what can tend to happen is when you're on that journey of trying to get to understanding and not agreement, you can very often get to the understanding, but you might still have some judgments maybe that you, you, you hold in your own head of like, okay, I can understand this, but that's stupid that they thought that or that they did that or whatever. Like, I feel like I'm still right inside. But okay, I'll, I'll like suspend judgment because we're going for this understanding thing. And I think for me, you know, I was in that place for a while of like, I wanted to get to understanding and that was my goal when we were in conflict. Conflict. But I would still be holding things inside and having my own kind of judgment about it, I guess. And, you know, it was only more recently that I've really come to realize that, you know, we all have a different experience. We all see things through our own eyes. The way that we see things is completely real to us. There's no like, objective reality. There's no one person. There's no, like, camera watching us all the time where we can, like, replay the tape and like, like, dissect exactly what really happened. Like, we each see the world through our own eyes. We each have a different experience. We each interpret things differently. And just because I interpret something differently from Vanessa doesn't make me any more right or my experience any more real than hers. And so it wasn't until I really had that realization that, you know, when we disagree about something, I, I now I aim to hear what was your experience? What are your feelings that are coming out of that experience? And I try to see it that way. I think that's the real key. Even if I can't understand it, I want to go, hey, this is just the way that she experienced it. I care about her. I care about her experience. She had a very real experience in this way. And therefore, it's real enough to me that I can validate it.

Yeah, I think that's just the ultimate sign of love and respect for another person is, is like, even if I don't agree with your experience, even if I have a completely different experience, even if I don't like the experience that you have, I still honor and acknowledge and validate it. It's still true. It's just as true as my own experience, and especially in conflict. This is something that would drive me nuts in conflict. And get back to that lawyer mode that I was mentioning in mine is like, I wanted us to have the same same experience and agree that the exact same thing happened, but to be able to develop some emotional maturity and say, okay, man, I really wish that wasn't your experience. It pains me to say that that was your experience. It's so different from my own, and yet, like, it is true and it's valid and I respect it.

Yeah, I mean, I think this one is so important to, to have this as your goal to get to. If you are starting on the understanding over agreement train, because the reality is like, you can, you can start aiming for understanding and having some understanding, and you start realizing, oh, yeah, this, this kind of short circuits a lot of our conflicts. It's helping us resolve things. But if you're not truly validating the experience of your partner, you're going to start having some feelings of judgment or resentment start to build up every time you, you come to an understanding, because you're still feeling like, yeah, but like, there's still something wrong with that. I still am not fully on board with this. And so, you know, I think that this is one of those things. Can really build a wedge in a lot of relationships, because a lot of couples do get to that point of going, okay, yeah, we are going for understanding over agreement. And that kind of slows down your conflicts. But then eventually it kind of builds to a big blowout. If one or both of you is like, one day you're just like, fuck this. This is ridiculous. I don't, you know, I don't understand you.

Yeah, this is a complex one, but it's a really, really powerful one. So let us know. Come on over to Instagram at Vanessa and Xander and let us know if this is something that you want us to dive into a bit more, because it really has transformed our relationship, like, allowing both of our experiences to be true and real. Okay, my next one is to talk about sex. Oh, I'm actually just realizing, shockingly, only one of my seven is about sex. I should.

Hey, same.

Oh, really?

Well, we must be able to read each other's minds. You keep also transitioning. You also keep transitioning. Right as I'm about to transition to this. A similar topic.

Interesting. Very interesting proof that maybe we actually.

Can read each other's minds. That's. That's the final lesson. It turns out we actually could read each other's minds all along.

Okay, so for this one, there are so many things that I could say about sex and so many lessons learned, but I think the most important one that has come up for me is that talking about sex, sex is the best thing you can do to improve your sex life. I think, you know, over the course of us working together, we've just had so many more conversations about sex in an objective way, in a personal way for from you starting to come in front of the camera and do Instagram and YouTube and this podcast with me, we've had so many more conversations and that the quality of our sex life has improved the more we talk about it and that this is really why we wrote Sex Talks, our upcoming book. It comes out in two more months.

Wow.

So we'll put a link to pre order it in the show notes. We are giving away a ton of little freebies. Not little, very big and very exciting freebies along with it. So definitely make sure to check it out@sextalksbook.com but that was really the motivation for writing this book is we realized, like we've always known talking about sex was important, but we saw what a huge impact it had in our relationship once we started talking about it even more.

I am always continuously amused by the number of DMs we get people asking us, like, oh, because you talk about sex all the time for work, like, do you, like, want to have less of it? And it just boggles my mind. Like, nope, no, it doesn't really work like that.

The more we talk about it, the more we want to have sex.

Yep. Now that we're on the topic of sex, it's perfect time for my number 10, which is a big one for me personally, and I think this is going to be applicable to a lot of people. But instead of asking myself, am I turned on in this very moment? I now think, would I be turned on if we were doing fill in the blank here? So, like, I used to think of my sex drive as, like, if I'm wanting sex right now in this moment, then, like, then I'm horny, then I want sex. Or like, if Vanessa starts initiating sex with me, I'm like, okay, do I want it right now, yes or no? And if the answer was not an immediate yes, then it would be like, I would need to shut things down or I would need to say no, or I would feel bad about myself or, you know, or like, I wouldn't even think about initiating something sex myself because I wasn't feeling wildly turned on in that moment. And what I've come to realize, and this comes along with talking about sex a lot, is that it's very easy to get turned on. If you'd know, okay, if we start talking about this, I'm probably going to be turned on because this is a sexy topic. Or if we start kissing each other with our clothes off, I am probably going to get turned on because that is what tends to happen, happen. So for me, that's just really transformed my own relationship with my sex drive is just re, you know, shifting the question for myself. If not like, oh, am I wildly turned on in this, in this one moment? Because the reality is, throughout the course of my day of, you know, work and other life stuff, like, there are not a lot of moments where I'm just, like, wildly turned on out of nowhere. It's more like I have to create that by thinking about it, by talking about it, by starting to take a couple actions which tend to lead to that. And I've learned to just trust that, oh, if I do these two simple things that maybe take a couple minutes, I'm going to be really turned on, and I'm going to really want to have sex and I'm going to feel really good afterwards, and we're going to feel really connected, and that's like a really positive thing. And it just took a long time for me to build that habit of doing, of asking that question of myself instead of the am I turned on? Yes or no.

All right. Okay. Number 11, I have identify your logs. So this is something from the book. People are always talking about like, why does the spark fade? Why does the spark die?

Why does the fire go out?

Yeah. In long term relationships. And I think that the right question to be asking instead is like, well, why would it stay alive? Are you putting any logs onto the fire? Are you feeding wood to the fire? And so, yeah, I started talking about our logs as, like, these simple daily things that we can do to add to the fire to keep it burning. Especially exploring the Saxon relationship and the personal development space. Like, I've come across so many incredible ideas for making your relationship better and optimized and healthy and happy. And there was a certain point where I started just get overwhelmed by all the different possibilities. And it almost felt like I had to create this really elaborate routine of, oh, we have to do this and we have to do this and we have to do that. And the reality is that a lot of us are busy. We've got a lot on our plates. We're overwhelmed. And so I started thinking about this idea of logs in a much simpler way. Like, what are some very easy, doable, practical things that I could do that will keep me feeling connected to Xander, keep us feeling connected to each other. And so identifying like those, even just the bare bones of, like, here's what we need to keep that thread of connection alive between the two of us. So for us, one of the things that we've identified is our little connection ritual at the end of the day where we get into bed together, we have some skin to skin contact. We make out, we hold each other. It takes two minutes. I mean, when we're really tired, sometimes it's like 30 seconds.

We can do it quick. When we do it, we can do it quick.

But it's just that it's that little moment of connection that we both know that we can rely on. And it fuels us and it keeps us going. So figuring out, I mean, and it could be one thing, it could be three things. But like, what are those needle movers for you like, sure, I love it when I get a compliment or I love it when my partner takes out the trash. But what's really meaningful to me is this particular thing. So if you can identify your needle movers and focus on just doing that, and especially in hard times, It'll give you some momentum and some motivation to keep working on your relationship in other ways, too.

And sometimes doing it even when you don't really want to do it. Because, like, I think about our little bedtime ritual, and very often it's like, we get into bed, we're really tired. The way that the dogs are arranged in bed with us, it's, like, gonna be hard for us.

Us.

So one person is going to have to get out of bed, and it's cold, and they're going to have to come over to our side so that we can cuddle. And maybe, you know, the dogs are kind of pushing us over, so there's not a lot of room on either side of the bed. And it's kind of like, oh, maybe we could just lie here without doing it. But it's like every time we do it, it feels really good, and it's like something that, you know, after it's over, I'm like, yeah, that was. It's 100% of the time worthwhile to do. So I think where some people can get tripped up with this is thinking that these things have to be that they. That they just naturally want to do all the time. Because the reality is, sometimes you're going to want to do it, sometimes you're not going to want to do it. But often the reason why they're needle movers is because you just make yourself do it because you know that you're going to be happy with the outcome.

Yeah.

All right, so my next one, number 12. We're almost there, babe. Is I can't control how Vanessa feels or reacts to something. And I think this is. This is a really interesting one. This one builds a bit on, like, some of the previous ones, but especially maybe my first one where, like, think before you talk. I think you can get yourself into some trouble if you go, oh, well, I got to think before I talk. And I got to predict, like, every little thing that's gonna happen. Like, oh, well, if I say this, then she's gonna feel that, and that's not good. So I can't say that. So then what can I say that's going to. To be interpreted by her so that there are no feelings associated with it, because feelings are uncomfortable. And what I've come to realize is that there's a middle ground here. Like, you do need to talk. You do need to express what's going on for you and how you're feeling. And sometimes what you express, you know, like, is going to bring up a feeling in your partner, and that's not for you to control. I think a lot of us, us censor ourselves or don't say things, don't ask for things, because we're so worried what is our partner going to think? What are they going to feel? And we want to, you know, we want to control the way that they feel. Like, we want to avoid. Avoid bad feelings. And when we do that, then we push our own feelings down, our own experience down, and bad things happen when we do that, like, we end up feeling resentful. We end up, you know, suppressing our emotions. And so for me, it's just. It's been an important thing of, like, hey, you know, like, I can control how I share something. I can share it in a respectful way in a, you know, with good communication. But it's not up to me how you're going to feel about something.

Yeah, that I feel like this is another advanced one, so we might need to do a deeper dive on this one at some point in time. But I totally agree, agree with you that it's a very different way of looking at relationships, any kind of relationship, honestly. Okay, my final one, number 13, is to celebrate. Celebrate your relationship and each other. So I think, you know, a lot of times in relationships we can get fixated on the hard things and the challenges. And I know we. We've shared a lot of lessons that we've learned about the challenges, challenging times that we've gone through, But I think that celebrating your relationship is one of the best things that you can do. I mean, it is similar to one of the earlier ones I said about, like, making an active effort to find and call out the positives. It's like finding things to celebrate. So one of my favorite celebrations that we do is we made this ritual out of our anniversary. So our wedding anniversary, which is two months earlier in October. Every year since we got married, we've gone on a trip on our anniversary. And now it's become, like, the thing that I look forward to the most every year of having this special trip to get away and celebrate and recognize. Like, wow, what an awesome thing that we spent another year together. So it doesn't have to be grand celebrations. It could be. I mean, honestly, your tip about, like, compliments or, you know, showing love to each other. That can be another way of celebrating. Sometimes it might even be a daily thing. Like, we got through this day. Holy crap. Like, high fives.

High fives.

We did a lot of high fives with each other.

Or handshake. Handshake. High five.

We did it. So just taking that time to, you know, to call out those big and those small milestones and accomplishments, it's really special.

That's nice, babe. That's really nice.

Thanks, babe.

I appreciate that compliment. Oh, joy. Oh, not compliment. That love lesson. You're. You're killing it with your lessons.

Wow. Thanks.

If I say you're killing it with blank, that's like the cheat code to Vanessa's heart. It's true. I have learned. All right, so number 14 for me is we literally vowed to be there for each other, so ask for help when you need it.

Oh, I was interesting.

I was reminded of this maybe like a week or two ago. I got a. I got a cut on a tiny little scratch on my finger that ended up getting infected. And it was really gross and painful, and I needed to, you know, keep it covered. And we were on a trip, and I was like. I was like, God, it would be like, I really wanted to. It sounds so sad. It sounds so sad.

Wait, no, I have to tell a story. So we were getting ready in the morning, and we were in the bathroom, and I had taken a shower. That morning, Xander was not allowed to. To get his cut wet. And so he just gazes wistfully into the shower. He's like, I sure wish someone was here to bathe me so I could take shower. And I. I responded, oh, you mean somebody who literally took vows to be there with you in sickness and health and support you whenever you needed help? Like, what are you talking about, dude? So, but it was such a shock to you that you were like, oh, you'll help me take a shower? I was like, yeah, I'll help you take a shower. Like, get your butt in there and hold your hand up.

Yeah, I mean, like, I didn't. I didn't even think to ask. I didn't even think to ask. And then as soon as she said it, I was like, oh, yeah, she's my wife. She loves me. She cares about me.

Like, yeah, she does a little spongebob.

She doesn't ever bathe me, but I could ask her to do this this one time because. Because I need some help. And. And that was just. Yeah, it. It felt good to hear you remind me of that. And so I wrote that down as a reminder because I think that very often we can, you know, just think, okay, yeah, I'm. I'm a self sufficient person. I know how to do, like, I do this all the time. And then it's like, if you're ever In a situation where you're struggling with that one thing, you feel like you can't ask for help. Cause somehow you've. I've committed to always bathing myself in the shower because I have hands that we work, you know, but, you know, when. When I have a moment where my finger is not capable of doing the job that it usually does, I can ask Vanessa for some help.

Oh, that's a very nice one. Okay, well, let's wrap things up. We asked our team to pick number 15, since, you know, we had to keep it even between the two of us. So let's. Let's press this little. But. Oh, my God. There's more than one.

It does say bonuses from the team.

We couldn't see this before. We had to press a button to. To do this. Okay, well, should we trade off reading these?

All right, let's do it.

Okay. Someone wrote, it is okay to make your own rules for what works in your relationship. Perfect example. That is kind of funny is their farting rule.

Who wrote this?

Xander fart all the time.

All the time. I'm farting right now to whoever wrote this. I. I don't fart all the time.

I disagree. You fart a lot.

So. Hey, this. This isn'. This is one about, you know, validity of experience. Okay.

I honor your experience that you don't fart very often. And I hope you honor mine that you fart all the time.

Yeah, And I'll try to fart more to even more conform to that experience.

Okay. Xander farts all the time, and it would make her crazy. But as a compromise, he can fart outside or in the bathroom. And even if she is right there, it is completely acceptable because it is the farting free space. The farting free space, I think is how I should have said it. Like, you're allowed. Yes, you're allowed to fart in the bathroom. And I. I will not get upset. An excellent way to accept who a person is, but to find a way to keep it from being a continuous thing to snipe at about each other.

I'm glad that that's the one thing we've taught you.

Oh, my God.

All right, well, I got a shorty. It's never too early to work on your communication. Turn offs are as important as turn ons. Talking about sex is sexy. Foreplay is king and queen.

Next one is quality over quantity when it comes to sex. So easy to get caught up on how often. But that matters way less than how you actually feel when you're having sex. Oh, and that there will always be changing seasons in a relationship. Relationship. Accepting that things will ebb and flow makes things feel way less scary when you are feeling distant from your partner.

And then finally, don't feel guilty about having low energy. I'm prone to worrying about everything, but especially my partner and how much I'm doing for them. When I'm too tired to give them my 100%, I normally feel awful about it. Reading V&X's thoughts on mental load has really helped me feel more comfortable with admitting when I'm tired or stressed and being okay with that. Tangentially related, we both used to wonder why we'd feel so tired after just a little sex. And then we learned that there are way more comfortable ways to do things. Don't try to be a porn star are words that we live by now. Haha.

Well, thank you to our team for coming up with these. Glad that we could be the inspiration behind these lessons. So that's all right. Well, I guess these are bonuses. Those are like 18 lessons learned in 15 years.

We packed a lot into those 15 years.

We did well. It's been such a great Joy to spend 15 years of my life with you.

Thank you. You've been the best wife I could ever ask for.

Thanks, babe. So we will link Sex Talks, our upcoming book for you in the show notes. You can also just go straight to sex talks book.com we're going to try.

To find that photo.

You will find that photo.

Freak dancing.

Yes. We will put that photo in the show notes. So go check it out. There should be a link to it down in the description.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about conflict.

We're going to be talking about fighting fair and we have some examples of fights that people in our audience have gotten into a text message fight. So we do have the objective play by play of what happened.

We're going to break for our own experience.

Yeah, we're going to break. Break it down. I'm so excited about this episode because we got the fights already. We read through them and we're gonna go through like point by point and show you how you can fight more fair, how you can handle conflict in your relationship. Because I think that's definitely, that's been a big lesson that we've learned. So these, I'm glad these episodes are coming out next to each other because I think we've gotten pretty good at handling conflict.

Thanks babe.

Yeah. We'll see you next week, Sam.