Episode 88: How To Decide If You Should Have Kids Or Not. And Are We Still Child Free By Choice?

A lot of people said, like, I just had not thought about it as a choice before. My religion or my culture, my family, you know, just really gave me this impression that it was something that I had to do, it was expected and it's kind of, you know, it's like the next step in the sequence of how our life is supposed to unfold. So a lot of people said, like, this made me think and realize this actually is a choice. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast where you, your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Okay, babe, are you ready to go there today?

We are going there again.

We're going there again. We are revisiting the most popular topic that we talked about in all of 2022.

In all of Pillow Talk's history.

Yeah. And all of Pillow Talk's history. And by far too, like, this is our most popular episode by far. It wasn't even close with number two.

Nope.

And that is episode 37, the truth about why we are Child free. We, we had a sense that this was going to be a powerful episode, but we really had no idea that it was going to be this impactful for so many people. And no clue that it would be our number one episode by far. And that was also like one of the most vulnerable, the most vulnerable episode we've ever recorded. Like, it was incredibly challenging for us. Very emotional. I know there were parts of the whole podcast preparation and recording and editing process where we were kind of doubting, like, do we actually want to put this out? Do we really want to go there? We even did a like, last minute edit of it because we were just feeling so nervous about putting it out there. So we're really glad and honored that it has resonated with so many people. And it just seemed very clear right from the beginning that we would need to do some sort of follow up episode. And thanks to Dipsea for supporting Pillow Talks. Dipsea is an audio app full of short, sexy stories. If you're looking to light a spark or heat things up, there is a story waiting for you. And you, you can get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com pillow and thank you to Cozy Earth for supporting Pillow Talks. Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for Pillow talks listeners today. 35% off site wide when you use the code Pillow Talks. Today we're doing a follow up. It feels like we have the perfect little environment to do it. As we're recording this, it is a very rainy day. It is like pouring rain all day long.

You can probably hear it in the background.

Yeah. So we're nice and cozy, tucked into our office, just having this cozy little rainy day. But we're going to go back and talk about some of the things that have come up for us since we recorded this episode. We're going to talk about where we currently stand, about our decision to be child free. We're going to talk about how it has shifted throughout the year and even, you know, since the episode came out. And we're also going to talk a lot to people who aren't sure if they want to have kids or not. That was something that we heard back very frequently from our audience. People saying, you know, it was great to hear you guys sharing your decision, but like, I feel so torn, so stuck, and I don't know how to make this decision. So we really wanted to talk specifically to that group of people and share some tips. We have advice from people who have chosen to be child free. We have advice from people who have chosen to have children. So I just, I'm excited to dive in. Cause I already know that this is going to be a very, very powerful episode.

Yeah, absolutely. But before we get into all that vulnerability, we want to be vulnerable again and ask for your support in the biggest project that we have ever embarked on, which is writing our book. And we are coming into the final stretch. The book is coming out. It's really real. It's really real. The book is coming out on February 7th. If you're listening to this as the podcast is coming out, that's like two weeks or so. Less, less than two weeks. I'm trying to do. Trying to do math in my head.

Comes out February 7th.

Ye so I mean, it's coming out really soon and we need your support because presales are so, so important. They are the number one predictor of a book success. The more pre sales we get, the more people ultimately we will be able to reach with this book who have never heard of us, who don't listen to the podcast, who don't follow us, and who desperately need to have these conversations that we talk about in our book.

So the book is called Sex Talks. It is the five conversations that every couple needs to have to have a truly extraordinary sex life. So you know that you should be talking about sex in your relationship, but most of us really struggle to do it. We don't know how to do it. What do I say, when do I say it, how do I say it? And so we really lay out for you, step by step, exactly what to do to have an extraordinary sex life.

That's right. And so we are just trying to make it so easy, so simple for you to decide to pre order the book. So what we're doing is if you're. If you pre order the hardcover version of the book, we are going to give you a ton of things for free. And in fact, we are also going to make it possible for you to effectively get the book for free. So listen on. I'll tell you how that works.

Listen on, listen on.

Let me. Let me tell. Xander's going to tell you. So first of all, first thing you get as soon as you preorder the book is our Dirty Talk 101 guide that costs $69 on our website right now. So right there, if you want that Dirty Talk guide, you are saving money by just buying the book, because the book costs like 22 to $25, depending on where you get it. So that right there makes it worth its while off the bat.

But we're not stopping.

Yeah, but we're not stopping there. Oh, boy. Now we're getting into infomercial the next.

15 minutes, and we'll double your order.

But, like, that's basically what we're doing. So. Because this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna give you our sexual bucket list, which costs 29. People are spending 29 on that today.

And feeling like it's worth, like.

Yeah. And feeling like it's worth way more than that. Then you're also gonna get our how to know what you want in the bedroom master is a $19 value right there. Then you're also gonna get our how to talk about sex, even if you never have before, which is a great way to bridge the gap between today, pre ordering the book and waiting for it to come. We're gonna give you a couple things that you can do to get started talking about sex right now. You don't even need to wait till February 7th. You're gonna get a digital workbook for the book, which is gonna be super fun. There's gonna be journal prompts, extra questions, exercises. Yeah, it's gonna be super, super valuable. A virtual event ticket to our book launch event which will probably be happening in March or so. We got to give people to actually, you know, we would love for you to all read the book like day one. But the reality is some, you know, people take time to read the book. We want you to take your time and take it all in. That's going to be super fun. And then finally the Coupe de Grace. Oh yeah, the Coupe de Grace. I'm busting out some French. I don't speak French. Coo. Coup de grass. Not coop, whatever. In English I think people say the cow. The cow de grasse. You know, I mentioned, I mentioned that we were going to give you a way to basically get the book for free even if, you know, even if all the value of those other things wasn't enough. What we are doing for upcoming intimate or nasty challenge event which will be opening the doors of on February 1, which is, which is our super, super, super popular sex challenge and connection challenge. You can choose one, you can choose both for a major discount. We are going to give you $30 off of that if you have already pre ordered the book. So reminder, the book costs 22 to $25. We decided to throw in a couple extra bucks and you are going to get that off of that purchase. So yeah, we have no control over how much the book is sold for. We can't sell the book so we can't give you a book for free. But what we can do is we can take that money off of something else that we are selling you. So that is our way of giving you the book for free. I know it sounds crazy, but we just want to do everything. It is, it is a bit crazy, but we just, we just want to put our best foot forward with the book. We want to try to get this book in as many people's hands, in as many people's bedrooms as possible. So go to sex talks book.com sex talks. Talk is plural. Sextalksbook.com pre order using one of the links that we have given you. And then remember, come back to the page, go to step two. You have to fill in a little form with some of your purchase information and then we will send you all those stuff, all those freebies, all those goodies for free. It's that easy.

So we just want to say thank you in advance for your support. We really need your support in helping make this book a success. And we wanted to give you this honestly like wild and bananas bundle of free stuff. Just to make it feel like a total no brainer. Even if you're not a book person, even if you're not a hardcover person, that like, you would just see this incredible value that we're willing to give you to say thank you for supporting the book.

Yeah. Or you can even gift the book to someone else if, you know, you'd rather buy the audio version or the Kindle version. Unfortunately, we can only offer this deal to people who purchased the hardcover because this is just a weird quirk of the book world when it comes to how they track sales for, you know, bestseller lists and for bookstores, they really only track the hardcovers. So if you want another version, buy that other version. Also buy the hardcover and give it to a friend. It makes a great gift.

All that information is atsex talks book.com and thank you guys again for your support. Okay, so let's get into it. So, like we were mentioning a few minutes ago, like, we were really surprised at how big of a reaction this episode got. And you know, a lot of the feedback has been really lovely. I mean, we've, we get so many kind messages from people who say that they appreciated our vulnerability, appreciated us for just being willing to go there and talk about such a sensitive subject and be so honest about our experiences. We also heard from lots of people who have already decided to be child free just saying that they really appreciated the validation. You know, this is something that we just don't hear people talking about that often. So I think being able to hear, you know, a couple us like saying this is a decision that we've made, it can feel really validating to a lot of people.

We even heard from a lot of people who were like, oh my God, I've never even heard the term child free. But just hearing it was so validating, or, you know, permission giving, so to speak, and being like, oh, I didn't even realize that was an option. I didn't really even realize that was a term. But hearing it, just hearing it naturally, it just sounds like, oh, yeah, okay. Like it's like, it can be my choice to be child free. It's not something that is necessarily being imposed on me. Or it's like, you know, kind of this negative or derogatory term.

Yeah, I mean, similar to that. A lot of people said that the episode, it felt like it gave them permission to consider whether or not they want to have kids. A lot of people said, like, I just, just had not thought about it as a choice before. My religion or my culture, my family you know, just really gave me this impression that it was something that I had to do, it was expected, and it's kind of, you know, it's like the next step in the sequence of how our life is supposed to unfold. So a lot of people said, like, this made me think and realize this actually is a choice. We also heard from parents who said that they really appreciated how much we've thought through our decision. A lot of parents were sharing with us, like, you know, now that I've become a parent parent, I have this understanding of how difficult, how big this job really is. And I appreciate, like, hearing you guys take it so seriously, because I think a lot of us. Not that people don't take it seriously, but I think because we're given this impression that it's not even a choice, that sometimes we don't even. And there's no way to know until you actually do have a kid, just how hard it is.

I was gonna say, I don't think. I don't think anyone can ever fully know how. How difficult something will be or how challenging something will be or how serious something will be. Even if, you know, lots of people are saying, hey, this is a really. This is a big thing. But, you know, I mean, so it's not like. It's not like there's anything wrong with people if. If you realize, oh, my God, this was harder than I thought. I think that's totally normal and natural. But, you know, like, I think a lot of people went, oh, well, I listened to that episode. I saw how much you guys were considering it. When I went through it, I didn't consider it as much as you did. And so I can appre. You know, and now I see how challenging it is. So I appreciate that you are going through it in this level of detail that maybe I didn't go through.

Yeah. And to be completely transparent, we also did have a lot of negative and even cruel reactions to that.

We knew those were coming.

We knew they were coming, but it was still hard to receive them. I mean, it's just, you know, when you put yourself out there and you are that vulnerable to. Then have somebody kind of kick you when you're, you know, exposed, like, exposing yourself. That sounds like the weird thing, but kind of when you're. I don't want to say kicking you when you're down.

When you're vulnerable.

Yeah, kicking you when you're vulnerable. Like, it. It hurts it. You know, even when you're kind of bracing yourself for it, it still hurts. But we Absolutely. Got called selfish. We, you know, got DMs from people saying they just couldn't comprehend why we would, you know, ever make this kind of decision. And we needed to grow up and stop being so immature and only thinking of ourselves. And there definitely have been some people who have used our decision kind of as a weapon against us when they disagree with something that we share. Like, on social media in particular, you know, there's. We tend to see the comment of, like, oh, well, this is where your decision to not have kids really bites you in the ass. Like, you guys could never understand. And, yeah, it gets wielded as this insult. And, you know, to be totally clear, the reason that we do talk about some parenting stuff, and it's not. We're not talking about how to be a parent, but we talk about, you know, parenting and sex and relationships. And the reason that we do that is because I am a marriage and family therapist. I have a master's degree. I have a license. I got training. My clinical training is working with families.

Yeah. For thousands and thousands of hours.

Yeah. So, I mean, if this was just like, regular dude Xander and regular gal Vanessa, like, we probably wouldn't talk about, you know, something that complex.

I believe the term you were looking for was regular dudat dudette.

Oh, yeah, I missed that opportunity. Regular dudette. We wouldn't. But, you know, we talk about it because this is a part of my training. But I think we're always really respectful when we do. You know, we say we have no freaking, freaking clue what it's like. And even if we were parents, we would have no freaking clue what it would be like for you as a parent, you know, what your family is like, what your kids are like. So we try to provide resources. We try to, you know, share advice and tips from other parents. I think we do it in a very humble way. But, yeah, we, you know, we frequently get it. This whole, like, you don't get it and how dare you kind of thing, you know, wielded against us. So. And that can be challenging. We're always open to hearing people share other viewpoints and thoughts and sharing like, hey, this is. That's not something that works for my family, but this is something that we've found works. But when it's. When it's kind of wielded as an insult of like, yeah, your decision really bites you in the ass, like, that's not very nice.

Also, Vanessa skipped over some of the perhaps nastiest responses that people have. Have had to us. I mean, for example, you know, I've. I've had a lot of, like, a lot of men comment like, oh, you must not be a real man if you don't have the desire to have kids. Because, like, real men want to spread their seed, which is total bullshit. And in addition to that, there's also. That's also been used against Vanessa as well in that, like, oh, well, like, no. Like, no. No man would ever want to be with. With a woman who doesn't want kids. Because that's all a woman is for.

And that's all a man wants.

And that's all a man wants.

I mean, I know it's like insulting on both ends.

Yeah, it's. It's kind of insulting for the person saying it. Like, that's really all you think life is about.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there have been people saying things like, you know, oh, God, there have been weird comments of like, you can tell in his eyes that he is lying. Like, he secretly wants kids and he's gonna leave you.

I mean, I would, I would have left a long time ago if that was the case, man.

I know. I mean, obviously there are trolls all over social media, so, like, we, you know, sometimes the meaner comments are actually the ones that are a little bit easier to let go of because they're so ridiculous. But I mean, I, you know, I won't deny it. It hurts at times and it makes. It makes it feel hard to. I mean, I. I have some amount of nervousness doing this follow up episode because I know we're just kind of opening the door up again and there's gonna be some, you know, fun comments that come through for this one, but we're already part of the way into this, so I guess we're just gonna continue going. So let's. Let's talk about an update. So, Xander, have we changed our minds about being child free?

We have not changed our minds.

Dramatic. Wow.

Yeah. I mean, we just watched Love is Blind and, you know, so I'm just inspired by like, on the Altar.

Oh, God. I do.

I do not.

Yeah. We have not changed our minds. We are both feeling pretty solid about our decision to be child free.

But we talk about it a lot.

We talk about it a lot. And we have had moments throughout this year where I think in the first episode we brought up the concept of, like, percentages. We were like, how. What percentage of you wants to have kids? And I think we were both at like 10%.

I think I was higher. Maybe. Was I like 15?

You have, you have Had a couple times throughout the year where you've crept up to 15%. And. And. And I mean, mostly it's been when you've hung out with kids, which is the same for me. You know, we have some kids in our life, and they're super adorable and cute, and they're getting into those fun ages. And, yeah, after spending time with them, there is that little bit of a tug of, like, oh, man. Like, this is, like, some parts of this are really fun. We're missing. We're gonna be missing out on this experience.

I mean, you know, I think one of the things I probably mentioned in the first. In the original episode was, you know, like, I will see. I will see, like, kids surfing with their dads, and that. That pulls at my heartstrings a bit because it. That just sounds like such a beautiful thing to be able to be able to do. Then, of course, I also remind myself that there's no guarantee that your kid is gonna love surfing. Like, they might hate it, and it might actually feel like a punch in the nuts when you're like. Like, I want to do this thing that. That brings me so much joy, and I want it to bring you joy, too, and you just don't like it. I mean, I can think about that. Like, my. My parents really wanted me to play piano, and I did play piano for a long time, and I really hated it. And I don't think I really even fully felt comfortable telling them how much I hated it until later on, once I finally stopped. So, you know, it's like, I know that that's. That's totally an option. However, there's been really good waves here recently, and I've been seeing so many kids surfing with moms and dads out there. And, yeah, there's part of me that's like, man, that. That would be pretty special.

Yeah, for sure. And even preparing for this episode, you know, asking parents, like, tell us what it's like, and what advice would you give to a couple that's struggling to decide and reading over some of the responses and just hearing you guys, you're seeing you guys talk about your love for your children and those special moments and the things that make all the hardships worthwhile? Like, it's. Yeah, it feels sad. So I think, yeah, we. We both have those experiences of moments where we feel sadness, where sometimes we even feel a little bit of doubt start to creep in. And we'll get back to this later in the episode, but I think we both do a good job of allowing ourselves to feel those feelings and of also reminding ourselves that, you know, those little moments are not the entirety of being a parent and deciding to have kids and also of allowing each have those moments because we've had them at different times.

Yeah. Can I ask you, have you had. What are. What's the equivalent of your surfing moment? Do you have any moments where you, like, have any similar. Like, oh, when I see. You know.

You know what? You know what really gets me? It's actually not very sentimental. But what really gets me is when we do Spill It Saturdays about, like, tell us the funniest, weirdest, creepiest things your kids have said about sex or relationships or bodies or. I mean, it just like. Yeah, it cracks me up so much. And I just think of how much fun it would be to be in those, like, goofy moments where you're looking at your kid like you just said what? Like, you know, it just. It feels fun, I think, just laughing, you know, laughing with kids and the things that come out of their mouths and how silly they can be like that. That definitely brings up this sense of like, ah, man. So I actually have a couple of girlfriends who they have told me, like, I'll send to you, I'll send you notes, like little voice notes when my kids. Something weird. So you can good kind of secondhand, have that experience.

Let us live vicariously through you and your child.

Yeah. So there are. Yeah, there are definitely those kinds of moments. When I think about, like, man, that sounds really fun.

Yeah.

Just sounds like a lot of fun and a lot of laughter.

Absolutely.

So, you know, when we originally posted that episode, like I was saying, a lot of people reached out to us and said, you know, how did you make this decision? Like, tell me more. I'm struggling with it. So. So we decided to ask our Instagram audience and see, get a sense of where everybody is. So 71% of our Instagram audience say that they either want to have kids or they already have kids. 9% say that they don't want to have kids. And then 11% of people are undecided, which feels like a. I mean, 11%, just as a number is low. But thinking about what a huge decision this is, like, that 11% of people are undecided. That does feel like a significance.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously this is overly liberal, but if you add the nine and the 11 together, that's, you know, up to 20% of people or, like, one in five people who, you know, adults who, you know, may not have kids.

Those numbers don't add up. I must have put some, like, fourth response of like, depends or something like that. Yeah, no, those numbers don't add up.

We are missing 9%. Vanessa, what's going on here?

Hold on. We need to, we need to double check the, the poll here.

Welcome to intermission.

Okay. We had a quick double checking break. I did give a fourth option. It's complicated. That was 9%. So I said for it's complicated, like, for example, maybe you decided that you want kids, but you're struggling with fertility, or you decided that you didn't want them, but then you got pregnant and decided to see the pregnancy. There are always so many, like, situations that don't fit neatly into little boxes. So I try to give that kind of response whenever I can. So that was. 9% of people said that it just is a complicated situation. So we put up a few more polls. Next, we asked if you already decided to have kids, how hard or easy did it feel to make that decision? So people who know that they want to have kids. And we gave four options. Very hard, somewhat hard, somewhat easy, and very easy. And so the pattern here was that the majority of people, 52% said that it was very easy, 28% said somewhat easy. So that's like 80% of people who said that it was easy in some way or another. Only 5% said very hard and 14% said somewhat hard.

Very interesting. Yeah. So. Yeah.

And then if. Yeah. Why don't you contrast that for us with. With deciding to be child free.

Yeah. So deciding to be child free, not so easy. 23% of people said it was very easy. 23% of people also said it was somewhat easy. So that's like 46%. That's like less. Less than half of people are saying that it was easy at all. Then we have 28% saying it was somewhat hard and 27% very hard. So.

So this, yeah, it was interesting.

Kind of like a 60, 40 type thing.

But the child free responses were pretty evenly split between all four of those categories. So it's. Yeah, overall it was a harder choice and more spread out versus deciding to have kids felt a lot easier overall. And I just, I wonder how much of that is the socialization of people feeling like it's not acceptable or even permissible at all to be child free. So it's just, it's something that we struggle with so much more than the decision to have kids.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, if you even think about our own story, when we first met and even when we were getting married, we Both just assumed that we were going to have kids. And so if we had decided to have kids, it probably would have been a somewhat or very easy decision, given that we had always already assumed that we were going to do it. Like, it would only have gotten into, like, challenging decision territory if I think we had already decided, no, we're pretty sure we're not going to have kids, or we're definitely not going to have kids and then we changed our mind. Right?

Yeah. So let's get into some tips that we have about what to do if you are struggling with whether or not to have kids. So the first quick thing that I want to say that's incredibly important is recognize that it is a choice. I think this is so important to recognize that you have the choice. It's your body, it's your relationship, it's your life. Like, you get to decide whether or not to have kids. And like we were mentioning earlier, so many people just, just never realized that that was an option. And I think that when we truly see it as an option, then the decisions on either end can feel so much more powerful. Like, if you're consciously deciding to have a child, that's gonna feel better for you than just like, yeah, this is the thing that I'm supposed to do next in my life because I'm of this age and I am married or, you know, whatever it is.

So, yeah, I mean, well, first of all, when you do something that feels like, like you have no agency in it, it's very easy to. To build up, resent towards whoever it.

Is that you resent.

Resentment. I was like, sorry. To start to. To feel resentment.

Coup de grace.

Yeah. To start feeling resentment towards whomever or whatever you feel like forced you to make that decision. So it changes from like, oh, well, I'm doing this because I have to do it. To like, oh, well, my. Oh, well, my parents made me do it and then like, oh, screw them for making me do it. How dare they like it. That's how over time, these things just sort of evolve in our heads versus when we can recognize, I am making this decision. We tend not to really resent ourselves. Yeah, I don't know what it is about resentment that we tend to only focus it on other people rather than.

Feel resent for ourselves. Resentment towards other people.

Oh, okay, maybe, maybe. I mean, I know some people do resent themselves. I'm not saying that you can't feel that, but I think that when you have agency and you go, oh, okay, like, I made that decision, and then You. You. It's much easier to come to acceptance over. I made that decision. I can accept the fact that I made this decision or that we made this decision rather than, like, you know, it's. It's. It is challenging to accept when other people make decisions for you.

Our next tip kind of goes hand in hand with that one, which is really to focus on yourself and to remind yourself this is your decision and your decision only. So we asked our Instagram audience if they felt pressured to have kids regardless of what decision they made. And 68% of people said that they felt pressured to have kids.

So, yeah, not surprising.

Big majority of people said that they felt that external pressure.

We, for sure. I mean, I'm surprised that number isn't higher.

I honestly am, too.

We are in that group. Group of 68, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of people who said. Who reached out and said, like, honestly, I didn't feel direct pressure, but that was because it was so much of. It had been in my head, so much of an expectation that I didn't even consider the possibility of.

Or I guess it could also just be like, I didn't wait long enough for there to be. You know, it's like, oh, well, like, we got married and then, like, we started having kids, like, yeah, pretty soon. So, like, there wasn't, you know, we did it so quick that there wasn't the chance to get the pressure.

I also think that, you know, if you are currently in a relationship, it can be useful to try to separate out your partner's perspective and really focus on how you feel. And that was something that Xander and I talked about a bit in episode 37 of Recognizing. Like, fortunately, we both changed our minds and decided that we didn't want to have kids. But we recognized that this really is an individual decision. And we talked about what would happen if one of us had remained wanting to have kids and the other changed their mind. And we also an Ask us Anything episode, like, a few months ago where somebody asked, like, what would you do now if one of you changed your mind and said, I want to have kids? And we were very, you know, really honest in that response that, like, we. We view this as an individual decision. And, like, if Xander did change his mind and, like, I would respect that, I would still be firm in not wanting to have one. And it may, you know, who knows? But it may have come to this place of Xander having to decide what feels more important, me, like, staying in this relationship with Vanessa, knowing that I won't Be able to fulfill something that feels so important to me in my life or choosing to walk away from this relationship because I want so. You know, I so highly want to have kids. I want to prioritize that, and that's an agonizing decision to make. I'm not trying to make it sound like it's easy.

Well, I mean, just hearing you say that right now, I am feeling agonized inside.

Well, I don't think we're in that situation right now.

Thank God. Thank God we are not. But, no, I mean, just feeling through, like. God, the. The thought of. The thought of leaving you. I love you so much.

I know, but I. I can also respect that. Like, if you truly changed your mind and you felt like having kids is something that I need to do, to feel, like, satisfied in life, to feel like I'm living out my life's purpose, like, I love you enough to have respect for you, obviously, that would. It would be devastating if that's what it came to. But, like, I would want you to make the decisions that feel best for you. It does feel like, obviously, it's a couple's decision together, and it is also an individual decision.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's. It's a good. It's a good signal to me that I do not feel strongly about wanting to have kids at all. Because to me, when I hear Vanessa describe that, just the thought of. The thought of, like, leaving a marriage, that. That feels so good and happy and strong just is, like. Feels impossible. So there's. There's, like, zero part of me that would even want to consider that.

Well, I'm glad that you haven't changed your mind so far. I mean, you know, if you changed your mind, that's what Xander said earlier. Like, we keep having conversations about this, you know? Like, we're not. We don't shy away from having these tough conversations. There have been times where Xander came home and said. Said, oh, man. You know, I was playing with our friend's kids, and it was any. He made me this little piece of art, you know, and you've come and you've said, like, yeah, it makes me feel sad. Look at this, like, adorable little piece of art that I got. Like, it makes me think about what it would be like to have my own kid. And. And I have been willing to sit in that with you and not shy away. Like, it does make me. I will be fully honest. Like, there have been times where I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, is he gonna start to Change his mind. Like, I'm getting a bit. Little bit scared, but I also, at the same time, can, like, make the space for. Yeah, I get it. That's super cute. I, like, I would probably feel that too.

Yeah. I mean, I. I think so many people shy away from having that honest type or vulnerable type of conversation because they're so worried about what the consequence could be if, you know, if you come away with different perspectives on it, and it's like you're already making. It's. It's like you're thinking, oh, well. Well, it's better to just not even have that conversation so that we. So that we don't risk our relationship coming to an end or something like that. But, like, the reality is, I hate to say it, but, like, your relationship, at any point, your relationship or your marriage can come to an end for all kinds of reasons. So it's. I think we, like, accidentally create this sort of false thing in our mind where we think, okay, cool, well, if we just don't have that conversation, then, like, it's not gonna. Like, we're gonna be good. It's not gonna end. And it's like, no, there's all kinds of things that could cause your relationship to come to an end. So don't, like. Don't shy away from. Yeah, don't shy away from honesty. Don't shy away from the vulnerable stuff because there's. There's always gonna be something else out there that. That is a hazard or a risk.

And that's what I'm saying, too. Like, you know, if you were to come to me and say, like, I'm just really feeling like I'm changing my mind, like, you know, I would need to feel into it in that moment, like, what. That. What that stirs up for me. And that would need to be a conversation and a process. It's not just like an immediate, like, okay, well, time to leave me kind of thing. But that's why it's so important to have these conversations on an ongoing basis. So one other piece of this idea of, like, focusing on yourself is recognizing that there's so much pressure from so many people coming from every angle, like, no matter what decision you make. So when we put those question boxes up on Instagram, we heard from people who were like, you know, it's not just pressure to have kids. Like, you're also going to have pressure to start earlier. Like, you know, a lot of people were saying at our wedding, people were coming up, like, hey, when are you starting to have kids? Right? And then if you do decide to have a kid, you're going to have pressure to have another kid. If you have a girl, you're going to have pressure to have a boy, or vice versa. If you have kids too quickly, you're gonna get this pressure of, like, you should have waited longer. If you wait too long, you're gonna have pressure of you should have them closer together. So it's just, I think, trying to separate ourselves and realizing, like, no matter what decision I make, there's gonna be people who think I'm making the wrong one. So I just truly need to focus on myself. Before we go any further, let's tell you a little bit more about Dipsea. So I actually learned about Dipsea for the first time from a client back in San Francisco when I was in my private practice days and my client came in, she said that she had found this app and she had really been struggling with feeling low desire. And she told me that she started listening to some of these stories and she was surprised by how much she was turned on. And just that experience of hearing these stories, the voices, the storyline, like the whole experience just felt very immersive and seductive for her. And so I remember checking it out, I started recording, recommending it to clients way back in the day and really finding that a lot of people were just shocked by how big of a difference it made to hear these kinds of sexy stories. So it's really fun to kind of come full circle with Dipsea and have them be one of our Pillow Talk sponsors now. So if this is your first time hearing about Dipsea, they are an app filled with hundreds of short, sexy audio stories designed by women for women. It's radically inclusive. They have stories for straight and queer listeners. 56% of the stories are voice acted by people of color. There's new content released every week so you can listen to your favorite stories over and over again if you find some that you like. Or you can always find something new to explore. For Pillow Talks listeners, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial. When you go to dipseastories.com pillow, that's 30 days of full access for free. When you go to dip sea stories.com that's dipseastories.com pillow. And let's tell you a little bit more about Cozy Earth.

Let's do it.

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And I have a feeling that Pillow Talks listeners are loving Cozy Earth just as much as we are because these Cozy Earth Deals that they give us for these ads just keep getting better. Like what they are offering right now. Now it's crazy good. 35% off site wide when you use the code pillow talks@cozyearth.com and that's cozy.

With a Z. I always have the tendency to want to spell it cozy with an S, but it's with a Z. So Cozy Earth, all their products are softer than cotton. They're made from responsibly sourced soft and sustainable viscose from bamboo fabrics. They are seriously our favorite sheets that we've ever had. Bad.

Absolutely.

They are. Yeah. They just feel so nice against your skin. They're temperature regulating so they keep you cool and comfortable all night long. They have even been on Oprah's favorites list. I mean, what an honor, right? Oprah is very, I would guess, you know, very specific about that favorites list.

I think Oprah knows what she likes when it comes to her sheets.

And Cozy Earth also has a 10 year warranty on all their products and 190 night sleep test, so you can try it out for a hundred nights. If you don't love it, you can send it back for a full refund. I honestly, like, I'm so glad that Cozy Earth keeps renewing being a podcast sponsor because we genuinely love these sheets so much. It, it feels like very easy to recommend these. I have no doubt in my mind that you guys are going to love them as much as we do. And like we mentioned, Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for Pillow Talks. Listeners today get 35% off site wide when you use the code pillow talks@cozyearth.com so going along with this focus on yourself, our next tip is to uncover your why. So this is another opportunity to make sure you're making a decision for yourself and not in response to pressure.

That's why it's called uncover your why not uncover your parents why or your friends why or your church's why or whatever the hell it is.

Yeah, so it's, it's really getting honest with yourself about what are the specific reasons that you want to have kids or want to not have kids. So this really helps you from defaulting to like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is what I'm expected to do and makes you be, you know, think critically about this decision and about what's going to feel right for you. And going along with this, I think there's also something to be said about being willing to accept all possible scenarios of your decision. So, you know, we can sort of think through different reasonings of why we want to have kids or not have kids. And I think a lot of us can go to these places where we try to like script out in our heads like what our lives will look like. And the reality is that you just do not know.

So for example, and you can't control.

You can't control it. So for example, like a lot of people want to have kids because they're like, I want to have this big close knit family. A lot of people in response to our polls were like, yeah, you know, I always envisioned my life with like a big family around the dinner table celebrating every holiday together.

It's like Michael Scott wants to have a hundred children, so you have 100 best friends and no one can ever tell them to whatever.

But the thing is like, there is no guarantee that that's going to happen. You know, like, just like you were saying, you picture these moments of like surfing with your son or your daughter, like, but. And then you said there's no guarantee the kid could be completely disinterested in surfing. A lot of other people said, you know, oh, you have to have kids because who's going to take care of you when you're old? There is no guarantee that your children are going to take care of you when you're old. Like we heard so many people who work in retirement homes saying, like, there are people here with very large families, tons of kids, tons of grandkids, kids. Nobody ever comes to visit them. They are here alone. So I think we need to be really thoughtful of like the ideas that you have in mind of what your life is going to look like. There are no guarantees. So don't have kids because you want somebody to take care of you. Don't have kids because you want to have this super close knit family where you're all so, you know, in love with each other like that. Hopefully that does happen. But there are no guarantees in life.

Life.

Okay, our next tip is to talk to friends that have kids and ask them to be brutally honest with you. So we mentioned this in episode 37 that this happened for us very early on. We were very fortunate to have friends who trusted us enough to be vulnerable and open and it gave us such a more nuanced picture of what this decision really looks like.

Yeah, I think we really had a leg up in this department because, because, you know, because of your career at that point as, as the marriage and family therapist, as a sex therapist, our friends have always been really open and honest about a lot of things going on in their lives. And I think it's just because Vanessa has that therapist energy. People love sharing things with us. And I think you and I are, as a couple, are just, you know, have always been a really safe place for our friends to be able to share vulnerable stuff. And so we were very lucky in that I think a lot of our friends just kind of offered this stuff up to us. We didn't really have to go digging or asking very many questions. So I do want to say for people listening, like, you know, you may need to ask a couple probing questions to try to try to create a safe place for your friends to be able to share where you're saying, hey, like, I'm really curious about this because I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to make a decision. I'm not coming from a place of, like, oh, well, I just have to have kids. It's like, I really want to know what your experience is, like, and I'm not going to, you know, I'm. I'm not going to have. I'm not asking because I want to judge you about being, like, a horrible parent because you have regrets or whatever.

Yeah, I mean, this was something really interesting that came up when we put these question boxes up on Instagram. I think parents do get an unbelievable amount of judgment from other parents. So I think that they. You do develop this way that you become kind of on guard. It feels like you're only allowed to talk about the amazing things about being a parent, the amazing things about your kid, and you really worry about judgment if you start to say anything that might feel harder or more negative. So when we put up those question boxes, there were a ton of parents who. They knew that they were responding anonymously, like, we weren't going to use their information, their username. Like, in this episode, there were a ton of parents who said, I love my kitten, but I regret becoming a parent. If I could go back in time, I would not become a parent. And we were also getting a ton of DMs from people saying, like, oh, I'm a parent. And I always say, become a parent, because you might regret not having kids, but you'll never regret having kids. And I responded back to a bunch of those people, and I was like, actually, the question box that we have up right now is filled with people saying that they do regret that decision. And so it just, like, a couple people responded, and they're. They're like, I've never heard anybody say that. And I was like, yeah, like, that doesn't feel like a safe thing to admit face to face to a friend. Like, I regret having my kids. Can you imagine the kind of judgment that you would face?

So, or can you imagine, like, what your kids, like, if, if it got back to your kids somehow? Like, oh, so of course it doesn't feel safe.

Yeah. So there's a huge difference between what we feel comfortable acknowledging to ourselves or in anonymity versus. Versus what we feel comfortable acknowledging to other people. So, like Xander was saying, like, you can kind of set your friend up to say, like, yeah, I'm, I'm considering this decision. I'm really struggling with it. I would love for you to be brutally honest with me. Tell me about the high highs, tell me about the low lows, everything in between. I promise you, I'm not in judgment of you. I appreciate the honesty. But, you know, also be prepared that they may not be willing to share the full extent of the challenges that come up for them.

Yeah, I mean, if you truly want to go through this exercise, it's probably a good idea to try to have this conversation with a couple people because, yeah, if you're just gonna do it with one person who knows, you know, you might get like, the, the rose colored glasses version from, you know, one person, where it might take a couple people to kind of, to, you know, find a friend who actually does feel comfortable kind of being honest with you. Not, not saying that everyone is holding things back. I'm not saying that, that at all. I'm just saying, you know, acknowledge the fact that there is this societal pressure to kind of only share the rosy version of the story.

Yeah. And also, I just want to go back a second and be totally clear. Like, I am not sitting in any sort of judgment of parents who do regret having children. Like, I think I admire the bravery that it takes to be that honest with yourself and to share that honesty, you know, with us so that we can talk about it with our whole community. Like, I, I, yeah, it's not a judgment of, like, wow, that's really messed up or something. It's like, yeah, this is a really hard fricking job. And I can totally understand, like, feeling, you know, I, I, I understand regretting any decision, to be honest, but I just want to be clear. I'm not judging parents who do regret it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, absolutely not. And, and as you were saying that, I was just thinking that probably, if you can get to the point of being able to acknowledge, hey, yeah, I do have some feelings of regret. About this, that can actually be a very healing thing, because very often when we regret something or we wish we hadn't done something or wish we made a different decision, we hold that in because we feel like, oh, my God, I cannot. I can't admit it. And then in our, you know, in our minds, it just builds up and builds up, and that's where all those, you know, kind of more negative emotions like resentment and regret come from. And so just being able to acknowledge that, even if it's just in a. In an anonymous poll or an anonymous question box on Instagram, is probably a really great first step to feeling a lot better about that, of being able to hold those two things of, you know, I. I have regret, and I have joy and love.

Absolutely. Okay, our next tip is to make sure your relationship is in a good place. I think this is an area where so many couples get into trouble. There is this feeling that having a kid is gonna, like, bring you closer together and heal the, you know, hurt that you guys have caused each other in your relationship. And that just is absolutely a thousand percent not true.

Or. Or just that it will tie you together more. I think some people look at it as, like, oh, well, maybe it's not gonna fix the problems, but it's at least gonna keep us together.

Absolutely.

And unfortunately, that is. That is also not true.

A kid is absolutely not going to save your relationship. And even if they could, that's just a really unfair amount of pressure to put on a child just coming into this world. Like, that's too much responsibility for a kid to have.

Well, I mean, and I think the reality is, I'm sure that plenty of people can. Can attest to this because they experience this as kids, and that your kids can feel that pressure. If that is truly the vibe in your relationship of, like, oh, we're just doing this for the kids. I'm pretty sure that most kids who have lived through that will tell you, oh, yeah, I knew the whole time, like, I was. I was, you know, I. Or we were the ones like the glue holding the family together. And it felt like it was our job to keep the peace. And that that causes so much trauma and creates so many problems, you know, makes it really difficult for you to be able to know, like, what love really is, what a healthy relationship is, et cetera.

And actually, research has found that relationships suffer when a couple first has a kid. So I think it's not even thinking about it as a kid making your relationship better. It's thinking of it that a child is going to weaken your relationship for a pretty significant period of time. So you need to be in such a good place that your relationship can handle being knocked down a few pegs. That can handle, like, the anxiety of worrying about messing it up, of not sleeping, of disagreeing over parenting styles, of feeling like you guys are prioritizing the kids over your relationship. Like, you have to be able to handle all of that. So I think it's important to be honest with yourself about where your relationship is at and if you are truly capable of bringing a child into that relationship. And a couple of great resources here. The book how not to hate your husband. We read this book.

It's so good. It's so good. And, like, we. We have no plans of having kids. And this was still such a good book to read. I mean, I. Yeah, it's really well written.

There's entertaining. It's like a fun read.

Entertaining. There's so much, like, really good educational content in it. It's. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's. It's weird for me to be saying, like, this is one of my favorite books, and it doesn't even apply to me at all. It's just really well done.

And it's not just for women, and it's not just for heterosexual couples either. It's just some really great tips, and I would definitely recommend reading that before deciding to have kids. Also, fair play. I have not read it yet. It's on my list. It's been on my list forever. I just haven't gotten around to it. But a lot of parents said that this was a great book to read to prepare themselves. Okay, our next tip. Reframe regret. So if there was one word that came up more often in all of these discussions, it was the word regret. So many people get hung up on the idea of regretting their decision. And a lot of people even told us, like, the fear of regret, when was the main motivator behind the decision. And this is particularly for people who decided to have kids. Kind of going back to what I said earlier, like, oh, well, you're gonna regret it if you don't have kids. You're gonna get to be 50 and 60, and you're gonna be so lonely and nobody's there with you, and you will have so much regret.

Is it. Is this, like, fear? I'm. I'm just. I. To have this top you. I'm just curious, like, where do you think, as a society this fear of regret comes from? Is this. Is it kind of like a FOMO type thing. It's like more of a, like an emotional FOMO where it's like, instead of it being like, I'm scared of missing out on an activity, it's like I'm scared of feeling.

I mean, that's. We are already going quite long in this episode and that's a whole other episode, so. God, I'm curious over to Instagram at Vanessa and Xander. Let us know if you want us to do a whole episode on regret.

I mean, I'm. No, I'm just curious because, like, that's not something I, I don't find myself. I've definitely dealt with like serious FOMO in the past, but I've never really, I guess personally I've never really dealt with like fear of regret informing my decision. So I'm just curious like, what that's like for others and where that comes from.

I mean, that's. It's definitely popped into my mind before. Like, yeah, will I regret it? Will I get to, you know, even 10 years down the road and be like, oh my God, why did I not do this? I really wish that I had kids. But I think, think for me, it keeps. I keep coming back to this idea of like, it doesn't feel right to make a decision now to avoid the possibility of feeling regret in the future. Because like we were just saying, like, none of us knows what the future looks like and we can't make this enormous life changing decision, literally bringing a new life into this world simply because we're afraid that maybe at some point in the future we might possibly regret it.

Well, because you also maybe in the future might possibly regret making the decision to do it. So I feel like it kind of, it balances out. Like you're, you're just as likely to regret the opposite thing as well.

Absolutely. And I also think, you know, we're all so afraid of regret, but the reality is regret does pop into our lives on a pretty regular basis. Like, whatever you do in life, whatever decisions you make, you are going, going to have moments of feeling regret. Like, I feel regret for small things sometimes. Like I ordered the wrong thing at a restaurant, you know, oh, I really should have ordered the chicken or I should have gotten the pizza instead. So I, I try to think about regret in a different sort of way and think that regret is a sign that I had more than one good option. And that's actually a blessing if you really want to, like, turn regret on its head.

Oh, that's a good reframe, babe.

So, yeah, I mean, Maybe this is a sign that we have to do a whole episode on regret, reframing regret, turning it on its head. So this next tip goes really hand in hand with that last one.

This is a really helpful way to kind of not to get rid of regret. I think people are so hung up on wanting, like, I cannot have any regret. Like, I can't deal with that emotion. But I think what Vanessa is about to describe is a regular. A really good way to soften that feeling of regret or to let it in in a productive way.

So this is something that we brought up in that first episode that I think was the thing that people resonated with the most. So the tip is acknowledge that there will always be a second path, a second life that you will miss out on by making the choices that you make in your current life.

So then in reality, there's like, a different lies, because every moment you're making decisions, and there's a whole other life of, like, what could have happened if you had made the other decision. Whoa. That's like multiple dimensions, bro. Totally tubular.

Okay. For real, though, like, this really resonated with a lot of people. Like, the way that we said it in that first episode was, feeling grief doesn't mean that you made the wrong decision. Feeling grief is just an acknowledgment that you had more than one good option to choose from. And whenever we say yes to something, we're saying no to something else. But just this sense of grief, like, that doesn't mean you should regret it. You should have gone back and made the different decision. And so we talked a lot. I mean, that was the part where we got the most emotional and vulnerable in that episode is like, we feel grief about not having children. We continue to feel grief in those little moments when we. You know, we come back and we're just like, oh, God, I. You know, it's sad. It's hard. And we let ourselves feel that grief and recognize, like, this is not a sign that we made the wrong decision. It's just an acknowledgement that there were more than one good option.

It's an acknowledgement that there are feelings. There are feelings that I'm feeling. And that's. I feel like you can use that almost anywhere. Like, yeah, you can't not have feelings.

And I think that, yeah, this advice applies to so many different decisions that you might make in your life. But I'll say it again. Grief doesn't mean that you made the wrong decision. And our last tip, we've kind of alluded to this one a bunch of times already, but is to keep the conversation open. So I think that it can be really scary when you approach this as like, okay, I've got to make a yes or a no decision. Whether that's just you on your own or you talking to your partner. Like, okay, we've got to make the decision, yes or no. Are we in or out? Are we, are we doing this or not doing it? So I think instead, if we approach it as like, this ongoing conversation, we're continuing to check in with each other, we're continuing to talk about our percentages and how they're fluctuating and where we're at. That's gonna make it feel less scary than like, okay, time to sit down and have the big conversation and once and for all make that big decision. Yeah, so keep that conversation open. All right. And to wrap up this episode, we put, put these question boxes on Instagram and we said, okay, if you have already decided to have kids, if you are a parent, what advice would you give to somebody who is unsure of whether or not they want to have kids? So here are the things that they said. The number one piece of advice that came up over and over and over again. Parents said, if you're debating it, don't do it. And someone even said, if it's not a fuck yet, yes, don't do it. And I, I really resonate with that advice. Like, of course, every decision in life, like, there's always going to be pros and cons, parts of us that want to say yes, parts of us that want to say no. But this is such a big, life changing, enormous decision that I really think, like, that if it really feels like you're torn, like, I guess we have to kind of clarify, like, debating it. We have said, like, we think that people should really think this decision through and to get, you know, feedback from friends and to weigh the true pros and cons. So I think that is making an informed decision. But I want to contrast this to, like, if you have done all this legwork and you're still just like, you're wrestling back and forth, you've been in this unsure place for years. I don't know. I. Gosh, I really don't know if I can. Like, if you're in that place of uncertainty for a really long time, then that's a tough place to have a child in. Like, that it should feel this level of certainty because it's such a life changing decision.

Yeah. Now, if you're listening to this, and you're like, okay, if it's not a yes, don't do it. Like, you, A lot of people might be thinking, well, that's ridiculous because, like, you can't, you can't apply that logic to all decisions because, you know, then like a lot of stuff just wouldn't get done. But I think the difference here is that, yeah, there are a lot of day to day decisions that we might make. Things that we do where we're not a fuck yes on it, but we know, know it's, you know, for the greater good. It's for my partner, it's for my kid, it's for work or whatever. And it's, you know, okay, I'm not like totally loving it, but I, I don't dislike it, but I do think the difference is when you're talking about having kids, this is a, you know, like 20 plus year decision that you're making.

Like, it's a lifetime.

Yeah, it's, I mean, arguably it is a lifetime decision. But, you know, know I'm saying, like, basically you are really fully committed and.

You can't take it back.

Yeah, you can't take it back. You're really fully committing to like at least 20ish years of like real serious stuff. And so that's where it's like, hey, if it's gonna, you know, can you think of anything else where you're just making a decision that is going to impact you for like 20, 20 years to life where you're just like, yeah, I don't feel great about this, but whatever, I'm gonna go with it.

And because it's not just you making a decision for yourself. You're literally bringing a new life into this world. And this was something that we talked about so much in episode 37 of, like, I don't want to look my child in the eyes and think to myself, like, I didn't really wanna have you or like, I was ambivalent about having you or I had you just because I was worried that I might regret not having, you know, you in the future. Like, you want to be able to look. And I'm, you know, I appreciated that parents were so honest about this. Like, yeah, it's such a hard, you know, path. Being a parent is such a hard task that, like, you really want to be able to look your child in the eye and say, like, I knew that I wanted you. I was not ambivalent about this decision.

Yeah. All right. The next piece of advice from our listeners was wait. Once you have kids you will never not be a parent again. Again.

Another person said, get a puppy and see how that goes.

Oh, we did that.

Now, I don't know if they were joking or not because I know a lot of parents can get a little bit offended about, like, you're comparing a child to a puppy. Totally different things. They are absolutely different things.

And having a puppy is a lot, a lot easier. That's the thing.

But I do want to say, like, again, I don't know if this person was kind of joking or being tight, tongue in cheeky a little bit, but there was something for us about getting a puppy that we realized, like, it gave us a little tiny taste of what it was going to be like to constantly be having to think of something else, you know, another creature, another life. To be like, you know, researching how do we do this? Right. And we're anxious about it up. And we're not sleeping. No.

We're like, what's best for the dog? What's best for the dog? Like, how long can we leave the house with him alone? Not that you can do that with a baby. Yeah. Then it's like, okay, well, these are my limitations with a dog. And I can't do, like, any, you know, like, I can't even leave that. I can't leave a baby alone in the house. So, you know, it's like kind of projecting forward. Okay, well, if it is. If it is 10 times harder than this, then how do I feel about that?

And also, to be clear, like, don't just adopt a dog just because you want to, like, test out what it's like to have kids. Kids, like, please, only, only adopt a dog. Adopt, don't shop.

Adopt a dog if you want a dog. Have a kid if you want a kid. If you don't want either of those things, don't do it.

There we go. Okay. And the last piece of advice, this was a, you know, totally different vibe on this one. But somebody wrote, my son is special needs. It's harder than I ever imagined possible. And I think this is something that probably not enough people consider is that, you know, when we picture having a child, child, I think pretty much all of us picture having a child that's like, healthy and happy and. And that just is not the reality for so many families. You know, there are so many tough things that can happen, even, you know, right from birth, from pregnancy. So I think just mentally preparing yourself for, like, can I, you know, can I really go through something this challenging? And that was, I mean, that was something that Came up for me and decided, you know, to be child free or to have children of thinking through that possibility of like, what would it be like to have a child who's really ill, who's really suffering in some way, you know, having to make these like heartbreaking decisions. I mean, there was even somebody that I follow on Instagram whose daughter got into a horrible accident and is never going to be the same ever again. And just thinking through that, like, is that something that my heart could handle? And I know like in the, in the moment, I know that I could.

Rise up and yeah, you find a way.

You find a way. I know I would love my child a hundred thousand million percent unconditionally. I would do whatever it takes. But not yet. Having a child, like thinking through that, like, is that something that I, you know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, when, when you don't, when you don't have one, you don't have to do whatever it takes yet. It's just, it's thinking forward of like, okay, yeah, I know that I could do this if I was in that situation, but I'm, but the reality is I'm not in that situation right now.

Yeah, okay. And then we also put up a box and we said, if you have decided to be child free, what advice would you give to somebody who's struggling to make this decision?

The first one was there are tons of ways to be a prominent figure in a kid's life. They don't have to be your kid.

Yeah, that was actually from one of our team members who has also made the decision to be child free. And I think that's just such a wonderful point to bring up that it's not like no children in your life whatsoever or you have children. Like you can show up for children, you know, your friends, kids, your family members, kids. Like, we are very excited to be the cool aunt and uncle. We're actually, we really have to make an active effort not to put, not to say anything, not to put any sort of pressure on our siblings. But like, I'm very excited to be the cool aunt and I know that I'll have so much love, so much energy, so much support for those kids. And so that makes me feel like, that makes me feel happy and excited and, and it takes away some of the grief that I feel about not having a child of my own because I know that I'm going to be involved in other kids lives. Someone else said babies don't ask to be born. If you are bringing a life into this world, it needs to be a priority, so you need to want it. I know that's something that we've said ourselves as well, but it's just nice hearing people say stuff like this in their own words.

Yeah. Another one was, there is no aha moment. For some of us, we just keep choosing the best choice daily.

And yeah, I love that one because it goes in with our idea about having it be an ongoing conversation, not forcing yourself to, like, you know, we have to decide right in this very moment.

Yeah. I mean, can you just let yourself say, hey, today. Today I am not a yes, today I am a no, whatever it is. And. And then, you know, I'm going to reevaluate tomorrow. Like, living day to day is a pretty good way to get through things in life.

And finally, our last commenter said, FOMO is not the same as the actual desire to have a child.

Yeah. FOMO is all in your head.

Yeah. So I just love this one. Again, it's very similar to stuff that we've said already, but I just really like the way that they phrased that because that's. That's ultimately what it keeps coming back to for Xander and for myself is just thinking, like, do I actually feel the desire to have a child? And the answer day to day continues to be no. And so, despite the grief, despite the moments of doubt, of sadness, the little moments of regret, like, that's just the decision that keeps coming back up for me. So. So that's the decision that I continue to make each and every day, making space for it to perhaps change. But for now, I feel really confident. What about you?

I feel quite confident. Yes.

All right.

I do.

Woo. This is a long one. This might. I feel like we just recently had our longest episode ever. This might top it.

We'll see.

We got a lot to say and we. We have even more things. We honestly could make a part three to this. So let us know what you thought of this episode, what you think of this topic, what it got, what got stirred up for you?

Is there anything else you want to know?

Please don't send any mean comments. Though. Our hearts are still feeling sensitive.

We're. We're real people, not, you know, fake Internet people.

We who are fake Internet people.

I don't know. I think a lot of people that send mean things on the Internet, it's just, like, aren't thinking, like, oh, this is a real person that, like, I could be friends with in real life. Like. Like, you wouldn't say something like that to one of your friends. So we're not, you know, we're not face faceless. We're right here.

All right. And as a reminder, we would just love your support of our book Sex Talks. It comes out so soon.

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Today'S episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk a little bit more about that intimate or nasty challenge I alluded to earlier when we were talking about the book. We are going to be sharing real stories from you all who have been through the challenge and just how transforming going through our sex challenge or our connection challenge or both can be. It's going to be a real good one because this is our most popular product we have ever offered.