Lessons from a Sex Therapist on Connection, Communication and Business with Xander and Vanessa Marin

We put so much pressure on the desire for it, the hunger, and the hunger. And most of us are not paying any attention to the actual experience itself. So what's the point of feeling wildly horny and wildly turned on if the experience that you're going to have is really mediocre and not enjoyable? And there's actually this huge connection between our enjoyment of sex and our desire for it.

Welcome, everybody, to the Chris Harder show, where we are making you unapologetic about your pursuit of success. Success knowing that when good people like you make good money, they can then do great things. My name is Chris Harder, and several times per week, I will bring you epic guests, solo episodes, and every single tool trick and skill set you need to grow your business, grow your money mindset, and to grow your wealth to levels that you have never reached before. I've ended up in a unique place in life where I've got the experience, the connections, and all the secrets that it takes to be successful. And I'm lifting the curtain to reveal it all to you in an effort to help put you in a position of abundance so great that you can then be as generous as possible. So let's lock arms and let's get started. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Chris Harder Show. I am really excited to bring you this episode today because I get to do a joint interview with my amazing wife, Lori Harder. And we are interviewing two friends and clients of ours, Xander and Vanessa Marin. Now, you probably already know who they are because they are social media famous because they make such a big impact in so many people's lives. Vanessa is actually a certified sex therapist, and Xander likes to joke he's just a regular guy who got brought along for the ride and helping other people navigate their intimacy in their relationship. So we're going to talk about everything, such as what do you do when things feel stalled? We're going to talk about how to have the tough conversations, and we're also going to talk a lot about business and growing a business on social media, because what they do, they can't really run ads to, so they've had to learn how to absolutely master podcasting and absolutely master social media. And there's so much you can learn from the way that they've grown their business to millions and millions and millions of millions of dollars. I mean, they are absolutely incredible. And by the way, they are also members of our elite entrepreneur mastermind, the one that Lori and I run. For anyone that has a business over $500,000. Now, what's really Cool is they're a great example of the diversity and business types that we have in there. They're going to be able to help you with your social media, help you with your podcast, help you get your message out because they're so dang good at it. And that's what we facilitate in that Mastermind is all these lift the curtain and share your secret idea exchanges. So I can't wait to see who else joins them and everybody else who's so talented in the 2025 Elite Entrepreneur Mastermind. And listen, if you want the one on one kickoff strategy session with me, if you want the monthly calls with the group where they problem solve what's going on in your business, if you want the two retreats, three and a half day retreats, one in March in person, one in October in person with this incredible group of high performers. And if you want unlimited text access to me Monday through Friday, when you have real time questions in your business, then you got to check out the elite level Mastermind. It's why this one is probably. I'm just going to say it. I know it sounds weird for me to say it about our own thing. It's probably why this is the most effective mastermind on the market today. I really feel confident saying that because we leave no member behind. So we're going into our ninth year of doing this. If you want to join it, you have to be making over $500,000. Here's what you do. Hit pause right now and go to Chrisharder me Mastermind and fill out the application so we can jump on Zoom and have a conversation about it again. Literally right now. Hit pause and come back to this episode. Hit pause and go to Chrishard Me Mastermind. Fill out the application really quick. We'll jump on Zoom. We'll see if it's a perfect fit. I'll tell you it's not a perfect fit. Don't worry. And then we will be able to work on your business together along with everybody else who's in that Mastermind. Okay, guys, if you are in relationship, if you want to be in relationship, if there's anything in the world that has to do with navigating all the difficult parts and the most fun parts of the relationship, this episode is for you. All right? We are sitting here with our friends Xander and Vanessa Marin and I can't wait to jam out on this because this is like we get to talk about sex and business and so I get to Satisfy My inner 16 year old, which you say I still am Inside, and I get to satisfy my 40 year old business guy on the outside, so. And we're going to drop this on both platforms, which is really exciting.

People are probably like, what are you. Like, what are we all going to talk about today? Because we don't normally do this on our podcast.

I mean, it's the best of two subjects. Okay, so let's get right.

I appreciate you guys for going there because a lot of people won't. I mean, let's be honest, it's still a really taboo topic that's very difficult for most of us to talk about. So I appreciate you both for being willing to go there with us.

We also think there's more overlap than most people think.

Yeah, that's what I'm excited about.

Yeah, you're spot on that there is so much overlap in this. And I think that's what people will end up discovering today. One absolutely has an effect on the other and vice versa. So here's where I wanted to start. Vanessa, you are a sex therapist by trade, right? So it makes sense how you guys ended up in this business. Xander, you're not. You're just like the dude that got roped into this. So without telling your origin story, would you mind just sharing day one of when you went to each other and said, babe, what if we talk about this together? And it turned into this juggernaut business?

Okay, so that was my idea initially. So I'm a psychotherapist. My training was all about, don't talk about yourself. It's all about your client. But what I realized as I started the first few years of my practice is, you know, I feel like sex is different because it's so taboo, because we don't talk about it. I think it's actually really important for me to share with my clients. Like, I've been there too. Because a lot of people assume because I'm a sex therapist, I have a perfect sex life. But I have been through everything. I've really struggled to orgasm. We've had mismatched sex drives, all kinds of stuff. So I started talking about myself more personally. And then I very quickly realized I think we need to talk about our sex life as a couple and to normalize. Like, you can be each other's person, you can be madly in love and still have ups and downs. But Xander needed a little bit of convincing.

I would, too, by the way.

Many years of convincing years.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely did. See, I made that classic mistake of thinking that, like, business entrepreneurship is totally separate from your Sex life. And so I started getting involved with Vanessa's business because it was Vanessa's originally, as she was starting to build out online courses, I was taking some time off from tech, from the corporate thing, because I was feeling burnt out. So I was starting to help build the operational side of her business. And I was like, oh, this is great. I get to do business stuff, but I don't have to really talk about my own sex life, any of the stuff that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. So I was making that classic mistake, thinking that, like, you can have one without the other. But yeah, Vanessa started slowly but surely asking, like, hey, what if we talked about some of our own struggles? What have we talked about some of our learnings? For me, my biggest blockage was I've just seen my wife for the last, you know, for the vast majority of our relationship up until that point. Training, going to school, getting licensed to be a psychotherapist, building up a sex therapy practice, building up an online business. And I'm like, you know, I haven't done any of those things. So, like, why, you know, how is it appropriate for me to be trying to give other people advice on this? Until I started to realize, well, we're actually just everyday people. We are everyday, you know, husband and wife. We're in a relationship just like anybody else. We have our struggles just like anybody else. And so it was cathartic to start talking about that.

And of course, once we started talking about stuff as a couple, that was the point that our business totally exploded. Because I think people really relate to that and it makes them feel like they're not alone.

I know you're gonna have something to say on this, but I just wanted to comment on that really quick. What I think makes you guys so special is that you have those opposite dynamics. You have the trained professional and then you have the everyday guy. And it enrolls everybody when you guys share those opinions. I've listened to some episodes of your shows, obviously, and what I love is the two opposite takes. Sometimes, sometimes there's time take, but it enrolls everybody. It doesn't feel like someone who is preaching from a place of, well, I'm educated about this, so it should be this way. It feels like a real life couple that just happens to have more knowledge than the average couple around it.

Thank you. Yeah. Xander's official title is the Regular Dude Husband.

At this point. I do have a lot of knowledge and skills, so, you know, regular dude plus.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think people want to hear from that Though, Because I think a lot of people are like, my husband's like a regular dude, you know, So I think that that's really important. Why do you think we neglect our sex lives as people who are like, you know, hard drivers wanting to build something together? And even for people who maybe aren't working together, let's just kind of start there.

Well, all couples struggle to prioritize their sex lives. We are not taught. I mean, where have we ever been taught, like, how to create an extraordinary sex life, how to maintain that great connection over a long term? So most couples, even though they won't want to say it, are really struggling in one way or another to like keep that spark alive.

Yeah, our Midwest parents didn't do that.

Yeah, my parents certainly didn't do that. But I think as entrepreneurs, there are some unique dynamics to our kind that make this even more challenging. So a big one is simply that grind culture and hustle culture is so deeply embedded into grind culture. Yeah, we were joking about that in the car. The wrong kind of grind. You know, it's so embedded into the idea of most people's idea of entrepreneurship. We feel like if I really want to build something, I've got to put blinders on, I've got to put my head down, sacrifice everything else.

Got to do it all myself.

Yeah. And just focus on building this thing. And we cut everything else out of our lives. Now, fortunately, there are a lot of people, like you guys included, who are starting to talk about like, hey, we can't sacrifice everything. For entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship, our mental health matters, our self care matters. But again, we get back to that idea of sex being taboo. Like, there really isn't anybody out there talking about, hey, entrepreneurship, you need to focus on your intimate life as well. So it's like that, that last blinder that most of us have on where we're continuing to sacrifice and neglect it in the spirit of going after building this thing that we want.

And then on top of that, you were kind of alluding to this already. Laurie is, you know, entrepreneur. As entrepreneurs, we often fall into kind of two more buckets when it comes to our partner. So it's, you know, we might be an entrepreneur ourselves, but our partner is not. And that can create its own challenges because very often the non entrepreneurial partner just can't quite understand what it is that you're going through on a day to day basis. Kind of at best, at worst, they might even look down on what you do a little bit like, oh, your cute little side hustle. Not really understanding, you know, how much passion you have, what all goes into it. They might not even understand how successful you, you really are. And so that can create kind of some emotional connection, challenges, just challenges feeling seen or heard. Then on the flip side, maybe you're both entrepreneurs, you're both grinding double the grind and not the right kind of double grind, unfortunately. And, you know, with that, it's like, okay, now not only do you have to get on board with wanting to invest more in your sex life in your relationship, you also got to get your partner on board and you got to get those grinds kind of aligned.

Yeah. And so when you think energy wise, schedule wise, desire wise, it's almost impossible to get those to line up. And that's kind of what you guys are helping people have conversations around and attempt to fix how bad is it? If you had to quantify it today? In today's culture, you know, people having sex or not having sex compared to what it was in the past, try and paint a picture of how bad it is so that people can feel normalized. Because you said something five minutes ago, you said, we think everybody else has these great sex lives, and we think maybe we're the only ones that put it on the back burner. But it sounds like damn near everybody is.

Yeah, I mean, we get the really unique perspective of hearing the raw and honest truth from people in our community. People will reach out to us and say, you know, I don't tell my friends this, or I tell my friends everything's great. We're having it two times a week. It's super passionate and exciting, but in reality, we haven't had it in months or I can't remember the last time we're having it. So we're. People overall are definitely having a lot more sex than we have in the past. And especially the younger generations are having way less sex than any generation for like many generations beforehand. So people are just not having very much sex. And the sex that they are having doesn't feel very enjoyable. It feels disconnected. In male, female relationships. Most women will say, like, it feels like it's all about him. Like it's not ends when he's done. I know Chris is like, mind blown over here. You know, a lot of women will tell us, yeah, it's like the same old thing over and over again. When he's done, we're done. There's not really anything in it for me. So it feels a lot of times couples will say, like, we'll finish sex feeling even less connected than we did going into it, which is just a horrible feeling to have.

What's working against it the most right now in society?

Time and stress. Yeah. People feel like there's just not the time in the day. Where do we find the time in the day for us to even connect with each other? And the stress is really decreasing our libidos. Like, I just, I'm so overwhelmed. I have so much on my plate. It feels like there's no mental space for me to even think about. So sex. Although I will say I do think that we over prioritize libido. And we can get into that if you guys want to, but I don't think libido is as important as most of us think it is.

Interesting.

Tell me. I mean, for. For so many women. For men it's different. It's like they can just be like, okay now. And for women, if we're really stressed out or we have so much on our plate or it is. It takes so long to get into a different mode. I feel like our, you know, commute after work, whatever that looks like, I feel like it can be a little bit longer. Is that true or not? Like, what does that look like trying to get out of?

Yeah, generally that is true. And that boils down to different desire types. So there are two different desire types. Most people don't know about this, and it's really important information for people to know. So they boil down to where we feel desire first. So there are two places we can feel it in our heads mentally. The idea of sex sounds good. Maybe it pops into your head randomly and you're like, where's my partner? We can also feel arousal in our bodies, like the physiological signs of starting to get ready for sex, getting erections, getting wet, that kind of stuff. And so the two types boil down to where we feel at first. So there's spontaneous, which is where we feel it mentally first. Then the physical arousal follows. And this is most often men who fall into this type. And this is also what we see on TV and in the movies. You're just kind of like going about your day and all of a sudden like, oh, sex sounds really good right now. Like, I want to have it right now.

But not all men, which. That can create its own issues.

But the vast majority of men tend to fall into that type. Now the second type is what most people don't even realize exists, which is responsive desire. And that's when we have to feel arousal in our bodies first. And then our brains catch up afterwards and start to say, huh, this is feeling enjoyable, this is feeling fun. I want to keep going. So a classic sign that you have responsive desires. If you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex and you catch yourself thinking, this is really fun. Why don't I ever seem to want this? So the problem is that most of us are expecting to feel that desire in our heads. The random thought pops out of nowhere, oh, I'm so turned on right now. But for most women, that's not how desire works for us. We have to be turned on in our bodies first. We have to have some sort of physical contact before the idea of sex is going to sound good. So if you find the average woman and you just catch her in a random moment and say, hey, are you turned on right now? Do you want to have sex right now? She's going to say no because she hasn't had anything happening to her body yet.

She hasn't gone to Brookstone first with the massagers.

Like, is it just me or. Exactly. But a lot of it, because we don't know that this kind of desire exists. So many women will label themselves as low desire or even no desire because they're waiting for that mental thought to kick in. But that's just not how desire works for us. So.

So let's take this a step further. For women and for men, what are some things we can do to get a little bit more into it? So, you know, you mentioned how busy we are. We just slammed down the laptop. We're stressed out from our day. The last thing you feel like doing is making the effort to get into something like that. How can you start to step into it?

So the best way to bridge these two desire types is non sexual touch. And I think this is a really interesting thought exercise for people listening. Like, try to think about when was the last time my partner and I touched each other just for the sake of touching each other. This wasn't touched during sex. It wasn't a touch, like as a initiation, as a lead up to sex. The sad reality is most common couples in long term relationships don't really touch each other that much throughout the day. And we've actually become kind of hyper attuned or hypersensitive to touch. Like maybe Xander might come in and he's trying to give me a little lingering touch on my shoulder and I start thinking, oh, he wants sex. And I'm not in the mood for sex right now. So I might feel myself like even start to recoil. I might Pull away. Yeah. And you can feel that, right? Like, you can feel that. It feels really. Yeah, like, oh, shoot, she's pulling away from me. Um, so we've made that association that we only touch each other when we're having sex or about to have sex. We need to break that connection and have more physical touch throughout the day so that it also gives the responsive person something to, like, feel connected to something to get their body going.

I think the second really big thing which you kind of touched on is that in a relationship, or one person is spontaneous and one person is responsive, or even if both people are responsive, do you want to have sex? Is always the wrong question because, like, Vanessa just, you know, showed us, for someone that's responsive, do you want to have sex right now? Unless you're in Brookstone or. Or whatever, like, the answer is going to be no. So unless you just want the answer to always be no, then you gotta start asking different questions. So we like to try to encourage people to think about it. Instead of, do you want. It's more of, are you open to the idea of this? Whether that's to start now or to start later, but are you open to the idea of having sex? Are you open to feeling turned on? And then you can start thinking about, okay, so what are some activities that we could start to do to kind of get the engine going rather than, like, let's jump right now in this very moment to, you know, the main event?

Yeah. Just changing that one word makes such a big difference, because if somebody asks you, do you want to have sex, especially for us women, for me, it often feels like a pop quiz. Like, oh, oh, wait, you were thinking about that. Like, I wasn't thinking about that right in this moment, and I already feel like I'm behind or I've, Like, I've failed the quiz somehow. But if he just changes that one word, are you open to it? I'm like, oh, I don't have to be, you know, wildly horny and just full of desire right now. Like, I just have to be open. Open to the possibility of connecting with him, open to spending some time with him and seeing where it goes. It just lowers the bar instantly. With one word.

I've learned two things. One, I think we're really good touchers throughout the day.

Good.

I think the one area we absolutely excel is. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think we're good cuddlers, touchers. Like, I think we're pretty physical. And I think that probably.

Yeah, it's very Rare. And it's really good.

There's like, we'll wind down to a TV show, like. Like one episode of something at the end of the night before we go to bed or something like that. And I'll always be like, they put the phones down and come and, like, literally cuddle in my arms for the. The thing instead of sitting there side by side or something.

I was not always like that, though.

You did that?

Yeah.

You.

Oh, did he train you to be a cuddler? Xander had to train me to be a cuddler.

Cuddler. Lynn. He would tell me it was important.

Like, yeah.

Once we started doing more personal development and I learned his love language and I was like, oh, he's, you know, physical touch. And I'm just like, yeah, no, I.

Feel exactly the same way.

And words of affirmation, like, sit over there and tell me how amazing I am.

Same.

You'll be ready over there. Just talk to me. But yeah, it's like, it does so many great things. Like, it helps him see that, like, that physical contact with you is important. So especially somebody who has a more spontaneous desire, they still are able to get some contact. But also it really builds trust on Lori's end too, because she sees you're trying to touch her just to connect with her. You're not touching her because you want something from her. Like, it's a genuine desire for connection with her. And so that really get how that.

Takes the pressure away. Because it's not like. I love the pop quiz analogy. It's not, oh, shit, should I be ready right now or not? Touch doesn't have to signify, I want something from you.

Yeah.

Which takes the guard down.

Yeah.

And I think one of the biggest challenges to being intimate is having your guard up when that may not have been the intention.

Exactly, exactly. And it's like, touch for each other too. Like, we're. It's so interesting how hyper attuned we can be to touch. Like, Xander can touch me and I can know in that moment, like, he's. He's touching my body, but it's for him versus times where I can really feel that, like, he's doing that for me to, like, make me feel good, to soothe me, to relax me. And a lot of women tell us, like, I feel like my partner, the only touch they're giving me is because they want something from me. And that it feels really hard to trust your partner when that dynamic comes up.

Tell me about the libido thing you were talking about.

Yeah. So. Because of these different types of desire. Like, that's why, you know, this idea of, like, are you turned on right now? I. You know, we really need to, like, rethink that. But I also think Susanna and I both love food. We make a lot of food. Comparisons do. And I think there are a lot of, like, interesting overlaps between sex and desire and food. So, like, think about the last time that you guys had a really great meal. Okay. And if I ask you to describe that meal, you're gonna tell me maybe about the atmosphere. I know you guys love having, like, dinners on the water. Feel like, I've seen a lot of waterfronts. The presentation of the food. You're gonna tell me what you ate, what it tasted like, what the flavors were. Like, you're not gonna tell me, oh, it was so good. We were both starving beforehand, right? Like, the hunger isn't the one and only thing. We're more focused on the experience.

Often, if we're too hungry, it actually ruins the experience. It's less enjoyable. Maybe you eat too many.

Yeah. You won't shut down.

Or, like, you eat too much of the appetite, you know, whatever.

Bread.

Yeah. Yeah, the bread. The bread does you in. Right?

But most of us are thinking about sex in the exact opposite way. We put some so much pressure on the desire for it.

The hunger.

And the hunger. And most of us are not paying any attention to the actual experience itself. So what's the point of feeling wildly horny and wildly turned on if the experience that you're going to have is really mediocre and not enjoyable? And there's actually this huge connection between our enjoyment of sex and our desire for it. Like, if you're not enjoying the sex that you're having, why would you crave it? That makes zero sense to crave it. So if we want to feel more desire, like, we have to focus more on the experience. But ultimately, like, the experience itself matters more than our desire for it.

Your analogies are so freaking good, by the way. Like, no, I'm serious. It makes things make sense.

It's like Ponderosa sex or Ritz Carlton sex.

I haven't compared it to a mushy broccoli. Like, do you ever wake up in the morning, like, creepy, craving a bowl of steamed, mushy broccoli? Like, I know you had to do a lot of fitness competitions. You probably ate a lot of steamed vegetables, right?

Chicken in a bag.

That whole experience, pretty bad.

It was bad.

You never craved that. Right? But. And you didn't make, like, judge yourself. What's wrong with me that I'm never craving mushy broccoli, but a lot of us are having mushy broccoli sex and wondering, like, what's wrong with me that I'm not craving it. I'm not desiring it so much.

Sandra, I'm so sorry to hear about your. Your mushy broccoli problem.

I think they make pills for that.

We should get a sponsor for the show to fix your mushy broccoli.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure there's any mushy broccoli brands out there, but if there are, you know, you can DM us on Instagram.

Maybe if we added cheese. So tell me about. How do people start opening up this conversation to say. And I think for so many women, it's like, they're the ones who are experiencing the mushy broccoli, and the other ones typically are just like, great, we're. We're good. Maybe the partner. Husband is. Is fine with whatever they're having.

I'll eat anything.

So how does the woman open that conversation up that she's not happy or satisfied to someone who doesn't know there's a problem?

This is a great question, and it really illustrates one of the classic mistakes that so many of us make when we start talking about our sex life. So everybody's heard the advice, like, we need to talk about sex. You know, it's. It's nothing new, but most of us wait until something is really bad or something's wrong or there's a complaint to talk about sex, which is going to feel way scarier to bring up with your partner, way more likely to get your partner defensive, and way more likely to lead to some sort of conflict or argument that only leaves you feeling, oh, my God, I don't ever want to talk about sex again. So, like, obviously, if I go to Xander and I'm like, hey, just want to let you know, I listen to this podcast, and I'm pretty sure we're having mushy broccoli sex. And I really need you to get better. Like, obviously, that's gonna hurt his feelings. He's gonna get super defensive and not ideal. Yeah, that's nothing. And also, like, what is he gonna do with that? He doesn't know. Okay, mushy broccoli. But I don't know what to do to, like, make it better.

Yeah.

What food should I be going to? Or if not, broccoli.

Breadstick.

Solid breadstick.

So instead, what we encourage couples to do is, you have to build a foundation of communication around sex. And we want you to do that talking about positive experiences first. So build up some foundation, some trust, some security, and then we can get going into the trickier stuff later. So a very practical thing people can do is like, think of one of your favorite sexual memories with your partner and your homework assignment after you listen to this podcast is to share that with them today. So just randomly, like, hey, babe, you know what I was thinking about the other day? This memory just popped into my mind. You could tell me you had a dream about it. Oh, I had this dream about our honeymoon that night that we were in Mexico and we stayed in the hotel room all night. Just share it and then just leave it there like, yep, that's all just a fun little memory to have pop into my head. Like, just that one thing can start building this foundation of, oh, we can talk about sex and it can be a fun thing and excitement, exciting thing. Not just, we're having problems and we need to fix it right away.

And then the neck. The next step after that is you can start focusing on the positive elements of the things that you might want more of. Because I think you know, to your original question, Laurie, a lot of people are thinking, okay, well, if I'm not enjoying the sex that we're having, I have to say the sex we're having is bad and you got to do something else. But instead you can accomplish the same thing without hurting any feelings or creating any weird, like, open ended pressure of like, okay, well, I gotta do something else. But what do I do by instead saying, oh, when you know, you can identify. Okay, I'd like us to move slower. I'd like you to spend more time on me and think and instead say, oh, when you really take your time and go slow with me, that's so exciting. I love that so much. Like, let's do that, you know, let's do a little bit more of that tonight. So identify the positive things that you like. Compliment your partner. Oh, yeah, when you do this, it's so hot. You can even blame it on a dream. I had a dream last night that, you know, you were going so slow on me or, you know, whatever the activity is, like, oh, you were doing this and blah, blah, blah, and it was so hot. And use that as a way to request it rather than, everything we're doing is wrong, we gotta stop doing that.

Yeah. Rather than criticizing and saying what you don't want or what you don't like, ask for more of what you do. Like, and you do want. And yeah, just that rephrasing, like saying, you know, you're always going so fast. You're just rushing to intercourse. Like, that feels terrible. But like Xander said in that example of, like, you know, what's so hot is when you go so slow on me and you're just getting me to the point where I'm begging you for more. It's like, that sounds sexy for your partner to hear instead of a penalty. Yeah. And it feels like, you know, it's telling them what you want them to do. It's giving them like the key so they feel really excited, excited to do that rather than chastise or criticized.

And then after you do that. Yeah. Continue to validate and give praise. Like, oh my God, that was, that was so good. And, and what you can even say is because I think a lot of people are worried, okay, well, he'll do that one time and then it'll go back to the way it was before. So what you can do is say, man, that was so good. I'm. I'm starting to realize how much better that is for me, how much I really enjoy that. And so use that as a way to start asking for it more. It's, it's like, oh my God, that was so incredible. I want even more of that. And like, wow, like, that makes me want even more sex. Isn't that exciting? Like, that can be such a, you know, that can be such a great way to, you know, get him to kind of understand, like, oh, this is more of a long term change that we need to make.

I love these because it makes it easy to talk about. But the thing that's still difficult is bringing it up for the very first time if it's a great big gap in your relationship. Right. So while the advice of, hey, blame it on a dream, hey, keep it positive, is phenomenal advice, it could still be very scary for people who aren't bringing it up in ages to even bridge that gap in the beginning because we work together in a business capacity and I get to kind of see some of the ways that you work with people. One of the things I love the most is the challenges that you guys throw out there because it allows a couple to say, hey, in a positive way. Like you're saying, I want to get even better at this. And this couple has this really cool, like, seven day thing, this five day thing, this 14 day thing. What if we tried it together? And you, instead of making it awkward, bringing it up out of the blue, you get to blame it on, like this cool challenge that this couple is doing.

Yeah.

Would you, would you share one?

Yeah. We really design our guides and our products to be something that's like, easy to bring up with your partner and bring it up in a really fun and playful way. So we don't have any guides that are like, you suck at blow jobs. Here's how to get. So we, we really want them to feel like fun and playful and like it's, you know, these are next level techniques, which I think also appeals to entrepreneurs a little bit too. Cause we're always like, yeah, I want to know what is the next level? The elite level. So, yeah, we have a really great challenge, a seven day challenge that we're calling best week ever for couples, where we.

Best title ever, by the way.

Yeah, we had a lot of fun with that one where it's really our approach to intimacy, like super practical things that you can do on a daily basis. So every day for seven days, you get a really bite sized activity that you can do together that's going to build intimacy, more emotional intimacy, more physical intimacy, help you get to know each other better, have a lot more fun with each other too. And so we decided we would give that away to anybody who's listening. We usually sell it on our website, but we're going to set up a special little page. I think we'll do vmtherapy.com harder because we'll have it on both of your.

Yeah.

It'S pretty perfect. Thank you, guys.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're welcome.

So we'll do vmtherapy.com harder so anybody can just go and, and get it for free there and check it out.

And that's V is in Victor. So V M Therapy. Yeah, my initials.com/juster. And that'll give them the free version of that that they normally have to pay for. Yeah, that's freaking awesome. Thanks, guys.

Yeah. We have a strong suspicion that at the end of that week that both partners are going to be feeling a lot more excited about just putting a little more effort, a little more time, and a little more value on intimacy, whether that's physical or emotional.

And I want to go back to the positive reinforcement. The fact that you called it best week ever.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, it makes it easy to bring up. It doesn't feel punitive. It feels like, hey, I want to have our best week ever without having to say, hey, we're having no weeks ever.

And it also, I think, stirs up a little bit of Curiosity too. Like, do you think we've already had our best week ever or. Yeah, you think we could have an even better week? Yeah, it's like a little. Again, it appeals to the entrepreneurs. Let's fire ourselves up and see what we can do.

You keep mentioning entrepreneurs and I want to talk about the business of teaching sexuality and intimacy to couples because it's not a traditional business like other people. It's not glossy where you get to sell a skin routine. You can drink. Right. It's not business training that's easy to talk about. And you can run ads. You guys have a lot of restrictions that people don't realize in terms of you're restricted in how you reach your audience. And it kind of sucks because this is something incredibly important. This is mental health and physical health that you should be able to reach a large audience, but you can't use ads. You can't use things that other people can use. So talk to us about some of the restrictions that you have and ways that you've worked around them. Because one thing you guys have done so well is you have not let that stop you. You've built a massive podcast, a massive social media following, a massive email list, and you're incredibly successful, like with like a stress on incredibly. So you haven't let it stop you. What are some creative ways of marketing that you've been able to. To get?

Yeah, it has been such a challenge for us not being able to do ads. Also on Instagram, we have to censor our content. We can't even write out sex. It has to be sec as we are constantly getting our account frozen for content violations.

We just got out of Instagram jail, I think on Saturday.

Yeah, we just got it, we got.

In it, we got out of it.

We were in it for many months over the summer. Like our accountant grow devastated. And even though we were pulling down all the content that they requested. And it's very random too, certain things will go and others won't. And it's also very frustrating when we see like other accounts that are like porn essentially. On Instagram, we're doing education for couples in long term relationships. What is going on?

Yeah, Instagram groups us in with like adult escort services, basically.

That's crazy. Yeah.

From a policy perspective, that's crazy.

Okay, so what have you done to work around it?

So what we've really tried to focus on is building community. Like, we, we cannot control, like trying to bring as many new people as possible in. So let's focus on really taking care of and nurturing the people that are in our community. So trying to deliver so much value, really trying to open conversations with our community as well. So we're constantly posting question boxes. Hey, what questions do you have about this? Polls so people don't feel alone. Hey, is anybody else going through this? Let us know. We'll post a question one of our community members ask. You know, we'll post it anonymously and ask people, hey, what do you think about this? What advice would you give? So we're really trying to facilitate conversations and also make people feel like they're part of our movement, too. Like, we'll share. I shared on Instagram, like, hey, we're back in jail. This is really frustrating. Can you share our account with your friends? Can you, you know, tell somebody about our account? Because we can't get out other ways. So it makes people feel like, hey, I'm a part of something, and I, you know, I am a part of trying to dismantle the shame and embarrassment, the taboo around sex. It feels like bigger than themselves, which in an interesting way, I think, also contributes to their own personal healing, too.

Another thing that we did that we have done really successfully to grow that really anybody can do. But we kind of keyed in on this because we couldn't run ads and weren't growing organically in the way that other people might is we started reaching out to a lot of other people and asking if they would want us to do a story takeover for them. So we were reaching out to other people in the health space, you know, like workout space, or people in the parenting mom space, because there's a lot of overlap. And, you know, people, you know, in who follow, you know, mom influencers or workout influencers also have questions about sex drive and intimacy and relationships. And so we were like, hey, you know, like, you could put up a question box. You know, we'll choose like, six to eight, and we'll send you videos. And, you know, so it's like a really nice exchange. So that can be a really great way to. To grow and provide value and build and, you know, make new connections with people. I feel like that's been such a great way for us to get to know other people in the kind of related space. And it's just like everybody is winning by doing that.

These are two brilliant marketing ideas. I hope people really caught them. You know, the. The. What you were saying is story takeovers so that you can be exposed to other people's audiences. And what you said was asking for help. See inside People want to play the hero. And instead of saying, you know, share this contest for just the sake of sharing it, when you're like, hey, we need some help, we've hit a wall, then people will want to come to your rescue and play that hero. And I would imagine you get 10 times the shares and 10 times the, the publicity when you're asking for vulnerable help as opposed to when it's just like, hey, share this contest kind of a thing. Yeah, two great ideas. What's. You guys are so good at marketing. Share one more because most of our audience is entrepreneurs, Share one more thing that's really worked for you over the years to, to sell as many programs as you have.

We've also created a lot of free guides. For us, it's baked into our company values that we want to give away the majority of our content for free. So getting really creative and, you know, again, asking our community, like, what are you really struggling with? What's a bite sized, you know, way that we can help address this? So lead magnets and those have been great promoting on social, especially using ManyChat. Those have been a huge email list generator for us while also being, you know, really being able to provide value to our community. So that's been one.

I want to give just one kind of mindset thing. I feel like, you know, I don't, I don't want to speak for you. I know for me this was the biggest turning point was a number of years ago, maybe like four or five years ago when we were, before we had really grown on social and we were kind of, you know, hovering as like, we were successful is just the two of us, but we didn't really have the ability to grow a team or grow our business much bigger. Personally, I was so focused on all the stuff that we couldn't do. And honestly, I was getting resentful, like, oh, like we can't do ads. Look at all these other people that can do ads and can, you know, build these funnels or like, you know, the courses we sell are not about like making money. So I can't talk about like, oh, if you buy this, you're going to get this kind of return. So I was so focused on, you know, listening to all the advice and then keying in on, I can't do that, can't do that. Oh, woe is me. And it wasn't until eventually it was like, okay, I just got to accept we cannot do certain things. Set that aside. What can we do? So just shifting from screw what you can't do. Yeah, it doesn't do you any good to focus on that. Like just literally make a list. What are the things that I can do? What are the things that are in my control? And then let's just shift all our resources over to there.

That is phenomenal advice because we all, I think naturally as humans, it's easy to focus on how we are being the victim. Instead of seeing what you can do and we start focusing on what you can do, then you see more and more and more, Wait, I can do this, I can do that, I can. It's just being solution minded.

Oh yeah. Or, or at the very least, like our, our brains are built to identify what is wrong. Like that's a survival mechanism. And so it's so easy to look around a room and point out like, oh, here are 10 things that are wrong. You're never going to be like, oh, that wall is in the right place. That, oh, and that window is closed. It's doing the job. You know, like, we don't think about all the things that are right. And it can be such a mindset shift to just be like, okay, what are, you know, okay, there's maybe two things that are wrong, but there's probably 20 things that are right. And what if I focus on that? You know, I'm going to be so much happier and I'm also going to be more like solution minded because I can be like, oh, good. Of these things that are right. What are, what are these things? What are the things that are working for me? And okay, let me focus on those.

It's almost like a gratitude practice. Right? But for business, it's focusing, hey, I have this, I have this, I have this. And taking inventory of what you have instead of just wishing that you could have what somebody else has or what you don't have in the moment.

I love that you guys have talked about how much like the intersection of what the work that you do overlaps into entrepreneurship and business. Tell me about all the things you found.

Yeah, I mean, it might seem on the surface that there isn't like that much of a language and like sex and entrepreneurship. But we think that when you really like, take a look at it, there are a lot of surprising overlaps. So you know, with, with female entrepreneurs, I think a lot about, you know, so much of my work has been around helping women experience more pleasure and more orgasms. With entrepreneurship, we're so focused on again, on the hustle of it, on doing all the things, getting all the to do lists checked.

Off.

And we often don't think about the receiving aspect of it, which is such a central aspect to sex as well. Like, can I allow myself to receive the people that are coming into my community? The success that I'm getting, the accolades that I'm receiving. So really like, allowing that in versus just always so focused on the output can be a big one. And I also think a lot about vulnerability. So, you know, one of the signs, one of the hallmarks of truly successful entrepreneurs entrepreneurship is being able to connect with your community in an authentic and vulnerable and intimate way. And yet so many of us are struggling to connect intimately and authentically and vulnerably with the person that's supposed to matter the most to us in this world. So I think it's our relationships can offer us this really great practice for, you know, creating that intimacy, like creating that connection so that we can actually truly connect with other people as well.

I want to actually take that and extend it a step further with this question. And I'm going to use us as an analogy. We teach a lot of business, have a lot of business programs. So business is cyclical. When our businesses are up against a wall or when they're not doing well, it can feel. What's the word I'm looking for? Inauthentic. To be selling business advice or business coaching when one of your businesses is taking a crap at the moment. Right. Do you guys feel that pressure that your sex life has to be great and on all the time, or all of a sudden it's not authentic to be teaching this subject matter to other people?

No, because I don't think people are looking for perfection. People are looking.

Again, that's great.

People are not looking for perfection. They're looking to kill, connect with other human beings. And if we were to sit on Instagram and talk every day about, like, another perfect night of incredible sex last night, it just 100 days in a row. I'm annoyed by myself even just hearing that. Right. It would get so obnoxious and like, what? Why would I stick around? Why? What would there be to learn? Like, people connect with us when we are going through something human, when they can say, oh, me too, too, I've been there too. And that's the same in business and in relationships. So, yeah, it's. It's those moments when we say, hey, we're in a little bit of a dry spell again. Life has gotten so busy. We have been neglecting each other. We got really grumpy with each other. Actually, the times that we Share, like, the ridiculous bites that we've gotten into. Like, we had a brawl over shrimp, like, years ago, and people will still reference that, like, oh, the shrimp fight, right?

We have a chicken nugget. We have a chicken nugget.

So good. So I think, yeah, those are the moments that people really connect with you. And I mean, ultimately, like, that's what I want to share, too. Like, I want to share my humanness. I want to share my vulnerability. My life is not perfect, and I don't want to pretend that it is. And I don't think we have to do that even with our businesses either. It's, you know, I can have. I can have information, I can have knowledge, I can have tools. And also, I can share with you, like, here's what you do in those moments when it's not going the way it seems like it should be going, going.

And I think the reality is, is that talking about it, being open about what's going on helps us get into, like, acceptance with what is happening. And also, like, when we're feeling tough, emotional things, it's actually allowing yourself to feel it. Talking through it is what gets you through it faster. Is when we shut down and we hold it all inside. Or, like, you know, for. In the example you gave for us, like, if we're talking about, you know, how to have a great relationship and sex life, and yet we are really struggling in the bedroom and we're, like, not telling anybody about it. We're not talking about it. We're not acknowledging it. Like, yeah, that's going to feel really icky and out of integrity. People are going to feel that, and it's going to drive us even into even more of a dry spell. Right. Like, we're not going to be excited about reconnecting, but it's actually being able to acknowledge it and. And talk about it that we're like, oh, okay, this actually isn't really that bad. Oh, we feel closer just talking about it. We're like, oh, we're on the same team about this. Like, that's the way out of the bad stuff is going through it. It's not like running away from it.

Oh, man. I have two different questions. So I want to start with you know, even, like, this younger generation or people. I mean, I guess really anybody. But I'm really thinking of the younger generation right now, too. Like, what, you know, Instagram and social media and, like, porn and all of these other things has done for the expectation around sex. Do you guys ever have to, like, talk to People around, like, what is the expectation that you even think you're supposed to be at? Or what does that look like?

Absolutely.

Can I put out one more analogy before you answer it? It's like business, too. Everyone watches people on Instagram. They think everybody has a Lamborghini and a mansion now. You know what I mean? Like, it's this weird private helicopter. Yeah, here's what it looks like. But what's the real expectation?

Yeah, I think some of the times that our audience has connected with us the most is when we talk about the reality. Like, sex is so awkward. It's this really funny thing that we do, and there's so many hilarious little moments of it. Like you're falling out of a position or somebody farts or something like that.

Bump heads.

You bump heads. All kinds of stuff happens. But, yeah, like, a lot of people have this movie or porn picture of sex in their heads, where everything just unfolds perfectly moment to moment. It's seamless, and that actually is really stifling. If you imagine trying to have sex like that, where it's like, there's, you know, zero awkwardness, zero weirdness. It's just, you know, got this flow to it the whole time. Like, that's just not how bodies work. And it's really. A lot of. We talk a lot about sexual perfectionism, too, where people, like, want that, you know, moment to moment, perfectness to unfold. And it's just not realistic or fun either. I think for Xander and I, some of the best sex that we have is when we're really playful with each other and we're, like, being silly and not taking ourselves so seriously all the time. So we really try to encourage that for people as well. Like, sex is not going to look perfect. And the. The more we can get used to just, like, laughing at the funny moments, the more fun we're going to have overall.

Yeah, I mean, that's really why we do what we do on Instagram. And that's, like, one of the big reasons we try to, you know, we want people to just follow us. Like, even if you don't want to buy any of our courses or guides, you know, I. I think that you'll have a great time if you do, but even if you don't is literally just being able to see every day. Oh, sex is a normal topic of conversation for these people. You know, we can. We can, you know, watch a reel here and there and without feeling, like, ashamed or. Or, you know, triggered or whatever. Like, it's just a. It's just a really easy way to remind yourself on a daily basis that, oh, like sex doesn't have to be this big, huge built up thing. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's just an everyday part of Life.

I got 2 comments on your social media. Cause I freaking love your social media. One is, it is really funny. Like you nailed it when you said, even if they're not there to buy any courses, just follow it for like the educational entertainment value. And some of my favorite reels that you guys do are when you like make fun of other people's advice on positions and then you literally try it out.

Those are our favorites.

Yeah, like you like, okay, supposedly the such and such position. Here's what we're supposed to do. And then you guys like try and get in. It's a riot. So number one, people should follow it just for like the humor slash education.

Oh, we're at Vanessa and Xander. Yeah, yeah, those are my favorite. Like we die like crying, laughing, trying to film some of those. Like what weird AI Bot like came up with this sex position because it is not physically possible at all.

Yeah, definitely. Either a human did not come up with them or it's just like a bunch of. Or. Yeah. Or like 13 year old boys.

Like people from Cirque. Yeah, like anyone that can move their body, like Circ came up with these things, which is not most of us. The second thing I love about your social media is it can be a tool. So back to the awkwardness of bringing it up to your significant other, somebody, because you have humor in it. Could start by sending a reel or forwarding a post a few times like, oh, I'm following this couple and this is hilarious. That's hilarious. And then that'll lead to maybe going down the rabbit hole and watching some other things and being able to communicate through reels. I know that sounds funny, but I've got a bunch of buddies where if you said, hey, what percentage of your communication is through just funny memes and reels?

Yeah.

Like 75% of our communication is through funny memes and reels. And so people could use yours as a tool to break down the awkwardness of the conversation.

Exactly. Yeah. And it builds that foundation we were talking about earlier where I'm not just talking about sex with you when I have a complaint or a criticism. It's like, hey, look, this position was so hilarious. Oh look, they're talking about the waddle to the bathroom after intercourse. Like, it just creates this lightness and levity around.

Okay. So this one's for my girlfriends who unfortunately, like, I have, like, hard charging girlfriends in my life who they are. Maybe some are getting divorced, maybe some are dating. Maybe some have not ever, like, been married or, like, with a consistent partner. So many of them just feel, like, so freaked out by the thought of entering the dating world and, like, having sex again after being with a partner for 20 years and they're in their 40s or late 30s or whatever. Um, what would you say to them on even how to. Like, how do you even bring those conversations up? Or how do you not fear it? Because they just think the world's so weird now.

Well, I always want to validate people's feelings. Like, it makes sense. It is weird. I don't know what it would be like, you know, if Xander and I have been together going on 17 years. Like, I would be terrified going back out in the dating world and trying to, like, rediscover myself and see how different things are. So I want to validate the feelings first. But then what I would try to do is try to see it as an opportunity to really discover myself, maybe for the first time. You know, so many of us, especially us women, we are socialized to be caretakers and caregivers, to really focus more on our partner's experience than our own. And that really comes up with sex. Where, like I was saying earlier, like, so many women say sex is all about him. There's really nothing in it for me. So can this be an opportunity for you to say, okay, I'm getting out of all these bad, you know, dynamics that I was in. Now I really want to focus on myself. What is it that I want? What is it that I need? What feels good to me? What am I curious about exploring with a partner? So trying to see it as that opportunity. And it's also a great opportunity to start talking about sex from the beginning of a relationship rather than being 10, 15 years in and, like, hey, so we gotta talk about something we've never talked about before. So I'm not saying, like, you know, your first date, you're not asking what's your deepest fantasy? You know, but just from the beginning of a relationship, talking about it in a more positive way and building that foundation early on rather than way down the line.

That's really good. It's actually easier to, in a lot of ways, you know, build it as a foundational building block instead of fixing a problem. And in the home, you know, 15 years into it, I don't know why I thought of this. But when you're talking about, like, hey, I've got all these friends are transitioning into. They're divorced, and they're successful hard chargers, and they're in this weird journey. This could be like their Eat Lay Love journey. You guys should really do. For all of these women that are going in this, you could do an Eat Late Love. Yes.

That's. That's the Netflix show for us.

Marketing genius over here.

Okay, so I feel like I'm calling on all of my passport friends who've shared secrets with me, but it's, like, such great questions. So I'm thinking of when a man or a woman. We won't even go there. But says, like, this person is, like, my best friend. I'm obsessed with them. I want to be with them, but I just don't think that I'm wildly attracted to them. Are you supposed to be wildly attracted to your partner?

This is good.

Oof. I think we put way too much pressure on that initial spark with somebody. Like, everybody wants to feel that, like, crazy chemistry right off the bat. But I think that true sexual chemistry is really something that develops over time. Like, it needs time, it needs trust, it needs nurturing. So obviously, like, you're going to feel from the beginning with, like, yeah, no, I'm not really interested in getting to know you anymore. Like, there's an, you know, there's a cutoff in that way. But I would say, like, give it. If you're feeling like there's a potential with somebody, give it more time to develop rather than all this pressure that it has to be perfect and wild and spicy, like, right from the very beginning.

I think also, you know, we were talking about, like, spontaneous versus responsive sex drive. If you are a responsive sex drive type and you are feeling like you're struggling with attraction or sexual attraction to your partner, maybe remind yourself to kind of take some of that pressure off. Because just like we were saying, like, it's not normal that you would just have a raging high. Like, I'm constantly thinking about sex all the time. You're also probably not thinking. You would therefore not be thinking, oh, I'm so sexually attracted to my partner at every single moment. But instead focus on, okay, how can we have the best sex possible when we are having sex? Then ask yourself in that moment or right afterwards, how do I feel about my sexual attraction to my partner? Because my guess is that you're going to feel a hell of a lot more attracted when you are actually connecting sexually and having really awesome, pleasurable sex. If you're not having great, enjoyable sex that is for you, then of course you're not going to be super sexually attracted to your partner and you're definitely not going to be sexually attracted to them when you are not even thinking about sex sex.

And I also find that for women, in long term relationships, if a woman tells me, like, yeah, I've been attracted to my partner in the past, but like, now there's zero attraction there, often what I find is that that's more about the emotional connection and emotional intimacy than it is like, oh, I just woke up one day and you were hot yesterday, but now you're ugly today. Like, that doesn't really happen. It's more like I don't feel emotionally connected to my partner and so therefore he's not feeling as attractive or appealing. Appealing to me. So, yeah, so I'd really focus on like, what is it that you need to feel emotional connection again? I. In a lot of cases, the, the physical attraction issue really resolves itself.

That makes really good sense because how many times have you met someone and in their first judgment you're like, oh, that's a hot person. And two minutes into talking to them, they're like a wildly unattractive person.

Oh, yeah.

It's more about that chemistry and that connection and the emotional connection than it is the physical makeup of it, even though that's important too. So just to normalize anybody listening right now so that they know anyone can come back from anything, what's the weirdest freaking problem that you have helped somebody through?

Oh, there's. There's so many.

I'm not gonna let you answer this.

I mean, so. Okay, first of all, I gotta say the interesting thing is that most people think that their issue is so weird when it's so normal. Like, we've heard people saying, like, oh, I don't love the way my partner kisses, or like, I want it. I remember one that always sticks out to me is a woman said, I want to kiss my husband more. Is that weird? Like, it always breaks my heart, like, because we don't talk about sex, like, everybody thinks the most mundane thing is so weird to them. So a lot of stuff is very normal. But I will say we also, you know, humans are interesting. We do a lot of weird stuff. Like, we definitely hear all sorts of interesting stories. The most unusual one we heard lately that I cannot stop thinking about was a woman who said that when she and her husband have sex, he listens to podcasts.

What? And apparently always so many questions, like.

Maybe Sexual ones that help him.

We don't. We don't know.

Maybe it's your business podcast.

Yeah. I'm not sure if she knows.

I don't know. Like, yeah, she. It sounded like it was something that had been going on for a long time, but I was like, how did the first time. Like, the first time that Xander would pull out his little, you know, earbuds and put them in, Like, I would be, what are you doing? Like, what is happening?

Maybe it's like he pictures himself as like, maybe it's like a dragon slayer.

Podcast and he's like a hero getting into the. Like, I know, but like, you just play it on the speaker in the bedroom.

You know, let's all be a part of this together.

Oh, my God. Did she elaborate? Does he put in headphones or does.

He play small DM on Instagram? And I was back and ask her now we. We asked all the follow up questions and I'm like, still have not heard back from her. But yeah, I'm like, what is the podcast he's listening to? You know, when did this start happening? But yeah, I mean, I can't. That one was so interesting to me because I'm. She was very, like, concerned about, is it okay for me to be upset about this? Like, yeah, of course it is. Like, sex is supposed to be something that we're doing together, not your partner, you know, having his own experience listening to whatever podcast he's listening. Yeah, that was an interesting one.

That one actually inspired an entire podcast episode that we released a couple weeks ago. It was called Should I Put up with this? And so we asked people, what are all the weird random things that you're putting up with in the bedroom? And you're trying to get our advice on, like, should you say something? Should you not? And one of the other just funny ones was that a woman wrote in and said that her male partner, a hundred percent of the time they have sex, leaves his boxers on and just puts it through the.

Okay, that is so bizarre.

I mean, not judging anybody, but like, interesting.

Could be like religious reasons.

Yeah, never thought about. That's his safety sheet.

Yeah.

We like to find the balance of being able to laugh at all stuff sex, but also, you know, being able to find there's reason.

Yeah. Like, do you believe in ghosts?

Or.

Oh, my God, no, that would be a sheet.

That'd be a sheet.

Yeah.

Yeah, that one's a stretch. Speaking of your podcast, you had an episode last week or the week before called Cheating or Not Cheating. And you Went through all these scenarios.

Yeah.

And it was so awesome and fascinating to hear the different takes on that.

Yeah.

Do you remember any of the scenarios in there that you guys unpacked that you think would be interesting for people?

Yeah. That was a great one to listen to with your partner too, to like, listen to each scenario, pause and talk about it and say, would we consider.

This cheating such a good way to get on the same page?

Yeah. I think a lot of couple, we know the obvious stuff, like, yeah, if you have sex with somebody else, that's cheating on me. But there are so many, like, little gray areas and nuances that are really interesting. One of them was a man had a sex toy that could be controlled via Bluetooth remotely and he could give access to like, anyone in the world, like a stranger. He could give access to his sex toy to use.

Does he wear it?

So she was. Yeah, so she was asking, like, do you think that counts as cheating because he's essentially having sex with another person, but it's a stranger. Yeah. He doesn't know who it is. There's no physical contact, but there is a sexual experience between these two people.

Man, we're behind on technology.

I'm like.

Wow. So there was stuff like that and.

Then there were that cheating or not cheating either.

I said my opinion was that that was cheating because you are having a sexual experience.

Yeah. If it is being controlled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because that's what I mean for that, I feel like that's what the excitement is around is not knowing who's going to like, yeah, turn your pants on.

Yeah. And then another really great one that I think all couples should talk about is somebody like following and liking, like hot girl accounts on Instagram. You know, if it's just like thirst traps, you know, half naked pictures, you're liking them, commenting on them. I think couples will have really varying viewpoints on that. Like, there are definitely some couples who think like, yeah, I don't care, or even that's kind of hot to think about you, like, getting excited by someone else. But I think a lot of, you know, a lot of couples would see that as like, I don't want you, you know, interacting, like giving praise and feedback to somebody who, oh, no, I will judge.

I will look at, like, if it's a girl, I follow and I see guys who I know.

I'm like, hey.

Like, I literally categorize because I just don't think it's. It's so interesting to me that publicly now it's a thing where I know you have a. This family that you talk about, yet you're liking all these things. Like, it's just crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah, I find that one really interesting because I think that there's, you know, when we get in relationships, it's not like we become blind. Like, of course we still see other people. Of course we still notice that person's attractive or, you know, not attractive to me. So I don't think there's anything wrong with being attracted to other people. And it's very normal to get, like, little crushes on people, too. There's nothing wrong with that. But I do think there is something about, like, intentionally seeking out, like, a specific account. Like, I'm gonna follow intention.

Yeah.

I want to. Like, all of her photos. I'm thinking about her.

Her, like, and doing it publicly.

Yeah, publicly too.

I think you guys joked in the episode on that one, it was something like, what's the hope? Like, she's like, oh, thanks for liking my picture, Daddy. Or something like that.

Like, I got really awkward in that episode.

Hilarious.

I was trying to be a sexy Instagram girl.

I've got this.

What are you hoping for?

Yeah, what.

What message are you actually thinking you're gonna get back?

What's the end game of.

Of liking all of that?

Thanks for the, like, Daddy.

I've got this thing where I'm like, you can learn everything you need to know about a person by pulling up their for you page and seeing what's fed to them. I'm telling you, it's like an instant test of who that person actually is. And I love doing that to people and watching them, like, either freak out or be, like, proud of their for you page.

Ours is very weird.

Oh, yeah, no, I'd love to show you my personal one. It's probably going to be surfing and pugs.

Yep, yep, yep.

Ours is a lot of dogs.

Okay, well, listen, start to put a bow on this thing. Obviously, you guys offer so much freaking value out there, and in a way that is digestible and approachable and feels fun and feels safe in a subject that could feel the opposite of all those things. So where should they follow you? Where should they plug in and please, one more time, share the seven day challenge?

Yeah. So please come follow us on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander at Xander with an X. You'll find us acting out all the weird sex positions and making fun of all the awkward stuff about sex. You can find all of our guides and courses@vm therapy.com. it's my initials VM therapy.com. so we have our ultimate foreplay guides. Next level intercourse. The art of initiation. Like lots of really fun, exciting guides that'll just walk you through step by step, exactly what to do.

All the stuff they never taught you in school.

Yeah, maybe they should have.

Yeah.

And then you can go to vm therapy.com harder to get free access to that seven day best week ever challenge for couples.

That is freaking awesome.

Well, we're so grateful for you and thanks for making it just so approachable. Like you guys just I can tell you really work on even just how to approach your answers and how to make it really non judgmental and so I think that feels so great for people.

Thank you so much for having us. It's been a blast.

Yeah, thanks. It was super fun to talk.

Yeah, our pleasure. Thanks for listening. And if you loved this episode and know of someone else who is as successful as they are, generous, please pass them on to me. It would mean the world to me if you help me get this cause and this message out to as many listeners as I can. So please, if you liked what you heard, it goes a long way. If you take 30 seconds and leave me a five star review and share this with your friends, I'll be forever grateful. And until the next episode, cheers to your success.