Maintaining Intimacy After Kids with Vanessa and Xander Marin @vanessaandxander

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Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Welcome to no One Told Us the podcast that tells the truth about parenting and talks about all the stuff you wish you knew before having kids. I'm your host Rachel shepherd, ota and today I'm so excited to be speaking with New York Times best selling authors Vanessa and Xander Marin. She is a sex therapist with 20 years of experience and he is a regular dude and together they wrote Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. Vanessa and Xander are shockingly open, slightly nerdy, and seriously funny, and they're the couple that you're going to be calling your new besties in no time. They share the ups and downs in their own relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours. They're well known on Instagram and they also host their own amazing podcast called Pillow Talks for totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex ed that you wish you'd had and they also have an online platform with lots of different courses and guides relating to all things relationships, sex and more. So guys, thanks so much for being on the pod. We've talked before on like Instagram and doing other things, but this is going to be really fun because we get to talk in a more long form way and you're pro podcasters which is always nice to keep my job easy. So thank you so much for joining today.

Yeah, we're happy to be here. It's always really fun when an IG friend can become a real friend. So we're glad to get to chat.

Yes. And so since the last time we talked, I think the last time we did an Instagram live was when you guys were launching the book and it's turned into such a wild success. So congratulations. I'm so thrilled for you. It is so well deserved. I would love to first start with talking a little bit about the book and how you kind of got the idea for these five conversations and how you kind of navigated writing that and writing it together especially. That's the part that I think is fascinating.

So yeah, the idea of talking about sex is nothing new. You know, when you are up late at night and you're secretly googling all your sex questions in incognito mode. You'll see it at the end of every article like, well, just talk to your partner about this. And we've seen that a million times ourselves and thought, like, what unhelpful advice? Like, how do I say this to my partner? What do I say? When do I say it? What do I I do if they respond in this way? And so we decided that we wanted to take this very generic advice that everybody's heard a million times and turn it into something really practical. And it was also inspired by our own challenges, too. Like, we start the book. You know, the first page is talking about us going to couples therapy early in our relationship and feeling like we had that same journey that so many couples have gone through. Where it started off hot and heavy, things seemed so good. The chemistry was just undeniable. And then you get into the relationship a year or two, and all of a sudden you're not having sex very much, and you're kind of doing the same thing over and over again. And so when we struggled with that, like, we didn't have those tools ourselves either. We didn't know how to talk about it. And even me, like, being in the sex therapy field, training to become a psychotherapist, I didn't have the tools for how to talk about it with my own partner. So it was just so many different pieces came together for us and made us realize we need to write this book. We need to guide people through having conversations about sex. Because how can we have an incredible sex life if we can't even talk about it? If we can't even, like, say these words out loud to our partner? So that's kind of the backstory behind the book. I'll let you talk about what it was like writing it together.

Well, when Vanessa was initially going through the kind of the process of figuring out what was going to go in the book proposal, before I even got involved, I think originally you had, like, 16 or 17 different conversations.

Oh, yeah.

That you thought everybody needed to have. And, you know, once we actually signed with the publishing house and got an editor, the editor was like, hold on a second. Like, nobody wants to do 16 of anything. Like, what? How. How can we cut this down and how can we streamline this into something that is going to feel really doable? And so we did manage to sneak many or most of those 16 conversations into these five larger categories. But as we were going through that process of refining and talking about it, Vanessa had this Idea of what if I. What if Xander came in and kind of did a short section in each chapter where kind of, like, I get to give my take because, you know, I've experienced most of these things myself. What's, you know, what is my perspective as a husband, as a man, as a, you know, as a non. You know, someone that hasn't trained for their entire career to do this. And so it was a really fun opportunity for me to get to just talk about, you know, here are the things that I've observed in my own relationship. Here are things I've observed amongst my friends. Here, you know, here's how I've experienced it. And so it was really fun to get to be involved like that. And fortunately, it was pretty easy for us because, you know, my sections were kind of separate from Vanessa's, but, you know, we still collaborated throughout the whole process.

Well, we had to do a lot of homework in writing the book. It's like, if we're telling people to have these conversations, we need to have these conversations, too. And it was interesting that even certain parts of it, like, little, specific details, there were things that we had never talked about or hadn't talked about in a really long time. Yeah.

Totally forgotten about.

Yeah. We got to have a ton of really amazing conversations, and it brought us closer together. So that really helped us feel like this is definitely a book that any couple can benefit from.

That's so cool. Do you have one particular conversation or section from the book that you feel particularly passionate about or think is, like, the most important? Or do you think that they're all super important, like, you already whittled it down as much as you possibly could. People have to have to take in all of it.

It's hard to pick one conversation that I think is the most powerful out of all of them because they each have their unique strengths and benefits. I will say, though, one conversation that a lot of people didn't expect us to have is conversation. 2. Connection. I think a lot of people think, well, this is a sex book. What are you talking about? Like, emotional connection. That's kind of a separate thing. But I think that's the thing that we. That makes our business so unique and that we do really well is we. We're not talking about sex as just a purely physical act. We're talking about the actual, like, emotional intimacy that goes into it. And what we've discovered over the course of our work is that so many couples are feeling wildly disconnected from each other. Like, we feel like roommates rather than Romantic partners, we feel like ships passing in the night. We feel like we're calendar managers together, but not actual romantic partners. And for so many people, and I will say, like women in particular, it's really hard to get excited about being intimate with your partner or to feel safe to try something new in the bedroom when you're feeling like, this is a stranger crawling into my bed at the end of the night. So being able to break down this conversation and also give people like, you know, I know that the idea of emotional intimacy or emotional connection, it feels like this huge topic, like, how do we even start to rebuild if we're feeling so. So disconnected? But I loved that we were able to break it down into very practical steps to give people, like, we know you're tired, we know you're busy, but here are the little things to do that are going to give you the biggest bang for your buck and actually get you feeling closer to each other again.

And I'd throw in a quick little plug for conversation for pleasure. I think that's such an important one because especially in male, female relationships, there are a lot of misconceptions, misunderstandings about how pleasure really works. And very often it is for women. Yeah, it is. It is both men and women not fully understanding or not understanding much at all how female pleasure works and having this idea that it's really hard or really complicated compared to men's pleasure. And the reality is there's nothing hard or complicated about it. It's just that we. All we have seen portrayed is, you know, sex that prioritizes male pleasure. And there are some very simple and straightforward things to do once you know how the female anatomy really works, that are going to. That's going to make sex feel just as pleasurable for both partners. Because at the end of the day, if you are not enjoying something, why would you be craving it? It's kind of similar to the connection thing. Like, if you don't feel, you know, safe and secure in your attachment, why are you going to want to have sex? You know, even if you are nice and connected, like, why would you be craving sex that is not particularly enjoyable for you? So I think it's so important that we just get all that stuff out there, get everybody on the same page about it. And I think that the connection and the pleasure are two of the quickest pathways to increase desire and more happiness.

And enjoyment, for sure. I think those points are so important, too. And that's why I love your book and I always recommend it to parents because, like, you said there are so many, like, quick little, really actionable, really realistic things that we can do. I mean, most of the people that we're talking to today are parents and especially new parents with really little kids or babies. And Vanessa, you were talking about how hard it can be to have that roommate phase and that, you know, ships passing in the night. And that just hits the nail on the head. When you become a parent, especially for the first time, or you have really young kids with, with high needs, especially high needs of, you know, the mom, in many cases physically too, it can be really hard to kind of keep that connection with your partner because you do turn into roommates. Do you think that there's a piece where parents should be worried about a roommate phase or is it something totally normal that they just need to get through? Do they need to work to get out of it? What do you think about the roommate phase?

I think to some extent it is unavoidable. I think one of the problems that comes up for parents is they're not really given any preparation for how your sex life is going to change once you have a kid. Like the best you get is the six week checkup where maybe your doctor says, like, okay, you probably won't die if you have sex now. Don't even get the start. Say anything about, yeah, like, are you feeling close to each other? Are you exhausted? Are you sleeping? How's your relationship with your body? Like, there's so many dynamics that, that feed into it. So I always like to start with normalizing things because it's so easy for us, and especially us women, to go to a place of feeling like we're broken or something is wrong with us. So if you're a parent, a new parent, and you're feeling like it has just become a herculean task to maintain intimacy with your partner, you are not alone, you are not broken. That is just this season of life. So let's normalize it. Let's not make people feel so guilty and horrible about it. And, and at the same time, let's also not look at it in a black and white way. I think sometimes people think, well, that's just a season, there's nothing we can do, we just have to get through it. And my approach is, can we take some tiny steps where maybe it's not, you know, it's not going to be hot and heavy, you're having all this wild and crazy sex. But like, let's not say we're doing nothing. So I'll give you one very Practical example. I think one of the best things that new parents can do when they're going through a season that feels like it's just about survival is to at the very least acknowledge what's going on. And you can say even something this simple, hey, I know we're going through a really tough season right now, and it's been so much harder for us to be intimate. I just want you to know this is not what I want our relationship to feel like. And I'm really excited for us to get to the other end of this and be able to devote more time and energy to ourselves and each other again. Because what that does is, you know, if you don't say anything, which is the case for most people, like, you get into that season of survival, you're feeling like roommates and shame and embarrassment come up and you don't want to acknowledge it. It's like, oh, I feel so embarrassed. I don't even want to acknowledge that this is happening. But if you don't say anything, that leaves your partner wondering what you really feel. So they might start thinking like, gosh, yeah, it has been a while. Has my partner noticed that it's been a while? Do they care? Are they still attracted to me? Do they still love me? Are they waiting for me to initiate? You know, it turns into this horrible guessing game in your partner's mind. So even just saying something that simple can go a long way towards helping your partner recognize what it is that you want out of intimacy between the two of you.

Yeah, that's a really helpful kind of first step, I think, is acknowledging it, even having like a laugh about it, and just kind of lightening the mood a little bit. Because I think when you tiptoe around and it can make it so much more awkward and then, yeah, what can you do if you are not on the same page? Like, if one partner feels really ready to get back into your intimate life and the other partner is maybe not. And in, in my scenario that I'm thinking about, it's the woman in a hetero relationship or the mom who's just like touched out, completely disinterested in sex, could not want it any less. And the male partner who maybe is really ready for that part of their relationship to come back, how do they meet in the middle?

And this is another area where I think the lack of preparation really comes back to bite us in the end. Like, a lot of men just don't realize how all consuming pregnancy and childbirth and becoming a new parent can be for women. And there for a lot of men, even ones who are very sensitive and, you know, want to be good teammates, there's still this disconnection of like, well, okay, but it's been a couple months. Like, why are things not going back to normal? So I think one rough timeline timeframe that I that can be very helpful for new dads to keep in mind is that most women say it takes them about two years to start feeling more like themselves again. So even just that, like, let's shift it from like this six week timeline to maybe it might be two years until your partner is really feeling connected to herself again. That can shift things. And I'll also say, like, as women, it's important for us to honor, you know, our body and our needs and what we are and are not open to. And at the same time, I think it's also really important not to mock your partner's desire or downplay it or ignore it. So a lot of times, you know, we'll hear from couples will tell us things like, like, a man will say, oh, I tried to initiate with my wife and she just laughed at me and said, like, how could you possibly want to be intimate with me right now? Like, I've got throw up on me and there's poop everywhere. And like, how could you want sex in a time like this? And that just leaves men feeling so ashamed and embarrassed on top of feeling rejected. So we need to be really careful about recognizing, like, it's okay for your partner to miss you, to love you, to want to connect with you.

I think there's also an element of it that, you know, there's more, there's more to it than just like feeling ready. And I think it's easy to fall into that trap, especially as a guy, because it's like, okay, you know, she had the baby. Some time has gone by. I'm feeling ready again. Like, you just feeling that feeling of like, okay, I'm good to go. Like, I want this part of my life back. And I think that having had that experience, it can be easy to be like, okay, well, I feel ready. All I need now is my partner to feel ready. And like, you know, me feeling ready is a me thing. Her feeling ready is a her thing. So that it can create this dynamic of like, okay, well, we're just waiting around for her to feel ready rather than being like, what can I do to support you feeling more ready? What can I do to help move the needle? Because, you know, you, Rachel, you mentioned, like, feeling touched out or being Overloaded. Like, what are things that I can do to help, you know, to help decrease some of these things? Like, how can I support giving you a little bit of alone time after being touched by the kids all day so that you have some time to cool off from that? How can I support you in taking on some of that mental load so you don't feel so overwhelmed? I think that the people that really get into trouble are the ones that are just like, okay, well, I'm waiting. I'm waiting for you. And then it makes it feel like, oh, well, this is a you problem. You gotta solve this problem. And it's not. It's a. It's a joint problem that we can address together.

Yeah. And I'll say, like, one more super practical thing too, is we. One of our mottos is everything counts as sex. So in male, female couples, we tend to get way too focused on intercourse. We, like, really prioritize that. And we hear this a lot from parents. They feel like, like, well, we have to, like, start having intercourse again. And a lot of women will tell us intercourse feels terrifying. I don't know, am I going to be in pain? Is my body, you know, going to feel like things just feel different? Am I going to like what I used to like, Am I going to feel self conscious in certain sex positions? So that's where I think this attitude of everything counts as sex can be so freeing. So we don't have to say it, you know, it's just intercourse is the gold standard. It could be making out like little teenagers again for a few minutes, that counts as sex. Watching your partner while they masturbate, that can count as sex. Oral sex, using your hands, using toys on each other, like it can all count. So when you have more options on the table, the pressure feels lower. And your openness to being intimate again is going to feel a lot higher.

I love that. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. It's that time of year again when you start arranging pumpkins on the stoop, try out a new cranberry sauce recipe, and plan out a tablescape that'll outdo last year's. In other words, it's when you break out all your DIY holiday skills. And now ADT is making it easy to DIY your home security, too. Their systems aren't just simple to set up, they also fit within your budget. So get excited for your next project because your peace of mind just went DIY. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800ADT ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT. The holidays are coming up and it's never been busier. Between back to back school events and shorter days, finding time to cook can be really, really tough. That's why I love Factor because their chef prepared dietitian approved meals make it super easy to stay on track and grab something really easy, nutritious and delicious out of my fridge. No matter how hectic the season gets, how many activities I'm running to with the kids, or how much work I have on my plate, more variety and more meals make it super, super simple to choose a factor meal. So you get to choose from weekly meal options including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. And they get delivered right to your door. They're fresh, never frozen. They honestly taste like you're eating a restaurant meal. If you close your eyes, you would think that you were in like the top restaurant in your town. They are so, so delicious. My husband loves them too, and they're just so, so easy. So you can get the factor deal that I have especially for my listeners. You can eat smart@factor meals.com no one told us 50 off. Use code no one told us 50 off and get 50 off your first box plus free breakfast for a year. That's crazy. That's code. No one told us 50 off@factor meals.com for 50 off your first box plus free Breakfast for an entire year. You'll get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with factor. And this offer is valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. So you guys mentioned something that I think is so important and it reminded me of this kind of like joke or trope or whatever that foreplay is not in the bedroom. Foreplay can be loading the dishwasher for your partner. Foreplay can be taking the kids on a walk so that your wife can take a shower by herself without being, you know, harassed. What are some other things that partners can do for each other to maybe act as foreplay? Like you said, everything counts as sex. So what are some things that we can do to kind of get us in the mood, get us thinking about maybe having sex before, you know, we even get to that point?

Another one of our mottos is foreplay is all day. Yes, living it really is. Like, it's not just most of us. For most of us, foreplay is like 30 seconds of rushed groping before we're moving on to intercourse. But that's such a narrow and unhelpful way of approaching foreplay. Like, foreplay truly is the way that you interact with each other all throughout the day. I think every little interaction is either going to bring you closer to each other or repel you further away from each other. So really trying to think about, like, if I want to be intimate with my partner at the end of the night, how do I need to treat them throughout the day in order for it to feel like we're going to be able to get there? So I think this is a. It's such a personal thing that I think it's a great conversation for partners to have. So I love asking this question, like, if I want to be intimate with you tonight, what are some things that I can do during the day that will help you feel excited about that? So for some people, it might be like, yeah, helping out with the chores. For some people it might be childcare, like taking over, you know, some certain amount of time. It might be giving me some alone time. It might be the two of us having some quality time. So it's not just like we're disconnected all day and now we're trying to have intercourse right away. So ask your partner, ask them to come up with like three or four specific things that would be really beneficial for them.

I love that. How does this, like, actually work? So from a therapist, you know, with a therapist lens, how does it actually work? That kind of lead up and that emotional connection leads to, you know, later wanting to have sex or feeling that intimacy and that emotional fulfillment.

So for a lot of people, it. It just feels like, you know, there's so much disconnection, that the idea of being intimate with somebody, it feels kind of scary, honestly. Like, it just feels like this enormous leap. And even though this is a person that you love, you've spent so much time together, you trust them. You've probably had good experiences with intimacy in the past. Like, when you're feeling that level of disconnection from them, it feels like this enormous leap to go into physical intimacy. So for a lot of people, like, creating that connection, it brings the safety, the sense of safety back, and it also brings desire into it as well. Like when, you know, when I feel connected, it's making me remember, like, oh, here are the things that I love about you. Here's what's so good about the two of us. And, you know, all these great memories that we've had, the funny inside jokes that we create, it just creates that, that desire for even more closeness. But for a lot of people, yeah, starting going from 0 to 60 feels really hard.

Yeah. And I think for people who are, you know, in kind of those early years of parenting, it just is something that happens without us even realizing. And all of a sudden you look at your partner and like, you're like, holy shit. I don't think we've had an actual conversation in two weeks. Or, you know, we haven't been intimate in a couple of months and, and then it just kind of builds and builds and builds and it's hard to get back.

I, I think as women too, we want to feel wanted for who we are. Like, if you're, if you're feeling disconnected from your partner and they're coming in hot and heavy with the initiation, it's very easy for us to write this off as like, well, is this really about me or is this more about you and your needs? And we also like, have a lot of sensitivity that it's very easy for us to feel undesirable and unwanted, you know, so all that can come in. But when we have that emotional connection, it makes sex feel so much more personal. Like, ah, you're wanting to connect with me, you're wanting to be with me, not just you're wanting to have a sexual experience.

For sure. We're going to take one more quick break and when we come back, I would really love to hear about what we should do when we're feeling disconnected and we don't know how to fix it. I don't know about you, but I feel like the holidays should be a time for connection, not chaos. And between baking, gifting, endless gatherings, school plays, no one wants to spend hours of their precious time in the corner crowded grocery aisles. With Thrive Market, you can simplify the season by getting premium healthy groceries for your entire family curated and delivered right to your door so you can skip the store and save your sanity this holiday season. From premium pantry essentials to non alcoholic bubbly and nostalgic yummy snacks, Thrive Market puts holidays on autopilot so we can focus on the moments, not the crazy aisles. I absolutely love how Thrive Market has all the delicious holidays, holiday flavors and snacks that I didn't even know existed. Like special mocha coffee or hot chocolate for the kids. It just makes the holidays feel extra special and you can skip the hassle, plus get amazing deals. I absolutely love Thrive Market. We've been using it for years and I can't recommend it enough. So go to thrivemarket.com hey sleepy baby to get 30 off your first order plus a free sixty dollar gift. That's thrivemarket.com hey sleepy baby.

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Okay, so we're back with Vanessa and Xander. And one thing that I would love to hear your opinion on is therapy, because for so many couples, they probably should have been in therapy a long time ago. And then, you know, things come up and it's life gets busy. And then you add kids to the scenario, and it just feels like you can never find the time or make the time to go to therapy. But you guys have shared recently that you've started back in couples therapy, which I think is so amazing that you're setting that example for people. So can you talk a little bit about how to know when it's time to go to therapy and then, you know, what the benefits could potentially be? Because I think it feels really scary to people.

Yeah, it absolutely does. So if you're interested in more of our story, we have a Pillow Talks podcast episode that we released recently called we're in Therapy. And I actually share, like, I'm a therapist, I believe very deeply in therapy, and yet I was resistant to the idea of us going back to therapy this particular time. So it's a, you know, it's just like a really intimate backstory into what came up for us. But I think, especially if you're somebody who has felt resistant yourself or you have a partner who's been resistant, definitely listen to it because I think it can be really helpful. So when do we know when it's time to go to therapy? I'll say, first of all, I think therapy should be required for all parents.

100%.

It's such a monumental change in your life, and the idea that you should be able to make this enormous change without any sort of resources or support or a container to talk about your feelings is wild.

Yeah. At the very least, it can't hurt. And you would just have someone to be able to vent to about, you know, things that, you know, you don't probably want to vent to your Partner about, like, life is changing and it's probably changing in ways that you weren't anticipating or you weren't prepared for. And of course you're going to have some things, feelings about that.

Yeah. And then the other thing is if you're thinking, I wonder if we should go to therapy, you should go to therapy. You know, on the other side of it, as a therapist, I had a lot of clients who would come to me and saying, you know, we've already thrown out the divorce.

Word.

Somebody's already seen an attorney, there's already papers drawn up. But we're doing this last ditch effort with therapy. And I'll be honest, cases were very rarely successful because it was just, you know, somebody was already, you know, one foot in, one foot out, or honestly two feet out. So it's really difficult even for the most talented of therapists to save a relationship if you're not, you know, fully committed to it or invested in it. So on the other hand, like, we share in that episode. We're in a really good place in our relationship. Like, we're the happiest we've ever been. We're the most connected we've ever felt. And so going to therapy now, despite my initial hesitations, but going to therapy now has been so freaking fun. Like, we actually look forward to it, we're excited about it.

We come out of sessions feeling closer.

Yeah. So it's, you know, when you can go to therapy, when things are in a good place, it's so enjoyable. It just feels like the coolest quality time that you could possibly spend together. And you're learning, you know, new tools, new things about each other, new ways of talking to each other and communicating all the things. So it's just, it's really, really beneficial.

Yeah. And I'll throw in like one, one more sign that maybe it's, it's a good idea to go to couples therapy. This is a great sign that is typically, typically going to come up before things get really contentious. But if you don't do something about it, it's likely that, that, you know, a little bit of contention maybe turns into resentment. And so that is like, if you are finding yourself going in circles on certain conversations and continuing to come back to them and it feeling like either, like we can't resolve it in the moment so we keep coming back to it, or it feeling like we're maybe coming to a bit of a resolution and then you, and then like there's a misunderstanding, you come back to it again and it's like, wait, no, I guess we didn't resolve it. I think that can be a really good sign that it might be good to get an objective third party in there to talk this through, because there's probably something else going on underneath all of that that is causing that misunderstanding. And I think that was kind of. That was kind of the underlying thing going on for us that, you know, kind of the presenting issue that we went in to see this therapist about was just something that we have been, you know, talking about for the last year or so. And it's just kind of like going in circles a bit. Not like in a negative way, but just sort of like, you know, we would talk about something and be like, God, I guess we don't really have like an answer, a solution, a resolution, and we keep revisiting it and keep kind of feeling like, oh, yeah, it doesn't feel like we're. Either of us are ready to just be like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. And so I was like, okay, why don't we talk to somebody else about this?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of us probably have those fights or conversations in our relationship that just keep coming up over and over and over again, and we just don't know how to communicate our way through them. I know that, you know, a lot of I'll just go out, go out on a limb and say, a lot of male partners might be resistant to therapy. So do you feel like therapy might be a good way for partners to kind of reconnect so that they can then go on to have that intimacy that maybe they're craving? And how do you even go about finding a therapist that is going to work for both of you?

Yeah, so we definitely give plenty of tips about, like, you know, feeling resistant to it in that episode. So I think that's a helpful thing for people to listen to. But I think one other thing that can be very helpful is before you start bringing up the idea of therapy, like, try to, like, try to see if you can do some small things for your partner to build up a little bit of goodwill between the two of you. So going back to this idea of connection, what do we do when we're feeling really disconnected? I wanted to give you a couple of very practical things that people can do. We love the 30 second hug and the six second kiss. Research has shown that those two forms of touch actually make a really big difference. It's what gets oxytocin flowing, getting us feeling closer to each Other more trusting, more connected to each other. And I love both of those because you can do them both. And it's still under a minute. So even the busiest couple, like a 30 second hug and a six second kiss. Right. So I think like trying little things like that. And then another one that I always talk about is expressing gratitude and appreciation for each other. So research has shown that gratitude is actually the number one predictor of marital success.

Really?

And you know, we've all heard about gratitude, but there's this kind of like, oh yeah, you're get out your gratitude journal, whatever. We roll our eyes at it a little bit. But. But research has actually shown it's incredibly powerful. So if you are already having this feeling of I want to bring this up with my partner, but I think they're going to be a little resistant, like try some of those little things like that. So you start building up a bit of goodwill between your partner and that might make them feel a bit more open to it.

Yeah. And then I think one other thing, especially if you're kind of pivoting into that conversation of, hey, maybe we should talk to a therapist about this. You know, I think one like you said, a lot of men don't feel comfortable with therapy. A lot of that is probably because they haven't had any personal experience with it. And probably most men feel like they are less prepared than their female counterpart to, to have emotional conversations. And so I think there can be this fear that, oh well, going to therapy is just a proxy for like somebody else is going to tell me why I'm wrong and why I need to do what, what she wants. And that could not be further from the truth. I think what's really interesting, what you find when you go to couples therapy is like the couples therapist's job is to not be on anybody's side other than, than the relationship really. And so like, what either of you have to say is equally valid. And you know, I think that a lot of men would be very supportive. Surprise. Once they get into couples therapy, just how much that couples therapist is going to be willing to listen to them and hear what they're saying and help them, help them express it in a way that their partner is going to understand. So I wanted to say that. But the other piece that I also wanted to encourage couples to do is like, if, if you are wanting to go to couples therapy and you know your partner is resistant for some of the reasons I just explained, another thing that you can do that is super helpful is, is acknowledge your Part in whatever it is that you want to go to therapy for, where it's like, hey, we are struggling with this conversation. And I can totally see some of the ways where, you know, I'm not, you know, where I am part of the problem. Or, you know, oh, I can be, you know, I can be quick to judgment or I can be, you know, I can get my.

Gotten a little snippy with you sometimes.

I've gotten a little snippy with you sometimes so that your partner sees that it's not like a, I think I'm right and I think you're wrong. And we need a therapist to tell you that you're wrong.

We're gonna gang up on you.

I was gonna say, I think that's such good advice because I think most men assume that going to therapy is just gonna be like a complete ambush and a gang up. And. Yeah, that's just not the case. I love that you brought that up.

Definitely not the case.

Therapy, though, can be kind of cost prohibitive and can, you know, take a lot of time. And so what are some things that couples can do if they are not really in a place where they can go to, you know, a weekly therapy session? I know you guys have lots of resources on your page and on your podcast. Where would you kind of recommend people start?

Yeah, so we have a ton of great guides and courses that we've created because we do understand, you know, all the challenges of going in person. You know, I started my practice seeing people one on one in that traditional therapy setting. And yeah, it is very expensive and it does take a lot of time. So I wanted to figure out how can I, you know, I completely support therapy and therapists and I see the value in it. And I wanted to create another option for people who, you know, therapy just wasn't going to be accessible for. So we've created tons of amazing guides and courses that teach all of our sex, sex therapy, you know, techniques and a lot of stuff about emotional connection, all of that. So everything that we have is@vmtherapy.com and you'll find little descriptions of everything. There's a little drop down where you can pick, like, what is it that you're most interested in? And we'll give you our course recommendations.

Perfect. And your podcast is called Pillow Talks. And the episode that you mentioned about therapy, I will definitely link in the show notes as well. Well, thank you so much, you guys. This was such a great conversation and I think it's again, just so important that people talk about this stuff, and I love that you're making it a little easier to talk about, so thank you.

Thanks so much for having us.

Thank.

You.