Podcast

What is something you've changed your mind about as you've researched sex?

What's your dream podcast collaboration?

Have we ever recorded a podcast episode while annoyed or irritated at each other?

Have we?

Would you ever consider having an open relationship? Slash, do you want to consider it right now? Because I'm asking you. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. It is our 200th episode today.

I find that hard to believe.

What? Too low or too high?

I mean, it just doesn't feel like.

I think we lied. Yeah, we just did a few numbered episodes.

I think we're lying. I think it's a conspiracy that all the 199 episodes up till now was actually us, because I don't remember them all. I mean, it feels like it's. It feels like it can't possibly have been 200 that we've been doing this.

200 episodes wild. Four years, right? 52 weeks a year.

52 weeks a year. Yeah. That's.

Oh, my God. It hasn't been four years.

And we haven't taken any breaks.

I know. I'm too stubborn.

We got an episode a week. Oh, yeah. No. No one asked that question. And ask us anything.

Why have you never taken a break? Because Vanessa's too stubborn, too.

We've had differing opinions on whether breaks are acceptable. We've gone with no breaks.

I mean, this has been a really wild journey. 200 episodes. We've talked about so much stuff. We've done so many different kinds of episodes. We've gotten ultra personal. We've given advice. We've shared community stories. We've laughed, we've cried. We've cried. We've done a lot on this podcast.

Yeah.

And I'm really excited to continue. Get to the next hundred. The next 200.

Me too.

How many years can we keep it going?

I will see. Maybe. I mean, we were. We were just talking about. Are we. There was one question. I'm not sure now. I can't remember if we're answering it, but, I mean, we were talking about being quite old still. Doing this. So, you know, maybe we'll be doing, you know, episode 1000.

A thousand? Oh, my God. That'd be crazy. What?

Wait, wait, hold on. What would that be? If this 200 is approximately four years.

20 years would be then.

20 years.

I mean, I guess we wouldn't be that old. Yeah, that's only another 15 years.

Let's fucking go.

Fun will be like 55, 56.

Yeah. One week at a time, baby.

Let's go. All right, so we decided for this episode to do a ask us anything episode. These have always been one of our most popular themes. And we told you guys, like, get nosy. Ask us some questions that you really want to know the answers to. Challenge us to make us blush. Yeah, make us blush. Challenge us to answer some questions that you don't think we would answer. And we. We got questions all over the place. I will say, though, I specifically said I was like, don't ask us. Like, don't do the boring stuff. Like, what's your favorite color? Where are you from? And there were a lot of those. Yeah, we're not gonna talk about our favorite color or where we're from, but we will. We did get a lot of really interesting ones. We couldn't even really pick. Cause there were so many, but I think we picked some good ones. We're gonna be all over the place. So to celebrate this big milestone, we put together a couple of really fun and totally free things for you. Just some fun ways to celebrate. So first up is we have a brand new and totally free intimacy quiz. So one of the things we know so many couples, us included, struggle with is this feeling of wanting to improve the intimacy in your relationship, but really not knowing where start. And something that we love doing. Just as business owners, as a couple ourselves, like, we love creating lots of different tools and resources and techniques and ideas. But of course, that can get a little overwhelming sometimes. Like, well, I don't know where to start in my unique relationship. So we put together this quiz to help you identify a starting point and a journey to go through that's really going to be best for your relationship.

Yeah. Because the reality is, you know, when you think of, okay, let's work on our relationship, there's a lot of places that you could start if you. I mean, all you need to do is look at our Instagram page or look at our podcast titles and see, like, oh, my God, there's like, literally hundreds of possible things that I could do. I. You know, we could work on sexual technique. We could work on better initiation, we could work on better communication. We could work on, you know, exploring new things in the bedroom. There's so there's such an open ended to working on your relationship and it's so easy to just be like, God, it's gonna take like looking at all the options. It's gonna take so long. It seems like so much work. I don't want to have to do all that. It's like a lot of trial and error. But what we have really come to discover is that we truly believe that there are five keys to lasting intimacy in your relationship. And the, the key is figuring out which of these, which of these five keys is the right. Is the right starting place. So, yeah, this quiz helps you identify which of these areas is going to kind of give you the most bang for your buck. What's going to be the best starting point that's going to move you furthest, quickest.

So if you want to take the quiz, it's super quick, just a few questions, but it's really going to give you some great insight into your relationship. You can go straight to vmtherapy.com five keys. That's vmtherapy.com five keys. We'll also put that link in the show notes to check it out. But we are super excited about this quiz. We think it's gonna be really fun and really helpful for every couple. So check that out@vmtherapy.com five keys.

All right. And the next thing that we're doing for you is we're bringing a little March Madness into your life. Now, if you're not a basketball fan, that is totally fine because we're doing a different kind of March Madness. I'll be honest with you. I'm not really into college basketball either. I just know that March Madness.

Oh, is it just college basketball?

Yeah. March Madness is literally a college basketball tournament. A men's tournament, and a women's tournament.

Oh, I thought it was just like any basketball.

Well, you got like high school, college and pros, like, playing each other.

No, not playing each other, but like, I thought like, the NBA has March Madness.

No, no, the NBA just has the regular season in March.

Well, that's boring.

Yeah. March Madness is just college basketball.

Okay, yeah, whatever.

It's. It's a tournament, but we're doing a different kind of tournament. We are putting eight bedroom positions, eight sex positions, head to head in the ultimate March Madness sex position showdown.

So that's the kind of March Madness.

Yeah, this, this is the kind of March Madness. The sexy March Madness that we can get behind. So here's how it works. Like you get to vote on each bracket and we're going to tally everything up and at the end, one sex position will reign supreme and will become our next free guide. We will break down exactly how to do that position, how to get into it, how to get out of it, how to move in it, figure out exactly what it is good for and why you might want to do it. So here's how it's going to work. On Sundays and on Wednesdays in March, we're going to be posting a reel with two positions that are going to go head to head. Then you are going to vote on which position you like better. Then on Fridays, we will announce the winning position. All right, so if you want to play along, make sure that you are following us on social at Vanessa and Xander.

So, yeah, we hope you have fun with both of these things and also stick around until the very end of the episode because we have another little insider secret to share with you. We went all out on this episode.

We're a big tease today.

Three different things that were given to you, creating for you. Yeah, we just had to go for it. When was the last time you needed to go to a doctor but you pushed it off, made the excuse, I'm too busy, it'll heal on its own. I don't need the help or I don't know what doctor to go to. I think we've all been there. Sometimes booking a doctor's appointment can just feel so daunting. But thanks to zocdoc, there is no reason to delay. They make it so easy to find and book a doctor who is right for you. Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click instantly to book an appointment. They just make it so simple. The next time Xander or I are in need of any sort of medical care, we are definitely going to turn to Zocdoc. They have more than 100,000 doctors, every specialty you can imagine. Mental health, dental health, primary care, urgent care, and incredibly easy filters. You can look for people who take your insurance, are located nearby and are highly rated by verified patients. And making the appointment is super easy. It's all online. No having to call in, awkwardly talk to a receptionist and you can score super fast appointments like 24 to 72 hours. Go to Zocdoc.com pillow to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com pillow zocdoc.com pillow okay, so let's get into these questions.

Let's go.

Xander, I think you have to ask me the first one.

All right. Vanessa, how would you feel if Xander decided to shave his beard? Does he let you have a say? I just have to laugh at this one. Do I let her have a say?

Okay, so here's the story behind Xander's beard.

Hold on. The real question should be, does Vanessa let Xander have a say?

Okay. Xander started growing out his beard on our honeymoon. And I had never. For the, like, I don't know, we were together three and a half years before getting married. Four years. I had never seen you with a beard or even facial hair. You were always very clean shaven.

Yep.

And so you started growing out facial hair when we were on our honeymoon. And I was like, excuse me, who is this man? Because he is.

Who's this hairy man?

He is significantly hotter than the man that I married. I was really into it. I just think you look so good with facial hair. And I was like, please don't ever shave that again. And so we got home from our honeymoon and I think we. You. I think you only did it cause we, we went on like a three week honeymoon and you're like, well, you know, I just don't really wanna shave. And I've never been on a trip this long before. I'm just gonna like let it go.

Let's see how long it gets.

So we came back, you immediately shaved it to go back to work. And I was devastated. I was like, where did it go?

I didn't tell it. I got in the shower and I just did it.

I almost cried when you came out.

I think I was a little nervous to show up at Google. And that's so weird. I had just so. So here's what's going through my head. I had just started that job. I. I had like, they, they really did me a solid in terms of everything because like, I basically got a job offer from them. My start date was going to be three weeks before our wedding. And so I kind of had to be like, I'd love to take this job, but I need you to know that I'm getting married and I have a three week. You know, I'm. I have a two and a half week honeymoon plan plus wedding. Like I'm going to need to take three weeks off, even though I haven't earned any vacation or anything yet. And I was like, you know, I could start on the day you want Me to. I could start after the wedding. They decided they wanted me to start and then take three weeks off. So I did that. So I was like. I was like, these people don't know me very well. Like, I've just. I've just been working there for three weeks and I'm gonna, like, show up looking totally different. I was like, I don't feel comfortable with that.

Yeah.

So I shaved it all off. But then I was like, oh, God, that was a horrible mistake.

Yeah. So he's had a beard and mustache of varying lengths. You, like, really grew it out for a while. I mean, it was pretty long.

Oh, yeah, for a while.

Very bushy now.

It's too short.

I didn't like it. But yeah, you've had this for 13, 14 years now. And I'm really attached to it. And I really don't want you to shave. And you've been fine with that. Except recently, just in the last few months, you've got it in your head that it makes you look older. And you think that, like now, because you're almost 40, maybe you wanna look a little younger, which is crazy. Caus men just look so much hotter as they age. It's really unfair. So you've been thinking about it a little bit, and I just really don't want you to. I mean, at the end of the day, it's your body. I can't tell you what to do with your body, but I really don't want you to.

Shame. You know, it's really 50, 50. Like, first of all, the part of me, what you're describing as like, you know, Xander wanting to shave. It's not that I want to. It's. There's a slight bit of curiosity where I'm like. I am kind of curious what I would look like now without a beard. I know what I look like.

AI thing. Can somebody just. Can somebody.

Yeah, someone AI me.

Take a picture. Somebody who's good at Photoshop, take a.

Picture of Xander and just like Photoshop thing. That's an AI thing. Whatever.

Just take out his beard and DM it to us at Vanessa and Xander so he can see and then he won't shave and I won't have to have my heart broken.

Yeah, I would actually. That would be great. If someone can do that. That would be super cool. I would love to see what you think look like without a beard, because that would help me out. I am really curious because, like, when I look back at those old pictures of me, I don't love the way that I look. However, I was also really out of shape and not eating very healthy and, like, a lot of other challenges in my life that were contributing to me maybe looking the way that I was looking. And I just am curious, but I have a feeling that even if I did shave that I would be like, I'm. I want to go back to the beard. However, that's just, like, too many.

However, that's just a.

That's just a small part of me. I am curious, though. Which version of my beard do you like the best?

I like it longer. Honestly, when it gets, like, a little.

Bit bushy longer than what I have.

Right now, I think it looks good.

I trimmed it yesterday.

Yeah, I think it looks good trimmed, but I. I don't know. It kind of does it for me when you've got, like, a big, thick beard.

Really? Yeah. I feel so dirty like that.

No, not like you. It got a little bit too long at a certain point, or I was.

Like, Well, I also had really long, but my hair. Everything was unkempt in that.

Yeah, but I like it a little bit longer. Okay. What is something you've changed your mind about as you've researched sex? I just want to say, first of all, that I think changing your mind about stuff is a really good thing. People get really freaked out about this, but I think the perspective I always take is if I'm looking back at the work that we did five years ago, 10 years ago, and I'm not cringing then, I'm not growing enough. I want us to be changing our minds, learning new things, growing and changing.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, like, this idea that somehow, like, you're supposed to pick a lane and stay in it at all costs. Like, okay, so, like, the reality is we learn and we grow and our perspective changes. So it's like, okay, well, I could just, like, block all of that out and be like, nope, this is what I said 10 years ago, and this is what I'm sticking with. But, like, I mean, honestly think back to who you were 10 years ago and the things that you were thinking or saying or doing, and, like, would you really, truly be happy if that was, like, exactly who you were right now? I'm guessing the answer is probably. Probably no. I know for me, it's certainly no. That is not who I am now. That's not who I want to be. I feel like I feel more. I feel smarter. I feel healthier. I feel. You know, I feel all these. I'm much happier with who I am. Now than who I was 10 years ago. So, like, why would I want to be thinking the same way?

So what's something that you've changed your mind on when it comes to sex?

Let's see here. Well, okay. Definitely scheduling sex. Or like we like to say, scheduling intimacy. Planning for intimacy, perhaps. Because, yeah, I mean, I thought, much like most people think when it comes to scheduling sex, like, it's the butt of a lot of jokes in TV shows and movies, it's basically something that we see. It's a sign that couples, like a couple has gotten older and life has gotten more stale. Oh, my God, they have to put the sticker on the calendar so they know that they're going to have sex. And like, you know, when you're young and. And hot, everything's like, spontaneous and whatever, and that's how it's supposed to be. So I've changed my mind on it from a couple of perspectives. I mean, first of all, I've changed my mind on it just because it is something. One, once we got into a more, I don't know, mature relationship and sort of get had that experience of it feeling like life kind of catching up to us, like, scheduling sex was helpful for us. And I've seen how helpful scheduling sex or planning for intimacy or whatever you want to call it, we have a specific way that we recommend people do it that doesn't feel like, oh, my God, I've scheduled it. But I've seen how helpful that has been for us and for other people. But I think the thing that really has changed my mind is starting to understand that the reality with scheduling sex is that actually that hot, spontaneous sex that I'm putting in quotes right now, that was actually hot and fun and exciting, not because it was spontaneous, but because it was planned. And I think that we are deluding ourselves when we think, oh, yeah, no, everything was spontaneous back at the beginning because. No, the reality is at the beginning of a relationship, you are literally carving out time in your day. You're planning in advance when you're going to meet up with someone, when you're going to go out on a date with them. And the moment you become sexually active, there is a pretty strong understanding or assumption that when you go on a date, you have sex. And so the reality is, is that we have been. What we think is spontaneity is actually anticipation building and building and building. You are excited about seeing this person. You are excited about wanting to have sex later. You are thinking about what you're going to do. Later, you're doing things to prepare, and you're building up this energy and excitement for your date and for the sex that you are going to have.

Yep. The problem is not that you have to schedule sex, it's that you stop scheduling it in the first place.

Yep.

Okay, I'm. I don't think I've even said this to you out loud, but I am in the middle of possibly changing my mind about one of the most frequently given answers that I ever give.

Interesting. Do I know about this?

No, you don't. But I've been mulling it over in my head for a little while.

Okay.

How much sex should we be having? Our answer has always been, like, there is no magic number. There's no right amount that's gonna work for every single couple. And I still totally agree with that. Like, I think as human beings, our relationships are so varied, they're so different, that I still believe there is not one magic number.

I mean, there's not one magic answer on nearly anything for every couple. There's always going to be some exception.

That being said, I'm kind of mulling over whether it's helpful to give some sort of guidelines around it. Like, the comparison I'm thinking about is exercise. There's no specific amount of exercise per week that every single person in the entire world could do and be healthy. Health comes in all shapes and sizes. Health is affected by so many different things. We can't just pin it on that.

But exercise is generally good. Right. Like, the advice is you should exercise.

We should move our bodies in ways that feel joyful and good to us. Yes. And with exercise, like, we do get specific guidelines. Like, and nobody's saying, like, yeah, well, you could exercise once a year and that'll be totally fine. Right?

Yeah.

Like, we have general ideas of. Of how often we should be exercising, or at least, like, that it's something we should be doing regularly. And I kind of have been wondering, like, is that something that could be beneficial when it comes to sex? Because I do worry that people hear the, like, there is no mag number. And they take it as this sign of, okay, well, then I don't have to, like, try to have it or.

Think things can just remain the way that they are. Yeah.

And I do very firmly believe that sex is an important part of. Pretty much, like, of most relationships, not every relationship, because there is asexuality. There are people who choose not to, you know, have sexual relationships, but the vast majority of relationships, I think sex is an important part. And I think Sex takes an active effort. I think we get ourselves into so much trouble when we just sit around waiting to feel that spontaneous desire out of nowhere. I, I want couples to get in the mindset of sex is something that we work at. We put energy, effort, time into connecting with each other. So I kind of wonder from that perspective if giving, again, not saying you have to have sex X number of times per week, but maybe giving a little bit more of a guideline could be helpful. I don't know. I'm curious to know what you guys think as you're listening to this.

Is, Is the, Is there kind of like a cheekiness to it? Kind of like the, you know, like if you have to ask how expensive something is, it's probably too expensive. Is it the same kind of thing with this where it's like, if you're asking how much sex I should be having is the answer is probably more.

Than what you're having? Yeah, for sure. I would definitely agree with that.

Of course, there are some notable exceptions. We do hear from people who are like, who are like, oh, like we have sex twice a day, like, should we be having more? Yeah. And like, I can almost, I can almost definitively say if you are having sex two times a day every day.

I mean, if you want to have more.

Yeah, if you want, if it feels exciting for both of you to have more and your body is capable of that, man, more power to you. Cheers. Cheers to you, I say.

So we've been on a fun beverage kick lately and Xander has been making a great little concoction of some matcha green tea plus a cure citrus pack to make like a little matcha lemonade. Cure is a plant based hydrating electrolyte drink mix with no added sugar. It's a natural, delicious and convenient way to keep you and your whole family hydrated without all the artificial stuff. So if you're somebody who struggles to drink enough water, you definitely want to check out Cure. They have some incredible flavors. Berry, pomegranate, strawberry, kiwi, watermelon, tropical punch, blood orange. They just add a little bit of flavor to make your water taste better. It's the perfect way to start your day. Give you a little boost from all those electrolytes and just super simple to stash in your bag and throw into a water bottle at any point. The reality is most of us are dehydrated. Actually, 75% of Americans don't drink enough water, which is leading to all sorts of symptoms like fatigue, headaches, brain fog and dry skin.

I know that once I started having electrolytes every day, I stopped getting, like, kind of. I would get kind of headachy by the end of the day. And all of a sudden it was like, boom. That was just gone.

Now, for pillow talks listeners, Cure is offering 20% off your first order. Stay hydrated and feel best by visiting cure hydration.com pillow and using promo code pillow at checkout. That's cure hydration.com pillow and use code pillow for 20% off your first order. Okay, here's the next one. Why do you hide being Jewish but not Latin? And I had to do this one because this person.

This is what we asked for, right?

This person has asked this question, like, many times on Sundays. Whenever we do asks anything, it has popped up. I've seen it before many times, and I can't read through all of the questions every week. So I'm sure they've even sent it through more times than I realized.

I have a question for this person, though. How do we hide being Jewish? If you know that we're Jewish, how did you learn that? Because we must have told you. So how are we hiding it?

This question gets. That's such a, like, interesting, interesting dynamics that come up when people have, like, any semblance of a personal brand. But if you've never heard us talk about our backgrounds before, we are both half Jewish. Both of our dads are Jewish, which technically, like, Trinity, traditionally, we're not Jewish. Yeah. Judaism only gets passed down through the mother's side.

So our mothers would have had to convert to Judaism before having us in order for us to, technically speaking, by most Jewish measures, for us to be Jewish. So for us to truly be Jewish, we would have to convert, though. Like, there's plenty of, like, synagogues that would, like, we could have had a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah. It's kind of consistent by, like. Yeah, there's different perspectives on that. But the technical perspective is we are technically not Jewish.

And I am half Mexican. My mom is full Mexican. Xander is a quarter Nicaraguan. His mom is half Nicaraguan. Doing the math right there. So for both of us, like, Judaism is part of our family history, but we don't practice it in any way. Like, I've never been to temple for services. My family growing up, like, we very casually would celebrate the major holiday. You know, like, we'd light the candles for Hanukkah.

But there was Hanukkah and Passover, probably are the two.

No, we never. It was just Hanukkah.

Oh, just Hanukkah.

Just lighting the candles for Hanukkah. So, like, I appreciate. I think there's a lot of stuff about Jewish culture and faith that I appreciate, but I've never really considered myself, like, personally, I don't consider myself Jewish because it's not something that I engage with. I don't engage with the religion in any way.

Yeah, I mean, it is the same. Same for me, I think that was like a year or something where my dad sent me to Hebrew school and I learned, like, this is very casual, like, one day a week. Not like I went to, like, a Hebrew school of, like, five days a week. But, no, I went to. Yeah, I went to, like, Sunday school, basically. And I think that I got to a point where I could, like, read Hebrew. I couldn't understand what I was reading. Like, it. It would be as if you taught somebody how to read English, but you didn't teach them what any of the words meant. So it'd be like they could read something. It's kind of useless. Like, okay, so, like, I could, like, read, like, I could read a prayer or something, or, like, you know, read a line from the Old Testament or something, but I couldn't tell you what it meant. And then I. Yeah, I stopped going to that. And, yeah, we would. We would celebrate Hanukkah and we would celebrate Passover, but not in a particularly religious way. So I've always considered myself sort of like Jewish by proxy or culturally Jewish, but. But I don't consider myself religious. I definitely consider myself spiritual.

Yeah, same.

But my spiritual connection doesn't have anything to do with Judaism. So, yeah, I don't talk very much about being Jewish because I don't feel Jewish in a religious sense.

The only thing that I can think of that maybe has caused this person to keep asking this question is that when there was the hostage situation in Israel, we were getting a bunch of DMs from people demanding that we speak about the situation. And this was also when there was this huge wave of antisemitism that was happening in this country. And I put up a post that said something about. Look, pressuring people to speak up in the exact right way that you want them to speak up just isn't an effective tool. You don't really know anything about the activism that we do outside of Instagram, and we don't do Instagram activism. That's been a conscious decision for us. Like, there are a lot of causes that we really care about. But spreading awareness on Instagram, like, there are plenty of Accounts that are about awareness and education and news and politics and activism. And I totally support that. And I've learned a lot myself from those kinds of accounts. But that's not the kind of account that we have. Like, our business is about sex, relationships, intimacy. And so for us, it's really become like a mental health issue. Like, trying to. You just can't understand it unless you have a large Instagram account yourself. But whenever you post anything remotely political or, like, about a certain cause, you just get flooded with messages. Some in support, most not. And like, they can be incredibly nasty. Like, people have threatened our lives before, people have threatened our business before. It's just, yeah, having to sit with that much intensity and hatred and anger, like, it's really challenging. And I don't think that us posting about politics every once in a blue moon is really going to affect any change. What we prefer to do with our energy is we find the causes that we care about. We find organizations. We make incredible financial donations. We donate a significant percentage of our profits from our business to charities every month. We get involved with activism in other ways that for us are more meaningful and that feel like this is a way that we can really make a difference rather than it's just a personal choice. Like, being an activist on Instagram, for me is just something that I don't choose myself. So anyways, a very long winded way of saying, saying I posted something that was like, look, we're not, you know, we don't post about activism stuff. We don't post about, like, world events, politics stuff on our account. And also, though, like, because it was somebody who knew that we were Jewish and they were like, why aren't you speaking out? And I said, I think I wrote something about, like, if, you know, you know, if you've been here for a while, like, you may have a feeling about why we might not be wanting to say something. Because at that time we were feeling scared. Like, I had idea.

No.

And I had never seen antisemitism growing up. Like, growing up being half Jewish. It was kind of cool. Maybe this sounds crazy to so many other people who have experienced it. I'm not saying antisemitism didn't exist. I'm just saying my personal experience was that I had never experienced it. And then all of a sudden I am feeling it and I am feeling this fear for the first time in my life. And I was like, okay, I. I previously didn't really want to speak up about what was going on. Also, I fucking know nothing about the History of Gaza, the history of Israel. Like, I am not educated on that. I am not the person you want to be learning about this stuff from. Like, I think any sort of violence against any sort of person is horrible. I don't want there to be any violence in the world. But, like, I'm not the person you want to be learning from about this. And also, I'm fucking with scared for the first time in my life. This is really not the time that I want to be speaking out about something that.

Yeah, let's dip our toes into the world of political activism on Instagram. No, thanks.

Yeah, so that's the only thing that I can think of that maybe that person thought that we were trying to, like, hide being Jewish. I was never. Yeah, I was never trying to hide it. It's just, it's not a. Yeah, it's not a huge part of, like, what our day to day life experiences. We don't engage with it in any sort of way.

But again, it's not a part of our business or our, like, philosophy on sex and relationships. So, yeah, I don't. It doesn't have much of a place on our account.

Yeah, I'm proud of that heritage. I'm proud of, like, my family's history, just as I assume everybody's proud of their, you know, their family's history and heritage. But yeah, it's not. So it's. It's not a hiding kind of thing.

All right, well, let's really shift gears.

This is kind of related, though.

Oh, okay. Well, I mean, this, this is one that's gonna get some comments. I know with certainty we are going to get some.

We said we'd go.

Nasty commentary on this.

We're gonna go there, celebrate our 200 episodes by getting ourselves in trouble.

So what do you think about circumcision? And if you're, if you're hearing that, like, what the. Like, like how, like what. Where is the hate on this topic? I mean, maybe talk about, like, where this all comes from.

Yeah, I mean, I refuse to talk about circumcision on Instagram. It's like actually a boundary for me because I know that there's gonna be so much intensity that gets directed our way if we do talk about it there. But I trust you, our podcast, Pillow Talks, podcast listener, to be a little more nuanced. Instagram, social media, it's not really the place for nuance, but in the podcast, like, we can have longer, more nuanced, thoughtful discussions. So I'm against circumcision if we had children. If we had a child who was born a boy, I would not circumcise our child. I think that circumcision is genital mutilation. And unfortunately, it has been really normalized as part of our culture in the US In a lot of other countries. Some places in the world it is. Some places in the world it isn't. But we're going more towards less circumcision worldwide and less circumcision in the US too. But it really has become normalized. The reality is, though, that there isn't any good reason to remove a portion of a baby's genitals. Like, there are. People will cite. Oh, well, there are some studies saying that it. It prevents UTIs and that it can, you know, penis can be a little bit cleaner. But, like, those are not strong enough reasons to do that. Like, yes, everybody needs to learn proper hygiene. And yeah, having an extra little flap. And I don't even want to say extra. Cause like, having the flap of skin that you were born with, having that flap of skin that you were born with, there's a tiny bit extra little cleaning that has to go into it of, like, retracting the foreskin cleaning there. So sure, there's some education that has to go into it, but. But we all have to educate our kids about how to properly take care of our bodies. And it's not like it takes anything extra. Also, like, extra risks of UTIs. Like, for the vast majority of people, like a UTI, it's not a pleasant experience. But for the vast majority of people, it's not a horrible experience. And again, that can really just be rectified with proper hygiene. There's not any true medically necessary reason to do this. The main thing that comes up these days for people is feeling like. Like, well, you know, we hear from a lot of people, like, well, the father is circumcised. And won't it feel weird for the child that, like, their body doesn't look the same as their partner's body does? But again, like, to me, it's like your body was born that way for a reason. Why do we need to. Why do we need to change any part of this body? Why do we need to, like, surgically remove a part of the body? And by the way, this is also a part of. Of the body that is capable of so much sensation, like the foreskin or.

Protecting another area so that it can feel more sensation.

The foreskin itself has a lot of sensation. And yeah, it like, affects the sensation of the head of the penis, too. Like, you're taking away a lot of sensation from the penis.

Yeah. You're desensitizing the head of the penis because now it is always exposed.

Yeah. It's just. It's so. It's so challenging. And I don't want to. I want to be really clear. Like, I don't want to make anybody feel guilty or bad for having chosen this for their child. I don't judge people for that. Like, ultimately, it's your family. You make your own decisions. So I want to be super, super clear about that. And I do think, like, because it's become so culturally normalized, a lot of people don't even think about it. They just think, like, oh, yeah, you're supposed to do that. I'm doing what's best for my child. I think, like, the vast majority of people, I would say everybody who's gotten their child circumcised has done it because they thought that was the best thing for their child, which I, you know, I totally can appreciate that. And at the same time, I. Yeah, I think it's. I really. Yeah, it's a practice that I just don't support and that I want there to be more education about and people to. Yeah. Be able to make different decisions. And it's really tough to see, you know, we see so much about women, you know, young women, young girls in Africa, you know, getting genital mutilation there. There's all these, you know, organizations that are trying to stop that. We absolutely should be. But it's interesting that we don't recognize, like, we're doing the same thing here at home.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in a less.

Barbaric way, and it's less about, like, Let me be clear, like, there's a lot more about, like, control and power and, you know, shaming women and girls. And, you know, it's a different vibe, a total different vibe around it. But the reality is we're still doing the same basic physical thing. We're removing genitals, portions of the genitals which don't need to be removed.

Yeah. And I mean, I. I think that, yeah, the challenge in talking about that is that, you know, when somebody hears you say that, it can feel like an attack on them personally, because it's either, you know, like, you know, for me, for example, I'm a man who has been circumcised. And so I think, like, it can be easy to hear that and be like, oh, well, like. Like, you're judging me, or you're judging the choice I made for my child. And I. It's not about judging that. It's not like you are bad because you've been circumcised or you're bad because you circumcised your child. Like, I feel like I can hold both things. Yeah, I. I am circumcised. My. My dad was circumcised. Like, I think it was basically done because it was just like, oh, that's just what we did in my family. And. Yeah. And I can. I can be happy with my genitals, with my penis, with my. The experience I have sexually. And I can also say, huh, yeah, maybe it would have been nice to have a little more sensation, to be able to feel a little more, to be able to, you know, just have. Have the penis. Be as, you know, nature or God or whomever intended it to be.

Just to have your little turtleneck.

Yeah. Sometimes you get cold without turtleneck. I just want to be Steve Jobs. You took my Steve Jobs away.

Oh, my God. Okay. I'm glad we can laugh about it because I'm like sitting over here getting hot and feeling nervous about people feeling like we're judging them. And I. Yeah, I just want to be super clear again. Like, like I'm not judging anybody. I don't look down on anybody for having made this decision. I just want, like, going forward, I want there to be more education and more awareness about this, that it isn't something that's medically necessary.

Yeah. So your. Your advice would be, if you are considering circumcision, to perhaps consider not doing it.

Yeah. I used to dream past in the locker room, behind the bleachers, in the library. There were times when I felt almost tortured just being around you. Do you still. It's very, very difficult for me to not touch you. That was a little clip from Lil somethin somethin called Hometown. That was from Dipsea, the female founded app for spicy audiobooks and more created by women for the female gaze. So if you listened to that clip and were like, excuse me, that's a little bit exciting. I want to hear a little bit more.

Yeah. Where else did you think about me?

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Okay.

Okay. And then say the name of the person who would cope best.

Okay.

Okay. Three, two, one. Vanessa.

Vanessa. For sure I would be tore up.

I would be tore up too. But I think I would. I think I'd cope better.

Lost my best friend.

I love you. I would miss you so much.

My life partner. I don't know how to do life without you.

I would really prefer in a non.

Codependent way because you actually. You left on a girls trip a couple weeks ago for like five days. And I actually did great without you.

You did? Very proud of you. You haven't done great.

I'm proud of me too. Because the time before that, that you left, it had been a number of years since you had left me at all. Before that, I. I struggled. So I really took it upon myself to take good care of myself.

I think I make your life very exciting.

You say that. That is. You always say that. You always say it with the same tone. I. I think I make your life very exciting. That's like a. That's like a your mom kind of thing.

I think it's spicy. Your life is a lot spicier with me in it than it would be without.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's that half Mexican. Yeah, it's that hidden Jew, half Latina, hidden Jew vibe. Okay. Would you ever consider having an open relationship? Slash, do you want to consider it right now? Because I'm asking you.

Oh, okay. Like, probably not.

Oh, okay.

Probably not. I mean, I feel like. Like I feel like knowing everything that I know now. I feel like I could be better set up to do this.

Mm.

I feel like. I feel like I could be. I Feel like I could be far less jealous than I would have been in the past. I feel like, you know, in. In a way where I. That could perhaps be, like an emotion that I could learn to get more comfortable with. With that being said, the work that I know would be required in order to successfully be in an open relationship. That feels like a lot to me. I don't feel like there's time or space in my life for that. I'm really happy with the way that my life looks now. And I think a lot of people have this glass half full idea or overly romantic idea of what an open relationship looks like where it's just like, like, oh, yeah, I can just go out any night and hook up with someone.

And people who are in open relationships would tell you that's not.

Yeah. People in open relationships will be like, please do not do that.

Think of it as that. Yeah, don't.

Please don't do that. Yeah, it's an insult to me. And although, you know, like, hard work and, like, ethics that we have around this. Yeah. I think anyone who is in a successful open relationship would tell you it's a shit ton of work. It's something you really have to be devoted to, like, like, like ideologically devoted to.

It's a lot of communication. It's a lot of working on boundaries. It's a. A lot of dealing with emotions, all kinds of stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I can understand what, you know, like, what you could stand to gain in an open relationship. I mean, I think it's kind of like, I. I don't want to offend anybody by making this comparison, but it's, you know, like, okay, I think back to before we had a dog at all. We were really happy. We had a lot of love for each other. Then we got Winston, our first dog, and it was like, oh, my God, there's so much more love in my life. I was already so in love with you, I didn't think I could. I didn't know I was capable of experiencing more love. And now there's this other dog in my. You know, there's a third person in our relationship. His name is Winston.

Oh, my God. This might be an offensive comparison.

And I love him so much. And he also presents challenges that we have to overcome. But, like, all in all, it's like a huge net positive in my life. And then we got Maggie, we got a second dog, and it was like, oh, my God, I didn't even know I had the capacity to feel all this more love. And it's Just like. It's just. It's cool. It's really cool to have that experience. It feels really good falling in love with another dog, getting to know another dog. And so I can only imagine how much more could be available. Perhaps if it's. If it's another person with more. Yeah, someone that you can actually talk to and they can talk back to you. Because I talk to my dogs all the time. They don't.

Also, you can have sex with them, which is not happening with dogs.

Thanks for that clarification.

Yeah, I mean, I. I have a lot of respect for people who choose to be in open relationships, and I think it's a totally valid relationship model. I want people to, like, consciously decide what relationship model they want to explore that feels right for them. For me, personally, I'm not open to being open. Like, I. I like devoting my time and energy to one person, and I like focusing on the connection that I have with just that one person. Yeah, like, of course, of course. Sometimes the idea of having. Getting to have sex with somebody brand new sounds exciting. Or the getting to have the experience of falling in love with somebody new and having, like, a totally different connection. Like, sure, that could sound interesting sometimes, but it. Honestly, even as I'm saying that I'm like, not really. It doesn't feel that exciting to me, actually.

Yeah, I think, like, I. I don't know how it is for other people, but. Yeah, like, the. The idea of having sex with somebody new, it's like. I think intellectually it's like, oh, that could be exciting.

No, it's like I said it out.

Loud, but think about it. Ugh.

Actually, no, I'd. I want to. I'd rather focus on having the best sex that you and I can have.

Yeah, I mean, I was. I was thinking about this earlier today. For some reason. I must have heard something that made me think of it. But yeah, I mean, like, if I'm being really honest with myself, I've. I don't think I've ever had a. Had a, like, outside of a relationship, like, sexual interaction with someone where I've, like, truly come away from it feeling, like, really good about myself. Like, I think that I am. For me, I am someone that. I have learned I don't do well with casual sex. You know, for me, it's like that emotional connection part is so important, so key for me feeling, like, safe and comfortable doing it with somebody. That, that. And. And so that's why it's still even, like, even in a relationship with someone. And at the very beginning, it's kind of stressful and a little bit anxiety provoking because it's like, I'm still getting to know this person. You know, I don't feel like I can be fully vulnerable with them yet. And sex is a very vulnerable thing. So, yeah, it's like, I think that I've come to accept that. Yeah. Like, for me, I'm glad that I got into a relationship early on with you and got married early on, because I've never truly been happy single and like, dating or hooking up or whatever, I've. And. And I do know that for many people, that that is super fun and that they do enjoy that. And people do come away from one night stands feeling good. For me, if I'm being truly honest with myself, I've never had that experience. And so, yeah, one might say, well, maybe there's things that you could work on. Maybe that's some internalized shame or whatever. And sure, there's plenty of things that maybe I could work on, but I'm like, well, what I do, I want to work on that and try to overcome this thing or, like, focus my time and attention on the person I love that's right in front of me. And I'm choosing you.

Thanks, babe. I'm choosing you.

All right. Vanessa, are we still in couples therapy? How's it going? Or not going?

So we did a podcast episode called we're in Couples Therapy. I think it was called Couples.

I think we might have done two episodes. Yeah.

And then I think we did, like, ask us anything about couples therapy, but we are not in couples therapy anymore. We did it for. Gosh, how? A couple months.

Yeah, a couple months, I wanna say.

And yeah, we were always clear with our therapist, right from the beginning, that we had a specific thing that we wanted to focus on, which was actually like, did we want to talk openly and publicly about Xander's struggle with addiction and his sobriety? And of course, like, is the case pretty much anytime you start therapy. We did talk about other things as.

Well along the way. Yes, we did. And then we ended up talking about some of those other things for longer than we talked about the. The first presenting issue. Because, yeah, we decided together fairly quickly that, yes, we did want to share about that, and we have shared about that. We do talk about that from time to time. But again, kind of similar to the, like, Judaism thing. And it's like, you know, culturally, we're Jewish, I'm sober, I have struggled with addiction. Then again, we are not an account that focuses on that. Like, we don't talk about that in very much detail. It's. It's a. It's an important part of my life. It's an important part of my spirituality. But, you know, we're in the business of talking about sex, and that's what we do on our podcast and on Instagram. So that's why you don't see us talking about that a lot.

So, yeah, we had a really great experience overall. Like, we really connected with our therapist. We got some great insight from him, some great tools. We were able to talk through, like, a number of different dynamics and just had a great experience. And then we talked to him about, you know, hey, we're feeling like we're getting ready to wrap up, which I highly recommend doing. People never do this.

Like, don't ghost your therapist.

Don't ghost your therapist. Like, back when I was seeing people one on one, I would get ghosted a lot, and I kind of knew it was coming because you could feel things, like, starting to wrap up. But it's actually really great to practice goodbyes with your therapist. Like, tell your therapist, hey, I'm feeling like I'm ready to stop or take a break. It's a really great experience to have. And, like, a good therapist wants you to leave. A good therapist does not want you to hang out with them for, like, years and years and years and years.

Yeah. And it's. Honestly, it's really validating to share that with your therapist and hear them say to you, yeah, I think you're ready. I think you're ready. I mean, that's. I. I stopped individual therapy recently and had that experience with my therapist where I was like, yeah, you know, like, I just want to talk about, like, what. What does the. What do you think the future looks like? That's because I'm realizing I'm coming into our sessions and struggling to. To think of things to talk about. He was like, yeah, that makes perfect sense, like, given where you're at. So, yeah, why don't we just move to an as needed basis? And it's. Yeah, it feels good to hear, you know, the person that you trust recommending to you, the same thing that you're thinking about.

So, yeah, we are not currently in it. Haven't been in it for a while. But it's really good to know that that's a resource that is always available to us. And I'm sure we will go back.

Yeah, we got. We got his number.

We know where he lives.

We don't know where he lives. We know where he works.

Maybe not anymore, though. He moved offices, like, five times when we were working with him. Okay. Xander, have we ever recorded a podcast episode while annoyed or irritated at each other?

Have we? We most certainly have. We most certainly have. I think it may. That may have been easier for one of us than for the other.

Oh, who?

I feel like it's harder for me.

I can fake it a little bit more if I need to. Yeah.

Yeah.

No, you're right.

Yeah. I've had some, like, traumatic experiences in a past relationship with, like, faking everything being okay, I guess. I don't know. It's harder for me to not be reminded of that.

I don't think of it as faking. I think of it as, like, I can put this. I can compartmentalize. I can put this aside for now. And I'm not gonna fake that you and I are, like, like, so good and happy. But I can, like, be neutral with you. But, yeah, you do have some trauma around the faking aspect of it. I will say, though, I don't think we've ever started an episode annoyed or ir, like, majorly. We might have been, like, a little irritated with, like, you're kind of annoying me a little bit.

But honestly, there might have been a couple where we were about to start, and we were like, no, we were like, you know what? This is not a good idea.

Well, what we have done is if we're feeling a little annoyed or irritated, we do, like, an awkward date dance party, and shake off. That gets the vibes. Right. But we have had plenty of experiences where we've been in the middle of recording and have gotten, like. Like, had fight. We've only had, like. Yeah, we've had annoyances. I think we've gotten in, like, we got in a big fight, like, one time. We had to scrap the whole, like, record. We had to throw everything away.

Oh, yeah, I remember that now.

It's. It. I will say, too, like, it's really awkward. Cause we know the annoyance and irritation will never make it into the episode, but we know that our editors will see and. Or hear it, and that can be really. We had an experience just, like, a couple of.

Oh, no.

Was it even the last one we recorded?

Maybe.

Yeah. Xander, like, went off on this tangent and said something, and I was like, oh, I think maybe that's, like, maybe let's not share that in the episode. And then you got really, like, felt put on the spot and didn't know how to, like, get back how to, like, Restart the episode. And you were just sitting there, like, really awkward. Like, just give me a minute. And I could tell it's like, you know, it's. Cause the cameras are on and the mics are recording, and we know that the editors on the other end are gonna, like, see this awkwardness, and it just. Yeah, it feels a little strange.

Yeah, it's really. It's really awkward when you are. So, I mean, what we are doing right now, we have three iPhones recording video. One on me, one on Vanessa, one wide shot of us. You can see that all on YouTube. YouTube, by the way, which you should go to YouTube and watch me hide this out. We also then have audio from two different mics recording on this laptop. And so what that means is there is no simple way to press pause without stopping everything and then, like, starting it back up. And then you have to wish there was, and then you have to, like, explain to your editor, oh, yeah, sorry. It's just like, this is in multiple pieces because we had to stop in the middle or whatever. Like, there's no way. It's even awkward to be like. Because, like, we're recording. This is all literally on tape or, you know, in the cloud, whatever. It's, like, committed to the camera or the. The. The. The audio. Like, just the. Hey, want to stop? Like.

Yeah.

You want to stop to talk about this? Like.

Yeah.

It's like an admission we are about to have a. Do we want to have a fight? Yeah, right now. Sorry, editor. We got to hit pause while we figure some shit out. So it's just a. It's an awkward situation.

Yeah.

Unless we were that at everything ourselves, and neither of us have the skills for that.

But, yeah, I mean, we're like.

We're humans.

We're humans. We get annoyed and irritated at each other. I honestly can't remember what we thought about. It was something personal, like you were sharing something personal about our relationship that maybe I.

Like.

Like, didn't. I feel like I didn't know that you felt that way, or I felt like maybe it was too personal at the time. I don't. I can't even fully remind you.

I think.

Don't remind me.

I'm not. I'm not. It was like, you were. You were saying something like, oh, like, this is a. This is a thing. This is like, a dynamic that can happen in relationships. And I was like. Without really thinking it through entirely, I was like, oh, I've definitely been guilty of that in our relationship. Like. Like. And then it was sort of like, As I said that, I was like, huh, Wait, Like, I wouldn't. It's not actually that fair to say. Like, you know, maybe there's been elements of this thing that I've, you know, of this dynamic that I've fallen into, but it's not really accurate to say, oh, yeah, that totally describes us. And I think that that was. Yeah, I can't remember what dynamic.

I will say, like, one thing that. So one of the challenges of working with your partner is that, like, feedback can sometimes feel super personal. Like, everything just feels so much more personal. And I think we get. We can have, like, weird moments with each other sometimes where. How do I say this? I feel like I'm a little more. There are more times where I'm like, that thing you said, maybe we should cut it.

You're more likely to produce me than to produce me.

To produce me.

I do, but just not as much. I'll tell you. Hey, why don't you, like, why don't you restart. Rephrase that. We're like, you stumbled over this word.

But it's so much more rare. Whereas I might be like, I think that's a little bit too much of a tangent to go on. And that's a dynamic that happens in our relationship outside of this room too. Like, I tend to be. I tend to bring things up more than you do, and that can feel challenging, for sure. Like, sometimes I'm like, sometimes I'm like, am I the only one paying attention to this, or do I care more about this? Sometimes I wonder, like, am I being a bitch? And Xander's just like. Like, the cool, laid back guy who never gets bothered by anything. And then I'm like, let's unsear that. I have to be the bitch, and Xander gets to be the cool, laid back guy. So it's just like, it's a complicated dynamic, both, like, in our relationship and in our business.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So the answer is we need a. In addition to all three cameras and audio, we also need a producer sitting in the corner that can stop me instead of you.

Maybe one day. We gotta get this podcast a little bit bigger.

All right, now I got one. This person, they really followed our instructions and they're trying to get the tea.

Okay.

So, Vanessa, have you noticed Xander speaking more than you in the podcasts lately?

I have not noticed that, but I do. Like, I do think we've been on a journey with this podcast and with our business as a whole, where, you know, we started off at the beginning of, like, I'm the sex therapist and Xander's the regular dude. And you had a little bit of a complex around, like, I don't have training like you do, and I don't have degrees and a license. Like, I don't have as much to say.

I was on a journey.

Yeah. And even, like at the beginning of this podcast, I think a lot of our episodes were more like I was really leading them and you were kind of sprinkling in the color commentary.

Yeah, it's like. It's like a NFL broadcast where you have like the play by play person and then the color commentary person. The color commentary person may talk longer at one time. Cause they might tell a story or an anecdote, but the play by play person is doing most of the meat of the game.

Yeah, but now I feel like you've really developed this confidence, you know, that you have something of value to offer. Like, you know that people enjoy hearing your perspectives and, like, getting to learn more about you. So I would say you definitely are talking more than you have before. But I haven't noticed a. Like, oh, he's talking more than me. And we do often get. Not often, but like, we have gotten other messages before. People saying, like, oh, Xander, like, talks over you all the time and he interrupts and blah, blah, blah. And then some of them have been people, like, getting kind of upset for me about it. And it's super interesting because there are times that you talk over me, and those are some of the times that I get annoyed and irritated and think.

Oh, you have no problem calling it out when it happens.

But there are also tons of times that I talk over you, and very.

Often I don't call. I mean, this is just gets back to the dynamic you talked about. I have a. I have a wider range of tolerance for things before they start to bug me. And often I'm just whatever. It's like, not in a. Not in a. Like, let me repress this. Like, I just have a. You know, everybody has a different range before.

Mine tends to.

Before their nervous system kind of gets activated.

And so, yeah, we both interrupt each other a fair amount. Like in business and in our relationship.

And in pleasure.

Not in pleasure, thank God. And it's funny. We both have a bad habit around interrupting each other, and we both hate being interrupted. So it is something that causes conflict in our relationship. But I will say it's challenging with the podcast because we're trying to make it an exciting episode. We're trying to have an engaging conversation, and sometimes it's hard to like. It's just a lot easier to interrupt each other in a podcast than it is in normal day to day conversation.

Yeah. I think that there has to be some tolerance for jumping in because you're trying to create fun, like, exciting moments and sometimes like funny moments. And you can't really do that if you're completely waiting. Okay. Oh, did you wrap that up?

Yeah.

All right, now let me come in with the joke. Like, it's not funny anymore. So. Yes.

But I will say one other thing and then we'll move on to the next one.

That was a big eye flutter.

There is also a dynamic that's important to recognize around men interrupting women.

Oh, absolutely. And I have historically plenty of work to do on that front.

Yeah, like, historically, we're not talking about an even playing field where women have been given the same space and respect that men have. So we gotta throw that in there as well.

Absolutely.

But, yeah, I don't. It doesn't irritate me a ton in the podcast. And I also am very aware that I'm very guilty. I just have interrupted you 10 times answering this question.

I've interrupted you a couple times answering this question too, for the good of the banter in the podcast. But, hey, I would be curious to anyone that is curious about this. I'm sure that there are some kind of AI tool that you could run a couple episodes through and literally tell us what are the percentages. I'd maybe cut out the intro and outro because. Because those aren't. Don't do that. I'd be curious to know. I'd be curious to know. I bet it would be more like 60, 40 you to me. But it may be 55. 45 could be 50, 50, who knows? And who cares? Kind of.

Wow, we gotten heated on this episode.

Yeah, I know.

We're, like, going so much longer than we usually do.

All right, well, let's wrap it up.

A couple rapid fires.

All right. All right. Vanessa, would you ever go back to offering private sex therapy?

So, little sneaky sneak answer here. We kind of do. We don't advertise it anywhere. So my original journey with this business is I started off doing one on one, and I transitioned into creating guides and courses because I wanted to be more affordable, more accessible. I wanted to help more people. And so I have not taken a new client for, like, there was probably a period of like five, ten years that I wasn't taking on anybody new. But Xander and I have just started offering packages, coaching packages, where we will Work with couples. But I will just give you a heads up. It's very expensive. Like, this is a four figure investment because we're really focused on keeping our stuff affordable and accessible to the majority of people. So we don't have the time to be working on, you know, working with people one on one. So we're just doing it on an extremely limited basis and we're charging a very hefty fee because we need to if we're directing that much of our time and energy away from. From doing the more affordable and accessible stuff. So if you're interested in that, you can always email infovmtherapy.com for all the details.

All right, finally, what's your dream podcast collaboration?

Okay, I'm putting this out into the universe. Oprah. I want to meet Oprah. I want to be on Oprah's podcast. She's just down the road. I want to go over there. I had a dream that it was going to happen, and I woke up and I was like, it's going to happen. I'm going to be on Oprah's podcast.

Vanessa, welcome to my tea house.

I'm waiting for it. So if anybody out there, you know, if you're Oprah's friend, her podcast producer, let's get Woo.

We're manifesting it. We're calling it in.

We're manifesting it.

We're putting it out there.

I'm going to put all my crystals out to manifest some Oprah. I just have so much respect for her. I really would love to meet her. It would just make my.

Make my year, make my life.

I mean, yeah, 20, 25. I'm declaring it this year. It's going to happen.

The year of Oprah. Let's do it.

All right. Well, we have to stop ourselves now. We could keep going.

This is wild.

This is so fun. But we're going to stop now. But we have one final surprise for you. There's something really big, a huge project that we have quietly been working on for months. We are totally changing our business, like, completely changing our business. What we have done until now and what we are going to be doing going forward very soon is just wildly different.

Yes, we want to be working. We want to be working more closely with people, and we want to be working more closely with people that want to be working on their relationship more regularly. So we are going to be changing some serious things up in our business model so that, you know, it is going to be, you know. Yeah, you're still going to be able to buy some of our courses here and there. But there's going to be another way of working with us that is really going to be for people that are really ready to and yes, really ready to work on their relationship regularly because that's what lights us up. And that's where we know that we can have the most impact.

Still affordable, still accessible?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Just a different way of looking at things.

But you got to get on our email list to find out the info. We're going to be sharing it very soon, so make sure to go over to vmtherapy.com subscribe to get on our email list. We will also put that link in the show notes. So check that out. We've got so much stuff for you. We've got the Intimacy quiz, which is@vmtherapy.com 5keys. We'll also have that link in the show notes. We have our March Madness bedroom bracket over at Vanessa and Zander on Instagram. And this big announcement if you go to vmtherapy.com subscribe.

All right. Well, at long last, because this is a long one, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. There are no more surprises. There are no more, more pieces of information that you need to know. Just thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being with us for 200 episodes. It, it really means so much to us. So join us again next week for episode 201. We release new episodes every Thursday by.