Vanessa Marin (sex therapist)

Wondry subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Expert Sign Expert. I'm Dax Randall Shepherd. I'm joined by Monica Lilly Badman.

Hi.

Hi. This is a saucy episode because we get to talk about sex. Baby. Let's talk about you and me.

I loved this episode.

Me too. It was really, really fun. Vanessa Mar Marin is a licensed psychotherapist specializing in sex therapy. She's also a best selling author. She has a book coming out on January 30th. She wrote that with her husband Xander Marin. And they also have a podcast that is already out called Pillow Talks which is hosted by Vanessa and her husband Xander.

I feel like people know about them.

Uh huh. Yeah.

They're out and about.

They're out and about. They have a social media presence.

Yes, they do.

But I do think not unlike her book, if you listen to this and you have been in a relationship, you're going to relate. I think we all will relate to this.

I mean, just like couples therapy Orna, where every single couple is dealing with some sort of sex issue, she sort of normalizes that and then helps people get through it. I found it very fascinating.

Yeah. And very, very informative. I think it'll be very encouraging for people. I think a lot of people have thrown in the towel or they feel defeated by it. And I think this is a very pragmatic, simple approach.

Yeah.

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Nice to meet you.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Hi Dax. Great to meet you. Happy New Year. Where in California do you live?

I live in Santa Barbara.

Oh, you do?

Yeah, I'm from there, but I lived here in Silver Lake for a long time before moved back last year.

How long were you away from Santa Barbara?

20 years.

Oh, 20 years.

Yeah.

I grew up there and then was like, I gotta get out of here. And then eventually realized, what have I done moving away from the best place in the world.

I lived there from 95 to 96 on Bath street, oh, maybe two blocks off the ocean in an enormous yellow building apartment. It looked like a McDonald's.

Yeah, that's an interesting spot.

What school did you go to?

I went to Santa Barbara High School.

And you didn't want to go to ucsb?

I didn't. I had very romantic ideas of going to school on the east Coast.

Of course, me too.

Never happened. Actually, I did kind of go to school on the east coast. Well, we can count it. It's technically, it's on the east coast of the south.

Oh, sure.

But wait, where did you.

Forgive me, I.

To Brown. So I got to have my experience and then was like, I'm not made for this. This weather.

I have to presume my children will want to go to the East. It's just really funny. Wherever you grew up, you want to go to the opposite. I was in Detroit and I was like, I got to get over to California.

It feels very glamorous, especially for college. Snow, older buildings and all the things.

Yeah, Santa Barbara's a. It's an interesting vibe, though. I don't know that everyone gets it. Like if you just go there on vacation, it's glorious. It couldn't be prettier. But when I was living there, I was like, there's a whole strata of kids whose parents are rich and they've been neglected and they're all meth addicts. And there's just a real weird underbelly there. Right.

There is.

And you don't expect it coming from Santa Barbara.

There's so much wealth, but it's low key wealth. It can mess with you in some interesting ways. So that's why I wanted to get out of it for a while. It's like, I don't want to have my whole life in this place. I need to get out, have some other experiences.

Yeah. And what brought your parents to Santa?

Barbar.

Are they like second generation as well?

Yeah. Are you one of the.

Are you a meth addict? Yeah.

We're gonna go in a totally different direction with this interview.

It's great for your sex life. Matt. Just talk to the users.

My mom's mom came up from Mexico. They had some family who had already immigrated and came there. My parents still live in the house that my mom grew up in.

No way. How old is that house?

It was made in the 1920s, I think.

Oh, okay.

So you know Santa Barbara, it's up in the Riviera, like beautiful, up in the hills. But back in the day, apparently that was a very undesirable neighborhood because it was too far from the beach. So it was a primarily Mexican community because the houses were really cheap up there.

Yeah. Is it by the Mission that's up there?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brings back a lot of good memories.

And you got a BA from Brown in sexual health and sociology. What was it? Sexual.

Human sexuality.

Human sexuality.

And in sociology I got dual bachelor's.

Okay. Now, did you feel brave by declaring this? Because let's just. I want to own my stuff. I'm a fucking pervert. If I could have majored in sex at college, obviously I could have. If I would have known, I could have. But then maybe some voice would have been like, you don't need to explore this more. You need to pull back.

You would have been disappointed because it's not like how to have sex, is it?

Well, let's talk.

That would have been fun. But no.

But did you feel like you were declaring your own pervertedness by majoring in that?

A little bit. I was always interested in sex therapy from a really young age.

Okay.

Sex just fascinated me. And my initial interest in becoming a sex therapist was actually my parents trying to give me the talk.

Okay.

It was super awkward. Like most people's experience of the talk is.

I didn't even get one.

A book was placed on a. Well, a book was placed on a shelf.

Yeah.

It was there when I was born. It was like, she'll probably find it.

She's a voracious reader.

She'll run out of everything else to read.

Did you get a talk?

Oh, it would blow your mind. What? My mother told me, probably over the line. I was in, I think, second grade and I. I heard people on the playground calling other kids butt humpers. He's a butt humper. So I came home and at dinner I said to my mom, so and so called so and so a butt humper. She goes, oh, okay. And I said, do people do that? Do they hump in the butt? And my mother goes straight faced immediately. Well, there's a tremendous amount of nerve endings in the anus. And some people find it pleasurable and some don't.

I love it.

I Was like, okay, on to the next thing.

And did you understand?

Yeah, totally. I'm like, okay, people do that. And some people like and some people don't. And that proved to be true. She probably should have mentioned most people don't like it. Some people do that. Maybe been more honest, but whatever.

We're pivoting a tiny bit, but it's in keeping. I didn't tell you this, but I took their daughter on a shopping spree for her birthday.

She's my best friend.

Auntie Monica spoils them.

Yes. And she was turning nine. We went to all these places, but we ended up at Target. And she's getting like little squishmallows mainly.

Very tactile child.

Yeah. But they're very mature, these children. Obviously, that's their grandma. And so we were walking by the lingerie, and I kind of assumed they already knew what it was.

Sure.

And Delta said, oh, that's a cool bathing suit.

Okay.

And I didn't even. It just came out of my mouth so fast. I was like, I think it's lingerie. And then she was like, what's that? And then I felt like I didn't. I was allowed.

What if you just instinctually went, there's a lot of nerve endings in the anus. What?

But it's a weird thing to explain to a kid that sometimes you want to dress sexy. Then I was like, am I putting something in her brain that she probably shouldn't hear? That you're supposed to dress up for people to make yourself sex?

It just got scary fast.

Well, I think you say that, you know, sometimes you want to wear a nice outfit when you go out for dinner and you want to feel pretty. You can also do that before going to bed if you want your partner. You know, you both want to be excited by what you're wearing to bed.

Oh, I didn't.

What did you say?

Whores wear lingerie?

I said, don't you ever wear that?

You're going to go straight to hell.

Whores.

No, I think I just said, oh, sometimes people like to wear it to feel sexy.

Yeah. There you go. Perfect.

That's good.

What would you have said?

I like what you said, actually, you know, I think sometimes people. We like to wear different things and sometimes eventized things.

Yeah.

We like to wear these kinds of outfits.

Yeah.

Back to the talk.

So my parents, because they left a lot on said.

Yeah. So their version of it. We were trapped in our minivan driving home from grandma's house after family dinner and my mom's Driving. She looks at me in the rearview mirror and she says, do you have any questions about, you know, sex?

Oh, boy.

You can ask.

Yeah.

You're just making it.

Yeah.

It was definitely whispered. There were some long, awkward pauses. And I remember in that moment just thinking, what she's really saying is, please, for the love of God, don't ask me anything. We.

Oh, my God. First ever. Oh, my God. First ever.

Oh, my God. I made you do a spit dick.

That's never happened.

That has not happened in six years on this show.

Oh, my God. I need to get some papers out. And there's fucking olive oil all over everything.

I'm jealous that you got that out of him. I've said some pretty funny stuff. Wow.

I feel really honest.

You really should. What happened?

I don't think spit takes her.

It was really icon. Like, it looked very classy.

A lot of fluid. Tell us the truth.

Was it just that it was too hot?

No. Her delivery of that was fucking. Wow.

Great start to 2024.

I feel like I need to get some sort of special award at the end of the day.

We need to get you a medal.

I'm telling you. I don't think. I thought those were real.

I didn't either.

Like.

Fuck. Anna's wearing my most expensive fucking. I shouldn't never have worn this up here. I should be trusted to have that.

It's weird that it kind of got on you because it was so projected.

Oh, yes. It went every.

You might need to check your sweater.

It's fucking all over the carpet. And it's oil. It's not just coffee.

It's the bummer.

Okay. Wow. Thank you for that.

So that's not.

You knew.

Please don't ask. I'm telling you so I knew.

Don't ask. We don't want to talk about it.

So that.

It really. Yeah, it really struck me in that moment of, like, why can't I ask? Cause I had a lot of questions. Of course, I was very curious. I was hearing things on the playground. I'd actually just made a bet with my guy friend Nick about how many holes a lady had down there.

Okay.

I was wrong. I lost a dollar. What did you think? I thought there were two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're counting the urethra as a hole.

Yes, that's a hole.

Sometimes it's a hole, sometimes it's not.

We've already discussed.

But hold on, Monica. It is closed until you're applying pressure on it. How about it's a hole with a latch.

It's Still a hole.

You're right.

Oh, my God. God.

Okay. Yeah, okay. Sorry.

So I did have a lot of questions I wanted to ask things. And yeah, I was very struck in that moment about, like, why can't we talk about this? I want to talk about it. Ooh.

This would be a great place to start with theories because. Yes. Why is it? There's obviously like a puritanical religious history to this from the anthropological point of view. We all lived in a one room house most of the time we've been here on planet Earth, so we were hearing fucking nonstop. It wasn't this thing that we recoiled from. That all changed when we went to multi room dwellings and you were removed from it. But then beyond that, I think for me, the reason the topic is so loaded that people don't really give credit to is our primary purpose on this planet is to reproduce. You're here to eat, stay alive and reproduce. And so any talk of sex, sex in general has the stakes of not being desirable, not reproducing, not being attractive, being excluded, not fulfilling this weird primary instinct we have that we never can put our fingers on. Like it's the highest stakes there are in a way.

Yeah. I mean, I think really for the US it traces back to Victorian times when we started getting really uncomfortable with sex and the attitude started changing a lot. We haven't really recovered.

Right.

We're slowly inching towards more openness and more comfort. But I think most people in this day and age just have generations of shame and trauma that we're really struggling to unpack.

Yeah. And if you even look at the art tradition of them going in and covering up famous paintings, the genitalia in the Vatican, like we had a whole period where everyone loved nudity and it was. They were just fine with it. And then we went and put fucking leaves.

Did something happen other than just that? Was the era, was there a impetus? Yeah.

I'm certainly not like a sexual historian, but Victorians just really had very different attitudes towards sex, where shame started to come into it. And a lot of stuff around masturbation, you know, there's really strongly anti masturbation things. And just this feeling that sex was something dangerous to do.

The degree that they started covering the legs of furniture with fabric, like even the legs of the furniture in the Victorian era was too risque.

Yeah. Sex became something to be feared.

Yes.

Maybe STIs were on the rise.

They've been with us for.

I know. But maybe there was a major influx or something that caused this fear well, there's curious.

Once you got removed from hearing your aunts and uncles and your parents having sex, and you were just in a bedroom down the hall and you didn't know, you had to start. Start filling in the blanks. And in the filling in the blanks became the proclivities and the perversions and the shame. Proclivities are born out of the ignorance and curiosity that no one's educating you on. I think that's part of it, yeah. Anywho, so you're at Brown and is the major itself everything you had wanted it to be? Did it answer all these questions? Did it create new ones?

I decided to go to Brown because at the time it was one of just a couple of schools that had any sort of undergraduate program in human sexuality. And it was very small. I was the only person in it.

No.

Oh, wow. My year, the year before and the year after, I was the only person. So it was really more of like a multidisciplinary. So basically I had an advisor and they said take 10 sex related courses. So I kind of got to design my own curriculum. I did classes in anthropology and English and psychology. And Brown also let you make up your own classes too, so you could come up with your own curriculum. Say, you know, I'm gonna read these books, I'm gonna write a paper on this type of thing.

Wow.

So I had a freedom, which I've always cherished. I had a lot of freedom to be able to pick and choose and mold my own education. But I definitely would have enjoyed having some friends along for the ride.

And at that stage when you were just getting your bachelor degree, did you have a fantasy of what you were going to do career wise? Did you already think you were going to go into therapy and counseling?

Well, I knew I wanted to do sex therapy in particular.

Well, you did. Right from the jump.

Right from the jump. I didn't know how I was going to do it, though, because sex therapy wasn't and still isn't regulated. You could actually call yourself a sex therapist tomorrow if you want. Do not. I'm not encouraging you.

Look at his face. I hate this.

Well, my glee is knowing how much it angers you. That's really what it is.

Don't people know by now never to say stuff like that?

Take it back.

They open up a podcast.

Please don't.

How about looking for space?

So I didn't know how to pursue it initially. I was thinking maybe I would be a doctor and kind of do it more from the medical Route. And that was actually what I had started telling people in high school that I wanted to do. Because the first few times you tell somebody is 17 year old, like, I'm gonna be a sex therapist, you do not get good reactions.

Really.

I was getting scholarships to go to school and, you know, at the scholarships award, oh, here's Vanessa. She's going off to Brown. What are you gonna study? What did we just give you money to go study? Sex therapy. The room goes silent. So I started saying, a doctor. Obviously that sounds classier and more professional. Yeah, that idea got into the back of my head of, okay, maybe I'll be a doctor, like an OB gyn and I'll go more of the medical route from it. So that was my initial approach. I did the dual and I did pre med at Brown.

Oh, my goodness.

And then I took the MCAT and did horribly and hated all my pre med classes and eventually realized this is not the path for me. So I thought, how about psychology instead?

Yeah. And I would only ask you this because I know on your podcast and in your book, you're pretty open. What is your own sexual life at this time? Because you do see people go into psychology because they have a lot of unanswered questions about themselves. They hope to get some tools maybe that they can address. How would you evaluate your own sex life?

At that point, I was still very curious about sex and interested in it. But the biggest thing that I was really struggling with was orgasming with a partner. I had learned how to orgasm on my own pretty easily. It felt pretty straightforward. It felt like this very fun, exciting, cool thing that I could do with my body, and I could not replicate that experience with any partners. And it was not only the orgasm itself, but. But sex with a partner was very performative for me. It was all about my male partner's pleasure, what he wanted to do. He was taking the lead. And so there was an internal struggle that I had for many years of this interest in sex and this fascination by it and wanting to pursue it for my career, to spend my life on it. But also this huge imposter syndrome of I have so many things within myself, I cannot find it within myself to initiate sex, to give feedback in the moment, to show a partner what my body likes and responds, to say, I.

Might like to bring my toy with me to the next session.

Yeah, anything like that. I really struggled with feeling like sex was something that I gave to a partner, did for a partner, rather than something that was for me that I.

Got to participate in that is so common for people.

Yeah. And I think especially for women.

Yeah. I was just gonna say, did you feel this frustration of going, this shouldn't be happening to me because I have the knowledge?

Yeah. I felt like a horrible imposter. You know, I'm studying this. I wanna help people with this. And I'm not really walking the walk myself. But that was because, you know, I was doing all this research and learning and exploration, but I wasn't learning any practical tools. I'm learning about Kinsey and Masters and Johnson, and that's great, but, like, what do I do in the moment with my partner when he's doing something that I don't like, rather than just faking it and saying, that's so great. Keep going?

Yes. Because there's the awkwardness.

It's so vulnerable. And you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

Yeah. Big thing that came up was I really wanted to make like we were clicking when I was having sex with somebody that I really liked. Like, I want it to feel like the chemistry is there. It's so easy and effortless between the two of us. And so I had this idea in my head that my pleasure and my body were more complicated or needier than my partners. And I felt very much alone in that, which I think most people have had the experience of feeling alone with some sort of sexual struggle that they've had.

Were you talking to your girlfriends about it at all?

A little bit.

But talks with my girlfriends were more kind of braggy. Like, oh, yeah, we had sex last night. Oh, it was so great. We didn't really get into the nitty gritty of, I'm really struggling to orgasm. Is anybody else? It was sort of this feeling of, we're talking about it openly and look at us evolved college girls. But at the same time, like, not being willing to be truly honest and vulnerable with each other about what was actually going on. The imposter syndrome that I felt made that so much harder for me. I was like, I can't. I can't admit to anybody that here I am, this little sex therapist in training, and I'm not orgasming with my partners. I'm not enjoying the sex that I'm having. Like, I can't admit that to anybody.

Had a guy said to you, how can I help you orgasm? Would you have even been able to answer that or been confident enough to express what would have helped?

I was never asked that.

You weren't.

I'm not sure honestly how I would have responded to It. I probably would not have been honest. I probably would have said, like, oh, what you're doing. Doing is great. Or like, you're always making me orgasm. But the final straw for me when I decided to stop faking orgasms and finally figure this all out was actually a partner who did the exact opposite. So we had been hooking up, and I had faked an orgasm. I had gotten really good at a great, convincing performance by that time, and he'd been using his hands on me, and he said, I can play you like a fiddle.

Oh, boy.

And I just. My stomach just churned in that moment. Like, just huge pit in my stomach. I thought, this is so gross. This guy is so proud of himself and this sleazy. Like, I can. What a weird thing to say to someone, right? I can play like a fiddle. And so that was the moment for me of like, I'm not doing this anymore.

In some bizarre way, we have some gratitude for this person.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have a lot of those experiences in life where it seems horrible in the moment, and then you look back and you're like, that terrible thing that happened to me was actually one of the best things that happened to me.

Yeah, yeah. As we'll discuss. There's so many tightropes in sex. It's so precarious. And so for a guy you're writing, there's the trope of the guy, like, immediately going, did you come? Which no woman wants that. And yet also, you want to make sure your partner's orgasm, and you want to help in any way you can to facilitate that. So it's like this very narrow lane you can be in to explore that where you're not the guy, just going, like, did you come for my ego? Versus I want to make this as good as it can be for you. How could I help? That's a tricky. I think, especially if you're a young dude. Zone to navigate.

I think sex is tricky for everyone. I think we have this tendency to think of male sexuality as simpler or easier than female sexuality, and it's really not. We're all struggling with what do we do in the moment. But, yeah, for a lot of men, they feel this pressure to be in the lead, to be taking control, to know what they're doing and to be able to, like, guide the whole interaction. And that's a lot of pressure.

Let's start with the. That the male orgasm's almost a given. The female is much more elusive. So a guy's pride and esteem. Okay, tell me why that's Yeah, I wanna hear it.

So there's nothing inherently more complicated about female orgasm than about male orgasm. What the problem is, is the way that we're all having sex. You know, male, female cisgender relationships. The type of sex that we're having heavily prioritizes male pleasure, penetration.

Right, right, right.

Most male female couples, we use sex and intercourse. Like, when we have sex, we're having.

Intercourse to the degree that in the 80s, people would ask, like, how are two lesbians having sex?

Exactly. I mean, even think of the bases metaphor.

Exactly.

You know, the home run.

Well, and it's the test of virginity.

It's the thing. Right. So if we look at intercourse, though, a man is getting stimulation of the most sensitive part of his body, his clitoris.

Yeah.

Okay. So you know about this, which is great.

Well, tell everyone.

Yeah, most people don't know fetuses in the womb. We all start off like, as the same little blob. And when we are differentiating into we're gonna born a man or born a woman, the tissues start to differentiate around 8 to 11 weeks. And the exact same tissues that make a penis make a clitoris. So it's like having a ball of clay. I can mold it into a mug or I can mold it into a bowl. It's a different shape, but it's the same ball of clay that I'm starting with. So the clitoris and the penis are biological equivalents. They're called homologous structures, and they both are the pleasure centers of their respective genders. So if we go to intercourse like a man's getting stimulation of his penis and a woman is getting stimulation in.

Her vagina, let's add there too. So, yes, all fetuses are female until mom senses testosterone. The ovaries are dropping down through the body and becoming testes. And where they drop down through and come is where your vagina is. And then the clitoris grows into a penis. And so if you can imagine if you're a guy right now removing your balls and starting to put your fingers inside that hole, how stimulating you think that might be? Probably not entirely stimulating.

Exactly. So the clitoris has anywhere from 8 to 10,000 nerve endings in it. The penis has 2 to 3,000. The vagina. There's not really even an accurate scientific tally of how many nerve endings are there. But it's not a particularly sensitive part of our bodies.

You're pass a baby through there.

Yeah. I mean, the funny comparison that I always like to make is that intercourse for a woman is like Playing with a man's balls, sure, it might feel good, it can feel pleasurable, it can feel fun to do with a partner. But for the vast majority of men, it's nowhere near enough stimulation to lead to orgasm. And we don't make men feel bad about that. Right. There's not some alternate unit universe where we're like, you know, God, the penis, it's so complicated. Why do I have to touch that? Why can't you get the orgasm from the balls instead? Right.

So I'm in 100 agreement with you that biologically, neither is predisposed to have an orgasm easier in the current sex teenagers are having with the lack of education and the lack of instruction and lack of understanding of the clitoris, all of that, the result of which is females are having far fewer orgasms than men are.

Yes.

And so in that world, which is the reality of the teenage boy, if a woman orgasms, that's the blue ribbon. Like, that's the thing you have to do, or you were bad, even though you don't understand how to make that happen because you've watched porn, which is not realistic. So I'm just saying, when we're talking about different pressures, like, I think for the boy, the pressure is like, oh, my God, I gotta figure out how to get this girl. I don't know what the hell to do, you know?

Yeah, we're in agreement on that. It's not that biologically anything's different or more complicated than our bodies. Like people of all genders, we just need stimulation of the part of our body that's the most sensitive. And it's not an extremely difficult thing to do to invite the clitoris along to the party. The same way that the penis is always invited to the party, always at the party. But, yeah, the way that most male female couplings are having sex these days, there's very little in it for the woman and everything in it for the man. And so many of us women don't have that information or that knowledge. So most women feel like something is horribly wrong with them. I mean, it's one of the number one questions that I get from our community, like, what's wrong with me? I don't enjoy sex. I'm never having orgasms. It barely even feels good. I'm broken in some sort of way, but it's just a basic lack of information about what our bodies need to experience pleasure.

Okay, so now we're like, perfectly into the beginning, I think, of the book which is Breaking the Fairy Tale, Confronting the Fairy Tale and so there's a bunch of pretty, pretty well worn and common things you'll see in your practice. And they're broken up into some categories that I think everyone will kind of relate to. But first and foremost, back to the growing up in multi room homes. The only time we've seen anyone have sex is in a film or tv. Unless you got invited to an orgy at a young age, like, I don't know where one would see it. Right, so tell us what we see and what we expect.

Yeah, we see that same scene over and over again on TV and in the movies, it's the characters just look at each other across from the room and it's on. And they're dashing off into the bedroom. It's hot and passionate and wild. The clothes are flying off and we really only see a couple of seconds of rolling around in what we assume is intercourse. And then both heads are flopping back onto the pillow. Everybody is satisfied and happy.

You say like in the book, you say like three pumps of missionary and both people are totally satiated.

So I mean, some of it is even just a logistical challenge for TV and the movies. There's a limited amount of time that you have. You're not gonna show an entire 30 or 45 minute interaction or all the little pieces of it. So we see this condensed version of it. But as viewers, if that's the only thing we're ever seeing rationally in our heads, we can think, okay, they're taking some license with the way they're filming it. But when we see it over and over and over and over again, it just gets drilled into your head of that's how it's supposed to be. Spontaneously passionate, completely effortless, zero communication. Requ. Heavy emphasis on intercourse and simultaneous orgasm.

Yeah, sounds great. Sounds like how it should be. You're right though, because they're showing other things in the movies and even in a car chase, they still gotta shift the gears and hit the brakes and hit the gas. It's not like they deviate entirely in all the other areas, even when it's romanticized. But that one, yeah, is a real departure from what needs to happen.

So as a sex therapist, I think the things that frustrate me the most are, are the feeling of effortlessness. Most people feel like sex should be absolutely effortless, that we shouldn't have to try or put effort into it in any sort of way. And then also the lack of communication, that my partner should just be able to read my mind. They should know my body better than I even know my own body and just magically do all those things that I need, and I'm magically doing all the things that they need. So we're magically having the orgasm in the exact same moment. So those two things in particular are really harmful when we internalize them.

And then also. Oh, sorry.

No. I just wanted to back up for just two seconds about the actual profession of sex therapist. So is that a couple comes in and is having trouble connecting or a person is. What is sex therapy?

Sex therapy is just helping people create the sex lives that they want to have. Okay.

Yeah.

That's the way that the simplified version that I look at it. So I would see people, you know, individually, I would see couples, and it would be anything from our relationship is about to break up because we're not connecting in the bedroom to somebody just saying, you know, like, I feel like I don't really know who I am sexually, and I kind of want to explore that. So all sorts of different goals and questions and concerns, but all wrapped up in the idea of, like, understanding and having the kind of sex that we want to be having.

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I just don't know a couple. Truly, I don't know a couple that's been Together for at least a year. Who doesn't have an issue with sex? I don't know one.

Every couple does.

Yeah. And that's a perfect other thing that's really required at the very beginning, which is your chemistry. What happens chemically when you meet somebody, when there's novelty in something new, that you get dopamine and you get serotonin and you get all these incredible chemicals that are encouraging you to fuck non stop and have a baby.

Yes.

And then those are replaced with really nice oxytocin and other here and now chemicals that make you feel bonded for life and mace.

Exactly.

No matter who you are or how horny you are or how invested you are, you too are going to go through this cycle of chemistry. It's completely unavoidable.

It's so important to normalize that because physiologically our bodies are incapable of sustaining that kind of intensity of emotion. And sometimes I even tell people, like, imagine what life would look like if you were still as obsessed with your partner as you were at the very beginning. Like, it is fun at the beginning, undeniably fun and exciting, but you're neglecting.

Your work and your friendships. You're not cleaning your house.

Exactly. To be in that, you know, 15, 20 years later, your life would be crazy. The other aspect of it that I think we forget a lot is that we were actually putting a tremendous amount of effort in at the beginning of a relationship. We think of it again, so effortless, this myth of effortlessness. But when I think back to, you know, when I started dating my husband Xander, those dates that we went on, I was spending days thinking about, okay, Friday we have the date. It's four days away, it's three days away, it's two days away. It's mental energy in anticipation, Dopamine anticipation. I'm canceling plans for other things. I'm spending hours picking out what outfit am I gonna wear and trying things.

You're eating differently all week.

Yeah, I'm putting on the lingerie, I'm going to the gym. I'm playing like all my pump up jams before the date. Like getting myself excited. Like there was so much effort going into it. So it's not that we just had this spontaneous, perfect connection. I was putting a lot of energy and he was putting a lot of energy on his end to create that connection.

Yes. But in that period of time, it's effortless. It's simply what you want to do.

The effort is fun.

Initiating all of that is effortless. The inertia is there. As opposed to later, when you don't have those chemicals. All that work has to be conscious and thoughtful and mindful and intentional. But it just happens when you meet somebody. It's not like you were telling yourself, get excited for Friday.

I didn't have to tell myself, but I was using a lot of energy and time and making decisions. And I think that we can change our attitudes about the effort as well. We get into relationships, and then the effort feels heavy and hard and boring. But I think we can recapture some of that early feeling of, I enjoy putting effort in. Effort is what makes life meaningful. We put effort into the things that we care about, and we see that effort as a good thing. A lot of parenting examples come up. You know, if your kid has a soccer game on Tuesday, and maybe you wanted to do something different on Tuesday, but the effort that you put in to show up for your kid, to be there, to have the snacks, that effort feels powerful to you. It feels like a sign of love, like, I'm doing this for you because I care about you and I want to show up for you in this way. But it's really only with sex that we start to see effort as a bad thing.

Well, as evidence in some cases that we're not with the right person, that we're broken or they're broken, or something's broken and probably irreparable. And I'm seeing other people, they seem to be having more sex, and I'm seeing tv, and then this is just done.

Yeah.

And people regularly are entering your office in that spot. And you talk about stress, too. Stress being a very, I don't know, horniness killer. What would we call it?

The number one libido killer. And this is the part where people always roll their eyes. Cause we're all sick of hearing about stress. We know, like, stress is bad for us. We're not supposed to be feeling it. We need to decrease the stress in our lives. But I do think it's really important for people to recognize that stress has a huge impact on libido. And it does go back to our caveman days, too. Stress was a way to help the body survive, to figure out, am I staying and fighting this woolly mammoth that's coming at me, or am I running away? And so when we're feeling stress, all of our body's resources go into survival and to figuring out what we're gonna do in those moments. And when you're literally in a life or death moment, having an erection or being wet is not a necessary Function. It's gonna. If anything I write in the book, you know, having an erection is gonna slow you down as you're a caveman running away from the woolly mammoth. So all of the resources get redirected and there's just no way to be really turned on and horny all the time when you're under extreme amount of stress.

Although, what about in this situation? This is something I habitually do. So I'm an addict. My brain is great at figuring out external things that can alleviate my suffering. So when I'm super stressed, I do get enormous bouts of horniness because I see it as relief. The brain is going, relief's over here if you want it.

Yeah.

There are some people who associate sex with stress relief. And those people typically have a pattern of sex being something that's enjoyable and pleasurable. So there's a trust that you have in it of this is going to work, versus maybe let's look at a woman who's not getting a lot out of the sex, feeling disconnected from her partner. She doesn't have that same amount of trust that, oh, this is gonna feel good for me. It is going to get me out of my head.

Yeah. That's interesting. So I wonder what order I want to go in here. I just wrote down a lot of things that I liked reading. I just wanna read one of them. Hearing the word no from our partner, especially when it comes to sex, typically brings up enormous amounts of shame. Rejection feels so terrible that most of us will go to great lengths to avoid it. If your partner turns you down, your instinct is likely to stop initiating. But if no one is initiating, what do you think is going to happen to your sex life? But, yeah, that weird, immediate sense of shame. It's a different type of rejection.

It is.

It's so deep and primal.

It feels like the longer you are in a relationship, the closer you are with your partner, the more it hurts to be turned down for sex. It's been my own personal experience too. Like I was saying earlier, initiating sex was something that I struggled with personally, especially as a woman. It felt like something I wasn't allowed to do. And I'm walking that fine line as a woman of, well, I don't want to be the ice queen and too closed off, but I also don't want to be a slut and too forward. And so it felt like this dangerous thing to do. And once I finally did work up the courage to start doing it, then it's this horrible wave of shame that comes crashing over you. When you hear a no from your.

Partner, let's dig deeper on the shame things pop into. My one is like, well, I'm not attractive. That's unnecessarily shame inducing. But there's all of us, as kids were starting to feel sexual, and that was confusing. And for me, masturbating and feeling shame, even though I wasn't in a religious household and my mother was saying things like, you just heard. There's no reason for me to, but I was trying to quit it all the time. So does it bring you back to that thing like, I'm a perverse little weirdo, or is it just the rejection of I'm not attractive, or is it all things? What do you think that shame is?

I think it's those two main. So it does bring up just that deep shame around sex that all of us have. By initiating sex, it's like you are acknowledging that sex is a thing and you want to be having it. And if you hear a no from it, it just brings up all of those primal feelings of, oh, this is this bad thing that I'm not supposed to want it, and it's wrong and it's shameful and it's sinful and all the things. And it also brings up feelings of inadequacy. Most of us take it extremely personally. And it's very interesting. As a therapist, you know, work with couples, I can see the reasons that people turn their partner down for sex are almost never personal.

Really.

They're more situational, or they're more about how the person is feeling. It's so rare that someone says, I don't want to have sex with you because you don't look good right now. You know, we're like, I'm not attracted to you anymore. But when we hear that no, we go to these really dark places inside of ourselves of, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not thin enough, I'm not sexy enough, I'm not desirable enough. The spark is gone. My partner's interested in other people. Like, we take it extremely, extremely personally.

You're so right. And we love couples therapy. Do you watch that with Orna?

Yes.

Oh, my God, I fucking love it.

Obsessed with it.

And it is very revealing. Every single couple that enters there. The standard is one wants to be having more sex than the other does. Like, there's no two people that seem to be wanting to have the same amount of sex.

I mean, that would be crazy, though. It's so normal. I don't even like to call it mismatched sex drives. Because every couple has mismatched sex drives, you're never going to find a partner who wants sex the exact same time you want sex every single time. The exact same type of sex that you want to have in that moment. It's just not realistic. So most of us get so up in our heads about, oh, are we mismatched? Are we, you know, different sex drives? What's the problem here? But I think it's important for couples to realize that's normal, there's nothing wrong. Instead, let's use our attention and energy to figure out how do we need to work together as a team to create the space for us to connect.

What also comes out in every single one of those is that when they start exploring that, almost without exception, the person that rejected the other person, they themselves don't feel attractive. It actually isn't their partner. I think that's so mind blowing. If you acknowledge that not only is it not about you, it's about them, but you're having all this cognitive dissonance, which is like, well, I'm pursuing you, so obviously you're hot and sexy, so that couldn't possibly be what you're experiencing right now. But it is.

There's so many wild dynamics that come up around it. And one of the things that came up for me was there were times where Xander would initiate sex with. And my gut instinct reaction is almost always a no. And that comes from the deep shame place inside of me and feeling like, as a woman, I'm trying to navigate that line of not too available. But there's always this feeling of like, I'm not supposed to. We've been married for 12 years. You know, by all definitions, I'm putting this in air quotes, like I'm doing it the right way, but there's still that feeling that comes up of like, I'm not supposed to.

Right? You were about to say something and I cut yours.

No, no, no.

I was just.

Because I know, as we have just said, everyone listening who's in a partnership is experiencing this. And I know some personal cases currently that would love to hear. If a couple comes in and says, this person really doesn't want to have sex. I really do a lot, and I feel rejected or whatever, but also, I want to have sex. How will I get pleasure if my partner isn't giving it to me? What would you go?

So she pulls out her Rolodex of divorce attorneys and says, I think you'll pair nicely with.

I think it's common.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the first place that I start is helping a couple explore what does each person need to feel open to sex. A lot of it is just figuring out what makes me feel excited, what creates the space for me. And then if there really is an issue with low libido, that's a thing that comes up a lot. There are really three main causes of low libido that actually really aren't about the libido. Libido is not the problem that most of us think it is. So it's a lack of emotional connection, it's a lack of pleasure, and it's also sexual pain and agriculture.

30%.

Yes. I'm so glad you know that. Stat from your book. Okay, from you.

Yeah.

30% of women experienced pain the last time they had sexual pain.

The solutions are use lubrication, always 15 minutes of warmup, stop if it's hurting so you don't start associating. There's two more I've forgotten, but.

Well, and see a pelvic floor specialist or a pelvic pain specialist if you're having any sort of pain that those simple steps can't address. So that's a good low hanging fruit one to knock out. And then that leaves us with the connection and the pleasure. And pleasure really is the biggest one.

You give your clients really good little homework. So she'll say for the next three weeks, just log when the environment or the context or the situation did make you over open for sex, what was happening, what happened before that? Know what gets you in the mood. Don't just wait for the mood to hit you. Be aware of what things got you in the mood. Also, conversely, be aware of the things that take you out of the mood. Right. Know what these things are to avoid.

Yeah. So the book Sex Talks, you know, a lot of it. I thought back to that younger version of myself who was struggling so much with her own sex life and really struggling to find practical tools and solutions. So I really wanted to make the book very practical and, and give people specific things to do, specific questions to ask themselves, exercises to try out. So starting to pay more attention to what sorts of things get me into the mood and pull me out of the mood. And also, like, what kinds of experiences am I looking to have when I want to have sex? What is it that I'm looking to experience on my own and with my partner?

Right. Know that. Take a minute and try to articulate that.

We all feel this pressure to have an incredible sex life and you know, have it so spicy with our partner. But so few of us have taken the time to actually feel into. What does great sex mean for me? What is the kind of experience that I'm looking to have when I've just finished having really great sex? What am I thinking in that moment? Like, oh, that was so good. Because xyz, don't you think a common.

Thing for people is sex brings a lot of validation? I think. Do you think so?

Say more.

Well, I feel like I can speak on that. Okay, go ahead. Yeah.

I can only speak for me. There's this thing you want. You're resistively drawn to it. You can't really get it. And if you get it, it's the ultimate sign that someone likes you because they're not supposed to give it to you. This is the paradigm I grew up in. So it becomes unavoidably the ultimate signal that someone really likes you or maybe loves you or cares about you. That is the pinnacle of the validations. So without that, this thing you've grown up as being the symbol of validation, it can be very powerful, at least.

Validating that you're attractive. Whether or not that's accurate or not, that is something that sex can and often does make people feel. I know a couple, that one of the partners, I think, gets a ton of validation out of sex. So then when this person entered a safe, good relationship, it was harder for that person to have sex and find it pleasurable because the validation's there.

Oh, the validation can make it really difficult on the other end of things. Like when you're the partner of someone and you can feel that they're initiating and what they're really looking for in that moment is for you to validate them. That makes sex take on a totally different vibe and tone. It's not like you're inviting me to share an experience with you and experience, like pleasure and connection and joy and freedom and all these things. It's like you're wanting me to validate you totally with my body.

Do you think those are binary, though? Either you're seeking validation or you're seeking to enjoy a beautifully shared, connected.

Both kings can be true at the same time. Absolutely. But I think when you can feel that intensity of your partner's desire to be validated, it can make it feel more complicated in the moment.

Right. Or that you're basically just servicing that.

But, I mean, the person who's seeking validation no longer is as interested in sex because there's nothing to seek.

They have the validation.

They have the validation because they have.

This partnership that's full of validation. So sex falls away, do the thing it used to do.

That can happen too. It can get really, really tricky. And then it can come around on the other end of it as well, where then it becomes sort of this high stakes. Well, I don't ever want somebody to say no to me because then what happened to that validation?

So back to the fairy tale. Fairy tale. You ask people to make a list exactly what they think they're supposed to be doing in the bedroom, and to actually take a look at that and ask if those are realistic and reasonable expectations.

I think there's something very powerful that happens when we take all these deep, dark expectations that we've just been holding within ourselves and bring them out into the light and really examine them and ask ourselves, like, yeah, is this a reasonable thing for me to expect of myself? So sometimes just that act of externalizing it can help us realize, ooh, that's not very reasonable. So one of the examples that I give in sex talks is a client that I had worked with who felt like he was supposed to get hard instantaneously with zero stimulation from his partner. And once he started talking about that out loud, realized, okay, yeah, maybe that's not the greatest expectation to have of myself.

Yeah, a little unrealistic. Well, that feeds into my. I think my favorite thing I read in there. But first I wanna say. Cause I just love that you said this. So you have a good friend that you started talking about her sex life with her husband. They're happily married on all accounts. They have kids, they have a great life together. They're not having sex much. This is weighing on her. And she's now beating herself up for having the feelings. And you wrote, okay, I'm anxious or frustrated or sad. And that's all right. I don't need to criticize myself about it too. The best way to navigate your feelings is to simply notice them and leave them be. What we resist persists. When we accept our own emotions and experiences, they actually dissipate much faster. So I think this is so, so important. I experienced this. I have more discomfort in suffering from the disappointment of having the original feeling I had than I have from the feeling. I'm so let down with myself. I'm so disappointed in myself.

The meta feelings. Yeah. Some of my favorite feedback that we got about sex talks is people said, this is not just a book about how to talk about sex with your partner. It's a communication book. And it's a general feelings book of, like, Just learning how to be with my own experiences and be with my own emotions. So that's a classic therapist thing that we say all the time. You know, what we resist, persists, or the only way out is through. But it's something that so few of us have put into practice of just sitting with our feelings and allowing them to be. So what you're talking about are meta emotions. It's our feelings about our feelings.

That's almost all I have, to be honest. The second I have this feeling, I go straight into the meta feelings, into the whole.

So the key for you and for all of us is just to try sitting with those emotions to name them as well. Cause when we can put a name to it, that helps it dissipate a lot faster. When I'm feeling this, sometimes I'll just sit with myself and say, okay, okay. I'm feeling a lot of anxiety right now. That's okay. I can notice it. I can sit with it. I don't need to do anything about it. I'm just here with it. And there's been some really interesting research that shows that when we can do that, a lot of feelings will dissipate in about 90 seconds.

Wow.

Which is wild, right?

Because most people, when they're like, I'm anxious. Why am I so anxious? Why am I always so anxious? When am I ever not gonna be? What is the fucking problem? You're just off to the races.

Yeah. So I like to think about my feelings. I often think of them as, like, little parts of myself. And sometimes I'll even picture myself at different ages, too, and just imagine being with that part of myself. Like, okay, I see you. You're there. A lot of it's validation. Going back to this theme, feelings want acknowledgement and validations. Your feelings want you to just say to them, you exist. I see you there, and you're allowed to be here.

We get in male mode. It's like, I gotta fix this. Get rid of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The classic plan syndrome. I need to understand it. I need to fix it.

I need to destroy it. Okay, this one was awesome. Me versus we. So these two different types of, I guess, arousal. What would we say? Spontaneous type and the responsive type?

Desire. Yeah. Emily Nagoski gets a lot of credit for really breaking all this research down in an easy, digestible way.

Yeah. So tell people about the two different types of desire. I think it would alleviate a lot of the guilt.

This is one of the biggest pieces of information that people say changes, changes their life. So desire and Arousal are actually two different things. We tend to use those words interchangeably, and we mean them as, like, just getting turned on or being horny. But desire is something that happens in our head. It's the thought of, like, oh, sex sounds good. It sounds interesting to me right now. I would like to have it. Where is my partner? And then arousal is a physical response that we have in our bodies, Our bodies getting ready for sex, preparing for it. So could be things like getting an erection, getting wet, your heart rate starting to increase. And so these two things happen separately from each other. And your desire type, your sex drive type, it really boils down to which one you feel first. Do you feel that mental desire or that physical arousal? So spontaneous desire is when we feel the mental desire first and then the physical arousal follows. And that's the only type of desire that you ever see on TV and in the movies. It's that, ah, out of nowhere, I'm all of a sudden turned on. I make the eye contact with my partner. We're running off into the bedroom. So most of us think that's how it's supposed to work for us. But about half of people, and of this group, the majority are women.

I was gonna say this is very gendered.

It is very gendered. Most women are responsive types, which is that we feel the physical arousal first and then the mental desire follows after that. So the classic sign that you are a responsive type is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even the end of sex, and you catch yourself thinking, that was really fun. Why don't I ever seem to want this? That is a responsive reaction.

I love the list of it. I wish I had written down the whole list, but it's like you don't think about sex very often.

You don't. Yeah. So if you go up to a responsive person and ask them, do you want to have sex? 99 times out of 100 it's gonna be no, because their body hasn't been aroused first. Their head is not gonna be interested in sex until their body's aroused. So if you're just going right for their head and asking them that question, it's gonna be a no. So this kind of leads us into initia. We need to learn different ways of initiating because you're just going to get a no. If you're asking a responsive person, you're probably going to identify as, I have low desire or even no desire. It might feel like the circumstances have to be, like, just right for you to be open to It.

This is why it's easy to feel defeated by the whole thing. Because I'm talking with all my other male friends. We're mostly all tracking to be spontaneous types, right? As you say in the list. You're at work, in a board meeting, and you just start thinking about fucking. Like, oh, yeah, that'd be great. And then we could talk over. And so you start believing. Well, that's what's missing from the. And that must be unfixable, because that's just how I'm wired. And they're not even thinking about sex. They don't even care about. They're not planning some crazy sex capade. So how on earth would we meet in the middle on this? But I think it's a big relief to just go like both equally powerful, just different starters.

It's a huge relief. Most people have no idea that this exists. Most women tell me that they feel really broken and ashamed that they never seem to want sex. It always just feels like this huge source of tension between them and their partner. So just being able to recognize you're normal, there's nothing wrong with you, you're not broken in any sort of way. It's not a worse type of desire because people will often say like, okay, but spontaneous just sounds better. Right? But the challenge with spontaneous desire types is that your body might not always go along with what your head's wanting so they can experience more performance issues. And then that brings up a. An entirely different set of shameful thoughts. I'm turned on. I wanna have sex. What's happening with my body? Why is my body not coming along? So there are joys and challenges of each type. But being able to start with this recognition of there are two. Nobody's broken. Nothing's wrong with anybody. It's just figuring out, okay, what do each of our types need to feel open to sex?

Yes. A diesel engine's not broken because it can't accept gasoline. And a gas engine isn't broken cause it can't accept diesel. They both are engines that work as long as you put the right in them.

Great metaphor.

I think that's comforting. Anytime you need an automotive metaphor, please wish you were drinking so you could have done a spit take.

Is responsive desire. Okay, this gets a little tricky though, because if you're in a partnership, are you saying the physicality starts first? So then if your brain doesn't want to go there, how does the physical ever start?

Yeah.

No, the male question.

Yeah, that's a hard thing. Because if someone just starts Touching that feels bad or wrong.

That's the bristle reaction we'll get to.

Oh, yes. Okay. So I like to think of initiation with responsive desire as being two phases. So we want to first give that person some sort of physical contact. So what you're doing in that moment is you're not thinking about, do I want to have sex? Yes or no? It's, am I open to having some physical contact with my partner and something that feels very good to you, very tame for you. So for a lot of people, it's simple. Like, can we get in bed and cuddle together? Can you give me a massage? And a massage that's actually a massage, not a, like, 20 seconds. And then I'm sliding my hands in places. Is it maybe kissing? Is it just holding each other?

This is orna advice. She's like, don't try to fuck. Just go home and commit to snuggling.

Exactly. So if you really create the space and the energy behind this is important, you can tell if your partner's like, okay, let me give you your 10 seconds of, you know, perfunctory back rub. Are you turned on yet? Are you turned on yet? So you really have to be willing. I just want to have some skin connection with you. I just want to be in the moment with you. And then at that point, then it's like, okay, are we open to going further with this? And there has to be a true and genuine acceptance of a yes or a no.

And you and Xander have a great hack for this, because I do think this happens nonstop with couples as well. It's like the guy reaches over in bed and does anything, touches her hair, does whatever he does. And immediately, and rightly so, the woman's like, oh, Jesus. Like, there's no mystery to anything that's going on. Is, like, you have a policy. You make out every night before bed.

Yes. Oh, we do.

I love this. And this seems like such a hack because, like, sometimes it's gonna happen, sometimes it's not. But you don't have this muscle memory association with, every time I'm touchy, wants to fuck, you're pushing through that by having a routine.

We started doing that a few years ago because I noticed a couple of things. One, I noticed that we weren't making out very often anymore. At the beginning of our relationship, we would make out so much, and I love that. I think most people, we have this really fun. It brings us back to, like, being teenagers when making out was the best thing in the world.

It's the Cutest, dumbest things primates do. What are we doing? We're smashing our mouths together.

We were in this relationship. We were a decade into it. It's like, I don't remember the last time we made out just for the sake of making out. Like, we make out when we're having sex or we're right about to have sex, but there's no making out just for that. So that thing came up. And then I also noticed that I, I had become like most people, hyper attuned to when he was initiating. Like, I could tell the moment that his eyes got that little look.

You probably even experienced something biochemically before you even saw anything. You probably smelt something you don't know you smelled.

There was like a smallest little touch. I know what you're up to, you rascal. Yeah. And so I wanted to break that association. And it goes back to what I was saying earlier too, about that knee jerk reaction that comes up in me. Like, no, we're not supposed to. So we came up with this idea to start making out every single night and to break the association that we had created that we only made out as a lead up to sex or during sex. Like, bring back that enjoyment of just kissing for the sake of kissing and having this, like, super smell. I really recommend everybody try it. It's become this very sweet ritual that we have every night.

And like, what about if you're fighting? That's also a good way to get you out of your fight if you've committed.

What if you're like, fuck, we gotta get this kissing over with.

We don't do it for fighting. And if one of us is sick, we don't do it. But otherwise, otherwise we do. If we're really tired. Sometimes it's literally 10 seconds. But it just, it feels like a sweet ritual to have with each other. And it's been really fun to just have those little moments of making out some connection with each other.

Well, let's talk about the bristle reaction, because that's adjacent to that. I think a lot of people will relate to this.

The bristle reaction is that feeling that you get when your partner reaches out to touch you and you just feel your whole body tense up and recoil. And it can feel shockingly strong sometimes to even the most simple touch. Your partner's just trying to, like, give you a little PO on the shoulder or a hug or something, and you feel yourself recoil. And so there are a number of different causes that can lead to it. So one is bad initiation people who Aren't being very direct with initiation. So the quote that you read earlier, we're so afraid of rejection that a lot of us have learned to do this dance around initiation. We're just trying to subtly do it or we do it in a joking way. The classic example is men coming up behind a woman and, like, honking her boobs.

Tune in Tokyo.

So many men try this. We have polled our audience, and so for. And there's, like, 1% of women who do enjoy it, but vast majority of women do.

You just got to find that woman.

Find that one woman.

All men have to find the two women.

A puce bandana hanging out of your back pocket if you're that 1%, so they can find you.

Monica, would it work for you as an initiation?

No. But it depends. I guess if I'm in, like, a super playful mood, maybe. But if I'm, like, doing the. I know, I know from all my friends who have husbands, they seem to always do it when they're doing the dishes.

Sure. Well, your guards down, you're trapped.

Yeah. The worst time possible. Exactly.

Don't do it, then. So we do it in these roundabout ways or these jokey ways because it gives us plausible deniability if you get mad. Oh, I wasn't trying to. I was just messing around. Right. But we get this hypersensitivity, like I had developed of. You weren't just kidding or, like, no, no, no. I see it in your eyes. I smell it in the air. I feel it. I'm on guard. And then it's also the discomfort that we have in saying no to our partner. So we try to catch it at the earliest possible moment. Like, I don't want to get into. We're already making out and clothes are starting to. And I have to say, hold on. I don't. I don't want to do this. So we learn to, like, backtrack. I'm so aware of the exact moment that you're starting to think about it. So I can say no to you right then. And it can also be just straight up touching you in ways that you don't like as well. Like the boob. Honk.

That's extreme. Yeah, that's the extreme version. But what compounds this greatly? And. Yeah, I forget what the number is. Like 64% from the Gottman Institute. People's marriages get worse when they have kids. I mean, that's just kind of the standard. So for the mom. The mom has been experiencing probably so much touch, she has no fucking personal space. And now here Comes Gorilla Mike for a little Hong Kong. She's like, stop pulling on me, everybody.

Yeah. So it feels like touch. That's not for her. And that's another thing that comes up as well, is like, you're touching my body for you. You're wanting something from me. And with a parent, you know, I've been touched all day long. I've had people needing things from me all day long. Here is yet another creature with more needs, with more demands of my body. It all gets wrapped up in this huge shutdown reaction that we have.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by quints. Winter in LA is weird. It'll be 75 degrees one day, then suddenly you need an actual coat. I've been rotating through the same three jackets for years and honestly, they're looking rough. So I finally upgrade my winter wardrobe with quince, and the difference is wild. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters are ridiculously soft. Like, I didn't know cashmere could feel this good without costing a mortgage payment. And their wool coats and Italian leather outerwear, they're the kind of pieces that actually last.

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How do you define the difference between vulnerability and neediness?

This is very, very tiny line between the two.

Yeah, I agree with you.

So I think vulnerability in general is sharing with somebody your character defects or your fears or your shortcomings. I think neediness is, I need you to fix me, but our language is incomplete. The difference between those two things, although I can say it that way in practice and in talking and in touching and in all these things, it's not precise. And I think the dance that I see a lot of my male friends where I wanna go, like, you gotta pull back a bit. I think that's the hardest dance for a spontaneous person with a partner who is a responsive person.

I agree with you. And I think it is a particular challenge for men who are getting more and more messages these days that, like, we want men to be vulnerable and open and share, which is something that historically has been incredibly dangerous for men to do that you've been given so many messages of, don't do that. So now there's this dance that's such a good word for. That men are trying to do of like, I want to do this, but I don't have a lot of practice at it. It's always felt scary and dangerous. I don't know how to do it. I think that the difference between vulnerability and neediness is what you're describing. For me, vulnerability feels like I'm sharing with you challenges that are coming up for me. Things that are within me. I'm sharing them with you because I want you to see me. Whereas neediness, again, it's not a therapeutic term. But neediness does feel like I am needing you to come help fix me.

Right.

So it's not just I'm showing you, it's a. Yeah.

Even if we take a real example. So if you were to say we're not having sex very often, and I recognize that, I get so much of my validation for that. And then I'm feeling completely unattractive and I think I must be doing something that is not appealing to you. And I'm filling in all these blanks. And I've created the story and it's all based on this thing I've decided. So that seems like all above board and fine. But that's also saying, I need you to give me this. Because this, this is how I'm wired. So that's fucking hard.

It is.

And that's what we pick up on as partners as well, is like, is it that you're inviting me to share an experience with you or are you needing me to take care of you in a certain sort of way?

Again, that feels binary. How about I need the shared loving experience where we're staring in each other's eyes and we're having this bond. I need that for my own self esteem. That's how it's happened. That's how it shook out. I'm working on it, but that's where we're at.

So I think that challenge for you is finding other ways to get that experience. If sex is the only way, that puts a lot of pressure on sex.

On sex.

So are there other ways that you can get those needs met with your partner?

And there totally are. I'm just saying, like, the vulnerability version is very, very close and almost identical to the needy version. It is like grains of sand between your partner going like, fucking A, I have a third child.

Yeah, it is. I have such a practical mind. I'm always wanting to give people, like, practical tools and strategies. And there's also a part of me that just holds onto all the nuances and complexities of how sex shows up in our lives. And this is a primary example of one.

I recognize what you're saying about, I don't want to be around just to fix you or validate you or give you self esteem. You need to give yourself self esteem. Great. I know that's the response. So I would just not initiate at all. The risk of being needy and unattractive, I'm going to side with. I'll just wait until you're interested and then. Then the other part of your brain starts going, well, do I want to live on planet Earth without having sex? Is that what I want for the rest of my life? You know, you go down the dark road of, well, then I give up. And then again, you confront that and you go, well, now you're being a baby and you're doing this, and you gotta now validate yourself and have your own things. And, you know, but it's very complex.

There's so many people in that position. But I think what you're actually looking, looking for is that deep intimacy. That's the actual thing you want.

You want the thing that separates you from being friends.

Right. But there could be other things that give you that deep intimacy. Plus, maybe, I guess this is a good hack of touching not for sex. And seeing where that. That's really good hack.

I think, weirdly for me, the answer in general is not put that on their plate. Be mindful. Make my own list, but not be resentful. Not be resentful. Resentful, yeah. Yes. The mature, grown up, adult thing would be like, when was she in the mood last? What was happening? How can I recreate that? How can I touch all the time without that expectation? Proactively do a bunch of things so I don't even need to have that conversation. That's probably the more productive approach.

You have to sit with both. When we have intimacy with a person, we also have to acknowledge we're never gonna be able to get the exact kind of intimacy that we want perfectly and consistently. And that's such a horrible pain to feel. And also an important one for us to feel as well, particularly for men. It can be challenging because you've been taught that the only ways that you're allowed to experience connection and intimacy with a person is through sex. Now we're talking more about vulnerability, but really the deep messages are like, don't be vulnerable. Don't show emotion. Be strong and capable, and all the things. And so for many men, all. All of their need for connection, for love, for validation, it all gets funneled through sex.

Yes. But we're getting close to the thing that really irks me that I really want to drill down into. There's the intellectual version of what we would aim to be, which would be for men more vulnerable, more open, all these things. Then there's the reality of which we live in, which is women aren't as attracted to that. And no one wants to acknowledge that. No one wants to be truthful about that. I hear it even when you're watching Orna, you're like, they're so pissed that their guys isn't a fucking dude.

Well, it can't be 100% of just like, I'm so emotionally all day or whatever.

But it's.

That is not true.

I think it was best summarized on. Did you watch White Lotus this season?

Yes.

Here's this guy. He's saying everything she wants him to say. He's a perfect feminist. And she meets this dickhead tattooed asshole, and that's who she wants to fuck. And that's the truth. I think everyone's running from that truth. And it drives me nuts that we can't somehow first acknowledge it and then get into it, but we're not even at the face of where we're acknowledging it.

So the problem is that the same toxic beliefs about masculinity that men grow up having, we women grow up with as well. And so there's. There's this dance that we do inside ourselves of we want more vulnerability, we want more openness, but we want it in the right way. There's toxicity within us as well.

There's a vestigial 300,000 years of evolution where you're trying to get with whoever's going to be most successful on. On planet Earth and feed your child. And, you know, societally, it's not that dude. It's the dude who leads the other men. It is getting there.

It is.

And I do think we're just in this very slow and, I think, quite painful transition before we recognize, no, this vulnerability does equal status and does equal food and a roof over your head.

I'm in complete agreement with that. We're in a very uncomfortable phase right now where we're wanting to make this shift, but we don't know how to, and we don't have the tools to. And so it's like we want it just right kind of feeling, you know, I can speak to my own relationship. I've had moments where Xander has approached me in vulnerability, and I'm like, oh, that feels so good. Look at this evolved man that I have with me. Like, you go, babe. And I've had moments where he shares an emotion, and I'm like.

Like cringy.

I don't want to fuck you right now.

Yes. I appreciate you admitting that so much.

But why do you.

It's a pain, but you don't have to.

But there's also this sense of like, okay, so it's not physically attractive today. That's okay. No one has to have sex Today, Why does have to be, do you know what I mean when you're saying, ooh, like that's a little cringey, I don't want to fuck you, then maybe you don't fuck that day.

Right. You're saying, why is the expectation that you're gonna be 100% attractive at all times?

Exactly.

That's fair.

That's not necessary. If we want our partners to take on different behaviors and do different things, we need to create the space for them to not always get it right. And we need to examine within ourselves what is it within me that I'm wanting him to do it just right. There is no one right way to express vulnerability and emotion. And that's stuff that I have to look at within myself of why are there that it turns me off and times that it turns me on.

Well, I just have great compassion for the 17 year old boy who's like, he's nice, he's thoughtful, he does all the things and he looks around and the assholes are the ones getting laid. But he's being told by all the academics, well, that's the way. I just want to acknowledge that. I have compassion for that.

I think he's going to end up being fine. I think he's going to end up with a partner with an emotional maturity that matches his. And I don't want someone not vulnerable. I'm never ending up with someone who can't be vulnerable. I'm not. That's so boring. What a boring life.

But you'll also admit to the weird primitive thing when you're watching Bradley Cooper in the movie where he's a fucking dickhead and you admit, I'm so horny for this guy. So that's also on the table.

It is. But not to marry, not to be with.

Right, but we're incentive creatures. So if you're a 17 year old boy, you're not trying to get married, you're trying to like have sex with a woman.

I guess I think there's a difference between what we feel attracted to and who we want to choose as our long term partner.

Oh, that's very true. It's so tough. I think it's tough. It is.

I mean these are some of the complexities and it is this phase that we're in of trying to figure out we want to move towards this. We all see the value in this, but we're kind of stuck on that growing edge of it, of how do we do it. I think being able to see the ways that we're each contributing to it.

Yeah.

Okay. So we were mostly just living in the beginning of this book, if you can believe that. That's really the beginning of the book. But as you have said. So it's Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. So it is broken up into to, number one acknowledgement, which is sex is a thing, and we have it. I think this is a good place to start.

It is a good place to start, yeah.

Is it right that you originally had, like, 26?

I had 14.

14, okay.

Yeah.

I'm a tools and techniques kind of gal. I was like, I want to cram everything into this book. And my editor was like, nobody wants to have 14 conversations. Like, can you pick five?

Well, I love the five you pick. Thank you. Yeah. Sex is a thing and we have it.

So when I was conceptualizing the book, I knew people are gonna see this book at the bookstore and just think, oh, God, I'm nervous. I don'. If I want to do this, can I do this? And so I wanted to find a really easy starting point. Let's ease our way into it. We're not jumping in. In the first conversation talking about, I wanna have a threesome and I want you to tie me up on my toes and hang from the rafters. We have perfect rafters in here for this. So I wanted to pick something that was gonna feel accessible to a lot of people and just give them the confidence of, I can do this. I can have this first conversation. I can get some momentum going, some confidence and some courage up to keep me going through the others. And so for most of the most couples, they just have not talked openly about their sex life. Going back to the fucking fairy tale, as they call it. In the book, we're taught that we're not supposed to have to talk about sex at all. So this conversation is literally just getting comfortable with the words, saying them out loud. Acknowledging sex is a thing, and we have it. I can't remember the statistic off the top of my head right now, but there's a pretty horrible statistic about what percentage of couples conversations are purely logistical. Just about like the appointments at 4 and who's picking up Timmy from soccer practice. We're just not having these deeper, meaningful conversations anymore. So this conversation I really like because it's something that you can continue doing throughout the course of your relationship. Not every conversation about sex needs to be about a problem trying to solve an issue. I want people to start with having neutral to positive conversations about it. We're not Trying to accomplish anything in this first conversation, it's literally just getting comfortable saying, we just had sex. That was fun. What did we like about that?

I love that, because, yes, the times we'll talk about sex is when either of us have an issue.

Exactly. And that's the mistake that most couples make. And so I actually got the inspiration for this conversation. When Xander joined my business, we made this transition. I used to work one on one and two on one with couples, and then we transitioned into creating online guides and courses, and Zander joined the business. And so we started talking, especially on Instagram, much more openly, the two of us as a couple. Here's something that we tried. Here's something funny that went wrong. And the more that we. We talked about sex, just generally, we started having more and more sex and feeling more connected. We're onto something here. It doesn't have to be, hey, we need to talk about sex.

Stupidly simple, yet exactly. It shocks you when it happens.

Those are the exact kind of tips that I go for. They're stupidly simple, but you don't think about them in the moment. Afterwards, you're like, why did I resist that for so long? That was so easy, and it made such a big impact.

Yeah. And you talk about expectations a lot in the book, which are fantastic. Like, yeah, here's this thing I want to try also. Also, it's gonna go wrong in many ways.

That's the first pancake rule. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God.

That's great.

Yeah.

Just like whenever you're making pancakes, the first one turns out a little weird. Like, very often when we try new things in the bedroom, it's not gonna go perfectly. Having a sense of humor about it and really bringing the expectations down of, like, let's just try this and see how it goes. Rather than we need to hit it out of the park.

One of your patients was like, I want to try cowgirl, but I'm afraid to.

Yeah. Most of us have fears of things that we are curious about or would be open to trying, but we don't want to look stupid in front of our partner. We don't want to look incompetent. Like, we don't know what we're doing. We put that pressure for it to be the home run on the very first go. So the first pancake rule is really helpful for that of just literally saying, let's give it a go. Let's treat it as an experiment, learn some things. Yeah. And sometimes even putting an name to it, like, yeah, this is just our Little practice session. You know, we're playing around here. That can be really beneficial as well. And a lot of times also just speaking your fear out loud to your partner. So with that client in particular, we had a session with her partner where she was able to say, I'm really afraid of getting on top. That I'm not going to know how do I move my hips and what do I do? And I'm afraid that you're going to laugh at me. And so he was able to hear that and tell her, like, I'm never going to laugh at you. That's really become what our business has focused on communication and technique these days. Because that's the other big thing that comes up with sex. We all feel like we're supposed to be so good at it. But where did you ever learn to get on top? Where did you ever learn? Here's how you move your hips, here's how you get into this position or out of this position, or here's how you transition smoothly into another position. I love teaching that nitty gritty. We have a sex positions guide. We have a foreplay guide that, like, walks you through, step by step, exactly what to do in a very fun and playful way.

The Virgos will love that.

Oh, they're gonna love it.

There's really nothing else in life that we put an expectation and pressure on ourselves to be so good at, despite having zero resources. Where do we ever learn this stuff? So that's what I wanted to do with my life, is teaching people all these things. I love that. How to actually have sex.

And then connection is the second conversation you encourage people to have. What do we need to feel connected to each other? And we've talked about some of that already.

Yeah, we've talked a bit about that. I mean, I think the big issue that comes up here is that most of us think of sex is something that happens in a vacuum. It's that thing that we do in our bedroom with the lights off at the end of the night, the doors are closed. It's compartmentalized.

Right. You're having sex all day long if.

You want to foreplays all day.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's what this conversation is about, is understanding. What do we need to feel close to each other and feel connected to each other all day so that the bar for having physical intimacy feels so much lower. This is a particularly important one for parents who feel like we're ships passing in the night. We're only having those logistical conversations. Our lives are all about the kids you're feeling so disconnected from each other that you get into bed with each other at the end of the night, and it feels like there's a stranger crawling into bed next to you. And most people don't want to have sex with somebody who's feeling like a stranger.

Even worse, an adversary. This is the person I've had to compromise with all day long.

Yes, all day. So it's understanding like that. Emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, they go hand in hand. They're two sides of the same coin. And we need to work on both of them and have practical tools for both of them. So that's all about keeping the simmer going throughout the day so that you feel more open to being physically intimate.

Then three is desire, and four is pleasure. These are kind of links. So what would get you turned on, and then at the end of that, what feels good?

And that is such an underlooked part of sex. We focus so much on the desire, like I was talking about earlier, and we neglect the importance of pleasure, because that's really what sex is about.

That's what'll keep them coming back for more. Yeah.

And there's a huge connection between our desire for sex and our enjoyment. So one of the first questions that I'll ask people, when they say, I have no desire, low desire, they tell me about the sex that you're having, and what they'll describe is, typically sex that's not worth craving. It's routine. It's predictable. There's nothing in it for me. I feel disconnected from my partner. I just lie there and, like, let my partner do it to me. And so the question is, okay, why would you crave that?

Yeah.

You know, I always make food comparisons too. It's like eating the same old bowl of overly steamed, mushy broccoli. Do you ever wake up craving, ugh, I can't wait for. For another bowl of overly steamed mushy broccoli? Like, of course not. We make that connection so readily with food. Why would I crave a kind of food that I don't enjoy eating, that? We don't make that connection with sex.

You could try to get so in the mood to eat the bad broccoli, but it's still not gonna work.

And food is a good analogy, because there is gonna be a food that you do crave in life. There's gonna be something you like. You also have to find it.

The more time you prep it and prepare it, it's better. And desire. A lot of really good analogies here. Right? On the table.

Oh.

I don't know why I'm going to share this, but I feel lucky to have had this experience. When my wife was getting close to delivering, the OB said, have sex as much as you can and ejaculate on the mucoid plug. That'll help erode it and help.

Oh boy.

Do you know this?

No.

You ever heard this?

Feels intense.

Yeah. So all of a sudden there was this huge r. Mechanical. Right. So there was this huge role reversal. I was expected to do that every night. And after the third night and now I attributed it to. And I was honest about it. Night four, I was like, this is bringing up weird molesting stuff. Knowing that I need to do this is really me up. And I shared that and then that ended. But I was so grateful to have the experience that I think a lot of women experience, which is like, there's this creature out there that wants me to do this thing and I don't want to do it. It feels fucking terrible to do this thing if I don't want to do it. Doing something sexually that you don't want to. I'm lucky. I ha. I got to feel it because it made me certainly more empathetic to a lot of women that feel that way. And I'm like, yeah, it's a fucking bad feeling.

That's one of the biggest mistakes that women make with their sex lives is that there's so many women who just have sex to keep my partner happy or that's what I'm supposed to do. That's my role as a wife, as a good partner. Even the lighter vers are just, oh, I'm just throwing him a bone, he's fine. I just like let him have it again. It goes back to that connection between our enjoyment of something and our desire for it. If you start creating this association with sex that it's something I give to my partner, I throw him a bone. I don't have a choice in doing it. That's what makes me a good partner is saying, yes, you are never gonna feel any desire for it. So it's so important for us to only have sex that we want to have.

Uh huh. Exploration. What should we try next? What an appropriate last conversation to have. This is probably pretty hard for couples. Yeah. If they have something they feel like is a kink or something that makes them weird or different.

So you're illustrating the mistake that I think a lot of people make with exploration is that we go to the kink aspect of it. And kink Is amazing and great. If you have super complex fantasies or wild and crazy kinks that you want to do, that's amazing. Amazing. Do them. Go for it. But trying new things in the bedroom doesn't have to mean wildly pushing your comfort zone. For a lot of couples. I actually recommend starting with what are the things that you used to do when you first started having sex that you haven't done in a while?

That's a great one.

Most of us, as time goes on, our window of what sex looks like narrows and narrows and narrows into this very predictable, very quick little routine. It's turned from a buffet into an entree. And so, yeah, mixing it up, spicing it up. It doesn't need to be anything complex. It could be, oh yeah, we haven't made out in a while. Can we bring back the making out or you haven't gone down on me a while. We haven't played with toys in a while.

Haven't fucked on the couch in a while. Exactly.

Had sex somewhere else. So just bringing back some of those things.

Okay, we're leaving your book now. You're just my therapist. Not even my therapist. You're my friend who's a therapist. And we're at dinner.

Okay.

Let me also preface it by saying I was in an open relationship for nine years.

Okay.

But I'm curious. You must increasingly be having patients that are in polyamorous situations.

Yeah.

In so many ways it was fantastic. Which is there was never any diminishment of love or respect. And that didn't have the impact that I guess, I think a lot of people would be fearful it would have, at least for us, it didn't. We sleep in the same bed together every single night. When stuff happens, who knows, we don't talk about it, whatever that was. The situation, I think the cancerous thing, and maybe this is just for me, is that if given an easy option, why on earth would I work hard on the other thing? It's a given that a long term relationship is going to require a lot of work sexually. So if I'm getting something that's filled with dopamine and excitement, how on earth are those two things going to compare? And how incentivized am I to put in the work on the stable thing?

So what I see is that the open relationship, anything non monogamous, the ones that work out are the ones where it's actually more work than having a monogamous relationship.

Ironically.

Ironically. Because to do it properly, there's so much communication that needs to be involved. You're bringing in multiple. So now there are just more feelings and more feelings about the feelings. You know, it wasn't just person A's feelings and person B's feelings and person B's feelings about person A's feelings. Now it's, you know, all the different variants, permutations, Permutations of it. So I wholeheartedly believe, you know, there are billions of people on this planet. Monogamy is not the one and only relationship structure that works or that we should all be strong.

Historically, we didn't really have it.

Yeah, exactly. I believe that people should be thoughtful about the kinds of relationship models that they want to try and explore and be open about it. But it does require a lot of communication. So the ones that I don't see working out are where people go into it. One, if the relationship is bad, that's.

A solution to it. Yeah, right.

Oh, our sex life is terrible, so let's just bring in other people. It's only gonna make it worse. And two, where there are a no rules type of thing, it really needs to have boundaries. There's a lot of communication. We're figuring out what's on the table, what's off off the table. There's constant negotiation and renegotiation. So it's an incredible amount of work.

Well, that was our situation ultimately, years in. I was like, it feels like you're going on dates with people. This doesn't feel like what the thing was. And she goes, well, yeah, this thing works great for you. You just want to fuck a stranger. I want to go out to dinner with someone and have them be super interested in what book I'm reading. That's what I'm longing for. And you can't give that. And I don't even expect you to give that to me. We've been together for four years, and I was like, that's very legit. So, yeah, that's a new element. So, yeah, you can go on dates. And it did. It had to constantly evolve and account for what each person was looking for. I guess it was probably started out very. A patriarchal version of the arrangement, and then it evolved into something maybe, hopefully more egalitarian. But ultimately, for me also, I was in my 20s. I didn't have to tend to the sexual relationship in the primary relationship because I was fulfilled. And that was. That was very destructive for me on that aspect of it.

I think a lot of people go into open relationships thinking that it's gonna be easier and fun and, oh, I just get to continue having that new relationship energy with new. New and new people. And I don't have to tend to the original relationship, and it's just not gonna work out in the long run in that way. It has to be both. I tend to the relationship. The relationship is solid, and we work on that. And we also have different relationships with other people as well, that we tend to those, too.

Yeah. I was pretty shocked while watching couples therapy. Were you with, like, kind of the high percentage of people that were involved? Yeah, there were.

I know, but it didn't really work out.

Yeah. A lot of people just don't set it up properly from the get go, and then they get into a place where it's like, oh, boy, it's chaos. Now what do we do? How do we figure out where we are now?

And I think you're right. So many people place it as a solution. It's like, well, we're not getting this, so we might as well go get it from other people.

I think people enter it naively, too, with the assumption that, like, no one's gonna fall in love with anyone. That, like, oh, we just want this physical, fun outlet. But that also is not gonna be the case.

Yeah. And that's something that you can even go into a relationship saying, well, that's our guideline. That's our rule. I have a boundary of this is just sex, not love. We can't really always control that.

Yeah. Oh, all right. Did I have one other one that had nothing to do with your book?

Before we started, we were talking, and you said, I don't know if is this connected to your work, but you're not interested in having kids.

It's not connected to my work. It's a big surprise for both Xander and I. We entered our marriage thinking that we were gonna have kids. We both love kids, have siblings, always envisioned our lives with kids. And we got married kind of on the younger side, younger than either of us were expecting to. And so it was this idea of, yeah, we'll be married for a few years, and then we'll have kids when the time feels right. And we would always hear from people like, oh, you'll know when the time. You'll start to get that urge. And so time started ticking on, and we were getting closer and closer to the time that I thought it was going to be right. And neither one of us were feeling the active desire to have kids. And so we kept checking in with each other, like, feel like we should be having them at this point. Like, this is kind of the time but do you want to? Not really. Do you want to? Not really. And so we kept kind of kicking the can down the road, saying, well, let's just keep talking about. Let's keep checking in about it. And ultimately, it ended up being a very challenging and very emotional journey to have had this image in my head of what my life is gonna look like and then realize in the moment I'm not actually feeling the desire to create that. You know, I didn't even know, how do you make that decision? It's such a monumental decision. But what anchored me, the question that I kept coming back to over and over again was just, do I feel the active desire to have a child? And. And I kept thinking, any potential child that I could have, I would want to be able to look my child in the eyes and say, I wanted you so badly. You were loved for the moment you even came into existence. And I just never felt like I could do that. And to me, bringing a new life into the world feels like such an enormous responsibility and privilege that not being able to say yes to that. I felt like I shouldn't then.

Yeah, well, it's great you two are on the same page, miraculously. Yeah.

We both, like. I don't know how we both managed to change our mind, and we really made the space for each other to, like, you don't have to change your mind about this. I would support him if he realized, no, I actually do really want to have kids, and vice versa. So there was no pressure on either end. So I'm really grateful that we both changed our minds. But it's been a real journey, and it's been interesting to talk about publicly. Like, there's still so much judgment that couples who choose.

Did you even feel triggered when I said, primitively, we have a purpose on planet Earth? Like, does that? Because Monica and I often get in these little. I say things that are.

I know if I want to have.

And I say things that sound like I'm either shaming people who are not bonded to another person or not having kids. That's never my intention. And I don't think everyone should have kids. But when I say that sex is important because that's our primary mission as a species, do you go, like, fuck this guy. Here's that goddamn thing again.

I appreciate you asking, but, no, I didn't feel a judgment around that. Biologically, our genes want to survive and pass on, and I have fel. That little biological. I'm supposed to be doing this type of feeling, but I just keep Coming back to the desire.

Yeah. It's crazy what comes up at certain times.

Well, we just had the holidays. I'm sure that's.

We just had the holidays. I have a grandfather who passed this morning.

Oh, he did?

Yeah. I sent you a text, but.

Oh, I haven't read it. I was reading it.

It's okay. It was a while coming, and it's still sad, but it's.

It's all right.

Yeah. But anyway, that experience. A few weeks ago, I was home visiting, and. And I left, and I was like, I probably gotta have a kid because one's on his way out.

You're letting down your grandfather.

It's letting down. But then there is something bizarrely primitive of like, we gotta keep these genes going. Now one's gone. There's only a couple options left. I never think like that. I don't care. This. Keep propagating your genes. I never think it. But then death brings up a whole.

Oh, yeah.

And remember Neil Feast was saying, like, I'm contributing to Hitler's goal. That was his takeaway by being gay and Jewish. That was the weight that was on his. He's like, I'm fulfilling Hitler's dream by not having kids and being gay. Like, whoa, that's heavy.

Yeah, there's just so much underneath that, you know, until you're confronted with those decisions.

We started having these conversations around when we were 27 and about to turn 40 next month. And Xander just got a vasectomy a couple months ago. So that was, like, the final.

Like.

Okay, now we're officially closing the door and saying, this is not gonna happen.

I've only seen three pictures of Xander. In all three photos, he was not wearing shoes. He hates shoes.

Or we both do. I'm, like, sitting here, uncomfortable, wishing I could have taken my own off.

You could have absolutely taken them off. And you've got real strong bottoms of your feet. You can walk across gravel and stuff. Because I'm a.

He's a surfer, so his feet are gnarly. And you don't want to look at those feet.

Looks like seafoam coral.

You guys should get into that. What's it called? Like, grounding.

They're already into it.

I, like, never wear shoes.

They're grounding just naturally. They don't even have to pursue it.

That's a funny thing to notice about his photos, though.

Well, most people wear shoes and photos in a magazine.

That's great.

Okay. Vanessa, this was so fun.

I had a great time.

Worth your trip down from San Diego?

Spit.

Take yeah, first ever.

It was all downhill from there.

But your book's really, really great. I do think you're right in that people will be scared to even buy the book. And besides it being a great book, I think the thing that I would most want people to know is your just eff. Effortlessly in it immediately. It's not a mountain. You just start breaking these things down and you're like, all right, that's all doable. Yeah, I could make that list. It makes it very pragmatic and approachable and surmountable.

Yeah.

And I think that's the kind of genius of the book. Makes me think of aa. You walk in a and you're like, how the fuck am I going to quit doing drugs and drinking? Oh, you're going to read these 12 steps. And by God, here we're at this one. You know, it just starts happening. So I think for anyone who has any fear, anxiety of even broaching this, this book's perfect. Just get this fucking book and read it. And then maybe you'll want to give it to your partner. I think you will.

Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. Definitely. Writing a book about sex is an undertaking, and trying to market a book about sex as an undertaking, but I really wanted to write a book that would feel approachable and manageable for people. I wanted it to not be scary and also feel like Xander and I are there along with you every step of the way. We share some of our most embarrassing stories and most personal stories and just like, hey, we've been through this too. You're Norma. We're all normal. Let us guide you through this.

And I'm not diminishing the sophistication of the book, but literally, it's like you've started kindergarten.

That's exactly what I wanted.

When we're sitting on the carpet and they start telling you about the sun, you're like, oh, yeah, okay, I get this. Like, it's that approachable.

We need that. No one went to school for this. We have to start at kindergarten.

Yes, truly.

And you can buy it on audiobook. You can buy the Kindle version if you don't want to have the physical version. Don't have to go into a bookstore or anything like that.

Who read the audiobook?

Xander and I read it.

Oh, you did? Oh, so you have a podcast. Let me also mention that you love Vanessa, which I'm sure you do. You can also listen to her and Xander on Pillow Talk.

Yes, we do. A little weekly podcast from our bed and yeah, he's kind of a little bit of an audiophile. So he managed to hook up our closet to be our audiobook recording studio.

Oh, nice.

So it was all recorded from home in our closet.

Oh, perfect.

Closets are the way you should be recording.

This has nothing to do with that. But Schwarzenegger's book. I listened to the audio. You can just tell he has all the leverage in anything at any point. And you can tell he was just like, I'm going to do it at my house and I don't want anyone there. So he's literally. No, it's great. He's like, I came to this country. You're hearing goats. I have a lot of animals. They're walking around and you can hear animals walking, and it's like, not on the page. He's just kind of riffing on what's really happening with your wife. Oh, this is a whole new experience. He's like acknowledging what's going on while he's recording and he's reading the book.

I wish could have done that. We had to be exquisitely tuned into, like, oh, there was a little creek in the background. Get the dogs out of here.

He's like, yeah, there's a goat. Can you hear? All right, Vanessa, thank you so much, everyone. Check out Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. Good luck to you, and I hope we get to talk to you on the next book you write.

Thank you so much for having me.

Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong. We are supported by Searchlight Pictures. Is this Thing On? What happens when life gives you a second chance? Is this Thing On Is an intimate and hopeful portrait of a man navigating reinvention, reconnection, and redemption in middle age. We meet Alex, played by Will Arnett, in the wake of his separation from his wife Tess, played by Laura Dern. Looking for community and catharsis, Alex stumbles into the New York comedy scene and discovers a passion and sense purpose just as Tess embarks on her own journey of self discovery. Directed by Bradley Cooper, director of A Star Is Born and Maestro, and starring Will Arnett, Laura Dern, Andra Day and Bradley Cooper. Critics are calling it a brilliant and profound exploration of marriage that's life affirming, heartfelt and hilarious. Certified fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. I'm a sucker for a standup movie because baked into standups is the sadness memorability. Yes, it's great. Now playing in select theaters. Get tickets today.

What would happen if I put My cup on that.

Your paper cup?

Yeah.

Nothing.

Would it heat? I mean.

No, cuz it's. You see this thing at the bottom here? This ring? When that connects with the electricity, the electricity goes through there and creates some friction which creates the heat. So you need this part.

Got it.

This doesn't actually heat. This just gives electricity.

Copy.

So you might get some ions in your coffee. Do you want ions?

I'm low on ions.

What's your ion level right now? Currently. Did you take a reading this morning? It's at a four.

Yeah.

Oh no. How did you do? Waking up so early and getting over here. Was it harder? Okay.

It was okay. I went to bed pretty early. I have a headache. Oh, I've had one.

Have you had enough caffeine today?

Well, yeah, I had tea and I'm drinking coffee. Sometimes I get headaches on my period.

Okay, so any crampies?

No crampies, but headaches.

Crampy's kisses.

Cramp. Daddy's kisses.

Cramp. Diddy's kisses. I'm so sorry. You got a little bit of. I see you have a little sputum on your pradas. Your white pras. Do you want to wipe it right now with some tissue?

It's okay.

It's all right.

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate. Appreciate the offer. It's. It's what happens.

Yeah. Shoes are gonna get dirty.

They are. I'm okay with it.

Quicker you can accept that, the quicker.

Exactly.

Peace.

Peace on earth.

Peace on earth will be done.

Yeah, I'm not. I don't need a perfect shoe.

Good. I try to get mine.

I know. You've said that.

Like I. You saw me in my white Converse the other day. I was like, oh, I can. Can't wait for these to get dirty. Oh, they were humiliating. Walking down the street. I've got bright sho on today.

It's cuz you feel embarrassed. They're obviously new if they're that white. I think that's what it's like. I have the money to buy new shoes every day.

No, I think it's more like playground. Like it's just gonna draw attention to you.

The attention that you're fancy.

Yeah, that's true. Oh, this just popped in my head. Some people, and maybe just one person has been regularly requesting an update on Peaby.

A I miss pea baby.

Where is pee baby? I guess we can't give you one because we're not certain.

P baby's probably with my grandpa.

Peaby's definitely dead. The toilet's probably gone. Right. But could have Pee baby escaped the boundaries.

Well, yes, Pee baby definitely evaporated before the toilet got removed. Although the toilet at this point is probably still there. I could run over. I could check with Bill.

This person suggested many requests for an update on pee Baby. And then at point some. Some point wrote like, maybe Hermion Permium's living with P Baby. And perhaps we could get an update from Hermion Permium.

Okay, I see an update.

I wasn't leading you all there. I just like, it just occurred to me that was part of the. What a sweet man. He's taken in the pee baby and the robot. I don't know how her money though. I'm on disability. Oh, yeah, I got a bag. But that's okay because it gives me a lot of time to pursue my other interests. Friendship.

Oh. So can we. Should we ask him what's the state of. Sure, but I'm a little nervous. But.

Okay, tell me what you're.

I'm just like, is he gonna have bad news? I mean, I just don't know what I. I'm curious too.

Got great news for you. P Baby just graduated.

TK oh my God. Wow. Wow.

He or she is doing wonderful.

That's right.

There's celebrated around the whole playground as being a good companion and someone who can listen and rarely interjects. Doesn't have a lot of advice, but that's okay. Sometimes. Wow.

Okay, TK Pee baby's aging.

Interestingly, the chronology of a pee baby is very peculiar. I agree with you there whole Ms. Monica, we'd love to have you stop by the house over in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, usa. Say hi to me and the robot. Is that my friend Monica? Has she ever considered dating a robot? Because I am a boy, so she shouldn't feel ethically compromised.

The robot needs to know that I can't date boys. I have to date men. He's not a man.

I'm 18 years old.

Okay, I think he's lying.

Some of my material is timeless. Wait, now he has per of speech impediment. That got confusing.

I sounded like him. Well, those two are. I'm glad to have chatted.

Sorry about your headache. I think we should update people. This is the earliest we've ever done a fact check because we started an interview this morning at 7:45 early pearly.

It is early, but it's nice because.

Well, the whole day to whole day ruminate. I liked it because it gave me an excuse to drink more caffeine than I normally get too.

I saw you had a coffee and then started on your own?

Well, Wobby Wob had brought me a Maru and. Brought you a Maru.

Yes.

And then I also wanted to brew one.

Exactly.

Just because. Creature of habit.

Yeah, I know. I brought a tea in, so I drank that. And now I'm drinking.

Transitioned into the. The roo.

Yeah, to the roo. Okay. Something uncharacteristic happened.

Please tell me.

Yesterday I left to go to a pickleball birthday party.

Okay.

Left my house.

Are you allowed to tell me who's Rachel?

I really need her to teach me because we just like, paddled around a little bit and I liked it, but I couldn't really. I don't know how to play yet.

I'm proud of you for playing because you wouldn't participate in my volleyball games. So I had low expectations of you playing pickleball.

But listen, you don't want to. Believe me, I don't like volleyball. It's not that. I just don't want to participate in anything. I just don't want to participate in things I. I don't like.

Right. Have you ever played grass volleyball? I don't want to press. I'm just trying to tiptoe around this. But you have played grass volleyball. Because. Let me just say gymnasium volleyball.

Ouchie, ouchie. Yeah.

Sandball volleyball. Too hard. Grass volleyball. Just Right.

Well, except that everyone was in so much pain. It didn't make it more alluring after the fact. And it's not the ground, it's the. My wrists.

Okay.

It's my hands and wrists. I. I don't like it.

You get afraid you're gonna hurt your wrist as you look how small they are. I got the same size ones.

No.

Try being a 62 male with those size wrists. You don't.

Your wrists are not as small as mine.

They're so dainty, it stings. I. I know what you're talking about, stings. If it's a hard ball, like gym class, it's stun. When you were playing guys, you have. You hit with your fingertips. And it's not that I'm.

I'm anti that, but even that, it's the impact. I have dainty wrists. It was always hard for me to do back handsprings.

Oh, okay.

Cause of the impact.

Right. Okay. So anyways, back to pickleball.

Okay. Yeah. So. But pickleball, I'm happy to try. It was fun. I didn't really play any of the games. Cause I didn't know how to play and people knew how to play. It wasn't fair. So I went to this party, gone for a long time, and it hits me that maybe I left my candle on.

Uh. Oh.

But if you didn't know that I was telling a story right now and I was with you and I said, ugh, I feel like I. I maybe left my candle on, you'd say, no, you didn't.

Well, yeah, because I know you worry about things.

Exactly.

Yeah. You'll. You'll be in bed thinking your oven's on.

Exactly.

Right.

So I channeled everyone else who I knew would say, I'm sure you didn't. And you're just worried. And I get home many, many hours later. It's on.

Uh.

Oh, left it on all day.

Ooh. In an apartment building.

Scary.

Yeah. Yeah. I hate candles.

But I guess. Okay. Then I started to really think about it. The fear, right. I guess, is that something would blow on it and catch fire.

No. So this is what, as you know, my mother's house caught on fire while we were downstairs in the basement having a shows and shoots work party. Christmas party.

Yeah.

And we were down there playing pool and everyone's pretty hammered. And Dean goes upstairs to get probably some more refreshments of some sort of. And we hear him screaming, fire.

Yeah.

For real. Because we're all such shithead jokesters.

Right.

But it was pretty clear by the tenor of his voice that it was. So what had happened? There is. There was a candle on a glass table. Sometimes those things crack. Like they get hot. It cracked as the wax spilled out. And then over the table, it all just caught fire. And it went right down to the wood floor. And now you have this explosion accelerant on the wood floor. I think they're the cause of like 90 of house fires. I mean, it's.

I know. I just always wonder because. Okay, I've done it one other time in my life.

Okay.

And it just burnt out on its. Like it just burnt all the way down. And.

And I think that 99.999% of the times that's what happens.

But then I guess, yeah, the glass crack is an ish.

Yeah. And shouldn't happen. Maybe it was a shitty candle my mother had bought. But. But also at that. That exact same time, I worked with four dudes that lived at this house. One of them had candles burning. His room burnt the whole house down. So it was like that happened. And then the thing at my mom's house happens. I'm so reckless with so many things. Candles happens to be the one thing I'm like, on high alert for. And so Kristen loves candles. They're burning all over the house.

Yeah.

And my thing is, like, you gotta have a runoff at least. Like, if you're gonna have these candles burn all the time, please have them on a plate. That'll capture if it breaks the wax so it won't spill over. I don't ever want to see a candle on a wood fin of anything. So I'm pretty neurotic about the candles.

My candle is on a little pedestal.

Oh, great.

And it's on top of books. And that's all on top of a wood table.

And books are very flammable.

Well, the top is not. It's a coffee table book. It has a veneer.

Yeah, it's pretty flammable.

Okay. Well, anywho, anyway, that's my story.

I'm not trying to shame you.

That happened.

I'm trying to save you. So I think books are pretty flammable.

I know platters.

Don't you have decorative platters?

I don't. I mean, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to say.

Okay.

It was a big oopsies.

Like, this candle. I was in the house, I guess Friday after we recorded, we did two episodes. And then I find myself in bed going like, oh, right. I remember we had a candle going that's on a wood desk. And then I start getting neurotic about it. And then I got to come up here to double check. Check that it's out.

And was it out?

Yeah. I will say you normally blow it out before me. And I'm pretty neurotic about come over there. How's this blown out already?

Because I did this the one time I'm careful. That's why.

Oh, I'm not accusing you of not.

That's why it's so upsetting when you're right.

Yeah.

Because then it's really bad for anxiety.

It fuels another 20 times sometimes being wrong.

Yes. But luckily nothing happened. Still just burning a little quiet burn.

It probably smelled wonderful in there too. It did.

It did.

That's how I.

When I came in, I was like, oh, I definitely did. It smells great in here. I need to practice using the fire extinguisher, but I can't really practice.

Also. I don't think you do. You pull the pin out and squeeze it. It's. It's not very complicated. They make it real intuitive.

Yeah. So that happened. And then on Saturday, something else happened on Saturday.

What?

I went to bed really early on Saturday, I was so tired, and I went to bed, and then I woke up in the morning, early in the morning, which was exciting.

Right before the sun was out.

And then I looked at the clock, and it was 11:30pm I already slept the whole night.

Had your dreams, had your real, had your deep cycles.

Did everything.

Major endorphins.

Oh, it was so upsetting.

What did you do?

I just, like, closed my. I tried to go back to sleep, which I did.

Oh, good.

I don't know how long because I didn't want to keep checking. Yeah, I don't know what time I fell back asleep, but I did fall back asleep at some point.

Okay. And when you woke up for the second time, what time was it?

Nine.

Whoa.

I know. Yeah, I know.

Your viewer, you need. Needed a deep cycle charge.

I guess I still feel tired.

You do? I wonder what your iron's at.

Well, I'm on my period, so it's probably low.

Right.

I had beef yesterday, though.

Oh, good. Get some beef. I love beef. What kind of beef did you have? Hamburgers.

Oh, God. Yeah.

Yeah. He's here now, too. Sorry. Knock, knock. Coming in. Don't even wait for an answer. Check me out. I'm here. Take me in. Just like the be beef you had. What kind of beef was it?

It was. It was ground beef.

Oh. Grind it.

Ew. Oh, he's so the opposite of the robot in Hermion. Permium.

Yeah.

Ew. He's so awful. Oh, man.

I had a really, really satisfying day yesterday.

Tell me.

So I'm. We're working. Are you done?

Yeah.

Okay. I am preparing to go to the sand dunes.

Yeah. Are you so excited?

I am in particularly because of yesterday. So what generally happens? And I'll out myself as being, like, not a good steward of my stuff. I have too many items. I have too many vehicles.

Yeah.

Just keeping all the batteries tended to is. And then, like, I have them all plugged into tenders, but then, you know, the GFI blows on the garden plug, and then they're not charging for six months, and I go to start something, and I use things so infrequently. Like, I would love to go to the dunes all the time, but I don't really have time. So I have not been to the dunes. And I went in November for Aaron's sobriety birthday last year. So we're. We're at 14 months.

Wow.

So I haven't started my sandrail. I haven't started the razors. The razors have been in a trail, you know, all this shit. And I had help. Jay was helping me, thank God, so I at least deployed him to make sure the batteries were charged last week.

Oh, that's smart.

Fucking Sandra fired right up. Ran beautifully. The razors all worked. Oh, great. I loaded the truck. There's always an incident loan, like the fucking cable breaks with the big heavy door. But everything went beautifully. Everything ran beautifully. Everything's prepped, everything's full of fuel. The extra tank is full. I slid it right into the trailer, the big trailer, then the one seater behind it.

Everything's perfectly everything as it should be.

Yes. And then I put the trailer ahead of time, like already where it needs to be to hook the bus up to it, which is always a fiasco when I'm trying to leave. So everything is like ready to get hooked up and drive, drive away, and nothing's broken. Which then led back to the candle and obsession and kind of obsessive compulsive thoughts. At some point when it was going so well, I'm like, the bus has got to be broken.

You're waiting for the other.

The shoe to drop. Like, there's no way this is all going is because usually I'm discovering I have a big mechanical thing I've got to sort out. Not enough time.

Yes.

So everything's working so perfectly. And so the only thing hovering about above me is like, then I'm gonna fire up the bus on Wednesday and the suspension's not gonna be working or something. The air suspension I give them. But I did fire up the generator yesterday. That thing ran perfectly. So we're almost there. We're almost to everything being perfectly getting washed today.

It's getting a bath.

Yes, yes. The. The. The bus is getting a bath and I'm never this ahead and all I got to worry about is the food we're gonna eat out there.

I was gonna say snacks could be a thing you're overlooking as not a problem, but then could end up being a problem.

Be a big problem if we had no snacks out in the dunes. Agreed.

What are you going to make meals wise?

I plan on taking out a couple pounds of taco meat. A couple pounds? Manwich.

Okay, great.

And then I already have like eight steaks out in the freezer. I already put them in the bus in the freezer. I've already got a few in the fridge thawing. So we'll barbecue steaks and we'll have our. Our ground beefs and our. Yeah, that sounds nice, but you're right. We need more snacky snacks.

Snacks, chippies, because the little mice and rats will need some chips.

The mice are gone. You recall Aaron and I captured them humanely.

Well, you don't know who will arrive.

Yeah.

For their chippy. Who it is miniature mice.

Will you talk to them and just say, like, can they sit this trip out?

I will, I will. As their mother.

Do you remember how like the first time I discovered that we had the mice is that I thought Aaron was eating ruffles at three in the morning. I was like, I felt like his parent. Like, I want to go, yeah, at him. Like, you can't eat chips in the middle of the night. Like when I woke up, I was like, how am I going to broach this subject that I. I don't think he should be eating chips. And finally I just said, did you get into the bag of ruffles last? He's like, no. And he can't hear a thing because he's hooked up to that contraption while he sleeps.

Exactly. That's okay. So, I mean, this is a moot question because the answer is yes. And for all of us, if I was there and you were like a Monica's eating ruffles in the middle of the night, you probably wouldn't. Well, you tell me. You probably wouldn't be like, I need to tell her she shouldn't do that.

Correct.

Isn't that funny? Like we have such specific. But if there was something else I was doing, you would.

Exactly. Because we're co piloting each other.

Yeah.

Like that's part of friendship. You know, Kristin's telling Eric not to eat the Krispy Kreme on the birthday party on Saturday. You know, like we're kind of trying to help each other with minimally their expressed goals. Like, I'm never trying to intervene with somebody who, who hasn't expressed a goal.

Yeah.

But if a friend of mine has expressed a goal and then I hear something that they might not occur to them this is very contrary to your goal and might mention it.

That's true. I guess you're right. It has to be stated like they need to sort of given you permission to do that.

Yeah. Like deputized you to help. Because also for me, it's also a very big sign of love. I don't care enough about a lot of people to have an awkward conversation that might offend them. I'd rather just skip it. And I don't really care if they don't meet their goals.

So I guess you also know he does have that goal. So he would never feel defensive about It.

Right. Or maybe he would. And then he would get over it because he would. He would quickly recognize my intention was to not control him, but to help him. Yeah, but similarly, there are people that would tell me this candle story and I would just listen and I would have no feedback. I wouldn't tell them how to avoid burning to death. I would just be like, okay, yeah, you're handling your candles however you handle them. But you. I'm gonna like, make some suggestions.

I don't know what to do though. Cuz I love the look.

Yeah, it's a good look.

And I love this look.

Silver platters. Am I wrong? And brass platters.

It's on. It's on a like gold, brassy little pedestal thing. But I don't want it to be too big. It won't look good if it's too big.

No, but what about small trays? Like serving trays that are decorative?

Yeah.

You have those.

Those. I do, but it just.

Could we put our candles on them?

I just. I don't think it's gonna look as good.

Okay, well then.

But I. I hear you. I think.

Can't commit to it. That's okay. We're not there. We're not ready for this.

I just can't believe I did it.

Right. Right. So like again. And as your friend, I mean, like.

I have long covet wanting.

Wanting to be current.

Covid.

Maybe wanting to. To be infallible sounds like an unobtainable goal. As your friend. So in place of that, that everyone's fallible, I'm suggesting a backup, a safety net, which would be again, a very beautiful serving platter.

Okay.

Okay. Just think about it.

I'll look. I mean, I love buying stuff, so I guess I could go buy one.

Or I could settle for that. There's a Post it on your door.

I know.

Something that just says our candles out.

I know. No, I thought about that, but then that feels like that's really not good for my anxiety to have that posted. Cause then it's like a constant that.

You'Ve invited peril into your orbit.

Yeah. I have to be careful managing this brain.

This is a brag, but I'm gonna say it. Cause I often complain when the opposite's happening.

Okay.

My word, access has been off the charts for like five days. And it's so weird. I can feel it.

I can feel it too. When it's happen. I. Mine's the opposite. What? What are you doing? What's different?

No dip. I mean, I. I'm trying to think what's different that that, that. But that's counterintuitive because dip is a stimulant and probably it was helping me think. I don't know.

But probably not. This is what we think. This is like with booze where you think you're so flowy and your best self, but you're not.

Also my guess my diet. I just haven't deviated and had any flare ups. I don't know what's on. Going, going on, but I've just been like, oh, 49. This feels good. Yeah.

Maybe that your birthday.

It could have been my birthday. Maybe because I'm writing more and I'm like playing with words in my head more.

Yeah.

But I like it so much.

That's. I know. It feels so good.

It does. I wish it would stay forever, but alas, it won't.

It might.

I mean, isn't your greatest fear in life is like you when you get much, much older and you're starting to. To get dementia and you're like struggling to remember a word. That sounds like purgatory to me.

I know, it's awful.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, that's from your computer. I was going to say you're not one to have your ringer on, but.

Your computer just running on. That is annoying. That is weird.

I can make. I can phone call you on your computer.

Call me.

All right, let's see. And then answer on your computer and let's see what happens.

Okay.

This is a real time experiment, so if it goes wrong, forgive us. Okay, I'm gonna go to favorites because you're one of my favorites. And then I'm gonna go here to messages, but then I'm gonna go to call.

Okay. Okay. It is ring.

Okay, but let it ring on your computer.

It did. It just didn't make a noise.

Okay, hold on. I got. Hello. Hi. Hi. What kind of beef did you eat last night?

Hung up on him. He's not allowed to call me.

I thought I get to hear on your completer because you're so smart.

It's like he's so weird.

Stop.

He's so aggressive. Oh, man.

Okay. No one modeled any good behavior for him. It's not really his fault.

Yeah, it's not his fault, but it's his responsibility to change.

You're absolutely right.

Okay, now this is for Vanessa, the sex spurt. Yeah.

Yeah.

Loved her.

Yes.

Loved this episode. And I thought it was very helpful. I think very helpful to a lot of people. It will be.

This is a day of novelties because we recorded at 7:45 with a guest. Also, I have never listened to an episode episode when we do the fact check, but this is a rare case in which I have heard the episode as well.

Yes, you have.

Yeah. I think this only happened twice.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm on the same page as you. Is exciting.

Yeah, it is.

I listened to it because I wanted to make sure I hadn't said anything that was too revealing of other people. Yes, exactly. Tabloidy.

Yeah.

And I didn't think so. Well, you had already removed stuff.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I cut so much and I was sad to cut some of it, to be honest, because I think it was good. But we just can't trust the world and that's just sad.

Yeah, it sucks. For me, the. The boundary is. And I think I've said this in the past, like there's definitely been moments long ago where I would have gone to an SLA meeting. I relate to that. And in fact, I went to one once with a friend and if I go to an AA meeting, that's not something Kristin's going to be forced to address in an inter.

Of course.

But if I'm. If people see me at SLA meetings, then all of a sudden every fucking interview will be like, what's it like to be married to a sex and love addict? Because I saw this happen to. It's so unfair. But it happened to Tia Leone where every fucking interview she was in, she would have to answer for David Duchovny. Having said that. And so I can only be as honest as I want to be. So long as it doesn't really impact anyone else.

Exactly. No, I know. And that's just a bummer for our listeners who are kind and nice, which is all of them for the most part are missing out on some interesting, helpful pieces of information that they could probably relate to.

But we can tell them here I was in a three year relationship with a horse.

Are you sure?

Are you sure you want. Are you say it. Yeah. No, no, it was nothing. That's also the annoying thing. It's. They're not saying anything. Anything that everyone else isn't saying or like experiencing. But I agree with you that there's just no point. And it's not fair to Kristen to drag her into something.

Yeah. Whatever level of honesty I feel comfortable with is, you know, I can't assume it's everyone else's.

Yeah, the episode's great still. So.

Yes.

I mean, I think a lot of people follow her and know of her, so they're probably already exposed. But if you don't, if you haven't, go follow her.

Her. Yeah.

Check her out.

Yep.

And her husband.

I have a knee jerk to anyone giving advice with their husband online about relationship stuff. Right. Like I just have a knee. I recoil at that. And I was completely wrong. I keep being proven I'm wrong.

Yeah.

But I have a bit of a knee jerk about people profiting from advice. There's something for me that like.

Well, we do that on synced.

You give advice.

I mean that's the whole. People write in and we talk about their questions. It's not necessarily. I mean it is true.

But you guys, you don't so sure. But neither of you in my opinion are approaching is if you have the actual answer and you're an expert. It's more like muddle through this with us.

Totally. That is true.

So that, that to me is the distinction.

Oh, I see.

But if you in. In Liz were making. Making posts all the time, like eight ways to make your boyfriend send you flowers on I'd be like, ugh.

Right.

I don't like that stuff.

Why do you think you don't like it?

I mean it's so off the dome. This is not a sussed out why it is. But it reminds me, I think of religion. Like we have the answer. Act like us, we got it figured out. And I just think like no one's got it figured out. Everything's a mess. No one should be up. They're saying I've got the solution. Granted, it's earned. A physicist should get on there and tell you how to build X, Y and Z. There's a place for it. But I think the self help domain.

Is riddled with social science can be dicey.

It is. I think a pretty small percentage of the self help world is helpful. There's been a bunch of studies about the result of people reading self help books that the majority of the people feel worse afterwards because a plan is laid out in front of them that they yet fail at that thing again too. So like I had learned that 12 years ago and so that's in my craw.

Yeah. And it's just what works for. I mean I. Some people could say that about AA and it works for you and it works for a lot of people. And some of the self help things really work for a lot of people and they don't for others.

Right. But if AA had an Instagram account and they were urging people to come to them for the solution, I wouldn't like aa. I think the reason I've been able to embrace it is there's no. It's. It's against the rules to promote aa. It's literally against the rules. Right. So they don't. They're not trying to get more members. There's no money to be made. So to me, money.

I guess you're right. Money is the piece maybe that you Bristol and power.

No one has power. So like no one's getting status. Like it's weeded out a lot of the things that are the trick triggers for me.

Yeah.

But all that, all that to say this isn't at all Vanessa.

No. God, no.

But I just have to step over that little hang up I have. How do you feel about it? That's what I was just thinking.

I've never really thought about it too much. I don't have a, an allergy to it.

Yeah.

But I, I take a lot of it with a grain of salt. You know, I follow some things on Instagram and I can take and leave. I don't think that just because I like someone or something I have to like every piece or I have to. It's an all or nothing. I don't think that.

Right.

Oh, I like this one.

You can all a card it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What works for me and let the other go.

I think also is that what I like as a general base disposition for all these people is like, this has worked 3 out of 10 times times for me.

Huh.

That I like. I, I don't think anyone's got a diet that works all the time. I don't think they have a, A strategy for their mental health that works all the time. I think, like if there's just an admission that, like, hey, I, I was a one and this thing got me to a four, I'm still a mess. Like, that's, that's what I kind of need to trust you.

Yeah.

But a lot of these people are and they feel compelled to, to present an image of excellence.

Yeah.

And overcoming things. And I don't think we overcome things. I think we have varying. Some success rates about battling things. I don't think you ever put anything completely behind you.

That's true.

Yeah.

I agree. I do bristle at, at some of these. The body optimization. I do bristle at that way more than I do the mental optimization.

Right. Like when people are like, how to hack your longevity. Let's go right at probably glucose monitoring. Is that one of them? That's in our circle a lot right now.

That's in our circle. That one for some reason doesn't. Because I associate it so much with diabetes, where I'm like, you know, you need to know that. No, it's just when it's all consuming, where my whole day is spent doing this and then this and then this and then this and then this in order to optimize. It's also fine for. I think it also gives a sense.

Of control, which is like, the least bad of many addictions the person can have.

It's. It's. It's fine. But I am not buying in.

Yeah, Yeah, I. I agree with you. There's a lot of different fads that pass through, in and out of our circle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm kind of like, every road leads to the same place. Consume the same amount of calories you expend.

Yeah.

Sleep. Like, we got all these different ways to reconfirm this. Like, this is not a mystery.

Exactly. Yesterday I was thinking about it, I was like, you know, I haven't eaten a vegetable in two days. I need to eat a vegetable today. You need to eat vegetables. Get some protein, sleep.

Yeah, yeah. Drink water.

Drink water.

Move your body.

Exactly.

So, like, what movement of body is superior to the other? Like, people get hung up on that. I think. I think it's part of our technology fetish. It's like there's always going to be some technological breakthrough that's going to revolutionize this experience, and I'm just more pessimistic about that.

It is capitalism, and I'm not even one to normally go there, but it is. It's selling your health to you. Yes.

And it has to be novel, so you have to have some proprietary approach.

Yeah. What I don't like about it is there's a false promise that there's perfection, which is not true. I was having a conversation. A big. A group of us was talking about relationships, and this person was talking about leagues, leagues, leagues. This person's out of my league.

Oh, sure, sure, sure. Huh.

I was like, what are you measuring? What are you comparing? Intelligence? Are you comparing physical attractiveness? Are you comparing financial success? Or what are you saying?

Educational attainment?

Exactly. Athleticism. There's a million ways to define your living league. And so I just totally reject this idea of leagues.

And. Well, and you get to decide.

You get to decide. But that's why when you break it down, it's so arbitrary. Totally arbitrary.

Yes. And you know what my fanatical religious view is? Is of the primate and how we're supposed to be so. But I think there's still room for you and I to see eye to eye on this which is like I think, I think it's how I'm compassionate towards everyone because I think primitively we're trying to evaluate status and we're trying to get with the highest status person we can get with so that we'll survive because that's how we survived. Is the higher status person you linked up with the greater your rate of survival would be and your offspring. So that's like just baked into us and that's not our fault.

But some people are driven by it way more than others. I see it, I see a massive.

Sure, sure. I'm sure there's an enormous spectrum of how driven people are by that. But I think if you first acknowledge that's how you're built, have some compassion for that.

Yeah.

And then say okay that's how I am. But what do I think should give someone status? Yeah. Not you know, looking around and trying to piecemeal what I think society because it's very misunderstood misleading because the hot people in your school aren't the people that could ultimately ended up a higher survival rate for you.

You could also be poor and rich in a month.

But again this goes back to when there weren't jobs and educations and readings. So the really the only measure mostly was a. Your physical ability to defend yourself and to forage.

Yeah.

And then your maybe social acumen where you could climb the social ladder. So there's only a couple things.

Well and cleverness too I feel that's.

What I'm saying the social. Because that's in the chimps we see that the dominant male isn't always spreading their genes because the subordinate male has learned to yell leopard. They have a call for leopard. And of course the dominant male's like first on the scene.

Oh interesting.

And then the one who's not even required to be on the scene goes and fucks the dominant female which happens all the time.

Interesting.

So you know that's in the mix and we're the next step beyond that where we're very clever and we can manipulate and.

Totally yeah I agree, I have compassion for it but I also so much of it is about self esteem because when you know that you offer status you don't give a fuck about it anymore. But we all offer status in. In one that's my point is understand the ways that you offer it because you do. Everyone does.

Yes. But I think in part of the recognizing and being compassionate towards it you another like modern thing you need to incorporate is I actually have enough status on my own for my survival and my children's survival.

Yeah.

And I think that, too, is. That doesn't come naturally to us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's like letting yourself acknowledge, like, you'll be fine without it.

Exactly. Yeah.

There's also. There's another dark side, and I certainly have experienced this in life, is there's this other weird hiccup in. In human behavior, which is like, it's buyer's remorse. It's like, could I have gotten something better? There's some bias towards. I got that car, and that one was the same price. And it turns out that was better.

Yeah.

Whatever that thing is that drives is. I think two people can't not consider, did I get the best thing available to me?

Yeah. That it's so ingrained in us to. To have the best. Right. Or like, there's no such thing.

We're just so painfully hierarchical.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's the fucking nice hotel, but there's a residence. Next.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of, how's your Buddhist exploration going?

I read not a lot, but some of one of my books. Oh. Back to this. Gurus and Purporting Solutions. Like, one of the things was, if a charlatan tells the truth, it's still the truth, and if the Buddha tells a lie, it's still a lie. So the Buddha's status doesn't impact. Like, the truth is the foundational ingredient.

Yeah.

To enlightenment, to everything. And so, like, I'm really digging that concept.

I love that. Yeah.

And I'm digging the. I told you one of them. There is no higher being than a human, and the human has the capacity to learn the truth and shouldn't rely on another thing above it to find the truth.

Right.

The truth is in you. It's in your capacity, and it is your responsibility. And it's not someone else's or another deities or something higher or magical. And I'm like, boom. Love it.

Yeah.

So so far, I'm really loving it. And then the thing that seems really inspirational is how patient the Buddha is at hearing conflicting things, at feeling no real desire to challenge, having true compassion towards whatever anyone's going through. That stuff's appealing and will take a lot of work for me, but I think ultimately, if I could embrace some of those to some degree, I would be a better person.

That's great.

Yeah. I'm liking it so far.

Good. That's a fun journey.

And I'm early in. I don't want to claim I've read a bunch. No, it is interesting though, because I do have the voice in my head that is like, wow, this is so interesting. It's so true. Yet these people have elevated the Buddha and I don't like that. That's still my hang up on it. As I've said, I don't like that the Dalai Lama has its own city and everyone works in it for free. Like it's weird, it's. There does seem to be a bit of contradiction. How the Buddha has been elevated, despite all of the Buddha's teachings, are that that's not to be done. So. Yeah, I'm still struggling with that aspect of it.

Maybe the further in you get, you'll learn more about that, right? I don't know. Okay, so some facts. You did a spit take. That was funny.

I wish it were more obvious when I listened to it.

Yeah, you can't hear it.

Right. I'm wondering if Rob, you can isolate just the spit.

No, there's no spit. It just. I mean, you do, but you don't. It's not on mic.

Okay.

There was some reason.

It's probably protecting this beautiful. Sure. Microphone. Yeah, I don't think it was super audible either. Cuz I was back here and I didn't even notice. You visually saw a big mist. Yeah, yeah. You hear us react really quickly, but it was a mouthful of hot coffee and olive oil.

That's pretty crazy.

First time, never seen it. Never seen it.

Well, so much of it probably as mechanical, which is like it. The funniness happened at the perfect moment where I was about to swallow something mechanical. Also happened. The timing.

So specific. Okay, so there was a stat about. Someone said. The Gottman Institute said 64% of people's marriages get worse when they have kids. 67, even worse. Yeah, but that was in 2015.

I doubt it's gotten worse. It's only going up.

The decline typically shows up between six months for women and nine months for men after the baby comes home. Oh, God. This one. This is from 2023. Psychology Today. Within five years after the birth of a first child, over 40% of couples will go their separate ways. Yikes. Oh my God.

Oh, I believe it. It's such a. It's such a radical shift. Everything's already been ironed out. There's a protocol to how to. To coexist. And then this enormous obstacle presents itself. And then your assumption is just like, well, we already know how to hang, so it'll be fine, but no, you're gonna have. You need like a Whole new strategy.

Yeah. I found a good article. I was looking for something else, but then I found this called you're not listening. Here's why. It's from the New York Times. It's about how we have an unconscious tendency to tune out people we are closest to. Actually, we believe we already know what they're gonna say and do. So we're just, like, constantly not listening.

Well, it's like any other repetitive task that gets learned and then shuffled back to the subconscious. Like driving your car. You don't think about it.

Exactly. They literally use that example.

Okay.

Yeah. You're just on autopilot. You already know them so well. So, you know, here comes this. This is this. And they're gonna say this. And they.

It happened yesterday. Kristen was, like, cleaning in some way that was unique.

Huh.

And evaluating some radical shifts to some things.

Yeah.

And then I just. Me. It was like, I bet she's about to have her period. I didn't say anything. So I'm not stupid.

Yep.

And then later in the day, she said, I'm about to have my period. She's like, yeah. Like, I'm not gonna not notice patterns in my life. It'd be impossible not to notice these patterns.

Totally.

But.

But it's forcing yourself to. One example, which I thought was interesting was this couple. He got his wife a present. Something like a trip to the marine biology. Blah, blah, blah. She loves animals and whatever. He knows that about her. Right. She hates that present because she's pregnant and, like, can't stand the smell of the sea mammals. Yeah. And like, has said, like. Like, this is gross. When she's, like, eating tuna or whatever.

There's been new information.

Yes. But a inability to gather new information because it's so cemented. And we're. We're evolving people. So things change all the time. So you have to allow room for it.

I don't know.

I thought that was interesting. Check that out. That's on New York Times. Okie doke. The word is earthing, not grounding. I said grounding because her husband didn't wear shoes. And the picture.

And she too, it was later discovered.

She doesn't like wearing shoes. Earth thing.

I want there to be a study on people who don't wear shoes.

Oh.

When I see someone who doesn't wear shoes out and about.

Yeah.

I'm like, whoa. That's a thing. If you're someone who wears shoes all the time, it seems like a. A big decision. I don't know.

Now I am curious about it both Ways people who are always wearing. Like, you wear shoes all the time.

Me? Yeah. I'm not the type of person who takes my shoes up to get comfortable.

Right.

Although I am also. I walked all through London without shoes, so I do like. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. You're one of those people that people saw and was like, oh, that's weird.

Yeah. I loved aquariums, but now the smell bothers me.

So maybe. So if you like the feeling, that's what they like. Yeah, I guess.

Yeah. But great observation, because you'll take your shoes off when you get home.

I'm half. I like having my shoes on. It's tricky. I don't know.

I'm hesitant to say this because it sounds like victim me. And. And I never leave my childhood, but I do something about. I like knowing if I have to get up and run out of the house. Oh, I'm ready.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Like, the notion, like, for me, almost shoes off feels too vulnerable. Yeah. I could see it's the fan. I don't want to fight without shoes on. I don't want to run without shoes.

And also step on something. It could hurt.

Yeah.

You cry and then you'd be embarrassed.

I just feel safer in them. Like, I'm ready to respond to whatever. As long as they're on.

I'm with you. In some ways, I feel a little more protected. Like, I won't really stub my toe. I won't step on glass. Like, those things.

You could step on a mouse and it would suck. But fudge. The difference between stepping. Right. You like it take you a week to recover if you stepped on a mouse barefoot.

My people.

I know. Well, you'd have the added. It would be. It would be homicide for you.

It would be matricide. Is that what it's called? Matricide? Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes. And, well, it be infanticide. Be you killing your infants.

Oh, no. That's so sad. Sorry. I mean, I did try to kill him, remember, with my traps. So, yeah, I think I'm more on the side of shoe wearing. I'm also not a ne. I'm not a nude per. Like some people who love to be naked. I don't just, like, walk around my house naked.

Right.

Even if I'm by myself, I wear clothes.

Let that be a message to all peeping Toms. It's a waste of your time.

Although, I mean, if I'm going from, like, the bath to the. I mean, there are opportunities.

Oh, you just opened yourself opportunities to see stuff.

I. I mean, I've Mentioned this, that I have a. A nice neighbor. Well, the apartment complex next door is one foot distance.

Yeah.

From my bedroom. I mean from my kitchen window. There a man.

This person's porch.

Yeah. His little step where he smokes. He's a smoker. Yeah. So he's out there a lot. So he sees me a lot.

Right.

And I think he's seen and heard some stuff.

Stuff you. But you've come to view him as a guardian angel.

I do. I think he's here to protect me.

Yeah. And he was a red herring. Cuz at first you're like.

I was scared of him at first. Well, I was mainly just like, oh.

Yeah, there's a man hanging within two feet of your window. A little unsettling.

And he looks. What's the word? Like he could have been a rock star.

Okay. Okay, great.

In his earlier days.

Right.

And rock stars are.

He looks kind of counterculture.

I guess so. But I like him a lot.

Yeah. He's your guardian angel.

Yeah.

He's here to protect me.

Minimally. He is a deterrent for anyone that would be trying to peep in. Because there's someone on patrol.

I know.

Yeah.

I really want to know more about him.

Let's find out.

Okay.

Let's do a spin off podcast guard called Monica's Guardian Angel.

Oh, my God. And what if I find out he's quite a history of marrying him? Well, like people who get attracted to prisoners.

Oh, yeah. Right.

Yeah. Which we think maybe I could. Right, We've said that.

The tiger fantasy.

Exactly.

Okay.

I tried really hard to find what percentage of conversations and couples are purely logistical. I could not find that number. But then I did find on Pew Research, there's so many statistics about couples and technology and how many people share email and share calendars. Yeah, share calendars. Exactly. But also sharing email is interesting.

That wouldn't be for me.

Yeah. It says 27% of Internet users and couples share. Share an email account with their partner.

Eric and Molly share like their imessage and their. Yeah, I have. Again, I have that. I had no privacy as a kid. It's just huge to me. I have nothing to hide. But I also just. I want something in life to be mine.

I get it. I have that too. Even though I did have privacy. But I like having my own space and stuff. Stuff.

Yeah. Like I have a journal. I don't hide it. But I would be pissed if someone read it.

Pissed.

I have nothing. Like Kristen could read the whole thing. I'm not getting divorced. There's Nothing I'm gonna get. But. But just.

Yeah.

I am entitled to a place that's my mind.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like if someone reads your journal, that's the biggest sin. Betrayal. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's add to the equation that I would also feel like it would violate the conf I have with the other people I communicate with. Like, when you're in a friendship with me, it shouldn't be assumed that you're also exposing everything to Kristen. So if you write me an email about something that's going on with you, I would feel like I have violated our bond by having invited a third person in that I didn't clear with you.

Yeah. I find this to be an interesting part of being single.

Oh, sure. Is that married people pretty much tell each other everything.

Yeah. And it's like we have to assume that when you're telling one person in the couple that the other person is privy to that knowledge. And I. I really hate that.

Yes.

I often. If I am going to confide in someone in a couple, I'll say, please don't tell blank.

Right.

Please keep this between.

I at least earned my honors when I had enormously powerful information about someone that I did not share until that person ultimately did. And it was months and months and months.

Yes. I trust you.

It's also. I'm lucky. Right. So some partners, when they found out I had known that thing for five months, would have been very mad at me.

Yeah.

And to Kristen's credit, she was like, you're a very good friend. I think if you have the type of partner that's going to put you through hell when they find you out that you knew something.

Yeah.

I don't know what choices you.

You have. Yeah.

I'm. I'm acknowledging my privilege.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing. That's why therapists are so great, because you can tell them anything. Yeah. Okay. 11% of social network site users in a marriage or committed partnership share a social media profile with their spouse or partner. Also, 11% share calendar. Online calendar. 67% of committed couples have shared a page password with partner or spouse. An online password. Yeah. It's all interesting. Okay, well, that's it.

That was all.

Yes, it was indeed.

Are you going to tell me? Oh, sorry.

I just, you know, I just need. I just can only take so much of him.

He's hard for you. He has made you laugh sometimes.

He does make me laugh.

He does.

But he's also like. He does. He feels predatorial. It's weird.

Cuz. He thinks you're great.

No, that's gas. That's not. Also, that's nice if he thinks I'm great, but I shouldn't engage with someone who I know is problematic just because they think I'm great.

You think he's low status?

No.

Here we go. You're a victim of your own.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Where do you grow up? I'm scared to know.

In the woods.

Oh.

I like when you ask him questions.

I'm asking you.

I can't really communicate directly.

I don't know about him till I know.

I know.

I really can't answer that until, like, I wouldn't have said he grew up in the woods, but as soon as he started talking, I found out. Oh, yeah, of course. He grew up in the woods.

Yeah, I know. I don't want to communicate with him directly.

Okay, but do you want to use Proxy?

Yeah.

Should you ask Wobby Wob questions and then he asked me?

No, I ask you and then you talk to him and then he responds.

Okay, well, I love you. This has been a fun morning.

Yeah. Great morning. And it's only 1050.

Where do we go from here? I know. I have anxiety about the rest of this date. All right.

Love you. Love you.

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