Empowering Women Entrepreneurs: Insights from Camille Burns and Linda Hamilton

Welcome to Balancing Acts. I'm your host, Linda Hamilton. The inspiration for Balancing Acts came from my owning a CPA firm in New York City for 30 years. You know, balancing the books or your balance sheet, but all business owners know it's about so much more than the numbers. Juggling priorities for your time, for your money, balancing work-life, family, friends. We do have lives and managing growth. While maintaining profits. We have a special guest with us today who knows a great deal about helping women business owners succeed and grow. I'm so thrilled to have Camille Burns with us, the CEO of Women Presidents Organization, fondly known as WPO by its members. Camille spearheads initiatives to empower second-stage entrepreneurs globally with a passion for women's economic development. Through entrepreneurship, Camille's expertise has been featured in Fast Company, Forbes, and other major publications. She's a sought-after speaker at prestigious events and has received recognition including the Women Elevating Women Annual Award and induction into the Enterprising Women's Hall of Fame. She holds a BA in sociology and an MBA from Baruch College, and Camille is also a dear friend. Camille, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you so much, Linda. So happy to be here.

So WPO is a peer advisory organization. Uh, I happen to be a member of both a New York chapter and a Broward, Florida chapter. They're kind of like my advisory board. But can you tell us, what is a peer advisory, um, organization? What kind of a model is it and how does it work? And how is it different from a networking organization?

Sure. So there, there's quite a bit of difference, I think, between a networking organization and peer advisory. Peer advisory is really a space to come with other people who understand you. So people that you would consider your peers, um, whether you wanna call them like-minded individuals or just other people who are sharing the same experiences and similar types of opportunities that you're going through. The way our groups are structured, they get together every month, and it is, it's like having that board of advisors of other women CEOs, presidents of multimillion-dollar companies that you can get together with and talk about what's going on in your business, process issues. Also, being women, talk about all aspects of your life because, you know, Linda, as a, as a CEO, as an entrepreneur, but also as a woman, you may still have children, you may still have parents, you may have family obligations as well. So really being able to balance all of that and having other women who understand you and can talk you through. Um, the other thing with a peer advisory group like WPO is that there's no competitors in the room, so you feel super safe talking about whatever's going on. That's a really important piece of the WPO experience. But you also have women at the table with all sorts of different areas of expertise. So you may be talking about an issue you're going through, and you've got an accountant like you, Linda, at the table, or you have a marketing expert or manufacturing expert or whatnot. And so you can really get kind of that outside perspective on, on what dealing with in your business.

Thank you. And that's well said. And, uh, not having competitors does make a difference because you want to share challenges, because if you don't share challenges, it's very difficult, uh, to grow and balance. So it is a safe place to be able to do that. Um, what are some of the advantages and unique perspectives women bring to entrepreneurship and to business leadership?

You know, I think it's an interesting question. I've spent basically my entire career working with women, so I, I don't have a ton of comparison with men, but I do think I think that women bring a very unique perspective. I think women just come from a different life experience. I think women, no matter what, bring the whole person to their leadership and bring who they are as a, as a human in every aspect of their life into running a company. I don't want to stereotype, but I do think that women can sometimes create more of a cooperative environment, can help create a different kind of culture, can sometimes be a little bit more empathetic leaders. I think that one of the things we've talked about over the past number of years, I think really brought to the forefront by Brené Brown, is that vulnerability aspect. And I do think that women are sort of inherently good at talking about maybe being a little bit more honest about what they're feeling and what they're going through and being that kind of authentic, vulnerable leader.

Yes, empathy. There's something you have to balance as well. When you own a business because you do need empathy, but you are running a company.

Yeah.

And it does have performance metrics and it has to serve clients. So that's another thing I think women in particular have to balance. But today I think men look at the cultures of their businesses in the same way, um, for being efficient. Um, what would you say are some of the common challenges women business owners in the $1 million to $10 million level face? Because WPO is second stage entrepreneurs.

I, I think that what happens to a lot of women business owners— first of all, Linda, I, I— you may know these statistics, but only about 2% of women-owned businesses will ever even generate a million dollars. So it's a very small percentage of women business owners that ever get to that multi-million dollar level. And that's a, you know, another conversation we could have. There's a variety of reasons for that. But once you get to that multi-million dollar level, A, there's fewer women, so you have fewer women that you know in your community, in your friendship group that really understand you and really have that perspective of being a woman business owner. Um, I think that there are— whether, whether it's a woman-owned business or a male-owned business, there tends to be sort of plateaus in business, right, where it's really hard to get to a million, then you kind of get to that million-dollar mark and it's hard to get from a million to 5 million and, and so on, because you have to change the way you run your business. You know what the way your business was structured and how you ran it to get it to $1 million is very different than what you need to get to $10 million or $20 million and beyond. So I think being able to, uh, look at the infrastructure and make the changes you need to continue to grow and scale is huge. We also know women have many, many more challenges accessing capital. So whether it's through financial institutions, whether it's through, you know, other angel investing or venture capital or any kind of funding, um, the, the challenges for women are far greater. And then when you're talking about women of color, it's even much greater than that. So women have a harder time accessing the kind of capital that you might need to scale on a, you know, to scale to be a much bigger business.

And what are the ways, some of the ways that WPO helps the women, its members overcome some of these challenges? What are some of the things WPO does?

We use in our, in our roundtable format, we really use an experience sharing model. So one of the ways that WPO members help each other is by sharing their own experience. So if you're sitting at a table with someone who's been in your shoes before, whatever you're going through, and they share their experience in that situation or a similar situation, you can really learn, um, not only what they did well but what they did not well, what they might have done differently. You can learn from each other's mistakes. And so having that ability to share experience and learn and process what, what other people went through helps you sort of think through whatever challenge or opportunity you have in your business and sort of address it from, from a different angle. There's also just having this safe space of peers where you can go and ask for anything. And there's— I find within the WPO community, there's also very a sort of trusted space of resource sharing. So when you're dealing with something in your business and you need, you know, a specific type of attorney or whatever you need, the women in your group and the women within the WPO community will certainly have recommendations, referrals, so you can get access to people with the kind of expertise and experience and knowledge that might be harder when you're just trying to reach out to your own network.

Yeah, thank you. And that sharing does— as a member, I will tell you, we do share a great deal and learn from each other. And there is nothing like learning from experience. Experts are great, but there is just something much more concrete about experiencing something and learning through someone else's eyes as well, uh, and what they might have done differently. Um, what advice would you give to a, a business owner, whether, uh, male or female, who wants to get to the $1 million mark? Because the numbers are small for women, but I think they're probably small across the board for entrepreneurs in general, uh, as to whether they make it to a million or even, um, you know, stay in business. So what advice might you share, uh, in getting there?

First of all, I always tell people to find people who have what you want. So as you're going out to events or you're reading books, anything, you're on LinkedIn, try to connect with people who have what you want. And that gives you this ability to have relationships, build networks of people who've been there and done that. Um, I think there's plenty of organizations, and WPO is one, but there are other, many other peer organizations. There are other networking organizations. But I think it's really important to surround yourself with people that you admire, with people you can go to and sort of ask them what they did, how did they get there, what kind of, how did they break down those barriers. Um, I also always tell people that you do need that expertise. You need the, you need a good accountant, you need a good lawyer, you need the people in your back corner that have that expertise to help you as you're growing and scaling your company, help you think about how you're going to structure the company so you can bring it to the next level. Uh, and you can get that also— there's coaches out there. Often I think it helps to have a CEO coach or a business coach that can help you build that kind of strategy that you need and really make sure that you're, you're building organization and not just sort of taking everything as it comes, but you're able to develop a strategic direction for the organization. Because if you really want to grow, scale, build your company, you've got to have that, that strategy in place of how you want to get there.

Yeah, thank you. And, and I think finding an organization that can give you support— there are many, um, online, in person— and I think it, it can make a, a big difference in helping you. Um, we're going to come back and talk to Camille after a short commercial break, and we're going to talk about the 50 Fastest Awards for, um, the 50 fastest women, um, grown companies. Welcome back. And, um, we're back talking to Camille, uh, now we want to talk about the WPO's award for the 50 fastest growing women-owned or women-led businesses. It is sponsored by JPMorgan Chase, and the, uh, annual awards, I think it's 17 years, is coming up in May.

Camille Burns, WPO: So 17 years ago, if you can remember back a little bit, Linda, the, the perception of women-owned businesses was very different. There wasn't a lot of media attention for women-owned businesses at that time. If there was, it was very much looking at women owning mom-and-pop shops and things like that. And What we really wanted to do was create some visibility for women that were running fast-growth companies, for women that may have been in all sorts of different industries, you know, quote unquote non-traditional industries, and just create a way to put this list together, have this award ceremony, and bring some attention to the women that were doing really incredible things and at that time weren't really being noticed for it.

What are some of the interesting industries or different industries, non-traditional as you say, that you see being involved with our past winners?

You know, it, it's changed over the years. I think that obviously, you know, there's always tech sector, construction, manufacturing, things that people may not think of, at least 17 years ago, certainly didn't think about women running those types of companies. But it's really all over the map. I mean, I can tell you, you know, we've had tractor companies on there before and we've had all sorts of service industries and it really varies. One of the things I'm seeing is I am seeing a change in who's coming up in the top 10 of that list over the years. It used to be, if I go back many years ago, even 10, 5 to 10 years ago, it was a lot of service industries, a lot of staffing, a lot of professional service type businesses that were growing fast that were women-owned or women-led. And now what we're seeing is actually in the past few years, um, a lot more apparel, more product companies, and a lot more healthcare. And women who've really stepped into the healthcare space and have just grown these incredibly fast growth businesses, often we're seeing addressing healthcare issues around women and surrounding women that may have been overlooked in the past. And these women had the foresight to start a company focusing on women's health and have really been able to skyrocket and grow because of it.

Yes. Having foresight, uh, in your business model, uh, can make really have the, the next great innovative idea. What would you say is the average, uh, growth rate of these companies and what's the criteria to make the list?

Sure. So the criteria is it looks at a 5-year period. So you have to have started 5 years ago or whenever the list is run and have a company that was $500,000 at that time to start. And then we look at the growth trajectory over the next 5 years. Uh, it's a combination, the formula of percentage growth and real growth. So it really varies. The reason we did that is, you know, there's a big difference between growing from 1 to 10 and from 10 to 100 million or, or whatever. And so we wanted to make sure— we, we wanted to even the playing field so it wasn't just the raw numbers. So we'll have women on that list that have grown from, you know, $500,000 to $10 million over 5 years, and then we'll have women on that list that have grown from $400 million to, you know, $1.2 billion over the last 5 years and sort of everything in between. So the growth trajectory is, is that combination of those two factors, the real growth and the percentage growth.

And when once the award is given, I know that at our annual conference, the 50 Fastest Award winners are introduced to us, and there's often some conversations with them. What would you say is shared? Of course, we haven't had this year's yet, but over the past years, what are some of the strategies they've shared about their business models, particularly about growing quickly?

You know, when you look at their responses over the years to some of these questions and some of the conversations, panel discussions and things we've had, you do really see themes. So when you ask them, um, and every year we ask these kind of questions as part of the application process, you know, what do you, what do you think attributed to your success? Or how did you, what factors led to that fast growth? And you really see a lot of similarities. Uh, one is that the women who make this list always talk about resilience and perseverance and how they stuck with things. They pushed through, you know, any, anybody who's ever led a business, and it doesn't matter how big or successful your business is, you know, it's a, it looks like this. You know, nobody's business sort of rises up like in, you know, a straight line. It's a bumpy road. And so a lot of the people who make the list, a lot of the women who've, who've grown so rapidly, talk about, you know, those bumps along the way and how they picked themselves back up, or how they use those as opportunities for innovation and sort of rethinking what their business model is. So that's another thing you see that comes up a lot, is that not only ability to be innovative, but the ability to adapt. And I think we've seen that so much over the last few years where business owners really had to adapt their business models. And, and I think with what's happening with technology, it's just going to be happening at a more rapid pace. And so it's really important as a business owner just to, as you said, you got to look at the market, you've got to see what's happening out there and make those changes when when it's time to make those changes. Um, the other thing I see a lot in the women on this list is they talk a lot about their customers and having a very customer-centric approach. So putting what their customers want first and really caring about their customers, but also caring about their teams and making sure that culture is really important, making sure that they value their team members, that they care about their team members. And so a lot of the women who make this list talk a lot about the team that they've worked really hard to create and how important it is to, as you grow fast, maintain that culture and maintain that environment that has helped you get where you are.

Yes, culture can make a huge difference, the morale of your team and, and being, you know, just being able to, um, to face rapid growth because if your morale is bad, um, that is definitely impacts your growth and your customers feel it. So that's really important. Um, and I think the difference between strategically planned growth or whether, you know, you're scrambling to keep up with growth can also have an impact. Would you say that most of your winners have, um, raised outside capital or did they bootstrap?

Most bootstrapped. Um, a lot of friends and family, a lot of personal savings, a lot of credit cards. You see that. Um, I have seen a shift. So in the early years, everyone had bootstrapped. You know, you'd look at these early lists and it was almost all of them had either tapped into friends and family, used their personal savings, etc. Now you're seeing more women getting outside capital. Um, you're seeing more loans, you're seeing more angel investing, things like that. Um, a little bit of venture capital on for some of these women. So you're seeing more of that coming in, but the vast majority still build with their own funds, credit card debt, things like that.

Yeah, I think that's still common. And, and we hope to talk more about, um, access to capital in the future. With, uh, looking back, um, what do some of these winners share maybe that they wish they had done differently? What did they wish they knew? Um, and how would they maybe wish they'd known it when they just started to scale?

Mm-hmm. So there's a few things, again, some themes I see coming up over the years. Um, one is that I see often they talk about investment and hiring decisions and how if they could go back, they would've invested in technology sooner. They would've invested in marketing sooner. They also would've invested in people sooner. So you hear a lot of 50 Fastest Winners, Winners talk about how they would have brought on that CFO they thought they couldn't afford, or they would have brought on the CMO they thought they couldn't afford, or COO or whatever, that once they invested in that leadership team and brought in that expertise, they were able to grow exponentially and in a way they just weren't before. So if they could go back again, they'd make those kind of scary investments that, you know, you feel like you can't afford at the time. But once they made those investments, they really saw their businesses take off. Another thing that you see come up is that they would've put more energy into strategy and planning and building strategic plans and executing. And once they sort of got on that track of really strategically thinking about their business, they were able to grow much more significantly and in a, in a healthier way. Another thing that comes up a lot is financial management and tax strategies. That if they could go back, they, again, going back to expertise, they would've brought on that expertise. They would've brought in the, you know, accountants, people like you, the experts who could help them think about how they're structuring their business financially, but also making sure that they're set up in a way and that they're doing everything they should be that's in the best interest of the organization. And one other thing I see in, is, and, and I don't know if this is with women or men and women, it would be hard to know, but, um, some of what you see is that personal development and also just confidence that like they wish in the early days they'd had the kind of confidence that they have today, and they wish that they didn't have that self-doubt in the beginning because once they really had faith in their self, their business really took off. And perhaps they could have invested in some personal development or something that would have helped with that confidence or that imposter syndrome or whatever it, whatever it was.

And the great thing today is if you need help, you can plan to grow. You know, the accountant you've been with for, for years, you might need to, to seek some outside consultation to help you plan strategic growth. And today there's fractional CFOs, there's fractional CEOs. You can get pretty much fractional help for anything. But the thought is to be open-minded, to help you plan your growth so you can minimize the scrambling. And that might help with bootstrapping as well. You don't have to go with full-time help. But thank you, Camille Burns. We're going to take a short commercial break and then we're going to come back and talk to you again about another program that WPO does about growing and personal and business transitions. Welcome back to Balancing Acts, and I'm pleased to continue our discussion with Camille Burns. We're going to talk about the Leading Business and Personal Transitions program. This is actually a collaboration between the WPO and Harvard Business School. Camille, what inspired this collaboration, uh, and the creation of this program?

So we've had a long relationship with Harvard Business School, particularly the executive education area. Um, I, you may have heard, but others may have not, there's a program called the OPM program at Harvard, and it's a program that focuses on CEOs, business owners, managers of major large privately held companies. So This program— Linda Applegate headed up this program for many years, and she's been a longtime professor at Harvard Business School and a longtime partner of WPO. So we've had this fantasy a long time of doing a program, a shorter program like a mini OPM, just for WPO members. So we started this program last year on campus, and it's a 3-day program really focused on business and personal transitions. And so using that Harvard case study model, it's a 3-day program, pretty intensive learning. And one of The difference is between the other Harvard programs is everyone in the audience is a woman business owner, woman CEO or president of company.

And so, you know, the word transitions is in the, in the title. So can you explain what is the focus on the transitions both in the business and the personal context?

Sure. So we found over the last number of years that more and more of our members were talking about transitions and whether that was thinking about exiting now, whether that was thinking about a future exit, starting to prepare. And, and you know this, Linda, as an exit planner, as someone who works with people exiting businesses, that often you need to start thinking about that exit 5, 7 years in advance. So we were starting to see that transition conversation coming up, and whether it was leaving the company, finding a successor, um, private equity, whatever it looked like, those conversations were coming up a lot. We also found that there were a lot of our members who were sometimes transitioning into different roles in the company. We're seeing more and more in the United States women taking over big family businesses, multigenerational family businesses, and stepping into that leadership role and having that transition as well. So we sort of look at it from all of the different perspectives of transition. So it could be stepping into that role of running a company you may have been in a senior leadership position of, but now you're becoming the CEO, or you have become the CEO. You're transitioning your company, you're doing different things in your company, um, launching new products or innovations, uh, reaching new markets, or you're thinking about what is that transition out of my company. And so looking at it both from the business perspective and all the different angles, but also thinking about the personal journey, because as you know, working with companies thinking about exiting, leaving your company or exiting your company is a huge personal transition for a CEO. And so that you can't disregard that aspect when you're talking about transitioning your company.

That is so critical. And for business owners, you know, I am an accountant and a certified exit planner, but I'm also a business owner. Running a business for a very long time, our identities are kind of wrapped up in our businesses. So thinking about leaving is something that you just don't want to do overnight, and planning for it can make a huge difference on the success of it for you personally and, and for your employees and this business that you put your whole heart and soul into. How would you say, um, like, for example, what's the type of case studies do they use to help people think about Trans So we went through a number of different case studies.

Some of the case studies were looking at more of the internal team side. So what a leader did or how the leadership transitioned internally to hopefully bring their employees to the next level, create more of a culture for innovation, a culture for change, so that the company, as they're trying to change or innovate, had that kind of culture within the organization. Some of it was looking at some case studies on the female leader or the leader themself and transitioning personally. And it may not even be leaving your business, but just to continuing to grow and develop as a person. We did do an intense case study on a family business transition with the next generation taking over and some of those family dynamics. So we looked at a number of different case studies and that model is so effective in that you get to analyze another business and then through that conversation in a room full of 70 business owners, so much information comes out and so many interesting perspectives come out where you really just— you learn so much from not only reading the case, but you learn so much from the conversation in the room.

Yeah, that's great. I haven't attended, but I have heard from many friends how fantastic it is. How would you say the program helps the participants maybe bring in their personal story or their own vision as a CEO? Because leadership, you know, you talked about culture. Leadership makes a difference in how you're going to successfully prepare your company for the next phase.

I think one of the things that comes out so much in this program is the focus of your organization is the mission and staying core to who you are and what your company is. And again, going back to culture, if you're not passionate about the mission, if you're not focused on the mission of your company, you can't create that kind of culture that's also focused on that as well. I just find that for women or for leaders in general, that having that passion about the work you're doing and really that passion and excitement about the direction you want to take the company, what you able— what you want to achieve, what the purpose of your product or service is, is so important. And you just see that in the conversations around the room is how much that Passion helps businesses take their companies to the next level, helps business owners get there.

And this, the sharing your vision so that, and your mission, the, the co— your employees, your whole team actually needs to understand the purpose of your company. We are here to serve, provide a service, to provide value to our customers, to our clients, whatever that may be. Really having an understanding of of who your ideal customer is and what benefit you bring can make a difference. If you're able to step back in a program like this Harvard program and really take a second look at that, because things change very quickly now, um, that's gonna help your team also feel a part of, uh, an important part of the, uh, organization and, and the wheel, so to speak, rather than just someone who shows up for work. So that's great. Um, how would you say the program addressed the actual topic of exit planning? Did they share any, um, specific strategies for what these business owners would do? And I assume most of them are not really close to being ready to exit.

You know, it varied in the group. I mean, there was one woman who had to leave a little early because she was closing. So it, you know, you sort of had every extreme. But one of the things I think that we've seen a lot more in recent years is talking about the exit sooner. And so one of the things we talked about in the business is you, you have to start thinking about that stuff. Um, one of the conversations I thought was interesting around, uh, succession, whether it's a family business or a business where you're, uh, bringing in a successor, you have a successor in mind, is the communication piece. And how often— one of the professors, David Ager, is a longtime expert in family business— and how often there's conversations that people think are being had and aren't being had. And so when you actually sit the, the leadership team down, people have different ideas of what's happening and they think they've been communicating, but they haven't. And how important in when you're talking about succession in your model, how important it is to make sure that you're having really clear conversations and everybody's expectations are where they should be. One of the things we also talked about, Linda, is when you're thinking about selling your company, I mean, obviously making sure that you're thinking about it far enough in advance that your— your company is structured the way it needs to be and that you have those kind of experts involved. So experts like you, experts like Open Conversations with Bankers, having people look at your financials, looking at your business to make sure that if you want to sell and what you want to sell for, that you're at a place to be able to do that. And if not, let's figure out what you need to do with the management team, with your financial structure, et cetera, to make sure that you can get there. One other session I thought was great is there was a session also on getting on boards. So whether you're looking at private boards or, or public company boards, just how do you present yourself? Because often we have these skills, we have this expertise, that we think is very valuable, but it may not be that valuable in the context of all of the people who can also bring that expertise. How do you position yourself as unique and as different and as able to bring value to a board and finding those specific board opportunities that make sense for what you can actually bring to the table? Because you've probably seen this with business owners as well. It's important to start thinking about these things before you sell the company. Because when you sell the company, you know, you, you need to have other things going on, or as you said, your whole identity flips upside down and you've gotta figure out sort of who you are and, and what you're doing with your time when all of a sudden you're leaving this company you've been CEO of for 30 years.

And when I coach business owners on exit planning, I, I really take the time to work through how they feel about their company, what changes they're willing to make. Because, uh, even if you're a small company, you're not thinking about exiting. But when it comes to exiting, more than 50% of exits are actually unplanned and maybe due to a sudden event. There can be different reasons. There can be disagreements, there can be, um, uh, separations. But the important thing is to get your mindset in, into thinking about how do you prepare the company for growth? There are things that drive the value of a business, whether you're even transitioning to your employees. What's going to make the business successful over time? What kind of growth does it need? What kind of profit does it need? And having— surrounding yourself with advisors, because it does take a team of advisors. When we look at the taxes, you know, we might want to say, well, everybody's working remotely now. What kind of state tax nexus are you having that might be— you might need to look at before somebody would buy it or before your employees take over? So there's a lot of planning that actually goes into it. My last question would be, does WPO have any post-program support and resources?

Sure. So part of this program we do is in partnership with Wells Fargo. So one of the aspects of this program is able to develop that relationship with Wells Fargo and have them help you on that journey if you need it as you're leaving the program. Also just creating a community of the women who've been there. So in 3 days, there's a tremendous amount of bonding when you're living in you're on campus in the executive dorms, you're living in living groups, you're getting to know all of these other women from, in our case, from all over the world. And so there's this community that's created where, you know, they've, they've put together a WhatsApp group already so that they can stay in touch, ask each other questions, reach out to each other if they're trying to expand to a new market and kind of find that expertise within the group. And As WPO, one of our goals is to be able to continue the program and kind of pay it forward. So we have talked about a 2.0. I'm not sure when or if we're going to make that happen this year or next year, but I know that the women who've done the last 2 years of programs really would love the opportunity to go back.

And that's very exciting. We're gonna get ready to, after exit planning, we're gonna take a short commercial break. Um, but I wanted to say that exit planning is something you don't wanna leave till you're ready to exit. It is something, it's great business strategy, it's a great growth strategy. And so you wanna look at it, uh, in advance. Welcome back. I'm happy to continue our conversation with Camille Burns, the CEO of the Women Presidents' Organization. What do we wanna talk about now is, um, as businesses grow, even from early on, even if they're in the startup phase, um, there are different types of support they need. We talked about, um, having a peer advisory group, but there are coaches, business coaches, there are mentors and consultants. How do you know when you need help and what kind of support you need?

I do think— I think you have to look at what are you looking for, and you have to sort of take a deep dive into what you want to get out of the relationship. I think that coaches can be extremely beneficial when you're looking at yourself as a leader. Um, I know that when I became CEO in the beginning of 2020, I'd been with the organization in a long time. I'd been a COO, I'd been executive vice president, but I did have a coach for that first year and a half, and it was just so extremely helpful in shifting the way I thought about the organization, you know, going from being in the weeds and the operations and really making sure that all these things were happening to thinking a little bit more strategically, a little bit bigger picture about the business, and, and thinking about that direction of the organization. And I think having a coach just helped me, quite frankly, with confidence. It helps with having somebody to go to with and have that kind of one-on-one intimate support. Um, I think with mentors, those are the people you want to look up to. Those are the people who have what you want. Those are the people you can call for advice, you can reach out to and, and get that kind of advice and inspiration. People you feel safe with and comfortable with, but they may not have they may have a very different area of expertise or more of, um, a focus. Like, they might be someone in your industry where it's very focused to your industry, whereas a coach may be looking at things from a little bit larger or broader perspective. I think in terms of consultants, I look at consultants when you need a very specific type of learning or advice and you have somebody who really understands something very specific that, you know, so whether it's the marketing aspect, whatever it is within your company, or it's the operational systems within your company, someone who's coming in with a strategy, whatever it is, a very specific type of expertise. And often with consultants, you also may have a consulting company behind them. They may have different resources than a coach may have, or even a mentor.

Interesting. You know, I started my entrepreneurial journey owning a CPA firm. But I'm also a business owner. I happen to be a coach, a mentor, and a consultant as well, because I also do exit planning. I do different things that have evolved over my journey and personal development. Um, when you look at coaches, you know, athletes have coaches, right? They're usually to improve performance. And, um, how, how did you go about finding the coach that was the right fit for you? Coaches usually help you focus and identify on problems by asking questions, but they're very performance-driven.

For me, I reached out to, to my network. I mean, one of the benefits of having worked in this space for 23 years is I have a pretty large network of a lot of successful people and a lot of people with access to people. So I reached out, used contacts I know, and was connected with a woman that was really excellent for me. She had the business expertise that we needed, but also understood that nonprofit space. She'd worked with presidents of universities and, and different cultural institutions and different nonprofits. Because as you know, there are some— even though I try to run WPO like a business, there are aspects that are specific to running a nonprofit. And she, she was really focused with me on that transition to becoming a CEO. And but it was also I became CEO in January 2020. So the, you know, there were a lot of things going on if you go back to 2020. And she was just tremendously helpful with me with everything that was going on in the world. And I just would, you know, call her and sort of dump on her everything that was going on. And she helped me think through problems. As you said, she asked incredible questions. But she also, you know, another thing a coach does is they hold you accountable.

Accountable.

So if you talk about something, you can't come back week or every other week or however often you're meeting and not do anything. You have to take those steps, you have to take the actions. And I think coaches are really incredible in making sure you stay on track.

I think that's one of the biggest difference between a mentor and a coach because there is that accountability. And when you're looking for a coach, you have to decide how much accountability you actually want. And it is about helping you find solutions to, to questions by asking you the right questions. What would, um, in terms of mentors, I know you've had many mentors because WPO is full of, um, women who've grown $10 million businesses, $20 million businesses, $50 million businesses, and even more. Um, I see a mentor when I do it myself as someone willing to share our wisdom, our knowledge, our vast experience with those who, who, who need that kind of guidance. It's a different kind of a guidance. It's not about accountability. It's about professional and personal development. What would you say about some of the mentors you've worked with?

First of all, I think sometimes you need different mentors for different times in your life. And I think that you meet people along the way that become, become mentors. Sometimes you sort of seek them out and plan that. Sometimes it happens more organically. I think for me, one of the greatest benefits of having mentors in my life is, first of all, people who believed in me when I didn't believe in myself. So having that kind of champion, someone who's successful, who you look up to, but also has faith in you and believes in you and can kind of push you to want to move forward. I think that, you know, mentors just have that source of inspiration, right? So they, they can inspire you, they can make you excited, they can get you really excited about your vision or what you want to do with the organization. But yeah, to your point, Linda, I think that mentors are great for inspiration. They're great to go to with specific questions. They're great for feedback. But I, you know, I think as you change in life and you move into different roles or you take on new responsibilities, it's helpful to find new mentors along the way and find different people at different phases of your life that may be able to support you where you are at that time and help you think a little differently and just kind of have your back. I mean, that's one of the great things about mentors, at least in my experience, is I always felt like I had these incredible people who had my back.

Yeah, thank you. That's important. Consultants, you know, they're different. They're, as you said, a specific task. Um, they might be process improvement consultants, they might be something about exit planning. It could be about marketing, about sales. But one thing business owners have, whether they're a million-dollar business or whether they're $250,000 or $500,000, there's a lot of things they don't have a big team. So when do you look outside for a consultant to help you accomplish something? There's usually a specific goal. That you want done.

I think, Linda, you just said it. When you've got something in your business that you want to bring to the next level and you may not have the ability to bring in a team or bring in, you know, the kind of talent that it would take or the expertise or experience, I think consultants can be fantastic. I, I think also if you want to make a shift in your businesses in any way, as you said, you're thinking about, um, your exit or your operational efficiency, and you know, to be able to bring your business to next level, you need to look at your operations, you need to adjust how you're doing things internally. That's where a consultant can just be fantastic. Someone who can come in, have that outside perspective, you know, not— sometimes it's tough when you're inside of it to think about things from the outside. You know, you're so in the weeds and you're so in the details. It's, it's so helpful to have someone come in from the outside and be like, have you looked at it this way? Or bring in another experience to kind of help you build the organization in or take the organization in a different direction.

Exactly. Camille, how can people find you, whether that's on LinkedIn or your website? Tell us how we can find you.

Definitely. Well, our website is women-presidents.com. You can find us there and everything about WPO there. You can always find me on LinkedIn and it's just Camille Burns. And I am on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. I'm not on a ton of other social media, but the WPO is. So you can find WPO, you can click on our website and follow us on a number of different platforms and just keep up with everything that we're doing.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your insights. I, for one, was reminded, uh, how often as business owners we're in the weeds. And so it's important to find out what kind of help we need. What support do we need? Do we need accountability? Do we need a coach? Do we need a mentor? Um, for business owners listening, you know, you can often find some mentorship at SCORE. Look in your local communities for help for those who want to give back, who've already built businesses. So thank you so much for joining us today. I hope that you'll come back for our next episode of Balancing Acts for another insightful topic. Thank you again for listening.

Thank you so much, Linda.

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