Should Married Couples Schedule Sex? | Rejection, Intimacy & Desire in Marriage

Yeah, women have like this weird thing where they want like safety and security and they also like want the fantasy and you're like, does that exist in the same? That's why they go cheat.

Garrett! Yes, yes. I want you to do that. I come home, I want to see you running down the hall to me. Well, here we are, another episode of the Date Your Wife podcast. My name is Garrett J White. I'm here with my lovely and talented, beautiful wife, Danielle K. White.

You make me come do this podcast now after the gym, so I'm officially like in a hat every week.

But so do I— do I make you do it? Yeah, is that what happened? I make you do it?

You, you were like, we got to go straight from the gym, and then I'm like, well, then I will be in a hat and gym clothes.

Let's get down to the truth of the fact that it takes you an That's an incredibly long time to get moving in the morning.

No, I just have my routines. I like to— it doesn't really take me that long. But usually I'm during school, I'm taking the kids to school, and then I come back and I kind of pick up the house. I go through some emails. I like to ice my face.

You've been doing the mom routine.

I know.

School's starting again.

School's starting again. We're back in the mom routine. It's a lot of— it's like, You know, I've been doing a lot of like, I feel like I'm like a full-time mom right now.

Mm-hmm.

And like part of me likes it and I'm like, this is like, it's kind of relaxing and it's kind of easy. But I feel like it's not like, there's a piece of me where I'm like, I'm not getting any smarter doing this. Like maybe I am, maybe I'm getting more patient. I just feel like it doesn't challenge me. So I don't know if I could do just full-time mom, but then like, Yesterday, well, our washer broke and we— so I usually have a cleaner that does my laundry. And yesterday was probably the first time I've folded laundry in like 10 years. And if that triggers any women, like, you should hire it out. It'll change your life. But I was sitting there folding laundry, watching a Kevin Hart movie, like just laughing my butt off in the middle of the afternoon. And I was like, this is nice, but I don't think I would want to do that all the time. Like—

Like every day, sit and fold laundry?

Yeah. Or like even once a week.

No.

You struggled to even make that happen. Back in the day when I was trying to push for you to have somebody help with laundry. If you remember, we went back. How we got to cleaners and we got to people folding laundry was because I— you would say I had to do all this stuff today. And that was one of the reasons why you were feeling tired and fatigued and less desiring of the physicality. And so I was like, okay, all right. So the issue is laundry. The issue is cleaning. Okay, good. We're going to hire that out right now. And we hired out. But you struggled.

You struggled in the beginning.

I did.

Well, the thing is, is I'm like, if— I mean, even back then I was still working doing hair, but I wasn't doing hair like full-time. And I just thought that's so stupid to hire something out if I have time to do it. And you're like, well, if it stresses you out. And I was just like, no, no. And like, I fought you on it for years. And I even like struggled. I remember this is one thing you used to tell me. You'd be like, why are you cleaning before the cleaners? And I was like, What are you talking about? But like growing up, that's what we did. We picked up the house and then the cleaners were only responsible for like cleaning the toilets, like deep cleaning. So they didn't like do any like, like in fact, I remember growing up we had cleaners that if you left a cup on the table, they would just wipe around the cup.

Really?

Yes. It was so weird. And I don't know if that's just because we didn't pay them a lot or what it was, but like, and my mom would get so pissed. She'd be like, you have to pick up your room for the cleaners. I'm like, why do we have to pick up our room for the cleaners? So that was just kind of how I was taught. And then one day you're like, why do you— you told me, you're like, why are you picking up for cleaners? Just tell them to pick it up. And I was like, Really? And I was like, hey, pick up all the clothes, put away all the dishes. And they're like, okay. I'm like, wow, that's nice. And then one time you were like— I've always hated folding and doing laundry. It's like an all-day thing. And one day you were like, why don't you just have Jasmine do it? And I was like, she's our cleaner. She doesn't do the laundry. He's like, why don't you just ask her? And I was like, it's a good idea. And so then I started having her. But then what I realized is I hate people actually physically doing my laundry because she ruined so many things.

Oh, really?

So what I— my system, ladies, my system is I do the laundry and I like sort it, but then the cleaners clean, fold it, and put it away, which that's the part I hate doing.

So there you go.

And randomly we get— it takes them a while to figure it out when you move into a new place because you end up with my t-shirts in your drawer and your t-shirts in my drawer and our teenage daughter's t-shirts in your drawer.

It takes a minute to get it figured out. And but I just tell them every week, I'm like, this drawer is for tank tops. This drawer is for long sleeves. I, I like constantly have to course correct them. Like, and that's true with any team member. You're like, if something's bugging you, just tell them, hey. And the funny thing is, when I was doing laundry yesterday, I was like, shit, I don't know where any of this goes. And I was like, how do they fold it in such a nice little square? Mine was like, mine's crappy.

Uh, you probably fold it in an hour what takes them like 5. They, they take their time.

They take their time. I did, I did fold, I did fold like 2 loads.

Nordstrom style.

Yeah, I did fold 2 loads in 1 hour. I was really proud of myself.

I don't know how to fold. I mean, I don't know how to fold clothes decent enough, but definitely not the standard of the folding that they do.

You know what I can't figure out?

What?

And I'm sure you've noticed this too, like your sink.

What about my sink?

Like, why when you brush your teeth, I'm curious why there's like, there's do not rinse when you spit, because there's always dried toothpaste everywhere and there's always water all down the mirror. And I'm like, I would have to try to make my sink look like this.

Well, let's talk about what happens. Okay, so when you wake up, um, you just stumble around. If you wake up in the middle of the night, there's not a sense of like I should be quiet to cover for my husband while he's sleeping because so randomly do you ever find yourself in a place where you are up and I am sleeping? This does not happen. So I have had to over the years learn to be a ninja.

And so that it. So you don't use water when you're brushing teeth?

No, I use water, but I don't have a lot.

Oh, but that's why I was asking. I'm like, I know he uses water because it's on the mirror. So how is it?

There's not a lot of water in the mirror. That used to happen a lot.

So that's where I was confused. It's like there's dry toothpaste.

So I'm confident he uses water in the process. I have no idea how. I don't know how that happens. It's dark in the morning. I don't turn the lights on.

I think you spit.

I use my hands. You don't rinse? No, I rinse my mouth. For sure, I rinse my mouth. But like, I don't, I don't understand how the globs end up there. We're gonna have to put a camera up and just video it because I don't, I really don't know.

You don't rinse it. That's how it happens.

My toothbrush?

You don't rinse your toothbrush either. Ew. That is the other thing. I have a cup.

I rinse it enough.

I have a cup for your toothbrush.

I put it in there occasionally.

This is the funny thing. Every morning I go in and he doesn't rinse the toothpaste Spoolie out of his toothbrush and he doesn't put it back in the cup. I'm like, yeah, there's like— there's a cup.

I'm saving it for tomorrow. I need it for tomorrow. And again, let's come back to the point though, like, I am trying to walk lightly because you said—

But how does it— how is it noisier to put your toothbrush in the holder?

In the holder? It's probably not. I just don't think about doing it. I wake up, I wander in, I put my sweats on.

Do you notice I pick— do you notice every morning it's back in?

Do you notice that you do that once the sun is up?

You know, but I'm serious. Like, do you notice, like, when you come back to brush your teeth, you're like, how'd that get back in there?

Yeah, no, I know you put it there. I appreciate it.

I appreciate it. I wondered if you even noticed that.

I do. I mean, it's in the same place, and if you left it on the sink, I would still find it.

And then do you notice, like, when the times when I do, like, like, wipe your sink down?

Yeah, yeah. Do you notice the times when I do?

Wipe your sink down?

Listen, I have— I used to just— I'll be straight, I used to just leave shit out all the time. I didn't care. I was like, somebody else pick this up.

But now that you share a bathroom with me—

No, I just— I made a more conscious effort the last 2 years. The last 2 years, I've made a more conscious effort. I'll be walking out, I'm like, ah, there's a pile of stuff there, I should put the shoes away. So I put the shoes away, I put the stuff in the laundry. You don't notice that I do it because it's an improvement. It's like if I was 300 pounds overweight and I lost 100 pounds, you're like, he's still fat. And I'm like, yeah, but I lost 100 pounds.

Because you have always had someone do it for you. I remember in our house in California, I'd be like, Heather, do not put his stuff away. She'd go and like wipe your counters down and put away your clothes.

Yeah.

And I was like, Heather, do not do that. And she's like, no, it's fine. No, it's fine. She, like, had OCD. She's like, couldn't leave till it was cleaned up.

Why would you tell her not to do it?

Because I was like, he doesn't notice how messy he is. And then I noticed—

So you wanted me to notice?

Well, and then when we moved, I noticed you were like, man, I put my shit everywhere.

I'm like—

You really don't think I've gotten better in the last 2 years?

You have gotten better since somebody's not doing it for you.

Well, in the last 2 years, I feel like I've gotten better at doing it. I feel like I've—

Because you haven't had somebody do it for the last 2 years.

No, it's not even just that. I feel like I've literally gotten— I've mentally committed. To being better at that.

I think because it's literally you walk in your closet and you had shit everywhere.

Yeah, so I organized it up. I put it away a little bit. I put it away probably 95% more than I ever used to. I used to just leave it out for sure.

I—

that, no question about that. And I hang my towels up. I do that.

I—

listen, I have progressed. But back to my point, at nighttime when I'm trying to be quiet and I'm ninja walking, I'm having to use my cell phone just to shine— not the actual flashlight, just the shine— to try to navigate the room. I'm running night ops with the kids. If the kids wake up— how many times you woke up in the middle of the night with the kids and put them to bed?

They—

In the last 10 years.

They literally come straight to you.

Because they know you're not going to move. Which, when they come to me, what I'm saying is, like, I've had to operate in the night. So when I operate in the night, there's things like toothpaste that's going to fall out. You know what's weird?

Whenever, like, say you've gone out of town or something.

Yeah.

The kids— I've never had the kids wake up. It's like they know. They know Dad's—

Because they sleep in your bed. You fall asleep with them in the bed.

No, I can't sleep with them in my bed. But when you put them in their bed— Yes, I, I'll sometimes I'll let them fall asleep and I'll carry them into the room. I can't sleep with 2 toddlers.

You carry our kids to the bed?

Yeah, I can't sleep with 2 toddlers.

You carry Isla to bed?

Yes.

You've picked her up and carried her from the bedroom to the top bunk? You've done this?

No, not to the top bunk.

Yeah, of course you haven't.

You get—

you don't pick her up in the middle of the night and carry her anywhere.

Yes, I do.

Listen, I don't hardly travel without you.

I know.

So like, this has maybe happened twice in the last like 2 to 3 years for you.

But just to test your theory, I swear they like know.

Of course they know. Of course they know. Listen, they're going to wake up. They're going to come to me. This week alone, they've woken up 1, 2, 3, 3 different times.

Really?

Yeah. Twice in one night.

Oh, geez.

But I walk them back. I put them into bed. I have to put Charlie through the portal and the top thing, and she's half asleep. I pick her up and put her in. Sometimes we bonk her head, but nonetheless, we get it handled. We get it handled. You also realize that I do bedtime with the girls.

95% of the time. I told— we talked about this last week and I was like, hey, it's because a lot of times when you're like working late, I'm like, I've even— I've got them jammies on, fed, and I'm like, hey, do you— and you're like, come on, girls, let's go. And I'm like, we'll do like cuddle time in the bed, watch a movie or show, whatever. And then you'll be like, come on, girls, let's go.

Even the weekends I do it.

You want me to do it? I can do it.

No, I'm just saying that I was like thinking about— I just realized that I do 95% of the bedtime.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I literally, I feel like you don't spend as much time with them as I do. I thought it was something you enjoyed, but I don't mind doing it. I usually go in, brush teeth, read one story. I'm like, I usually put a timer on. If I don't put a timer on, I will fall asleep.

We're good at volleyball, but we're not good at playing on the same team.

We're not going to play on the same team?

No, like you're offense, I'm defense, or I'm defense, I'm offense, you're defense. Like, we're very good at the volleyball with the kids.

Is that not normal for parents?

I don't know. I have no idea if that's normal. I just know that we don't tend to play on the same offense with the kids. Like, if I'm on offense with the kids, you're on defense in the chair by the pool. Well, if you're on offense with the kids, which never happens—

We've talked about this. I'm sitting on defense in the chair. I literally, I feel like I, like, I had Charlie because I was like, oh, Isla needs a buddy. Not— that's not like the only reason I had her, but I was literally like, oh, we're gonna have like 2 little buddies that like can play. And you're so funny when we're at the pool. Like, when I'm at the pool and you're not there, I usually get in part of the time, not in the whole time, but I'll get in and play and whatever.

You've done better this year.

No, whenever you're not there. It's not just this year. You can't say that because you're not there.

Oh, when I— no, I said with me. When you're not there, I have no idea.

No, yeah, when you're not there, I usually get in part of the time and play and interact and whatever. But the thing is, is here's the thing, is you think we need to volleyball. Sometimes I'm like, just let them run around and throw shit at each other. That's fine. Like, we don't— we like sometimes, like even last Sunday, you're like, hey, they're busy, they're playing their roadblocks thing. Then we got to go have time together. You know, sometimes you don't have to volley. You can— it's okay for them to play with each other or entertain themselves.

Agreed.

You know, and I think sometimes at the pool, like, you'll be in there playing and you'll kind of be looking at me and I'm just relaxing. I might be looking at my phone or whatever. And I'm kind of like, hey, why don't you— why don't you get out and come lay with me? Let them play with each other.

Hey, do this. Pull out your phone. You got your phone?

Yeah.

Let's see how many hours you're on your phone this week.

I work on my phone, so that's—

I know, but let's just see how many hours you're on it.

No.

And I'll look at mine too.

Let's together. I don't work on a desktop. I work on my phone.

Okay.

Well, let's just look and see. How do we go there? What do we do? I don't even know.

Systems.

Sylvan, you know how we go there? System settings screen time. Oh, search, search.

Okay.

Screen time.

Five hours and fifty minutes is my daily average.

Five hours?

Mm-hmm.

Let me see. Screen. I can't type.

Go to your settings.

Screen.

I'm in settings.

Screen.

You ripped it. That's nice.

I can't type. Screen time. Screen time. Okay, now what do I click on?

You're, you're not even in the right area.

What does it say?

Where's your settings? This isn't even your settings.

That's settings.

That's not settings.

This is, this is a serious issue right now we got going on. Screen time right there. Screen.

See, is this settings?

Yeah. Oh my God, we're killing the show right now.

I don't even know how to find your settings on your phone.

Okay, well, we're gonna go to Settings, and then we're gonna go to Screen Time. Screen— why does it keep typing that?

You're not in Settings!

I am in Settings. Screen Time. Now I'm in Screen Time. Apps and website usage. Uh, not now. Okay, I don't know what the hell it's showing. It can't even show me time. All right, so you win.

I win.

5 hours. Listen, you, you say you're not on your phone a lot. You're on your phone a lot.

5 hours?

Is that in a day? I don't get what that is.

Averaging 5 hours a day.

Oh.

On your phone.

There you go.

But—

I bet one of those hours in the morning, one of— I don't know.

I want—

here's the thing, I feel like I do everything on my phone, whether like when I don't very rarely use my desktop or my computer. Like if I'm creating email copies, if I'm creating Canva images, if I'm ordering groceries, if I'm checking my email, if I'm on social media, like anything, I typically do it on my phone.

We should try it. We should try something.

Is five hours a lot or is that low?

I don't know. We should try something though with phone. We should try a set of.

Sylvan, is that higher? Is that high or low?

Mine's six forty four. Six forty four.

Okay.

I think I'd say that's pretty good.

Sylvan said that's pretty good.

All right.

Sylvan's a marriage coach. He's telling us. He's telling us as we're good. Sylvan's like a. Sylvan runs our studios here. Okay. So, but let's try something new. You ready?

Mm hmm.

Let's try a no phones at all after a certain time at night.

That's fine.

7.

7 PM. Let's try it. Are you open to this challenge? 7 PM, no cell phone challenge?

I am open to this challenge for you because you're always like, hold on, it's, it's my one-on-one client. So then I feel like I can't bug you.

No, that's in the morning. I don't do that.

Yes, you do.

No, that's just early in the morning.

No.

Well, I would send a lot of messages early in the morning.

I'm honestly like, I— because even I have Bailey helping me with my social media and we'll like schedule it out. Sometimes it's not scheduled out and I'll, I'll try to finish that and get it posted by like 6 or whatever. But I don't— by, by after dinner, I don't even really want to be on my phone. Like, I don't— I'm not a big scroller. I don't, I don't really care what people are doing. I'd rather— for me, you know what scrolling is? I like shopping.

I know, I know. It's your porn. It's your porn.

But you're always like, you think I'm on social media? I'm like, damn it, I was on Revolve again.

You're on your shopping porn. So here, here's that. I had a little, a little video that I was gonna play for everyone. Here we go. This is a little situation. So this is a couple talking about intimacy. They've been married for 2 years.

Here we go. Yeah, I am my husband, but also it's like we've been married. This isn't exciting anymore, so why do I have to do all the extra shit, you know? Why are you just staring?

Because you're my wife. And I'm attracted to you.

Oh.

So like, I was just wondering, like, how come, like, all the physical and like emotional love has kind of like just dwindled away to nothing?

I don't think it's nothing. I just think like, it's just like old news, you know? You can't be in the honeymoon phase forever.

Well, like, I'm not expecting it every day. Well, I just want like, you know, a hug in the morning, a kiss goodbye, a kiss when I get home from work.

And like— I give you— I give you like a, like a side hug or something. I could do that. I don't know, it's just like not it. Like, you're just like— it's just old school, you know what I mean? It's just like, this isn't exciting anymore, so why do I have to Do all the extra shit, you know? Like yeah, but like yeah, you're my husband, but also it's like we've been married for like a couple years now, so it's just like not a couple years.

Couple years? That's not real. Is that real?

That's real. She was cheating.

Let me see.

She was cheating. She was on a she was on a cheating site.

No.

Yeah.

No. Does that what says really?

Yeah.

It says she was on a cheating site.

Yeah, there's AI tools now that can search and see if your wife or husband is on social profiles like dating, like Tinder. Oh, so like people are getting caught on all these social profiles. Are you on Tinder?

Yep.

We should do— we should do the, the cheater AI just to verify.

Go for it.

Just to verify if you're not—

I'm like, so I'm like some affair. I'm like so socially awkward, like it's, it's hard for me to like say hi to people in general. Like I can't Imagine making the extra effort to try to socialize outside of being married.

You struggle to socialize. Listen, let's like— this topic this guy's bringing up is the same topic that happens for guys like 5 years, 10 years in. Like, how— how—

I— we— but that's—

We're not even talking about sex.

We're talking about pressure. But I was just thinking, like, I always wake up and the first thing I do is, like, give you a hug. And then, like, before you leave, we always kiss. And then when you get home, I always give you, like, a hug.

We do. You know what I'd like when I came home? If you like got off your phone and came and just hugged me. Like just did that.

Hey, are you up?

Sometimes you do that.

Are you off your phone?

Yeah. Yeah. Usually.

90% of the time. I'm usually like making food or something. I'm not usually on my phone right when you get home.

You know how Charlie and I run down the kitchen to you?

You want me to do that?

I want you to do that.

Garrett!

Yes.

Yes. I want you to do that. I come home, I want to see you running down the hall to me. Well, let's look at this. Like you had the conversation of Sex and intimacy was a pressure conversation for you.

It was a pressure conversation.

Yeah, like you felt a ton of pressure around the topic is one of the reasons why, like, you went into performance with me, but like then you stopped performing. But like there was pressure. Like that was a comment you've always brought up. What do you mean by that? Like you felt pressure. Like you felt pressure from me sexually.

Well, and I'm sure a lot of women feel this way, but it's like, I think we— I think women— well, I've seen a lot of like funny memes where Like, she puts his hand on his leg and he's like, it's go time. Or she like plays with his hair and he's like, it's go time. So I think for women, it's like we want to be intimate without the expectation of like, hey, I like— let's go have sex right now. It's like, or maybe it could lead to that, but like we don't want that pressure of like, hey, I want to be able to like tickle his back or his leg or play with his hair. And but it's— is it impossible for the men's minds always go to sex?

I think the example is perfect. So I grew up in a house where cookies were not available. Really?

Yeah.

But we never kept— my mom didn't bake cookies. If she did, they weren't good like your mom's cookies.

How were they?

No, we didn't have— we didn't have treats. We just didn't have treats.

Were your parents overweight?

Yes, but we did not have a lot of treats. So I don't know how that happened. But anyways, there was not a lot of treats.

Oh, they had hidden treats.

They probably had hidden treats I didn't know about. But we did not have lots of cookies. But you told me growing up that you guys had cookies like gourmet cookies on the counter all the time.

Oh yeah, we had fresh baked cookies every week.

Right? So if cookies were available at my grandma's, which happened when we go visit in the summer and Christmas time, and cookies and treats were available, me and my I get it. I get it. I get it.

I get it.

Because you don't have them often.

You had cookies all the time, so cookies were like a thing you could nibble on, but it was like whatever, like cookies were just always available. So like because the cookies were all available, there was less pressure to eat the cookies because the cookies weren't available— cookies were always available. You're like, oh, my mom makes amazing cookies, we have cookies all the time. So if you look at sex from the same place, if sex is cookies and cookies are available all the time, you stop thinking like I need cookies all day long. But when cookies are not available and you're going to Grandma's house and all you can think about is cookies and looking forward to the cookies, and then you get there and all you want to do is eat the cookies, and then you're like, oh shit, 6 months until cookies.

6 months?

Yeah, like Christmas to summer vacation. That was sick. That was a cookie game. We never got cookies.

You shouldn't be having sex every 6 months.

I know that, but I'm just saying, like, the example. So, like, part of the pressure being released is the knowing that It's available. But you feel the pressure, I'm sure. Maybe, maybe not. Don't talk for other women, talk for you. Like, do you feel the pressure because you feel like I've always wanted it every day? Like, is this what the pressure was? Because it wasn't something that just started for us. I mean, we've done— we've improved drastically in the last 10 years.

But I'm saying that even when we first got married 23 years ago, I think we got married so young that I didn't realize that I didn't realize. I'm not— maybe it's not all men, but I would say a lot of men are like you, high sex drive maybe. I don't know. But I didn't realize that, like, that was a— like, when you got married, I didn't realize guys thought about sex as much as they did.

But you didn't think that when we were dating? We were making out all over each other, like, almost every night.

Um, yeah, but we weren't— we, we weren't having sex, so I don't— I don't think it crossed my mind. I didn't think I didn't— I think you got married and thought like, we're gonna have sex every day. And for me, I didn't think that was going to be a thing. I didn't know. I didn't know what was a regular amount for couples. And to be honest, like, because I grew up in like the Mormon culture community, I remember thinking like, I thought like, I've learned that you have to get good at sex. I literally was so naive when we got married that I just thought like, it's gonna be like—

Fireworks.

Fireworks. And then I was like, well, that was kind of awkward and painful. And I don't know if I—

you know what I mean?

I didn't realize like Even like, even if you got with another person, it's like you kind of have to like build up to good sex. I didn't know that back then. So I felt like very wrong and very broken. I was like, what's wrong with me? And I held myself in this like painful guilt and shame box of like, I'm broken. This should be great. And I didn't know how to communicate it to you. And it just took like a, like a lot of reps. But I had like bad wiring from the beginning. Do you know what I mean?

So you feel like that was part of the pressure? was like the feelings you had inside about yourself.

Yeah, it wasn't like just you. It was just like there was a piece of me that I felt like something was wrong with me, which there was. And based on like how I was raised, you know what I mean? I didn't really know any different. And then kind of like decided I was tired of that narrative and got very comfortable with myself and realized like, okay. And then we went to a fun place of like performance and like whatever. And then kind of got to a place That where I was like, you had cookies every day and you didn't appreciate the cookies. So I was like, well, I'm feeling unappreciated. So then I was like, why am I— like, it was kind of for me. But then I got to this place where I'm like, well, if my performance is not being validated, then I don't care.

What would a validated performance have looked like?

Um, you— well, it was like you just were—

We definitely got to a point where we were having sex like—

Because it was just like you didn't You didn't ever approach me. And not only that, is like, you were still like not content. You were just like, you weren't happy. You like still were like not content. I wasn't giving you enough. Like, I wasn't giving you— like, the sex was good, but I wasn't giving you enough like validation, or you didn't feel appreciated or seen or whatever it was. Mm-hmm. And I'm like thinking like, really? I feel like I'm like, like trying really hard to show him how much I love and appreciate him. And, and that is through sex. I'm partly performing, and it is part fun. Like freeing for myself, you know? But also I was just like, I just kind of, I, I just, I kind of felt like you didn't care. I don't know. It was like a weird time where I'm like, huh, I guess he thought this is what he wanted and now he's still saying he wants more out of me. So then it left me feeling like, I don't know what he wants. He needs to work on him.

I don't disagree. I don't disagree there. Like, a deep piece has to work on myself. And I feel like that, that has been a piece of what I have done. What I've been committed to is working on that. And I wanted to get to a place in our relationship where too, like, any time that we touched, it wasn't sex. I think it went the other extreme now, though. Like, it went the other direction. Like, we used to have sex on date night, and now it's like 99% of date nights you want to have sex. Like, it's like it just become the new pattern, which is like you feel incredibly comfortable to cuddle, which I— we cuddle more in the last, like, 2 years than we cuddled in the previous 20. Like, legit. Like, and it's great and it's wonderful and it's nice. I love it. I think it's amazing. Like, I love having the cuddling with you. I love cuddling to sleep with you. You called me back to the bed this morning after I woke up at 3 and you said, come hold me at 4:30. And I cuddle with you. I, I can't do anything about the snoring thing and the twitching of the body, but I'm like, she knows what she's asking for. She's asked me to come in and hold her.

A little tired.

But like, in that place, like, how— like, I feel like in the last year and a half to 2 years, I've been trying to do what I can To relieve the pressure. And here's the topic that comes up constantly because women are like, I want you to approach, but I don't want you to approach.

Mm-hmm.

And like, this is a trap that I got into, a trap that I still feel like I'm in, which is a weird game of like, approach me, but don't approach me. Be, be the man and aggressively take me, but don't take me. Like, interact and make it happen, but don't make it happen too much. Be emotionally available, but don't be too emotionally available.

We're confusing. We don't know what we want.

Be aggressive and be the man, but don't be too aggressive.

Yeah, women have like this weird thing where they want like safety and security and they also like want the fantasy. And you're like, does that exist in the same? That's why they go cheat. They're like, I want the safety and security, but I also am bored and I want the fantasy.

For sure.

Does that— can it— I don't know if it can exist in marriage.

I don't know.

The fantasy and the— what's that movie where like they dress up and they like pretend like they're—

Role playing.

Role playing. Yeah.

I mean, people do this. And role play. I mean, you can see why, you can see why an affair could activate something different, right?

Right.

Think about this. If you— here's the thing, it's wild. Like, I know I played this out. You tell me if this could be accurate. I mean, obviously that hasn't happened, but like, it— I think about it. I'm like, if I took you and I put you in an environment where you didn't have the pressure of the kids, you didn't have the pressure of history with me, you didn't have the pressure of money and business, and you just got to show up and be you as you are right now, but without the weight Mm-hmm. The scarring or the history, and it was just with a good-looking guy. You were with this other guy, and it was just meeting for the first time on a trip for a week like this. There's a different version of—

But everybody has scarring and history, so you can't really— you're making up a scenario that doesn't exist.

But in that, you like— even in it, there would be a freedom in it to experience it that is different than trying to recreate it with the person that you've been with for 23 years.

Well, you'd still have scars, past scars that you'd probably Like we talked about this on our other one, you're dating and you show up as your best self and your intentions are good and you're like, I don't want to repeat these past traumas. But the problem is I've been studying a ton of books and it's hard not to take traumas and your brain elaborates them and then throws them out on your spouse or the other person. And it's like, they're not real. They're triggers and thoughts. They're not the actual reality that you live in anymore. And it's like, the more I study all these books, I'm like, our brains are Fucking crazy.

Yep.

Like, literally, they're trying to cope with being human and survival, but like half the thoughts that we have are like crazy.

Yep.

The book I'm reading now, what's it called? Up the Mountain? Up the Mountain. Yeah, I'm on a chapter—

The mountain is you.

Yeah, I'm on a chapter where she's like talking about like gut feeling versus like intrusive thoughts and like how to differentiate between the two and like why your brain does it and why your body does it. And I'm like, I like read all these books and at the end I feel like a kind of like a little bit hopeless. I'm like, So we are crazy.

No, we're completely crazy. So, okay, so come back to this pressure conversation. Have you felt less pressure about it in the last 2 years?

Yeah.

Okay.

But I've also felt like less, um, I was always like the— not always, but I had been the initiator for so long. And then like the last like year and a half to 2 years, I was like, I don't want to initiate anymore. And so I appreciate like the, the less Pressure, and not only that, the other thing that I appreciate is like, like women have a lot. Like at least for me, I can't speak for all women, but like I feel like there's this guilt if you don't have sex with your husband too. So like we could have a great date night and cuddle, and then I'm like, shit, I fell asleep. And then I wake up feeling like guilty because I'm like, oh, we didn't connect, and he wanted to have sex, and I fell asleep. And so then it's like, oh my gosh, it's like, and I don't want to feel that way either, you know. But I guess back to To what I was saying is like, I felt like I was the initiator for so long, and then I just got to this point where I was like, I don't really wanna initiate anymore. And then you weren't really initiating. And so then your story was like, well, I might get rejected. And I'm like, you might, you know? But then it went to like a really low, like zero initiation. And then I got to this place where I'm like, well, like, I don't wanna initiate either, but— Where are we at here?

Well, it's why it's a weird piece, because like we talk about this with our guys a lot, which is if you look at it from this, you're a beautiful woman. You have gone definitely through some betrayal. You've gone through a lot of things in business. You've had a lot of people turn on you, etc. So I'm not saying you haven't experienced betrayal, but rejection as a beautiful woman does not happen as often as what a guy experiences every day. Like there's rejection I face all day long in business. That's one thing that's easy, right? But when you, when you add up all of the micro rejections for a guy in marriage, he gets to a point where like the stack of rejection— if you take just the topic of sex, the stack of rejections is incredibly high for men.

Mm-hmm.

Because I can come in 50/50 shot, maybe more like 70/30 shot, but it's all based upon how you are feeling. Like, where are you at? And so you don't know because that shit's changing every day. So like, you come in and you're like, no, yes, no, yes, no, yes. So there's a point to where you get to where you're like, the rejection is higher than the acceptance to where you're like, dude, is this even worth it? So then you sit back and then if you approach me, rejection is almost zero. Like, if I reach over and grab your breasts, there's a potential you may be okay with it. You may not. You reach over and grab my penis. It's 100% go time. Like, I'm like, no problem. So like, there's not that— you don't have the history of like, every time you touch me, I was like, stop touching me. Don't.

I don't say that.

No, but I'm saying if you— if that was what you did, what I did, like, you were— you came and you came like, run your hand down my stomach, and I was like, ah, don't. Let's just— no, just hold me. If every time, or most of the time, or 70% of the time you touched me and I had a response to it, It would train your brain too, like, oh man, I don't know if I— I got a 7 out of 10 chance I'm going to get rejected by making this approach. Should I make the approach or not? So then you're like, okay, well, I'm going to sit back and be safe then and not make the approach, because in not making the approach, it actually is less pain than if I make the approach and I get rejected again. So guys get in a place where they want women to initiate because women are not rejected.

Hmm.

Again, this hap— there are some women who are getting rejected by their husbands. I don't understand these guys. These are very small number of women who have husbands who have no sex drive and their wives have high sex drive and their men are just like cool with not having sex ever. But most of it is the opposite.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you, how do you engage? How, how could we engage in a way where— because I feel like I've created a container for you in the last 2 years where every time we touch, every time we cuddle, even if we were like damn near naked cuddling, I've been like, cool. Last night was naked cuddling, and I'm just like, it's cool. I'm just gonna hold you. It's good. Go to sleep. Do my thing. How do we create conditions to where there's more openness in the exchange, to where I don't feel rejected and you don't feel the pressure?

Mm-hmm.

Because with initiation comes pressure. 'Cause it's like me asking, like, even asking, even trying not to ask, but just like move in and try to be smooth about it, or give a massage or stretch ya, pop your back like a chiropractor.

What do you think? I don't know.

That's it?

I— why? I don't know. I mean, I feel like there's situations where a massage usually leads to it. Every once in a while it doesn't. Last night, literally, you were like— I'm like, oh, the stretching feels nice, and I just like passed out. Um, but usually, like, if there's a massage involved, it's like 90% chance that's gonna happen. And I feel like maybe I should start putting the kids to bed, because what happens is like you'll put them to bed, and then like I've been trying not to watch TV at night because it wires my brain, and I've been trying not to be on my phone at night.

Yeah.

And so I'm sitting there And I'm like, it's like 9:00, 9:30, and I just drift asleep. And so, which is good because then I've been sleeping better.

Yeah.

But on the flip side, it's bad because then I'll kind of hear you come in, but I'm like literally like half asleep. And when I'm like in my unconscious, like half asleep, if you touch me, it's not like— there was one day this week, you're like, do you remember? Like, pushing me. I'm like, I don't even remember. I'm pretty sure I was like asleep. He's like, well, you were moving and like telling me to go away. I'm like, I'm so sorry. That was not in my subconscious. Mine was intentionally rejecting you. I was mostly asleep, maybe a tiny bit awake.

Yeah.

So I'm like, I guess I could put the kids to bed and then it would open up more opportunity. And then usually I'm pretty open in the mornings too because I'm a little bit more relaxed unless I didn't sleep good like this morning. But usually in the mornings, it's like as long as the kids are distracted, I'm pretty go time there. So I don't know. I think that like in marriage, it's like you must have sex at night and that's the only time. And I think I will tell you, we have to be more creative. Sometimes it might be in the middle of the afternoon on a Saturday or Sunday, you know, or maybe it could be, hey, instead of waiting till like nighttime when we've had a couple cocktails after a date night or something, what if we like tried it before? You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

It's like, and then like when we used to have our gym dates, it's like, okay, the house is empty. It's just for me, it's not necessarily— I think there's a lot of pressure that it must be done only at nighttime. And I— and like I said, it's like, it's— if I fall asleep, I'm less open to it.

For sure. For sure.

So that's my answer to your question.

I think it's tough too in the last like year and a half to 2 years. Like, you've been— sleep has been a bit of a struggle. Mornings you're waking up, you're not feeling good. Nighttime, you're too tired. It's like, it's just a weird— it's a weird cocktail because I'm like trying to like DJ this thing as a husband. I'm like, okay, how do I— how do I— because it's a weird game for me. How do I initiate without having my wife feel pressure? And like, is the pre— if the rejection problem is on my side, the pressure's on your side.

I know we're older, but like, I remember with Bailey and Ruby, there's like a 5 to 6 year stretch where you're just like, this is rough. Like, sex is hard, sleep is hard. And then I told you, like, when we moved to 3 Oceanfront and they were finally like 7 and like 11, I was like, oh my God, I sleep so good. And that's when we started having a lot of sex. And I was like, I'm sleeping better. Like, I was just— we know they're not going to come in our room anymore. They're not toddlers, right? Like, I just remember there's— and so I feel for people that have young children. I'm like, it is. Get ready. Like, it is a solid 5 to 7 year stretch where, like, you have to be very intentional and it's not easy. You're constantly navigating, are they gonna walk in on us right now? I'm kind of exhausted. Okay, they're gonna wake up twice in the night. Like, it's just, it's rough. And like, I know our older kids make fun of us and they're like, you guys need to stop acting like you're 70. I'm like, it's literally the— we are older and it's the phase of life that we're in. Because I remember being in my early 30s and being like, I'm so fucking tired all the time. Yeah.

Yeah.

And now, I'm like a little— like, I'm 10 years later and I'm in my early 40s and I'm like, is it—

Same place.

And it's same place. And you'll be like, you're perimenopause or it's because you're getting older. I'm like, I am in the best shape I've ever been in. My body looks better than it does when I was in my early 30s. I take way better care of myself. I eat better. I work out. I take the supplements, the vitamins, the peptides, all— like, I'm in great shape. season of having business life, toddlers, not to mention we have now have an older daughter who works for me who just had a baby. And it's like my mind is— I would joke around about this all the time on podcasts. I'm like, do not have toddlers and teenagers at the same time. You'll be stressed out at your teenagers. My oldest just had a baby and now she's 19, her boyfriend's 20. I'm stressed out about them making their relationship work. Then I have a 15-year-old. And if you have a 15-year-old, you're like— It's like walking on eggshells every day. I'm like, is she going to be pissed at me or is she going to love me? Like, you don't know. So you're like, then you have the toddlers who are constantly fighting and I'm like, oh my God. So by like the end of the day, like by the end of the day, I'm like, I want to give my husband emotionally more and I know he needs it, but like, I'm just trying to survive.

Hey, I don't take away from the pressure of any of that.

And it's not, it's not like— there's some days that are easy, and some days I'm folding laundry and watching a Kevin Hart movie, laughing my ass off, and then I want to cry the next minute because, like, I'm like, ah, it's like a lot.

It's a lot. Okay, so the answer is, um, I'll see you when you're 47.

Yeah, you know, hold, you know, we've made it so far. You're at the home stretch. It's gonna be fine.

We have, we have talked about this, but we've never actually done it, which is scheduled I'm kind of at a point where I'm open to it.

I'm like, we kind of did schedule sex. That's the lie. We used to do our gym date and it was—

That stopped happening like 2 months ago.

No, because we started like— I don't know why it stopped happening.

For like the first month or 2 it happened where we'd have sex on gym morning. It was amazing. And then it stopped happening.

I think it was because you had to get to the office. There was like a couple of mornings where I was like, I'm sorry, I'm like not into it. I was pissed at you for some reason. And then it, then it like happened a couple of times and you were just like, I got to get to the office and you didn't even approach me. So I was like, Okay.

Again, I—

I think I even offered a few times. I think I even offered a few times, and you were like in your head about work already, and you're like, nah, I gotta shower and go. I was like—

It's a weird deal. Like, so, so for example, like even like with scheduled sex, you're like, okay, is it— you know how like you would say like, like the whole funny statement, I want you to want to? There's still a piece too where you're kind of like, okay, I want you to want— I want you to want this. I want you to want it. I don't want to like feel like, oh God, here's a charity case, here you go. Oh, let me get— let me help get you off. It's like, it's just different. It's like, I feel like there's, there's an incredible amount of pressure from business, incredible amount of pressure from some lawsuits we're in, incredible amount of pressure with the kids. There's pressure all the time. But it's like, I, I would love to create an environment for us to where— because we— it's not like we don't go out.

No.

We go out like 2, 3 times a week, plus we have a gym morning. Like, we actually spend more time together than we ever did. Plus podcast, plus Date Your Wife Experience.

Maybe it's too much.

We're with each other like a lot. Like a lot. And we have help and there's also coverage. So it's like, it's a weird game because if pressure's on you and rejection's on me, then rejection's my issue to handle and pressure's your issue to handle. Is that accurate or no?

Sorry, say that last thing again.

If rejection is on me, it's like I got to get over that.

Mm-hmm.

And you got to get over— then you got to get over the pressure, which means if you're feeling the pressure and I'm feeling the rejection, you can't do anything about me feeling rejected. I can't do anything about you feeling pressure. But somewhere in the middle of this is this middle place of like—

Yeah, let's work on that.

Letting go of pressure, letting go of rejection.

Let's work on that.

Okay, so we're going to schedule sex?

I mean, we can try.

We actually— we were joking around one time on a vacation. She's like, you know, I think I'm just going to hire you an escort 4 days a week. I was like, uh, okay, tell me more. Tell me more about this. She would have had a dream or something. And we were sitting there thinking about it because like, it's weird. Like, if you— if, if a guy had sexual fulfillment outside, I think what would end up happening if that was— that occurred, if you genu— like, we genuinely like each other as human beings, like we like being around each other. If you eliminated that from the equation, it would be a very interesting equation. Because, like, if you're super satisfied sexually, then you would find out real quickly if you wanted your spouse for anything more than sex.

Some people have multiple wives, though.

I know they do. That's becoming more of a thing for people.

It's— well, especially in, like, different countries.

That's happening around all over the world.

Yeah.

It's probably, like, a lot less pressure for the women. They're like, it's not my job. It's your job tonight.

That'd be interesting. That'd be an interesting game.

Mm-hmm.

Because I just don't know. I don't know if I could handle one more woman in the house.

Yeah, I get it.

I watch how it, like, it works with our 4 daughters and a wife. I just can't— I just can't see myself being able to navigate 2 women.

Really?

Yeah, because what if you guys get in an issue or you're like, then you're all on your periods at the same time. And that's, that's a lot. I already got 4 girls in the house plus my wife. That's 5.

Yeah.

One more.

That's 6.

I think it would be a very competitive environment. Like, I'd just— I'd be like, Oh, he's looking at you tonight. Oh wait, you know, like it'd just be kind of like a weird competitive environment.

Maybe it'd be good.

I don't know.

Let's test it. So we're putting applications out for our— putting applications out for our throuple. They call it a throuple. People do this.

I, I know, I'm aware.

I know.

We have friends.

We know some people who do it.

Yeah, we get you.

I just don't know. I don't know if, if it could work. You know, we did it. We did a survey one time with a bunch of our guys, about 50 guys in a room. We said, okay, we're gonna get real open. And we said, how many of you have thought about a threesome before?

Every single one of them.

100% of them.

Yeah.

And I said, how many of you have talked about a threesome with your wife? Either she brought it up or you brought it up. And like 3/4 of the room brought up their hands, which is like some very conservative people that you wouldn't expect it to come from. I think there's a natural desire to create excitement around sex and marriage, but it's very difficult to do.

Right.

Because of all the things you listed out. Now add the pressure of business and life and all the rest of it.

I think it could be done.

What could be done?

I think, well, I like, I look at situations where I'm like, is that going to improve your marriage or add chaos? Is that worth like the, ooh, they're like, that was a rush, and then have like the scarring from whatever that was? You You know?

Yeah, I don't, I don't know. So, I mean, I, I, I, I've— if I put myself in a mind and I said, okay, let's pretend we had an open relationship, you're sleeping with somebody else.

It'd just be weird.

I couldn't do it.

I would, like, have a hard time if I'm like, oh, I know he's out with somebody. I would just be, like, thinking about it all night.

It'd be super weird.

I'm kind of crazy. Like, I, like, stalk you on 360, and if you're, like, late, I'm like, where is that asshole? Why are you at the gas station? No, I—

Ruby's like, you know, Mom tracks you everywhere. I was like, I know. She knows where I'm at all the time.

Well, because sometimes you'll be like, I'm on my way home. And then like 45 minutes goes by and I'm like, the office is 5 minutes away. And I assume you're at the gas station, like picking up Zinns or whatever you want, whatever you get at the gas station. But then sometimes I'll like, well, I finally realized your parking spot. I'm like, where does he park that's like not at the condo? And I was like, is he at another fucking condo?

Yeah, it took a bit. I knew it.

He has a side piece of meat at the condo next door. That's just my— Intrusive thoughts coming out. And then I'm like, wait a minute, we have a really tall condo. So I go—

You texted me.

So on Monday I was like, that's where he parks? He's just pulled— you're pulled over at the condo next door, but they have a little like side lane.

Pulled over on the side of the road and I finish up calls.

So I just, for months I thought you had a side hustle at the condo next door. And I was like, well, that's a shitty condo. Like maybe find a higher caliber of a girl. I don't know.

One time my phone died when I was out of town. I was in Arizona on a business trip and at an event, and my phone died at like 9:30 at night, and you were in Miami, and I'm getting texts, and my phone died so I couldn't respond to you. I didn't know you were texting me. So then I get back to the room and I plug it in. It's like 12:30 or something. I've been drinking a bit with the guys, and I go plug in my phone and I lay down on the bed and it goes boing and it comes on and goes bing, bing, bing, bing. And I was like, oh, text from my wife. Let's see what she had to say. And I look at there and it was like an entire argument with yourself that ended with, I hope she was worth it. I hope it was worth what you did. I'm going to bed. Forget you. I'm like, she just had a full argument with herself in the text.

I had also been out with friends having drinks and came home and was a little bit out of my mind.

Okay, so are we committed to scheduling sex then? Cookies on the counter?

Cookies on the counter. We'll see. We'll see what your schedule looks like, the timing.

No, well, that's the point of scheduling it if you put it in the calendar. But like, it could be like a midday, like you got like a 2 PM appointment.

Let's give it a go.

We had a moment this morning in the cold plunge where neither one of us wanted a cold plunge. And you were like— and you look at me, you're like, don't be a pussy, it's only 2 minutes. And I was like, see, you do hard stuff that you don't want to do. Look at this. You don't want to get in the cold plunge. I don't want to get in the cold plunge. We get in the cold plunge, we feel better after.

2 minutes. Can you want a 2-minuter?

I think I need 4. Maybe 4 minutes.

Okay.

4 or 5 minutes.

The challenge for this week, kids, is if you have teenagers and toddlers and businesses and stress of life. We're going to challenge you. We're going to take on this challenge of scheduling sex. We'll let you know how it goes. If it—

Are you committed to this?

Yeah, but what is— like, you can't be like, we're going to do it Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

All right, 3 days.

That's easy.

3 scheduled moments.

Okay.

One at night, one in the morning, one in the middle of the day. Do you want to pick this?

I'll take on it.

Do you want to pick the schedule?

I don't care.

And it's not just like—

Does it have to be the same days?

It's not like morning, afternoon, evening in one day. It could be.

There's been some weekends where you're like, we didn't have sex all week. I'm like, we had sex 3 times in one weekend. That counts.

You know what I was thinking about on the time frame, though? Like, if you go a week and then you have sex, like, in the evening on a Saturday, and then you have it in the morning on a Sunday.

Yeah.

And then you had it twice, right? But then you got another week. It's technically 14 days.

Yeah.

You'll be like— Of, like, one moment in a 12-hour span over 14 days.

No, there was, like, one comment. You're like, we only had sex once last week. Are you kidding me? We had sex 3 times in like 2 days. And you're like, oh yeah. But it had been like 8 days or something.

Yeah.

Anyway.

But look at it, even the math. You do 8 days, and then you do it 3 times, and then you do 8 days.

But just the goal averages. You gotta average it out.

I'm not a sponge.

You just average things out.

Okay, so we're gonna figure out the schedule. We're going to share our research and development on this. One of the things that we have launched is a community called Date Your Wife Experience. Um, and we are now talking about it. We launched it here about 5 weeks ago. We started a beta test with it and we run it every single week. We would love you guys to be part of it. So if you would like to come check that out, you can go to datyourwife.com, which will take you in instructions and down the path of what we're doing. So that we have about 30, 40 couples right now that are participating in it. It's open dialogue, open conversations.

I feel like our podcast is a little bit like random conversations. I feel like the Date Your Wife It's more intentional.

Very intentional.

And we're using tools and strategies that have helped us in our relationship, and we open up healthy conversation. It's not— I mean, I feel like this is like fun. Our conversation that we have on the podcast, we do this because a lot of couples have said, you know, they heard our conversation or our podcast and it helped open up dialogue for them and their significant other, because I think that's the hardest thing when you're in a relationship. Is having open conversations without feeling like you're alone. So when people listen to our podcast, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling the same way. And it just opens up conversation and dialogue between them. You know, so part of it is like we're funny and we're bantering, but sometimes it can be kind of serious. But these are the conversations that we are daring enough to have on this podcast. From what we've heard feedback from is people are like, oh, we listen to the podcast and it totally opened this up for us. So with the Date Your Wife experience, it's more, it's more intentional. And like I said, it's finding things that have worked in our relationship, including Garrett's stacking and things like that. Like it's his version of AI, like it helps communication inside of marriage. So that's kind of where we felt like we wanted to launch a community for couples so that you, you feel like you're not alone. And not only that, as I feel like we've talked about, you know, couples, there's still kind of like a, if you do therapy, you're broken kind of thing.

Mm-hmm.

Or let's wait till we're broken and then do therapy. And so I think like a lot of people are like scared to work on the relationship in that way. And so it's like this kind of opens up a community and a dialogue to where therapy is great and so is communication and so is community. So that's our intention in launching this experience and, and this community.

So you can check it out more and learn more at dateyourwife.com. So scheduled sex is on its agenda. We're going to see. We committed to a challenge months ago of having sex every day 30 days. That lasted 3 days. So we obviously are not keeping our word. We're going to let you know how this goes next week. So that brings us to a final here of this week's episode of the Date Your Wife podcast.