Why Couples Stop Seeing Each Other; The Hidden Stories That Destroy Marriage

spiral, and then they're like, see? And then it justifies you feeling grumpy towards your spouse that day because they buttoned their shirt wrong.

Like, if you— that's why I say, if you and I were dating now, it'd be very interesting if we had never known each other and we were just dating now. Like, would we line up? Well, hello my friends and welcome to another episode of the Date Your Wife podcast. Since 2018, Danielle and I have been rocking this podcast. Not every single week. We had a couple years that we faded for about 6 months and then we came back, but we have been running the show since 2018. Back then, people thought I overtalked my wife and never let her say anything. The truth that you didn't know is that my wife didn't have much to say.

That's not true.

You wouldn't say it though.

No, I think, I think you do. You, you tend to talk more than me, just in general.

In the past, I think you talk as much as I do now.

No, it's not possible.

It's possible. It's possible. We used to be able to like have to like have her take a shot of tequila just to get her to say anything on a microphone, but that has changed in 2018. That was 8 years ago.

I didn't really have as much experience like teaching and training as you did. I did hair and was training and teaching on that, but it's a little bit different than podcasting, I would say.

Yeah, well, here we are. You ready?

What do you want to talk about?

Oh, I got you. I'm going to read one of my—

I'm in my gym clothes.

One of my carousels. I will tell you right now. So here's the deal. As we get started into this, I have a Daily Scroll podcast. It used to be called Warrior on Fire. It's called The Daily Scroll. If you look it up on any of the podcast directors, you can find it. Every day for the past 5 months, twice a day, 6 AM, 6 PM, I release what I call a scroll. I do it on Instagram. It's called a carousel. You can check it out. It's very popular. They've been picking up popularity here. A lot of them are on the topic of marriage. Surprise, surprise. But half the ones that do the best, they are the ones that blow up in sex, communication, long-term attraction, a marriage, etc. So I'm going to read one of those, and if you want to follow for the full carousel experience, what I call my Eden Scrolls, you can listen to one every single day. They're 5 to 6 minutes. You can check them out by going to the Daily Scroll on podcast, so iTunes Podcast, Spotify, etc. You ready for it? It's going to take about 3 minutes to read it.

Okay, I'm ready.

If you want to stop me anytime along the way, you can, but this will be our topic for today. Ready?

Ready to go.

One of the saddest moments in marriage is realizing you've been living with a memory instead of the person standing in front of you. After enough years together, you stop seeing each other. What are your thoughts right out of the gate on this?

Sorry, I was trying to fix my chair, to be honest.

Did you not hear anything I just read?

No, read it again.

This is a perfect example of what's going on.

I was like, why am I looking— why am I higher looking down? I got distracted.

You don't like it? You know what, what if you were 6'5" and I was 5'8"?

That would be weird.

There's tall girls with short guys.

Okay, no, just restart reading.

You want me to read it again? Okay, here we go.

One of the saddest moments is—

One of the saddest moments in marriage is realizing you've been living with a memory instead of the person standing in front of you. After enough years together, you stop seeing each other. So before we get into my—

That's not bad or good then, because—

What's your initial thoughts?

What if somebody's like grown into this person and you don't see them? You see them for like who they were like 5 years ago. Or vice versa. What if they go like downhill and you're still seeing them for like this person when you met? Is that true?

Yeah, I think a lot of us is. I mean, do you do it to me?

Um, not really. I would say at some level there's past triggers for sure, but there's also moments when I like see you, whether it's training, engaging with our kids, and like you're not the same person, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, okay, like I can acknowledge like your, your growth in whether it's like business or yourself, you know what I mean? It's like I can see you for who you are now, but there's also in marriage, there's also triggers that might remind me of like 10 years ago Garrett, you know? Could be something you said, the tone, the way you like buttoned your shirt weird, and it just set off some kind of trigger. And then I see old version of Garrett, and then people's minds spiral, and then they're like, see? And then it justifies you feeling grumpy towards your spouse that day because they buttoned their shirt wrong.

Well, you've even told me you wake up some days, and I've had the same experience, where you just wake up and you're angry at me for, like, no apparent reason outside of just, like, feeling angry. What's that about?

Um, I'll—

I'm not the only one who has this experience. I do too, so—

Yeah, I don't know. I think sometimes when I'm, like, irritated with where life is going or things are going, it's like, then I kind of am like, ugh, why are we in this spot? And I'm like— kind of just projecting anger towards you like it's your fault, you know? Or I don't know, some mornings I just wake up feeling bugged in general. And I've told you this. I've been like, hey, I'm not— I might be mad at you. I'm not really sure. I'm just letting you know if I come across kind of like bitchy, I just am not in a good mood today. So I'm like, I'm going to investigate this inside myself. I might be mad at you. I'm not sure why. I'm just— I just don't need— I don't want to be poked or I'm not in the— I'm not in a fun mood right now, you know? Got it.

That's most mornings.

But I could be like that with our kids too. I could just be like, our kids are wild in the mornings, you know that. And so I'm like trying to be like really patient, but I'm not really a morning person. I've never ever, as long as I've known myself, been a morning person. I have friends clear back in like high school that would make fun of me. They're like, oh, here comes, like I have, I'm like Charlie, like our little 3-year-old. Like when she wakes up, it takes her like an hour to come to her sorts. It's like, and that's how I feel like I am too. I'm like, I just need a second to drink some water, maybe a protein shake, ice my face, look into the sunlight, maybe take a cold plunge, go over some emails, sit on social media for 20 minutes, then hit up the gym, and by 11, I am good to go. But when I had more responsibilities, I had to get up earlier like you did so I could be ready to go into work by 9. You know, it was like, 'Kay, I gotta get up earlier and get my workout in and get myself sorted. But I would imagine most people are like that. Like, don't you think most people wake up and have to like, I don't know. When you have kids and business and life and shit, like, I don't know. There's sometimes I wake up and I'm like, oh, I'm really excited for this project or whatever it is. I'd say like 9 out of 10 times I'm like, okay. And that's why I have— you and I have such strong morning routines because like you can't sit in the space of like, oh, I'm irritated. Or that funny comedian. You're like, I have anxiety this morning. Get the fuck over it. Get your routine on and set your mind straight.

Our routines are like hours apart.

Yeah, like I see you. Yeah, but it still takes you like 3 hours, and I'm the same way. I just get up at 6:30 or 7. Yeah.

So, okay, ready to continue with it?

Sure.

So again, context: one of the saddest moments— living a memory instead of the person— living with a memory instead of the person standing in front of you. After enough years together, you stop seeing each other. Marriage doesn't stay the same. Neither do people. The man changes, the woman changes, life changes, children change you, success changes you, pain changes you. Time changes everyone. Yet most couples keep relating to who their spouse used to be, not who they have become. And that's where the distance begins. So I'll give you an example. Like, you had, uh, like— you good with me being open right now? You're like, you don't even know where I'm gonna go. But you'll do it? No, no.

Well, we're on a podcast, so keep it PG.

Of course, PG.

Okay.

So we had— we have had moments, seasons sexually where like you've been on fire, and then we've had you where you've not been on fire. And part of my mind in 2026 goes back to a moment like 2022, 2023, early 2024, which was probably the peak of your sexual expression with me. So under this game, there's still a piece of my mind in 2026 like, man, where did that girl go? What happened to her? Yeah. And so like the trigger back of like my mind still looks at this. At the same time, there's like a version of you and I this year and last year that's been very different too, which is we— except for the last couple weeks, it was a little off with the family vacation and Charlie's sleeping in our bed— we never cuddled. Like, we hardly ever cuddled the first like 20 years we were married. We didn't—

well, I think because I, I was like, I didn't want to cuddle with you because there was always an expectation at the end. And sometimes I'm like, hey, I'm cool, I'm like tired, I'm not— I don't care if we're intimate or we cuddle or we touch, but like, I don't— I'm not interested in having sex. Tonight. And so I feel like you kind of like finally like came like more safe where you're like, hey, we can just cuddle with no expectations. I was like, perfect. I'm like, great.

Is that better for you?

Um, yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I'm just like, that's great. I'm too tired. I don't care. I understand you're a guy and you want it 24/7. And you finally saw me for the day, and it happens to be at the end of a long day when we put toddlers to bed and we didn't talk and communicate. This is literally the only time we've seen each other all day. There's really no other opportunity for us to be intimate or have sex. So I get it why it's kind of like— my problem is, and not my problem, but I feel like sex, if we're talking about sex, it's always expected to happen at night. And most women that I talk to prefer it morning, midday. Like, they don't prefer it at night. And like, most men probably prefer it anytime, but the most realistic opportunity is at night. So what do you do there?

Well, I don't know. I mean, like, is it that you don't like sex at night? Is it like you're too tired or what is it?

Truthfully, I'm tired and my brain— I probably should get on some kind of medication. Like, I— my brain does not shut off and it gets worse at night to where it's just like circling and circling. Like, I don't sleep well. You know, I've— that's another thing. I've never slept well. I've tried like melatonin and a few things and it— seems to make me more groggy in the morning. So like, I've had one season in my life where I slept good, and it was before I had Isla and Charlie. And it was like, we had an 8-year gap between our kids, and our kids are finally old enough and sleeping through the night. And I had like a 5-year window where I slept like a champion. But other than that, like, even growing up, I remember being little, like, never sleeping good. Like, my, my brain, which is a gift because I'm always thinking and processing and analyzing, it does not shut off.

So at nighttime, if sex is on the table and your brain is thinking, does your brain not slow down if you start getting into it, or it doesn't?

If I get into sex?

Yeah.

No, I don't even have a desire. I'm like so anxious. It's the last thing.

Because you're up here thinking.

And I'm tired. It's like my brain's wired and my body's kind of tired. And I'm like, I just— I want to shut my brain off and go to sleep. So I'd rather like cuddle and listen to meditation music. I'm like— Okay, that kind of helps me calm down, wind down, and then I don't want to wake back up and have sex.

So I— we're going to keep going with this because again, these kind of things are like, like the patterns and evolving. You have, you have a pattern the last couple years, which is like you don't feel so good in the morning and you don't feel so good at night. And so I'm working during the day and you don't feel good in the morning, you don't feel good at night.

So at least— no, sometimes I don't feel good at night, it's just I'm exhausted from like either toddlers or work or stress of life and everything. I just, I kind of got to this— I don't think I've ever really enjoyed sex at night, to be honest with you. Like, I think when we're on vacation and there's no kids and I can shut my brain off and relax, I don't care how late we stay up. But other than that, like, I don't think I'm— at nighttime, I'm very rarely like, now's the time I want to have sex. Just being honest.

Can sex in your mind ever become like— I'm sure it does— where it's like I don't really want to go to the gym, but I like the outcome.

No.

Because you told me that, like, if you get into it, that you end up liking it. So, like, if you didn't want to, but then you got into it and you did like it, does that change the equation or no?

It doesn't. Here's the thing. If I go to the gym, I know it's going to, like, set my day up and I'm going to be energetic and I'm ready to go. So, like, I like that outcome. Sex to me, it's intimate. The orgasm is 30 seconds, and then it doesn't help me fall asleep any quicker. So I don't look at it the same way as the gym. It's not going to set my whole night up.

Do you feel more powerful? Like, do you feel more connected to me after sex?

No, I feel— I mean, sometimes I would say I feel connected when, like, there's multiple things because we can have sex sometimes and I'm just like, whatever. But if we're, like, in a good place where we spent time and, like, connected and then we have sex, I'm like, oh, that was nice. But sometimes there's been sex where it's like I don't feel anything from it. It's just kind of like, okay, he wants to have sex, that's fine. It doesn't really do anything for me, but I don't mind. And I would say that's— I would say that's true for all women. Like, if they don't admit that, they're just lying. They're lying. Like, women don't have the same hormones as men, and sometimes they don't feel like they're being seen or validated, but they know like the guy needs sex, and so they will have sex and feel nothing. And And we've talked about this before. It could be pincushion sex. I at least hopefully don't make you feel like you're like using my body like a corpse. But I, I do think women are— most women, I can't speak for all women, but I think that most women that are married have sex when they don't feel anything of it and they just know that the guy needs to have sex.

What do you think? What do you think is the difference?

And is this whole podcast going to be about sex or can we move on with the scroll?

We can move on with the scroll.

Okay, let's keep going.

Yeah. Yet most couples keep relating to their spouse who their spouse used to be, not who they have become. And that's where the distance begins. He still sees the woman he married at 25. She still sees the man who hurt her 10 years ago. Neither is fully present. Both are trapped in old stories. Every argument reinforces the same narrative. You always, you never, this is just who you are. Without realizing they're describing someone who may no longer exist.

Exist.

I feel like it's games. Like, I feel like in the last year to year and a half, I've had radical shifts in how I show up. Do you feel this?

Yeah.

What have you noticed?

Um, less reactive is probably the biggest thing, and more calm and more open to like having conversations without like being so reactive. And less reframing. I felt like for so many years it was like I couldn't talk because anytime I did talk, which is great in sales, You reframe it and then I'm like, I can't, he's just recircling this to reframe it, to put it on me. And I'm like, and I don't buy it. So less reframing, less reactivity, which in turn I feel like has helped you kind of appreciate and see me more, which then also makes me feel like safer to be like honest, even if you don't like it. But I'm not like, you hear it differently. You're like not immediately trying to be right. You're just like, huh, okay.

And then what does that make you feel like?

Um, a little bit more connected and more just safe to have conversations. But we'd gotten to a place where I told you, like, it was like 3 or 4 years ago now, but I was like, I'm like, I can't— like, I was so anxious and felt like I was constantly walking on eggshells. I was like, I'm like, I can't, I can't be in this relationship if I don't feel safe to share how I'm feeling. And you might not like how it's gonna be conveyed because part of me is I've bottled it up for so long because I felt like any time I tried to share, it was kind of smashed. I was like, but I can't be in this marriage anymore. Like, I can't. Like, I feel like I'm suffocating. And it took, like, I don't know what happened to you in the last, like, year. You finally— it was like slowly started shifting and shifting over the last, like, probably not just year, but probably like 3 years, I would say.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's been a lot of shifts. I just am wondering, like, inside of seeing the shift, because, like, the entire premise here is, like, there's who you used to be.

What do you see in me that's different? Because you're like, you're always referencing like, you know, haven't you seen the changes I've made in the last like year, year and a half? What changes in me have you seen in the last year and a half? Or is it just, dang, my wife doesn't put out as much anymore?

That's one of them.

Okay.

But I think that I don't know. I feel like you've been going through a bit of a collapse in the last 18 months. Like you've been like—

Our whole world got the fucking rug pulled out from under you.

But I'm just saying, like, I feel like there's a piece of you that like the performance side, which, by the way, we didn't even know. I would never— 3 years ago, I would have never said we're performing for each other. I didn't think that. Like, that was never a thought. It's like being—

I've talked about this. I don't think performance is necessarily bad in a marriage. Like, like, like it can be fun. It can be fun to have a character. It can be fun to perform for your significant other. It could show care. I don't think it's necessarily a problem when it becomes the only act. Is when it might be the problem. When you're like, wow, I'm really tired of being the stripper. Like, I can do that. That character's fun. But like, I don't— I want my husband to see me more than just the stripper. Like, I need him to understand I have some depth to me and my soul. And like, I'm not going to look like this forever. So— but I've done a pretty good damn job.

You've done a damn good job. I think— I think like when I say what is the changes, I think a lot of the— The only way I can look at it is like there is a performance that we started living as a couple that I believe is being exposed in the last 2 years. Like, there's just a— and I wouldn't have looked at it from a frame ever of said, hey, that we're performing. That's what's weird for to look back because I'm like, in the moment at that time, it like, that made sense. So it didn't feel like we were doing that. But we're now sitting where I am now, 2 years down the road from it. And I look back to even where things were in California.

Everybody's performing. Any big couple you look at online, I don't care if they're preaching Jesus or whatever, at some level they're performing. It becomes part of their brand. Like, we know a lot of big couples and I'm like, are you really that Jesus-y? Like, I don't know if I buy it. Like, there's some dark shit behind that. And so everybody at some level, especially if you're in the media and you're positioning yourself as a power couple, you are performing. You are. And it's a part of your brand. So is that a problem? It's a problem when the rug gets pulled out from underneath you and you're like, starts to question like, Okay, that's when you start to question. You start to question the performance. Did the performance get you to where you want to go? Did it expose things? And it exposes people when the market shifts. When you start losing business deals, the performance gets more stressful. And then you're starting to look at your husband like, what the fuck? We just did this big performance game, which we thought was our brand. And is it really our brand? And a piece of it is. But I'm just saying, I see so many couples that are successful, but they are as much in the performance game as we are and were because it's now part of the brand. We talk about date your wife, date every week. Was that a performance?

I think in the beginning it was like an attempt. Back in 2011, '12, and '13, it was our attempt to try to find connection again. 'Cause we had lost connection. I think there's, like, here's a question for you. How do you and I, overcome the scarring we did to each other in the first 15 years? Because I feel like it's still part of the equation. It's less of the equation. So like, even like how I feel like I've shifted so much in the last 15 to 18 to 24 months in how I'm showing up, to the point that it's like the verbal feedback I get from strategic partners, from my teams, from my clients. There's clients right now that are involved in what I'm doing here in one-on-one work that flat out said, the reason I came back was because of the transformation I got to see in you real time, which was real for me. Which is just a place of like getting to a desire in my heart to be free and to have peace. I wouldn't say I fully feel that all the time, but I definitely feel it more than I ever have before. And it got to a place where that shift was crazy. Like, how do we overcome that? Which is like, there's all kinds of— because like, I even notice there's things now where you'll start to see things that look like indicators of the way they were in the past, and like, you shut down a bit.

Well, let me ask you this then, because is it, is it possible— because you're going to have triggers from when you were a childhood, before we were ever together, that comes into our relationship, that affects our relationship, but that was from when you were a child, and I can't do anything about those triggers, but it now affects me in our relationship. Right? So how can you let go of those childhood triggers? Can you? Have you fully? So same thing you say, we've done so much damage to each other. You do a lot of damage to yourself in your upbringing before you even get with your spouse.

Agreed.

And then you take those triggers before you even got with your spouse, and all of a sudden, they're new wounds with your spouse. So you're taking childhood abuse and now projecting it on your wife. So is it— the damage that we feel like we've done on each other, or is it a collaboration of all traumas that trigger something? And because it's your significant spouse whom you're the closest with, it's easy to kind of pinpoint that on them.

Yeah, well, for sure. But you have what happened when you were a kid, but then you have the fact we've been together for 25 years. So it's like there's a whole lot of things that went on for us as a couple.

Right, but what I'm saying— my only thing that I was saying is like, there could be past childhood traumas that weren't fully healed.

For sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you look at even the environment you're raising— you were raised in an environment without emotionally expressive parents. I love you was never a word. Touching and feeling and hugging wasn't part of your language at all. And you kind of raised yourself. So like, I came from a totally different environment where, you know, this was— when you came into my family, you had to do the hug lines at all the family reunions and hug 47 people. Like, if you left without hugging, this was disrespectful. Your family If you hugged, it was disrespectful. Like, it was like— it was a totally different frame.

Sure.

You were raised that way. I was raised another one. Here's another question with you too. Because of how dominant your mother is and how dominant my mother is, do you feel like your mother and how dominant she was as a leader in the home and your dad kind of played second fiddle? Like, your dad's an amazing man. I'm not saying he's not. But your mom is very intense. She's been very intense. I'm not saying my mom's not. But I'm not a woman, which means I looked at my dad and I said, I'm not doing that. How much do you think your mother and the way she ran the house and the way she engaged with your dad affects the way that you deal with me?

I'm sure it does. But I still think personality plays a big role in— I try to not— like, there's a lot of things my mom did that I'm like, I'm going to go out of my way because I don't like how she would talk to my dad. And I'm going to go out of my way to not do that. That's something I've been very conscious with. Since I got married, 'cause I saw that in my mom. And my mom's a wonderful person, and so is my dad, but my mom was fierce with her words. And that was one thing that I really, like I said, it's not like a new thing. That was one thing I did not admire my mom when we first got married. Second, it's interesting because I always make the comparison of Ruby and Bailey. Bailey is like, "Mom, mom, mom, mom." Okay, I'm like on the phone with her. She's like, I'm like, "Okay, well I gotta go, I'm running." She's like, "Okay, I love you, I love you, I love you." Like if I don't say love you, I'm like, "I love, love you." and then Ruby's like, I don't even think Ruby said bye. Did she? Hello? Are you there? Like, and they have both been raised— we're very affectionate with our girls, you know, and they've both been raised in the same environment, and yet there's two totally different souls. So I, I do think that how you are raised and your upbringing and like triggers and traumas and pasts play a huge role. But I also think like different people are comfortable with different things. If I come up to Ruby and do this, she's like I'm like, oh my God, if I come up to do that to Bailey, she's like, oh, keep doing that. And that's— I'm just like, you want me to be more like Bailey and I want you to be more like Ruby, you know? And it doesn't— there's no traumas or triggers. It's just an example of two kids that are raised in the same house bringing with two totally different parents and how they react to things that I'm like, we raise them the same, you know, or kind of the same.

We kind of had an inkling of who the other person was when we met. Like, we got to know a bit of our patterns when we were first together.

I think that's why we were attracted to each other. I liked that you were loud and like, like outgoing and then annoyed at the same time. And you liked that I was quiet and mysterious and annoyed at the same time. Is that not true?

For sure.

There was— there was like this chemistry and this annoyance at the same time, which probably still exists a little bit.

For sure it does. For sure it does. So do you think that it ever gets— I mean, think about it this way. If we were divorced and done and you were dating and you were off dating, what would be different about you and how you show up? And what would be different about me and how I show up if we were who we are today without having to deal with any of the weight?

I think when everybody gets into the dating phase, there's always the act. You're like, those things I did in my past relationship, they didn't serve me. I'm going to be different. And you're probably different for a while. You're in the dating phase and you show up your best dating self. And then you get annoyed with that person, and all of a sudden these past triggers that you said you were never going to bring up, and you're just now all of a sudden your new wife or your new husband is like doing stuff. Maybe it doesn't even remind you of your old husband, it's just fucking annoying. And all of a sudden you get a little chirpy, and then you're like, no, I told myself I'm not going to do this. But then you're in a relationship with another person trying to coexist and have communication. At some point you're going to be irritated. You're not always going to be in the lovey-dovey dating phase where like somebody says something stupid and you just kind of blow it off. Or maybe they don't make it, they don't say something stupid because you're both in the dating phase. So everybody's on their best behavior and then they get married and they say a few stupid things and then they get triggered and we're a little— and they don't, you know what I mean? There's no such thing as like staying— like if I was out dating, I would put on my best dating pants. Like everybody is in their best behavior, not as an act, but as intentionally trying to be a better human so they don't repeat what they had. But I don't think it's sustainable to be in that dating phase for long periods of time.

So I've watched this happen with couples. I've watched it happen with individuals. I've watched this with my guys going through divorces, which is both individuals show up differently.

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

So how do you create that in a relationship where we've been together for 25 years and we have the kids and we've got the grandbaby and we've got the life? Because like, if we were done today, for certain there's ways you would show up in a relationship with another man that is different than you're willing to show up with me. And for sure there's ways I would show up with a woman that is different than I've been willing to show.

It's like, it's like people that go and get like jacked and you're like, why?

This happens all the time.

Or like girls all of a sudden start putting on makeup and put on hair extensions, or guys all of a sudden start taking better care, get their Botox, and also their skin is great and they're cleaning up their beard and they're fit all the time and they're dressed nice, they're making a conscious effort but make sure they look good. And like during their marriage, they're like, I don't care, I can have a little bit of a soft gut and I don't need to shave and I don't need to pick up the dishes. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, I wanna date. Like I need to be attractive to other women. I've gotta like take care of myself. But it slips a little bit when you're married.

I think it slips a lot.

Not for me, I take very good care of myself.

No, I'm not talking about that. I think that there's a level of comfort. Like you have a level of comfort with how, like there's not, like if you were in a perpetual state of feeling like I'm leaving next week, Mm-hmm. Like, if you don't show up, next.

Mm-hmm.

And you— and I felt like if I don't show up, next, which would be dating. Dating is like you're in the hunt for this.

But when you're married, would you always want to live in that space of like, oh, if I don't show up to my best self, is he going to be like, next?

No, and I think that's why people get together. But the challenge with that piece is the fact that you get comfortable. You know, I can do these things and my wife or my husband is still going to show up. Even if I'm not showing up as my best self. And it gets tough with the kids and all the rest of it, because the thing I'm— I'm curious about is I feel like you and I are in this place where we're both radically different humans. But based upon what I'm sharing on this, this carousel—

it's carousels, the whole thing—

there's a piece that you still hold me hostage to who I've been, and a piece I still hold you hostage to who you've been. And like, if we were just dating for the first time, all I would have is the data of who you are right now. And whatever you shared with me. I wouldn't have 25 years of narrative. I wouldn't have last week's behavior. Like, I just— I'm like, I'm trying to figure this out because if we can figure this out—

that's why, like, that's why you always say, like, you know, women notice me, they think I'm a catch. I'm like, men notice me, they think I'm a catch.

I don't disagree.

It's because you don't have all the bullshit, you know? Like, we don't— they don't live with one another, so they just see who we are packaged up and they're like, if I was with a guy like that, or if I was with a woman like that. And you're like, well, no, everybody— that's what I was trying to say, is like, everybody's got their, like, their quirks or their dark side or whatever, that eventually that kind of fades out to where you're like, God, she— he or she looked so established and so good-looking, and like, now I'm annoyed, you know? Because everybody— it's not realistic to like— to you see somebody in that light, to see them in that light all the time.

For sure.

You cannot even— like, even with you, like, there, there's times where we're just kind of roommates or whatever, and then we'll have a date night, and I'm like, oh, I needed that. That was good connection and chemistry. And it like reminds me of like, I like you, you know? Or I really enjoy like watching you speak and train, and I can kind of see you in that light of like, I'm really proud of him, like he's such a good communicator and trainer, you know? But like when we're juggling toddlers and they're throwing spaghetti at my face, I'm not thinking he's so cute. I'm like, what are we gonna do with these kids? They're nuts, you know? So I think that there's— when you're married and you have businesses and kids, I would just say like have a little bit of gratitude for yourself and you're going to have moments. But that doesn't— like, for me, I think we're good at not— we might remember those moments, but I think we're doing better at not like holding that person hostage to that. It's just kind of like, oh, that like triggered me. But it's like, whatever, you know? At least I try to be that way. I'm like, okay, because like, I'm like, I don't want to take this so offensively because I used to like snowball and I'd be like, I'm fucking leaving him. And now I'll come up and be like, how are you feeling? Because you carry your energy so big. And I carry my energy very internal. So you can walk into a room and I'm like, ooh, he's stressed. And you'll be like, ah. And I'm like, yep, he's stressed. And I'll be like, hey, are you doing okay? Like, I don't know, maybe you're mad at me, maybe you're not. Do you need a smoothie? Like, I just am checking in on you. So like—

Has that been more of a conscious effort on your part?

Yeah, because I used to take it so personal and then it would like make me wall up right away. Like I'd be like, I could feel myself like contract, like, oh crap, I'm in trouble. Like, it just like, I felt like my whole body like closing down. And then I'm like, maybe it's not about me. Maybe it is a little bit, but maybe it'd be helpful if I just check in on him. And when I do that, I notice you kind of like your body almost like, ah, like, yeah, okay, thank you for checking in on me kind of thing. And so then I'm like, okay, whew, we're not, there's not a bomb going off, we're good.

I think at the end, if you look at—

But I'm very in tune with energy, like I'm— and so it's— I'm very sensitive to it. So it's kind of— it can be very hard for me. Like, that's like— it really like rattles my nervous system.

But you also— and the one thing you have is you have a huge strength in your world, which is the ability to not do what you don't want to do. Like, you're very committed to like, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. This is where my line is. How do you decide to cross a line even if it's not something that you inherently desire knowing? Because there's stuff we do with the kids all the time where it's not like we want to do it.

No, there's shit I do all the time I don't want to do. People think I love working out. I'm like, most mornings I don't want to work out and I do it. I'm like, I hate technology. I fucking hate it. And I will be like, OK, well, I need to figure this out. I'll spend a couple hours trying to figure something out. I do a lot of things I don't want to do, but I know when I get it done, I'm like, oh, that wasn't— as hard as I thought it was gonna be. There's a lot of things with our kids that I don't wanna do. I don't wanna drive 'em 45 minutes each way. You know, like, I would say 50 to 70% of the stuff I don't want to do. But I also am at a place, I don't really know what you mean by that, 'cause I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I'm very good at not doing, like most of the stuff I don't wanna do.

No, you're very good at like, this is like, I tend to default more to, like, obligation.

Oh, I don't. I hate— I don't.

I know. I know. That's what I'm saying is you don't default to obligation. So, like, if you take sex or you take anything with the kids or, like, there's no sense in you of I'm obliged to do this. You actually, like, push it away, which I don't think is a bad thing. I think it's a very strong characteristic. I'm different in the fact that I was raised differently. My patterns are different, which is I feel like I go too far across the line.

You give too much, and then if they give you like, you go like 70%, and then if I only give 20, you're like, I just gave you 70. And I was like, I didn't ask for 70. You decided to overgive, but that has kind of screwed us because you are such a giver, and that's why we have people almost like coming after us. Like they had the most success they've ever had, and you, 'cause you give too much.

How does that work out in relationship? Like it's a weird thing for me because like I want to give to you, I want to give to our kids.

Yeah, I think you enjoy it.

But I feel like even in our dynamic, I have to actually try to ignore you at a certain level because at least that's my story, which is like I am, I'm too much in my energy and giving for you. And so like I've had to play in a different place of like, okay, well, what is enough energy to her without pushing her over the edge, without having her feel like it's too much, which puts me in my head and thinking, which then has me focus on the kids or focus on the business. We're better now than we've ever been. I'm better at navigating that. But it's still this place of, like, confusion at times for me of, like, how— how am I supposed to— you're like, be yourself. You're like, well, if I be myself, it's too much. Like, it's, like, too much. And you're like, OK, so don't be all of yourself. Just be, like, a part of yourself.

But when you're dating, are you going to be, like, overly over the top? No, you kind of, like, reel it in a little bit.

I don't know.

You got to play the game a little bit.

If I dated now— I would be— I would do me. Like, I would— like, if you— that's why I say if you and I were dating now, it'd be very interesting if we had never known each other and we were just dating now. Like, would we line up? Like, based on who you are right now after— at 43, who I am at 50, after all these years, we didn't have the history. We have good chemistry, but there's things you show up in I wouldn't tolerate, and there's things I show up in you wouldn't tolerate.

Like, today, if we were dating, if we were dating, I think there'd still be chemistry there. I've always felt like we've had, like, kind of like— we have moments where you just kind of, like, look at each other and it's like our souls kind of, like, connect. And we're both good-looking and established. And so I think that there would definitely be an attraction. I think we would— I think we could date.

For sure we would.

I think— I'm sure I would see signs in you where I'm like, I don't like that. But I don't know, because you're more calm now. So I think, like, had I met you now, I might be like— I've not had, like, the old, like, very reactive Garrett. I don't know. I'm like, you're older and safer. I've been like, oh, perfect. This guy's 7 years older than me. He's established. He's so safe. That's very sexy. I'm in my 40s. I don't need this— the fun boys. I need safety. I might have fun with the fun boys, and then I'd be like—

You for sure would. All right, ready? Continues. The greatest prison in marriage isn't the house. It isn't the schedule. It isn't the kids. It's the identity you've assigned your spouse. We all create frames. This is who my husband is. This is who my wife is. Over time, those frames become stronger than reality. The tragedy: your spouse may have spent years growing, healing, changing, becoming, and you never noticed because you stopped looking. Sometimes a husband who is emotionally unavailable has learned how to be present. Sometimes a wife who shut down emotionally has learned how to trust again, but neither receives credit for becoming someone new. When growth goes unseen, both stop growing together, not because they don't love each other, because they no longer feel known.

Hmm. Seen.

Every human being wants one thing: to be seen. For who they are today, not forever judged by who they were yesterday. The strongest marriages continually ask new questions. Who are you becoming? What are you dreaming about now? What scares you today? What has changed inside you? Curiosity keeps love alive. Assumption slowly kills it. Many couples don't fall out of love, they fall out of discovery. They stop exploring, they stop asking, they stop listening, they stop being surprised by one another. This is not the end. It keeps going. But like, I don't know. I just feel like we're knocking on the door of something new.

Yeah, I remember.

How much— how often are you just irritated? Like, at the— at the— just the evolution of us. How many times in marriage with me are you irritated at me or irritated at us over where things are not? Don't tell me zero. It's not zero.

Oh, no. I was going to say, at least right now.

Like, yeah.

I'm in this weird place 'cause like our condo is unreal and like it's beautiful. Like the view, it's very calm. And we had built such a fast-paced life in California and like a huge house and tons of cars. And you just turned 50 this year. And so I feel like we're contracting a little bit, which I knew we needed to. I was like, our heads are gonna spin off. Like we've gotta slow down. And so we moved to Miami and didn't contract, and now we're in contraction mode. But in my soul, I knew this, but it feels like you kinda are pumping the brakes, and I'm used to going so fast. And so part of me, one of my problems is I always think I need to be further ahead in life. I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, 'cause I can be very present, and it's this weird catch-22, 'cause I can be in where we're at, feel this sense of gratitude and our kids are so cute. And even though I'm a grandma now, I'm like, and it's weird to be a grandma. I'm like, oh, she's so freaking cute. So I can be in a space of irritated and grateful all in one afternoon. It's a shit show. And so it's almost like I'm in my head and I'm in my heart like all the time. And so I get to this place, not of irritation of like, I'm like, it's like I knew we needed to do this in order to sustain for a minute. But I'm also like, I thought we'd be further ahead. Like we have all these freaking like massive friends and billionaires around us. And I'm like, I thought be further ahead. So I don't know, I think that once a day.

I get it, I get it. I think for me, like most— if I'm completely straight, like my— most of my measurement stick for success in marriage is our ability to talk and share scary things, share truth with each other. Like, can we do that? And I feel like we're in a place where we can do that at a level we've never been able to before from both directions. And the second one is like feeling connected. Like, I know how important like the cuddling was with you without always feeling like you— like I was going to have sex. Because for years, if we cuddled at all, I was like, we're having sex. Like, I was like— it was the mode I was in. But the last couple years, it hasn't been like that at all. I think we— I was telling you this, we don't have sex on date night 95% of the time. Most of the time, we come home from date night and it's just a cuddle. And which has been a huge, beautiful thing. It's opened up the last couple years that we did not have for a long time, which was— which I can now understand from your frame how if every time we cuddled or every time you were naked, my mind was like, we're having sex, which didn't happen. It just turned into frustration and disappointment for you, or you felt pushed and pressured. Here's why I'm coming with this, like, on my place. You had proposed something. We're in Costa Rica. I'm not going to give the full nine of what the details were, but it was scheduled. We don't have to answer this question today. It'll set us up for the next show. Scheduled sex, just like we schedule date night.

I didn't bring that up in Costa Rica.

You did. 4 times a week. It was a different proposal.

Well, it wasn't with me then.

It was with you. It was a different proposal. We won't talk about it on the show. What I'm saying is like that. Like, I read something about this yesterday too. Like with tantric, they look at it as like temple night. Which is like there's a specific moment you're creating every week that is just for you and your spouse. No phones, no technology. It's not a normal date night where intimacy and sexuality is scheduled, planned that way. Like the intention going in, just like we go to the gym this morning, the intention is to work out. You're going to do your stuff. I'm going to do my stuff. We're going to hang out at the gym. You down with trying this? No. You're not down to try it?

Like, why wouldn't you say scheduled sex? Like, oh, it's too much pressure.

No, it's not just sex. It's scheduled intimacy, which is evening where the intention is to be physical, spiritual, mentally connected.

Yeah, I already feel myself like kind of like walling up a little bit. Like, I don't know. I just don't like— I don't know. I'll have to process it.

You should investigate that. We'll see where we're somewhere. Like, for real, like, it's like—

like when you say schedule for sex 4 times a week, I'm like, that's a lot.

We don't have sex 4 times a week. I know we don't have sex 4 times a week. I didn't say it. I'm saying like the idea of scheduled intimacy. We schedule everything else.

I mean, we kind of— I was here, you know, it was— I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, I feel like for years I was this, the spontaneity one. Like, I was always like, hey, kids are downstairs, like Sunday afternoon, like whatever. Hey, it's the morning, like whatever. Like, like I was the one that was spontaneous, like all the time. Vacations, like everything, I was the one that was like spontaneous. And then I kind of stopped being spontaneous, and I realized you're not spontaneous at all.

Well, we'll talk about this on another episode. If you—

well, I just feel like I, I wouldn't say spontaneous. I felt like I was like the initiator.

Yeah.

And I got tired of being the initiator.

So I was like, well, it's easy to be the initiator when the answer is going to be yes 99% of the times you initiate. Where it becomes difficult is when you're the initiator and the answer is no 90% of the time.

So 90%, 90%. You don't even initiate enough to— you don't initiate enough.

I don't initiate because you don't initiate ever. The carnage of the first 15 to 18 years of notes.

You just, you just said you, you can't hold 15 to 18 notes. It goes up every year.

If you, if you look at this, goes up every—

we've only been married for 22 years.

We've been married for 23 this year, been together for 25.

We didn't get married till— can't count the years we were dating because we were having sex.

That's good.

We've been married 17 years. That number changes all the time. You're like For the first 18 years of our marriage, I'm like—

But you're asking me— you're saying I don't want to initiate. But I want you just to look at this, and we'll wrap the show for today. And we'll talk about it on the next episode. If you knew that you taking an action is a yes 99% of the time, it makes it easy to initiate because you don't face rejection. When I know the answer is going to be no 70% to 80% of the time—

You can't say 70% to 80% of the time. You don't initiate.

You don't initiate. Because why?

Because the initiation is constant. Well, you can't say you can't 70 or 80% because you don't initiate. I literally don't remember the last time you initiated this whole year. I don't think you've initiated. So if you talk about sex going down and you haven't initiated, I don't know what to tell you. If you're like worried about being turned down, like, then, and you're not initiating at all, then you're going to get less sex. But if it's like at least every other or 50%, you might be like, okay. It wasn't tonight, but maybe tomorrow night. But instead you're like, you just don't initiate whatsoever. And there's been times you have good communication and you'll be like, I don't want to say this on a podcast, I'm not going to, but I'll be like, okay, you know, makes sense. And it's like, you're like, hey, I can initiate. Where you at? And you'll just ask me basically. And I'll be like, I got to be honest. I had like a crazy day and I, can we listen to music and go to sleep? You know, and you're like, okay, can I take a rain check? And you got a rain check, you know. So that's kind of like planned sex.

Okay, well, we got to wrap this up.

So that wasn't really a shutdown. Do you see what I'm— do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, it was like communication.

I get it. Well, we got some stuff to work on. We got to wrap this up because we got a training starting here in studio in like 5 minutes.

I like to leave people on pins and needles for the next one.

We'll continue to talk about this next week. Also, if you go to dateyourwife.com/live, you can join us every week with with a bunch of couples where we don't really have any answers, we just have a lot of conversation as couples around this topic and the other. So you talk about the stack and all of a sudden you want to step in with us, we'd love to have you. Go to dateyourwife.com/live and we look forward to seeing you there. That brings us to another episode here of the Date Your Wife podcast.