All About Western Muzzleloaders with Chad Eidson

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To the Hunt west podcast, here's your host, Jaden Bales. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Hunt west podcast. This is your host, Jaden Bales. And today I have my friend Chad on the. On the line. Chad and I have been kind of Internet buddies for a long time and Actually, Chad, the last time you and I talked on a podcast is when I was running Mealy Mondays back in the day. That was what, 20, 21 or something? It was a while ago.

Yeah, it's been a while.

Yeah. Well, thanks for hopping on. For those who might not remember those old days, what do you do for a living? Kind of give us a 30, 000 foot view of what you got going on.

So I work for the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife in land management. So I'm a wildlife area manager. So land management, recreation management, all the stuff like that.

Yeah. So when it comes to wildlife stuff, you don't need to get mad at Chad. He's doing the land stuff. Right? Is that the how that works?

Yeah, that would be great if that's how it works.

Well, one of the beauties of your job is you get to hunt quite a bit in different states, right?

Yeah. Yep, definitely.

How many, how many tags on average are you trying to get a year?

Usually minimum of two out of state. I've done up to three. That gets to pushing it, depending on what kind of hunts they are. You only got so much time off.

Oh, that's for sure. Well, you like to travel quite a bit. You were out in Wyoming here recently. I think you're looking at coming back here in the next little while, aren't you?

Yeah, definitely. I'd like to come to Wyoming as often as I possibly can. Whenever they give me a tag, I'll come back.

No, that's awesome. So today I really wanted to sit down and pick your brain on muzzleloader stuff. I. I've been dabbling. I have a muzzleloader sitting over here in the corner that my grandfather gave me. He bought it and this is kind of some interesting background. So he bought it from a pawn shop the first year that they started a muzzleloader whitetail tag in eastern Oregon where. Where I grew up. And so he was like, oh, we're gonna muzzleloader hunt these whitetails, you know, in the rut. And apparently it was pretty good hunt, even for a bunch of old guys running around in pickup trucks. But essentially, since man, 2010, something like that, I haven't shot a muzzleloader, so I really don't know what I have, and I don't know where to go. So if you feel comfortable, man, I'm gonna be looking for some advice today, and hopefully somebody else wants this advice too.

Yeah, no, I mean, there's kind of. Muzzle loaders are kind of interesting if you look at, like, the west, you know, from a regulation standpoint. If you compare, you know, say, a modern firearm, you know, you go down to the store, you buy a.30 06 and throw a scope on it, and essentially you can hunt all the western states short of, like, Utah's New Seasons. I mean, there's really not much regulation when it comes to modern firearms, a little bit when it comes to archery. But, like, muzzleloaders are sort of a. A category where every state has different regulations. What's legal in one state isn't legal in another state. You might have to take a scope off, you might have to change, you know, something. And so, you know, I've kind of dove into, like, how you can set up a muzzleloader, be the most efficient to cover multiple states, how you can set up a muzzle loader to be the most efficient, you know, from a, like, a range standpoint. And then you got states like, you know, your Montana heritage season, where, like, there is no efficiency that's like, ultra primitive, you know, so, you know, it takes, like, if you want to start applying for muzzleloader hunts, especially, like, across multiple states, you kind of have to, like, dive into the regs, understand, like, what. What's legal, where it's legal, and understand, like, how to sort of maximize your potential with what you got. So, I mean, you could certainly go from the perspective of, like, you can get the lowest tech and it's legal everywhere, essentially. But you're, you know, with a. With a primitive style muzzleloader that's legal in that, like, Montana season, you're leaving a lot on the table when it comes to other states that, that have, like, more lax regulations around, you know, the seasons and the, the technology and the equipment. So, you know, it really kind of comes down to, like, where you want to get into it. There's a lot of folks that are obviously in a muzzleloader because, like, they want to, you know, be Jeremiah Johnson and, like, that's cool too. But I sort of taken it to the other extreme of like, figuring out where you know, what, what's legal and, and how you can maximize it. Here in Washington over the last, like, six or eight years, we've. We've really liberalized our, our technology that's allowed in Muzzleloader seasons. You know, we used to be like Oregon, Idaho, Washington used to be sort of like the quote unquote northwest legal muzzleloader world. You had to have an open ignition. You couldn't have 209 primers. No, no you know, magnified sites, nothing like that. And then we allowed, I don't know, 209s became legal. So then they went to a closed ignition. And then like rapidly, like two years later we, we end up with scopes, 1x scopes or red dot. So you know, here in Washington we're, we're pretty technology forward when it comes to regulations now. You know, Idaho and Oregon are still pretty primitive. Not quite as primitive as Montana. And then you jump around the west. You know, if you look at like Utah, Utah's you could have three different muzzleloaders in Utah. You know, they gotta, they now have a primitive season that's going to be open ignition. So much like the Northwest they've got a hams hunt that is no optics. But you could use, to my understanding you could use like a 209 primer would be legal. And then they've got like their standard muzzleloader seasons which allow 1x scope. So you know, the state of Utah, you know, you might, you might want to have multiples or you might want to have like one that has a changeable breach. You know, there's some things you can do if you really look across the west. There's two ways that that muzzle loaders are regulated. It's either the optic system. So you can either have you know, states that don't allow a scope or maybe limit that scope to 1x. There's states, you know, Arizona still allows you to have variable power scope, as does Wyoming for the four pronghorn hunts they have. So you know, there's that then there's states that only allow open sites. So you know, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho, Oregon. And then there's like Utah with, with the 1x and Washington with the 1x. So there's three different optical systems that are acceptable depending on where you're at. And then the other place is ignition. You know, so primitive would be, you know, like a percussion cap or a musket cap. You know, that's what's legal in Idaho, Oregon, that Montana season. Other places, you know, you can use a shotgun primer or you can use something like a very flame system. So you're actually shooting like a large rifle primer. So that, I mean there is caliber restrictions some places. You know, I think like you gotta have a 50 cal to shoot at elk in Mont or in Colorado. But you know, that's not, that's, that's the only one that's like somewhat prohibitive for the rest of. It's like most, most guys aren't shooting 40 cows. Those are restricted in some places. And then like there is some bullet restrictions. So Colorado, you have to have like a full bore bullet. You can shoot a power belt, but it's got to be like full bore. Idaho just went to that. But then Idaho just legislatively actually allowed sabbaths just like a couple weeks ago. So that's coming up too. So there are some like other, other things out there, but if you really look at it, it's like ignition and your optic system. So depending on where you're hunting, you got to figure out like, you know, what's legal, where you're at and what makes the most sense for you to do that.

Makes sense. So how in the world did you get down this rabbit hole? Like, did someone teach you about all this or did you just like, oh, I see some opportunities.

I want to learn a little bit of both. You know, I got a buddy that like was into the Washington muzzleloader game like for a long, long time and was sort of even maximizing the technology even, even back then with, you know, better peeps and, and like really trying to like extend range or make your, make your rifle actually go off so more, more reliable. And then, you know, seeing other states and sort of seeing the opportunities, I mean, draws is the biggest, you know, draws are better for muzzleloader hunts in general. And if you're looking to draw tags, you know, you're giving up a lot, you know, to a, to a modern firearm, but you're not giving up as much as you probably were 10 years ago, depending on the regulations again, I mean, you know, that Montana heritage season, you're giving up a lot. That's a tough time of year to hunt with a muzzleloader because it's cold, it's, you know, going to be wet potentially. But you know, you get some opportunity. So in Washington, if you look at, you know, our seasons, I never grew, I didn't grow up hunting with a muzzleloader because I hunted modern firearm. We didn't really have an opportunity to hunt multiple different weapon types. But we in like, I don't know, 12, 15 years ago, the department came out with like a multi season tag and you could draw a multi season deer elk tag. And for a long time the deer tag was super easy to draw. Like 100% odds you could just basically pick it up. And that allowed you to hunt the general season with different weapon types. So you know that, that got me interested in muzzleloader hunting. I, I will say the interesting part of like getting into it is Washington liberalizing our, our regulations. I've seen a huge increase in the amount of folks that are out there muzzleloader hunting especially, you know, the multi season tag has gotten really popular. It's actually hard to draw now. So people are looking for that opportunity and then you know, anything that, that sort of makes the learning curve easier and that's, you know, those, those ignition types and then now throwing a red.or 1x on it like it makes it easier for everybody. So you know, certainly folks are taking advantage of that. But you know, I, I went to Utah last year on a muzzleloader hunts. I've tried to draw muzzle hunts in a lot of other states. It's just, it gives you, it gives you a little bit of a leg up on it on a draw odds or maybe it gives you a better season and it's not exclusive. You know, I don't hunt with a muzzle loader for the idea that I like to hunt with a muzzle loader because it's muzzleloader. It's really just, you know, sort of opportunity based.

Yeah. So what was like your first experience with the muzzleloader? Like I'm trying to think about like you know, what, what challenges maybe you had from the get go like compared to doing just a modern firearm or classic rifle.

So the one thing that you will find out with a muzzle loader that, that caused me to wound a deer. The first deer ever shot at with a muzzle loader. I shot the muzzle loader in the summer. You know, I got this idea, I'm going to do this multi season deal. This was back when we couldn't use 209. We were with musket C or musket or percussion caps, open ignition, open sights, shot it well enough to be like you know, feeling really good about shooting 100 yards or 125 yards. And I had gear like way closer than that. But he was walking. And the lock time on a muzzle loader is something that you have to see to believe when you're shooting at a stationary target, you know, at the range you can keep it pretty straight. But like in the field, you know, your form better be really, really dialed. And I hit way back from, from where I was aiming. And then subsequently after that I think the next couple times a shot like didn't go off. I had a crappy muzzleloader at the time. So the, the, you know, the cap would go off, the powder wouldn't go off or vice versa. You can, you know, the cap would, would not go off. I mean those days were like. And I had several buddies at muzzleloaded at the time. And I remember it being like, I swear they were like the 50, 50 category. Like 50% of the time the muzzleloader actually went off when they shot at something. And 50% of the time you got a click and, and nothing else. So yeah, that was like frustrating. And actually you know, I didn't, I didn't really like get hooked on, on like trying to figure out muzzleload because of that. But then you know, when we went to 209 primers kind of like realized that that was a pretty big step up. And then like I said, I had a buddy who was, who was pretty proficient at sort of picked his brain and, and figured some stuff out. And at that point, you know, muzzleloader became a lot more viable weapon. And again at the time the multi season here in Washington was, was still easy to draw. So basically every year had the opportunity if I didn't get one in archery season to hunt muzzleloader season.

Oh, that makes a lot of sense, man. This might be a dumb question, but what's the difference between like a 201 primer and a percussion cap? Because I feel like I see that word 209 primer a lot and I don't quite comprehend like what the difference is.

So if you looked at them like on a great, like the big, it's just more flame, it's more fire.

Okay.

Which more reliably ignites everything. So a cap is you know, essentially a percussion cap. That is a muzzleloader cap. It is made for muzzle loader have a number 11 cap which is the small style and they make those like in magnums, which is a little bit more fire which is what I would personally recommend if you're going to shoot a number 11. They make musket caps. So you would you know, on a side lock muzzle loader, you or even a, a inline, you know, your nipple is what you put the cap on. Your nipple is specific to the cap type. So you'd want like a musket nipple if you were going to shoot musket caps which technically have more fire, should more reliably ignite. Those are still like on a real low scale to a 209 which is a shotgun primer. So it's the same Primer in your 12 gauge. It's, you know, that's, you go to the store, you buy 209 primers. Like the newest, newest technology is like the variaflame system or any of the module systems like arrowhead muzzle loaders and making, you're shooting a large rifle primer. So the same, you know, primer that's in a, you know, it's got a little module that you prime with the large rifle primer and then it goes, goes into your bolt. So it's just steps up and fire. The amount of fire that's coming out of your nipple into the powder charge is going to drastically increase the reliability of lighting that load on fire. Or like not getting a hang fire where you get like some ignition but it, you know, it like hangs for a second or, or whatever. And in that whole interim like the big technology or one of the big technology advancements is blackhorn powder. So it's like a, you know, if you go to powders, you think muzzleloader people call it black powder. Well, there is black powder like true black powder, but then there's like Pyridex is a black powder substitute triple seven. But Blackhorn is sort of the most advanced one and that takes, so this is like a two part thing that takes a lot of fire to ignite. You really can't ignite it with like a musket cap or, or percussion cap. So you can't shoot it in, you know, primitive muzzle loaders or, or even like you can struggle to ignite it with weak.209 primers. Like you want 209 magnums made for Blackhorn. And then Blackhorn really ignite ignites reliably with the module systems with stuff with a lot of fire. And so Blackhorn just has sort of more energy capability. It's also super easy to clean and it's less smoky. So you know, if you're, if you're trending towards side other than the obscene price of it, it's like a no brainer to be shooting Blackhorn if it's legal and you can do it with the, you know, with the technology you're allowed. So you know that, that has really driven that sort of desire to have more fire. I mean I think if you're just lighting up pyro decks or something like that, you know you're going to be pretty consistent. If you're diligent about cleaning your, your system, you're going to be very consistent with it with a.209 and even you know, musket caps and, and percussion caps are going to light it most of the time, provided everything's good.

So is Pyrodex kind of like. So your, your black horn is like your kind of top level stuff and then Pyrodex is like the kind of do all for the, the mid to more primitive stuff?

Yeah, I think so. I mean I think like triple seven is sort of like in there between those two. But I don't think you're, you know, I'm not it. Not authority on the, the primitive stuff. I don't think too many folks are lighting that with, with a percussion cap in like a primitive muzzle loader. I mean I think that's sort of the interim. You know, the muzzleloader game got really big like in the Midwest in a lot of places where you know, they don't allow high power rifles. So you know, guys were shooting muzzle loaders and they wanted more reliability. That's what like drove the 209 craze and then you know, kind of came to, to the west it seems like. So there's sort of like you know, ultra top end, ultra primitive and then there's sort of like some, some variability there in the middle.

Okay, that makes sense. So like during the, during the pandemic or different presidential elections, are primers real hard to find? Like, especially like the 209 or is it. Are the easy, are the, are the more primitive primers easier to find?

Man, that has gone back and forth. I mean the easiest thing to find right now probably is something in a variaflame module because you can buy number of, of large rifle primers. I think you can find 209s like the Magnum 209s to light Blackhorn. If you weren't light in black horn. If you were just lighting like triple seven in, in a muzzle loader that, that took a two nine. I think you can find that pretty darn easily. You know, shotgun primers are available. It's just if you're going to do the black corn, you want, you want a lot of fire out of those. So you don't want just the, the standard, the percussion caps. I mean a lot of it comes down to like what gets stocked at sporting goods stores. You know, there's, there's a place you know, in Coeur d' Alene that like you can walk in and they have all the musket primers, you know, all the percussion caps you could ever want. And then you know, over here in Washington, like those are hard to find generally because, you know, not as many folks are shooting them anymore. So. But like mail order, I think you can find it pretty easily. These.

Oh yeah. I didn't even think about the fact that you can pretty much just mail order everything.

All primers and all caps. Got real hard there for a while.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I didn't realize that you could just, you can just buy stuff right from, from the Internet and ship it to you for muzzle loader hunting.

Yeah, well, you could buy a muzzleloader itself because there's no FFL on that. That's not a, that's not a regulated firearm. Unless you're talking about like a Remington 700. That's literally a rifle action with a muzzleloader barrel on it. And then that is a serialized rifle that requires an ffl.

Okay. So it really ends up being like the action that drives whether or not you need the ffl.

Correct. I mean that, that same goes for a modern rifle. You know, you can ship a barrel, you can ship a stock, but you cannot ship an action without a, you know, without an ffl.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Cool, man. Gosh, there's a lot, there's a lot of things to unpack here. You know, one of the things, you know, Colorado Francis is a really popular state for, for muzzleloader hunting. And I know a lot of guys seem to be picking up like the adjustable peep sites like that Gunworks makes or I think Revic is their optics company. Are adjustable peep sites a thing like how do you think about the sighting system when you're not using a scope?

Well, the interesting thing about like a sighting system, so if you're using a variable power scope, you know, like if you're in a state like Arizona that's going to allow that or New Mexico used to. I mean guys are reaching out to distances that are incredible. Like a high powered modern muzzleloader is very capable of rifle like performance. So you know, with a variable power scope and a turret and some good data, you can be very deadly to a long, long ways. When you drop back either to a 1x or a peep site, the muzzleloader is still that capable. And even like a middle of the road muzzle loader produces, you know, enough energy. The trajectory is not horrible depending on what you're shooting. Like the limiting factor with both a 1x and a peep site is your eyes. Okay. Like I've had situ, you know, like a peep site, you know, at the range, you know, before, like so Williams Makes like a. The. They call it their western precision peep site kit or whatever, where it's like, you know, a peep. And then they have a front globe with interchangeable crosshairs. Before that existed, you had to like, order that from like three different vendors. You had to buy the globe from one place. And then you had to buy the interchangeable, like, crosshairs from a different place that were made for like silhouette big boar shooting. And then, you know, you had to find a peep site. And you know, I. I did that before Williams came out with theirs. So I had a peep site, you know, before we went to 1X. And I mean, there was times where you'd have a deer. You know, you're looking at it through your binoculars. It's 20 minutes before you know, the end of shooting time. And you look at it through your peep and you're like, well, I can see that there's like something over there, but I couldn't tell you if I was on the front or the back of the deer. And then you're doing the, like, pick your crosshairs up over its back to see your crosshairs clearly and then drop them down into the deer and you can't see them. And so like the, The p. The. Your eyes will always be the limiting thing. Like, I've seen guys shoot 3 or 400 yards at the range with a peep. With a dialable peep. You know, Williams makes one. The Revic makes what? Like, you can do it, but it's still like your eyes and the lighting and the contrast. So like at the range, if you paint your, you know, you put a white target up on like a back black or dark background, and you can like really have that contrast. You can shoot a long ways, you know, easier. But when you put like a low contrasting target up against the backstop, like, or low light, etc. Like, we don't even realize, you know, I mean, you hear guys talk about like low light gathering capabilities of scopes, but I mean, every scope I've ever put my eye up to is good till shooting time. You know, like, I mean, like, you don't have a problem. You know, you pull your binos up at shooting time and you're like, oh man, I can still see just fine. Well, when you, you know, when you don't have that, and even when you go to 1x, I mean, you're talking about usually small tubes and really small objectives on a 1x or a red dot. It's the same thing. Like you lose that light gathering ability. It's better than a peep, you know, but it's like you lose a lot of it. So yes, like the dialable peep, that kind of thing like will get you the range because the gun is capable of more range. But you know, you got to figure out if you're capable of seeing that. Well, and then again it's not, it's very situation specific. You, your maximum range will not be like throughout the day will change or it won't be what it is at the range. And everybody should probably say that for every weapon is what you can fling an arrow at at the range versus what you'll shoot. An animal is different. And rifle too. But you know, under the right conditions, you know, I shot, I put a 1x on last year because I had that Utah tag and Washington went to 1X. I mean I shot a lot and I, I, you know, had the, the red dot loophole makes a red dot that has a turret on it. It's cut for a like a 223, but it does have moa marks on it. So you can, you know, run your ballistics, figure it out. You know, the new bullets you can, you, they post a BC so you can run it through your calculator. And you know, at the range I was really good to like 300 yards if I was shooting at a gong that I could, you know, the red dot you can turn up and down so you can make it just a pin prick of a little red. You know, if I was shooting at a target that I could put the red in the middle of and see around the outside of it. So I knew I was really settled up. Like 300 yards was very doable with the 1x with a 45 cal CVA running a max charge of Blackhorn. But in the field, like 300 yards just wasn't happening. I, I, the deer I shot at in Utah, I had it at 150 and it was like lower light, it was in the shade and they were in some rocks and I mean I put it on it and I, there was like no way I could tell if I was on the doe or the buck next to it. And I was like, I gotta get closer. And so I just crawled down and finally like 110 yards, I was like, okay, I can see well enough to like put it. But I had to turn my, my, my red dot up some. I lost some of that, you know, real pinpoint accuracy because the dot got bigger and brighter. So it covers more of the Deer. So even like with that red dot or that one X, like, the lighting is gonna really dictate, like, how far you can shoot. It's. It really isn't. I mean, I will say, like, for a primitive like that Montana heritage season, your muzzleloader is only capable of so much depending on your sighting system. But even like a primitive muzzleloader, there's guys shooting those, like, tremendous distances at these contests and rendezvous. Like, it's really the sighting system and your ability to. To see well enough to. To make, make the shot. It's not like the weapon's not capable of it. It's really you and your eyes, dude.

That makes sense. So with these like, primitive, primitive versions, you know, I like the Jeremiah Johnson. I like this. I also have a. I have a Montana tag this year, and I'm looking at the schedule going. Like, the only time I think I can get out there might be December, depending on how the rest of the draws go. And when you're thinking about that, though, can you put on, like, are there any restrictions on the type of, of of fixed site that you can put on there? Like, can you put a peep on in every state?

So I don't. I haven't read the Montana language specifically, but I believe they. Generally the language that gets used is open or peep site. You know, I mean, I. There. I've never run across anybody that's differentiating between, you know, I think a peep site is generally referred to as considered an open site. So I've yet to see off the top of my head someplace that restricts you to just like, you know, a post and a notched front sight.

Okay.

Yeah. I mean, everybody. I. That used to be the thing was everybody was running a peep back here, even when you couldn't, you know, you couldn't use 209s or anything like that. The peep a peep is, is. I mean, and part of the reason a peep is generally more effective is because it's. Guys are replacing their front bead. The biggest thing you run into with iron sights on most muzzleloaders, if you go down to, you know, Sportsman Warehouse or Cabela's, and you just grab a muzzle loader off the shelf that comes with iron sights. Lots of them have like a big fiber optic bead on the end as. And you know, it's to draw your eye and everything. But what you realize is when you start pushing the envelope of distance and you know, for open sites, that's like 150 yards. I think you Start covering a huge chunk of the deer or whatever you're shooting at. Like, you just lose your ability for precision. So then you want to replace your front sight with something smaller. And going back to that globe and that super fine crosshair, it's like, well, it's great for like precision work. And I could shoot further, but there's a happy medium there too where, you know, you got to be able to see it, you know, later into the day. I mean, I know some guys, you can take your people, they have different apertures so you can screw out your, your peep to like what it essentially is like a ghost ring back site, you know, so it's a much larger aperture so there's more light coming through so you'd be able to see. But again, you're losing some precision there. So it's all one big trade off. You know, if you're going to shoot an elk in the timber at 50 yards, like you know, a buckhorn, you know, rear, rear knock sight in the front post is going to be totally, you know, good enough for that. But you know, if you're going to push it out, like it doesn't take very far, you know, on like a deer for like a large front sight to really start being like covering up a good portion of the deer.

Okay, so that makes a lot of sense. There's like, like you said, there's a happy medium here. Is there? So basically like this Williams company are saying this is how much I don't know. Like this Williams company is one of like the main providers of different accessories and stuff sites.

They make, they make sites for literally all sorts of, you know, lots of this is for like, you know, cowboy action shooting type stuff. I mean they're making, they're making iron sites and peep sites, open sites for a whole variety of different, different deals. And so, you know, if you look at Revic, I mean they've built a, you know, gunworks built a peep site for modern muzzleloader hunting. That's what they did. Williams is making gun sights for a whole bunch of different things, but they are also in the muzzleloader game. So they have a peep that is dialable. It's different than the Revic concept, but it is dialable. And then they make a whole host of front sights depending on, you know, your brand and rifle that you're using. So there, I mean that's the one I have the most familiarity with. Before they existed, you had to buy or before they were making, you know, their package deals. I Think I had to buy like a Williams peep for the back. It was like a Lyman globe site for the front and then it was a Lee shaver inserts for the front. So you had to buy it from three different people and put it together. Now Williams is, is doing that and you know, it's selling it as a kit with like interchangeable. And then they do like Williams does have, now they have a fiber optic pin that you could put in there too. And you could actually stack a couple of those because you, you unscrew the aperture and like stack your crosshair, you know, put your crosshair insert so you could like stack a.in there for the end of the day or something. You know, if you wanted a little bit more like, you could definitely experiment with it.

Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. God, that's a whole, I mean that's a whole rabbit hole to go down is like what site you put on and how you configure it and all the things, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean like I said earlier, you know, comparing it to like a modern rifle, it's like nobody, you know, there's like the most restriction you see on a scope. It seems like it's like Idaho says you can't have electrics, you know, electrics in your scope. But other than like, you know, you buy a 3 by 9 or 3 by 15 scope, like you pretty much can hunt anywhere with it. And that's just not the, not the case with muzzleloaders.

Oh, that makes sense. Okay, so I have to ask you a little bit about. This is kind of fun. I have to ask you a little bit about different brands, specifically, you know, of some brands or like some models that I think people would run into. And this is why I say it's kind of fun. I have a. I'm on gun broker right now and I'm bidding on an invest arm.50 caliber black powder rifle, octane barrel. This is, this would be like the rifle for Montana and Oregon or Idaho. Right. Like it's pretty dang primitive. I'm actually winning currently with a current bid of $251.50 and it ends in 27 minutes units.

Perfect.

Yeah. So between like the invest arm, you sent me another one that I'm trying to pull up here.

Yeah, Thompson Center. I think you know what are kind.

Of the, you know, what are kind of like the, the entry level, like starter type rifle or muzzle loaders that you might like, guys might want to start looking at. I mean like the Ruger Americans of The world or the, the savage 110s?

Yeah, if so it, that depends on the regulation side. So if you're, if you're looking to like not hunt like Montana's the one that throws the biggest loop. Like if you're, if you're gonna cut that, that season out, literally to my knowledge, every other state you could use an inline muzzle loader in. So it doesn't have to be a side lock. So if you looked at something like, so this is where you know, being versatile, you could like CVA makes like the Wolf. Is there like cheap entry level one, I think, you know, it's like 250, 300 bucks. They make an Optima that's the next level up from that. And then they make like an MRX or LRX that's sort of their top of the line muzzle loader. Now that they don't make a Paramount, but any of those have interchangeable breech plugs. And so they make a Northwest legal breech plug so that you could. Which has just a cut in it so that the primer is exposed. And then you know, it's got an interchangeable nipple. So you could use a percussion cap. In a state that requires that you could then get a different breech plug. Like I have one, I have a CVA. I have a 209 breach plug for it that's totally enclosed. So that would be legal in quite a few states. I have a very aflame breach plug for it that's totally enclosed. That's legal in the states that allow you to, you know that. No, all bets are off. And then I have a Northwest breach plug for it that would be legal in Idaho and Oregon. It would not be legal in the Montana heritage season because it specifically says sidewalks. So you know, if you were looking like you could buy like that Wolf from cva, you could buy it, you could buy the, you know, invest in like Northwest breach plug and then you could hunt with that in most of the West. And that's what I would say that same thing where I said like, you know, in Utah you could need up to three muzzle loaders. You could essentially have a muzzle loader that you set up with a 1x scope like on a pick rail, you know, and they. There's a couple different companies that are making peep sites that go on the back of a pick rail. So you could have like your scope on there. You could have your, you know, you could take your scope off for like a ham season. You could take your scope off, use the Same ignition, have your peep site on that same rail. And then if you wanted to hunt one of these new primitive units, you would have to change your breech plug to a Northwest open ignition style breach plug. That was kind of my, that's my latest understanding of Utah because when they wrote the final regulation, it was kind of confusing as to whether it had to be totally open or whether it was like a Northwest legal situation. I believe they, they, they acknowledged that, that they were going for like the Northwest legal, but the language was a little off. And so I think that's being fixed. But essentially, like, you could have the same muzzleloader. It would work across those three types of hunts. And then, I mean, the Northwest legal one would then let you go hunt Idaho or Oregon as well. So I think traditions, you know, I'm not as familiar with traditions, but they also make similar deal where you could have, you know, multiple breach plugs. Night does too. Knights are really expensive these days. I have a knight sort of the same thing. I have a breach plug that allows me to hunt in Idaho. I have a breach plug that allows me to shoot 209 primers in places where it's closed, you know, where you can use closed ignition. So, you know, you could essentially get by with everything but the, the Montana season with one muzzle loader and a couple breech plugs.

Hey, everybody. I hope you're enjoying the show. I wanted to take a minute to make sure that you knew about the Hunt west services being offered in 2024. If you have a hunt that's coming up that you would like, help e scouting on planning your hunt logistics or otherwise, looking at your gear list and making sure you're dialed for your upcoming adventure. Be sure to reach out to jadenuntwest.net yep, that's me. We can get together and figure out a great time to do a session, create a full hunt plan, itinerary, or otherwise craft something that's going to fit your needs so that you can go out in 2025 and have the best hunt yet. I really enjoy being part of this process with people and watching them learn and grow. So feel free to reach out at any time. I'm happy to help. All right, let's get back to the show.

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Okay.

Too, like, you know, that again, goes back to like propellant too. So, you know, are you going to try to maximize and shoot blackhorn, you know, then, then you're going to need to like, work up multiple loads or are you, you Know, you could go to the lowest common denominator and you could shoot a musket cap or a percussion cap and, and pyro decks or, or triple seven out of an inline, you know, from the get go too. So I mean there, there's sort of multiple ways you could spin it. You know, I think a lot of guys probably, if you're doing a lot of applying or you're trying to do this, probably end up setting up a couple. Because the one thing too, setting up a muzzleloader is a little bit more like, it's not like going to buy a box of, you know, ammo at the store and shooting it and making sure it groups good and adjusting your scope a little bit. Like, you know, it, it can, it can be a little bit more nuanced to get it really dialed in. So, you know, I personally have a couple, three different muzzle loaders at my disposal between me and the family. Like that depending on the state that I'm targeting or whatever that like I would grab that one because it's pretty much sided in. I don't want to take a scope off of it. Want to confirm, you know, I've got data with it versus if I went to somewhere else, I would just grab a, you know, grab the one that, that has open sites on it. So yeah, I mean it depends on how, how much you want to get into it. But I'm really not afraid to take a scope off a modern rifle, you know, that I've got a good load for and tinker, you know, throw a different scope on it or whatever and you know, put it back on and it's, you know, re 0 and like good to go with a muzzle loader. It's like it, it feels like it's a little bit more of a tedious process. So you're like, gosh, I don't want to, I don't want to do this. You know, I don't do a lot of changing like bullets and stuff like that. Like you pick a bullet and if it does well, I stick with it.

Okay, dude, that makes a lot of sense. I know we, this is probably super basic, but why, why is the side lock not good versus an inline? Is it the exposure to the elements? Is it just like the, the mechanism itself is more reliable on the inline? Like what's the advantage of the inline?

Yeah, I would say like the mechanism is more reliable because it's a straight line. You know, your flame coming from your primer goes through the breech plug. You know, if you're using a 209, it goes through the breach plug. If it's a nipple, you know, it's like the, the cap fits over that and it's like a straight line into your powder where the side lock is, you know, making a turn there. The biggest thing too, I mean muzzleloaders, like the, the number one thing that's like an earth shattering difference to a modern firearm is like it's not debatable as to whether you're going to clean the thing. Like there's a lot of dudes that are not cleaning their rifles. You know, like don't run a patch down the barrel until it starts shooting. Terrible. Maybe they wipe down the outside. That is not an option with the muzzleloader. Like pyro decks is super corrosive. Triple seven is plenty corrosive. Blackhorn's a lot better than all of them, but it's very corrosive. So I mean, and, and it, the build up is crazy to the point where like, if you're shooting like triple seven or pyro decks, I mean you might shoot five or six or seven rounds at the range and you can't get a bullet down your barrel without running a couple patches to get some of that fouling out. So the efficiency of the powder is just totally different. So you know, I would say like with a side lock you got to have your nipple completely clean. You got to have that flash hole really clean. You know, there's just sort of more, the, the more the distance is greater and it's harder to get that perfectly clean. Where with an inline, you know, you have a breech plug that you can screw out. And so it, you know, you can take it out, you can soak that, you know, you can really clean it out. So you know, I think the design's a little bit more reliable and then the ease of cleaning is more reliable. You know, it's less exposed. I mean like even with a Northwest legal muzzleloader, you know, the old Northwest legal breach plugs, most of them literally were just like a U notch cut in the breach plug. That would have totally sealed, but there's a tiny little U notch cut. So it's like, yeah, you can see the primer down there. Like it's quote unquote exposed to the elements. But that's a lot different than sitting out on the outside of the gun, you know, under the hammer, you know, exposed to the elements.

You guys put like, can, can you put like a sock or, or put some sort of thing around the thing to prevent it from getting exposed to the elements until you're ready to fire.

Absolutely. Everybody I know always did. I think I've heard that there was, there was question about whether you could tape it like you do, you know, like that would no longer be exposed to the elements. I mean, like, wow. It sort of comes to this interesting, like what's the spirit of the law? Because I mean you can go to a muzzleloader rendezvous type thing and they have like these leather covers that go over the entire lock and trigger system, you know, that they would use in port. So I mean it's like spirit of the law, letter to the law. I mean if you're like siliconing that you notch closed on your rifle, I think that's like probably violation. But I mean I would imagine that anything that, that doesn't seal it would, would, would make it open. But you know, I don't know how that would be interpreted in other states. Like I said, you know, if you look at a northwest legal, it used to be, you know, it used to be totally exposed and then they got smaller and smaller and smaller on how much exposed until eventually now, you know, it's just like this little notch where you can look down in there and see the primer. So it is exposed to the elements. But it's a lot different than like it being out on the outside.

Okay, dude, that makes a lot of sense. So you were talking about you were like getting your dope for these things and I was like, God, I never even thought about like. Yeah, I just, I just the exposure I've had to muzzleloaders is like this is a 50 to 100 yard rifle, right? Like not thinking about the bullet drop and such. So where do you normally start like sighting these things in? Is it like, like 50 or 100 yards? And then you figure you're dope from that and then also like what kind of drop are you getting at like 2 and 300 yards. Is it like a foot? Like is it 2ft? Like what's that look like?

It's a lot. Is it depending on how. Yeah, depending on how you, you sight in. I mean the, the biggest thing is going to come down to like how like what technology you're using. So if you're using that Montana heritage muzzle loader, I'm sure that because you're also. So the other thing with Montana you have to realize like that heritage muzzle loader, you're restricted to using round balls or conicals. So you're using like real primitive bullets as well as a primitive muzzleloader I mean, literally a patched round ball. So like we're talking Civil war style.

Yeah. Revolutionary war or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Like the, the conical is a little bit, like a little bit more aerodynamic and doesn't require a patch because it's got loot. Like it's got grooves. And then you like lube those grooves and then run it down your barrel so that it seals. You know, essentially the patch or the lube is creating this seal so that, you know, your powder ignites, it pushes the bullet rather than blows past it. But you know, when you're talking like a conical, that's what Idaho used to have the pure lead requirement for their bullets. And it had to be full bore size, so it couldn't be a sabbat. They did allow the lead power belts, which was sort of like the easy button for that pure lead. But like, up until they changed it last year when, when they started allowing jacketed bullets, I mean, you had to either shoot that power belt or essentially a conical. So even in Idaho, you know, very recently, a conical bullet. And I mean, those things are monsters. You're talking like a 380 to 400, 450, you know, like, they're big chunks of lead. And so I would suggest with that, you know, I, I developed a load, I had a elk tag in Idaho that you could come back and hunt with a muzzleloader if you weren't successful. And so I sort of over the summer put one together and I shot some. I think there are no excuses out of Utah as like a conical bullet company. And I mean, those things were just monsters. And the trajectory on them was like a rock. So like, I wasn't getting a lot of dope. It was like, yeah, basically, you know, I'm gonna sight in high enough that I'm pretty pretty on it. A hundred, you know, or a little bit high at 100. So I'm good to like 125, 150. But again, you know, you got to use a musket or, you know, I was using a number 11 cap and triple set. Like, I, I didn't, you know, there was no need to build like the, the equipment. And my abilities didn't really necessitate going further where. Conversely, you know, on weapons where it's no holds bar and you can shoot like a maximum charge of black horn and light it up with a, with a large rifle primer. I mean, I, when I did my workup last year, I, I put a 4x12 scope on there and tried, you know, because it's just like reloading where you know, you're trying different powder charges. You know, you're looking at like, like, you know, here's max, like here's safe max. But then, you know, dropping a couple grains here and there and seeing if you're getting some difference. And because I'm not good enough to see really, really well with a 1x or a peep, you know, I put a variable power scope on there to ensure that I was sighting correctly to make, you know, to remove that variable. So I did that, you know, and you're like, wow, this muzzleloader is super accurate. You know, then you put a 1x back on and you're like, man, my group just doubled or tripled because you just can't, you know, you just don't have that level of precision. And so, you know, like the need to get dope. The need to like, I mean all the modern, you know, I was shooting a.45 caliber. I think it's like a 285 grain ELR, so power belt ELR bullet. I mean they, you know, list the ballistic coefficient on that thing. So you can put it in a calc, you know, run it through a chronograph, see how fast you're shooting it, put it in, put it in a ballistic calculator and then it'll give you your MOA dial up. And you know, when Utah was allowing variable power scopes a couple years ago, I had a buddy who you know, did that and I mean he was, he'd never muzzleloader hunted before, but his wife drew a muzzleloader tag. They bought a really good muscle loader and you know, he was out at 450 like you know, within a couple days of shooting a muzzleloader. You know, just ring and steel at 450 with you know, 3 by 15 scope on there. You know the. Again, the weapon's very capable of it. It was, it's the sighting system. So you know, ran it through a chronograph, put the BC in, started doing the dope and you know, all of a sudden you're good to a long, long ways. I would only do that for like the, the more, you know, if you're really using like a peep and you're not talking about a dialable peep, man, I think 150 yards is like pretty far. And at that point, you know, you can, you can be pretty proficient with like dead on at 100 or a couple inches high at 100 and holding a little bit high out to 150, you know. So I mean it just kind of depends on like what your goal is, what the equipment you're, you're available. But I mean for, for a high powered one, I'm working it up just like I would a rifle, you know, getting your velocities. Muzzle loaders are surprisingly consistent with like standard deviation and extreme spread on your velocity. If you're doing a good job of like, you know, weighing consistent charges or measuring consistent charges, muzzle loaders seem to be very, very consistent. So like your velocity doesn't change much. Get that BC of your bullet and off you go.

Okay. So yeah, that's kind of why I was asking about the more primitive ones because it does seem like once you step up into like the, once you step up into the really technically advanced muzzleloaders, like the, the system reminds me a lot of sighting in a high powered rifle.

Right?

You just kind of like work through the process.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I think you're very correct. I mean I would, I would almost treat them as like two totally separate categories with some, you know, some crossover in the middle depending on, you know, your weapon. But I mean if you look at like an arrowhead, you know, muzzle loader, custom built muzzle loader with a, you know, 45 cal barrel on there with a maximum charge, I mean that those are like 300 win mag type numbers of, you know, the bullet they're pushing and the velocities they're pushing. So you know, that's, that's a far cry from the primitive muzzleloader that's shooting, you know, round ball or a conical that has the BC of a rock at, you know, a relatively slow speed, you know, there. So you know, those two sort, you know, if those are your two, you know, far ends, there's a lot of stuff in the middle. But yeah, I mean I would, I would trend towards the upper end is very much like dealing with a rifle and the lower end is more like a bow where you know, you're doing a lot of like shoot it at 60 and make sure your pins on and shoot it at 80 and make sure, you know, when you're building a site tape or something. I think it's real similar with a primitive muzzle loader.

Okay, no, that makes total sense. So how in the world do you like get started with this? Do you just like look up like I'm thinking about me as like I get the idea you're put powder in, put the ball in, throw a percussion cap on and then like, like let it rip Tater chip. But what kind? Like, how do you think about starting with a, a powder charge and then like working through that whole project?

I, I would think, like, if you're talking like the primitive side of things, I would grab a primitive muzzle loader. I'd Google what the safe charge is on, you know, said muzzle loader. And then, you know, they'll give you a range. It's just like a real loading manual, you know, like I'd start low and, and work up. But yeah, I mean, like get, you know, like, hopefully there's an owner's manual you can Google, see what they, you know, I would imagine most of them are recommending like a lot of those primitive ones, I believe, say black powder, which you can buy pure, you know, true black powder, Swiss black powder, you know, from, from online. Just like you can't, I mean, the same thing. It's going to ship Hazmat. But you, you can buy actual black powder or Pyridex, you get yourself some caps, you know, and then pick a bullet. You know, like I said, I would trend towards the conical because I don't want to do patched ball.

No.

Yeah. It doesn't sound fun to me. No. And then, you know, like the, the thing about a muzzleloader is like, you're gonna want like cleaning supplies. Like you're going to want to solve it, you're going to want patches. Because again, you got to be cleaning that way more like, like something that you're shooting pyro decks out of. You can't like not clean it at the end of the day. Like you leave it for, you know, overnight, it's going to start corroding. Like it's going to be a problem. And then, you know, I would get a range rod. So, you know, ramrod comes on the rifle generally, but you're gonna want like a heavier duty ramrod for cleaning. And at the range, you know, a lot of ramrods are not really designed for like heavy duty use. So if you're at the range, I would use quote unquote, range rod and then, yeah, I mean, like, you know, on a, on a side lock, I think you want like a patch puller so that if you lose a patch down the barrel when you're swabbing it, you, it's just, you know, a wire brush that you could pull it out with. Technically, I think you could lose a bullet down there if your charge doesn't go off. So I think you're, there's a procedure to deal with that. I mean, that's why an inline is like a much easier thing is you like straight screw the breech plug out and dump your powder out and knock your ball, you know, knock your bullet out and, and go on, go on with your business or clean it that way or whatever. But yeah, I mean like I'm always hesitant to grab kits because usually they have like a bunch of stuff you don't end up needing. But I know like primitive muzzleloader kit that comes with a muzzle loader or you could order probably has like most of the stuff you need. And then you know you're going to need like a capper to, to cat. I mean you don't have to, but it makes it a lot easier to cap your, you know, use your, you know, to put your caps in and then cap it. From a hunting perspective you're gonna probably want like a speed, a couple speed loaders so you can have some pre measured charges, you know, and like a bullet handy. That's the one thing like you're gonna want to like once you like dial in at the range and everything you're gonna want to like think about your reloading process. This is not rifle hunting where you just like grab another shell and drop it in the deal and run your bolt. Like this is, you know and you're always going to need to reload. Whether you, you shot it and it fell down and you need to walk up to it with a loaded like you're going to need to reload. So think about that. Like they make some pretty good speed loaders. Now that that help in the wind. Like the Cedar Mountain makes a speed loader. It's made for guys with muzzle brakes. So it's, it's got like a tube that goes past the muzzle brake. But it's great for the wind because when you're trying to like pour powder in to your barrel, you're shaking because you got all excited and, and it's windy. Like you watch half your charge blow away and you're like well now I'm gonna be hitting a little low. Like you know, like think about, just think about those things. It's like easy at the range. Like develop your process, you know, figure it out. You wanna. The one thing like from a safety perspective with a muzzleloader is you can blow a muzzle loader up. It's pretty hard to blow a modern firearm up, but you can blow a muzzle loader up really easy. All you got to do is double charge it. So you load your muzzle loader, you set it aside, you Forget you loaded it or you didn't shoot it the last time, and you drop more powder back on there and you drop another bullet in there, you just made a bomb. So I've seen barrels, I personally haven't done it, but I have seen the remnants of barrels that had that happen to. It's lucky people walked away from them them. So mark your ramrod. Like when you figure out that you want to shoot 80 grains of this powder and this bullet and it goes down the barrel, you shove it all the way down the barrel and seat your bullet to that depth, you're going to want to cut like a notch or use a pen to make a notch on your ramrod so that you know exactly. So the next time when you're like, holy crap, is this loaded? And you stick it down the barrel and that notch goes right to the bottom and you can't see it, you're like, no, it's not loaded, or it goes right to the notch. You're like, it is loaded or you stick it down the barrel. You're like, gosh, did I load that twice? You stick it down the barrel and it's sticking up three inches off your notch. You're like, oh, yeah, I got a problem now. So you want to have that measurement, you know, because you like again, going back to the primitive thing versus the new ones. If you're shooting the newer bullets like I'm shooting like a Hornady ELDX bore driver out of, out of a 50 cal, or those power belts out of a.45 cal, they go down the barrel so super easy. But like, some of the old ones don't go down the barrel as easy. And so you want to make sure. Or if you're shooting like a sabbat, you know, you got to put a lot of pressure on that sometimes to seat them well. So you're going to want to make sure that you're like down on the powder charge every time. So like, marking your ramrod once you've got your, your stuff figured out is just a good safety measure to make sure you don't. Don't end up with two charges down the barrel or no charge or, or, you know, two bullets down the barrel instead of of one or whatever. But yeah, I mean, if your mark's not matching up, I would definitely not pull the trigger.

Dude, that's such good information. It's like one of those things where, yeah, it's really easy. Like when you add the complexity of the old timey heritage muzzleloaders, then you realize, like, Oh, I see now why, like, each step more technologically advanced is way better. Because, like, you're saying with the bullets, you're like, if it just goes right down, it's way easier. You're not guessing if you're seated against the charge. Right, and those kinds of things.

Yeah, I mean, I. I think. I think there's just. There's this huge gradient. I mean, it's probably a lot like traditional archery and modern compound bow. You know, there's. There's things that. That you're just not dealing with. When you skip those steps and jump to some of the modern stuff, it's just. It's just different. You're not, you know, you're not. You're not dealing with it. So. Yeah, I mean, like, like, every step has its advantages, its disadvantages. I mean, you go back to the primitive stuff. Like, again, you know, the reason you're willing to do that is because of opportunity in Montana. You know, like, unless you're romantic about the idea about muzzleloader, and there's nothing wrong with that. And if you're not, you're not picking up a primitive muzzle loader when you have the other options on the. The table. But, you know, these seasons, I mean, it seems like that's the direction we're trending with some restrictions and technologies. Like, it's harder, so there's a barrier to entry. So, you know, whether that's, like, it gets you a season to hunt like it does in Montana, or, you know, there's fewer dudes out there, whatever it is. But that barrier to entry, you know, you're gonna see it. It was interesting being in Utah the year after they went from variable. You know, Utah went from open sites to 1x sites back in, like, 2018 to variable power scopes and then back to 1x last year. And it was funny because it was like 50. 50. On the guys we talked to that were down there, 50 of them were like, man, I was out of control. It's really good. They did some restrictions. Like, this one X is, like, nice. I appreciate it. But it was out of control. And the other 50 of guys are like, dude, I don't know how to kill a deer anymore. We used to bomb them from this hillside over there to that hillside. Like, now we're gonna have to hike across and go get them. And so, you know, it's. It's what people get used to. But, yeah, I mean, you're. You're looking for an opportunity, and so the primitive ones are going to offer some opportunity. In places where, where you know you're not going to have it otherwise. So you, you put up with, with that barrier of entry and, and sort of, you know, a primitive weapon.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, so you just like, barely touched on it. But obviously, like, when you're picking up one of these muzzleloaders, I mean, depending now when you're talking Wyoming muzzleloader, like, or maybe Arizona, and you can drop a bomb from distance, then obviously that's much more of like whatever your rifle style is. But when you start shortening up your distance, whether you have no scope or whatever the case is, does how you hunt change? Like for you, for instance? Like, do you do things differently?

I mean, I do a lot of archery hunting too. So you like muzzleloader hunting? The one thing I would say like, drew me to muzzle loader hunting is you get really tired of having the deer at 80 and you can't get any closer to it. And you know, you're like ran out of brush to, to crawl and stalk and, you know, you screw it up and the wind switches and he takes off. Well, at 80 with a muzzleloader, you're like, I just shoot him.

This is perfect.

This is a great shot. So, you know, I treat a lot like bow hunting. You know, it's like you're gonna have to get close. So. Yeah, I mean, if you're the rifle guy that just like sits up on a hill and bombs them from a long ways away and doesn't pay attention to the wind and whatever, like, muzzleloader hunting is going to be a steep learning curve. If you're coming from the archery side, it's like do everything you do with a bow. But the cool part is you can stop, you know, 2/3 of the way through the stock and wait for a good shot opportunity rather than crawl in there too close or sneak in there too close and have everything blow up on you. So, you know, especially with like a primitive weapon, I mean, that Montana season, like, you're just like one level above a bow hunt, you know? Yeah.

It seems like the only thing that you might gain out of that is like not getting caught while drawing. I mean, 100 seems to be about really what it is.

Yeah, 100. That, that is the difference is like, you're. You're locked and ready to go. You know, with a primitive weapon, you just got to the hammer instead of draw the bow. So big difference there for sure. But I mean, as far as, like, the distances you're talking, it's the same Deal. You know, it's a, it's a very similar process.

Oh, that makes sense. D so what has been like, what has been your favorite muzzleloader hunt so far? You kind of talked about you had a rough start and I've heard a lot of people say that like you can have some bad experiences like, similar to archery hunting with muzzleloaders. But like, what was the hunt that you were like, yeah, this is freaking awesome, man.

I don't know. Like I, I don't have a specific hunt because I have not killed many deer with a muzzleloader. I've packed a lot of deer out for friends with a muzzle loader, but I haven't killed many. I think it just like gets you in the field. Like for me here in Washington, it's got me in the field. I've chased around some really good deer. I haven't killed them, but you know, during a time in the field or time when I couldn't be in the field, you know, we have like end of September, early October, sort of muzzleloader season around here. That's been fun. It's good. You know, like I said, it's changing a lot as far as pressure just because, you know, folks are taking advantage of the technology that multi season is more popular, so there's more pressure on it. But it used to be the muzzle litter season was pretty awesome because you just never saw anybody, you know, you could go hunt the deer were, were unpressured. I think muzzle loading is sort of like the smallest group of people, at least up here in Washington and probably a lot of other places. You know, there's a lot of folks that sort of like identify as a bow hunter and, and really like champion that and like they don't do other things. And then, you know, the. In general, obviously every state sells by far the most rifle tags compared to other weapon types. So muzzleloader sort of like in the middle, you know, where, where there's not a lot of folks that are like, yeah, I'm a muzzleloader hunter and that's what they like do. There's some, you know, I grew up around guys that, you know, like that's what they did. They muzzle loaded, hunted elk and you know, in Washington you got to pick your weapon again. So like that's what they did. They didn't bow hunt, they didn't rifle hunt, they muzzle load a hunt. But you know, it's changing. I always just looked at it as like I wanted, you know, if they, if they have a, a handgun season, then I'm gonna figure out how to have a handgun that, that's good for big game. You know, like I, I will figure out the weapon types to allow me the most opportunity to either draw a tag or spend more time in the field. So I had a lot of fun. Like Utah was a. That was the first out of state muzzleloader tag I've hunted was last year in Utah. That was a lot of fun. We saw some good deer. I killed the deer. It was no giant, but it was a good time. I wouldn't recommend the muzzle their season in Utah as much as I would other places. It was at least last year it was incredibly hot and I don't, you know, it's interesting and at least where we were there was not a huge. And granted I've never been to Utah, it was the first time hunting Utah. So I'm not making an apples to apples comparison, but from a pressure standpoint, one of the, you know, attractive things to a primitive weapon is like less pressure. There was plenty of pressure. So you know, there's this like sort of balancing act that you're doing like looking at pressure or opportunity versus weapon effectiveness. And if I'll take a way less effective weapon, you know, if there's less pressure and more opportunity, you know, give me a bow every time or muzzleloader or whatever. But if it's going to be, you know, just as much pressure or is plenty of pressure, it's like well, maybe maybe just wait for a rifle tag. So you know, I would look at the muzzleloader. Doesn't solve everything. You know, there's, there's plenty of hunts that are plenty crowded and, and busy, but it's definitely open some opportunities.

Yeah, that makes sense. So I think you see a lot of states do that like September, October, like late September, early October time frame. And then other states like are doing more November, December type hunts with muzzleloaders. To me, like with the limited amount of information that largely I've learned in the last hour, it seems like the late season hunts might be really tough to get your gun to go off or like to manage the weapon. Like my Seymour animals versus the early hot season. Like you just had it in Utah. What you know, if you get to choose, you're like, okay, I get nice weather but less animal movement. Or we get crappy weather, maybe more animal movement but tougher to keep the firearm going. Like which one are you choosing then? What do you think about the pros and cons on that?

Man, I'd have a hard time not picking the one where I saw more critters and it was late, but I had to keep, you know, I mean, because I, I think you can do things to, to be, you know, to make your muzzleloader go off more frequently, even in tough conditions. Like, it's not, it's not impossible guys are doing it. It's just, you know, you got to worry about like, you know, condensation. Did you bring, you know, do you bring it into the tent? Do you bring it into the vehicle? You know, all these different things. Like there's just more to, more to. More to go wrong. Especially when, you know, if you look at like Idaho has some late season draw hunts. I mean, you're going to be in deep snow with a weapon that, you know, you don't want to get wet. That's, that's hard, you know, so you're, you're, you know, there, you're getting like, less pressure, but you're not as effective. And so, yeah, I mean, it's all one big trade off. I don't think that there's like, like this perfect answer to it. Like, you know, like the Montana season is a great example. I mean, it's a big trade off. You got a really, you know, technical weapon that you gotta, you know, you got to be on top of your game with. And then it's really cold. It's a, you know, tough time of the year. Granite stuff could be down on the winter range and maybe it gets pushed down and maybe it's better. But I mean, you know, you're, you're trading, you know, that same muzzleloader might not be as hard to make it go off in September, you know, so you're trading some, you know, some of that for, for. And yeah, it's just a balancing act. I mean, some states, it doesn't seem, you know, like it's that big of a deal. Other state, you know, if you look at like Arizona, for instance, you know, it's like, it's really just kind of like a draw odds thing. Like they do have some late muzzle loader, but essentially, like if you look at elk, like, you know, some units are getting an early muzzleloader, some are getting an early rifle. Tags, you know, kind of favor the muzzleloader as far as number of tags, but then they rotate it through the unit. So, you know, really you're just looking at draw odds. And in Arizona, you can use a variable power scope. You essentially have a one, you know, if you, if you build the muzzle loader appropriate for it I mean, you got a single shot rifle that's very capable to most, most sane ranges. So you know, it's not that different. You know, you're, you're picking your poison there. But you know, if, yeah, if you look at, you know, Utah now with a, a primitive, you know, muzzleloader season, like that's going to be a different ball game than even hunting, you know, across the road in a unit that's not primitive.

No, that makes total sense. Okay, so an update on this, this black powder rifle I've been bidding on. The original time that it was set for the bidding to go out was like 30 minutes ago or 20 minutes ago now. And I'm in a bidding war so I don't know if I'm gonna get this thing. And then the way the gun broker works is every time someone bids, it adds 15 minutes onto the.

Yeah.

So I'm like over here in a bidding war with this guy and it keeps adding time to the, to the deal. So we'll see if this ends up getting bought or not. These invest arms, they were like, you know, I'm looking at a, you know, one on a retail store for 629 and it's still at $301. So yeah, maybe we'll get this thing for a steal. But let's see. So, okay, a big maybe possible final question that I was thinking of, Chad. Do you have any muzzleloader plans for 20, 25?

Not that I've drawn yet, but I've definitely applied for muzzleloader hunts in states that are still out right now.

Okay. Yeah, so it's kind of a to be determined.

Yeah, I mean I did not draw a hunt in. I did not draw the multi season tag in Washington. So I won't be muzzle loader hunting unless I can pick one up. They do a resale of, of the ones that weren't picked up, so that is a possibility. But yeah, I've applied in one state already and I will apply in another state for a muzzleloader tag I draw. I drew a really good archery elk tag that is overlapping with a lot of muzzleloader seasons that is causing me not to apply for some that I normally would. So probably not looking good for muzzleloader season for me this year. But that's okay. I will take the trade.

That's right. I'm like, I don't feel bad for you. Yeah.

So bad for me at all.

Oh, that's great, man. Well, good deal. This has been so educational, like for me, I don't care if anybody else learned a dang thing but I have had such a blast. Just like nerd. Now I literally have a pull full page of freaking notes that I've gotten taken so that I can get dialed in here. So, dude, thank you. This has been super helpful.

Yeah, no problem. Always, always happy to talk muzzleloaders. I've dove down the rabbit hole. So happy to share the the stuff that has been passed on to me or that I have figured out the hard way.

Yeah, for sure. Well, we'll have to stay in touch and I'll let you know if I end up scoring one of these things. And if you see any good deals on Gun Broker, send them to me and I'll try to keep them on the down low so nobody else steals them.

Sounds good. Will do.

Cool. Well, thanks, man. Yeah, we'll stay in touch. And good luck this season. I'm really excited for you.

Yeah, thanks, James. You too.

All right, you bet. We'll talk to you later. Thank you for listening to the Hunt west podcast. If you like what you heard today, the best compliment you can give is to share the show with a friend.

We will see you on the next episode and we hope one day to see you Hunt West.