Arizona Coues & Wyoming Adventures with Jason Scott

Foreign.

To the Hunt west podcast, here's your host, Jaden Bales. What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hunt west podcast. Today I have on a special guest from a part of the world I don't spend any time in, and that's Jason Scott. Jason, you're down in Arizona, right?

That's right.

Cool, man. What's your, like, background? Like 30, 000 foot view. Obviously, we just kind of knew each other from the Internet. And then I was like, you know, I want to pick some guy's brain. He knows spends a lot of time in the woods.

Yeah, I. I'm getting old now because I've been hunting for a while, so I spent most of my time hunting just Arizona for years and years and years because I didn't, you know, didn't. I didn't even think about hunting out of state or anything like that until about the last decade. So just spent a lot of time hunting coos, deer, obviously, that's my thing. Glassing and hunting the southwest. And then started branching out more recently. So married, two kids in high school and living the life, living the dream.

Oh, that's awesome, man. Yeah. And for those who are listening, Jason's got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 coups sitting behind him in his office. So I was like, I was like. I asked him if he robbed a taxidermy store because that is awesome. That. That wall looks sweet. Is that like your.

I knew you were going to ask me Kuzdeer questions, so I purposely turned just so you could see those.

Oh, okay, Cool.

That's the C deer wall.

So I love it. So I assume, you know, as far as your strategy with Coups, I mean, you're. You're just trying to hunt them as often as possible. Is this very many of these archery or are you doing a lot of rifle hunting?

So I used to do both. I'm hoping to get back into it, but unfortunately, when you start getting older, your body just starts falling apart for no reason. And about five years ago, I woke up one day and my right shoulder, I had a frozen shoulder and I hadn't been able to pull a bow back until I think I shot my boat for the first time just a couple months ago. So I had to move my sight, had to move everything because it just doesn't work quite the same as it used to. I still don't have full use of it, but yeah, I used to archery hunt a lot more and one of those kids deer. I actually was lucky enough to get with a bow. But I've, I've had thousand attempts to get that one, so lots of failures.

In there, that's what I hear. I mean, the coos hunting with a bow is the new level of tough, so. That's sweet, man. Especially when you get a good, good mature buck, you know, like, that's a different level, isn't it?

Oh yeah, it's. And, and the funny thing is, if you knew the amount of time and effort and everything that I put into like archery hunting coups, it was. I would always go down in January for at least a week every year for 20 something years. Never got one. I went out on a day trip, literally planning on like, oh, if I see something in the morning, I'll go after it. If I don't, I'll come home. Like just. Which I've done hundreds of times. So I was thinking, oh yeah, I'll just go out there. If I see something, I'll throw a stock. I'll probably be home by three. No, I actually glassed one up, hiked up to the top of the mountain, missed him once and ended up getting a second shot on him and it worked. And you know, it's just one of those things. That's why you just got to go out and try. You never know.

Yeah. Oh, I get it. We were just talking about that, my friend Kenneth and I, because we were. Bear season has started with archery equipment here and we keep going like, well, I went out for a day or for an evening, he went out for an evening and we kept going like we're not really jones in the kill one yet because like, we don't want our season to be over. But at the same time, those are the days when you're just like, ah, we'll just see what happens. Those seem to be the days that everything comes together, don't you think?

Oh, yeah, definitely. It's, it's. This will tie into something I'm going to talk about later with you, but it's like, you never know. You just never know. The only, the only way to be successful is to be out there.

So. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's awesome, man. So as far as the CO's world is concerned, is the, is the main tactic that you're doing just kind of getting high and glassing? Are you going to sit water or you going to try to sit in that ambush point? Like I've heard guys say, like some are more effective than others, but obviously glassing is like the, the primary. What's your thoughts on all that glassing.

Is definitely like, I, I just love the glass. I. I can't tell you how many times I. I've sat in the same spot from sun up to sundown. Like, if I'm looking for maybe a particular buck or just an area where I think there's going to be something special. So, yeah, being able to just sit in glass, it's actually one of my weaknesses too, I think. I don't know when to move, how often to move. That's all anybody's guess. Nobody can tell you. Every situation is different. So as far as, like, do you get high and glass low or do you get low and glass high? It totally depends on the area you're in. I do both. There's areas where I'm in where access is at the base of the mountain, and I can just the way that that mountain lays out, I can glass upwards and see most, you know, three quarters of the mountain from where I'm at at the bottom. There's other areas where I'm like, I've got to get to the top to look down into here. So it really depends on where you're at.

Oh, that. That makes sense. Look everywhere. I've heard a lot of people tell me it's like you'll be staring at a hillside and you'll be like, there's nothing here. And then all of a sudden one will stand up. I mean, is that basically what you're seeing too?

Oh, 100. 100. So it's. Yeah. This one thing I always tell people, like, everybody I've ever hunted with, I have like these three rules. And so when you're sitting there glassing with, with a guy all day long, you have a lot of time to think and just talk about random whatever.

So.

But I've always told guys, like, number one, like, you listen to these podcasts, you listen to guys talk, you're like, oh, glass the north face, glass the shade, or that's where they're at. So then you got everybody looking at, you know, e. Scouting and finding areas to look for that. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but I. My number one rule is there are no rules. Like, when you hear guys say, like, this is it. This is what you have to do. Like, okay, well, now I can think of at least a dozen times where the opposite of that happened to me. So I just. The way my brain is wired, I'm always like, if somebody says you can't do something, I'm like, I want to go do that. Yeah, So I always say there are no rules. And they are where you find them, and they are where you last saw.

Okay.

And that all came from, like, sitting in glasses. So to me, that's the main three things. It's like, look everywhere. Yes, they're probably going to be. Spend more time, especially down here in the. In the southwest, where it's a little hotter. Yeah, they're going to spend more time in the shade. That just makes sense. But, yeah. And then once you do find something, I see so many guys, like, see something, maybe they'll go throw a stock on it. I didn't see it. Oh, he's gone. He must be the next mountain holder. And they just quit. And I'm like, no. I mean, once you find something, it's. It's there. You got to stick with it. And I've. I've seen them lay their head on the ground to hide being seen and have people walk 15 yards from them, like, so.

Oh, that's crazy.

They're sneaky.

So, you know, mule deer, generally speaking, they're. They're pretty tight to their home range, especially in the summer patterns. But for co deer, do you think that they even have a tighter program? Like, they're going to be on the same hillside more or less? If you're trying to kill one big one, you're just waiting for them to pop out again or.

Yeah, this is another one of those rules I hear all the time, and it's, yes, again, everything you hear, there's truth to it, but there's also times when it's not true. So I do believe the general idea is, you know, a Kuzdeer will live his whole life within a mile. Yes and no. Probably more like a half mile. I do believe they are very territorial. They're, you know, they're cousins to the eastern whitetails. And everything that those guys teach us, like, those guys know so much more than we do about deer behavior. It's crazy. But I do believe those. Those are generally true. Why they move or when they move, I don't know. They definitely disappear. I mean, I'll. I'll have one that I'm like, you know, you see him in velvet all summer long, and then he rubs his velvet off, and I'll. I'll just pound that mountain for the whole fall and not be able to turn him up. And he's probably there. Don't know. But he could have moved one or two drainages over. So you just. You just never know. You just gotta throw everything you got at it and Hope you're lucky.

Oh man, that's. That's kind of how I do mule deer hunting. So glad to hear it's not too different.

They're very similar. So like, I've been just like you. You're trying to learn these coups deer. And I've been consuming. I'm obsessed now with trying to. To kill some good meal deer. I've only killed one mule deer my whole life, so I'm obsessed with learning everything about them. And all the podcasts and all the information I'm getting about mule deer, I'm like, well, it sounds like it's just like Coostee Hunt. Honestly, they're very similar.

Yeah, absolutely. It is like it. It just seems like that same game. And maybe there's an element if you're archery hunting that you could sit some more water just because water is more of a premium down there. But other than that, I mean, I say that and I helped a friend. It was like an adult onset hunter. She was archery hunting and I was like, sit this water. I've got trail camera. And she shot and missed a buck as it came into water. It was mule deer. So I guess, yeah, it could be the same depending on where you're at.

I've personally never had a lot of luck sitting water for Kuzdeer. Works great for elk because elk got a water every day. Kuzdeer seems like they water every four days maybe. Oh yeah. And I've watched them come into water and literally touch their lips to the water without even stop walking and just keep walking and just walk right past. I'm like, was that it? See you in four days? Like, I don't. I think they get 90 of their water from the moisture in the grass or something, so. Or whatever it is they're eating. So. Yeah.

And they eat on. They eat on like cactus and stuff too, don't they?

Yeah. And there is. There's actually a lot of moisture in the cactus plants. Like you look at them and everything just out here looks so dry and you can't imagine them eating it. But yeah, I watch them eat cat claw. I don't understand how that's possible. It gives me the chills. I don't know if you know what cat claw is, but you down here and hunt, you will. It's the worst plant on the face of the planet. It will shred you.

Yeah.

And they lay in it and eat it and I just don't understand. They eat cactus. Yeah, well, it's special.

It's funny. I actually did. I I've gotten into, like, I forage a little bit while I'm out hunting, because it's like, well, if I'm out here, I might as well eat stuff that I can sit next to. And one of those things that I've really picked up on the last few years is prickly pear, because there's a lot of prickly pear in some of the places I hunt. And I get it, though, like, whether it's the fruit that's budding off the top, that's probably the wrong time of year for you guys. But in October we'll get some prickly pear fruit and stuff. And. But you cut one of those things open, if you can use your pliers to get the spines off and stuff. And it's just full of water, right? It's like cutting into a melon, you know, it's just like. I get it. I could see how they could live off that. But obviously we.

That's actually. That's actually a huge tip. I'm glad you mentioned that, because that is one of the things. If I'm glassing an area that's. That's got maybe some barrel cactus that's got the little yellow fruit on top of it, a lot of them are picked off. If you're actually walking around out here, you can see the top of the barrel packs are cleaned off.

Oh, really?

By the time you get to hunting, see, earlier in the summer, you'll see a lot more. So if you're archery hunting in velvet season, there's definitely a lot of them. But the later you get into the hunting season, the more it's hard to find any of them that still have it on there. But when you do see that on there, as I'm glassing, if I know, okay, there's a. There's a barrel cactus over here at, you know, 10 o'.

Clock.

And there's another one down here to my right. I'll be doing the whole grid thing, but I'll just periodically. Okay, I'm gonna go look at that barrel cactus again because it is. That's. They. They love eating that stuff.

So that's cool. That's a good tip.

I actually had a buddy that he was. He was getting ready. He was trying to get a buck to turn. A buck was walking, and it was maybe 15 yards walking directly away from him. And he yelled at the deer like, hey, to turn this deer around with coos deer that. I think that's a horrible idea. I like hunting pure stealth mode. And never tell them that I'M in the same canyon as him.

Yeah.

Because, you know, if it doesn't work out, I want to hunt them tomorrow. You know, I don't. I don't want to booger anything else, so. And he showed me the video of this. So I. I saw the video, and he yells at it. I'm like, you know, he was, like, walking directly towards that barrel cactus. You could see the yellow fruit on top of it.

I go, oh, really?

Guarantee you that deer would have walked over there and ate on that if you had just sat there and listened.

Oh, man, that's a. Dude, that's. That's a good idea. A good tip, too. Just like it feels. I. I yelled at an elk. I was hunting with a friend two years ago, and I thought I could try to cow call with my mouse and mouth, and it sounded more like a, you know, like. And spooked that elk off. And I was just like, God. I think that. That seems to be the prevailing thought is like, man, just wait. Just. Just, you know, live to hunt another day. You know, if you. If you don't get a shot at that moment, or maybe they go over the rise and then you just scoot right up and, you know, you get another shot. You never know. Yeah.

I mean, if you're archery hunting and you, you know, like, archery elk hunt, and I'll yell at an elk. I don't care, like, if it's right. You know, if I'm already full drawn and everything, if it's that moment I stop, I won't even do the mew. I'll just be like, hey, you know? Yeah, actually, I actually missed a giant five by five once. If you're gonna do this, if you're gonna yell, hey, take an extra second after you yell to make sure you're still anchored and everything is correct, because. Okay, picture, picture yelling. Hey, you kind of, like, your body kind of moves a little. Like, I kind of yelled, hey, you know, And I dropped a little bit.

Yeah.

And pulled the trigger all at the same time. It was just too fast. I'm like, he stopped, turned, looked at me, and I shot right under his belly, like, 30 yards because, hey, punch. He's so cool. I was like, oh, man.

Oh, man, that's. That's a heartburn for a long time. I'm sure you're just like.

When you hunt a long time, you're gonna have more of those than success stories, so. I got so many bad stories. That's ridiculous.

Yeah, well, that's ex. That's exactly what keeps Us going though, right, Is like, is, is the ones that got away. I still have a, I'm kind of ha. Like I'm torn on this. I've still got a giant buck that I haven't gotten on the wall yet. And it's kind of like the chase is on, right. We'll see if he made it again this year, but it's the way it goes, dude. So are you, are you hunting through the middle of the day? Like, are you sitting behind your glass even in the hot Arizona sun, like trying to catch them re bedding in the middle of the day and stuff? Are you seeing that work?

It's. I, I, you can't do anything from camp so you wait all year to go hunting. Like if I were just gonna go hang out in camp, I would rather be home with my family. I'm taking away from my time with my family. I'm taking away from my work. You know, everything you sacrifice and every, all the hours of east scouting, everything you put into that, you get, you get like one week to go hunting or whatever. However many days you have to waste, one minute of it to me is just, it's, it's not in my DNA. So yeah, yeah. If it's, if there's an ounce of light in the sky, I'm out there hunting. So that doesn't mean I won't. I'll drop down and lay in the dirt and take a dirt nap if I need to. Like every once in a while we all get to that point. It's like, yeah, I'm just, I'm just gonna lay down right here next to my tripod and take a nap right in the sun. So yeah.

So do you do that? Yeah. Do you, are any of those coups behind you or do you have any co stories where you, where you found them in the middle of the day and then got one killed?

I have, I have the first one that, when you said that, the first one that I thought of, I found him in the morning, but I didn't kill him until 2 in the afternoon.

Oh really? So how, how'd that break out or what? Yeah. Do you have him right there? Like, is he, can we describe this buck? This guy right here. So that's for people who can't see. He's like a freaking heavy long main beamed big eye eye guards. Like obviously like a stomper coups. So I want to hear this. I want to hear this story.

That's. It still might be one of my, might be my favorite. I try not to Say favorite. I don't want the others to get jealous, but that's my first big one I ever killed, so. And I still, I'll. I'll flat admit, I mean, I was young when that happened and I still barely knew what I was doing. I knew enough to glass. I knew enough to, you know, still doing the same stuff I'm doing now, but I didn't know much. Scouted like crazy. Found a really cool area. Me and my buddy went in there and we had different days off at different jobs. So he, on his days off, he would go down to scout and I would scout. We would compare nuts. And he kept telling me, I've got this non typical buck I found and that's the buck I'm gonna focus on. Like, that's crazy because we sit on the same glassing knob. I'm like, I've never seen a non typical. And I kept seeing this other buck, you know, I'm like, I got this just cool, heavy three point that I want to focus on. He's like, okay. So we get down there for the hunt and the night before the opener, we're on our, our knob glassing and the non typical and the buck that I'd been scouting are walking together.

Oh my.

Never seen him together. He had never seen my buck and I'd never seen his. And here it is the night before opener and the two of them are just walking down the ridge together on the same Ritz. I'm like, this just shows you how hard they are to find. I'm like, after all summer is scouting these bucks, both of us looking. And so the next morning, before the, before it even got light, I was, I was in my glass. He, he didn't even have his backpack off his back yet. And I go, I, I got your buck. Don't even sit down. Because we weren't close enough to shoot from our novel. I said, don't even sit down. Just go find a spot. I go there on the same real deal where last night just go. So he went down there. He ends up killing the, the non typical. My buck, of course, takes off. Who knows where he ended up. That's not the buck on the wall, so.

Oh, really?

Okay. Yeah. Not the same buck. So it's actually a smaller buck. So it worked out for me. He went, he had to take that buck to town. It was so hot. It was October hunt. It was just so hot. He's like, hey, I'm gonna get this meat out of here. I'll be back tomorrow or whatever. So I glassed the rest of that day. I went out the next morning and I found the buck on the wall right here with three other bucks. And they were headed up the mountain. So I'm glad I'm from the base of the mountain all the way to the top. There's a probably 1500ft elevation gain. You know, pretty big size mountain. So I get on one side of a ridge and they're going up the other side of the ridge and I just parallel them all the way up there and they, they eventually bed down and they stay bedded for a few hours and then about 1:30 in the afternoon they get up to feed like they sometimes do. So they're standing right out there and this, I actually got it on video. It's like old 8 millimeter, horrible video. But yeah, they get up and I'm across the canyon. I set up. I actually. Let's see again, I didn't know what I was doing. I think, I think I missed him on the first shot, so.

Man.

But then, yeah, I think I missed. I think I shot right over his back and he stood there and then quick follow up shot and then I got him and dumped him in the second shot. So. Nerves. Yeah. But then I didn't know like I, I was just like it was the biggest deer I'd ever glassed up in my life at that point. He was, he was, he's a lot bigger than the one I was actually going after, so. But that taught me that it can happen. So you just got to go through it.

Well, dude, that's one of the things. I mean especially whether it's Kuzdeer where you, you know, there's good populations or it's, it's mule deer and you know, we'll probably dive into that at some point. But like where, where you've got low populations and you're just like, I don't know if there's in here. You never know because like there's just the chance that one has gotten away doing something different and then he pops out just the day that you're in there. You know, you just never know when they're going to pop out.

Yeah, that's right.

So that's awesome. So you're pretty much coos deer hunting in between when you draw elk tags, right? I mean obviously as a resident you can draw elk fairly regularly compared to a non resident. But I mean, how many, how many times have you had elk tags? Like pretty often or is it more like a one one in ten years type thing? What's the, what's the cadence for a residence?

So with, with elk again, you don't know which I wish I could go back in time. So I, I love the fact that, you know, we're sharing information now. I'm from the old days where you got everything in chat rooms or whatever, so. And I only knew about Arizona and I just always put in for the best hunts. Like, that's all I focused on. Like this is Arizona. I want to kill 400 inch bulls like everybody else on the, on the magazine covers is doing. So I, I put in for probably the easiest odds, worst hunt you could ever put in for archery. Late elk hunt. When I first started getting into hunting, like within my first few years because like I just want to go. And it whooped my butt. One, I didn't know what I was doing and two, that particular hunt, I wouldn't, I still, this day I, I'm like, unless you are really hardcore, I wouldn't recommend anybody do that hunt because it's not, it's not a good time, it's not fun. Opportunities are going to be very, very low on that.

Hey everybody. I hope you're enjoying the show. I wanted to take a minute to make sure that you knew about the Hunt west services being offered in 2025. If you have a hunt that's coming up that you would like, help e scouting on planning your hunt logistics or otherwise, looking at your gear list and making sure you're dialed for your upcoming adventure, be sure to reach out to Jaden Huntwest.net Yep, that's me. We can get together and figure out a great time to do a session, create a full hunt plan, itinerary or otherwise craft something that's going to fit your needs so that you can go out in 2025 and have the best hunt yet. I really enjoy being part of this process with people and watching them learn and grow. So feel free to reach out at any time. I'm happy to help. All right, let's get back to the show.

You're listening to the Hunt west podcast.

But no, you were just talking about how, you know, basically you were not sure how to apply and then you went on that just butt kicker of a late archery hunt. So what was your kind of strategy after you went and did that and we're like, holy crap, this is not my game.

Yeah. So then I went complete opposite direction and switched to only hunting the very best elk hunts. So waiting 10 to 15 years to draw a tag. So I've lived here my whole life here I'll turn around now. You can see an L. There we go. I've. I've lived here my whole life, and I've had or elk tags, including that really tough one, I think. Yeah, four. So opportunity here. There's more than I realized when I was doing it. That's why I said, I wish I could go back and have a few more tags. Only going for the best of the best. So I hunted that same best of the best type hunt twice, and I only killed one bull out of that, and he's not any bigger than the ones I've done on some of the, you know, now I've done a late rifle tag that, you know, some people say I'm like, it's the same quality of bull if you want to compare inches. But this. I don't care about inches anymore. I really don't. I hunt for adventure. I got tired of playing the game, of being in those best units, and I. My wife a long time ago told me, you either need to start guiding or quit hunting. Because the amount of time I was spending, the amount of money and time I spent. This is before kids. A long time ago, I was taken out. If I didn't have a tag I was going every year with, I would find somebody with a tag, and I was basically guiding for free for years. And then a buddy of mine runs a great guide service here in Arizona, so I ended up guiding for him for a few years. And, yeah, it's fun. It's not my thing. I hate pouring my. My passion in for this stuff. To have a guy show up and he's just like. A lot of times clients are not. They're there to. They're there for a glorified camping trip or whatever. I'm like, man, I spent all summer waiting for you to get here so we could just go tear it up.

And.

And you know, they're. They're not that into it. I'm like, yeah, I can't do this.

I'm sorry. So. No, I hear that, man. And guiding in Wyoming, I. I feel like I was just having this conversation the other day with somebody. It was like, man, the really good hunts, like, when you get someone who's in shape, who loves the whole. The whole thing, you know, and is just there to, like, have a good hunt, and you're like, hunting with a hunt buddy, that's great. That makes it all worth it. But when you have a rough one, dude, it can really. I mean, like, at multiple points last year, I was like, I think I'm Burned out of hunting. And then I really realized because, like, I would go home for two days and be like, okay, I need to go back hunting. It wasn't. I was burned out of hunting. I was burned out of client management.

You know, I've never been burned out on one of my own hunts. Like, guys are like, how do you spend that much time out? Whatever. I'm like, every time a hunt's over, I just want to go back. I mean, obviously, I love my family. I miss them, and I love my life. And it's. It's nothing to do with that, but I'm like, I just feel I'm supposed to be in the mountains, you know, so.

Yeah, no, that makes a huge difference. And it's also like, you know, you. You had made this comment earlier, and this is going to lead into some questions I have about your Wyoming hunt. But you were like, if someone says it's hard, you're like, I kind of want to. I want to do that. You know, like, that's. That's half the. That's half the fun I feel like, is when someone says, no, I don't think you can do that. You're like, well, watch me.

Yeah, exactly.

That.

That does tie into the Wyoming hunt. So I. I weighed heavily because I think I had. I had 12 deer points, I believe. Oh, man. Should I. I always, you know, just reading magazines over the years, reading Eastman's. I know you're affiliated with them now, so throw them a plug. Yeah. Back in the day, growing up, reading easterns magazines, like, all years. G and H. And. And so it was always in my head, man. And I've never done a high country hunt. And really quickly, we were talking earlier about how mule deer and Kuzier are so much alike. The only difference here is Kuzdeer don't have, like, they're not up in a base and above timberline. And then. And then eventually working down. There is no big migration or anything like that. So that's. That's the difference. But everything else is the same. But, yeah, going into. Going into G, I was just like, look, I've always wanted to do this. Everybody says there. I kept hearing a lot of guys going, I'm not gonna go. I'm not gonna go. I'm like, well, maybe there'll be less guys than I knew there'd be less deer. And. And there was. It was. Obviously, I. I don't have any history there, so. But it felt exactly like what I heard. It felt like 70% of the deer were missing.

Yeah. Just a lot of empty country up there, huh?

Yeah, what it looked like. I mean, there were entire basins where you just wouldn't see a deer or whatever. I ended up seeing. I remember the exact. I want to say 23 bucks. I think I was up top for nine days. I took llamas up there, spent the whole time up there just solo. It was awesome adventure, you know, that's. I'm. I was more after the adventure. And I'm like, I. I always tell people when you're talking to a non hunter, like, my neighbors are like, dude, you were going for two weeks. You didn't bring us home any meat. Like, I don't understand. And I'm like, I'm not hunting for the animal. I'm hunting for the adventure. And if I'm lucky enough to be blessed to bring some meat home, then that means I found something really special. So. Because I will not. I'm to the point now. I've got enough heads on this wall. I'm running out of space. So I'm like, I'm not anything unless it's really old or a unicorn. So I call it hunting unicorns. I always tell my neighbors I'm going hunting unicorns again, so it's got to be something special. But, yeah, I saw. I did find one. I typically same thing happened to me in Colorado last year. One out of the thousands of deer I looked at in Colorado, there was one. And for me to be able to find one is a success, because that's the hard part. So, like, being able to lay eyes on something, it's like, that's. That's what you dream about, that's what you read about. That's what you hear about. Those things are special. And to turn one up, especially when you've never been in an area before, I'm like, just see them. To me, I don't feel like I fail at all. Yeah. So the one buck I found in g it, unfortunately, there was no way to get to him from the peak I was on because it was straight off cliff between him and I. So I had to go all the way back down to my truck, drive all the way around the other side of the mountain, come back up, up the other trail. So it took me a day and a half to get to him. And I only had, at this point, it was the last day of the hunt. So I was like, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna pour everything into that one buck. And I never turned him up once. I Got over there, you know, into his bedroom. So.

Yeah, well, you were talking about cruise hunting and how like you guys had been on the same glass of knob and hadn't seen the same bucks the whole time. And it just takes freaking time, you know, like those bucks will be in the timber and like you got to catch them when they come out. Especially just when this pure spot and stock, you know, approach. And I'd say especially in that high country, like that's the, that's what's usually most effective. But if you don't have the time, man, that, boy, it, it's tough. I mean, even when, even when you do, sometimes it's just like they, you know. I had a friend of mine up in that same country last year. He found a buck in the summer and he hunted him and hunted him, hunted him and never saw him, never saw him. And then he was up there the day after the rifle season closed looking for elk and saw that buck. He was like, God, he's still here, you know?

Yeah, we had a. I had a really good snowstorm come through when I was up top up there in G. And I was in contact with another out of state hunter that I had. I had met through a different forum, but we'd never met in person. But we were talking, we're staying in touch and he's like, hey, how's it going? And I was the only one up. It's so funny because you hear when you go to G, like you're never going to be alone. You're never gonna have a basin to yourself. You're gonna have guys on every hill. I'm like, that was not my experience experience. And I don't know if it's because of the year I went, I saw the first day in there, I saw one guy coming down off that peak and I had another guy walk up behind me glassing. One day. He turned around, just walked away. I never saw him again. I never saw any camps, never had anybody walk through the areas I was glassing. And then he called me. We had a. I think up top I had about, I don't know, 8, 10 inches of snow. That kept me in my tent for about a day and a half there. I mean, you could. There was no visibility. There's no point to even get out in glass. So laying in pretty much a day and a half waiting for the snow to break and I'm contacting him and he goes, everybody down here is fighting over hotel rooms trying to dry out their gear. Our butts are kicked and we're all wishing we were where you're at. And there's rumor that there's a big buck up there in the basin that you're in, but nobody can get to him. Like, it takes us to get to where I was at from town. Like these guys, like, he goes, if I left at 3 o' clock in the morning, I still wouldn't be there till like noon or so. I don't know, I forget it would take me nine hours to get to where you're at. I'm like, that's, that's why to me it was worth buying the, or renting the llamas. And I'm like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna stay and I'm just gonna put the time in. And even though, you know, I didn't kill anything, I, I'll never forget. That's my first and maybe only high country hunt. Who knows? Hopefully I get out and do another one. But yeah, loved it.

That's awesome, man. You know, and speaking to your hunter pressure thing, the, the hunter numbers came up just a little bit in 2024, but still from 2020 to 2024 season. So that's five hunting seasons. The deer population in Wyoming is down 33% and resident general license sales are down 30%. It's like kind of maps the population a little bit. And I was like, I mean, that's kind of been my experience too, is like, my tag's only good for one. You know, that's all I'm looking for is one unicorn. And there's a lot fewer guys out there right now. Obviously it's probably changing, you know, as as populations are coming back up, guys are getting excited to get back out. But yeah, you, I mean, as far as an experience is concerned, like you said, you value that part. You probably hit it on the best year to be up there with, with no people.

Yeah, I definitely enjoy. You know, everybody wants to find a basement where there's nobody at, and that's so hard to do anymore. But even people get discouraged. Like, seeing people is not the end of the world to me. And even if, if a guy's up there and, you know, would have shot that buck, I would have been happy for him because he's up here doing, you know what I'm saying? It's like people make a big deal about it. We all want our space to ourselves. But most of the time, like, even on my cousin hunts, I see people. I, I kept seeing the same husband and wife team. We're passing Each other on the roads, on our side by sides, you know, cruising the different knobs. And I'm like, man, everywhere I go, I keep seeing you guys, I'm glassing. You guys are on the knob across stream. Like, apparently we got the same idea. And I'm like, hey, good luck to you, man. You're doing the same thing I'm doing. I'm not worried about it.

So, yeah, it's. I. I've started feeling that way too. It's like. Well, especially oftentimes if someone is on a glassing knob across from you, they can't see what's underneath them. You know, they're not a. They're not a threat at the stuff that they can't see. So even if you just have a different angle, you know, you're. You're. You've got a different advantage and a different hunt going.

I had acoustic shot about 60 yards underneath me one time.

Oh, no. Okay. So that's a little dangerous maybe.

You know, if you've ever. If you've ever been on the receiving end when bullets. You hear the bullet before you hear the gun go off. And you know what it sounds like when a bullet hits a body cavity? It's like there's just this pop, you know, So I heard it, and then you. The wash of the. Of the gun and the deer actually ran and dropped about 15 yards from me.

Oh, my. That's a little closer. Comfort.

Oh, I stood. I had seen those guys across from me, you know, didn't. Didn't think. They had no clue. I was sitting there. I'm sitting down in my little glasses. You're glassing. And so I stood up and I. I just yelled. I go, he's right here. You got him.

That's awesome. Oh, my God.

We didn't know you were there. I'm like, yeah, you got him. So I stayed there until they came around just to make sure they found it. But it happens. It's rare. I mean, but things happen.

Yeah. I mean, you know, you've been hunting your whole life. How. How many times does that happen to you? That once. There's.

There was one other time where guys were shooting at an elk on this hill. I knew I was in a high pressure area, so I put a orange safety vest on. I had it in my backpack, and I put it on, and they knew I was there. They didn't care. They were. I literally laid down on the hill, curled up in the field position because of the running, and I didn't know which direction he was Going to run.

Oh, geez.

That they didn't get the elk and they didn't get me.

So everyone came out unscathed. That's good. No, I think that that is. I mean, it's unfortunate. You can't control what other people are doing and obviously. But most of the time, if you're running into your. The husband and wife or whatever, and they know you're out there, like, you can kind of make game plans and make sure you're not right on top of each other and shooting at each other. So, yeah, friendly.

And I try to talk to people and, you know, just, what's your game plan? You know, you don't have to tell me. I don't expect people. You probably know this, being a guy, like, when I was a guide, I would stop and talk to people, but I would tell my client, I'm not your guide. I'm just your buddy helping you out. And, you know, I. I never lied to anybody or sent somebody in the direction they wanted to go. But obviously, if I'm after something big, I'm not going to tell you. But amazing. When you just have a conversation with people, what they'll tell you. So just roll the window down when you're passing somebody, pick up, hey, you see anything, whatever. You just have a casual conversation. Unless you say, oh, I'm the guide and he's the client, then everybody hates your guts. So I don't know so much. I'm like, hate the client. Like, he's the one that's paying for this guy to know. Like, if you want to hate something, I'm just a guy who loves hunting, and I got an opportunity to do it. And my wife said, get paid or quit. So I had to.

Yeah, well, that's something that I. I haven't run into any. Well, some guys weren't too happy. They were. You know, we would stop and talk to him last year when we were hunting elk, and they're like, yeah, I haven't seen an elk for five days. And we're hunting the same drainage as them and are seeing elk every night. And we're like, what? And then one day we walk, we come out, there's. We called in some help to help get the bull out. And so there's four guys in a buggy and a nice bull in the back. And they looked at us, and they didn't look like they were very friendly. After that, I was like, oh, sorry.

Yeah, there's bad apples out there. I've. I've definitely run into them too. I've had other guides try to run me off the road so they could get to a spot before me and stupid stuff like that. That's why I don't like these, these primo elk hunts in Arizona. I'm like, I don't even. I hate going to them anymore. I got so burnt out on dealing with some of that stuff. So I, I spend most of my time in places where I, I have zero issues. When I do run into people, it's usually very friendly. And so.

So is your. Is your kind of overall tag strategy now? I mean, especially now that you burnt 12 points in Wyoming, Is your overall tag strategy to kind of hunt more frequently in places and just like, go have more adventures or. What's your thought on it now that you've kind of gone through the different progressions?

Well, like, I have not through my own personal elk experience. I've killed, you know, a couple elk now. I. I have an elk tag in Wyoming this year. I wish I. Honest, Honest to God, it's gonna sound horrible to all you elk lovers. I'm. The one thing I don't have is great mule deer experiences. I've killed one mule deer my whole life. I did that g hunt. I went to Colorado last year, had an incredible hunt in Colorado. Ended up not filling that tag either. By the way, I'm the worst hunter in the world. Like, you're not going to find a bunch of animals on my Instagram or whatever because like I said, I, I hunt for stories. More like for experiences, for me to kill an animal early on a hunt. Like, I passed a great buck on day three of my Colorado hunt last year.

I.

Great pictures of them. Send it to my wife and she's like, I hate you. Pull the trigger and come home. Like, I can't. I can't do it. I. If I see that buck on the last day, he's. He's done. But I just don't. I'm not ready to end this. You wait years for these tags and you build. But yeah, my strategy now, to answer your question, is I'm mostly focused on mule deer hunts. And I was planning on going to Utah to hunt mule deer for the first time this year. I got some general deer season points there I could have burned. But then when I was looking at my long term just tracking my points, I realized, well, I'm. I'm actually probably going to draw another elk tag here in Arizona next year, and I don't want to hunt elk twice in the same year. They're big and they, they take long. I'm like, I don't need two elk in the freezer. Yeah. I was like, well maybe I'll burn. I got a, I had, I think I had 12, yeah, I had 12 elk points in Wyoming. So I'm like, I'll just burn my elk points in Wyoming and go, and then I'll go to Utah next year and hunt meal there. But I'm, I'm really trying to do, I can only afford to do one out of state hunt per year and then I just throw everything at my koozdeer hunts here in Arizona. So that's kind of what I do.

Cool, dude, I love it. We can talk unit specifics offline, but did you end up going limited quota on the elk hun, or were you thinking you're gonna do a general and bring someone else in? What's your, what was your thoughts on that?

This is part of why I'm like less excited. So I, I've been, I've done a terrible job of including my kids. I've been selfish with my time and like my son has no desire to hunt, which is totally fine with me. My daughter likes to go with me and she's never killed anything yet and she's only had, she had a deer tag a couple years ago. She hasn't had a lot of opportunity but she's gone along with me. But she comes to me, she's like, dad, take me honey. And I'm like, I should have done a general split my points and taken her elk hunting in Wyoming and I didn't and now I regret it. So I'm going on a, it's a late rifle tag solo, gonna be a lot of snow. I'm a desert rat, so I'm like, part of me is just like, man, what did I get myself into? Canyon by myself. I'm like, I should have taken my daughter. What am I doing? So I've already, I've already had that experience and so I am excited about it. I, I kind of like pick on it a little bit. But yeah, well, if you, I'm going to roll back to this question, but I, I, I need to do a better job of including my daughter. So I do have some questions for you on that, but.

Okay. Yeah, for sure. So, and this is just good for everybody to think about, but I'll make the offer for you too. When you get out here, let me know. And the nice thing is is when you go to these different places there is an opportunity, there's a chance you get Into a real pickle. You, Your truck breaks down, you, you know, you hurt your leg getting a bull out or whatever the case is, right? So let me, let me know kind of what part of state you're in. I'll probably put you in touch with some guys just as a. Just as a safety measure, because, you know, like you said, anytime you're out solo hunting, you can get yourself in a real pickle. I had a client do that last year in Montana. He got out by himself. He got out fine. He fell through the ice into some water and it was November and bad deal. But anyway, yeah, I just think that's actually really valuable when you're traveling out of state. Just know someone who's kind of in the. In the local area. And like I said, I'll put you in touch with somebody if, If I.

Got some friends nearby, outfitter in the air. And he said, it's him and one other outfitter. And he goes, but we don't. Because I was like, dude, you can I pay you for a pack out? Like, especially now. Me, like, my knees are getting worse. I'm 48, so I'm not getting any younger. And I'm starting to feel it. And like packing an elk out in the snow, it sucks. I've done it. And if I could just have a guy with a horse roll up and pack it out for me, I'll do everything else myself. I'll butcher it, like all that. I don't care. But he told me that. He's like, yeah, we don't really do that because we're. We're already gonna have a full paying client with us, you know, up. And he's like, I can't break away from a full pan client to go pack some other guy. And I'm like. I was like, well, are there any packers in there? And he told me he couldn't think of any. And so that's the answer. He was a great guy, by the way. Nothing against him, but I don't blame him.

Yeah, that's. That's pretty much the case, I think in Wyoming. I think in Colorado there seems to be more of that than there is in Wyoming. But, you know, maybe llamas. Maybe llamas would be another option for you. I'll. I'll. I'll talk to you about that here offline a little more too, if you want. But like, there's some places you can rent here in lander on your drive. Go pick them up and just stake them out at the truck, you know, and Then once you do kill, then you can go grab them. So that might work. Good for you. Yeah, man. So I'm excited for you. I think. I think you've got a good plan. It sounds like you've got a really good rotation going too. Like you're going to have. In between drawing in your home state, you'll have other hunts and adventures you can go on the next quite a while. I mean, if you're 12 points in, you've got all sorts of stuff stacked up.

Yeah, if. I mean, that's my. I used to only build points of Wyoming because that was the first place I ever went. This will be my fifth trip to Wyoming now, so I don't know how or why I picked Wyoming. Way back in the day when I went.

I think it's not close.

No, I drove through a lot of days to get there. I. I wonder now. I'm like, I don't know. It seemed like the best opportunity for the least amount. It didn't take a lot of points to go to Wyoming back then. So I want to say 2010 might have been the first year I ever went to Wyoming on a mule deer hunt down in K. And I think I went there with zero points. I think I just got the idea, like, oh, I want to go out of state. I don't even think it took any points back then. So I can't remember. It was either zero or one point back then. But yeah. So my advice to anybody, like, young guys, is it worth building the points or not building the points or whatever? You do have to. You. You can't just build points for everything everywhere you do. Everybody's on a budget. I get that. But I just been stacking points knowing that, you know, hopefully someday I'm in a position I get to use these. So. And now I'm in a position where I was like, okay, I want to go hunt. One out of state hunt a year. It's not. It's not crazy. You can do it. You can make it happen. And so just go have experiences. Don't worry about killing, you know, adventure. And I don't hunt for. Back in the day, it was all about inches. Like, I got tons of stories about letting Kuzdeer bucks go because they weren't. They weren't that magic mark. It's like, I've had great bucks in the crosshairs and be like, nah, you're two inches short of my goal. I'm like, what if. Yeah, I could go back and punch myself for some of the stuff I Used to do.

So, man, that is. It just seems like the progression a lot of people go through, though. It's like, I just want to get one. Then you get one, and you're like, I just want to get a mature one. Then you get a mature one. Then you're like, I kind of want a bigger one. Then you go, like, start chasing inches, and then you realize what. What it takes to chase inches, and then you come back off of it, you know, and you're like, okay, let's just have a good hunt. Like, let's just enjoy our time. I think it's. I don't know if. If anyone should or shouldn't go through that arc, that progression, but it's nice when you get back on the other side and make it fun again, you know?

Yeah, that's. That's the biggest thing is have fun, man.

Yeah, for sure. What was your question about your. About your daughter's situation?

Oh, so I got antelope points. I think I have nine antelope points, Wyoming. And when I look at what's available, if I were to split it with her, that's four and a half. Like, there's. There's not a lot of opportunity. So I. And this would apply, I guess, on any hunt. And it doesn't even have to be Wyoming, but because you know Wyoming better at that point level, you're going to be having to deal with some type of problem. There's. There's just no hunts. It's like, oh, it's all wide open. Great. Antelope hunting for four and a half points. No, it doesn't exist. Not, Not. Not in my research, it doesn't. So. Yeah, but for a guy who's not from Wyoming, I wouldn't even know where to start, who to contact. Like, how do I. They're just like, you know, don't put in for this hunt unless you already have arrangements with a private landowner. And I'm like, well, how would I even go about. And you don't. This is part of what you do. So I don't want to overstep putting stuff out here for free on public.

No, it's okay. I want to teach people. Like, I'll just teach them, and then obviously people can hire me to do it for them. But, like, I'll teach people how to do it all day.

That was actually one of the things I wrote down before, because I wrote a couple notes I wanted to talk about. I'm like, you need to promote yourself more. Your service. Great. And I don't Want to take anything for free from you that I'm totally willing to pay for. We can have.

Oh, you're good. No, you're good, man. So one of the things that people can do as they're looking at these prong, like pronghorn's a great example. Whitetail, cow, elk, you know, even mule deer in places. There's like a public access tab on the game and fish website that you can kind of get started. Like some people just give access and you have to call them or, or they'll be like, access $200 trespass fee or whatever. And that's on game and fish website. That's pretty helpful. But there's a new service out there. I guess they're a handful of years old now called Infinite Outdoors. And I've worked, I don't have a formal relationship with them, but I've looked up hunts through Infinite Outdoors and sent guys their way that way. Because then you just have. Let's just say in this example, this is actually super calm. I've probably talked about three or four guys about this midpoint level with pronghorn and you're like, but I would like a little bit better access. And I was like, well, you can either a, pay for the special draw and unlock some better access on public land, or you can take that same thousand dollar difference and pay for a thousand dollar trespass fee through like an infinite outdoors or however else you come upon it. And, and then, you know, like bring your, bring your daughter in. So there's definitely. I, I like the idea of paying for, you know, especially with how expensive the special price pronghorn has gotten. I like the idea just go in the regular, in a unit that might not have as much public access, but you pay for private access. And so usually you can have this big nice private ranch, not a lot of guys running around. And then if you don't find what you're looking for, you can still check all the public pieces and like the walk in areas and stuff like that. I think that's a pretty good recipe to have a good hunt and still find decent animals without being in the middle of war zone.

Yeah, no, that's, that's great advice. I, I can totally see why, like if you had to pay extra money towards going in the special or, or you know, private access, I think private access would be a better investment all day long.

Yeah, especially at that midpoint level. It's where you're like, okay, well if I do get the special tag, you're still out there with I mean, some of these hunts in Wyoming, like 5, 6, 700 other hunters out there at the same time, they can be. Even with good public access, it can be really busy. Now, the. The saving grace is Wyoming's got pronghorn coming out their ears even when they're on down year. So, like, it's. There's plenty of animals to chase. But it's like, goes back to your commentary on, like, what's the experience or the adventure you're looking for. And like, when you're taking your kid out, it's like, well, I don't really want to have, you know, combat war or combat hunting, you know, to try to get a good pronghorn down. So, yeah, my take.

Me and some buddies did a antelope hunt in Wyoming several years ago, and it was fun.

It's a lot of fun.

It's a lot of antelope. It's so funny. You go back to the first year I went to Wyoming on that deer tag in K, and I was like, cruising around like, oh, my gosh, look at these antelope. And, oh, there's one. You know, I had never hunted antelope at that time. And I called game and fish. I was like, hey, all I've ever heard is there's more antelope than people in Wyoming. Like, can I just get a tag? And they're like, yeah, no, it doesn't work that way. Yeah, all up and grab one during the middle of deer season. It's like. I was like, oh, man. Well, you guys need to stop advertising. You have more antelope than people because. Yeah, a lot.

Yeah, well, and the nice thing is, like, you know, especially right now, you read the headlines about the winter kill, and that's specifically for that southwest and. And south central part of the state. But what hurt pronghorn populations and pronghorn tags was a drought that we had in the northeast and the eastern corner. They showed like, the three eastern regions. I was at the Game and Fish Commission meeting last week. They showed the three eastern regions tags, you know, about 7,000 a region or whatever, and all the rest of the state combined does not equal one of those regions. So, like, that's just where the. It's where the pronghorn are. And unfortunately, that's also where the private land is that you have to manage. So, yeah, that's kind of the state of the state of affairs on pronghorn now in Wyoming.

Yeah, that makes sense. I, you know, I. I haven't really dug into too hard on the antelope stuff yet, but I. I really need to. And now my daughter, she's graduating high school this year. She's going off to college. And I'm like, really need to get her out. Like, so. The problem is she never. She's always played soccer her whole life. She's busier than me. She plays soccer. She has awesome grades. She has a job now. She's going off to college, got scholarships.

She's.

She's just crushing it. And I'm like, she doesn't have time. And I. I get it. When I was younger, it was like I was working 80 hours a week and just buying points, dreaming of going on one day. And now here I am. I'm like, I got a little more time and money saved up. I could go. Yeah, it's always busy in the fall. I'm like, well, maybe I can take you on. I don't know. I asked her if she wanted to go kill a lion. Because I had so many lion encounters on my koozie hunt last year. I'm like, I know where there's some lions if you want to do that. She's like, I don't care, dad. Take me hunting. So she's. She's cool like that. She doesn't care about what it is. She just wants to go.

That's sweet. Well, the nice thing about pronghorn hunting, you know, like, for those who don't know, obviously you've done it, but you don't have to get up early if you don't want to. I like it because I'm like, I just want to use all of the day, but you don't have to. And usually if you've got some access or you just, you know, can work, get away from the road systems a little bit, it's gonna not take a whole lot of days, you know, like, if she has a long weekend, you know, you can get out there and make it happen, which is kind of cool. Minus the drive, obviously, for you guys and for other people coming a long ways. You know, usually the drive is a full day, but if you carve out five days, you know, a day of driving on either end and then three days of hunting, it's like, you better be picky, or else you'll be done early.

Might be worth flying in and, you know, turo a truck and save a little time doing that, I actually.

I think that's a great idea. A lot of guys haven't used turo very much, but doing a turo like, drive and for pronghorn, like, you Were just kind of talking about flying with a. Flying with 50, 60 pounds of pronghorn meat. And then like checking it's kind of, you gotta skin the head and pressure wash it, make sure it's not all gross. But you can check, check the pronghorn meat in a cooler, you know, pay an extra 100 bucks on your flight or whatever. And then this is what I sent my friend home, he lives in Hawaii and came out and shot a whitetail this way. And we just sent him with the head like boiled out. Well, more or less boiled out. The head was in his lap, like as a carry on. They have no big deal with that, so that's funny.

I'm sure he got a lot of looks on the plane.

Yeah, yeah, but we wrap, you know, we wrap the head up in cellophane and then like you put another wrap around it so it just doesn't look like super gross.

Right?

People are, you're out of Wyoming, people get it, gift shop.

So. Yeah, I know.

Yeah. No, that's good stuff, man.

Give us stuff like that around here, you know, down here in the big city. So, yeah, I was gonna say something about that actually. When I had that G tag, I, I flew up there and I took a weekend, rented a turtle, I flew into Salt Lake, picked up the truck at the airport, drove up there and just drove around the whole mountain range. And I went back and listened to your last podcast about how to scout or prepare for an out of state hunter, whatever. And I'm like, I never hear anybody say this tip. So I'm gonna throw it out there. That's what I did. And it, it can work. It's good or bad advice. If you don't drink, it's not for you. But if is to go into some of these small towns and go to the bar at night and just start talking to people. When people find out, when people are like, wait a minute, you came all the way from Phoenix up here just to drive around and look at this mountain? You're going deer hunting this year in the worst year, like, everybody in the bar was like, we're not going this year. Like, guys were begging me, don't go. I said, no, don't worry, I don't kill anything. I'm all my hunts. So I was like, if I find some, if I kill something, it's going to be something that ain't gonna make it to next year anyways, probably. So don't worry about me. But once I like realize like how much passion and stuff you put into like, guys are willing to fly out here just to. Just to scout for a hunt, and it's on their back door, so they just don't. But I actually had guys open up to me and tell me things. And one guy was an outfitter. He's like, obviously, I can't tell you anywhere that I'm planning on going, but I've been here before. I'm not going through shirt. But he. He literally put an Onx pin on my map and said, I saw a huge buck here a couple years ago. Excellent.

That's sweet, man.

So don't be afraid to scout all day. Here's my tips. Fly in Turo. Get a pizza. You can eat a pizza for a whole day. So I always stop at the pizza place, get a big old pizza, throw it on the desk, and I just eat pizza. I drive around scouting, and then hit the bar at night. You may learn something, you may not, but it's. It's still a good time.

Yeah, dude, that's awesome. That's exactly. I killed a turkey a couple weeks ago, and it's our third. Our third year in a row. My friend and I have doubled on turkeys out there. The first year we had, you know, just. He was calling people, just trying to find access. First year, we had one place to access, and then we were hunting public other than that. And we. We scraped out. I just, final minute, scraped out our second turkey. You know, it was just kind of like, this is tough. But from that, from that trip out there, we went to the bar every night for dinner, and we got another place to access. We're like, okay, sweet. And so then we had that spot, and that's where he killed his turkey this year. And then that year, we picked up another spot. So now we got like three or four different private places that we can go hunt just because we. We're barflies when we go visit that country, you know? And, like, it works really good. I mean, I don't even drink. Like you said, I don't even drink that much. But we go there for dinner, and you end up BSing with people. And, like, it's. It's one of the ways, I think before Onx, before the Internet, like, it's one of the most effective ways people used to get information. And I think we forgot that that's a good option.

Yeah, I'm. I'm old enough that I'm like, we didn't have even. Even podcasts. Like, I. I'm lucky. Like, I listen to thousands of hours of podcasts. Because I can listen while I'm at work all day. So I just consume information all day. It's not always about hunting. It's about lots of stuff. But, yeah, I am from the old school where, like, even before trail cameras on, like, if you wanted to know what was using this water hole, you had to sit. I mean, I've sat hours and hours like this water hole and put my buddy on that one. And so down here, water is crucial. So it's like you. You would just pick an area and get three or four of your buddies and sit all the water in that area, and you're pretty much going to know el cap the water pretty much every day. Okay, we know what's in this area and then go hit another area. We would work a grid just like you would the camera. So, yeah, yeah, you can get good and bad information in bars and stuff like that. But the point is, talk to people like, wherever. Have to be a bar. Another instance when I was actually on the hunt for G, I was getting ready to go up, so I spent the night down at the base of the trailhead. And I got the llamas. And anytime you got llamas, people come over and talk to you. Like, whoa, what is this? You know, so this. This old guy, like, in his 80s, came over to me, and he's just like, hey, you know, you plan on going up here? And I just told him I was doing. And he wasn't from Wyoming, but he'd been hunting that mountain range for 40 years. And he comes down every year. I think he had an elk tag. He goes, I'm just putting around here, trying to see if I can get lucky in the bottom. I'm too old to go up there. But he pulls out his phone. He's got tons of pictures of bucks he's taken out of the. Off the same trail that I'm going up.190 here, a210 there, like, giant bucks. He's like, oh, yeah, I know. I know this mountain like the back of my hand. And he's giving me pointers. Just. Just talking to a guy at the base of the trailhead. Especially them old guys, they're like, it's still hard. It's. They're still passionate about it, but they can't physically do it. So if they run into a guy that's got the passion and the legs, they're like, okay, I'm gonna live through you. So I got his information. He's like, if you kill something, you need to call me and tell Me and where. And I was like, I'll tell you everything. Yeah, it's awesome, man. So don't be afraid of some people wherever you're at.

I almost feel like the older, the better. Yeah. You know, like, they want so badly.

To do what you can do and. Yeah, you. You still get to do it.

Yeah. I was in this. This desert unit this year hunting with some clients, and we were just, you know, basically, it's like a drive and glass type area. Like, there's no roadless really to speak of, and it's all really flat. And I was just like, I. You know, we can find out because we're using our optics, but I don't know how the elk use the ground. And we're sitting there, we're glassing. We're watching this herd come down this, like, you call it a drainage, but we were out in the desert, and it was just like a relief that had taller sage brush in the bottom. And we're watching these elk come down, like, this drainage from miles away, like, you see so far. And we're sitting there in the glass, and then this old timer rolls up and he's like, hey, you guys see some elk out there? And we're like, yeah. He's like, wow, that's about on time. He's like, I normally sit right here where you guys are and. And just watch the elk come by. He's like, every year they. I don't know. He's like, I don't know why, but they do this thing every year. They just come from the mountain, 20 miles away, and then they just, like, walk across the desert right through this drainage. And I was just like, man, that is some, like, you know, next time I'm out on that hunt, you can just go right to that spot and probably hang out with him because he's going to be there, too. But, you know, that's the kind of stuff you just can't pick up on on X or off Internet.

Yeah, that is gold for sure. Let me turn around. Like I said, I had a couple things written down I wanted to. I don't want to miss. Oh, I was going to give you a hard time about something.

Oh, let's hear it.

You had an Instagram post. I can't remember when. It was, like, back probably around January, around the first of the year, sometime about, like, get your HW hat. You know, get your home Swiss hat. And I'm like, okay. I clicked on it. I tried to get it, and it wouldn't accept my payment. So how's the guy supposed to buy a hat from? You win the thing.

Oh, shoot. I, I haven't figured out how to get the Internet or like the website working very well, but I do Venmo to get a hat, so that's, I tried. I wouldn't go through like, oh, that's funny.

I don't. We're gonna have to figure that out.

Okay. So I appreciate that. You'll be my, you'll be my guinea pig. Get this thing dialed in. I've had people venmo Me or PayPal or whatever, but. Yeah, well, I'll get that squared away. Yeah, that's funny. I've got a bunch sitting here too. I got especially a bunch of orange hats that just come in. And those are obviously required in Wyoming to hunt. Wyoming, Montana, Colorado got an orange requirement. So if anyone wants one. Venmo me.

Yeah, and I, I think a lot of people you're doing a much better job of promoting now. Your business is a little bit newer, you know, within the last few years as far as branching out on your own stuff like that. But I, I originally, I remember you. I heard you on a podcast years ago. It wasn't yours, it was somebody else's. I don't. You might remember what it was. I don't even remember what podcast it was. But you've been doing this a long time. Like, you, you have a lot of, A lot of knowledge, especially in Wyoming, you understand the animals, the, the biology behind a lot of the stuff and, and the relationships you out there. So for anybody thinks you just started doing this a couple years ago or whatever, I'm like, no, this guy, this guy knows, because I've heard you for years talking about stuff and I always appreciated your, your input.

So thanks, man. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't think, like you said, I don't think a lot of people noticed, but I was. Started this stuff in 2021, so it's been a few years of building it up for sure.

Oh, I have one more question I was going to ask. The one thing I haven't figured out in 30 plus years of hunting is I'm one of those guys that no matter what I do, I have cold feet. And I know when guys ask you about boots, it's like that you can't tell a guy what's going to be comfortable on his feet. But do you have any tricks for a guy that no matter what I do, my feet are gonna be frozen?

So are your feet cold even when there's not Snow.

I can manage that. But when they're. Oh, it's like, I, yeah, I'm screwed when there's snow.

This is a, this is a good, it's a mountaineering trick. It's like a rock or an ice climbers trick. And I think it works for hunting too. Hunting purposes, because those guys, you know, they'll be standing there in the cold, you know, belaying somebody. And I used to work in a ski shop. I was around these old timers that were old ice climbers a lot. And what they would do is they put like a therm, a rest pad, you know, like a glassing pad. Basically, they put that on the ground under their feet when they're standing just to get their feet off of the, off of cold, wet snow or off of the ice. And so I do that especially because my tripod now is tall enough I can stand in glass and no one wants to sit in the snow in the first place, but that's a good way to do it. And then the other thing, my friend Hayden and I, we, we learned this the hard way in like 2018. It was negative five out and there was a full moon, but there was like 8 inches of new snow, and it was perfect elk hunting conditions. We got up to this basin, we can see the elk in front of us in rifle range, and it's not shooting light. And we're just sitting there for like 20 minutes waiting for it to get shooting light. And we're like, what do we do? What do we do? Like, we're freezing. And there's more to the story. His gun ended up jamming or freezing up, and we had to start a fire, but we're just waiting. And obviously these elk are close enough. You can't start a fire when they're 200 yards away. So we just started doing air squats, just air squats and push ups behind this rock. And that, that kept us alive. And honestly, like, you know, once, once you get 20 or 30 of them under your, under your belt, you, you could start sweating. So that's kind of always been the backup plan if your feet really get cold and you can't. And you're like, I cannot get these things warm. I just air squatted out.

That's, that's what I do. That's what I learned to do. That's why I say I can manage without snow. That's my without snow game plan. Like the insulating, the thermal rest on the. For the snow. Yeah. For me, I sit in glass for hours and I don't move. And that's what gets cold. My. My core, everything. But, like, from my knees down, just start to get colder and colder and colder. And so, like, even on these coos, deer hunts, it can be. It can be in the 20s, maybe 30s, when you just sit there without moving for hours. You just got to get up and circulate a little bit. But, yeah, when I'm like, when I was up there on that G hunt, after that snowstorm came through, my feet were. They were beat up after that, they were so cold. And I. Of course, I wasn't wearing insulated boots. I think for this elk hunt, you know, it's going to go into. It's late October, early November, so there's going to be some snow for sure. I'm like, I got to figure something out. I'm going to buy a different pair of boots this year. But I haven't run insulated boots in 25 years, so.

Dude. And this is, I guess, another thing that I've done, especially since I started doing a lot more November, December elk hunts when I started guiding. And I wear insulated boots, like, because it's just when you're glassing, you gotta have them, but as you're hiking up to the spot, your feet start sweating. So I started bringing an extra pair of socks, even on day hunts. And as soon as. If I'm like, all right, we're gonna be here glassing for an hour or whatever, I'll just swap out to a fresh pair of socks. And that seems to help quite a bit, too.

Yeah, I definitely think moisture management's huge. Yeah.

Especially while. While you're still warm. Don't wait for yourself to get cold, you know, to do it. Cause that's. That's the killer is once you do get cold, it's real hard to get warm again.

Yeah, I've tried. I've heard guys swear by the down booties. So I got down booties, and I'm like, I take the boots off and put the down booties on, and I'm like, my feet are still freezing, guys. This thing, I don't know. I've tried doubling up socks and different things. So I'm like, I don't know, man. If you're just sitting in the snow, I don't understand how you can get warmer when you're just surrounded by ice. It doesn't really work that way, so.

That's right, man. Yeah. Well, and. And it was. I was like a. I ran a short, backcountry, lightweight tripod for a Long time. Cause I was like, oh, I'll save weight, save weight. You know, I'll sit to glass. And then when I started doing more stuff in the snow, I was like, oh, I gotta, I gotta be up, I gotta be standing. You know, even just not having your knees cranked in a, in a L shape helps helps keep that blood flow going better, in my opinion.

Yeah. And if you're standing up, you're naturally just gonna move a little bit more. You know, you're gonna step away from the binoculars for. Even if it's just for a few seconds. And. Yeah, helps when I sit, I'm like a statue. And it's like when I finally do move, you can actually feel the cold blood running through your body that was only in your lower legs. And then now your whole body's freezing because all that cold blood just started. So.

No doubt. Oh, that's good. Well, thanks for the questions, man. I'm, I'm glad that there's some, some things that you might ask for cold stuff, you know, like you said you started off the podcast. I was like, so what's koozier hunting like in Arizona? You're like, it's hot. And I was like, my, my hot temperature management is not quite as good. I mean, you can only lose so many clothes, but at least in, when it's cold, you can always do more.

So yeah, come from opposite spectrum. So I work out in the heat every day, so I don't, I don't enjoy. I used to always tell my wife, I'll never leave Arizona. The heat didn't bother me all growing up. I always said it keeps you tougher. So, so I, I've sat on a glass. I've hunted antelope in 100 degrees for two weeks straight out here. But yeah, as I get older, I'm like, oh man, I can't wait to get out of here. It's starting to bother me. So I can't do, can't do these summers anymore, man. They're rough.

They're.

When you want to scout too. And it's, it's hard to get motivated to, to go out there and, and do it when it's this hot. But no doubt.

For sure. Well, thanks again for hopping on, man. I gotta get jetting. We're doing a adult onset hunter education program this weekend. I'm pretty excited about. Is there any, you know, final thoughts? You know, especially as it's related to people visiting Arizona to do these hunts, you know, any, any good, final, final tips for people coming down that way.

It's so weird because I'm from here, but when I hear guys talk about Arizona that aren't from here, everybody walks away. Like, it's just so different down there. And I'm like, I do kind of feel like that, like when I go other places, man. Not to. This is going to sound weird, but I'm like, and it's not everywhere. But I do think it's harder here than it is a lot of other places. I think you can come here and get your absolute butt kicked. I. I do think that there's a sharp learning curve here. And I think you can say that, like I said, a lot. It's a very general statement. But we have a lot less animals because we have a lot less water. And so people come here in the densities are half of what they're used to seeing or even less than that. And guys don't stay motivated. I mean, when I was guiding, I always had the day four rule. Guys by day four, if you haven't given them a great opportunity, they're ready to quit. It gets tough. It gets tough.

Day four, I mean, that's the same up here for elk hunting, man. Day four is always the make or break.

Yeah. So I, I say push past it. You never know. I know you gotta run. I don't go on forever, but one of my favorite guiding stories was I actually on the last evening, sitting a water hole with a client. I apologized to him. We covered every square inch on that hunt. It was, it was tough. It was just a horrible week. And I gave him this whole 10 minute man. I'm sorry. We hit it hard. We saw a couple bulls, but they were always too quick or whatever. And then after sitting there and he's like, it's okay, man. We had a great experience. Last 30 seconds of light. The biggest bull on the trip, you know, because we had five hundreds in camp, he killed the biggest bull.

That's awesome.

Like five seconds of light left and he just smokes it right there in front of us. I'm like, well, forget everything I said about all that I'm sorry stuff. So, yeah. Have to hunt to the last minute. Don't give up. That's. That's my advice.

Wow. Sounds like the theme of this whole conversation was it just takes one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just keep trying.

That's awesome. Well, thanks, man. If anyone wants to catch up with you or see what you got going on, I know you don't post a whole lot on social media, but where can they find you?

I don't. Honest. Honest to God, you guys will look at. The only thing I really look at is Instagram, and I, I scroll it and I look at stuff, but I don't. I just quit posting because I just don't care. I, I, I'm like, I remember life before social media, and I wish we could go back to that.

So I do, too, except for the nice. That there's a nice thing. I get to meet random folks that are good hunters and to chat with, like, you. You know, like, there's some.

There's a lot of good. I try to use it for good. So. So, I mean, guys could try to send me a message on Instagram if they wanted to talk to me, but odds are, like, I might not even respond. And that's not being rude. I just, it's not, it's not my thing.

Yeah, that's cool. Awesome, man. Well, thanks again for doing it. We'll touch base a little bit about your elk hunt and your possible pronghorn adventure. So, yeah, thanks for your time. I'm looking forward to your season.

All right, man.

You too. Later.

Thank you for listening to the Hunt west podcast, where, if you like what you heard today, the best compliment you.

Can give is to share the show with a friend.

We will see you on the next.

Episode, and we hope one day to.

See you Hunt West.