Breaking Down Elk Hunting: Simplifying Your Strategy for Success

Foreign. This is the elk hunt podcast. Home to everything, elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. All right, today's episode of the YoCon podcast is brought to you by my good friends over at Maven Optics, a Wyoming based company that just absolutely crushes it. Love the team, love the product. Been using it for years. Can't recommend them enough. I always say it's the absolute best bang for your buck. You know, they're a direct to consumer brand, so you're not paying the middleman, you're not paying huge markups. And they are truly great product. Been using them for years, so can't say enough about those guys. If you're looking for some new optics, check out their B series binos. I use the B6s. I'm also using the the RS 3.2 rifle scope. The RS 1.2 is a great rifle scope too, so a ton of great products. If you guys are in the market for some new optics, check them out. Great company and love those guys. Head over to mavenbuilt.com use the code TRO and tell them that you heard about us on the Elcon podcast. All right, Jaden, welcome to the podcast. How are we doing, buddy?

Dude, I'm doing good. It's been a minute since we caught up. I'm excited.

We talked about Argentina.

Yeah.

Right.

When I came back, like in the end of April.

Yeah.

Or beginning of April.

Yeah, we kind of. We should probably touch on that too. We actually have to talk about that after this. I don't know that it's going to work out this year to do like an elk hunt thing, so. Man, this is taking me down a rabbit hole. I wasn't planning to go. Wasn't planning to go down. So we talked about doing an elk training course. I don't think that's going to work out the first year. We're gonna take some friends and just test it out. Yeah. And test it out. And then after that I think we could probably do something along those lines. But I think we're gonna get a go. A bunch of people DM me and we're like, I'm in. And I'm like, okay. It almost was the problem. I had too many. Yeah. So I gotta figure that whole out anyway. We gotta talk about that afterwards. But that's not this part. Well, you and I just got done prepping for. For Wyoming.

Yep. Dude, it's only like three months out.

It's days away.

Yeah, it feels like.

Think about it, especially this time of.

Year, like, if you add any scouting in and like all the other things, like with family and trips and whatever else that happens in the summer, it happens so fast. Yeah, I'm kind of nervous.

I think we got a good, solid plan. We're pretty pumped about our E scouting. Neither of us have been there.

Yeah. And the other thing is, like, we were just talking about, we had. You know, this is the second time this week I've talked about putting Onx on a tv and we were talking about how, like, that blows things up in such a way.

Dude, you see things differently. I said it to Mark the other day and he's like, he's like. Because he always talks about multiple screens and I'm like, I kind of use multiple screens. I use a tv. You put it on a big screen and dude, things look different.

Things look different.

I'm not just calling it high def, but like, we were looking for a camping spot with water. And like, I'm, I'm like watching the TV as I'm panning, like, man, that looked like, where is that? And I had to like, look at the screen and it was like, oh, like, I can't. Different, very different.

It would have saved us, dude. Yeah, it would have. If there's water there, like, which is big if.

Right.

But it would save us like an 800 foot drop every day to get water if there's water in there that we found on the television.

So, like, I'm a big fan of it.

Me too. Someone asked me, like, well, do you only scout on the TV or just only on your computer? And I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, instead of scrolling Instagram, I'm usually Onx, like just kind of like killing time looking at stuff like on my phone. So it's all of the things. But yeah, if you're doing like a hardcore session, like, I think it's a game changer.

Mark and I talked about this. Like, he, he got this message and it's so funny how you learn things from like clients or talking to people. I've noticed that once I started talking to a lot of listeners and going through E Scouting, I'm sure the same way you, you learn what people do and you're like, it teaches you a lot, good and bad. Mark was like, I didn't realize how many people were trying to escal and like, build plans off their Phone and I'm like, oh, I mean, I'll do it. Like, if we're watching Netflix, I'll look at my phone and escout. Exactly. But like a not the same thing. Even the computer is not the same to like multiple screens and tv. Like, there's levels. There's a lot of levels.

Yeah.

Let me just say if you're E scouting only from your phone, you're doing it wrong.

I would agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. But what I do oftentimes is like, okay, if I'm starting to look at a 10,000 foot view of a place and like, figure out where pressure is, figure out where private is and like get just like the big overview of a unit or a couple units, like that's fine. But when you're building out, like, where's the camp going to be? Or like you start looking for wallows. I'm like, dude, you got to be on a computer or on the tv. Yeah, that's definitely the way to go.

Yeah. Okay, so today we want to talk about something that popped up in the podcast the other day. And I've heard it a couple times, and it's an interesting concept, which is maybe it's information overload, but it's like everyone is taking courses, listening to podcasts, doing all the things. And Jason, who I just did a podcast with last week, he's like, man, I took your course. I took Corey's course. And then I get out there and I'm like, I just lapse or forget it all. Like, do you find, like, have you heard that? A. And what do you. What do you think that is? Is it information overload or what?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of information overload. And like, people just get into a position where they go like, well, there's only one right answer to this and I don't know what the right answer is. So therefore interesting, you know, I. Do you remember, I don't know if you got told this when you were playing football, but back in the day, the coach used to be like, I don't care how bad you mess up, but as long as you're messing up thousand miles an hour. And instead people go the other direction and they freeze and then they just don't get aggressive enough or don't make a decision when they need to be making a decision.

Right.

And I think that's where. Yeah, the information overload paralyzes people. Instead of giving them tools to like, just act in that situation.

Dude, I could definitely see that. I think, you know the thousand mile. Be aggressive, right? And I think when we talk about archery, elk hunting, for sure. It's like, whatever you're gonna do, be more aggressive than you think, and we'll tone that back down. But, like, don't overthink it. Yeah, this is the big thing. I think a lot of this comes into. You get all this information, and then you overthink it. You're like, oh, should I do this? Should I do this play? Should I do this play? Should I do. You know, elk nut said I should do this. Corey said I should do this. Sean Mellon said, don't do anything. Like, you know, like, whatever. Like, yeah, just stalk it. And so, like, I do think it's a little bit information overload. I think it's like, just not being there, not being in the. Like, not having the gut intuition of what's gonna work. Where to get gut intuition. What's the good. The saying about, like, to make good decisions, you have to first make a bunch of bad decisions or whatever. Like, to have good instincts, you have to have a lot of bad judgment, essentially.

Yeah. The other thing I don't think people realize is, like, even guys who are doing it all year, every year, super focused, they assume they never mess up.

Oh, no.

You know, I think that's the other piece of it is, like, they just assume, like, oh, these guys are dialed. And it's like, goes back to your at bats thing. Well, if you have a bunch of at bats, you can screw stuff up.

Totally, totally. And you also have a lot of intuition that's developed from that. And so, like, I do think that, like, if you're in that position where, you know, you're just not figuring it out. Just do something different. I don't really care what it is right or wrong. Like, if it's not what you're doing is not working, then, like, switch everything. Like, that's a good. Good, like, signal to be, like, change everything we're doing. Go, let's go somewhere new. Like, whatever it may be. I. I'm blown away at how many people will just hunt the same spots over and over that are, like, marginally good to, like, not even. Not. Not, like, the top would be marginally good. It's like, man, if you're just not getting into elk every day, try something different. Do something different. I don't know. It's your. That dude.

And, you know, I want to shout out, Alex. He just hit me up for a hunt plan, and he got ahold of me because he. He had a place that he was like, dude, for the last four years I've hunted this one drainage. I killed a cow elk out of here. I've been in elk. He's like, but there's a lot of pressure. And he's like, and when that gets blown up, I don't know what else to do.

Right.

And he's just like, I just know this one thing. He's like a one trick pony. And so he was like, how do I expand this out? And I think a lot of people.

Just, what's the advice there? Cuz the, the initial reaction would be like, okay, what? Like take that and replicate it. But I don't know if that's the answer because the downside of that is like, ah, well, you have, you have a spot where elk are, but it's not a good spot. Like, so maybe like if you just replicated that, you'd get also marginal elk hunting with lots of your friends. Yeah. And their dogs, you know, like that's.

Where I was, I was pointing out to him, I was like, okay, well like look at something different.

Right.

So he was in this up, up high country basin that's you know, a day hunt in. And I was like, okay, like have you tried hunting down by private? Like, have you tried, like, just go do something totally different? He's like, I didn't even think that was an option. So it goes back to that, you know, keep it simple. Right. Like be like, okay, this high country basin is like my A plan.

Yeah.

And then it's like, what do I do in the event of that not working out? And then have your B plan just already mapped out so you don't have to spend any time thinking about what's next.

Yep.

Because I mean, we were even doing that when we were talking about our Wyoming hunt. You were like, okay, what if this, like there's not a bull in this drainage that we want to look for?

Yeah. Screwed by like committing to this.

Yeah. And then we're like, okay, well we're just going to come out. You know, it's going to take us a couple hours to get back to the trailhead. Going a different one.

Yeah.

And then I had Brad Brooks on the podcast and he called it a spoken wheel strategy. So he's got like home bases in the, in the middle, especially for backpacking.

Right.

But you come back, you know, refuel, getting more food or whatever, and then go back out at a different drainage without having to pulley, pop, totally pop smoke and go someplace else, which I.

I think is the best strategy. It's like a mix of backpacking and, you know, truck hunting, which, like that. That wheel spoke is a great example where it's like, oh, I have a base camp and I'm not loading myself down with eight days of. I'm going, like, little loops. Right. It's like, you know, in a circle, whatever. Obviously it doesn't work out exactly like that, but, like, that strategy of, like, I could check a bunch of areas. I also feel like when you're fresh, like, if you suck at hunting, that's a good strategy because, like, assume you're not good at picking areas. You know what I mean? Like, you're just not going to pick. You're not going to throw a dart at the map and be that successful with a, you know, a full pack. I don't know, 8 mile back end, 10 mile, whatever. If you're going in 2, 3 miles, you're gonna get at bats at areas. So you're gonna figure out more areas, you're gonna figure out more locations. You know, like, it goes back to, like, man, cover more ground. I think so many people are not thinking big enough. And I think if you could see how I hunted those places, you'd be like, oh, man, you cover a shit ton of ground. And like. Yeah. Because most of it sucks. Like, most of it doesn't have elk. That's just kind of the reality of it. Yeah.

And going back to, like, dumbing it down or, like, keeping it simple for someone who's, like, has too much information. It's like if you do this preloading.

Yeah.

Of planning, you. Once you get on the ground, you know what to do next.

Yeah. Just, like, built. And it's building a system. I hate to beat a dead horse, but it's like, you build the system. And the other thing is, like, I do think you could limit, you know, I think these podcasts, YouTube channels, like, all these things, like, they almost put too many tools in the tool chest. I think if you're starting out or fresh, like, get good at one or two plays, right. Get. Get three good plays, right? Three good plays is better than, like, a hundred unexecuted plays. And so, like, I don't know if you watch, like, heist movies or whatever. What's the. We were just watching. Oh, white color. So in white color. My wife and I just finished White Collar. I think that movie's from, like. Or that show is from, like, 10 years ago. Anyway, long story short, they always had names for, like, certain heists. Like, oh, we could pull the. I don't know, the Granny Goose, whatever. Whatever you call it. And so if you just had three plays that you can execute really, really well and get good and be like, oh, which play should we use in this scenario? Like, they always. They always have a version that's going to work best for a scenario based on external factor, right? I am such a big believer. Like, with Elcon, it's like, man, get good at, like, three scenarios for me a long time. Like, one of them was like, the rake. You know, I would rake and get a bull. So solo hunting. I could locate bulls, and I would get in tight and I'd start raking. I'd get them to rake, and then I'd slip in and shoot a bull. Killed a number of bulls that way, right? And it was like, oh, could I, you know, rake and follow? Rake and follow. I would do rake and follow all the time, and I would just follow a bull until he turned around. I'd piss him off until he turned around, and I would start raking. He start raking. And then I knew I could, like, maneuver a little bit, and if I could keep him just interested enough and he would start raking a tree and I was, you know, sub 100 yards, I could close another 50 yards and get a shot. Like, that was a group tactic. I would have that, you know, Or I do. Like, another tactic I would use is just like, blind calling. So I just do up, like, super soft cow calls in bedding area. So, like, that was like my midday, you know, technique, whatever. Or, you know, say you want to do calf calling. Calf calling is really popular right now. You slip in and you got a herd, right? And I'm like, I'm going to swipe it, slip in close to that herd, start calf calling, see if I can pull something over, you know, maybe I'll keep working in tight with a herd. So just those three plays, right? Those are. If you can do those three really well, you're gonna kill an elk. Like, it's just. It's just math, right? Yeah. So, like, do that. Cover 10 to 15 miles a day. And like, we're killing elk, End of story. And so, you know, like, master those three things. Rinse and repeat. Tell you, like, start to get really good at being close to elk. You're getting at bats, you're getting gut intuition. Then you can, like, get into the elk nut stuff where you're like, cows calling bulls and like, all these other things that are, like, in my opinion, 301 level techniques good in, like, a small percentage of Situations. But to be honest, 90% of you don't know when to use that or how. I would argue that, like, the challenge Bugle is a, like, 5%, maybe a 10% situational thing. Like, sure, when it works, it works. But, like, you gotta have a lot of, like, context for what's going on, what the bull's doing, what the temperature is, like, all those things. And it feels like everyone just like, that's the default. I don't think that is true anymore. I think a lot of people moved away from it, but, like, yeah, it works 5% of the time. I don't want to say it never works. I would use it. Like, I've used it. It works. Like. But there's a scenario, right? Like, let's just play a scenario out in my head where it's like, I slip in. I'm not gonna say anything. I. 40 yards from a cow, I'm like, I'm waiting. I don't need to say anything. Like, this bull's gonna come. Check this cow. Uh oh, Cow looks my way and, like, starts acting funny. Good time to challenge bugle. Yeah. The game was up anyway. Like, let's just, like, see if we can escalate to success. Great scenario. Am I, like, is my first option to go in and challenge bull? Challenge, bu. That bull. No, but, like, there was a scenario. I had that tool in my tool chest. Sure. But I'm not just going to run up to every single bull, challenge every herd, and challenge Bugle to see if he'll come over, you know? Anyway, long story short, I don't know where I was going with that. That was a soapbox t. Soapbox tangent. But my point being, you know, find two or three things at work, figure out, like, master them. Spend the year just mastering those.

Yeah, dude, I think that's so important. It goes back to, like. Like, there's some guys I grew up around who would tree stand or wallow sit. Like, all that was their. That was their game plan. Right. And I was talking to another guy who, you know, his hunting buddy loves sitting stuff. He's just really patient.

Yeah.

And I'm like, dude, that'll fricking work. Just sit there and do it. Like, just run it, though. Because if you're half in, half out, you're not. It's not working for you at all. You hear bugle and leave, and then, like, you know, a bull comes in right where you were sitting 20 minutes later. Like, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, the sitting. Sitting is a great example of, like, you Got to commit to it. Because it only works if you're all in for like the whole seven days, right? Yeah. And you're going to get much better. You're going to hone that skill, right? Like, I think of the guys who put tree stands up and like, they get really good at knowing where to sit, those type of things. I mean, not for me for sure, but like, if, if you're like, okay, that's a tool I think I would be good at based on my skills, where I hunt, you know, like, I only hunt the over the counter stuff in Colorado, Right. I'm gonna tell you, challenge bugle ain't gonna work there. So, like, you gotta find, like, you gotta think outside of the box, right? You're like, glassing doesn't work in my area. So maybe I do need to like sit water, Right. Maybe that's, you know, I, I think you could make the argument that depending on the week of season, what you use for tactics, like, you can have like, here's my three tactics. Early season, here's my three tactics mid season, here's my three tactics late season. I think that's like a fair. There's gonna be some overlap, right. But like, if you went into this year, you know, you're whatever, whatever week you have and you're like, I'm gonna just try these three tactics. I personally think that's like, you're never gonna be overwhelmed and then you can focus on like, I'm going to get better at finding elk. I think this is the number one thing. Like, I'm going to cover more ground, I'm going to do more things. I'm going to prioritize the right times a day. So like get good at step two of the system, which is finding out. But then when it comes to getting close to elk, I'm going to focus on these three things. Like. And that's it. Those are my three plays and I'm really good at those three plays. Yeah, I feel like that's like bread and butter. I mean, if you go to like classic sports, right, like football, like, if you kind of had three plays, you were like dialed on. Like you could run these plays every time. And there's bread and butter. You're gonna get six yards every time. Like, we're gonna win. Like, that's just how it works, Right. I don't know. I feel like hunting's that way and I do think it takes the mental fatigue out.

Yeah. And you're gonna run into situations where the defense knows how to stop One of your plays. But you're not gonna get everyone, you know like that's. That's really the important part.

Totally.

So here's a situation that I think can overwhelm people and like make them stop and not do anything. And it's a good problem to have. How would you handle a situation where you walk into a basin and there's three bulls bugling all around you and you can't see them. Right. It's timbered aspens, whatever. You can't see them and you're like well what, what do I do now? There's three options. Like ah. Like yeah, how would you go through that? Are you chasing like oh that sounds like a good one.

Or are you saying Cody rich or average guy? Let's go shoot a 6.22010010 so 2100 is like honestly I'm trying. I would try to pick out who's the most aggressive probably like I'm trying to figure out where the. Where the herbal is versus satellites of. Well I shouldn't say obviously most likely it's a herbal. Multiple satellites depending on the date. Let's say post 12th that's the case. Pre twelf it might just be a bunch of satellites. Definitely had that before. A lot of times it's just like go after the first one. Like they'd like don't overthink it. Go over the first one. Yeah.

Like get the wind right.

Get the winner right. And like whichever one's in line first, don't overthink it. Right. You know that is very common like thing though. It's like oh which one? Let's go after the bigger one. Well I don't screw the whole thing up just to go after the bigger one. Might not be. I would man, I'd be curious your opinion but like odds that it's the biggest. Sometimes it's very evident. Most time it's not right. Yeah sometimes. And the other thing to think about, not to overcomplicate this. Oftentimes the herbal is not saying anything and it's the satellites talking. So I'm still trying to figure that out. Right. So I'm again trying to just figure it out as I go. I'm going to like I'm going to slip in and rake and follow like rake and follows. A great tactic in this scenario where it's like they're all talking. I'm not going to do anything so I'm going to try to push in and keep him talking. Get as close as I can Mimic. Mimic him and then start raking. Mimic him and start rigging if he moves off. Okay. A lot of things are happening. One, are they going to feed? Are they like, where? Depending on the time of day. Right. So if it's AM Are they close to bed? What do I think? You know, all. There's a bunch of factors going through my head just to give you context, but I think I could run the mimic, rake, mimic, follow, play pretty consistently here, get close. You know he's going to start raking usually in that scenario. Or like, you're getting close to him, you're getting closer and closer and you're just raking. Like, generally speaking, that's going to like, show me that bull. Assume I don't shoot him. Assume like, I figured out where the herd bull is. Now I'm like, okay, now I have the herd bull. There is chance once I get closer to the herd bull. We got multiple satellites in this basin. So I could pull the calf cow. I can pull that calf call like that. That's a good play for that situation. So I get close to the herd and I'm like, oh, that's the herd bull. We're all like, I say we're all like, the satellites, the herd and me are all going this way. I'm looking at onyx throughout the whole time. Like, I think that's where they're going or like, whatever. Like, I'm gonna try to get close to the herd. The closer I get to the herd now I can pull that calf call out and like, we got satellites all over the place. Like, sure thing. Right. So that's. This is a good example of like in one basin I'm going to try, like different things. Both are. Could work depending on which one I'm at. But like, if I go to a. If I went up to a satellite in calf called, it could work too. Like, I like, you're welcome to try that. Yeah, I think either one would work. The, the problem with the caf call to a satellite, again, this is me going 301. But like, it may draw in that situation and blow everything up. So. So if I go rake, mimic, follow, I'm just another bull sounding roughly the same in roughly the same aggression. Like, those are pretty common interactions that would happen in that basin whether I was the human in there or not. Like, another satellite could come in and like, oh, we're getting close to another satellite. So we're kind of sizing each other up like that's normal. No satellite's gonna blow up. But if I half call a satellite in, and he gets there. All of a sudden, I had to shut up. And then he smells me. Like, likely won't blow it up, but, like, there's definitely a chance. So I don't know. That's a good example of. I. I could use both of those. Trying to think of another play I would run in that.

It's kind of like a choose your own adventure maybe. Like, but the worst thing, and I want your opinion on this. Like, the worst thing I feel like, is to stand still and challenge people. Like, I think that's what a lot of people try to do is like, well, I'll just call one of these three into me. And it's like, oh, I guess.

Yeah. The thing not to do is, like, the soft cow call. Like, yeah, all these satellites in this basin know where the herd bowl is. They know where the cows are. They know exactly everything that's going on. So the worst thing I could do is, like, try to call them over to me. It might work, depending on how close I am. But, like, yes, your point of, like, they're still 250 yards away. Why aren't they coming to me? All these satellites want cows. It's like, no, they want the sure thing. They can smell and see mama over there. And, like, they're all kind of following. They're keeping their distance, depending on the. The herd bull. But, like, they're not moving away. Like, I'm not going back across. Like, that's a rare occurrence. And maybe people just don't understand that. Like, yes, I have called very big bulls a very long ways, and it has happened. But most of the time, they will bugle at you and just keep following the nose. Like they can smell the herd. The herd's been doing this. We have this pattern. Like, we. The elk have this pattern, and they all been doing this thing, right? And so, like, it is a rare exception that I start cow calling and across the basin, a satellite bull comes to see what I am. Like, it has definitely happened to me. I just wouldn't bank on it.

Yeah. It's like, I can think of one time in the last four years where I was sit. I, like, went out to this really high knob where it was, like, cliffy and, like, it was terrible below me.

It was horrible.

And I bugled off to try to see if I could get something to call back, and I sat down to, like, glasses basin for a little longer, and then all of a sudden, I hear a bugle, and this bull is charging up the hill. At me, and I'm like, whoa, what? Like, that's not normal.

Yeah.

And I think that's what people expect to be common. It's not. It's.

That's.

That's the exception, not the rule.

I would say, like, the other thing to think about is, like, I feel like I'm. I say this too much. Follow the herd. Because all the other elk following the herd too. You know what I mean? Like, you're just going to be in the action. So the more you can figure out where the herd bull is and where the cows are, all the satellites are going to follow them too. And, like, the more you get into that situation, the more likely it is to call that elk 5% or 10%. Everyone's trying to call it, you know, the 9010 rule. You have to go 90 and make them come 10. Like, don't go 10 and expect a bull to come 90. I don't care how big it is or how small it is. Like, I mean, maybe a spike, but, like, for the most part, if we're talking, it's just a good rule of thumb. Like, focus on 90. 10. Like, I'm gonna go do 90% of the work and let them come 10. It's. It's just so much easier. And like. All righty, guys, quick interruption from the podcast. I tell you that right now we're giving away a maven spotting scope and a tricer tripod and panhead setup. So really sweet setup. It's a S3 spotting scope, Tricer 80 tripod with an LP panhead, really slick setup. All you got to do is enter your email over@elkhunt201.com to get entered to win. And if you want five bonus entries, you can sign up for my elk hunting course. But you don't have to. All you gotta do is enter an email to win a brand new maven spotting scope and tricer setup. So huge. Shout out to those guys for hooking us up. It's gonna be a sweet giveaway. Go check it out. Get your name in the hat. This gets into, like, just being a good hunter, better Indian, right? Like, don't try to, like, rely on all these, like, tools. Like, at the end of the day, just get in front of the elk and the elk walks in front of you and you shoot with a sharp stick. That's it. Right? And so, like, if you over complicate it back to the whole thing is like, don't over complicate it. Just like, I have to find elk, and then I Have to get in front of elk and get the win. Right. That's it. Like, it's not complicated. I think we. We juice it up with all these, like, tactics and things like that, which are good, and I think you need those. You need good understanding and good frameworks. But, like, at the end of the day, like, don't overcomplicate it. It's just walk up to an elk and shoot with a sharp stick.

Yeah. So if there's some elk that are doing some stuff, like, I feel like this happens often. And it was actually in the early days when you and I first did our 201. It was a couple years after that. But in the early days, I had this elk herd that someone pointed out to me, and they're like, hey, you should go chase those. And they were going up and over the next ridge, and I was like, dude, I can't keep up.

Yeah. Would you.

If some elk are doing a thing that you couldn't keep up with that day, would you leave those elk to find new elk? Are you gonna.

Yeah.

Still just, like, try to. Try to get in position to somehow make a play later.

Two things. I will leave elk to find elk. I think that's, like, a misnomer. People are like, why would you leave elk to find out? Well, those elk go to a poopy spot, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

The wind sucks, you know, f the win there. So I will leave elk to find out. I'll keep a mental note, like, maybe something improves upon that situation. Like, there's elk that go to a really crappy spot every day. And I had this scenario in my head. I'm thinking of where it's like, man, these elk went to this freaking pocket. They're like, I was. It was just impossible. It's an impossible pocket. But guess what? They'll move in a couple days. I'll move or someone's going to bump them or whatever. And so, like, keeping an eye on them. Right. It's just today wasn't the day. The spot wasn't the spot. So, like, we need to go find other plays. With that said, it goes right back to what I said. Like, get in front of the elk. I. You know, one thing about hunting out east has taught me is, like, those elk go a very long ways. Like, you will always be behind them until you predict where they're going to go or, like, you know, try to figure it out. Right. And so sometimes a couple days of knowledge can go a long ways. Not always, but, like, a lot of times, if you're like, oh, man. Like, I know how to find these bulls before daylight. And they bugle like crazy. We just can't keep up, right? Or I. We had this where it's like, man, they seem to take a different path every day and then shut up. And it was, like, very difficult. So. Well, two scenarios. When Craig and I were hunting, must have been 21. We had some elk that would. Gosh, they'd shut up and take a different coulee. And we never really did figure it out, right? Go leave those oak to find elk. Like, the worst thing we do is hunt these elk all week and not be successful like they are. They kicked our butts, like, three or four days in a row. And I was like, I. I don't know if these are the elk we should be chasing. You know, we burnt some days. But a different scenario. The one the bull that Helm killed last year, like, that bull, like, I knew he was going a long ways, so I was like, I want to get, like, a couple miles back and hear him coming, right? I knew where they were feeding, and I was like, got back, and it was like, a matter of running to try to stay in front of them a little bit. But it was able to figure out where they were going, right? So it's like, let them come to you a lot more than you would think. You know, I kind of ran the back math. I was like, okay, yesterday he gets to here, and he was kind of bugling a lot longer than some other bulls. So it was like that particular bull would just bugle a lot more so I could figure out where he was going for a lot farther. So I was like, okay, it's gonna be. I'm not gonna see them till well after daylight. But once I do, I'll hear him coming, and I know which coolie he's gonna go up or what area is gonna go to. I think of, you know, more temporary hunts, like Idaho, you know, if you can, you know, where they are at night. Where I've located them in the night is maybe not the best place to start. And I. That was a mistake. I made a lot of times where it was like, yeah, finding elk at night is convenient as hell. But, like, all sudden, they turn and go, and I can't keep up. So it's like, okay, well, where'd they go yesterday? Like, maybe I could start. Get a head start, right? If I get a head start, then I can hear where they're going. I can almost keep up if I can cut a half mile or a Mile off, dude.

It goes back to that conversation we've had a lot, but then I just consistently have it with people is like, if you're on time to where you need to be, you have the ability to make an audible. Like, you can get in front of them or whatever, but if you're starting from behind, it's really hard to get.

In front the other. Like, this may seem simple, but, like, starting uphill, you can move a lot faster down than up. Yeah. You know, like. Like, this is one thing I did in Idaho. Like, screwed me all the time. I was like, oh, yeah. You start at the bottom, and, like, you're trying to chase these elk uphill. Good effing luck, right? Whereas if I spent all morning getting up on top, like, I could be farther away or, like, off a lot more, because I knew from top I could drop quickly and catch up. Right. So I can cover ground real quick going downhill. It's the uphill that gets me.

Yeah, dude. All this is, like, I'm so pumped because I'm in the middle of building this plan for this guy, and he was talking about. He's like, yeah, like, kind of get into elk in this spot, and there's this wallow in a meadow that, like, it's clear those elk are there at night. He's like, but I'm getting there at daylight or a little after daylight, and, like, they're not there. And then he was kind of talking. He's like, well, and I chased one bugling bull, and it went up and over the ridge into the next unit, which I can't hunt. Hunt. And just in talking about this, I'm like, oh, bro, you got to be up there. If they're using that saddle into the next unit every day. It's only a thousand yards. Yeah, dude, you can just. If you're starting high where they're headed.

Towards the pinch point.

Yeah, that's the pinch point. Or, like, there's a pretty clear pinch point of a couple hundred yards where they're pitching off the other side, but they're going to go feed at that alfalfa field, you know, like, in the high country.

I, you know, like, on that, it's like, you. You should probably figure that out. Whether it's in the daylight or not, dude. Some of these elker cruising for the most part. I don't know. What's your opinion? Like, I feel like they start to move as soon as it cracks maybe a little bit. Before.

Yeah, before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, like, usually not, like, an hour before.

No, but, like, right when, like, I, I, this has happened on a hunt, then it was a rifle hunt, but the elk were just going nuts. My buddy Hayden and I were laying there, and he's getting ready to shoot this bull. But we're watching for shooting light. It's opening day of rifle season. We're watching for shooting light, Watching. He's got like two minutes until shooting light, and this bull is just going crazy. There's like 60 elk in front of us at 200 yards. Like, he's going to whack this thing as soon as the clock strikes. And like one minute before shooting light, those elk round up and go into the timber, leave where they were feeding. And I was just like, oh, no. But that seems to be more common than them staying out there longer.

Yeah. I'll give you a scenario we had in New Mexico. When I took the Patreon guy down.

There.

The plan we had was not working. We had to come up with a new plan. We had found a giant. The only option was to sit water, right. Not talking or whatever. So that plan had kind of fallen through. We did call in another decent bull. He passed. Long story short, go to a brand new area, and I'm like, we're, we're going to do a spoke wheel, right? Like, so we're going to bounce out, take sleeping bags, see what we can find in the nighttime. So we hunted the evening. Didn't seen a couple elk. Knew we were indecent clear up till dark. And then where we had heard a bugle right before dark, we, like, ended up going back up to that drainage. As we get there, it's like mayhem, right? So this is, I don't know, hour after dark. And, like, it's mayhem. And I'm like, oh, here they are. And so we're just like, let's pitch bags, sleep in the rocks, right? Like, so just sleeping bags. We pitch bags and we're a couple hundred, I mean, 250 yards from the herd. They're just going bananas all night. And there's nothing better than sleeping on bull. Like, rut fest, right? So we're sleeping and it's just a rough fest. We wake up. I bet it was two. I have to look back, but I think it was probably two hours before daylight. I was like, I want to get up. And like, I just, yeah, whatever. So we get up, we're putting bags away. And I had noticed, and it would go on and off, quiet. Like it wasn't like all night. All night, but it was like, go on and off, like, whatever would happen. And it was, like, quiet. And I was like, I don't know. I got a bad feeling about this. And so I was like, let's. Let's keep moving. I think a lot of people would have been like, let's wait till daylight, see where they are. And we start cooking, like, where they were and pushing. And I could hear. And then I start to hear it going up the other side. And I mean, it was like 30, 40 minutes before daylight already. I was like, we gotta go. We gotta go now. 90% of people would have sat right there and, like, waited for daylight, figured out, right? It's like, no, these elk are. They're moving. So we start chasing them in the dark, you know, still. And by the time it gets light, I mean, they're lined up, going up the hill and just cracking daylight. As you know, we're already so across the basin and going up the other side. It was everything we had to keep up with those elk, right? So we. I'm like, we're pushing pretty hard. And sure enough, they kind of like, we lost him for a little bit, and I heard one more, so, like, head over, like, just fast as we can, and ended up calling good. Like, 315 bull back to us. I don't know if he's probably satellite, but if we would have waited an extra 20 minutes to 20, 30 minutes to get to daylight, never saw those up. Like, they would have been gone, right? And we barely had enough speed to get back to where, you know, those elk are going to push you up. And then when they first get to where they going, you know, they'll start to, like, mill around and, like, a little bit of chaos there, and you can kind of capitalize on that. I still don't know where the herd went. Like, I think we just caught some satellites or whatever, but great example of, like, yeah, if they start. They start going well before. I mean, those probably started moving 30, 40 minutes before daylight.

Dude, that's huge. That's. That's. It feels like that's more common than not especially when it's hot. And it feels like most Septembers are hot.

I feel like so many people are like, man, they were here last night. Where'd they go? And, like, if you really just were there the whole time, you realize they were going nuts all night. 40 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever. Before daylight, they went up over the next ridge. You just couldn't hear them. And, like, you know, I just imagine this guy, call him the 101 hunter, and he, like, Walks up and he's like, well, there was. There's elk sign. I don't hear anything. It's like, yeah, two hours ago, it was chaos right here. And then, like, it doesn't take much for those elk to get over a little bend and like, you just can't hear them.

Yeah, that's for sure. Okay. We didn't plan this, but I have. I want to do rapid fire because I don't even have anything written down. But, like, this are just like, common things that I hear, run into or personally think or like, run into. We're going to do rapid fire, and this is how fast I think people should probably be making these decisions while they're in the mountain.

Right? No pressure.

So, yeah, no pressure. Okay. First thing that happens. Let's just take that. Take that example. You walk into a new place and you walk in, you find a meadow with a wallow in it, and it looks like there's fresh sign. What are you doing?

What's the date?

Okay, let's just run. All these examples are going to be September 20th.

Oh, okay. I'm gonna. Yeah. You're like, many variables. I don't know. That's the hard part.

So just choose, like, the most classic. Like, it's like a bas and it's all covered in timber, but there's one park down in the bottom where the water comes out.

Let's just assume it's 10am I probably gonna throw out a couple south cow calls. Wait, listen, see if there's anything super close. I probably do that a couple different times. And then maybe throw out a lazy bull bugle. Just like, I'm really testing water. The reason I'm doing all of that is because, like, is there a bull within a hundred, 200 yards laying there? Like, likely could happen. Right. And this is a two, one, one hunter. But it's like, I'm just gonna, like, see what's real close and then I'm gonna try to judge. Okay. If it's not real close, that means there's a herd in here, but they're not within earshot. So I'm trying to, like, test what was in it within earshot. And then I will like, okay, maybe we should come back this evening or start looking. Like, if there was elk in this area, where would they go? And then I'm gonna go test that. So again, time of day kind of matters, but maybe not. I don't know. Okay, Right answer. Or not right?

No, that's not. That sounds. That's a common example.

Yeah.

Okay. Here's another one for you. It's cracking first light. You're up on a glassing knob, and you see these elk three miles away at first light. What do you do with your day?

You said. You said elk? Yeah, Bulls, cows.

Yeah, cow. Like a herd. And you're wanting to kill the herd? Bull. There's a herd of 15 cows and one bull.

Dude, this is hard because there's so many great ones. I know first instinct says. I mean, I've had this scenario a lot. So. Cracking daylight, I see a herd of elk, and I'm like, oh, possible shooter. Need to get closer to tell. Three miles away is a long ways. I'm gonna watch him as long as I can. Like, there's nothing I'm going to do between now and bedtime. So, like, I think the. The first here's. Here's the noob move is like, alk, let's go. Where'd they go? You know, like, that's like, classic move right there. So, like, every piece of detail I can get three miles. Like, I'm not probably gonna make it. I'd rather just know where they went again, how open that is. Like, if they're gonna disappear in two minutes, I would. I could probably catch them. That's a bold statement, but, like, I think I could catch them. So, like, there's. There's two scenarios in my head. If I'm gonna be able to see a lot, then I'm like, let's just watch where they go. Like, let's figure out where they bed. This is a midday attack, in my opinion. We're going to go in. This is not a rake mimic follow. This is like, slip in cow calf or don't say anything. Get close midday. It's probably going to be like, how do I get into striking distance midday and see what the scenario is? Number one, I want to know where they go. Number two is like, it's super thick. That's a stud bull. I'm judging his temperature. Is he, like, super hot or is he, like, not saying much? Right. If he's not saying much, he's 20 yards behind the cows and there's satellites. I know exactly what's gonna happen. He's gonna go up, bed, down, not say a word. Maybe I can find him, but, like, if I really can't, I can't hear anything or I don't know where he's gonna go. Depends on how big the bull is. I'm probably not gonna do much about it. Like, I'm probably still gonna, like, whatever if it's a stud bull and three scenarios if it's a stud bull and I see a pinch point happening, like if I can like look at this scenario three seconds and say oh, oh shit, they might like get than there's a play I would beat feet and go. Like that's the only time I beefy and go is like if I, if I foresee something about to happen which is, which has happened. Like I'm like, oh, they're going to go there and that's going to happen. And then like generally speaking, it's still getting into what I call striking distance. So at three miles there's nothing I can do about this. So I'm looking at to turn and saying like can I get within 300, maybe 500? Like that way if something does change, like we can make a move. But like let's, let's, let's let it play out. That's a term that people don't use enough. It's like, hey, let's, let's let this play out and see what happens. Like don't like here we are like rush things but then don't rush things. So not to complicate it, but I would say like let's let this unfold a little bit. If it's a shooter herd bowl and there's like, if there's satellites and whatever, it's like we know we're going to go after like that's our next target, right? We're just trying to kill a six point. We could kill a satellite. We kill herbal. Let's go get in striking distance and see how it plays out. I still like, all scenarios to me point to this is a midday attack, maybe even an evening attack. But like we have an elk. I would rather sit on the glassing knob and collect as much data as we can because so many things happen. Like say you see a herbal or a herd in a herd bowl and they cruise up into a basin. Like a lot of times you'll start to see satellites that you didn't see before, right? It's like, oh, there's another satellite, there's another satellite. And I've had that too. Like all the oak are following. So a lot of times what happens? And definitely an open country. But even in thick country, like herd goes up, they go up in the timber, right? And then all of a sudden like 20 minutes later you're like, oh, there's two or three, six points. Like what are they doing? And they're going up there too, right? And that, that intel Matters or I see another bull, right? Like, cruise up. Honestly, sometimes you see, like, herd goes up. Herd bull, like, starts acting like he's peeling off. Like he's, like, doing other things. He's not that interested. As they got closer to bed, that's really good intel, right? Like, that definitely happened. So don't just assume. Everything you see is like, all elk do this. Now. We're like, we're kicking ourselves here because I'm over complicating this. But, like, all the. All the data you can get matters and, like, understanding where they are, what they're doing, what the temperature is, what the variables are at play. Not to overcomplicate it, but, like, that it personally is what's going on.

But basically it's like, okay, in that scenario, just to recap, if they're way deep and you can't get there right away, it's like, watch where they go. Don't rush it.

That's number one is. I feel like a lot of guys run off the knob, like they're gonna catch them, and it's just like. And then, like, you get there and you're just like, oh, I don't. I don't know which. Did they go here? Did they go there? Like, take pictures, like, draw maps, Sit there with your Onx and be like, use your range finder thingy. Like, oh, I'm gonna drop a pin. Because most of you guys are getting it wrong. You're like, they're here and then you get over there and it's like, way different than it looked, right? Yeah. So, like, the more data and, like, more accuracy you could get of where they are. Like, generally speaking, that play, like, if you're not going to make it by, I don't know, them moving, say 8 or 7 or 8 or 9. Like, let's just midday play this. Like, let everything settle back down. And the reason you do that is because what happens, Elk moved to timber, to bed. There's a lot of chaos right then, and usually as the wind's switching anyway, thermals are moving. So, like, it just. If you can catch it right when they get to bed, you can kill it out sometimes. If you can't, I'd rather have solid afternoon thermals. You know, I'd rather, like, just hunt them in the evening, honestly, like, it's just safer, I would say.

Yeah, that's funny. That's kind of. That's exactly what my client, Jim and I did last year is like, we saw him way off and we bombed in after we saw where they were hanging out and bedding. Yeah, we bombed in, tried to call them in, didn't work. We backed out, got thermals right. And then went in and killed them in the evening.

That's a great play. Like back in, like if you can catch them in the chaos, great. If you can't, like, don't screw it up because like we know where they are and we know where they're going to go. Like, we have a lot of data right there.

So another really common scenario for you, you're hiking out a ridge, you got a mile and a half to get back to the truck. And it's like 30 minutes before dark. You hear a bull pipe off across the valley from you, across the drainage.

How many minutes before dark?

Let's say, let's give you an hour. Let's give you an hour before dark. And this is like, this is so common, dude. You're hiking out like kind of like.

Thinking, why are you hiking out with an hour left of daylight?

Well, good call. I mean that's the, that's kind of the point. Like you're just hiking at, you know, running ridges, bugling the last hour of daylight and you hear bull, like he's your 800 foot drop down, 800 foot climb up the other side and there's a bull bugling at your level across the drainage from you.

I'm full send. Like I think like that's a good time for me. Like hour. I don't. If I had 10 minutes left, I'm still full send.

Yeah.

So like, yeah, I would just say like we, we know where this bull is depending on if I'm not trying not to screw something up. But generally speaking, full send that scenario, what play we're going to go with depend man, so many variables. I would go, I probably slip in and either just try to set up a scenario, you know, like do full cows, calf light bugles, like try to call them over as I feel like is my gut intuition.

But basically you're like, you said full send is the, you've got 30 minutes, an hour, whatever. You got to get over there. You got to try something.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like worst case scenario. Because you know, the thing is, is like hopefully I don't screw it up if I do whatever. But like, or, or you know, we get the temperature raised and then at daylight we're back. So this, I'm thinking of this scenario in New Mexico when you're hiking out probably 20, 20 minutes for dark bull, like across this range, beagles. And I'm like, let's. Let's go. Like, I'll just take the roundabout way to go out of here. So, like, I'm trying to get there, trying to get there, and I'm like, you know, I probably called too much on the way to him in retrospect, but, like, he was not that hyped up. But I got super tight, and I was like, it's not going to happen. Like, it's getting dark and he's still hundreds of yards away. It's not going to happen. So then I start toning it back down and, like. Like, sounding smaller and smaller. And he sounded bigger and bigger. Like, the darker it got, the more. And so, like, I, like, then I'm, like, pushing him, and I'm working that tone up. I'm working that tone up. By the time, like, I worked my way back out 30 minutes after daylight, so I probably spent 30, 40 minutes in there messing with him. And I back out of there sounding smaller and smaller. He was getting more aggressive and more aggressive, more aggressive. I was like, oh, that bull's fired up now. Like, he's ready to go. I slipped back in almost the same spot I was standing. I. Before I went in, I bugled one time, like, locate bugle. And he boom. Instantaneously. I'm like, oh, he's hot. He's still there. So I slipped back in, and I was like, I just want to get super tight. And then try it again. Super tight, just cracking daylight. Still can't see quite. Here's the mistake. And I'm like, I'll crack one off. I crack one off. That bull was like, 80 yards away. Came crash flying in at me. I'm, like, trying to rain. I can't even see the rangefinder at this point. He goes, snap me like dog. He stands there, please get light. Please get light, please. You know, just like, you stand there, and then he starts barking at me. And I was like, too early? Yeah, but, you know, in theory, it worked. Got that bull super hot at night. I tried to call him in. No, like, not trying to deny that. It just didn't work. It wasn't soon enough. So then I switch. You're like, let's just see if we can get him all pissed off and then hunt him in the morning. So that's a great little tactic, right? It's like, oh, it's not going to work out. Like, let's, you know, see if we can raise the temperature. And so much of it is like, can we raise the temperature of this elk? You know, that Seems to be very true in that 10 to 15 timeframe. It's like sometimes they're just not hot, you know, like they just haven't got there yet. If you can raise the temperature, you make tomorrow easier. I mean, that's a.

That makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dude, that happened to me. That to a one year is like, I got in deep, like first thing first, like in the dark.

Yeah.

And there was a bull just going nuts. And I called him in like 10 minutes before shooting light.

I was like, God dang it. Too early. Too early. Yeah, you're just like antsy. Like, oh, it's kind of light and you know. Yeah. Like, in retrospect, you could spend, you know, 30 minutes trying to get that ball, you know, who knows how far away he is? So. Yeah, that's a, that's a good scenario. But I don't know. The evenings I like, seems to be pretty active. If I'm just trying to kill a six point, I could definitely call in a bull. They seem to be pretty active and.

It seems to happen just freaking fast. It happens really fast. I think a lot of people forget that. Like, you just need a couple minutes.

Yeah.

That's all you need.

Totally. I mean, if you can cover the ground, like, it could, it could. It only takes a second. And that's the thing you learn is like, man, you could go from like, I heard a bull to like, what just happened with a dead bull in like minutes, you know? So if you only have 20 minutes of daylight left, you know the other option, maybe you could say, like, work him up from afar. You know, test his temperature. Done that before.

Like, take a couple minutes, but not. You can't burn too much time working him up because then he's.

Yeah, because he might come over. I don't, I don't love working him up unless it's dark. Yeah. And even then, like, sometimes bulls will come in. Like, usually they're coming to you. You're like, oh, we gotta get out of here. Yeah, skedaddle. Yeah. I think that's kind of the downside of like calling at night or whatever. And like, you know, you can get a bull to move his temperature, but you don't want him to move his placement.

Yeah.

Which I think, honestly, if I had to guess is like, if a bull has cows, he's not coming. Right. But if he doesn't have cows, then he might. Yeah. So like, just for that.

All right, here's another one for you. You're hiking in on a big ridge and down below you A thousand feet is the main trail. And you see dudes walking in underneath you as you're running this ridge, trying to get a bull. Either glass them up, you're trying to glass or get one talking from the top of the ridge. And there's guys below you.

Oh, we're calling those guys to the top for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, Wait, go ahead.

No, no, no. I mean, that was like. Is your hunt. Is your hunt ruined?

I don't know.

Are you gonna leave that area?

No, not even remotely close. I won't say anything. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, it's a good question. So I don't have a bull. Do I know there's a bull in the area?

You know, like you've been hunting a herd that's in here, you know, and you're like, ah, dang, these guys are coming into this area.

Yeah, I know.

This happened to you like last year. You were saying you're on a glassing knob and you saw these dudes just march through underneath you. Oh, yeah.

And they set up like right next to me. They were like on the same range. I don't know that they ever saw me. I mean, I don't know if they. Yeah, you could argue they saw my truck, so whatever. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. Like, they set up and I was like, well, you know, now they know. So, like, it was just intel for the next day. I did bounce. Did I bounce? I don't know if I should say. That's where. Long story short, I did end up shooting a bull there, but it was like weeks later. But I think I bounced. I'm trying to remember. It was like, oh, someone else is here. That's a twofold thing. I didn't see a bull we're chasing. No, that's is. I was there the next day. I was actually on the knob that I ended up shooting near where I shot my bull. But it was. Yeah, that was the opening weekend versus, like October 6th. So a month later. Long story short, I was like, I didn't see any elk that were really worth my time. Now if I did. That's a good question. Like, if I was just trying to shoot a six point. I probably depends if you got other elk, man. Yeah, like, that's one of those questions. Like, you just got like, what's gut say? Because I left. I didn't see any shooters, but there's plenty of bulls in there. I think I was. I saw 14 bulls that day. So, like, there's a pile of elk in there and it was like weird too, because it wasn't like a herd and satellites. It was just like everywhere I looked, it was like these little group, like two cows here in a bowl, three cows here in a bowl. And like, with that said, there was a group of, I don't know, six, eight bulls. And I watched these guys run down in there and like bump them. Elk take off running and here comes the guys following them. And I'm like, the jig is up.

Yeah.

So I would probably. I'd say I'd probably leave. Would you leave?

Probably leave.

You saw other hunters? If I saw that's what they're doing.

Yeah. If they're just walking the crick bottom and they're bugling on their bugle tube, like, I consider them a non factor.

Like, yeah, that's fair. Like if they're. But if they're running around bumping elk.

You'Re like, yeah, I'm out. Okay, so that was you kind of taken over my last fire question here.

But did you just come up with these off the top or.

Yeah, this is just off my dome, dude. Okay, so here's the last one. You get in there, you're hunting this one basin. You blow the elk out in the evening. Are you coming back the next morning or are you gonna find new elk? Like, you call this bull in?

Smell me or hear me?

Let's just say he saw you, but he like, yeah.

You're out. No, I'm still hunting.

Oh, you're still hunting it.

I mean, honestly, like, I'm so different though, because like, I'm trying to think of this as 2, 1 if I'm 301. Hey, if I was hunting a bull, that means there's a shooter there.

Yeah.

And that means we're on the shooter until we're off the shooter. Like, that's, that's the target right now. So generally speaking, I'll answer it in both ways. So if it's 301 and I'm like, obviously this is a 350 plus bull. Whatever. Like we're gonna. We're haunting them. I'm there until it's not there. Right. Like, until, like we'd have to blow this thing out of there. So I definitely need to come back. I may depending on where they went, how they acted, like there's a whole bunch of questions there. But like, roughly speaking, maybe I start scoot back a little bit and just try to figure out big picture again. Yeah. So like generally what happens? Like, we're starting big picture, we're Narrowing in on a, on a shooter and we're getting close and I would probably have to spend that night figuring that out. Like, ideally, I'm trying to like, okay, did the herd, where the herd go, do they seem like very spooked? Did they continue back to that feed bed pattern or not? And if so, then I could probably hunt him the next day if you just saw me, which is, you know, likely, like he's the lead cow, is going to continue the same route routine. With that said, maybe not. So like if, if I couldn't find him that night, then it's like, start back, scoot back to 30,000 foot view, then we'll come back in again. We gotta find them. If it's 201 and I'm like, I just want to shoot a six point, I. Generally speaking, those elk don't. Not all the elk in that area are gonna know what happened. So there's probably like a good chance that things are f fine. I've screwed up a lot of elk that stayed right where they were or went back to where they were. So I wouldn't overthink it. I would just be like, blew that one up, you know, You. I don't know, what's your thought on like letting it rest? We used to like, be like, oh, let this, let those elk calm down a day or two. I don't know if that ever really did anything.

I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it ever did anything. Especially if they're reading like, and they just see you like they're right there.

I do think elite cows get spooky. And I think back to the Idaho days. Like by the end of Idaho season, the lead cow is. She's a spooky bitch. That's what you're fighting with. And so. But I don't know that they ever calm back down. Like, it just progressively gets worse throughout the season. Yeah. And it's not like a lead cow. Yeah, they're on edge. Right. Like every time I bump the bump the herd, that lead cow gets a little smarter, A little smarter, a little more wary. I don't think the bull has a clue what's going on. I think he's following.

Dude, I, I agree with you though. Like, a couple years ago, this happened two years in a row. One was me wounding a bull and the other one was my client. But like the first year I wounded a bull and I went right back to where they were feeding the next morning, and he's right there running cows. Same exact. I'm like, not only did he see me, he had an arrow in his shoulder. Yeah.

Like, he.

And he is. The take was up, but he is right back there where he was.

Yeah. And.

And then last year, same thing.

I think it's like, did the cow bust you or he bust you? There was a calf. Like, I don't think it totally matters. Like, yeah, if lead count bus you, I feel like that can really put a damper on the parade. Like, it just is what it is. Like, we just made it a little bit harder to kill those out. She's going to be a little bit more spooky. But generally speaking, I think they go right there. Now, if it's the 22nd of September and she's already been bumped, like, by everyone every weekend of the season, sure, she might just piece out a whole new area. A lot of variables there. But, like, generally speaking, you can bump elk a few times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think people forget that, though, is they'll be like, ah, we screwed it up. Now we gotta go, you know. Yeah, this is no good anymore.

Yeah. I do also think that, like, some people I don't know that I would hunt, like, the same hurt all season. Reason like, this is why I like to have options, right? It's like if you're. If you're the kind of guy that's just got like, oh, I know where this herd of elk is. And like, every day you're getting close, but you're bumping them and, like, screwing it up, maybe then, like, letting it rest a little bit is a good idea. It's like having multiple options is pretty good because if you're bumping them every day, they just get so spooky that you aren't. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell. Right? Like, just like you're. You're playing. You're playing the game on expert mode. And, like, there's easier. You could go to beginner level to some areas, right. Like, you're playing the game on expert mode. It's like everything got harder.

It's kind of goes back to that. Like, you might even just need the freaking stress relief for your own mental game. Like, just be like, do this freaking sucks. I can't get these out killed. Like, let's go.

Reset. The other thing. Like that makes me think about that. Or the other thing that makes me think of in that scenario is like, if you're hunting satellites, which totally fine. Like, it's a great, great thing. I have watched satellites fully change out, like, and I Have no idea why, but it'd be like, okay, here's the herbal, here's the herd. And I saw these three six points the next day. It was totally different for six points. And you're like, I was weird. Like, whatever. I, I think sometimes these satellites just like cover ground, you know, they're like.

Yeah, just go on a walk.

They don't walk about. I've watched that. I mean, I've watched her bulls do the same. The whole herds change. So, like, just because a group of cows, you know, just because maybe you bumped a satellite, just like, dude, tomorrow the satellite could have no idea what's going on, right? So if you're into just shooting elk, like, it's a good reason to let the herd set. Because a lot of times you get new bulls. And I think that's very true. Even in timber country, like, I don't know, hunt Idaho or, I don't know, the crazies or the canyon. Like, dude, satellites are on walkabouts. Like they're, you know, teenage boys trying, 20 year old boys trying to figure out their life and they're just cruising, right? And so a lot of times you just have these bulls that just show up, right? And like, it's great off. It's a great time to like, you know, call them in.

Dude. No, that's good. That's really good. Okay, so let's say you're four days into a ten day hunt. Five days into a ten day hunt. So you're at halftime. Yeah. Do you ever just like, do you ever just like change up what you're doing just because you're tired of the same game plan? Like, how do you keep your head in the game?

My head's always in the game. Like, that's a. Yeah, that's a tough one to be.

Like, that's the right answer. That's the right. That's the right answer is like, you just have more consistency.

I have the proof of years, which a lot of people don't have. So I've been through all the struggles. Like, I've screwed it up. It's like, to me, I will say this, like, it probably comes closer, like day 20 or something like that for me, where it's like, all right, shake it off, take a break. I do think that's a real thing. If I only had a 10 day hunt. We're not, we're not getting tired on day five. Like, we're, we're just still in grind mode. But like, I'll call, like, I'll call like, for sure. There's day, whatever, 20 and I'm like, not going good. Like, take a break, walk away, go home, hang out with the kids. I have that luxury. Most people don't like where it's like, oh, I don't want to hunt on the weekend. So like, I'll come back Monday when everyone else is done. Like that happens quite a bit. Like, if I'm really honest, it's like I don't love. I mean grinding 30 days is a real chore. Like, that's probably not a realistic thing. I'm gonna be a better hunter and a more efficient hunter if I take a couple weekends off. And so if I can hunt all week and then it's like, I got my ass kicked. Nothing's going right. Everything's gone. It's like, dude, take two days or take a day, whatever it is.

Yeah, go grab it.

I didn't tell her. It's like the sexy answer, but like, yeah, most hunts that's not happening on, that's usually like a home state hunt where I'm, you know, driving back and forth a lot. You know, when you and I go to Wyoming and say we go down for 10 days, there's no breaks, there's no, no, we're grinding like, yeah, you got 10 days, you're grinding through it like so. But if you're like hunting your home state and it's like it's a 30 day season, like, take a break, don't be taking too many breaks. Like you gotta, you gotta grind through the hurt a little bit. But at the same time, if you're 20 days in and just like got your ass kicked or whatever, it's like, ah, head to town. Yeah, yeah. I was like, grab a burger.

It's kind of funny for people who have like home state elk hunts. I know, like sometimes people are just like, dude, I only have so much vacation, so I'm gonna just take one day off a week and like hunt three days, you know, every week. Yeah, and that's tough. It's so tough, my brother, actually, because I like doing that and I'll do a bunch of half days or whatever. And my brother, after doing that a couple years was like, dude, I'm just gonna take a week and just go the whole week and just burn the candle at both ends for a week.

That's a great question. So would you rather have three day weekends all September or one solid week?

Oh, man, I've killed a lot of critters doing like half days then like weekend stuff. But that's more of a situation because that's what I was dealing with.

Right.

And I wasn't going to stay at home. But dude, one week. It's hard not to. I say that my buddy Hayden and I hunted our asses off for like two weeks straight last year and didn't kill.

Yeah. I mean, definitely a week's not very long. Ah, I don't know. Like, okay. The upside would be if I hunt all for one week, there's compounding, learning. And when you hunt every weekend, there's not compound. It's like you're starting from scratch. Yeah. But you're hitting various points in the season. So from that perspective, I don't know, flip a coin. Yeah, I, I could see it both ways. Dude.

It was hard. It was hard for us because like, as we, as the season, we had this two week chunk in September and we were watching things change as time went on, which was kind of. Maybe this is helpful for somebody in the beginning. Do we were covered up enough. We were stocking bulls and like. Yeah, we had a lot of opportunities on bulls early because we were spotting, stocking, and then once they, they disappeared to find herds and we're like, oh, what the hell?

It's like completely different hunting.

And then we started figuring out and then again, like two days after I left, or maybe it was, yeah, two days after I left, one buddy killed a bull and another four days after that, Hayden killed a bull. And I was like, oh, well, yeah.

What do you think the percentage of elk hunters is that hunts just like weekend hunters versus like one week hunters. So you like. I think the top 1%. I'll tell you this, top 1% only hunt weekdays and take the weekends off. Yes. All season. 100. That's like expert level. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. Like Brian Barney or like.

Yeah, you know, Sean Lucas.

All those guys are like, they're hunting the weeks.

Yeah, they're hunting the weeks. And then I go home on the weekends.

Yeah, I think that's, I think the average person is just hitting it Friday night, Saturday, Sunday, and then it's home Sunday night.

What do you think? Do you think that has an impact on like success rates?

Just got to.

I mean, like, is it causation? Correlation is the question is like, because like on weekends and still going up.

It's true. But like on the weekends, like there's some spots like around Lander that I've hunted a lot that like midweek I'll go up after work or whatever and it's fire and I come in on the weekend, and you're just like, God dang it, dude. Like, I was just in Bulls here, like, two days ago, and now it's just covered up in people.

Yeah. I've had areas that for sure, where it's like, dude, I don't even want to be here on the weekends. It just gets loaded with people. The only downside is, like, I do feel like the times where I leave Friday and come back Monday, it's like a whole new planet. Like, start over and, like, takes you a day or two to figure it out because you're like, dude, what you guys do this weekend? Everything's gone.

Dude. And actually, so I've talked about this before, but, like, I talk about with all my clients is I use these fishing hole pins, and it's kind of like matching the hatch, right? Like, with your. With your game plans. Because efficient hole can be freaking good on a Wednesday and it can be dead on a Sunday. Yeah.

There's a lot of truth to that. Right? Like, it's like, yeah. I mean, everyone comes in. I'll think about that, too. Is like, you know, especially you find a big bowl. And I got screwed on this once before where it's like, I wasn't really paying attention to what day it was, and I was like, I'm just gonna, like, watch this bowl till it gets good. Right? And it was like the weekend hit and, like, you know, you felt like you had to place yourself the last five days, and all of a sudden it's like, there's people everywhere or like, oh, shit, it's Saturday. God damn it.

Yeah.

You know, like, just forgot about that.

Yeah. And for guys coming out from back east or whatever, like, I'm actually talking about this when we're planning stuff and something we should probably talk about with Wyoming is what day.

What day is the opener on?

Is it a Friday? I think it might be a Friday.

It is October 1st. What is it? I don't remember.

Dude, you're giving away where we're going saying this and talking about the opener. Just kidding. October 1st is a Wednesday this year, Andy.

Well, I was gonna say that, too, when you're talking about non residents, like, if I could. I mean, it's just time off, but, like, ideally, not getting. Everyone tries to go, what, Friday to Sunday, you know, I mean, like, with a. You know, so it's two weekends in a week. I was like, dude, the two weekends suck. I'd rather go Monday to Wednesday, if that makes sense.

Yeah. No, I agree.

But I agree, everyone else that's More day. Like, I get, like, if you have a real job, that's like, more days.

Yeah, but I mean, it's something that we kind of talked about is like, we built this game plan around where's the pressure gonna push elk. But if there's no pressure, then we kind of have to make an adjustment and vice versa.

No pressure. I feel like when you get to rifle, it's like openers. Opener. Openers of religion.

That's probably. Yeah, that's probably the case. Yeah. And people just hunt Wednesday through that next Sunday, just like we're doing.

Yeah. With that said, I feel like you can back math to see when people leave. So, like, even when you have a Wednesday rifle opener, like, people aren't like. So you're like, almost everyone's gonna be gone by the next Friday. Like, place to yourself. Oh, yeah. Because then you have like, some later hunters. So, like, no one's choosing the second week of season. No one's choosing the second.

It's my favorite time to hunt pronghorn in Wyoming. It's the second week of this.

Yeah. Because everyone burns their time and then like, they're gone.

And they're gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's kind of like the whole October thing for archery in Montana is like, everyone burns their time and then a piece out.

And they're out. Yeah. And the fishing holes get good again.

Fish holes? Yeah.

No, this is good, man. Hopefully we haven't added more confusion to anybody. But it's basically like, okay, so recap the whole point of all this. Like, for someone who's got information overload.

Don'T listen to podcasts and get information overload like you just did.

Yeah.

I would say keep it simple. Develop a system. I'm really big on systems. Find two or three lures that you like. Learn how to, you know, master those lures. Treat hunting spots like, you know, fishing holes. Like, sometimes they're good, sometimes they're not. Learn to get really good at finding new fishing holes, like finding areas, finding elk. That's, I would say, my three key takeaways.

What's yours? I like it. No, I, I like, I just come up with this earlier today. I was like, I like the idea of, like, if you're gonna. You're gonna make mistakes, you better make them at a million miles an hour.

Like that.

Yeah, I think that's, that's kind of like a driving factor. Because anyone who sits back and tries to let things happen to them is probably going to half ass everything. Like, you can't do that when it comes to elk hunting, I think another.

Good takeaway would be like, I love this concept of like play long term games with long term friends. And I look at elk hunting is like, am I going to be successful this year? Maybe, maybe not. But do I want to be a great elk hunter in 20 years from now? You know what I mean? So make decisions based on that and build your gut intuition. So like people struggle to go to new spots because they might not be successful, but the greatest skill you can have as an elk hunter is being able to like, great at finding elk, right? Like be good at finding new spots. And I, I took a lot of Ls over the years, but like in a long term that created a great elk hunter that can like figure it out for me. Scouting.

Yeah.

Play long term games.

Do I love it? That's, it's funny because this guy goes the other day, he goes, man, I'm really excited because then I'll have like long term plans for this unit. Like, I'll know where I can go. And I was like, until a fire rips through there.

Yeah.

And then you got to start over. And like that's one of the things that's always seems like a constant if you're building the skills to figure out new spots, dude.

Yeah, it doesn't matter. See the thing like when I look at like what you're doing with Hunt west and like people paying you to help them escout is you're getting the skill. Like, that's the most powerful skill. Like in my opinion, James Nash would argue with you, but I will argue the other way that like e scouting is the most powerful skill because like I can just go find new areas and like I'm more efficient and more, I think, you know, say I spend the time with you and I'm like, oh, that's how you like figure this out, right? Like now you have a skill that you can use every single year for multiple years. Like that to me is like way more powerful.

And especially if you're not hunting Montana and Wyoming, can't get a tag in Idaho. Like you, you just have to have a rotation and like you're forced, like, especially as non resident hunter, you're forced to learn new spots every year. Like, it's just, it's just the only way. Now people like will gripe about it. They're like, oh, I can't hunt over the counter in Colorado this year. And I'm like, that's just the game we're playing. And whether you.

Yeah, you can pitch about the game or you can just play the game as it is.

Yeah, exactly. That's just be a better. Be a better player on the board, man.

Dude. 100, I think. Yeah. Like it the days of like, oh, I have my elk hunting spot and we go get an elk every year. I don't know if they ever were that great. But like, I think it's. I don't know, I just.

It'd be awfully hard unless you've got some private ground.

Yeah. That kind of even. I mean like that shit changes just too. Yeah. That's why I would be struggled to have a lease because it'd be like, what's going to be there? Like, I don't know, like I can only have this one spot.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Well, hopefully we've helped some people not overthink this year.

Cheers, mate.

Later.

Happy. Okay. Alrighty, guys. Thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100% free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes. Or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.