Cody Rich Gives the Montana Playbook for Deer and Elk

Foreign. To the Hunt west podcast. Here's your host, Jaden Bales.

But, yeah, do I need.

I don't need to prep you for anything. All right.

It's a bold statement.

Are we recording?

Yeah.

Oh, hell yeah. All right. Welcome to the Hot west podcast. I don't do long intros and everyone knows who you are. So, Cody Rich, thanks for hopping on.

Thanks for having me, buddy. Yeah, you bet. Dude jokes on you. You're on my podcast now.

Yeah, exactly, dude. I'm stoked. I'm headed to Argentina in a couple days.

I'm so excited.

Yeah, I'm cranking a bunch of these out so people won't listen to this until like, few weeks out.

But are you gonna record podcasts down there too?

I'm sure, yeah, we'll do some probably following this whole series. We did Colorado. Well, we did Wyoming series because I knew a lot about that. Got guys on talking Wyoming and then we did Colorado. Got guys on talking about Colorado, and now we're doing this Montana series, so.

Oh, Montana series. So we're like, what are we talking about? You said you didn't have to prep me. Okay. Just give me like 30,000 foot view, ready to go. What are we talking about?

I'm just going to. I want to get your opinion on how Montana fits in the whole scheme of things. And that's not because I'm good at.

Tech strategy or like, yeah, tag strategy.

And also just like what people can expect. Right. Because Montana is now one of the easiest tags to draw.

That's wild when you think about it.

It didn't. I feel like that that script has flipped in the last like four years, five years.

Yeah. I mean, it's always kind of been like an every other year thing. But yeah, honestly, you can probably get every year.

Do you. Do you see like so much hype around Montana from a non resin perspective that's going to change much in the next couple years?

I don't think so.

There just seems like there's enough tags and enough people in this complicated system that or. And few enough people in the complicated system that it moves through. Guys.

Well, the reason I say I, I don't think so is because I, I don't. I don't know that we fully grasp the consequences of Colorado. And I think that it's hard to say because, like, when you look at it from one side, you're like, honestly, the numbers aren't changing that much. It's just going draw. Right? Like, so people want to say like, oh, Colorado's not over the counter anymore. So then they assume it's going to be like a three year draw. I don't know that that's going to be the case looking at the tag numbers. So initially you're like, oh, there's no more otc. Which then therefore would mean that Montana becomes, you know, a three year draw or like it turns into Wyoming. Right. But I just, I don't, I don't know, it's hard to say and I like who knows? But I, my gut says probably not. And I think Montana's hard enough and people come here and strike out enough that like it's not, it's just not the other states, you know. Do you think it's like a little bit tougher to hunt from a, maybe a logistics standpoint but like also just it's a tougher hunt. Like it's a different, it's a whole different beast. And I had a conversation, shout out to Andrew from yesterday. He was like, hey, Colorado coming to Montana, what to expect, blah, blah, blah. So it's like very top of mind for me. But I do think you Colorado guy, he comes to, to Montana, right? And it's just like private's a deal here. It's, it's a deal in other places too. But like man, the elk hold up on private here. And then like you have these, you know, it's just a little bit harder, right? It's a little like the elk act a little different. They go a little farther like I, I, yeah, it's just, it's a little bit tougher. And then you add the G bear thing, you add, you know, the people thing, the access thing. Like I do think it's a little bit tougher. I, and I can't say for sure because I do know like I haven't spent a ton of time in Colorado, but from what I've heard or understand, for the most part elk in Colorado are just really quiet, right? They're like, they're hush, they're shut up. There's a lot of kind of just hold up country if you will. Like Montana doesn't have that hold up country. So all the elk in Colorado are in public. They're just really tough to hunt. And there's still a lot of people but like it's fairly spread out. And I know someone's like, but I, I really think it's more spread out than Montana. And so like you have Montana is this like gosh. And there's so many different types of hunts. I'm like, we're kind of getting in the weeds here.

But like, like, that's part of the problem though is are so many different types of hinds, right?

And there's like. So I'm really trying to like, categorize all of like the areas in my head of like how Montana fits, which is a whole other beast we could get into. But to finish the thought that I had a second ago, it's just like Montana's more pockety. It's more issues with private elk. Like to hold up on private. There's big ranches, there's like, there's that problem. So you're like, it's always. I don't want to say it's a hustle game in all of Montana, but gosh dang, a lot of it is a hustle game. Like we're, we're guys are killing them and that's just. It's a totally different problem than Colorado. So if you go, if you're like, man, I got really good at hunting Colorado. I know how to hunt these elk in places people don't want to hunt them. I know how to kill them when they don't talk. Like, that was like, if you were a good air quotes hunter in Colorado, that's what you were good at. It's a different skill set, different beast than, than Montana, right? That's. If I had to compare the two.

I mean, honestly, like, that was something I would spend a lot of time thinking about it. It's like, it feels like you can go anywhere and like have this playbook, right? Like the 101, 201, 301 levels like that you and I have talked about for years now. And you could apply them in any state. But what you're saying is Montana, you got to put a little English on it. Like you got a little.

It's like you kind of gotta. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. You gotta almost lean a little heavier.301, right? And the 301 guys are actually more successful. How do I, how do I explain that better? I think, put it your way, Montana is a very difficult one on one state. Like you're just going to strike out. And I think that's why it stays where it is, right? Because there's one on one hunters come here and it kind of sucks. Like it's not that great, right? Like it's like it wasn't the experience. They thought 201 guys, the 201 guy. So my kid Wade's pretty good at math right now. And like, I Forget the book. But there's a classic study of, like, once you become good at a topic, you lean into that topic. The average 201 guy finds a thing that works in a place and then rinses and repeats and that. That's fine. That's a good way to get more at bats. To get good, right? The problem is, is unless you, like, became a 201 guy in Montana. You go to Montana and it's different, right? Your 201 needs some English. Like, you need to, like, you got to stretch into the 301, right? Like, you got to change the tactics a little bit. The PlayBook, the 201 standard issue SOP PlayBook did. Doesn't work the same. Now, there's a bunch of caveats to that, right? So where you go. And I think there's a lot of guys, the conversation I had last night on a, you know, consult or whatever, here's what we do in other places. Trying to rinse and repeat in Montana, some truth to that. It could work, but there's also some problems with it. It can work and. But you need to, like, understand that you're gonna have to put some English on it, right? Like, and so if you take the same 201 playbook that's worked for you and insert home state, Colorado, Oregon, New Mexico, Arizona, and you go to Montana, like, it works if you choose the right areas, if you're thoughtful. But I also think you got to add some tools to the tool chest a little bit.

So basically you're like the example being, man, I know how to go and, you know, call in Elkin, some thick stuff in Idaho or whatever. You got to come over here and then be like, I can call and I'm going to use that as maybe your base. But then you got to be like, okay, then nothing's happening.

I got, yeah, I got a couple more ground. Or I gotta put. I gotta. I gotta do a little more hustle game where I'm not used to or like, you know, like it. And it will work. Like, if you're a good Idaho 200, 100, you can come to Montana. You, you know, you're gonna have to figure it out. It's gonna be a new area and there's gonna be. It's like, slight twist. I'm not saying you got to change your entire game and start, like, only hunting open country and glassing. Like, it's definitely not the case. Like, I think if you're a good Idaho hunter and you're consistently killing elk, you can come to Montana and you can, you know, I said you can't rinse and repeat. You can. You can use the same, you know, what, you know, right? And then. But just trying to expand on it. And I think that's where it comes into, like, you know, I know a lot of people. The private thing, right? Like, so if. If you hunt Idaho and you're like, here's my. Here's my normal routine and it works, but like, I've never really had to deal with that whole private issue. So I'm going to go to Montana in a place where I don't have that private issue like, that you may not get elk, right? Like, you're not getting enough at bats. Whereas, like, the place you need to get the at bats is, you know, just like those elk, these elk like to hang up on private. So now I got like, I just gotta add the hustle piece, right? Yeah, I gotta add the hustle piece. But it's everything I knew before. So it's like not a huge shift, I think. Yeah. So I think if you're a good 200, 100, you can do it. I think you can. The cool thing about Montana is you can kind of make it whatever you want. I talk to Garsh, can't remember name. We'll just go with Jeffrey. I talked to Jeffrey and it. He was like, you know, this is what's worked for me. Oh, he was a mule deer hunter. And he's like, you know, but like, the elk hunting had done was more collie, timbery type stuff. And he's like, I'm thinking about going here because that's what I know. But like, eventually I want to be a 301 hunter. I'm like, well, dude, if you want to, like, if that's the skill set you have, then go do that thing. And I like, I did that so very much. Very successful 201 caller guy. I moved to Montana. I didn't go be the successful 201 caller guy. I got punched in the face for three or four years trying to hunt open country because that's the skill I wanted to learn. It was like, oh, want to kill big bulls? All my friends that kill big bulls do it in this type of terrain. Right. I need to learn that. Are you going to get punched in the face a couple years? Yeah. Sucks. It's a learning curve, but it's another skill set. That's how you build the skill set. I'm just big on, like, building your skill set and like, challenging yourself with new things. New places, trying to figure it out. Right. Like, yeah. You know, if you're really good at math and all you focus on is math and you'll never, you know, kind of excel at the other skills.

That makes sense. So, like, I've got this spot that I like to hunt in Wyoming where, like, it's a half mile off the road and there's elk that flirt with this private public boundary. It feels like. And this is a question, it feels like in Montana you'll find that. But it's. Instead of a half mile and 500ft, it's like two and a half miles back. Or like. Like a bigger. It's just bigger.

It is. But yeah. Yes. I mean, like, you could have the thing you have that exists. I always get really nervous about, like, when you find the secret place.

Right?

Yeah. Like, you know, it's not going to last. Like, just. Just assume it's not going to last forever. And I think, dude, that's an entire conversation. Yes, you're right. Most of the time it could be bigger or farther or, like, you know, whatever. In my. In my experience.

Right.

I don't have all the experience in Montana. Also, big caveat.

Like, I. Yeah, but you also, like, that's one of the beauties of Montana is if you draw a tag, like a permit tag, then you can also still hunt general.

So it's like you're getting can't.

Not in all those anymore.

No, you actually can't. That's a huge thing.

Okay.

Huge issue is, you know, you used to change. Yeah.

Okay.

Last year maybe. Or four. If you draw a permit, you can't hunt general. You can hunt general rifle.

That's what I mean.

You can't hunt general. Okay. So you do have the fallback of rifle. Before. Back in my day, you used to, like, draw the Whatever permit. Say I drew 417. I can hunt 417. Or I could, you know, go to the wilderness and hunt the wilderness, too. Like on the general site. Because, like, technically, before you had a general tag, and then, like, you got a special permit on top of it. So the tag you carried was still a general. It was just like, the permit was access to this, but you could also still access in general. Yeah. Now you draw a permit, you're not allowed to hunt anywhere else. Remember the conversation about the unit we talked about for deer? And I was like, that, yeah, that be problem. That'd be problem for elk, too. So, like, that kind of a little.

But then. Well, I mean, this is one of the frustrating things about Montana is like, there's a lot of. It's more complicated than some of the other.

You think so?

Oh, dude, I think it's the most complicated, especially for non residents and trying to draw. But. Okay, so your point being though that like you draw a permit and you go to this place and then you're like stuck learning that spot.

Right, right.

So when you're looking at like you've had this debate a lot. Like when you're looking at Montana, a lot of guys I've talked to are like, yeah, I've got so many bonus points. I'm thinking about drawing and I'm like, well, first you got to get the general.

Yeah.

And then you can do that. But is it even worth it? Would you rather just, just pound the general back to back to back?

I mean it's a changes, changes, advice, changes for who you are and what you want to do.

So what if you're like your three year strategy.

Is it three years? Like what's.

Okay, you're just trying.

So many variables, dude.

I mean. Okay, so hear me, hear me out, hear me out. This is like, this is the guy I talk to the vast majority of the time.

Oh, Jeffrey, Jeffrey.

Yeah, that guy. So he's trying to go as much as, as much as possible, but let's just say it's every three years because then he's got other states he's trying to sprinkle in.

Right.

Every three years he's going, wants to go hunt a tag and then he's like, well maybe on this, you know, sixth year, second time to Montana. I've got enough bonus points, I can go try something different.

Yep.

Would you rather just pound the same general stuff over and over and learn it or would you want to sprinkle in some of those extra opportunities?

Depends on what Jeffrey wants to be when he grows up. But I was like, okay, first caveat is insider knowledge trumps all. Everything.

Yeah.

So and we've talked about this before, like if, if you know, Joe Blow has this area and it's good or used to be good. Hell, if it was good in the 80s, I still like would take that info over anything. The next piece is like, do you have a buddy that hunts there? Like generally speaking, someone ends up in the draw units because somebody else, they know whatever did that, which is good. And I like from that perspective. Yes. Like I think if you on your roadmap you said I'm going to get the general, but then I'm going to save up for this three point unit or Whatever it may be.

Sure.

I don't know, like, it kind of depends what you want to do when you grow up. Like, like I would say most of the draws. When I think about the draws, I think east side open country and the thing you have to understand about east side open country is schedule 20 days. I think that's a good rule of thumb of like these open country units are not. And I, I, someone can correct me here, but like I just don't see them as like five to seven day hunts. You know, I think they're very difficult. I think they're time consuming because they're.

Just like not accessible every day.

Yeah, it just, gosh, it takes a long time, right? Like it just, it takes time to figure out you're just not going to go there and if, and you know, maybe like. But if I, if I only had five days, I don't think I would do it that way. Okay. But with that said, gosh, I think Montana, I think the, a lot of the reason it's, people struggle with the one on one is like, it just takes more days here. I don't know if that's cuz elk are more spread out or like, you know, it's just difficult. I think about a lot of places I've hunted in Idaho and it's just like, man, I feel like I was in elk every day and, and I don't know that I could say that about Montana. Anywhere I've been one time, one place, I won't name the place, but that also is a whole other event to get to. But my point being I think depends on where you're at. So if you're a two in one guy, you're focusing on at bats, you're building that strategy. You know, there's a, a learning period. Right. So if you're like I want to be a great elk hunter when I grow up, then focus on at bats. Getting at bats, right? If you, but if you're like, man, I really want to be an open country hunter and I want to like hunt big bulls, then, then do that, like go practice that. Cause it's going to take some time. It's the same concept as like I'm going to go elk hunting someday, so I'm going to save up all my points and never elk hunt. And then one year I'm going to draw this great tag and I will, I will go on a great hunt and it'll be so easy. We laugh at that. Right. But I think the same is true if you're like, well, someday I want to kill a big bull in open country. And that's like the dream. Well then go do that, right? Like practice that. And you can, you can do other hunts to get at bats and things like that or like focus on other skills. But like, to me it's like, okay, what's the long term plan? You want to do that? Great, go do it. Go fail at it. Like, you could go hunt 700, right? And like that's, you can get that tag every couple years. And that's a good, that's a good tag. Like you're going to learn the skill, right? Like, and there's plenty of out there. I mean any of the seven hundreds, like, go, just go do them, try to figure them out.

I've actually talked to a lot of guys about going hunting spikes and cows down there because they're like, well, it's, you know, there's a lot of elk and etc. It's a lot easier country. I'm like, yeah, so what? That's what they, that's what they keep. That's, that's what's on the Internet. Just.

Yeah, you're wondering, dude, I funny story about that. This guy one time, I won't name the unit, but I'm hunting a unit. This dude's got a cow tag and he's from Minnesota. I think he was like, it's like, man, I just got this cow tag. Like, oh, he did have a bull tag or something. It was guided, but he had the cow. He had a, you know, whatever. Cow tag. Yeah. And did. He did not see an elk. Like, he was like, the irony is like, I'm sitting at this camp, I was on a 360 bull within a half mile of said tent. And so I'm like, really just hoping that as we're talking, no one says anything like just, you know, it's middle of the day, whatever. And this guy is going off on how there's no elk whatsoever and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I don't know if it's like a product of like you go cow hunting, you expect it to be a certain way, you know, Like, I don't know that cow and spike. I mean cow and spike hunting would be very difficult in those open countries.

I think it's.

I like, they're all like, it's very difficult spot and stock. You know, like, you think about it like, I tell people to go to Utah all the time, hunt cows and spikes, learn. Because you're just, you're learning the skill of like dogging a herd, trying to get hurt. I mean, you want to learn a skill. You could do that. I guess. Like, it's going to be super pretty difficult, but I guess if you focus on. On the skill. Yeah, I mean, you're not wrong, now that I think about it, but.

Well, I guess this is.

This is like.

This is the worst part about people listening to you on a podcast is like, you're like, I like the open country. Like, that's where the big bulls are, et cetera, et cetera. But then people don't have. They don't put themselves into your situation.

Like, yeah, you don't have 30 days. No, I'm not that great of a hunter. I just have a long time.

And, yeah, you're going out there, like, in the summer and figuring out you're dropping trail cameras and doing the thing. Years. Years. Yeah, that's like, I. And I keep. You know, we talked about this on an earlier podcast. Somebody contacted me and was like, should I, you know, drive seven hours to the east side of the state and hunt that more regularly, or do I hunt outside of my house, like, in the northwest corner?

And I was like, that's a great question. I remember this question.

So here's the update. I had him. I was like, let's just go.

What was your answer?

I was like, have you looked at all the bull, like, bulls on the winter range, like, in the places you like to hunt? And he was like, no, I've never really thought about doing that. So I was like, go look at bulls on the winter range and then come back to me, like. And so he just texted me the other day. He'd been out a couple times looking for bulls. And he was like, dude, they're one. He found out. He was like, dude, they're right where I was chasing them in rifle season. He's like, I just was seeing them from three miles back instead of trying to kill him. Right. I was like, nice, good. That's good intel. But then on top of that, he was like, yeah, I think I'm just going to keep hunting this. I was like, yeah, man. I mean, once you figure out where the things are in your backyard, it really opens your eyes to, like, understanding where you should be in the.

I think that's a great predicament. And I would say. And I told you, and I've told many people this about Washington. Like, people will be like, hunt this XYZ in Washington. Like, how do I become a better elk hunter? I'm like, become a better elk hunter by Leaving the state of Washington, like, with, with a few exceptions, like, there's some big bulls there, but like, your at bats are very low. So I go back and forth is. It's quite the conundrum. Conundrum. Because like, you know, it's, it's, it's at bats, verse repetitions. Which is to say, like, if you're not. It's easy for me to say because I will just neglect all responsibility of a human and just go into the woods for extended amounts of time. So I get like, to me it's like I'd rather drive 5 hours, 10 hours, whatever, and get twice as the at bats. Now, if you have a better, more straighter moral compass than I do, and you're like all these responsibilities that you have or should do and you're like, well, the opportunity, I'll get more repetitions if I'm closer. Right. Because I mean, that's a real thing. Like, if you have to drive 12 hours to hunting camp, you're probably only going to get to go, you know, once or twice. So like, I think it's a personal, like, thing. How, how often are you going to get it go? So the at bats may be less, but the repetitions are more. So, you know, net net, it's about equal. Right? Yeah.

So you were just on that podcast with Brad Lund and I like that one. I was good. He's a good guy. And you guys are talking about how.

Like, he's like little Zach Brian, by the way, he looks like.

Yes, he does. Looked him up on the gram. That's so true. But what you were, you were talking about how, like, you know, hunting the thick stuff and like hunting these really crappy hunts, whether it's like north Idaho or western Oregon, like, make you a better hunter.

Totally.

But you're saying that's probably because you got like so many days.

Yeah.

You just put days in, like.

Yeah. Brute force, repetition, you know, at bats by repetition. Right.

Like.

So, I mean. Yeah. What's the, what would be the baseball analogy? Like, you know, if you play a hundred games, like, you're gonna get more at bats, like, either way. Yeah, that's kind of how it is. I don't know. So I think that it's, it's. You gotta measure your own. Like, how are you gonna get more iPads? I, I do think, you know, there's compounding effects of hunting the same place. I think you can compound bad habits or bad areas.

Like.

Right. So like, if I fight. Only hunted where I grew up in Oregon, where I grew up, there's big bulls, like, right next to my house, right? And, like, that was one of the upsides is, like, I could do that.

And are you talking big Roosevelts or.

Big Roosevelts?

Okay.

Like, yeah, like, 380 Roosevelts. 350 Roosevelts. Like, I remember I had been gone a very long time, but when I left, I could probably tell you where three different 350 Roosevelts were. That's saying something. That's like saying 400 bulls here, right? Maybe 420. But I would say.

The.

The at bats were not great, but the repetition was super strong because it was like, you know, there's compounding. Like, I knew my grandpa hunted the same spots, my dad hunted spots. So, like, I knew the canyons that historically held bulls. I, like, I knew everything about it, so. And I could hunt it every day.

Yeah.

Granted, you know, getting into one Roosevelt a day would be like, you know, huge. And so if I would have stayed there, sure, I'd be a great at that. So you kind of have to, like, push yourself. What's the next level? Right? What is, like, what do I want to push myself? And like, that, to me, it's always been, I don't know, I'm like, I feel like I'm the only person that thinks about elk hunting in this way of, like, how do I just keep expanding the. The toolbox, the skill set. Push yourself into new realms, which, you know, I'm like, you and I had this conversation. Like, I'm feeling that now. Like, of like, I've kind of figured the thing out. Like, what is the next thing? Right? And like, how do I do more or change it? And you get comfortable because you're like, oh, I know this. Like, you know, I could go be successful. Like, air quotes, Internet successful. But, like, you gotta go expand the knowledge, right? And so, like, I. I think if you're a 2101 or 200 100, you want to be that, like, don't. Don't mean a hurry to, like, push yourself too fast. You gotta learn the skill, right. Become good at the thing. Like, it's a. It's a blend of getting good at what you know, like become a 2 and 1 or be consistent at killing 6 points, right? And you can push that a little bit and be like, I'm gonna kill a little bit bigger. Six points. I'm only going to kill herd bowls, but eventually you're going to have to come out of that shell. And it's always harder to come out of that shell. When you're successful.

Yeah.

Like when you're actually like actually reach 201, then it's like real hard to like. I'm going to go figure out this new thing.

I'm going to intentionally book a hunter during the rifle deer season that I like to hunt in Wyoming so I don't do it next year. Like if I want to. It's that same thing, man. I'm like, it could take two days. I'll go whack a good buck. Like it's fine.

Yeah.

But to that, to your point, it's like if you don't. Yeah. Force yourself out of your bubble. It's not going to happen.

Yeah. But I think if you like are always searching for the new bubble, they can never really become successful.

Yeah. You gotta like pick something and stick with it.

Yeah.

So what do you think about. I know you're not a big deer guy, but you also, you also mess around in Montana.

Hey, don't tell people my secrets.

I've seen you flirt with. With the me deer in Montana.

I'm just scouting for big bowls.

That's right. That's right. With a tag in your pocket, dude. Okay. So Montana's got the same problem with deer in reverse. Seems like everyone who is looking for big ones goes to the mountains. And everyone who wants a nice little four point east.

I feel like they all go east. I mean they all watch a Lampers video and then go east. Yeah.

But the grande's man. I shouldn't be saying this but like I haven't seen a grande come out of like the eastern two thirds of the state in a long time.

No, you're. Well, I mean there are. It's on private. They do come out. What's the question?

So I guess the question is, you know, as you. Have you spent some time deer hunting? Like do you feel like Montana is a good like 101, like go get one state or is it a better like let's grind it out and find something big.

We only talked about meal deers. Why we only talk about meal days?

Because I, I need, I need you. Like this is, this is the thing you're so good about. Like choosing a thing and then doing it and then like going deep on it.

Yeah.

And last year and like in previous years you'll kill an elk and you spend more time deer hunting than I think you're willing to admit.

I don't know. That's okay. So I would say I think Montana's tough. I. I don't know that I Have the deer thing dialed. I think there are good bucks here. I think there are good hunts. Gosh, I feel like I, I again, you know, my deer. If all, like, my deer hunts are, like, I'm scouting for rifle bulls because, like, if I tag out on archery, then I'm like, I know how hard rifle bulls are, and, man, I would love not to hijack it, but, like, I would love to kill a360,370 in rifle season. And it happens, right? And like, some of the places that those things live, they overlap with, like, not good mule deer country, but big mule deer buck. Right. Like, and so I don't know, I'd be curious. Like, to me, it feels like a quantity versus quality. Like, and everyone goes for quantity and not quality. And so, like, I don't know if that's an age class thing. I don't know if it's just like, whatever. And maybe it is. Maybe it's just simply an age class, like, you know, numbers game. Yeah. Which does feel like. And if you boil me, deer hunting down is. I mean, you could say the same thing about elk too, though. Like, yeah, you know, you got to hunt them where they can get old. And I don't feel like in eastern Montana they can get very old. They can get big and young. But that's the age thing. Very, very difficult. Like, just a lot of private land hunting.

It's funny because I was just talking about this related to Colorado, and it's like, it's.

Why do they get old in Colorado?

Well, I think part of it is. And like, people don't really know how old they are not getting, but. Because I think a lot of those in Colorado get big early. But the thing is freaking mule deer, when you're hunting them in the rut in open country. Like, Montana's got that open country. Like, you just. You can find them.

Yeah.

And rifle hunting in, in, in any cases, in whether it's Colorado or Wyoming or Montana. Definitely Montana. Dude, you're not hunting elk in a good time to kill him with a rifle. Like, hard.

Right, Right.

It's freaking hard. So it seems like you got to put more physical boundaries in when you're looking for older age class deer than you do.

Yes, I would, I would agree with that statement. Yeah. Like, and I think that's a difficult part. And I think, you know, I don't know, maybe, maybe I'm wrong in this, but, like, Colorado feels like a lot of the private doesn't get hunted. Like, they're just more like rich people. Who own property where deer can get old. And like that was always my theory. I don't know if there's any accuracy to that.

Yeah. And by the time people are hunting in Colorado, they've like zipped through the public and then gone to the private 100.

And like I think like it is kind of like a lot of those bucks are very high country and then they. Right, you know, right to private. Yeah. And you're like. So there's just by numbers and like just the way the seasons are really short. There's windows where they can break through depending on how snow lands. All those things. Whereas like Montana is like open season, open open season. And I just feel like all the ranchers hunt or lease or like, you know, there's less, there's less sanctuary for deer.

And I think the outfitter, old outfitter tradition, they're running guys through in Montana.

Yeah. They're not stacking bodies.

Yeah. They're doing a couple hunters a week.

Instead of a couple hundred if you want. I don't know. To me it's like if your goal is to kill a big buck in Montana, it's going to be a tough hunt. It's going to be a shitty hunt. Yeah. Great experience and big buck. I don't know if those overlap.

Well. I just, I always think about that one, that nice buck you killed a few years ago and you texted me.

You're like, I should not.

You're like, how far down was he? You're like, I gotta go down this.

Like damn near 3,000.

3,000. Yeah. 3,000 foot drop.

Yeah.

Wiggle through this avalanche.

Which I fell a solid thousand of that.

But I think like, honestly like when I think about looking for big ones in Montana, that's what I picture is like, oh, this is gonna suck.

Yeah. It's just not, not, not a fun experience.

But that's probably also the case with.

Big bulls in R. Travis and I were this year like, gosh, that was a pretty miserable experience too. We never saw yeah. Much of anything. Like. And I told him, I was like, if we see one, it's gonna be a big one. We also might see a big bowl. So. And like I think that's what happens. We just found one big bowl. We found a pocket of deer that wasn't a big buck in it, but like one pocket of deer.

And you never know when to. Yeah. Late season something could come.

Mean like could have went up there and shot a 380 bull and a 200 inch buck. You know, Like. Yeah. Could have Happened, didn't.

Yeah.

And so, like, this is just tough. Yeah. So I don't know. Do you guys think, like, when you talk to your listeners, what are they looking for? Like, where are they at on the deer thing?

Everyone wants a big one. Like, and then you have to put in, like, okay, but do you really, like.

Yeah.

Yeah, like, how everyone wants. Yeah. How bad do you. Because it's that thing of, like, okay, do you want to go look at deer and then, like, hopefully stumble into a lucky one?

That's what seems weird to me about Montana is it's very difficult to have both. Yeah, there's a few exceptions that I can think of, but, gosh, I think.

About that with elk, though, too. And I was thinking about this earlier. When you think about how many people luck into, like, one of one hunters luck into elk in Montana, it's pretty low.

Yeah.

Compared to Colorado.

Yeah.

Because in Colorado, you can just, like, trip over one.

Oh, shoot. Like, yeah, there's no. There's so many there.

Yeah.

I think the same thing about deer. Like, Colorado deer, it's like, you just trip over. Trip over them.

It's probably just. I mean, like, game at that point.

When last time I was in Colorado, Craig and I could have both shot stud box. I mean, we shot good bucks, but, like, there was, like, not a ton of skill. Like, it was like, dude, we were surrounded, you know, by people, and we're just like, oh, there's one. Boom. You know, like, yeah, maybe is a little bit of scale, but, like, let's call it spade of spade. You're kind of just, like, stumbling around until a big one and that.

But that's.

That's the beauty of Colorado, is that, like, you go hunt, it's chaos. But I mean, you know, you might. You might like, just, like, look out your truck window and see a 185. Like, you just don't know. And, like, he'd be bedded there. And you're just like, a thousand people have driven by this buck. Like, there's no rhyme or reason, which is kind of cool. And you're going to see. You see bucks. You see a lot of bucks. Montana. I could be dead wrong. You know, it's funny because, like, I was watching not to call anyone out. Like, I was watching Barney. I'm like, dude, that guy stumbles into a lot. Like, he's good. Like, he finds those pockets. He's finding a lot of bucks and good bucks, which I like, not many.

People are doing that.

No. I mean, he is his own beast. Animal. So, like, maybe it does exist and I'm just not good enough to figure it out. Is that the case?

Well, and if it is, I think that that's where a listener is also probably in the same boat. Right, Right. I hate that. That is like, the biggest downside of anything on YouTube or podcasts or whatever is, like, people don't grade it on the time curve 100.

And like, you could look at I'll pick on Barney or whatever, but, like, you could look at Barney's story and be like, God, hunting deer in Montana is amazing. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I guarantee Barney put in more miles and more out days than like, you'll ever. Like, didn't he took three years of your hunt and put it into, like, his, like, one season. Right. Like, it's like you have to. Yeah, preface. Like what you see. It's like watching a primos video and being like, man, elk hunting is easy. You're like, well, yeah, if you're hunting that ranch, it's easy. And so like, you know, if you watch the highlight reel of someone like Barney, it's like, oh, well, I mean, the dude puts in stupid amount of miles, years and years, you know, lifetime of knowledge. Like, 10 seasons in Barney is like more than all deer hunt in two lifetimes. Yeah.

Do you think so? Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone from Wisconsin or whatever. Minnesota. Oh, Jerry. The old Jerry.

Was it Jerry? I forgot his name already.

Jeffrey.

Jeffrey.

Oh, Jeffrey.

Oh, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey's looking for a 30 inch buck.

30 inch buck.

And do you think they should just save up the. And like, Jeffrey doesn't have the time.

To find some time.

Do you think that they should just save up and go outfitted? Yeah, yeah.

100.

That's kind of where I'm landing on a lot of these too.

Dude.

I used to be wave. Like, nah, man. Like, go do it. And I'm like, I don't know that that's reasonable for if you want a.

Charity inc. Buck, you got to go private land. I mean, do that or knock doors. Like, I think that's still maybe a possibility. I mean, you want to kill big bucks in the state. Like, dude, I've covered a lot of the public and like, I get pictures from friends who have ranches. And I'm like, dude, that buck doesn't exist anywhere else. Like, you know, like, I don't know what your time's worth. And this is like a really fair question. And I think this is true in all hunting. Like, you could either hunt for 30 days and maybe find a 28 inch buck. Like not even a dirty. You could hunt 30 days, find a 30 inch buck, or you could spend 2 or 3,000 bucks and you know, have a higher. Like maybe not every year, but like, you know, at least.

Yeah, yeah, every few years.

Every couple of years. Like, and you and your buddies are killing, you know, solid 170 bucks, right?

And sleeping in a nice bed at.

Night or your camper, like, whatever. It doesn't have to be fancy. I just, man, I think, yeah, I think it, it's more significant than I ever thought. I think it is. Like, man, getting a ranch is pretty handy. And it just depends. I don't want to say like all mule deer hunters are that way, you know, like, whatever. There's going to be dudes that come out here and, you know, they could figure out a giant. And I think that's true. Just like, what do you want out of the hunt? What are the experience, right? Like if you want a, you know, that experience, you want to be that, that lifestyle hunt, right? Like, I think it's doable. And I mean you could go have that experience, right? And the cool thing about Montana is like, you might find a big bull too. You might shoot a wolf. Like, you know, I have a grizzle bear and running. But if you're just like, I want to go on cool hunts, I want to go shoot. I think about the guy from Wisconsin. I think I just think of like, dude, the broadest hunter, right? Like, yeah, going to Broadus. Like everyone goes to Broadus and shoots mule deer. Like, you're just not finding a great hunt, right? Like, I think if like you just want to go out, you don't want to go mule deer hunting. The average mule deer hunter should probably be trying to track down a lease or hunting something, you know, like some kind of. It doesn't have to be guided. I don't, I don't think guided is going to really help. It's just the property.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I. It's taken me at least five years to be like, look, never. Not everyone has the time or like the interest in just going and getting skunked.

Dude, I think we were like, we. I mean, you and I were both poor kids who had time, not money, right? And so like still do. Yes, still. Same. And like, it's just, I mean that's, that's what the life. Like when you're 20, dude, you're just like, it's not even. You don't think about private, you're just like, that's this thing that is unachievable or unattainable. And then you're like, you know, just like, how do I figure it out? How do I hustle? And my entire life has been like, how do I hustle out of the this, Right? And then you're like, oh, man, it's really not that much money. Like, you know, like, when you really think about it, like, what it takes to Hunt. 20, 30 days even. 15, 25, 10, 15, 20 days. Like, man.

Well, now I'm starting to do. Because when you run your own business and I find, dude, there's a huge overlap of. Of entrepreneurs and who, like, are hunters. But I find, like, if you're running your own business, you have an opportunity cost of being gone.

Yeah.

And gosh, when that opportunity cost gets to. Dude, even if your opportunity cost is $500 a day, right. It turns over to an outfit real fast.

Right? Yeah. I mean, I don't like shit on it, but, you know, like, I mean, like, it's a real thing and people are like, man, I like, I don't know. Yeah, that's a whole other. Well. But yeah, I think it's. I think. I think there's a, you know. You know, look at eastern Montana. There's a lot of private. Right. Like, and I think a lot of the better bucks. It's just like, the problem is it funnels so many damn public land hunters onto so little and people about this. And it's like, you know, people about like, oh, no, so much money. Blah, blah. Because the cost of all that private's going up. More and more people are like, man, I'm gonna go hunt private. And I think a lot of the private's not, you know, it's okay. It's not. I mean, it's not great.

You kind of have to do some due diligence, but at least you don't have every Tom, Dick and Harry buzzing around next to you.

Totally. Right. Totally. And I think that's for a lot of people, that's the experience they want. I. I still think you can go on public ground and grind out a 160 buck. I think it's harder than it used to be, but I think you can still do it very achievably, like every year.

Do you think? So on the flip side, on the elk side, is it. Does it feel like a lot of people are being pushed onto the same small public pieces too? I mean, so there's this, like, there's some good data, good studies saying that when there's a lot of animals, people don't notice the hunters. But when there's less animals, you notice every single hunter. And I kind of feel like elk, like, there seems to be enough elk running around right now that people aren't. Right. Like, as concerned about the pressure or the people on the roads anyway.

I think I resonate with that. I think, yeah. Like, I don't notice a lot of hunters when I'm elk hunting, but when I'm deer hunting, like, Jesus Christ. God damn Jeffries everywhere. Like, like, it's funny because, like, dude, I feel like when I go deer hunting out public, I'm like, good God. Like, there's so many damn people. And maybe it's just a lack of critters. Right? Like, maybe it's a mule deer problem, not a human problem. I don't know.

That's. Yeah, that's what it's been in Wyoming too. It's like, oh, we're 50 less hunters right now. Like, we're just selling 50 less tags. But people.

That's a real thing. Yeah, that's a number.

This is a number.

Why is the tags. Since, like 2016, 2015, 50 less resident or non resident? Both.

Both.

Mixed.

Yeah.

Or both.

Well, obviously, like, so, I mean, this is the same with every state. Montana's in this predicament right now. It's like the numbers of animals, or deer in particular, are down and the non resident numbers stay static, like, more or less. Right. But residents will stop hunting. They'll get discouraged.

Right.

And they won't buy the tags. And that's what you're seeing in Wyoming, too.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's pretty. And same in Idaho. Robbie Denning did a podcast about this in Idaho.

There's getting burnout. Yeah.

People are like, oh, there's no animals. I'm gonna go do something.

You think that's just a pendulum? Yeah, I think it'll swing back and forth.

It has, but it hasn't swung back as hard. Like, once people quit, less people get back.

So it's like a slowly receding pendulum.

Yeah. Like in the eight. Well, and also a lot of people are dying out. Like, our. The freaking.

All the boomers are dying on me here.

Movers are dying on us, man. Because, like, back in the day, there were so many people hunting, and I. I also think there were so many people.

Where do you define that number? Like you say back in the day.

So usually right around somewhere. Right around 1990.

Back in the day.

Yeah.

Jaden Also told me once that Tool. Was it Metallica that you said tool.

No, they were on. They were on the classic rock channel.

No, they're not. Classic rock God.

Yeah, but right around 1990 was when there's like this big crash and like a bunch of people.

The 1900s.

Back in the 1900s, people stopped hunting as much anyway.

Damn electricity came out. And then. Okay, that's interesting. I mean, I don't know, I try not to like, over dramatize, dramaticize it, but like, you know, people. There's. Man, you talked a lot of people.

Really, like, really down.

Yeah. Like, it's not worth going anymore.

I don't know. I was gonna say. I usually like it when people say that because I'm like, all right, watch me.

Yeah.

Whether. Whether or not I'm like, get something or not, it's like I'm just gonna.

Like, stat to stat. I kill way more animals in 2025 for. Than I do in 1996.

When you were 10.

Actually, death per death. I killed way more than like tweety birds.

Yeah. Let's don't count rock ducks out the back.

Oh, yeah. A lot of. A lot of died anyway.

All right, so final, final thoughts. Where should Montana sit in someone's like, expectations? Do you dear for.

For both.

Well, we'll start with elk. Is it a state that you come out here looking for a big one and then go home empty handed, or is it a get one state?

Ooh, I like that question. And I hope this doesn't like, someone's going to look up a podcast. I just did that's not out. Well, I don't know when they come on. Anyway, my point was, and this is.

Like looking over all the options you got in the West. Right.

I know. Oh, and I think first and foremost, if you want to be, you know, you want to be a hunter, you got to have a national strategy.

Yeah.

Which is crazy to say. I. I've always had one. I was from Oregon. You had to have an like, that was also a thing. So I think anyone now kind of has to have. I. I think the five year strategy is semi dead. You know, it's creeping, isn't it? Yeah. It's like it's moved. I consider it dead. And I. I got rid of it a few years ago. But like, I've said this too many times, but I'll say it again. In the old days, back in 082000, not even 1900s, you know, you had like, I'm gonna have a. I'm Gonna have a five year strategy and every year I'm gonna hunt a great state with five points. Like that was like a, it made sense, right? I don't think that's a thing. I think people, most people should be focusing on at bats with like a three year rolling strategy and a long term strategy. Right. So I want to build three states that I can hunt to build my skill set every single year. And then, you know, I'm also building long term strategy. So your Arizona's, your Nevada's, your New Mexico's, your Wyoming's, like those are like big bull states. I put Montana in the at bats category. If you want to switch that and you want to change that, that's totally fine. I think Montana is one of the best big bowl states in the world.

Yeah.

Really believe that. Right. Like, and so like if you, if you said I only want to hunt, you know, great big bulls there and I'm going to put that in my long term strategy, I'm not like totally acceptable. Great, great plan. But I think if you really wanted to hunt more six points, the problem is like you want to go get at bats. You know, there's plenty of states to focus on. Like you go Colorado, Utah and Oregon. But that means you gotta hunt spikes, right? Or like whatever, maybe you can move Montana to a spike state and like that's an at bat thing. And then you, you know, that's your other strategy, right? So I think there's some play there. I think if you want to have a really good solid three year strategy with big bulls, like focusing on the skills and the three year hunts and then the long term, like you're going to focus on those, you know, like experiential hunts, let's just call them that, right. I think there's a strategy there and I think, you know, going back to your, you know, like I'm going to hunt cows and I'm going to like just save up my points. I'm trying to think, can you save points and get cow tags?

Here be tags.

Yeah, yeah, right. That doesn't, yeah. Okay, so you can do that. So that means like man, you're, it's tough. It kind of sucks. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta eat the, like I'm not gonna be able to shoot a six point this year, which like 99% of these people will never do. They would rather go on a hunt, get one at bat, but have the chance at a six point than they would focus on the skill, focus on learning the area. Because you could get B tags. For some really cool hunts in Montana. Focus on learning the area, the compound and the skill and you know, every five years pull that tag. So yeah, I tend to put Montana with that said, like you could also put it into the three year category and you could say like I'm going to hunt six points on a general tag and I think it's a great hunt, dude. Like it is and you still have a chance at a solid 350 bull in a lot of places in Montana. And you could build a strategy around only hunting six points and hunt every, every year. If you didn't even live in a state with elk, that's like not, not considering, like say you live in Idaho, you get to hunt that state plus one. Right. So it kind of changes where you go. But I do think that like I put Montana, it could be either or I would not like your choice. You could either like add it to the three year category and the long term category or you could hunt, you know, a pretty solid hunt every, every other year, every three third year. So I, I, I don't know, go either way. It's kind of on the fence.

I am so nervous that something's going to change and Montana is going to go the way of Wyoming for non residents. I mean it's like, yeah, right. Guys like us will always figure it out.

But yeah, yeah, Wyoming used to be that three year counter that three year state. Yeah, every other state. Like dude, I, I, a lot of years you would go like Idaho or Wyoming, like they would just bounce back and forth, you know. Now it's like a five year state which I don't, gosh, I, but I.

Think that's where those B tags get even more valuable.

Yeah, that's the sleeper.

That's the sleeper.

Like if you want to build skill.

Yeah.

And you like the other thing is you're building skill, you're building like there's a lot of places you could build skill and learn an area simultaneously and have a great hunt dude. Like be fun and then, you know, you might meet some cool people too. Like if you go on those hunts and like start talking to people, A, start knocking doors, B, start knocking camps and being like, hey, you guys got a big bull tag.

Like I'll keep an eye out for you.

Yeah, yeah, like oral hunt, like whatever. Like it's a lot of times you go on those hunts, you know, you, the thing about five year hunts, five point hunts is usually people are doing it by themselves because like, you know, my buddy doesn't have eight points or Seven point, like, whatever it is. And so, like, you know, if you find some dude, it's like in a pup tent next to his truck, like, hey, you want to hunt together? You know, you could build some cool relationships that have a great experience. Underrated. But that's other thing. So that's my thought. On elk, on deer. Ah, dude, I live here. I can go down to Ace and buy the tag. And I am.

You have a hard time getting motivated?

I have a hard. Like, I would take almost any other tag. So, like, I'm like, they're flipped. Montana. I would take a Montana tag over almost any other state, which is crazy statement. And I put Nevada in that category. Like, it'd be a close call. Right. With that said, I'm like the opposite for dare. I'm like, I would almost take any other state. I would take an Idaho. Some of the draw tags over Montana General tag, I would take for sure.

Colorado.

Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah. Dependently. Yeah. Like, most of the states, I'm like, how do I. How do I go somewhere else first? I'm just like, I don't want to waste the 10 days here, honestly, like, unless it's like, gosh. And like, that's where I'm like, gosh, I think I shouldn't say this out loud. Someone's gonna critique me. But I think Montana becomes my whitetail state. I almost rather hunt whitetails here and go meal. They're hunting somewhere else. And, like, there's a lot of cool tags I can have. And, like, I'm getting to that point in life and business with kids and everything that, like, I don't have. Like, if I'm going to take 20, 30 days in September, I don't have.

It's gonna be on elk. It's not right.

I don't have 100 days like I used to. So, like, I have to kind of get picky. And I'd almost take any other tag over Montana General.

Fair enough.

Seems like a bold statement, but I gosh, that's where I'm feeling right now.

Yeah, I. I mean, I think that that's where a lot of people are leaning.

Yeah, but I mean, but then you watch Barney and you're like, God, I just suck at meal deer hunting, apparently, because that guy freaking crushes.

Yeah. And the other piece of that is with a bow.

God.

In rifle season.

Yeah.

Yeah. But that's where the other. The other side of that coin is, is I do look at While or Montana as a good get one state for deer hunter. And I like Your first deer, like, it makes sense maybe.

And I honestly, like, the reality of that is like, you know, Wade's getting to that point where, you know, like, it's just going to be Montana's a get them state. Right. Like, that's. I, I leaning more towards, like, you know, you do all these crazy hunts and like, you now Wade's getting to the age where it's like, oh, what's. What's a hunt I can do with him? Or like, you know, just shoot a deer. So you kind of gotta like reverse a little bit. And so I think that's a piece of it is like, I want Montana be a cool state. I think it's underrated for whitetails. I think those would be a fun hunt too. But I also am all like, very much just like, how do I go shoot deers with Wade and, you know, like, build, build that experience. So for me, it's just kind of where it's at. So I'm like, if I'm like, I really want my mule deer experience, which is like, you know, I don't know what it is, but like, trying to kill a big buck, like, I want a solid shot at, like, I just don't get that excited. Anything under 175. And that's not because I've killed so many meal deer.

It's just.

I just don't get excited about meal deer. Yeah. So like, you know, 180 buck, I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. But like, minus that. I don't want to waste the days. So that's where I'm at. That's. I don't know. And I think you can do it better in other states.

I think you're right, man. Yeah. It's definitely the, the difference in, like, are you trying to get one or are you at the place where you're just like, ah, let's just wait till a big one shows up.

Totally. Everyone's different. Yeah.

Cool. That's good. That's good one to end on because hopefully it gives people some things to think about. Especially because Wyoming, or I keep saying Wyoming because it's just top of mind for me. Colorado and Montana, their deadlines for applications are due, like, at the same time, like a day apart.

I know.

And I'm like, man, did it used.

To be that way? I feel like Montana was early. Didn't Montana used to be the end of January or some crazy.

I don't even, I don't know. But regardless, I'm over here trying to decide which direction to go.

So I feel like.

Yeah, we can talk about that offline.

Yeah.

All right, James, man, that's the pod. Thank you for listening to the Hunt west podcast cast. If you like what you heard today, the best compliment you can give is to share the show with a friend. We will see you on the next episode, and we hope one day to see you Hunt West.