Dan Pickar | The 1% Window: How to Capitalize on Fleeting Elk Opportunities

Foreign this is the elk hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode is brought to you by Tricer Tripods. You need something to put that fancy new maven optics on. Get yourself a Tricer tripod and one of their panheads. Man, Drew, good friend of mine started this Tricer tripod company and his innovation is so crazy, the number of new products he's come out with and is coming out with, hint, hint, wink, wink is amazing. My setup Tricer ad with a Tricer LP panhead. The LP is, is a sweet panhead. Very lightweight man, don't even know it's there. Super smooth, all that can handle pretty big optics as well. So if you're looking for a very lightweight elk hunting tripod setup, the LP panhead, great little, great little addition. And if you get the, the bino clamp adapter, get all on there, Great little setup. Check them out. Tricer.com use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 10% off and get yourself a full setup. If you're looking for a new tripod, great option, check them out. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Stone Glacier. I'm excited to tell you about the new Sky Archer 6400. It's the pack that I'm going to be running this year. And one of the things I love about all Stone Glacier packs is the fact that I can use the pack on an eight day backpacking hunt and then turn around and kind of use it as a day pack for elk hunting. Their packs are so light that you don't need a different pack for both. They can just do both. They can be a day pack and they weigh almost nothing. Love the new Sky Archer. It's got great setup for the bow which I'm excited about for archery hunting. But again, it works great for, you know, longer eight, ten day hunts as well. If you're interested in a new pack, go check out the new Sky Archer. The whole line of Stone Glacier packs is awesome. They kind of have something for everyone. So go check them out. Stoneglazer.com all right, Dan, welcome to the podcast, man. How we doing?

Good, very good. How are you?

Good, man. Like it's almost season, it's almost here. We can actually like look forward to it. We're like counting the days, man.

Yeah, six weeks is Not. No time at all.

Not, man. I'm actually headed to Alaska, and I had to, like, pack for hunting, which is pretty early. I go to Oregon anyway. But I was like, holy crap. I got. I gotta pack for season. I gotta, like, put broadheads on. I gotta get dialed here. So. Yeah, it's around the corner.

You're starting early, going to Alaska, huh?

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna do some blacktail, so we're head to southeast Alaska, Hit the high country, you know, break some bows. Break the bows in and. Yeah, try to get it done. Yeah. An Alaskan adventure. I love manalock adventures, but it's always good, too. It's good primer for, like, elk season. Make sure all your gear styles, make sure everything's good to go. It's kind of like hunting antelope.

Yep. Yep, Exactly. Sweet. That'll be fun. I did that, what, 10. Jeez. It's been 10 years ago. We went up there, and I haven't gone back to southeast, but I got up there, I think it was like, August 17th or something, and it rained for seven days straight. I think we got, like, eight inches of rain in seven days, and we didn't do anything.

No wonder you didn't go back. That actually makes sense. Dude, I. I watched your film, your recent film, and I mean, I love watching your films anyway, but do that ball you killed. I don't know if we're supposed to talk about it, but I guess it's spoiler alert. It's a great YouTube video. And Dan kills a giant. Yeah. But it's probably already out there. Great film. What a cool hunt. What a cool elk experience. Yeah. Congrats. I mean, I want to talk a little bit about it, but, like, high level. I mean, is that one of the most epic elk, like, I don't know, elk encounters you've ever been around? Yeah.

I mean, when I look back at when I first started elk hunting, and I kind of played into that a little bit in the film, you know, as a kid and kind of the first elk experience. And this is like a dream scenario. Right? Like, you. You might have an opportunity like this once in your life to hunt a place like this. And that's truly what this was. And it just was one of those experiences that, you know, hunting private, which is. Was a true privilege.

Right.

For starters. And there's been, of course, a lot of people that are like, oh, it was private. And, you know, that's. That's fine. And I'm very fortunate that I was able to. To gain access for, for little to nothing to hunt this place and you know, on a draw tag that I waited a very long time for. And yeah, one, once again, this is an experience that I'll never forget because it was that insane.

Dude, I'd love to dive into. I mean like you kind of brought the, the private public thing, but like what a cool. Yeah, like the footage is insane. The elk encounters are insane, the at bats are insane. I mean the amount of. You have a ton of elk experience anyway, but the amount of elk experience that you got. I was almost in one day is more than most people get in a light like lifetime or like a week or like, you know, like there's a huge advantage to that. And I'm like, I mean I have nothing against people hunting private. Like there's some cool ran like cool places. Maybe someday I'll get to hunt something cool like that. Like I, I would never poo poo it at all because it's like, it's a, it's a different experience for sure. Um, but walk. Like what was your thought on like going into it? Did you know it was going to be that good? Did you know like you're going to get that many out bats?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. This is one of those situations. Once again. Going back to this is why all these years of, of just putting the work into bow hunting and getting repetitions and getting all this experience that I possibly could muster out of every season for the last 20 years was to someday when I did find myself in one of these experiences or one of these situations, I could truly capitalize and truly just prevail and, and get the, the most out of the experience and not only just killing a big bull, I mean that's icing on the cake of course, but truly getting the full experience. And so yeah, that, that's exactly what it was. And I, I'm once again, I can't reiterate this enough how grateful I am for the opportunity. But I knew this was a good place. You know, I, I talked to guys in the past. I've done my homework, right? So in the age of elk hunting in 2025 now, the level of resourcefulness, if you want to move forward and, and try to just get better and better, not only at your crafts, but finding new places to hunt is. You have to be resourceful, you have to be connected, networking. And so that's ultimately what it was. And, but ultimately, let me tell you, this is. The landowner didn't know who I was and didn't. Doesn't care Who I am. I was the first person to call him after I drew a tag. And, and he allows public access about every year. And it's first come, first serve. That. That's. That's what it was. And, and so I took advantage of that. I. I didn't know that specifically. You don't know if he's going to have friends or family that are going to hunt that are going to take priority over you. I've heard these stories, you know, the, the lore of the past, of, of hunting this place and, and that it's really good. And so, so, yeah, just kind of right place, right time. You know, a lot of his friends and family did not draw last year. And so that just worked out in your favor? It just worked out in my favor that that's all it was. And I was the first one to call him. And, you know, I paid 200 a day to hunt the place. And I, I feel like that's reasonable, right? I mean, the average Joe could do that. And I knew it was going to be great hunting for sure, but not. I didn't know it was gonna be quite that exceptional, dude.

You know, it's funny, you said resourcefulness and I had this concept. I'm actually doing a podcast with Dan State now because I called him and I was like, man, this concept of, like, high agency, and you have to become high agency if you want to be a great hunter, right? But there's so much more to, like, being, oh, great at calling elk. There's more than being a good woodsman. It's like, man, these days you have to be so good at, like, finding the opportunities. Find. Finding, you know, the tag opportunities, the. The access opportunities like that. You gotta, I mean, you gotta be tied in. I mean, you gotta be like, it's not just even e scouting, it's like you can't even just e scout anymore. It's like you gotta be really good at all of the aspects, which is like figuring it out, talking to people, knowing who's, you know, like, you knew this was a good property, right? You, like that goes into like, all of it, right? And, man, I think that's a huge piece of, like, you look at successful guys like you, Barney, whoever, like, you're. You're always finding you're just very plugged in to everything that's going on around hunting. And it's like, that's kind of how you gotta be if you wanna, like, you know, take it to the next level.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And. And it's. You don't have to be that there's a fine line, right? Because you don't wanna be like a user, right? You don't wanna be that guy that's like a user and you're trying to wiggle your way in. But it's also like being a good person, like living your life, right? And you know, if, if I ever am looking for a tip from somebody, say like I want to make sure I have something to offer back to that person. And I enjoy with, with my buddies too and acquaintances. It's like yeah, I'll trade information or if you want me to take you hunting in Wyoming or whatever. And so it's, it's a brotherhood, right? It's a lifestyle. And the more, the more connected you are, the more you talk about it, the more you live it, the more just probably by nature you're going to be connected as well. And so that's what it is, is, is living, breathing and doing the lifestyle of bow hunting and hunting in general.

I could not agree more. And like, like you said, you still have to be a good person and like I think it actually goes farther like you know, if you're the miser and you just like hold all your information in and you're like, you like don't tell anyone, like no one's going to give you information and like it's really hard to acquire all the knowledge and like, yeah, hold it to yourself is like, same way like the more people you can connect with the like help other people, the more it's going to come back to you. And those things pay dividends when you get to hunt cool places and it all works out, right?

Yeah, no, absolutely. It, it's a two way street and some someday that's what you hope for is something falls into your lap a little bit and right place, right time and I, I talk about it all the time when you know, guys are talking about say banking points and applying for these units and, and ultimately you're, you're better off to hunt more these lesser quality units and just hunt more, gain more experience because there's, there's all these little things, right that can hinder a premium unit or you know, this, this unit maybe that you, you wait 15 to 20 years to hunt. What if you have a bad weather year? What if you have a fire that shuts it down? And so all this dedication to point building could be down the tubes if you just hit it on the wrong year. And so yeah, you're better off just to keep your name in the hat and Play the game all the time, every year and try to hunt as much as you can and be involved in the conversations and give back and just be active. Right?

You know what? It doesn't get said enough. And I think your video, your recent video showed this a lot, which is like, you spent a lifetime developing this skill, the hunting elk. And then when you were put in this opportunity where it's like, yeah, Jurassic Park, I wouldn't even say it was. You know, everything is easy because you were able to move through elk. And we could really break down some of, like, the times you were calling versus not calling and how you moved and like, to, you know, to get to a shooter bowl, even the ability to pass a bowl that 99% of us would have shot, right? Like, that only comes from 20 years of, like, honing that edge, right? Getting sharp and being a damn good elk hunter. And then it's like, then you capitalize. Because most people, even if they drew that tag, even if they had that access, it weren't killing the bull you killed. Like, it just wasn't gonna happen. And I don't think it's, like, a given that even if you have money and you have the points, you're still not guaranteed a giant bull, right? Like, you have to have the skills to pull it off. And I'd be super curious if you're, in your opinion, like, even on that place. I mean, it was Jurassic park, but I don't think those elk were easy to kill. Like, they seem like they called in much, you know, a lot, like every other elk, maybe more of them. But do you think it was a mass difference?

Yeah. No. I mean, you still have the public versus private factor, where private elk are a little bit easier to call. Just easier in general. Maybe a little less spooky. You know, the. The seven point. Right. I don't. I don't know what was going through that bull's head because he, like, smelled something and then he walked to me, which was a surprise. And so I don't know if he. He truly didn't smell me, but he caught something that was off. Like, I'm not a. Like a big scent control guy, but I. I watch, you know, I let my clothes hang out overnight and just try to get that human scent off of them. But that stuff like that makes you wonder, right? Because in. In a high pressure unit or a unit with grizzly bears and wolves and every sort of predator trying to kill something, they get a whiff of something that isn't natural, and they're like, yeah, yeah. And so that bull wasn't like that. And so maybe that was part of the. The private factor, that these elk just don't get harassed and hunted constantly like elk do on public land. But. But, yeah, it's still difficult. Right? And that's the. The hurdles that you end up encountering on places. Because it's so crazy. Like, with elk calling, for example. And I've. I've guided on places before, and this was kind of a similar place, but it. It varies so much, but it's like, if bulls are bugling all it. All the time, do they really care about you bugling? They. They don't really.

Well, and I was gonna. I was gonna say that because, like, there's a. I think there's a giant mistake. There's a. There's a portion in your video, and I, like, I just. I. I noticed it, and I wanted to bring it up where bulls are screaming all around you, and you're just like, let's just keep going. We're gonna keep moving. And I think everyone else would have been like, you get caught up in the moment. They want to bugle with them. It's like, dude, there's eight bulls bugling. What. I mean, I'm just another voice in the choir at that point. Like, yeah, walk me through, like, when. What was the, you know, thought there? Like, why did you not even call when it seems like, man, you could be a part of the circus or there was a lot of bulls around, you know, like, is there a reason you don't call in those situations?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Every. Every decision that I'm making is based off of past experience or. Or me thinking that I understand elk or, you know, from what I've gather, last several years. But calling is. It's, like, definitely a variable in the equation, but it's not the answer in elk hunting all the time. And as you saw in the harvest, too, it didn't work. And I said, let's see if we can do this the easy way.

Yeah.

And. But this bull was wired a little bit differently, and I'm sure you picked up on that, too, where he was more interested in staying away from other bulls and avoiding the competition. And I think ultimately that's also a difference. When you have a high bull to calorie ratio in an area, when you get to the peak of the rut and you got estrus starting to flow, like, these bulls prefer not to have competition, so they start, like, moving into the periphery or maybe, like, moving away from some of the core rutting area to just avoid the know bull competition. And so there's that factor there. But no, when it comes to like moving through the elk, you know, I, I went into this hunt and I knew what I was looking for and, and not necessarily a number, but something with a big frame and that older mature bull that was impressive to look at. And for me, like, I love a good top end, those royals and those fifths and there's a specific look that I was looking for. And I know that sounds like very like snobby and my nose is turned up, but once again we're, we're circling back to this is a one chance opportunity for me that I'm going to get to hunt this. And so I wanted the experience that I was looking for and I wanted to make sure I was going to get that. And that not only is self control, but sifting through bulls and that's the point I wanted to make was just like looking through bowls and you can, you're looking and you're kind of, there's too many elk to really call and, and to, to you know, make good of a situation with that many elk when you're surrounded and the wind's only gonna stay so stable. And so I knew calling wasn't not only gonna work number one, because there were so many bulls, but I wasn't seeing what I was looking for anyway. It was kind of weird because just how these hunts play out, you just never know. Like every hunt's different and there's like still this percentage of an elk hunt that it's like by the grace of God or, or the, the elk gods or luck or however you want to put it. But this big frame bull, I thought he was like in the 360s, but he had that extra second on the right side and then his second was kind of broken on the left side. And like I saw that bull every day and if he would have like offered himself up to me, I probably would have killed him. But he never did. So it's one of those bulls that I saw all the time. But it just didn't like, it wasn't a black and white scenario to be like, okay, I'm going to go kill him right now. It was like, ah, he's got 30 cows and you're just gonna end up mucking things up more than you're going to be doing any good. And so it just never developed. But yeah, just a beautiful bull that I never really pursued too hard just because of the situation that he was in.

Alrighty. Guys, quick interruption to tell you that we got another giveaway going on before season. This month, we're giving away a stone Glacier Sky Archer 6400. It's the pack I'm going to be using, and we're giving away a pair of shnaze timberline boots. So if you want to get entered to win, head over to the website, get your name in the hat, or sign up for the elk hunt course and get five bonus entries. All right. Enjoy the episode. Yeah, I mean, this. It's an interesting dynamic because, like, you have so many elk. Like, you're trying not to mess it up. You want to keep them there. And I think this is the underrated part of, like, hunting's private is sometimes you can bump them all, and then you're. You're kind of really solid. A lot of times, it's like, surrounding private. So you're always trying to play that safe card, right? You're like, okay, I don't. I don't want to keep these elk here. So it's like you got to wait for that perfect opportunity. You can't. You know, on public, you can almost be more aggressive, right? Like, yeah. Depending on where you're at. But it's like, you know, you're still going to be in play. If they bump a lot of times with private, especially small privates, it's like, man, you get. That's it. And if you bump them, you bump them. And so in that. In that scenario, you're talking about, like, well, okay, every day, things are changing. Everything every day, like, different bulls kind of doing something different. And it's like there's so much chaos that you just kind of just got to be around. You got to float around and look for those opportunities. It's like, exactly what you did. You're like. You're like, ah, this isn't it. And you could see, I'll kind of give, like, a visual. But, like, at least from the interpretation of watching the film, it was like there's a lot of bowls just floating around, and there's a lot of, like, action going on. And in those scenarios, it's like, you don't want to call those bulls in unless you know you can get away with it. Because a lot of times you call those bulls in and then you get busted, right? And you don't want them spooking the herd. But I was going to ask, because you did call in a few. You know, what was kind of your thoughts? Like, when do you call? Because you're saying, okay, a Lot of times I don't want to call because I don't. I'm just waiting for that right opportunity. I'm in proximity. I'm waiting for an opportunity to show itself. But there were a number of bulls that you ended up calling in. Walk me through, like, what's your thought process and you know, why you decided to do that?

Yeah. So this, and this does apply to public or private land for sure. But you have two types of bulls during the rut and you have, which are age class difference as well. But you have bulls that are doing the breeding and they know they're going to be the ones doing the breeding. And then you have bulls aspiring to breed, but they're probably a year too young because competition, there's all these factors. Right. And so I knew that, you know, 99 chance that I was going to be calling in the age class of bull that I wanted to harvest was going to be probably fairly minute, especially since, you know, I was there during probably peak rut. And so the bulls that are going to be doing the breeding are going to be cowed up already. And so I was going to be spotting and stalking was kind of my thought. But that being said, calling elk is a lot of fun. And, and so chasing bugles middle of the day, you know, you watch these elk and the bulls that are with cows and they're doing the breeding, they're under a lot of stress, they're working their tails off and they, they'll calm down a little bit during the day and, and relax and get some rest as the cows do. But you get these younger bulls that are still probably having high testosterone loads and they're not breeding and they're roaming around during the day and looking for a cow here and they're really piping off like that intense bull calling cows bugle or challenge bugle and they're, they're looking for cows. And so I knew that was my opportunity to kind of play with them a little bit, just gather some footage and have those close encounters that are so thrilling, of course, why we, we call elk. And so yeah, I went, went into that knowing that the, the odds of me calling into the, the timber and, and a big, you know, older bull coming in were pretty slim because of the timing, what was probably almost a zero percent chance. So, so yeah, that was more of just a fun thing that I, I did just to have those encounters by, by calling kind of in the middle of the day. And most of my calling, that's when it was, is when everything was Kind of, you know, the cows were bedded down for the day and there wasn't too much activity. But you know how it is on public. I mean, during the peak of the rut, you never know what's going to happen. And a lot of those bulls on public, I, you call them in in the middle of the day because they're searching for cows and they come in like a puppy dog because they're aspiring to breed and they still have high loads of testosterone and they probably haven't bred yet and they're very susceptible.

And I mean, sometimes, like those are big bulls. Like, there's definitely odd times where. And you'll find a scenario where you got like a 350, 360 satellite bull at the right area. Right. Like, I hate, I don't love the term herd bowl satellite bull. That's an interchangeable moving target. Right. But like, I love that concept you talked about. I think we should double down on that Is like aspiring to breed and then there's breeding and sometimes you get one of those giants and it creates like aspiring bulls that are world class bulls. Right. Like, I've definitely seen that. And again, you were talking about timing where it's like, yeah, peak rut probability is those big bulls are herded up or like they're, they're doing the thing right before that. There's a lot of times where you like catch those bulls in that, in that time frame where it's like they're maybe not, you know, maybe they're even with them at daylight and dusk, but they're pulling off, right. They not a hot cow in there. So they're going to pull off. And so like, you kind of got to watch that. I do love that term of aspiring, you know, like that age class. It's like, man, they're, they're rambunctious, they're out searching. Any couple of Cal calls, you're going to call them in. 99% of guys stoked about that. That's great. And you know, even I'm watching for those opportunities where it's like there might be a shooter bowl that's in that situation. Like you said, it's, you know, probably not likely, but definitely be on the lookout for it for sure. And those, those are such great opportunities to capitalize on elk that are very willing to come in. Do you feel like it's easier to call those bulls in in a scenario where you take like a basin or an area where you have a lot of activity and it kind of like gets everything a Little more fired up versus, say, you know, we go into a basin. There's one herd, one herd bull, one satellite. Kind of a little bit tougher to call that satellite in. I don't know if you could talk about that or if you have experience with that scenario.

Yeah, no, that's very good points. You know, I. I grew up in northwest Montana, so we're dealing with low elk densities, and that's what I ran into a lot as a kid. And probably why I failed so much, too, because I didn't truly understand what was going on. But by time you hit estrus, or at least the middle of September, the bull that's doing the breeding is with the cows. And. And, you know, they're. They're avoiding confrontation with anybody else. So you get the classic, well, I bugled at them and they ran the other way, or they took off or they, you know, they left. And so you have that factor in, and then you might have a rag horn here or a rag horn there, and those are the ones that you end up killing because they come in. But I have found that in areas with just higher densities of elk, they're more vocal, they're more susceptible to calling. It's. It's almost like. And I think it plays in, too, with the bull to cow ratio. When there's that many bulls, competition is high. And so everything is heightened as far as effectiveness goes when it comes to calling as well. But going back to northwest Montana, where I grew up, the bull to cow ratio was so low, I think it was in the single digits, you know, growing up. And the last thing those bulls want is competition, right? And so when they do hear another bull, they, you know, they. They kind of hunker down and hide or they. They move off because they don't want the confrontation. But going back to the. The units with the higher density of. Of bulls to cows, you know, that there's just more confrontation. And they're used to that, and they're wired that way. They expect it. And so that's why I think you get more calling, you get more aggressive bulls that are. They're more apt to come confront you if you get in their zone. And so it's just like everything's a little bit on steroids, a little bit when you have just higher densities of elk in an area.

So for the guy that, like, man, this is the year he stumbles into a rut fest. And a rut fest is funny because it doesn't happen very often. And when it does, you Kind of panic. You don't know what to do. It's chaos. Like, what is, like what is your go to now? Let's take public, private. Let's assume you're on public ground. This and it's a rut fest. It's chaos. You go into the cow calls, you going to the bugles challenges. Are you like trying to just like get close? You're not going to use a call like, what, what's your advice to the guy that runs into a rut fest this year?

Yeah, yeah. So a rut fest, I would consider multiple bulls, bugling, maybe some fighting. That means estrus cows and some breeding. So there's a lot of chaos in those situations. I just be quiet. And that's probably mostly because, you know, I talk so much on Life of the Bow Hunter podcast about just being within that maybe that 70 yard area of an elk is, is the battle. Right. And so if you can get within that area, that bull or cow or whatever you're hunting needs to, to give you that other 30 yards to get within 50 to, to make it happen. And so in rut festival, God, so situational. I hate to just like say this is what you do, but I, I tend to be a little bit more quiet if there's a ton of bulls bugling and, and usually if there is a rut fest, the bull that I want is probably the herd bull and a bunch of cows. So I end up spotting and stalking anyway.

Right.

In those situations, if you're looking, if you're hunting maybe a general tag over the counter and you're happy with anything, you, you might go target a bull on the periphery and, and do a lost calf call and try to squeak them in. But in those situations, I tend to just stalk.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, there's a lot of eyeballs. It's so much eyeballs. And the chaos is a good thing, the chaos is a bad thing. Like, I'm the same way. I usually just shut up and try to get close to the herd bowl. You know, it's the 9010 rule. If I can get 90 and let them come 10 ideally, calling in those situations usually either results in like a satellite messing everything up. Unless, I mean you're like fine with, you see a satellite, you want to shoot, you know, call them over, like, hey, do it. Yeah, it's, it's a great opportunity because it's like that back to the conversation about heightened awareness. Heightened, like just testosterone. Everything's a little bit chaotic. And I use a great time to Kind of capitalize on that chaos. A lot of times you can get away with movement. A lot of times you can get away with a lot. Right. And those are all good things. So, yeah, man, I, I can count on like one hand how many times I've a true rut fest. And it's just like, it's so magical just taking the moment because like, they're few and far between. Definitely on like public land over the counter. If you get into a rough fest on public land over the counter, tag like, count your, your blessings because that's a once in a lifetime thing.

Absolutely. Yeah. Same, same thing. You know, very definitely single digits. How many times I've witnessed them and, and most of the time, honestly, I just, I sit back and watch because it's, it's so cool, you know, with, with all that activity and all the chaos of moving around, once again, odds are low that I'm going to get a crack at my target animal anyway. And so, yeah, you just got to sit back and enjoy it. That's why we do it, right, Is to, to watch them and learn about them and see, you know, how they're moving and what they're doing during those rut fests. And I feel like a lot of them happen at night, right, when a lot of that's going on, so. Oh yeah, you witnessed that during the day, in the morning or the evening. It's definitely special.

Totally. You know, you, you mentioned this kind of, this concept of talking about on your podcast, the, you know, getting 70%, you know, getting within 70 yards, trying to let them close that distance, and that is like the big hurdle. And I, I, I kind of talk about 90, 10. Like you get go 90, let them come 10, same philosophy, right? Like, just get yourself in a playable position, ideally trying to get in front of them, but that's an almost never the case. Like, it's just like there's a, it's a tough moving target when you, when you think about that. And I guess I'll play into the video, you know, you were following a bull and you're like, oh, we gotta back out and go around this mountain because the wind is right. Walk me through. You know, when do you make that decision to like, pull out? Is it always wind and it's always like, it's, it's black and white. Or is it like, can we cut these at elk off? Or are you always looking for that opportunity to get in front of them?

Yeah, yeah, I would say I am. And after a few days of being in an area, you kind of get an idea of what these elk are doing if, you know you haven't spooked them and you haven't disturbed what they're naturally doing. And. And so once I understand what they're doing, and I knew these bulls and cows, they're partying down here by the water, and then they were moving up over to the mountain to bed during the day. And so I was there a few days, I kind of understood what was going on. I saw him on the open hillside, and then I know where they're going, right. And so, yeah, that's when I did the old loop around through the timber to try to get in front of them. Now, whether they were going to come up the mountain all the way is one thing, which they really didn't. They just kind of hung on the backside in the first little patch of timber because probably, once again, unpressured elk, they didn't. They're not moving very far from their feeding and watering to their bedding area. They're. They're safe there. They're happy there. They're not getting disturbed there. They're not really having to move much. And so I think that plays a role into that as well. But for the most part, if I'm just flying by the seat of my pants in a new unit or. Or hunting an area that, you know, maybe elk got spooked in by another hunter, I will dog them and just stay behind them, hopefully undetected, until they quit moving, they bed down or whatever it is they do, and then get the wind and looper in, loop in around on them. But yeah, I only, like, try to, like, put the effort in to get in front of them. If I know what they're doing right.

You can predict it. Did you kill more elk in the evening or in the morning?

I would say midday. I kill most of my bulls. Yeah. Thinking back at the last five years, say I've killed evening time, I would say is. Is mostly. But yeah, 10, 10 to 1pm if you can believe that is when I kill most of my elk.

How does your. What's your, like, main tactic if you're gonna hunt midday? Is that to him calling, you know, come here, you kill some giants. So like killing giants, is it just betting them down and getting into striking distance or like, what's the midday tactic for you?

Yeah, that's why I like midday is, you know, you can get waiting for that prevailing wind to kick up a little bit. And if I'm on a herd with the bull that I want Then yeah, that's half the battle. Right. And so I like to let them get laid down and, and stop moving. And so there's these variables that are in your favor now, right. With, with bodies that, because that's what, that, that's what will get you is these periphery elk that are bumping around and moving around and they start barking. And so when everything lays down and is a little bit more calm and they're sleeping, then I'll crawl up in on them and find success that way. And other times where I've killed some really nice bulls from 10 to 1pm is in the pre rut when they're still cruising. And once again, testosterone levels are at season highs for these bulls before they're breeding. And so they're a little bit more aggressive. There's a little bit more sense of urgency for them to find cows because tis the season. Right. And so these bulls are. Tend to be the easiest to call in at that time of the year in that type of situation. And so I think, you know, whether you find a bull that's searching for Cows, whether it's 9am or 4pm you're able to kill them. But I, I like the, the afternoons going back to the herd situation because a lot of the variables are now in my favor with them bedded down.

But when they, I mean like you talk about bedded down versus like getting up and letting them come to you, I'm assuming that like play that. That's deducted from like let's look at the situation they're in, see how the wind plays. And if I can get close, I can get close. If not, I'm going to try this evening. I know kind of where they're going to go or at least move. And so that is probably depicted like putting words in your mouth here, but it's like, it's kind of depicted on that because I'm trying to get like the listener. Okay. How do I know if I should stock midday or wait till the evening? A lot of guys will wait till the evening. They're going to start moving and moving towards you. You know, could just be like how the cows are all posted, right. If you get those situations where some of the sentinels are just kind of out on the fringes and it's going to be tough to get anywhere near there them. It's, it's one of those like maybe we just wait and see if, when they get up if the situation improves. Just trying to clarify.

Yeah, yeah, no, that, that's exactly it. And I'M never. I'm never gonna, like, go wander around the middle of the day. Like, if I have a play, like, if I, you know, morning time, I'm up on a vantage or in. In a zone where I can, like, see what's going on and get a feel for where they're gonna go bed or how much they're moving. Like, morning time for me is more of a kind of a sit back and watch and see what happens. And then a blatant play. Like a, you know, it's very black and white that these elk are going to lay down. And then I'm like, okay, do I have any terrain to work with? Okay, maybe I do or I don't. Do I have a good wind? Like, are they on a south or west face where I have a nice prevailing wind? Okay, I do. So. Okay. It's probably time to make a stock because I have some favor. You know, some of these variables that are in my favor. But if. If anything's iffy mixing of the wind or they're on the backside of a basin and that's swirling. Like, a lot of times you'll see elk like to move, like, on an east face or a north face, and if you have a southwest flow or a west flow, then you have more of the swirling, which tends to be more of the case when it comes to hunting elk, because that's why they bed in these places. The wind is mixing. And so situations like that, like, I might get close and try to anticipate where they're going to come out for. For the evening, but I'm not going to, like, crest a barrier and get in a iffy area for the wind. I'm going to stay in a prevailing. I might stay in the sunshine to make sure that those thermals are coming up if the elk are below me, and vice versa. So different ways that you can control where you're sitting and how you're positioning. So. So the variables are in your favor. And so it's. It's completely situational. But once again, if. If I can get within, you know, striking distance to. To one of these cows. So say I'm hunting a herd bull and one of his cows is laying there or feeding or whatever. If I can get within striking distance of that cow, and I have variables on my side like the wind and cover, then. Then I'm good. Like, that's a successful day, that's a successful hunt, that's a successful stock. And. And then I'm relying on that bull to get up and check that cow at some point in time during the morning or afternoon, which usually happens. And then there's. There's my window of opportunity to capitalize on shooting that bull. So that's. That's usually what ends up happening or what's running through my. My mind.

I like how you just boil it down. It's so simple. I mean, just. Just walk up and shoot it, right? Like, it's that easy. Did you look back at, like, the last last five years? I'd be really curious to hear, you know, what mistakes have you made? And maybe you could tell a story, give a scenario of, like, you know, something that went wrong that you probably could have fixed. I mean, there's a lot of. I wouldn't say mistakes. A lot of things go wrong when you just made good execution, but it didn't work out. But is there any, like, mistakes you made? Like, I wish I could have had that one back.

Yeah. Oh, definitely. I think three. Three years ago. One specifically. I never published anything or posted anything, but I completely convinced this bull was 400. And I saw him the first day, and the first. The first moment I saw him, that was his most killable position that he. He was in for the. The remaining six days. And I wasn't aggressive enough. I knew better because I knew he was killable, but I was like, let's hang back and just see what happens and let's get some footage. And if I really wanted to kill that bull, I should have just been like, there. He's. He's here. It just. And I'm. When I'm referring to the most killable, the, the geographical terrain, the wind, the weather was ideal that day. And. And so that was just the case. And then the. The private, public border. Right? So you're dealing with the border, and he didn't come off of private every day. And so that one day, that first moment, that was my chance to kill him. And I never. I never saw that. I never had an opportunity at that bull again that hunt. And then I went back in the next year and I didn't see him again. I didn't hear of anybody killing him. So I don't know what happened to that bull, but. But that's one I think about. And that I'm like, I should have had him. But, yeah, that's hunting, right? I mean, that's just.

Do you think you act different when you see a giant, like a mega?

Yeah, I think as a. As a young Dan, yes, I would have been losing my mind a little bit. But. But now I mean, it's my focus, right? I mean, that's what I'm looking for is, you know, something of that caliber. And so I'm business, right? And I talk about like on, on the podcast with Brian, hunting angry. And you know, we laugh about it, but it's just determination, right? And you have a goal and you're focused on this goal, and, and so that you're, you're all business. And so, yeah, it's exciting. I might be shaking a little bit more, I can tell you that.

I love this concept of hunting angry or like being aggressive. Like, you just like, get this, this is the moment. Like, it's all business, right? Like, get, get it done. Make it happen. Make it happen, make it happen. And I love that. Like, get it in your head. In your opinion. Like, where does confidence lie in elk hunting success?

Man, it's such a fine line, isn't it? Because it's by feel, too. But I feel like it's, it's way easier to sit back and watch that animal and be like, do I have a play or do I not? Should I go for it or not? That's way easier than being like, okay, it's time to go. Let's go kill. But, but yeah, there's, there's such a fine line between reckless and confidence. And so I think to, to gain that confidence and to gain the experience, you. You've have had to have been reckless at some point in your past to. To learn.

So true.

Yeah. And to understand what's happening. And you blow stocks and you blow situations, and that's part of learning and, and getting a feel. Right? Because, you know, we can, we can talk on the Elk Collective and try to teach people on how to hunt, and you can lay it out there for them, but it's, it's. Does this individual really have the feel of what's going on out there and how to move and when to move and when it's time and, and it's so hard to teach, isn't it? I mean, it's, it's so challenging to, to just lay down a blueprint for somebody. And this is how you're going to kill a bull in this situation? Because every situation is so different, but it's, it's. Once again that. That's what I feel like I've, I've prepped my whole life for, is for that situation. And on the video where I came killed this bull, one of the comments was, man, I feel like if you would have just taken your time a little bit More you could have made a better shot and got, you know, a more clean of a kill. And. And it seemed just a little bit rushed.

Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, okay, let's. Let's think about this because, you know, what I was doing, it's all subconscious at this point now. I don't think about what I'm doing. I just know what has to be done. And. And it's easy, right? It's easy for somebody to. To be at the computer. I mean, yeah, but, you know, maybe I didn't, and I said it in the video, but there was 75 head right behind me with a nice seven by seven that I was wanting to kill that was right behind me. And so I. I knew I had this window, right? This really small window, and I haven't really witnessed the situation before, but the bull that I ended up killing, his cows wanted to get to this big herd, and they didn't really care about him. Like, he didn't really have control of his cows. And so I knew if they got to that big herd, my chances just plummeted. Right. If I were allowed that to happen. And so my response to that would be is that I saw this window that I needed to capitalize in, and so I acted swiftly. But I don't feel any portion of. Of my shot execution or the stock was a bit rushed, I would say, like, from when I went from at that tree to calling, and I knew that he was moving and that I was. I was completely abandoning the calling. Well, you know, I went for it because he was moving, so I was going to move. And I'm vulnerable, right. To get seen. And. And honestly, what I was relying on is his big top end that I was going to see. That that was my gauge for where I was going to see him at the crest of my. Of the hill, and that I would see that big top end that he had before the cows would see me. And so that's. That's the gamble you take, right? It could have easily gone the other way, but I. I gambled because I had the wind in my favor and I had the COVID in my favor, and I knew it had to be done. And so it seemed rush, I'm sure. But. But there's always.

I, dude, I don't know. Like, I, like, it was like, oh, killers kill. Like, it's just like.

Yeah, I didn't.

I didn't even phase me or I didn't even think about it, like, to. To give context for anyone who hasn't seen it, definitely go watch it. But you're, you're there. You kind of got close. You made a number of bugles. He was responding and it's like basically trying to call him just to get a peek. Maybe he would come over and take a peek. And then if that's, that's not working, you know your shot clock's going off. I, I, you can see it in the video. You're like, this isn't working. I have to adjust. And then you see him and he's like, he's just out of range. And you're like, I can close the gap. When you find that opportunity where a bull is within bow range of the crest of a hill, that's such a rare, that bull is such a rare opportunity. It's like, that's the moment you run. You leave the camera behind, you leave everyone behind. And like, we got to cover 20 yards. Like it's a sprint, right? And you're battling this like other elk are looking at you probably in plain view. And so you're like battling this. But it's like you sprinted up to the top of the hill and that bull's coring away, which means he's getting farther away. And you have this rare opportunity where you can draw and stand up. So rare. And the cows can't see you. And so like, yeah, it was just all those things pulled together and your instinct was like, it has to happen right now. And that's a really good instinct. And to your point, like, I don't think a lot of people have that yet. It takes a lot of at bats. It takes a lot of knowing that or screwing that situation up, to be frank, to like, know how good that opportunity was easily could have drifted away from you within seconds.

Yep, yep. Such a small window. His cows could have been in between him and me as well. And I would have nothing. I'd be laying there in the sage brush with nothing, which is fine. And I would have kept hunting. But, you know, the cows were on the other side of him or below him and he was hanging back. And so, yeah, it's just bow hunting is a game of seconds and inches, isn't it? And it's just, it's mind blowing. Like all these little things that if they're just not perfect, you're going to fail. And usually on every hunt, you have these little moments to capitalize in. And it's probably just like in life too, you have these moments where if you have the know how and you're prepared and say you make an investment, and you can make, you know, a fortune. But if you don't know how to do it, it's not going to happen. And if you don't understand it, it's not going to happen.

You're not ready.

Yeah. You're not ready for it. But fortunately, I mean, for an elk hunter, I'm not worth millions. So maybe that's unfortunately. But fortunately, I understand those little windows of opportunity and capitalizing on them are vital if obviously you want to harvest and take home meat. So.

Yeah, and I think it is, like, it's just being in the red zone a lot. I wish, you know, like, you had mentioned it's really hard to teach someone what to do. You also have to be aggressive. You have to get in the red zone and, like, just operate in that space to, like, see those opportunities. And a lot of times they'll pass you by. In the early days, they passed us by, and it was like, it's just like, dwelling on that. Like, gosh, if I would have just, like, walked around that tree, I would have just whatever. And, you know, I. I remember when I talk about it, it's, you know, the 90, 10 rule. You go 90, let them come 10. But sometimes it's. There's this 1% you have to force, right? You'd have to, like, walk around the tree. And so many guys would call in bowls and just not have a shot and then wait for that shot. And they. They don't understand the shot clock. They don't understand, like, things are about to blow up. I have to make this happen. And I. I remember talking about this in my course, and it was like, Guy, he messaged me afterwards and was like, I did the thing. I called the bull in. I didn't have a shot. And I drew back and just walked out. And he stood there and looked at me, and I got it done, you know, and it's like, yeah, you have to sometimes just have that killer instinct for that 1%. Yours was that sprinting to the top of the hill to get to break into distance and then making a quick shot. Well, execute a quick shot. And it's like, that's. That's what has to happen. You have to, like, recognize those opportunities. And that takes being in the red zone. So be aggressive. Get the red zone. And then sometimes you have to be ready to capitalize quickly, because if you think about it for half a second, it's over. Like, it's just gone. Like that. That moment had passed. And I. I can think of a lot of Those I have in my, you know, 20 years of elk hunting, it's like, oh, you know, one second was the difference between shooting an elk and not. And it was like it slips away.

Absolutely. And you know, it's not like we capitalize on these, you know, I talk about capitalizing on these small windows, but it's not like it happens every time. Like it's still very challenging. It's not like I, I kill every animal that I'm trying to kill. Like it's, it's not reality of it. But yeah, just to re reiterate, what you're saying is the more you do it, the better you're going to get at it. And, and it's, it's literally that simple. And you're gonna fail. You're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna, you know, not that 400 inch bull is going to get away from you or whatever, but that's hunting and that's a lifestyle we live and that's why we do it too.

And you know, like, to play devil's advocate, because I will say the, the flip side of this argument, I remember a Wayne Carlton video from years back and he talked about, he's standing there with his bull, I think it was a Roosevelt. And he was standing there and he talks about like sometimes you call these bulls in and you know, they give you the opportunity, if you wait, they'll give you the opportunity. And that's really understanding watching that body language. But that's, that's being in the red zone, that's knowing elk. And I've been there too, where it's like a calling an elk and like it doesn't feel like there's a shot clock. It feels like, you know, the seven, seven, seven by seven you called in was a great example. Like you could read the body language. And I think everyone should watch that video. And like that elk never really spooks. Like he's just around and you know, if you were trying to kill that bull, it's pretty evident. Like you're probably gonna get another shot. It's not one of those scenarios where you gotta like calcul, right? It's like he's just there. And it's really good to understand that body language of those elk and understand when you're going to get a shot and when you're not. When the shot clock is ticking, you know, like you, your internal shot clock was going off on the big bowl because it's like, we got to make this happen. But on the seven set, seven by Seven. You can clearly see that. Like, I think if we just let this play out, you're going to get another opportunity.

Yeah, very valid points. And it's just so vastly different from spot and stock hunting and calling an elk in because, you know, when you're spotting and stocking, you might have like a tiny window. But that's why I like calling elk in too. Is, is usually not only are they going to be closer, and so your odds just skyrocketed because you can get within 30. That's huge. And, and then you, like you said, if you have the variables, then you, you can, you just need to be patient and wait for that angle or that shot to develop. And you know, being able to manipulate a bull when they're up close, if he hasn't made you out is, is definitely something that can be done as well. And you might get several opportunities like that seven by seven at, at that bull. And so, so yeah, it's like it's two opposite ends of the spectrum, spot and stock. You have to like, have this mentality and calling an elk, you have to have this mentality and you need to like, be able to flow in between and so you don't end up rushing something or making a mistake or shooting what, whatever. So, and, and that once again, there's a fine line to capitalizing on a small window and being reckless too. And, and taking a shot that you shouldn't be taking. And so understanding that too is, is something that's important. And you know, I, I get this all the time of, well, well, what's your effective distance? Or, you know, how far will you shoot? And it's like, man, every situation is so different. Like, yeah, I can shoot foam at 100 and, and be good. And if an elk is in the right position and it's the right circumstances, I could probably do that as well. And so you have to just like, for me, especially with video, like, I don't like shooting far on video because I think it's a bad example for being a bow hunter. Like, why we do it is to get close. And so I like to get close. The closer the better. But like, if it's not, if it's not 70 yards or under, I won't even consider a shot. And if it's 60 to 70, it has to be the perfect situation. And that bull that I shot, you 65, so that's kind of on the longer end of what I like to take, but slightly quartering away and head turned, looking the other way. I consider that an Ideal situation with a light breeze right in my face. And so that's why I chose to, to take that shot. Otherwise, I, I like to be much closer and, and it's more thrilling anyway if you're closer. And so I, I think that's something to keep in mind too, is like, guys need to like, give themselves like a hard line. Because otherwise you could shoot at 120 yards too, in the perfect scenario and probably kill something. But yeah, that's probably a whole nother podcast to talk about that.

Yeah, Yeah, I mean, like, I agree. Because in the heat of the moment, if you don't have a hard line, if you're like, oh, I'll, I'll see, I'll. I'll be dependent. Trust me, I know how that goes. You'll, you'll, you'll make decisions that are, you know, not what you wanted, then you regret it, which is worse. But I, you know, I'm kind of the same way. I have a pretty hard line of where I will and won't, you know, follow up shots are another thing. You know, my bowl last year I shot at 65. And actually it was funny because I came out, I think I ranged at like 68. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna take two steps, get to 65, and then I'm dialed. Right. So I was like, as I'm stepping, I'm dialing to 65. Bull. Completely. Didn't even know I was there. Right. Made a great shot and then made a follow shop at 104. So, like, being able to shoot at 104 is great. And absolutely 12 ring them in 104 again. Would not make that shot the first time. But like, as a follow up shot, absolutely. Dude. Yeah, it's, you know, going back to this, like a whole experience in education. I want to talk a little about the L Collective. You guys have the L Collective, Great course. Learning, whatever, all these things. And like, I'm a huge believer is like, man, invest in the knowledge. The more you can learn, the more you can build your own systems and build like this knowledge base that you have from other people. We only get to elk hunt. I say most of us get to elk hunt a week, a year. Some of it's a little bit more. But like, it's really hard to become a chess master when you play one year, one week a year. It's just not realistic. So the more you can think about it, work through different plays, systems, all these things, the better you're going to be and the more time you can spend around elk. So it's very tough to become great when you play a week, a year. So a huge proponent of, like, doing these E courses, these things, learning what you can, but applying it. You know, the difference is, like, go in the field and apply those systems or those learnings that you have and try to develop before you get there. Because my pet peeve is the biggest mistake people make is, like, they listen to these podcasts, they listen to your podcast, they listen to YouTube or watch YouTube videos. They get out there and they're like, they didn't really have a plan for all that knowledge. And so like, it just kind of like, goes to waste, so to speak. So don't waste your year. Make good plans. Make all those things. But people want to check out, obviously, your YouTube video and your podcast and the elk collectives. Where do they check that out?

Yeah, yeah, Eastman's Hunting Journals YouTube channel. That's where we're posting our beyond the Grid videos. That was the. The first video to our. Our new season coming up here. I think we're on season nine. So, yeah, check it out on YouTube. And then the collectives are available on Eastmans.com we have the deer collective as well, which is. For now, it's mule deer hunting and everything. Mule deer hunting. And then the elk collective, of course. Course kind of what you highlighted. But. But, yeah, it's just. It's content that. Man, I. I wish I would have had some of this knowledge when I was a kid, because it just would have. It would have shortened the learning curve so much for me. And so if you factor in all these guys that are on there, including yourself, that it just. It really just expedites how quick you can, like. Like, get in the game and apply these skills and then. Yeah. Figure out what's going on up here for you. And getting on top of that so you can capitalize on your strengths and work on your weaknesses as a hunter. That's ultimately what it is. So, yeah, get Those collectives on Eastmans.com use code SAVE50 and you'll get 50 off for your listeners. And yeah, yeah, it's. Times are tough right now. I know. Economies. Yeah. And it's not 2020 anymore. Everybod has a little less money than they did in 2020 with all the free money.

Yeah. Save your money for gas because you need gas money to find big bulls.

Exactly. Exactly.

Well, Dan, thank you so much. Congrats. Awesome job, and best of luck this season. Everything you guys are doing.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Alrighty, guys. Thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your husband hunting putties. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's a hundred percent free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes. Or you can check our website www.elkhunt201.com.