EH Case Study – What Went Wrong?

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This is the Elk hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode of the podcast brought to you by Onx Hunt. Such a great tool. Use it constantly. And if you're not an elite member member yet, you need to consider it because it's has some great tools for researching, planning, and making sure you have hunts for this fall. If you want to get into hunting, you want to have better hunts, go on better hunts, get Onyx Elite has the tools you need to plan your fall. From hunt research tool to access to hunt and fool memberships. All these tools that are able to help you plan and figure out this hunt for the fall. Really tough to do. And I know a lot of people struggle with hunting out of state or finding new areas. They kind of keep doing the same thing because they just don't know how to figure it out. Onyx Elite membership will give you tools that'll make you a better hunter or at least put you in better areas to get more at bats. Use the code TRO when you upgrade your account to Elite and you'll save yourself 20% off. All right, today's episode of the Pod, brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light, and simple. Drew and the team have been dominating the lightweight backcountry tripod market. And now they're, they're taking on the shooting tripod space as well and the Bipod. I mean, some really, really cool products coming out. I'm absolutely love seeing these guys crush it. And Drew, Drew's a madman. Comes up with really, really cool stuff, and I think it shows. So check them out if you're interested. You're looking for a new tripod, a bipod, whatever you're looking for, check out tricer.com they make great gear. Great group of guys. Love them, love to see the success. Tricer.com use the code TRO save yourself 10%. All right, Josh, welcome to the podcast, man. How are we doing?

I'm doing great today. How are you?

I'm doing good, man. And you had reached out and we were, we were talking about kind of this, like case studies. And I love, I love this concept because, I mean, you could listen to all these podcasts, but until it's like, applicable to, you know, a situation, it's hard to apply it. Right. And I think the more we can do like as a podcast to like try to apply, apply it to the everyday man, if you will, of like, hey, here's a scenario, here's how you think about things. I think that's the most beneficial for a lot of people and you kind of touched on that. Outside of the podcast, we're like, hey, no, I'd love to hear thoughts on this. So that's what we're going to do today. We're going to roughly, roughly dive into it. We don't have a hard script on like a case study, but we've done this like kind of a couple times within podcasts and I know people enjoy this piece of it, which is a long intro to say welcome to the show, we're going to talk about it. So like let's, let's back up. 30,000 foot view. Where are you at? Elk hunting wise, career wise. How long you been doing it? What's your experience level? Those type of things?

Yeah, so like a lot of people, I grew up back east North Carolina and killed a lot of whitetails and some turkeys thanks to liberal seasons, which was great. Moved out west after college and started getting into the big game hunting a little bit. Wound up moving later to Florida, moved back and got dove into it headfirst and really have been focused on elk for like the last four or five years. And mostly archery, you know, mostly archery. Elk is what I've been doing. I've killed a half a dozen elk at this point. One cow with my bow, a couple of bulls with a rifle, and the rest of the cows with rifle. So I, I feel like I've got maybe in between the 101 and 201, but I'm definitely not at that 201 level.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's good context. As, as a white tailed turkey guy, do you see the, like, the similarities between turkey hunting and elk hunting or is that fun? A little bit.

I do. People, people always say like, oh, they're completely different. I'm like, yeah, they are. You know, you're not turkey, honey. Most of the time. You're not running three miles up a hill, 2, 000ft up chasing this turkey. Yeah, but you're still trying to find him and talk to him and get him upset enough to come see you. So I really enjoyed it, you know, like that transition. I saw some parallels, but I know it's completely different. I'm not gonna say they're the same. You know, I killed turkeys most years. Elk hunting's completely, completely different.

Yeah, yeah. I, I'll say maybe I'm just doing turkey hunting. Wrong. But like as an elk hunter who came to turkey hunting, like that's, and you know, a lot of the places I used to turkey hunt, I used to hunt these Miriams basically in the same place I would elk hunt. And they were very few and far between. So to me it actually ended up being very much just like elk hunting. Yeah.

So similar to you. You know, I really like turkey hunting. I like to make it a bit, little bit further. So I spend a lot of time chasing birds in the mountains that aren't there. But that's one aspect I love about is the adventure. Shooting yard birds. I mean it can be fun, but it's not something I get excited about anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

All right, so let's, let's talk a little bit about this year and archery season. How to go pros, cons. You know what, like what, what could you learn from or like, I guess just give us the, the kind of 10,000 foot view. Now we have a 30,000 foot view.

Yeah. So I moved to a new state, Montana state. But yeah, I moved to a new state last fall. So this is my first year as a resident being able to hunt. I moved after hunting season the previous year and I came into this year with the approach of elk wise. I was going to focus on not killing an elk necessarily this year, but killing an elk every year. So I bounced around a lot. I wanted to find like what units do I like, what terrain, what's good, some good areas. Where is there a lot of pressure where they're not. And I also had a limited entry deer tag and antelope tag. So I was a little bit busy. So I knew like elk, I couldn't dedicate a week or two weeks in a row. But with that in mind, I did jump around a lot. And then when I found elk, which was a lot of days, I would say, okay, I'm just going to try to kill the day and go for broken. Probably not the best strategy long term, or, sorry, best strategy for this past year. But for I think long term, it really helped me figure out where do I want to focus my efforts moving forward.

No, I, I think it's a great, I actually think it's a great strategy and it's to me kind of the right move. It's like, okay, how do I set myself up to be 201 and not just try to get lucky? I honestly think this is the biggest mistake people make is they, you know, they like, find one area and they don't want to move around, right? They, they like, think like, like, oh, this is it. And I think this is also very, very true for people who have kind of hunted one area for a lot of years. And I think I take the same micro approach. Even though I go to a new state, say I only have like one unit, right? I'm still bouncing around for a couple days to try to figure like that, that area out, what part of the unit, right? Instead of just, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna search, I'm gonna hunt this place and this is where I'm gonna hunt. And I go into that unit and I just, like, put all my eggs in that basket. It's not really a, a viable option. When you look at a state like Montana can be very, very difficult because you have, I don't want to say infinite options, but you have too many options, right? There's, there's more options than you have time for. And you know, similarly, say, you know, a lot of parts of Colorado, you have like a general tag and you can hunt a bunch of different units. It's easy to, it's easy to go one of two ways. One just be like, well, there's, you know, I'm just going to go here because that's what I've kind of figured out, or to bounce around too much. So there's like a fine line. But I would say, as a general rule, I think that's a great option. You're like, hey, I'm gonna bounce around a bunch and try to figure out some areas. And what that does, in my opinion is, you know, if you only focus on one, it's easy to just like, okay, this is what it is. And sometimes you get those moderately good spots, like, that's, that's the real dangerous spot or dangerous piece is like, ah, you kind of saw some elk, but it's really not worth hunting. Like, if you knew all the other places it wouldn't. You're like, this isn't very good. And I think that's really important for the new hunter because you don't know what you don't know. And a lot of times you're, you're like, well, is this, is this how elk hunting is? I see one elk every five days. Like, is that, is that normal? Is that good? Is that bad? And so, like, by bouncing around a little bit more, think it gives you the ability to see a lot more country, a lot more elk habitat, and just try to find a good area. I Think there's pros and cons to it as well.

Definitely, definitely. Like I said, for me it was, you know, I've moved up here, my wife and I settled down here. We know we're going to be here for a while. So it's, hey, let's, you know, let. What can I do to set myself up for success, you know, the next five years, next 10 years, rather than I gotta kill this year.

So. Yes.

So part of that was, you know, one of the things you always talk about is getting your at bats or getting in the field. So I also approached this year saying how can I squeeze out as many days as possible? And my job is a bit flexible, so I am able to work, start work earlier and get off to the afternoons. Where I'm at now, I can actually hit some of these spots nearby for a half a day and at least start to figure out if there was elk there. So the, the situation that I wanted to talk about just one of those afternoons, that's how it started out. Yeah.

Yeah, let's dive into it.

So, okay.

So.

So, yeah, so it was September 18th. It was like a Thursday. And I had my parents come to town that week. But like I said, I was able to work early and I was like, I got an afternoon off. I'll run up this spot that I've been wanting to look at. Probably not great. It's a pretty heavily trafficked area, but this place is a little bit out of the way. It's a canyon that's about two, two and a half miles long. And it's about 2,000ft from the top to the bottom. So it's, it's steep. It's steep. It's a little bit nasty. There's some dead fall in there in a lot of places. And then you can really only access it either by the very bottom or you can come in from the top from a road that's nearby. Or there's one spot where like halfway up there's an old logging road. So I wanted to check this spot out. I wanted to figure out if there was elk in this location so I could hunt them in the future. Maybe this is a spot I can keep going back to. And you know, it's probably not the best, but if I see elk there, if I get elk there, it's. It's giving me those at bats and those opportunities to make something happen. Yeah, so the first night I go in there, I didn't see anything, but about an hour before dark, this bull bugled off in the bottom, he's about 1500ft below me. And I was at the very top. So I had this decision to make of do I drop down and try to kill this bull. But the whole way down between me and him was deadfallen. There wasn't an easy place at this section of the canyon to really get around it. And I was also worried about the wind switching when I got down there. And so I just decided, like, hey, I'm gonna sit up here. I don't think I can get to him. He's not super responsive. You know, it's one of those deals where he, he bugled. I waited three or four minutes, I bugled back, and he popped off again, you know, four or five minutes later. So he wasn't super fired up. But at that point I just decided, hey, I'm stuck up here. Let's. Let's play with this bowl a little bit and see if we can get him fired up. I wanted to honestly work on, you know, as people call, like the slow play, where you slowly build that bull up and get him more and more excited. I've heard you talk about this, especially with like afternoon bowls. So did that and he got fired up. It was great. It worked incredibly well where he got out of his bed and started trying to come up that hill, but kept hitting the deadfall. I can watch him down there. I was glassing him up and he just decided he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't going to come up. And it made sense. So I backed out of there. And then I couldn't hunt for about a week. Just like I said, my parents were there, had stuff going on. I was a little upset. Yeah, yeah. So, no, but it was, you know, it was good. I, at that point, the next weekend, I thought, okay, I could hunt this bull. But it's one spot, it's heavily pressured. There's probably going to be people in here on the weekend, or I can go check out this other area that has a lot more terrain or places where I've picked out that I think they'll be elk. And so I did that. I, you know, took off on Thursday night, got down to that other spot, and by Saturday afternoon, there was a forest fire about 100 miles away. And the smoke just rolled in so thick that I was like, I don't want to be in here.

Yeah.

Even health wise, you know, I don't want to breathe in all this nasty smoke. So I was like, where can I go? And I just thought, hey, that bull was in there. You know, he's pretty deep. Let's go see if he's back there. So I was. I decided to take back. Or I decided to run back up there that afternoon and get up there that night to see if he was still in there before I dove down into that canyon, since it was so nasty. And when I got up there that night, I went in on this logging road that's on the map. It's halfway up the canyon, and it said half the elevation. And I said, okay, that's an easy way for me to get in, not expend a bunch of energy. And I won't be on the main road where if I'm bugle into this bull just trying to find him, he'll think it's a hunter, necessarily. I can also glass a little bit and worked in there. Nothing happened. Bugled probably three or four times over the last hour or two of daylight and then waited 30 minutes after it got dark and hit one more bugle. And he popped off again, which is great. And he was. He was pretty much in a really similar spot, like maybe a quarter mile away at the bottom of where he was before. So I decided to back out that morning or back out that night so I could hunt him the next morning. And I'd be one more time on the way out from a different finger ridge. So I could really pinpoint where he was, you know, triangulate him. And I had him in there at that bottom, and I said, okay, I'm good to go. So, of course, you know, didn't sleep a ton that night because I was like, I've got decent chance of this bull. And worked in the next morning through the bottom and before dark, bugled a few times and got nothing. So waited a while, calculated a little bit. Nothing. Waited a few, you know, three or four more minutes and bugled one more time. And he actually sounded off halfway roughly up the hill to where I was the night before. Um, so he was above me, and this is where I was. I was a little bit. I. I couldn't decide necessarily what to do. I was a little bit. Had some indecision. Kind of like, man, if you're chasing an elk straight up a hill, he's going to beat you every time. Yeah, but. Yeah, but it was the only play I had. You know, it's Sunday morning. I'm not going to find anything before I got to get back, like, Sunday evening. So I looked on the map. There was a little knoll up there on one of the finger ridges, little bench and I was like, he's probably up there. So I went up far side of the ridge so he wouldn't see me or smell me when still working down. Got on his level, bugled a few times, and nothing. So I thought maybe you shut up. And I crept into that flat, and it was just covered in rubs and like, four or five big beds that I could see. So I knew this was, you know, fresh rubs, too. There were some that were definitely there in the last two, three days. So, hey, this was a. A decent spot to find him in the future maybe. But I was stuck, you know, same thing again as a new hunter. Like, I didn't know what to do at this point. I was like, this bull's not responding. And I shouldn't say new hunter, new elk hunter, but this bull's not responding. He's not really acting like he wants to play. What can I do? And I just thought back to that night where I encountered him before and said, maybe if you just sit down here and slow play him again, he'll get fired up. So I did that, you know, called some cow calls, you know, mixed in a few bugles, got a little bit more aggressive over, like, 20 minutes, did some breaking. And after about 20 minutes, he did bugle, and he was once again about 400ft above me. And I was like, oh, this is. This is going to be rough. But I kept working in with that slope. Like, he would just walk up, back and forth up there, bugling. It would never come down. So finally decided, hey, I gotta go up there. And I got nothing else to do, or I got, you know, no other options today. So took off up there, and he just kept that three or 400 yards, you know, above me the whole way up. He went up and over that spot where I actually called from the night before. So way up on top. And then he dropped over the other side. You know, the wind at this point is switching. It's rolling uphill, so I can't go back after him. And he just shut up and took off. So that's sort of the cape.

What's the timeline there? What's the what. What time of day?

Yeah. So first got him around daylight and got up to that knoll and got him fired back up, like probably an hour, hour and a half after daylight. And then by the time I worked up and over, or by the time he worked up and over as I was chasing, it was probably 11:30 or noon. So it was all morning. But he was. He was in there. Yeah.

Okay. And the question Is like, how would I have played it differently?

Or what was. Yeah, yeah. I got a few questions, you know, one is, I just wanted to get your thoughts on was this a killable bull at any point over those, you know, three days? And then second question was, you know, how would you play this differently? Or where. Where was a point in this where I could have done something different? And like I mentioned, this is really nasty, steep terrain with some rugged blowdowns. So it wasn't easy to run up and down it. But on my way out, I ran into a lot more logging roads that are on a map. So I do think, okay, next year, this is a place I could hunt after work and use some of those locking roads to get in it quicker and easier.

Yeah, for sure. So I'll start with a story of a similar experience that I had. It was a good learning experience for me. And this was circa, I'm gonna say 2013, probably 2014, maybe. Yeah. Nope. Yeah, 23. Let's call it 2013, plus or minus.

Okay.

It doesn't really matter. So I. I'm night bugling, and I locate a bowl down in a hole. Similar, you know, pipes off once. Probably after I bugled two or three times, he pipes off once. Let's test his temperature. Give him five, ten minutes, pipe off again. Minute and a half, two minutes later, he pipes off. I was like, all right, he's not super hot. Kind of same feel you had. And. And this is like 10 o', clock, 10:30 at night, so it's well past dark. And. And I'm like, all right, wait a little bit, Google. I play this bowl. I'm just gonna say 45 minutes, and eventually he's pretty hot, right? And I'm like, man, that bowl's hot. Let's get there in the morning. So look at the maps, figure it out. And I get into that bottom in the morning, and I check probably an hour before daylight, he's still down there. Perfect. I bomb in there. And as I'm like, you know, it says it's daylight. I didn't say anything. Didn't want to, you know, lead him that was coming in. So, like, daylight comes, I rip one off, and he's, you know, two, 300ft above me. It's like, ah, no way. And he's going up, right? And I'm bugling at him. And again, we're chasing elk uphill. Good luck. Clearly, lots, lots of signs. So I'm like, it's probably a herd of elk, right? And I'm like, he's running from me. So I just keep getting more aggressive, more aggressive thinking, like I got to turn him around. You know, early days I thought I could fight every bull and he goes up over the top and he shuts up, you know. So the question is, did I scare him away or was he just going that way anyway? Which I've learned a lot of. Like, just because a wearable is, doesn't mean he's going to stay there. Sometimes, you know, as a Roosevelt hunter, a lot of times those, those elk like to hold up in pockets sometimes. Like that bull you were talking about, maybe he was holed up in that pocket. But you also have to understand, a bull could go a mile and a half just for shits and giggles, right? Like he could just, there, maybe there's a wallow over there, and he came from a mile and a half away to use that wallow that afternoon and was there. And maybe it's a coincidence, right? And so never assume that he's just holed up in a pocket. And when I heard that story, you know, the lesson learned is like, where he is in the morning, where he is in the afternoon may be different, right? Like, maybe he's just going up to the top. Maybe he's bedding somewhere with good wind, you know, Like, I try to like, think about those variables and I don't know if that's the case where you were. But, you know, I, I, I would be constantly thinking about that, you know, and to go back to when you first found that bull, Very common, very, very common, like layout, right? Like bulls down there. He's trying to come up, you know, whatever, you know, he's, he's hung up, he's not coming. You don't have time to get there. Classic scenario. The next move that you would make would be like, oh, I'm gonna be there in the morning, right? And then he's up top. A couple things, like if it's a, if it's a solo bull, he may go up to the top. He may have been up there for four or five hours looking for you, right? Like he just could have climbed the mountain just to see what was going on. Especially if you bugled twice from two different locations. You know, you gotta understand, in his mind, he's like, oh, shit, there's elk up there. Let's go investigate. So if he is a satellite bull, that's a scenario that could have played out while you were sleeping or trying to. And then you go back down in the bottom in the morning and he's like, well, what the heck? You know? And I'm not. I'll give you all the answers to these problems, or at least what I would do. I'm not gonna say it's the answer, but, you know, all these scenarios kind of play out. But I would. I don't think I would have played any different getting him fired up. Like getting him fired up. The only difference between me is I would have neglected all feasible duties to be there the next time and trying to figure out how to define him. So how I would have played it the very first encounter, you know, you get this bull, he's fired up next morning. Honestly, it's a flip a coin whether I go on the bottom. I've just been burned on the going down too many times because if they're anywhere above you, it. You're kind of screwed. And so I probably either would have went back to the exact same spot unless I really thought that blowdown was going to be a problem and that's why he didn't come up. Then I would have tried to get below that blowdown, but as high as I could and come in laterally. Again, that's kind of difficult. But I think at the end of the day I probably would have been back the same spot located. And, and there's. There's a couple different plays. One is if you can be there at daylight, great. And that's an awesome move. But so many times that doesn't work and you kind of screw things up that way that I tend to not rely on it unless I know I can get there. So if I can get there two hours before daylight, find him and get to him within, you know, striking distance at daylight and him not know I'm coming, that's an option. I'll play that. But if, if not, I'm more curious to where he's gonna go and if I can keep him talking, right? So say I go back to the same spot, I locate him again, and I'm assuming he's probably came up to investigate in the nighttime. But if not, say he's in the same spot, you know, can we keep him talking? At least he'll get a point to where he's. He's going somewhere. So then I can strike at 10:00am Right? I, I like that 10 to noon for that play. Especially if I can get him going in the morning where he's like fired up and like he's ready to go. It's just too many times when you try to strike at daylight, you know, they're they're moving away. They're headed to his. He's headed to his bed. He's going a certain distance, and it's really tough to keep up with elk in those situations. So I tend to prefer to just wait and figure out where he's going and try to go back and meet him there later in the day. I just, I don't know. The older I get, the more that, you know, it appeals to me sometimes. I'm not saying, like, never strike at daylight. I oftentimes will strike at daylight if I, if I can manage it. But, you know, that 2,000 foot canyon with a lot of blowdown, I just don't, you know, I. Low odds, very low odds of a daylight approach. And more likely on something's going to happen and he's going to shut up and disappear and I won't be able to find him, you know, and then there's. There's secondary plays there where it's like, could I get him talking midday? Probably. Um, but if I can keep him keep my distance and keep him talking all the way to his bed, so I'm not threatening him, that tends to be my play. Um, I just have more success there. But again, like, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat. Does that make sense? I'll kind of touch on the second piece of that for that. I was curious what you thought on that.

Yeah, no, I, I think that makes a. A lot of sense. That's one of the things I've looked at, you know, as I've broken this down over the past several months. One of the things that I've thought about is, hey, I went into the bottom. And I'm sure that if people go in there, one of the ways that they get in there consistently is through the bottom. So they may be thinking, he may be thinking, okay, that's probably a hunter or more likely to think it's a hunter bugling. Whereas when I came in halfway up, you know, and got back in there, it's more likely to. It's more elky terrain, more likely to be an elk than a hunter. And to your point, he may have gone up. If I had gone back in where I was before, I'd be halfway up the mountain. It's a lot easier to come down on top of him or wait, you know, wait. Wait until he beds. And he, he may have just bedded on that knoll because there was a lot of beds and a lot of rubs. I may have pushed him out of there. So, no, I think that yeah, like you're saying I. I could not take off that Friday morning, the first, the first time I found him. Otherwise I would have. I thought about it, you know, I was even. I was texting my wife because if I had dropped down there or if I had taken off the next morning, it was going to be a bit of a pain getting out and yeah. Dealing with my, My parents coming to town. She was trying to tell me, hey, just go do it. Don't worry about it. But I couldn't take off the next morning. But that would, that would have been the best. But yeah, I think I really like your perspective of if you're up on. If you're up on the hillside, you can find him again. He may have come up there, but also you can work down faster than you can work up.

Yeah, I mean, that's a big piece of it. You can go down so fast, but you can go up very quickly. And like, I think those elk are expecting it. I think, you know, we're kind of taught that, like, elk like to have the uphill advantage in a fight. Right. And like, that's. Yeah, that makes sense. But man, I don't know.

Like.

And I, I will use that from a, like, come in parallel perspective. Like, that's usually the play. But I think in some of that big steep country, they like that because when stuff's coming up from the bottom, like, they can just hear it so well and they can see everything and like, they can just, like, they can escape so much faster. Like, I think they really like that play, but they're also weary. The other thing about that scenario where, like, he just went up and over. My gut tells me her to cows. Like, he's got cows and they were just going and he was just following. I, I don't, I don't know for sure, but that tends to be. That scenario is a lot of times you'll. He'll be answering you and going away. It's because she's going away, right. And maybe she was super spooky and she knew, you know, bull coming from the bottom equals human. I don't know for sure. But I, I rarely like coming in the bottom of those scenarios. I'd rather be on top, mainly because I could move faster. But I do feel like, yes, it's less threatening, which is counterintuitive. The whole fight argument. Right. Like, most people would say, like, you don't bugle into them. And I wouldn't bugle at a bull all the way in from above. That's just Asking for him to push away. But I do think that, like, being able to locate from above again, I think that's a much more common scenario for a bull to, like, come over a ridge and bugle and, like, you know, see what's in the basin. Don't bugle your way to a bowl from above, but, you know, make the loop come in laterally. That's a, you know, very realistic scenario in an elk's brain. That's just kind of. I mean, how I would play it differently. And then the, you know, the scenario where it's like, yeah, so you do go on the bottom, okay, and he shuts up again. He's probably right there, that side or the other. I don't. I wouldn't necessarily give up on it. Even if he went up over the other side, you know, I wouldn't back out and, like, start over either. Like, hit the ridge or, you know, for whatever reason, he's still. I'm still assuming he's there, and I still think he's a killable bull. Like, even if he shut up, he's still a killable bull. And a lot of times I can get those bulls talking again a couple hours later. So let it. Let it calm down. Let it, you know, sort itself out. Come out a different angle and try, like, that bull's right there. And I think that's a mistake people make is they get any scenarios like, feels like you push the bull off, but, man, I've killed a lot of those bulls just keeping the pressure on. Or, you know, another scenario I would do is like, okay, I think he went over to this side. Like, maybe we bumped him up over. Let's just circle all the way around this, and let's start the slow play over. Like, start it up and slow play it for an hour and see if we can get him talking in his bed midday, depending on how hot it is and things like that. But, you know, generally speaking, they are right there. You know, sometimes they'll bounce farther than you think. But in that thick, steep country, they tend to just go up over a ridge and find a different set, you know, a different pocket. And they may shut up for a bit, but, you know, September 18th, 20th, whatever it is, like, they don't shut up for long. Like, he's got to be right there. You'll find him again. And that's like. I think the play. Most people screw up, they think they screwed it up. They push it like the elk was moving away, and then they give up, you know, like, ah, he's gone. Let's go find a different one. And a lot of times you can turn that bull back up and on. A lot of times, you know, you can get him pretty fired up again. And I think sometimes, like, pushing on that bull for a couple hours, even if he did go away, I honestly think that plays into it. And, like, they get more aggressive that second time.

That's. That's. That's a good pointer. That's interesting, just because I have encountered this situation before where I could see it was a bull with a few cows, and, you know, you bugle and he does the classic take his cows and run. And I tried to chase, like you're saying, gone up and over, and then they disappear. And I've. Most of the time, I've actually, like you're saying, backed out or said, okay, can't get this one today. We'll work on it later. But I haven't really stuck with that and said, all right, I'm gonna sit on this bull for a couple hours and then try to work him back up from a different angle or I'm going to come around the other side. I think that's. That's something I haven't done that I will try in the future is, you know, not just be aggressive, but be persistent. If they haven't seen you or smelled.

You, and even if they have, like, honestly, this year, I was on a bowl. The one. The bull Jeff Helm killed. That bull found him, you know, glassed him up. Open country. I slipped in. Long story short, I, you know, got caught by a cow. They all bump, right? And he had shut up. I, you know, like, I watched him go up and over. He was not saying a word. I don't think he knew I was there, but the cows knew something was up, and they were. They were gone. And a lot of times that's. That's the key is a lot of times it's not him taking his cows to leave. He's. If he's that rotted up, he's dumber than a box of rocks, right? Like, it's the cow that's taking him, taking the bull away. That. I think that people get that confused a lot. But in this scenario, it's like they all run off. I never heard a thing. I listened and listened to try to figure out where they went. Couldn't hear anything, But I knew if I got on the other ridge, I crossed the canyon again, and I glassed our glass and glass and glass, and I'm glassed 45 minutes. Finally, I see A cow. And I'm like, haha. And it didn't take long. Once I like found the area, I could see him running around and it was like, okay, he's back up. So this is, let's say two hours, two and a half hours. Not that long after, I just bumped these out pretty hard. Like cows barking at me very, like a hard bump, right? Like, didn't. I don't know if they ever smell me maybe, but like hard bump. Two hours later, this bull is just running around screaming, right? And I hike over there. I mean, it's probably almost two miles over there. You get over there just below him and I can hear his bowl going nuts. I couldn't from where I was glassing him, but he's going bananas. And I was like, this bull is 100% killable right now. And it's like I just had to turn him back up and you know, the wind and everything. I never heard him from across. I never heard from anywhere until I got close in that same pocket. Sure enough, he's going bananas. And like, all I would have had to do is slip in there and, you know, make aggressive bowl, you know, bull sounds. Probably would have killed him if I probably could have just slipped in and getting close but never give up. Because so many times, like I've pushed on those bulls and pushed on him, even on elk that seemed to just push away, push away, push away. And one thing I like to do that's really helped in those scenarios where I'm dogging that herd and this is a great scenario in the mornings, Elker pushing back to bed, you're following them and just like you can't get that damn thing to turn around and fight you. Like, I'll start raking and raking and raking and like, move closer, rake, rake, rake. And it's when you hear it in their voice, he'll get, he'll start to get aggressive with you. That's when I like that raking seems to bring them back. The other thing is, like, sometimes you have to just push until that cow gets to where she wants to be and then he'll come back, right? And so you never know how far that is. Could be a mile, could be five miles. But a lot of times if you're, you know, just pushing on them, eventually they're going to stand their ground or at least get into a pocket where they're comfortable. The cautious thing there is, generally speaking, that cow's taking them to a back eddie in a wind pocket or somewhere. Like they want to, you know, they want to have full sensory advantage. So what she'll do is she's taking them to a spot where she know that that wind's going to back out of your swirl and do something funny. But sometimes you can push on that bull, push on and push on him. And then when you catch up, you know, the cows are down and you can get him to come back and fight you and you'll stay out of that back eddie, which is, you know, it's kind of a heavy 201 through one tactic. But you know, it's, it's a fine line between knowing when that's going to happen and whatnot. But I don't know, I tend to think I can hear it in their voice. Like you can hear that change in aggression from when he's moving away to when he's like he's coming back to you tend to get a little more aggressive. Tend to have that challenge bugle feel to it when he challenges, you know, back at you. And you know, but if you keep pushing them, the other tactic is like, if he doesn't, if they don't, you know, if you lose them, I always just assume they're right there and then try to slow play it again and just get him to talk. Midday.

Makes sense. Something you touched on that I'd like to tear apart a little bit more is the wind. So the morning when I went in there, one of the reasons I chose the bottom was, okay, the wind's going to be coming down, there's a creek in the bottom. I can approach and my wind's gonna be blowing out. So I know he's in front of me. I know the wind's in the right direction. When you come in, you know, mid slope or if you come in from the top of the mountain. Morning, what are you doing to try to keep your wind from blowing down to him? Are you staying one finger ridge over? Are you staying on the back side? Is there a certain, like, distance you like to use? But if, if you were to, you know, that morning that I went in there, if you were to have came back in on that mid slope rock logging road, how would you sort of plate it to make sure you're not pushing your wind down to him?

Yeah. So the thing to understand there, like it's a good reason to go mid slope. And I think, you know, people always assume like, oh, downhill or morning equals downhill. You know, afternoon equals uphill. But like almost never does it happen in the downhill. Right. Like it always, like you always catch up to him right in that flip when it's just going everywhere. And so that's kind of a benefit to the mid slope play is you can, it's, you know, it's still going downhill. So ideally you're, you're kind of mid mountain with him. The other part of that is like, he's gonna want to move to a pocket, you know, in that swirly. And so trying to hit that mid, let's just say like 9:00am, 9:30am to 11:30am is always like, really tricky. I think I like the mid mountain that for that reason. The other thing is like, don't overthink it. A lot of times, you know, there's a lot of ground between you and him. So if he's way down there, you know, you can get away with a little bit as far as like, you know, oh, the wind's kind of going down a little bit right here. Like, I shouldn't get too close. I mean, if it's dense timber and you're 500 yards away, you're probably okay, right? Like, I mean, we've all kind of gotten away with murder on the, on 100. At 100 yards, it's like, wow, how did he not smell me? But then, you know, the flip, you know, one flip of the script and like you're 200 yards away and they bounce. So it's like just understanding, like you gotta be a little, take a little bit of risk. But it's more about, where am I gonna catch up with this bull? And not necessarily like, what is it doing right now? What's it going to be doing when.

I get to this bowl?

You know, am I really trying to play this out? You know, I'm getting in there an hour before daylight, but I might not, you know, get a chance at this bowl until 10:30, 11:30, hell, maybe noon, you know, and like trying to figure that out or maybe it's this evening and so not putting yourself in a position where you're going to give up the rest of the day just for that morning because it feels like it's a low probability now. And that's just kind of that scenario. Because in my head, it's low probability that you're going to be able to strike early versus say that that's going to take part of the day and you're going to end up, you know, either on that bull at noon or on that bull at four in the afternoon or six in the afternoon, you know, whatever. Like that team. That to me feels more likely. But with that said, you know, as you're approaching. Yeah. You can always get on the backside. You can, you know, backs have a finger ridge or whatever. You know, you usually get up high and that you're going to have a predominant wind that's carrying, you know, if you're up on those ridges and whatnot. So, you know, what's the predominant wind doing versus being the bottom right.

Makes sense. Yeah. No, I think there's a little bit of a light bulb on the. For here for me. And it's, it's sort of in the theme of what I was trying to do this year with kill in future years. But at the same time, I was trying to kill bulls when I found them in that morning. What you're. What I'm hearing is I tried to kill at first light. And so I set myself up to say, hey, if I'm going to kill this bull at first light, here's where I think he is. I'm going to be in close. Everything's going to work out. When in reality, even though I knew where he was the night before four, thought I knew the general area he would be, I should have gone back to. I'm gonna kill this bull over the course of this day. The best place to find him again and then find a spot where he's killable would be to go in like mid slope or up top again.

Yeah, I really like that. And I really like, you know, just understanding like, I'm gonna kill this bull. I don't know when, but I need to. I need to set myself up for the most chances and not screw something up. And you know, I used to, I used to do a lot of like, locate bulls at night and then be like within striking distance at daylight. And at. What happens there is you end up chasing a lot of elk because elk, if you're hunting public pressured ground, elk are moving, generally speaking, five minutes before it even daylight. You know, sometimes you'll get like five to ten minutes right at daylight. And the scenarios in which I would still play that card today are, you know, it's pretty open. Like they're in some feeding. They've been out feeding all night. And it's just that good mix of broken terrain. And I know kind of roughly where they're going back. I can dog that herd and maybe get a shot in there, but like big, thick, steep country. I don't love daylight strikes, man. I really don't. It just like if they're going up, you can't keep up, you know, and then you can't hear very well. Like, all of it doesn't. Doesn't equate. So there's a few scenarios where I would still play striking distance at daylight. Most of that is, like, if I think they're going to be feeding there. If I understand the herd dynamic a little bit more, you know, all of those things are going to play into it. I really. I really don't even like the strike at daylight if I don't know if it's a single bull or cows, you know, like, that to me, is like, you know, maybe you spend a couple days trying to figure that out, and then, like, I know or, like, where they're going and where they're coming to. Like, when I think back to that Idaho scenario, it took me a couple days to figure out that these elk were going down to the very bottom in the. In the morning, all night, and they're feeding in these bottoms in these, you know, big canyons. And then they go all the way back up, and they bet on top where the wind was, like, just swirling like crazy. And so here I am thinking they're in the bottoms, like, every morning I'd be there. Well, their. Their clock was, hey, we're going clear back up to the top. Good luck catching us, you know? And then they'd start their way back down in the evening time. And so it was like this routine that they did. And when you understand that, you're like, oh, okay, that's not the best place.

To strike at all.

Like, I need to either catch them going up or down or maybe try to hit him midday if I can get the wind right, or pull them away from the. Pull them out of that, you know, wind vortex. But the. When I strike matters. And just, like, trying to, like, okay, when's the. When's the best place to strike this bull?

So what does it look like those two to three days when you're sitting back and trying to figure it out? Are you. Are you literally glassing these elk? Are you just trying to listen to them? Like, what? You know, walk me through or tell me a little bit about, you know, how you approach, learning their pattern? Because I think that is more of 201, 301 approach than one on one.

And I think it's like, you're not. You're not just sitting back, right? Like, if I could strike, you know, let's go back to the first day. Let's assume you and I go out after work, and we. We locate a bull. I'm gonna try to strike, but I'm Also, there's two. I. I want to save it for tomorrow, so I don't want to mess up his pattern or whatever. So I may, like, slip in. If I don't. If I don't like it, I'm gonna back out, right? And that's another reason in the next morning, I know probability is low that he's going to be exact same spot probability is low that I'm gonna be able to run him up the hill or do anything from the bottom. So, like, let's just go high again and play it safe. You know, that's me saying, let's be in the game but not screw the game up, right? So let's go high, just figure out where he's going, what he's doing, right? So now we have two pieces of intel. We know where he is at daylight or an hour before daylight, and we know where he was last night at 5:30pm like, okay, pretty good data. And then we, like, if we sit back and say, like, let's see what he does from an hour before dark to an hour after dark. That tells us a shit ton, right? Like that. Now we know, okay, he's going up into this pocket, like, sure, sure. Acts like a herd of elk, not like a solo bowl, right? And just like, trying to dig up all these little pieces and like, oh, let's go midday, see what he does. And like, let's go push on him a little bit, see if he gets aggressive but not screwed up, right? Like, we know what the wind is at noon or 10. Let's see if he, you know, see if we can keep talking. Like, let's get 500 yards from him and see if we can get him fired up in that pocket. And we got a little more intel. We're like, okay, he likes to go into that pocket midday. He's coming back over here in the evening, but. And then he's going down here in the mornings. Like, now we kind of got a little bit of a pattern. The next day, he'll probably do something completely different. But, like, you're always trying to, like, leave that bowl for one more, you know, like, not screw the game up, but be in the game. That's kind of the balance.

Makes sense. Makes sense. You're never putting yourself in a position where it's like, this is. Is. Sorry, shouldn't say never. But until you feel really confident, you don't put yourself in a position where you're like, this is either gonna work or I'm gonna blow it up. You always stay on the sideline. Yeah, right there. Where you can observe and benefit. Be within striking distance. Yeah.

And sometimes you. You're gonna have to get aggressive, right? You're gonna have to force it. Right. You know, if we get close and he's going, but yesterday he went right to his pocket. Seems like he's doing the same thing. Let's. Them. Let's try to keep up with them. Let's try to, you know, get him to come back or whatever. And, you know, maybe you blow it up. That's fine. We'll figure it out. Or I'll find another one. You can't be scared of blowing it up. But you also gotta, like, balance that, like, stay in the game. You want to be able to, you know, some, like, let Serendipity hit you in the face, which is like, I gotta be close enough that if he makes a mistake, I can capitalize. And I think, you know, some people will sit, too. And I've done this too, personally. Guilty, like, sat too far back and been like, oh, I just see what he does. And then I can't hear him, can't find him. I'm, like, out of the game. Or, you know, I've been there, where it's like, let's just sit back and watch. And you're like, gosh, if I was right there right now, like I said I was gonna do, we would have killed that bull. That's gonna happen, too. But at the same time, you know, you know, stay in far enough that you're not gonna bump it, but, like, letting Serendipity hit, right? Letting luck, Lady Luck, you know, have its way. And if you're in those moments where you're, like, close enough to be in striking distance, it's like, okay, like, oh, look where he is right now. He's held up in that pocket. Let's. Let's go. Let's run. Let's make a run at him. And, you know, maybe you screwed up on that run. That's fine. Um, but trying to, like, just take. You know, when we talk about at bats, you shouldn't swing at every pitch, right? But, like, you need to be in the box to be able to swing at good pitches, and you need to swing right? So, like, you gotta swing at some pitches. Uh, and that's. I think that part of learning is learning out that gut intuition of, like, which was a good pitch and which wasn't. Which was a good time to strike, which wasn't. And, you know, I tend to think going low takes you out of the game. A little bit sometimes. You know, maybe it's the right move. Maybe we figure, like, maybe he just stays down in there and that, like, you call him in, that could very well happen. And I think if I had a couple days of data that said, man, he just loved that bottom. Maybe those cows are down there. Maybe they're eating that grass. It's cool if it's hot. You know, they may stick in those bottoms, and that's where you got to kill them. You know, in that case, it's like, maybe the only time the wind is good in that bottom is daylight, and that's when we got a strike. So I'm not saying it's never, but going bottom tends to take you out of a lot of things. Like, there's just, like, so many other variables that could happen. Instantly you're out of the game. So it's. It's. It's something you could do. It's like, if we had data that said, like, man, this bull really likes this bottom. You know, I've had that happen. And, you know, maybe you slip in there when the wind's good. Right? Well.

Yeah, I. No, I. The first year I. I started hunting elk, I was definitely too timid. You know, I was used to whitetails, but it was like, oh, you couldn't get away with anything. And from your podcast and just your old theory of, like, hey, be aggressive in the beginning, I got aggressive over the last several years, and it's led to success. Like, I definitely look at a few situations where I've killed elk, where other people may have been, like, you know, that was the wrong move. But doing something aggressive, whether it's just walking towards them, calling aggressively, whatever has worked. And I think that I'm learning, like, you just mentioned of, okay, aggression at the right time. So staying in that, in the box, being able to hit those pitches, but you don't have to swing at everyone. You don't have to put your eggs all in one basket and go on the bottom. So. Yeah, I appreciate the advice. I think there's a lot that I can apply to, you know, future goals. Hopefully this coming fall.

Yeah, I mean, like, it's always balance of. Like, this balance of patience and aggression, right? Like, that's. That's the art that is out hunting is like, the balancing those two, when to strike and how hard and how aggressive to be. It takes, you know, it takes a lot of time to figure that out, to. To feel that out. And you gotta screw it up, right? Like, you gotta, like, go out there and I think that's, you know, when I tell people you gotta be aggressive early to figure out that line is because if you're too timid, you'll never find the line, right? You'll just kind of just walk through the woods and not get there. And so you got to figure out what you can get away with, which is tough because I don't want to like, promote just like blowing alcohol at the same time. But, you know, that's how I learned, honestly. Like, you know, I'm not telling anyone else to do it, but how I learned was screwing it up a lot, right? Like being way too aggressive, you know, and I, I was fortunate or unfortunate. Like I grew up hunting Roosevelt, so you can just be very aggressive. And then, you know, when I started hunting in Idaho and just taking that aggression, thinking it was the same thing, you know, it was good because, like, it, you find this line of what you can get away with and what you can't. But that's what, that's how I learned, right? Like it's being too aggressive and screwing up a lot of elk. You know, I at least was fortunate enough to learn an era when like, you had way more opportunities, right? Like, you know, it was just the at bats were a lot more consistent. And so that's the, that's the, that's the balance, right? That's the art of elk hunting, if you will, is like learning patience and aggression. And you gotta be able to grow that gut intuition just by doing it, by screwing it up. And hopefully other people can learn from, you know, certain mistakes. And there's so much nuance is kind of the difficult part, right? It's like, you know, everyone, every scenario is very, very different. And it's not. There's no recipe to success per se, but there's like good frameworks, like, if you follow, I think that'll help people. But yeah, I don't know, I'd be curious. What's your advice, you know, to your. Yourself starting out, like, what do you wish you knew?

If I had, you know, if I could take what I learned now and go back then I think one of the things that has allowed me to be successful is what you just touched on. Being aggressive but being very process oriented or taking a logical approach to it. So, so I'm not saying, you know, I'm not advocating obviously for people just, you know, okay, there's. The elk will walk straight at them even though they're downwind. But what I've noticed is that when I'm finding elk, when I'm finding deer, turkeys, whatever, is that if I am able to look at the situation, say, hey, there is an opportunity possibly for me to kill this animal, but I gotta hike all the way around here. I gotta crawl in, or I have to, you know, take the extra time, whatever it is, if there's a logical process where I could get a shot, then go for it. And that has led to a lot of success. And then I guess the other thing with the line that really I would. I would stress myself, that I've learned in the last year or so is what you can get away with in the moment, because coming from the whitetail world, you know, if you move at the wrong time, they explode and you don't get a shot. And the cow I killed with my. But last year, I mean, she was staring dead at me. She was 45 yards away. I draw back and there's just a tree limb across her vitals. So I just take two steps, kneel, and she just stares at me the whole time. And I get my shot off.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think, like you're saying be aggressive within a system, within a logical approach. Don't blow them out, but if you got a chance that you think you can kill them, go for it.

Yeah. One of the things that, you know, I always. I've said for a while, and it's like this 9010 rule, but then I added the 9010 one, which is like, sometimes times you have to just force it, right? You have to like, get ballsy, step out, make the shot. And I sense that. And it's in the course. And a lot of people have messaged me and be like, dude, I had a scenario called this Elkin. And I thought, like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm not gonna get a shot. And in my head, you were there, like, just make it happen. And I stepped out. The bull just stood there and I stepped out, got a shot, killed my first bull. And I was like, yeah, sometimes it happens. And I. I like to relate a story. I was chasing a bull one time, good bowl. Chased him a while. Didn't have shoes on for a very long time. It was not, not fun. And I finally catch up to him for like the fifth time or whatever. And I'd been dogging this herd for a while, and this bull, you know, he's right there, 45 yards, and it's just like stacked, just stacked trees, these little, you know, I don't know, two inch round trees. And I'm like, he looks right at me. Like, I just came over the hill, and I just draw, and I start slowly walking, right? I'm like, surely I'm gonna get a shot through, like, one of these. And I just keep walking and, like, stepping. And this bull's just looking at me, you know, and I'm like, window, anytime now. Window. You know, and it's just like it never happened. I probably moved 10 yards within 45 yards of this bull, and this bull just looked at me, and I was just like, eventually, I'm gonna get a shot. Eventually didn't work out. So sometimes it doesn't happen. But it would have been a much better story if, like, I, you know, made it six yards and then, like, there was a tiny window and I slipped one in. But sometimes that doesn't happen. But that's, you know, honestly what it takes. Like, I think, you know, you have to. You get around. You get in that red zone enough times, you know, and like, I always say, there's a shot clock, right? Like, stuff's gonna blow up in a minute. You either have to make the shot or you don't. Not to use all sports analogies, but, you know, making that shot happen. Most people would. When you're new and you've never been around elk, you've never been in the red zone. That's a really, really difficult. And I think, you know, this concept of, like, killers kill, they find a way to make it happen. And I think so much of that happens in that last 1%. Like, that it's difficult teach. It's difficult to do. Like, but at the same time, like, the reason killers kill is because that last 1%, which is very difficult to.

Teach, I 100% agree on that one. And I credit, you know, the opportunities that I had back east shooting whitetails and turkeys and the really high, like, bag limits, you know, I started in South Carolina. That's where I hunted a lot for whitetails. And you can shoot two bucks a day for the longest time. So that repetition and all those at bats and learning, okay, how do you kill? How do you make it happen in the moment? It is different. It's whitetails versus elk. But it gave me that confidence, you know, and your suggestions about, hey, be aggressive to do stuff like, oh, I'll step around the tree. Yeah, well, I'll just crawl behind this one bush, even though there's nothing else there. And it's. It's worked out really well.

Yeah, yeah. It's fun like this to figure out what you can get away with. And, you know, I Think I learned a lot when, you know, I have no right to be, but I was a trophy hunter early on, and I just. I loved calling an elk and love just, like, playing with them and figuring out what I get away with. And I was fortunate to be in an area where, like, you got multiple at bats a day, and. And it got to the point where I would just, like, play, you know, and try things. And I think it's tough to learn in this generation because a tags are so hard to get, but the opportunities, right, like, if you're getting a tag every year, you're getting a couple, maybe two, three at bats, four or five at bats tops a year, you know, like on. On a trip. And so it's really tough to do. I'm gonna try something here, and it might screw it up. And so that's. That's the difficult part, you know, and I. I don't know if I have an answer for that, but, like, I just trust the process. But, like, that's. At the end of the day, like, it's, you know, you just gotta. You gotta get out there, try it, figure out what works, what doesn't, you know, probably be more aggressive than you think, generally speaking. And then don't overthink it too. Like I do. We sit here and analyze these situations and. And I do know that people can get kind of like this paralysis by analysis of, like, oh, what do I do? And one of the things I personally remind myself, and I'll tell friends this is like, you know, all you have to do is walk up to and shoot it with a sharp stick. Like, that's. That's the goal here, right? And I think sometimes we overthink things. And, you know, one of the things I've had to learn in Oakland country hunting is like, don't overthink it. Just walk up and shoot it with a sharp stick. Like, that's, you know, at the end of the day, that's all we're trying to do. And so I don't know if that, you know, is confusing to everyone after, like, all this, like, detail stuff we went into, but I do think that people can overthink it and just be like, man, just go do it. Trust your gut. Do it. Do what you think. And don't, you know, don't get too worried about it. Just get those out, get the reps, get the. At best, trust your gut. Like, develop that killer instinct.

I think that's another thing that I would tell myself, you know, that first year before I started hunting elk like you're saying is act or try something because you learn from it. You know, I've learned so much more from the opportunities that I screwed up or I tried and they didn't happen than some of the times where I've sat back or I'm like, oh, it's too far. Oh, we can't get there in that first year. I do look back and say, hey, there's a couple situations I could have capitalized on. Just try something, see what happens if it doesn't work, try something else next time if it doesn't seem like it was a good idea.

So, yeah, I think a lot of people will play like, the let's try tomorrow, or like, you know, they find the bull. I don't have enough time, and, you know, we'll be back in the morning, or we're back tomorrow. Man, that has cost me a lot of opportunities in life is like, if you can try tonight, you could always back out, right? Like, you can always. It could just always not work. But so many times, man, I've been like, oh, tomorrow we're gonna crush this bull. And, like, just not been able to locate him or find him. So, yeah, like, yeah, trust. Trust your gut. Sometimes go when you don't think you should, but, yeah, I don't know. It's super fun. It's cool to hear your story. I think you're kind of on the right page, though. I think. Yeah, I don't think he did anything wrong by any stretch. A couple tweaks, maybe.

Yeah. No, I appreciate the advice. I do think, you know, learning more, seeing what those nuances are, but that idea of coming on the mid slope so you got more options rather than coming on the bottom where you're sort of. You're putting everything on him being there is. Is something I can use moving forward. So appreciate it.

And the other. The one little tip about that is like, you know, mid slope can screw you because you, like, you brushed out. You can't get somewhere fast enough. And this is like, pro tip here. Like, if you ever. You're gonna hunt an area a lot, you know, start figuring out trails. So if you get on a game trail, I remember I used to, you know, turn on my Onx tracker, and I just like, if I was midday, I'm like, I'm just gonna walk this trail and figure out where it goes, because then I have that data forever. And you'd be amazed, you know, if there's elk using a pocket consistently, they're getting there somehow. Right? And so many Times you find these, like, pretty solid elk trails. And I would just basically record them with my Onx. And so then, you know, a year or two later, you're like, oh, that bull, he's right there. Like, I could take that trail right to him, you know, and like, that's good, useful information. That's another benefit of hunting the same area, too.

Yeah, that. That actually happened when I went up chasing that bull. I was going through this blow down a little bit of open, open pines and stuff as well. But it was pretty tough getting up there and getting back down. And I was kicking myself going, gosh, you know, this. There was no way you're gonna catch this elk. And as I came back down the mountain to get to my truck, I kept hitting some more of these old logging roads that had been cut out from the side of the hill that were nowhere on the map and you couldn't see them. I just marked everyone as I went down because I was just thinking in my head, oh, if I had knew this at the time, you know, I would have came in. Yes. You know, that morning at higher up, and you wouldn't have to, you know, wade through all this blowdown to get there, because it just came walking right in, you know, really easy on those logging roads. Yeah.

Yeah. And like, there's I. I regret not recording a few because I don't know how many scenarios, you know, very much in Oregon, hunting that thick country. It was like, you know, gosh, if I would have known that trail was there, totally would have killed that bull. And then, you know, a year later, you're in the exact same scenario. You're like, ah, I know there was a trail right here somewhere, and I should try to find it. And so, like, I. I just, man, if I find a really good elk trail, I usually record it. Even if I'm like, I'm not gonna walk the whole thing. I'm gonna. Yo, I'll just record, you know, a tenth of a mile, quarter mile, whatever it is. And like, I. Then I at least have a reference, because if in the future I come back and it's like, oh, man, I know there's a trail around here somewhere. At least I have a piece of it recorded. You know, like, sometimes that's beneficial, but, man, it's really hate it when. When you know it's there and you can't find it, and you're like, if I knew where that trail was, I'd kill that bull. Yeah.

No, I think that's another good piece of advice.

So cool. Well, appreciate Joshua. Best of luck. Yeah, let me know if you have any questions or anything. I'd love to hear how season goes. So, yeah, thanks for reaching out, man.

Will do. Thanks, Cody.

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