Elk Calling, Becoming a Better Elk Hunter, Understanding Wind, and More with Trapper Trussell

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This is the Elk Hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Stone Glacier. I'm excited to tell you about the new Sky Archer 6400. It's the pack that I'm going to be running this year. And one of the things I love about all Stone Glacier packs is the fact that I can use the pack on an eight day backpacking hunt and then turn around and kind of use it as a day pack for elk hunting. Their packs are so light that you don't need a different pack for both. They can just do both. They can be a day pack and they weigh almost nothing. Love the new Sky Archer. It's got great setup for the bow, which I'm excited about for archery hunting, but again, it works great for, you know, longer eight, ten day hunts as well. If you're interested in a new pack, go check out the new Sky Archer. The whole line of Stone Glacier packs is awesome. They kind of have something for everyone. So go check them out. Stoneglacier.com Today's episode of the podcast brought to you by Onyx Hunt. If you're not an elite member yet, you really need to check it out. Because more than just a mapping service, Onyx has created an entire hunt planning system. And with the hunt research tool and on access to Hunt and Fools magazine and even Terrain X, these are the ways I'm planning better hunts. I'm going on a bunch of really cool hunts. And if you want to go on more hunts, you want to go on better hunts, having that membership is going to help you do. So check them out. Use the code TR O and you'll save yourself 20% when you upgrade to elite. Tons of great benefits. All right, Trapper. I was telling you, that's a great name. I don't know if you think so, but I feel like if you're a hunting dude, you probably are okay with the name Trapper. Like not in into hunting. Like you're a gaming kid. You were probably like, why is my name Trapper?

Right? Yeah, yeah, it was, it was. I didn't like it growing up because people always made fun of it. But now that I'm adult, I. I don't really care. And also it does. It goes great with what I like to do. So.

Yeah, that's awesome, dude. Well, welcome to the show. We're gonna talk about elk hunting. I want to say congrats on the, you know, elk calling success. So I guess if we start from the top, how did you. How did you get into elk hunting? But also, how did you get into elk calling and, like, you know, this whole competitive calling thing?

So I got into elk hunting. I was really little. We had a bunch of property here in Utah, and my dad took me up there. I mean, I can barely remember this story. I had to talk to him about it, but I. The first interaction with elk, I remember, I was about 5 years old, and my dad takes me up on the property and he starts calling it elk. And he gets this little raghorn bull to come into, like, 10ft from us, and he actually pushed me behind him and, like, backed up into a tree and just kind of sat there till that bull walked off. But, yeah, it was. It was super cool as far as calling goes. I mean, I've. I've been calling as long as I can remember, really, like, just doing it with my mouth and then eventually grabbing my dad's old bugle tube and getting into, like, the elk calling contest and stuff. I really didn't have any interest in it until probably, yeah, two. Two years ago at the hunt expo. I was working the Phelps game calls booth, and my good buddy Eric talked me into it, and I didn't know what I was signing up for, man. I. I sucked.

I was.

When I was sitting at that booth calling with those guys. Because you just called to get people's attention at that show, right? Yeah, I. I was like, man, what am I doing here? I do not sound good. I shouldn't even be working this booth. And then from there, Eric just helped me a bunch and kind of mentored me for Worlds last year.

Nice. Yeah, Eric's been on the podcast. Good, dude. And how'd you do?

She was pretty nervous.

When? First time you went up.

Oh, man, I was shaking like a leaf, dude. It was like walking out. Like, I used to rodeo back in the day. It was like going to your first, like, professional rodeo around here in Utah. Oh, man, I was shaky. I was nervous. I did surprisingly well. I actually was up against Eric in the first round, and coming off the stage, I looked at the scoreboard and I totally forgot that I was caller A or caller B. I can't remember exactly what I was, but I was looking at my or his score and seeing that, like, I lost. And then I was talking with Dirk, and he's like, dude, you did so good. And I was like, what do you mean I lost? And he's like, no, you. You beat him. And I was like, what? There's no way, dude. I don't sound anywhere near as good as him, but.

Was that a big sky?

Yeah. Yep, it was a big.

That's funny. So I was one of the judges behind the curtain, so that's funny.

Yeah, I think I ended in the top eight. Yeah. Yeah, I was in the top eight. I just barely missed the double elimination round.

That's awesome. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it's. It's totally. It's kind of a weird thing. It was fun being behind. I've been on both sides, so I've done the. I'm called on the front side, and now I've been on the back side as a judge. And, man, judging is so hard. Like, it's so hard just listening to it, like, over and over.

It's like, it's.

I mean, you really start to pick it out. I had. I had actually more fun than I thought I would. I thought it was going to be kind of brutal just listening to EL Calls for eight hours, but, like, it was, like, once you get into it, it's kind of fun. So, anyway, I want to dive into some, like, elk stories. Elk mishaps. Elk. Like, all the. All the things I would say first. Let's go and say, like, where are you at in your elk hunting? Like, you know, where do you consider yourself, like, obviously, good. Great caller. I'm sure you take that to the field, but, like, where would you put yourself as an elk hunter?

You know, just broadly speaking, I'm definitely still learning. I don't. I don't even. I wouldn't even say I'm a good elk hunter. I. Yeah, I don't know. It's. It's still. I'm still learning, for sure. I like. I like meal deer more than elk, so I focus a bunch of my time on milder, and it kind of takes away from elk hunting just because the. The hunt dates are the same here in Utah. But, yeah, definitely starting to focus more on elk.

So in your experience, like, what has been your biggest hurdle? What's, you know, what's the biggest, like, I don't know, problem you have? Is it. I mean, outside of time, like, on those things, but, like, as far as, like, why do you think you're not successful?

I would say the biggest reason other than time is just trying to find, like, a good spot. Right. Like, I. E. Scout a ton, and I've Gotten. I've definitely gotten a lot better in the last couple of years. But them first five years that I like really started hunting a lot, man, it was tough. Just kind of throwing a dart at the wall and, or at the map and just trying to go for it. Yeah, I definitely say spot and probably honestly just getting away from other people.

Yeah. And I mean, that's so difficult in a place like Utah. And Utah has every type of honey you can ever imagine. But you know, when you're talking about like you're not your premium limited entry tags, it's crowded for sure. It's like not great elk hunting. You know, like a lot of the general stuff is like not great elk hunting. So it's super difficult to become good. And you know, like you it. And I say this all the time, it's like the more at bats you can get, the, the more experience you're going to get. And that's what's so tough is in the early years when you're trying to find new spots. And I'd be curious your thought on this too because you know, some people get handed spots and a lot of ways I was like the first spots I had, like, I was super fortunate because I had older cousins and they kind of were into. They, you know, they were archery elk hunters. They knew where to go. And so like I just jumped in with them. I was like, from day one, I kind of was able to get spots, you know, handed. Handed down.

Right.

And like that's the best case scenario. So if you're new or you just don't have spots and you're not handed spots, there's like this giant learning curve that no one talks about where it's like, man, I had to go through five years to really find where good elk hunting was like. And you just don't know what you don't know. Do you have that problem?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It. So going back to the story with my dad, like I said, we had a bunch of property growing up and long story short, my grandparents sold it. But yeah, we, we never hunted public land. And so when I finally got to the age to actually hunt, it was a whole new deal. Like, I don't, I don't know what I'm looking for. Usually just there, you know.

Yeah, yeah. What, what advice would you give yourself on like trying to find new areas and maybe you're not even there yet. Maybe it's like I'm still trying to figure that pie. But like, what do you think is a good end? Like how do You. How do you get through that hurdle?

Oh, man. The best. Best advice I would give myself to finding new spots is just get out and go before season. Like, if you think a spot is good, market on onyx and drive out there and spend the weekend there. See, see what kind of signs there. See what kind of actually, like, on foot and go from there.

You know, you had mentioned E Scouting, and, dude, I'm a huge believer in E Scouting, and I, like, there's some people that like, oh, no, you don't need to e. Scout just boots on the ground. I think it's a little bit of both. And I think the real superpower comes when you can do. It's not even just you can do both. It's being able to escout and know that that's a good spot. But that only comes from, like, guess and check. So you, like, call E. Scouting a hypothesis and you're like, hey, I got this hypothesis that this is, like, a good spot for elk. And you go there and there's nothing. You're like, oh, that, like, didn't work right. And. And then you do that 40 or 50 times, and you're like, oh, this place was really good. And then you kind of go back and you start to notice patterns on the laptop or the computer, whatever, that you're like, oh, when I escouted, this place was really good. What's it look like on the computer? E. Scouting. And I said this before. Jaden and I were talking about this the other day. E Scouting is just pattern recognition. All you're looking for is a pattern, right? Of, like, this. These pieces of the puzzle equals good elk hunting. And you can't just look at the computer and determine that that's good elk hunting. But if you go there, put boots on the ground, and you, like, you know, you're. You're kind of like, okay, confirming or denying, and, like, you start to get better at that, and you do that enough times, and that's where I think it gets really good. So I think E Scouting is important because, like, I. I don't know anyone who has enough time to just scout the entire state every weekend. And, you know, like, if you do great, like, yeah, do that. Like, that's a great way to go. You'll probably find different things and better things. But, like, I don't have the time. Like, I get, you know, an hour or two a night, you know, two or three days a week, and I've just kind of gotten good at, like, okay, I could find this spot. You Know, nowadays, I probably have more. I definitely have more spots that I want to go. Air quotes here. Want to go to. Then I have time to go check.

Right.

And, like, see if they're good. So I don't know. I. I think that's huge. I think it's very difficult in the early days when you just. You're looking, staring at a computer map, and you're like, I don't know if this is good or not. Like, it's really tough to tell.

Yep. Yeah, shed hunting's definitely helped me, like, determine a good spot versus a bad spot or even an okay spot versus a good spot.

That's.

That's definitely helped me a bunch.

Yeah, I mean, the more you get out, the better, like, 100, you know, if you got time to shed hunt, like, spend time in the woods, do you think that shed hunting. I used to say that cameras are like a false positive. So, like, I used to love running cameras, and I think it's super fun. And depending on the area, some areas, yeah, sure, you run cameras and you. You'll go back in the fall, even August or September, and they're still there. In my experience, a lot of the places I used to go would be like, I could get elk on camera all summer, and then there was nothing there in September, and it was like, I would put too much time and effort into those places. Do you think shed hunting can be that way, too? You're like, man, I found all these sheds here. And then, like, guys just want to hunt that because, like, it's what?

Oh, absolutely. I don't hunt a single area that I shed. Not a single one.

Right, right. So I know. I feel like guys want to say, like, the more I get out, the more, like, you know, you. You learn, and you do learn areas, but sometimes it's just not a hundred percent applicable. Finding elk.

Yep.

Not. Not a lot replaces just time in the woods in September. Like, you know, during the rut. Covering ground, figuring it out. Yeah, Finding. Finding the gaps in people. I think that's also another skill. Like, yeah, you had kind of mentioned, like, figuring out how to get away from people. Sometimes people look at a map and they're like, I'm gonna hunt here. There should be elk. I think my number one thing is, like, I'm looking for not people, more than. More than elk. Like, the. Because it can be zero elk habitat, but if there's no people, there'll be elk there. Like, I don't know. Just one, like, little tip I found.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's so hard to get away from people here in Utah because the, the over the counter archery tags, they're unl. Over the counter. Second rifle elk tags are unlimited. Like, it's. It's kind of a joke, honestly.

Yeah. How. I mean, do you think. What. I don't know what the success rates say about the general over the counter archery stuff, but, like, in your opinion, like, do you. How hard is that tag? Like, what would you like, consider success rates to be? Like, you're like, man, 1 in 10 dudes is going to kill. I.

Man, I. I don't know. I wouldn't even say 1 to 10. 1 out of 10. Honestly, I'd probably go more 1 out of 20. Like, there's just not at least in northern Utah anyways. There's just not a ton of public land in northern Utah. And yeah, I. I just. Every camp you drive by, everyone says the same thing. Oh, there's no healthcare, there's no health care. Yeah, there's. There's definitely outcare. You just got to get out of your side by side.

Yeah. What? That's not fun. Okay, so I want to hear some stories. I want to hear some, like, either success or failure stories. You got any good hunting stories?

I got a couple for elk. Yeah.

Okay, let's hear it.

So my. I'll. I'll talk about my first bull that I killed. I was sitting at work with my buddy, and he comes up to me. He's like, hey, you want to go elk hunting after work? I got permission through this property to hit this public. And I was like, yeah, sure. I had all my stuff in my truck. So I was like, yeah, I'll go. And like, I was super kind of negative about the whole thing because I was like, there, dude, there's no elk up there. There's no way. But I was like, yeah, I'll go, because I know elk winter there. So I was like, maybe I can find an elk shed if we go. So we end up going up there and our rifle elk season starts like around the October 6th time frame. So I was like, well, maybe. Maybe if there's elk here, I can get them to bugle. So I bugled and we sat there for a minute and I thought I heard one. So we started walking in that direction and we, we dropped down this one canyon and took a break to get a water break. And I pull my vinyls up and glass up like six cows. And I was like, oh, guys, there's elk right here. One of the guys we were hunting with had a, a cow elk tag. So he shoots this cow. And I was like, hey, be ready. This, like, if there's a bull here, he might step out of the trees. And sure enough, after he shoots his cow the second time, that bull steps out. And one of the guys that we were hunting with, he's never killed anything before. And so, and I'd never killed an elk, but I was like, dude, you've never killed anything. Your first shot, for sure. This is rifle hunt. So he pulls up and he, he shoots and he misses. And then that other guy that shot the cow, he pulls up and shoots and misses or hits him or something. And I shoot last night, drop him right there. And I was like, dude, there, there's no way that there was elk here. And we just killed two of them. And so I guess the story with that one is don't ever overlook a spot just because you don't think there might be elk there.

Oh, man. Dude, one of the, one of my favorite sayings is don't hunt elk where you think they should be. Hunt elk where they are.

Oh, yeah.

Which is like, and this is, I'm guilty of this with E Scouting, right? You're like, oh, this looks like elk habitat, right? And I, I would probably bet that I get into elk more not in elk habitat than I do in elk habitat. You know, just like this tiny little spot behind town or like whatever it is, like elk find the gaps in the humans and humans like to find very elky stuff, right? They like, you know, here in Montana, man, if you can glass it, people hunt like it just like they, everyone wants to be, you know, open country, glassing. And so like, it just tends to push elk, you know, like to all these little pockets and you know, after opening weekend on a lot of places like elk are where they are. And yeah, to your point, like, it could be a tiny little chunk, it could be whatever. And like, you know, you don't need a huge piece of ground to kill an elk. It only takes one. And like you put an elk on one section, right? Like there's I, you know, it's funny is I know stories of dudes killing darn near 400 inch bulls on a single section of public ground. That is a crazy. And like most people would look right over a one section, you know, unit and be like, oh yeah, there's no elk there. Like, I mean, you never know. Like, could be a 400 inch bull living on a tiny little 640 acres. So yeah, never overlook stuff. And if anything, like I tend to lean towards that stuff now often.

Yeah, I, I can definitely attest to that. Cause I hunted the biggest meal deer I've ever seen. Like in person on like a 400 acre piece of property.

Yeah.

Of public land.

Yeah.

And I never looked at it before until that day.

Yeah. I tend to like, look at things like, man, why do I look over? Like what do I not see? Or like what am I looking over? Because. And I've gotten. I don't know if you're this way, but I've gotten this way with E Scouting where I'll look at, you know, you look at the same map over and over and over and over and over and you kind of see the same spots. Right. You're like, yeah, look that, look at that. And like, I don't know. One of these little tricks I do is I. Everyone in the world looks at the map with north up. And like I've. I've really found this with my friends too. Like have to look at the world with north up. So I'd like invert the map and look at north down or south up. And it's like you see the world like, it's crazy how different your mapping and your E Scouting is. It's like I will take all the waypoints off an area. Say, say I've hunted this area for years. It's loaded with waypoint points. My thing with waypoints is they kind of get cluttered and it like draws your eye in. You're like, oh, that's where I saw that track. That's where I picked up that shed or you know, whatever. Take them all off. Take start from scratch. And like, I'll just. And I like to take the public private off too because we tend to like look in the middle of public stuff. And I'll take it off and look sat like I'm. North is down, south is up on the map as I look at it and I just pan around. And it's funny how when the private. When you can't see what's private and what's public, you're like, oh, this is really, really good right here. And then you turn it the layers back on and you're like, oh, that was. That's private. No wonder it looks so good. But then you like start to like, oh man. But those elk, if they're using that could like go here, right. And like you kind of just look at, look at the map differently. And I, man, that's been really beneficial for me because that's how sometimes you'll look over those little tiny chunks of private or whatever. Or whatever it may be, and, you know, if you just flip. Flip some different layers on the. On X and flip the map around, like you kind of just see things differently.

Yeah, I've never thought of, like, turning the private public. That's a good idea, dude.

I really think it is because, like, I don't know what it is. Well, here's my analogy. You know when you go fishing at a lake and you're standing on the, on the bank and you can't, you want to cast in the middle of the. Of the lake, right? But when you're in a boat, you want to, like, fish the edge. You're like, this is like trying to fish at the edge, not the middle. So it's like, you know, how do you, like, flip that around? And I think it's like when you look at a big piece of public, you tend to like, you know, cast to the middle of the lake, so to speak. Oh, how do I look in the middle? And then, you know, it's like being inverted. And so you're like, in the middle of a lake looking at all the edges. You're like, oh, where's the edges that I could hunt? All right, I hope that helps. Any other good stories? Any other hunting stories again?

Yeah, I got a few. I definitely don't have bulls figured out, but I feel like I got those late season cow hunts figured out pretty well.

You're telling me that I'm like, I'd be curious. So, like, you know, stack in the freezer. Cow hunts. Like, what do you like? What's your go to?

So I hunt the. The same exact unit, the same exact canyon every single time, but they're just, they're there every single time. So I actually, me and a couple of friends combined had six cow elk tags for this unit this year. And every single one of those cows we probably killed within a half a mile of each other. Mine was probably the farthest in there, but yeah, man, that, that area, I don't know what it is, but like, I just. And maybe it's because I lived right next to it for so long, but if the cows are sitting on a specific ridgeline, I just know what ridges to take and get there. But anyways, two of these guys had never killed an elk before, and we managed to get them both their first elk, which was super, super cool. And yeah, that, that hunt and archery hunting has definitely taught me how to kind of go at stuff a certain way. Like if elk are in Front of you don't. Maybe don't go straight at them, because that might not be the best idea. You might have to backtrack and do a big loop around on the opposite side of the ridge and then pop up within shooting distance. But.

Yeah. Yeah.

With a.

With a cow hunt, like, do you feel like it's something like you kind of figured out just like a certain weather pattern or certain, you know, something like, certain time frame that those elk will start to hole in there, and it's like, you got that one spot dialed or.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I won't even hunt that. Hunt is usually. I think they changed it this year, but. Or sorry, last year. But before that, it was usually around six weeks long. And I wouldn't even hunt the first three weeks of it. I'd wait for snow to hit, wait for them to push off of the cwmus and stuff that are farther up the way onto the public land. And. Yeah, man, I. I don't know. It just works nice.

Yeah, I got. I got a spot. It's like my meat getting spot. This, like, every. If I. If I wait till, like, kind of the end of season, it's. It's totally hit and miss. But if you wait till the end of season and you can catch a storm, right? It's like you're. There's always elk in there. And it's like, yeah, I. I feel good. And I actually think it makes me a better archery hunter because it's like, I don't feel the pressure to fill the freezer, so to speak, because, like, I'm lucky in Montana, because we get to archery hunt, and then it just turns into a rifle tag. And, you know, at this point, it's like, oh, man, I can just horn hunt all of September. And I kind of have the, like, faith that, like, I can go, you know, shoot a rag, horn or a cow and fill the freezer and not have to feel like I gotta fill the freezer all September. Like, you know, feel guilty for passing stuff, which makes huge. But one of the things you said was, like, hey, not moving at elk directly. And a lot of times, like, for rifle, for sure, you know, it's like, okay, how do we. How do we pop into view at shooting distance and not get caught moving across stuff? Which is, like, pretty standard, right? You know, catching the backside of stuff. And you deal with deer. Like, deer's classic, right? They're gonna see him if you're moving. Just. That's just what it is. And so, like, trying to figure out the path to get there. Not necessarily the quickest path but like how do we get, you know, use the terrain to not get seen?

Yep. Yeah, for sure.

So what do you feel like most people's mistake when it comes to archery cutting? What is the biggest mistake most people make?

I, man, I'd have to say wind and thermals for sure. 100% and that's something I'm still learning. I feel like I'm decent at it, but definitely still learning it for sure. I, I haven't been archery hunting too long. I got my first boat back in 2019 and took a couple years like off of that just cuz I wanted to rifle hunt again. But yeah, definitely winning thermals 100%.

Yeah. What's your best advice? Or like, what's like do you have a, you have a scenario where you got busted pretty bad? What was your biggest learning lesson on that?

Yep. So me and my really good buddy were archery elk hunting and we're kind of just still hunting because our, our archery season starts in the middle of August and naturally elk aren't really going to be talking in the middle of August when it's 90 degrees at 10,000 foot elevation. So we're kind of still hunting, walking to a wallow that we know about and not really paying attention to the wind and we just hear this big crash, blow out. Just insane. Sounded like a train was coming after us. And yeah man, we realized that the wind was blowing right at this bull. We got to see him, we got him stopped at about 80 yards, but it's so thick there's no shot. And I'm not gonna take an 80 yard shot anyways. My, my buddy might, but yeah, it definitely screwed us for sure.

The real trick to when thermals, what you call wind is trying to predict. So whenever you're like I hear a bugle, see an elk, whatever it may be, and you're like okay, here's where they're going. What is the wind going to be doing there versus what is it doing here? You know that man, that is an art form. Truly an art form. And I think, you know the, I think we all think of thermals as like, yeah, they go up and down, right? You know, it's, it's getting hot, thermals going up, it cools down, they're coming up almost. It's like great in theory. It's great in theory, but like it, it also doesn't account for, you know, what are the prevailing winds doing and how is that affecting, you know, canyons. When you were talking about Mountains and thermals and stuff. If you were on, let's say, the Bridgers, which is like a big, big mountain range right out of Bozeman, it's like it's just one ridge, essentially. Like, there's some. Some veins in it, but, like, it's one mountain that, sure, thermals go up and down. And, you know, you can calculate wind. There's almost no other variables. So you have two variables. You're like, okay, wind's going up or down, or thermals going up and down. Wind's coming, you know, from the west. You can kind of predict what's going to happen, right? But when you start getting into, like, these real mountainous terrains, where it's like you have major canyons, you have offshoot canyons and all those things. So it's like, yeah, the wind's going down, but this prevailing wind is kind of pulling it all down this canyon and then all these offshoots that are perpendicular to that. Like, it could be going up or down in those canyons. And, like, that gets really hard. And I think people really underestimate how elk use a mountain. And I think, gosh, I was trying to run the book. There's a great book.

I have it.

It's in my office over there. Peddler Prey Dynamics. All faction olfaction is called. I think it's called olfaction. It's like a. Dude, it's like a college course book. And it talks a lot about how animals. Like, that's their number one defense. And, like, from bears, right? Like, it's a. It's how they. It's almost how they see. So the way we look at a mountain and we walk on a mountain, like, animals use olfaction and scent to, like, even navigate, which is crazy. When you really think about, like, the reason an elk goes somewhere, it's probably because in that section, he knows he can use his, like, sense of smell better in that area. So I always use the term. Like, imagine a trout. You know, a trout sits in a back eddy behind a rock because it's gonna swirl that food. So instead of the food just going right by, he knows, like a. He doesn't have to swim as hard to sit in that one spot, but then the food's gonna swirl right back in front of him, right? And so he's like, oh, this is a great spot to be. When you think about elk, people don't think about this fact, but, like, elk wants to be where that wind is swirling because it gives him, like, 360 foot view or 360 degree view. So if I'm an elk and I'm like man, something's always trying to eat me, I'm gonna go to the place where I can see everywhere, right? Like I think about, you know, say you and I went hunting and I don't know, we're somewhere in southwest Montana and there's grizzlies everywhere. Like we'd feel a lot better if we could see in all directions for like a hundred yards, right? Like we're not going to go down in the willows because we don't have the sense of smell. We can't see down there. And it's like you just feel nervous, right? You're nervous because there's like man, a grizzly could sneak up on me two feet from any direction. Well, that's how an elk is, you know, if he can't smell, right. That's their primary source. So where are they going to go? They're going to go to the place where they can smell everything. And that's like they sit in these pockets at the top of a drainage in the middle of the day. Cuz like the wind say the wind's coming from one place but you got thermals doing the other. So it's kind of just swirling right there. It's like a trout sitting in a back eddy. And people like don't think about that. And so there are times where it's like you can't just go at that elk. You can't go try to call him in because he's where he is. He's like he's sitting in a perfect spot and he's not going to leave it because he knows about every 10 minutes he gets to smell everything in a 360 and so he, he feels comfortable. It'd be like us sitting up on a knob and we can see everything for a half mile. We know there's not a grizzly within a half mile of us. We're not like we're not going down in the willows. So I always think about that. Which kind of plays into like how do you kill that elk, right? How do you try to, you know, get close to him if you, if you won't come out of that, that spot? Well, a lot of times like the, this is why you focus on the transitions, right? So that elk, he goes in beds there cause he feels safe. And then he's going to travel with the wind probably. So he's like, can smell everything in front of him and then he's Going to go out, you know, to, to some feeding where he can use his eyes and he can see. And so like you kind of finding those pinch points a lot of people don't think about. Like, okay, where, where are all of his senses? Kind of not, you know, not great, right? Is, does he cross a saddle where like the wind is going to be in your favor for a minute. You're going to have like a window where like that makes sense. Maybe it's like, hey, just let em get out to where they're going, intercept them along the way. All these things like you can think about. But like people, sure, they like try to get the wind right, but that's really, really hard to do when you're trying to predict what the wind is doing in a different place than where you are.

Yeah, for sure.

Oh yeah. And the other thing is like, I don't know, timing too. Like, that's why I really like, I'm a huge believer in like, let's, let's wait. Let the wind get to where it's like pretty steady or heavy, you know, that afternoon you're getting every. You'll know this as a meal deer hunter. It's like you get those steady wins in the afternoon. Man, I love those. Those are like super consistent. Right. And again, you know, let's say mid morning thermals are shifting, winds erratic at best. It's like not a good time to try to get close where it's like, let's wait this afternoon when the wind gets really, you know, pumping, then we can get close. Like it'll just be more consistent. So things like that.

Gotcha.

Yeah, lessons. So I do think like, funny how people like, they say like always hunt with the wind, you know, in your face. I just don't know if that's like a feasible thing to do. I'd be walking in circles half the places I have.

So I got a question. Kind of off topic for you.

Oh.

If you're fairly, if you were fairly new to archery hunting and you're building points for like a limited entry elk hunt, would you, would you wait until you get a couple animals killed with a bow before you burn those points on your archery hunt or would you.

Do it anyways with how many points? If you're talking like, yeah, if you're talking like, I don't know, say 10 points, whatever. Yeah, for sure. If you're talking four or five points, I'm like, you could do that every couple, you know, every five years. That's a, you know, that's still Learning hunt to me I would for sure not go on like a 10 point hunt until I killed some animals. Said like more at bats. Like I mean I'm just not gonna, yeah, I'm not gonna go burn that many points. Like every a 10 year tag becomes, let's call it a 15 by the time you draw it again, if that. So it's like, man, you're only gonna get that a couple times in your life. And I really do think that like it's super important. I think there's a lot of people who save up their points for major hunts. Like I get it but I wouldn't not hunt until then. I also, yeah, like to your point, like there's a lot of mistakes that are going to happen and not learning curve and so I hate for those to all happen on that, you know, 10 point hunt. You know what I mean? I don't know what's your take?

Well, so that's why I was asking you because I am building points and I am right. I'm at that 11 point mark for here in Utah and I'm definitely confident enough in my shooting and I'm definitely confident in my calling. I've just never really had the opportunity except for one time to set up on an animal and try and shoot it with a bow.

Yeah. But you know the flip side to it, which I could argue it either way, the flip side is like man, go have a great hunt. Like you know, you may go on that hunt and just have a blast and that's more important. And, and again like you know to like shoot a good six point bowl and be super stoked with it, have a great hunt. Like, you know, you'll find a way to like go do more of those hunts. So like it's not the end all be all. I don't like waiting. I don't like guys that are like, oh, when I, when I, you know, get, when I draw this tag, I'll go elk hunting. It's like dude, go elk hunting. Because you know what you're going to do is like you're going to ten point hunt and then you're like how do I do that every year? Like I'll find a way to do that every year. And like I don't care if I got to hunt Idaho, I got to go go somewhere else. Like you just like learn how to figure it out, right? So I don't know, a part of me says definitely try to get some experience but at the same time like draw it when you draw it and you know, you can't just always rely on those things either.

Like, right.

You know, like I, I look at Nevada. Like when I draw Nevada, I draw Nevada.

Like, you just.

I'm not gonna be like, oh, let's not draw it until I'm, you know, so good or right. Whatever. You know, all the duction row, it's.

Like, you know, and that was, that was kind of my thought process going into it is because I if when I do draw that hunt, like, yeah, there is a big chance at shooting some really big bulls. But for me, like, I'm kind of just looking for the experience. Like because of the public land situation in northern Utah and the pressure, I don't get that, that calling experience that I would like to. But I feel like with that limited entry elk hunt, when I draw it, like, I'm, I'm just kind of like, I just want to call in elk. You know what I mean?

Like, yes.

I don't, I genuinely don't really care if I shoot a rag horn bull on this 12 point tag, but obviously it'd be nice to shoot.

I just cringed. So I'm sorry. Like, I flinched.

I know it's not good. But I'm also, I'm building points in a bunch of different other states too. Like, I don't know, like, obviously I'm not going to shoot the first rag horn that comes in, but how come more guys don't.

How come more guys don't spike hunt in Utah? How come they all want to hunt like the crappy over the counter tags?

So. So the general season elk tags, you can get a spike only or any bull. The spike only. You have to hunt the limited entry units and the general. Any bulls you have to hunt like units that aren't. Yeah, obviously limited entry. I don't know why people. And I'm. I'm people, but I don't know why people. I don't know why people don't necessarily like doing the spike hunt. Maybe like for me, I want to be able to shoot whatever comes in. You know what I mean?

Nothing if nothing comes in.

Like, I don't know. I've definitely debated, like, I, I debated it this year, but I just bought a point this year because I got my kid on the way. But I'm definitely debating if I don't draw that tag next year to buy a spike tag and go hunt that unit just to learn it. Oh, and just 100 trying to see what's going on with it.

Dude, I, like, I wouldn't even, I would I would not even draw that hunt until I had done it two or three times. Like, God, if I had 11 points and it was like, I don't know, just call it the sand once, right? Like, so let's say like, I want to go hunt sand ones. We're gonna need a lot more points. So. But like, hypothetically, I, man, I feel like I, I don't want to be there because like, I've never been on a hunt the first time and left without saying, God, if I could do that one more time, like, it would be totally different, you know, and so like, for sure, mandatory. I'm giving myself mandatory. Have to spike on it one year before I go. Probably like two or three years would be ideal. Like, and I just like, no one does that. And it's funny cause I do feel like most people are like, ah, I just, I would like to be able to shoot a, a rag horn. You're like, what's the difference? To me, like, what's the difference between a rag horn and a spike? I have no idea. But I would 10 times rather be into elk, have a great elk hunting experience, see giant bulls every day and shoot a spike. Then like see absolutely nothing and maybe shoot a raghorn five point on the last day from a tree stand. Like, no interest. Like, I just. Totally different hunt, right? But like, you want the elk hunting experience, you could get the exact same experience, the almost identical experience just hunting spikes. And like, I tell people all the time, like, man, if I had, I don't know, San Juan spike tag, whatever, I don't even never been there. But if I had one of those like premier tags, I would hunt it. Like I was hunting 400 inch bulls and the first spike that stepped in the way, like was going to catch an arrow. But like, I'm not spike hunting, spike hunting. I'm not going out and trying to like cow call a spike in. Like, I am going to go, I'm gonna find a herd, I'm gonna look over big bulls and I'm gonna stalk that herd and I'm gonna like try to get close because spikes are just following the herd around too. Like, you know, if I can, if I can slip by, slip through lead cow, like, that's job well done. If there's a spike, not even spike in the group, then, you know, on to the next right. Like, oh man. Just to be in those experiences in a top tier unit, those are man, people underestimate. Those are such limited lifetime opportunities to be in a herd of elk in like beautiful country and just a giant bowl screaming. I mean, I've done this a lot, and I can count on one or two hands how many times I've been in that experience. And, like, I kind of cherish them now, but, like, only in retrospect. Right. And so I'm like, man, you can just go do that with a spike tag in your pocket. Now there's like, if I had the big bull tag, I'd be really pissed. So watch out for people chasing the same elk. But, like, be respectful. Just know you're second class. You're a second class elk tag. Like, I feel like, yes, you both have elk tags. If I had a spike tag and I'm on a big unit, like, I am a second class tag. Anybody hunting that big bull, like a hundred percent, you. You go first or you, like, I'll walk away from this herd. I'll go find a different herd. But with that said, like, man, elk hunting is about the experience. Some experiences are better than others. Generally speaking, the, like, hardcore limited entry, like, hard to draw hunts are better experiences. Not always, but, like, for the most part. Yeah. It's just crazy to me. All these Utah guys want to hunt crappy general season tags and chase raghorns. I'm like, that's crazy to me.

Yeah, I. I don't know what it is, but I'm definitely the example.

You just said, like, I'm people.

Yep, yep, for sure.

Yeah. And like, I don't know, to me, it's like, you can get it all. Yeah, I. And I. I really need to do. I want to do one of those bike hunts. Just like, I feel like I talk about it a lot and I've never done it, so I've kind of armchair quarterbacking. And I did have a buddy, actually had a buddy to just that he went on the spike hunt. And it was a unit. Like, another mutual friend had had the big bull tag. He was like, it was so epic. Bulls everywhere. Best hunt of my life. And so I told this guy, I was like, dude, get the spike tag here. Talk to Zach. Here's where you go. And he had a. He had a rough hunt. Like, it was just like, no elk, no. No talking. And it was like kind of the opposite of like the elk experience. So like, I. I don't think they're easy hunts, like any of the Even like those limited. I think they can be very difficult. But I think you're gonna learn a lot. And, you know, if I had. If I had any plans of like getting that tag ever for sure. Gonna like, go experience the unit because you just learn so much.

Yeah. I. I've only ever been in that unit to shed hunt it, so maybe I will have to do that. Just suck it up and go hunt some spikes.

I mean, you're just hunting elk. Like, you're still just hunting elk and you just only shoot the ones with spikes on their head.

That's very fair.

Like, it, like, I don't know. To me, it's like you're still like, when you hunt big bulls, I mean, you're hunting a big bull, but in a lot of ways you're hunting lead cows. Like, like, that's all I'm concerned about is like, you know, there's times where, yeah, Bulls by himself or whatever and you get a hunt just a bull. You're super fortunate. But generally speaking, like, if you want to improve your skills as an elk hunter, learn how to hunt herds of elk. It's difficult, right? It's more difficult. Like, I would love to catch a big 350 bull by himself. Like, to me, I'm like, oh, that just feels like he's a. He's a dead out. Whereas, like, there's 30 cows, you know, when they're in a crappy spot, like, that's the most difficult scenario. And I feel like if you're spike hunting, that's kind of the scenario. It's a little bit easier because you never usually to kill a spike, you don't have to get like in. In the herd. They're kind of floating around the outside. But I mean, I would love to just go treat it like I'm. I'm hunting this lead cow and, you know, there's a couple spikes hanging around, but, like, let's see if we can. Honestly, I would probably. I would probably just like, see if I can get within bow range of that big bull. And a spike's gonna like, it's just gonna be there. Like, as a dude who's on chased a lot of big bulls and had a lot of problems with spikes, like, trust me, go try to kill the big bowl. I promise you a spike will be like. Your nemesis is like. He is. You're like, ah. How many times I've almost shot the spike because it's like, please don't bump these elk again. So, yeah, I don't know. That's my two cents. If you could have one skill when it comes to hunting, you could like, be the best at. What would it be?

Oh, dude, that's tough. Ah, the best skill. Like, yeah. Oh, man, I Would say, Dang, dude, I would. Ah, man, I would probably get one. I would probably say a hundred percent accuracy on E. Scouting.

Oh, on E Scouting.

Yeah. Every time you drop a pin and you go to that spot, there's animals there too. Huh? For sure.

I didn't, I didn't even. That wouldn't even cross my mind. That's a good one. Yeah, that ch. That's, that would be a game changer just like every man. Yeah. I think you could screw up everything else and that, that actually probably be the most beneficial because I mean, like, statistically, how many spots do we go to that just don't have anything?

Oh, dude. So many. So many.

You could be a pretty terrible. You could be bad at judging when you could be virtually blind. But if every place you went to had elk and deer in it, you just like, yeah, even a blind squirrel would find a nut in that one. That's a good one.

What.

When it comes to gear, like, what do you think is the most overrated piece of gear?

The most overrated?

Yeah.

Oh, dude, I got to go like actual camo. Not necessarily like camo clothing, but like actual, like camo patterns for sure.

Okay.

I, I don't, I don't think, like, yeah, you hear all the stories of people that, oh, well, I kill something every year in my Walmart camo or, oh, my grandpa did it in jeans and a flannel for years and like, yeah, that's cool. But if I'm hiking five miles into the back country, I want to be comfortable, so I'm, I'm gonna wear the comfortable stuff. But I don't hardly ever wear camo pads.

I, Yeah, I, My only thing is, like, what's the cost of it to be camo? Like, you know, guys will make, Guys will buy a thousand dollar bow for like a 1% increase, you know, like a 2% increase. I'm like, the camo is the same price as the solids. So like, what's right? Yeah, like, and I get like quality gear for sure. Like comfort, you know, you can use. Generally speaking, you can get away without camo, but that one time that it's going to matter. So I don't know. Yeah, I, I, yeah, go either way on it.

And that, that could just be like the rifle guy in me, but like, I'll, I'll. My base layer when I'm archery hunting will be camo, but usually like, most everything I have is just solid colors, honestly.

Oh, and for rifle. Yeah. Like, yeah, there's no need to wear camo. For rifle, it's the archery. Like, archery. Elk hunting. Yeah. Especially if you're calling like, if you're calling like, like just seems like a low, low cost to like, high upside to me.

What's yours? What's, what's your most overrated?

How did I find a new one? I don't want to say boots because I feel like people nerd out about boots and like, spend a lot of money. And I do, like, I don't know, there's like, it depends on how crazy you want to go. But I, I've haunted a lot of elk and tennis shoes, you know, like, so I do feel like people, like, put a little too much effort into boots.

That's fair.

But I'm like, if you're sheep hunting or like, you're backpack hunting, then, like, boots matter. Yeah. I don't know.

It's probably. Yeah. I mean, I, I killed my, I killed my bear in Montana and tennis shoes. So I, I get it. I don't, I definitely don't nerd out over boots, but I do like a good pair of boots versus a hundred dollar pair of boots. For sure.

Yeah. My thing is like, last year I, I still want to finish this case study. So last year, you know, last minute bomb to go hunting, throw all your stuff in the truck and typical, like, I forgot I was. You forget one thing. It was boots. And so I forgot boots. I want to back up. I, I, I, I like my laponias. I run laponias a lot. Great boot. Like, I will actually intentionally run like my speed cross. What are they are Solomon speed track, speed cross for whatever. I like those because they're cheaper. Like, if you're gonna wear like my problem with boots is like, I wear them out. So two things. I like running trail runners in scouting season because I actually, I have like ankle issues, so I want my ankles to be tougher. So I would rather not have a boot until I really need a boot and then I will wear it. But I also am like, oh, I could ruin these 50 shoes versus, like putting more miles on 300 boots. So it's like when I think about boots, it comes down to like a dollar. Like, what's the dollar per mile that I get out of a boot? And it's like, man, I, the Laponias, if you can get them on sale for like 230 bucks, I mean, you're getting down to like almost sneaker price, like hiker shoe price. And you know, like, they don't last forever, but I for sure get 230 miles out of. So I'm like a dollar per mile is kind of like, like, so this is how my brain works, right? Is like, okay, so if I had a $50 pair of ASIC running shoes, like, do I get 50 miles out of them? Probably. So anyway, last year I go for just a quick rip to go elk hunting. Forgot my laponias, didn't have any other boots and I was like, oh, dang it. So ended up stopping by Walmart to get a bunch of food and stuff. And I like walked by and they had Ozark trail hiking boots and they were $40. I'm like, first, this is a great experiment because I want to, I guarantee I'll get 40 miles out of them, you know, like for sure, 40 miles. So they cross the dollar per mile limit. But like, how uncomfortable are they? So I still have them and I like hunted. I think I'm up to like 50 or 60 miles in these boots and actually warm around in the winter a little bit too. So I'm like, are they, are Ozark trails the best bang for your buck? Now I will say they're not very comfortable and I would not like if I had a hardcore 10 day hunt, like lie solely on these, on these boots. But I do feel like if you're like scouting, whatever, like just trying to like put miles on, I don't know, I feel like it's a decent, I don't know, price per whatever because I just feel like boots are so expensive and I've been through them like crazy. It's like, it's just, it's a legit cost when you're a hardcore hunter for sure.

Absolutely.

That you buy a 400 pair of boots and they don't last a year and you're like, I don't know If I got 400 miles out of those. Like, I don't know, kind of.

I don't know.

That's one of my pet peeves about boots.

Fair enough.

I tried the Ozark trails. We'll see if they go. I'd be curious. Anybody else, like, you guys can leave a comment if, if you think Ozark trails are worth 40 bucks. 40 miles. I mean, if you're like, if you get 80 miles out of them, dude, that's, that's doing pretty good. Like just as a, I don't know, scout, picking up trail cams, like all that stuff, like those type of things, like, I feel like that's where you wear out your boot so much, is you're just doing a lot of miles. For like, doesn't really matter. So anyway, yeah, any. What's closing piece of advice? Maybe touch on elk calling. Like, what's your closing piece of advice on becoming a better elk caller?

Oh, man. I would say, honestly, just. Just practice, man. Best piece of advice for elk calling, obviously practice. Watch YouTube videos of the sounds that elk make and just try to mimic them. You don't have to get super fancy as far as calling goes. Like, as long as you sound like an elk and not like a fluty too, I think you're going to be okay.

Do you. You know, when you talk about competitive calling, one of the benefits I think there is is like getting used to creating a routine instead of just calling for calling sake. Or like, it's almost like a comedian set, right? Like, you. You, like, you have your set. Here's what I'm going to do. And I kind of have that in the elkwoods. And I think that can be beneficial. Is like, oh, here's this, you know, here's one of my sets. Like, here's what I do. And you get really good. Cause I don't think you have to be great at every sound in the world if you have like a one. One really good set. You're like a comedian with like four good jokes and you're gonna go up and tell those four jokes and do it really well. But to your point, I. Yeah, I think practice. Practice mimicking elk sounds great. Great advice and practicing.

Yeah, for sure. Def. Definitely practice. You don't want to pull your calls out a week before the hunt and just start blowing on them.

I really think, like, practice getting louder. I think most people are not loud enough. And when you get in a competitive world, you're like, oh, man, you. You have to really try to get that loud. Like, when you listen to the pros, being loud is like being loud and clear or concise, whatever you want to say. Like, is hard. Both of those things. And most people, like, I'll, like, I've hunted with some people and like, when they call, I', oh, man. Like, you are not bugling loud enough. Like, yeah, yeah, you may be able to do it well, but it's not loud enough. So I think that's good. Yeah.

Yeah. I. I think that's definitely what made me lose that round at Worlds last year is like, I was trying so hard to be loud on one of my lip ball bugles and you could just hear me, like. And after watching the video back on, I was like, yeah, that was probably it.

But the. But I don't know if you can do Worlds again. Uh, one of the things I wrote down a lot when I was back there was lack of diversity. Lack of diversity. It felt like, you know, guy like. And again, that's a whole other beast than actually hunting. But, you know, if you only have the same three calls, it's kind of like I've, you know, I don't know. I don't want to hear the same three cow calls over and over and over. Uh, and it wasn't. I'm not picking on you. I have no idea which one you were. Uh, so, like, I don't have exact knowledge, but it's like, I wrote that a lot of, like, lack of. It seems like, lack of diversity. Like, show me. Show me a wider range of what you can do.

That was. That was probably definitely me. Like I said, I. Eric had talked me into entering Worlds in February, and Worlds was, what, June? July. Beginning of July. June. Somewhere in there. Yep. So four months to get ready for this thing, and I. Dude, my chuckles didn't sound good. My lip ball was horrible. My cow calls were okay. But, yeah, that was. That was definitely me. I. My. I didn't have a lot of diversity in my cow calls, and I did the same three to four bugles every single time.

Yeah, so that's. I mean, that's. I mean, people always ask, like, what are the judges looking for? For me, it was, you know. Yeah, you had to be punctual, you had to be clear, you had to be loud. But. And, like, realism matters. Sure. But I wanted to hear, like, how. How broad your. How broad you were with, like, different.

Gotcha. Yeah. And, man, something just lit a fire under me after Worlds, and I came back and I probably burnt through 20 freaking diaphragms after Worlds, man. I. My. My goal was to at least make, like, the top three at Worlds this year. And unfortunately, they're not doing Worlds this year.

But.

So my new goal was, well, I'm gonna try and win the Hunt expos. Calling contest, and, man, it's. It's a good thing I get off work so early so that my wife didn't have to sit at home and listen to me bugle for hours and hours and hours. But I definitely have kind of def. For sure figured out that diversity in my calls. Nice.

And do you. Do you feel like you got a good set? Like, did you plan a set or do you just go up and wing it?

Yeah, I planned a set. It kind of changed a little bit. I did this breathing technique that actually, Brian Usman or Ootman? When we were sitting at the booth.

I used to call Brian. Oh, really?

That's awesome. Yeah, he. He had taught me this, like, breathing technique through your tube. And that was really the only thing that I added. I didn't take anything out of my calling sequence, but. Yeah, man, added that. And somehow ended up 17 points ahead of second place and.

No way.

Yeah.

Yeah. Congrats. That's awesome.

Thanks, man. Yeah, when I seen the scorecard, I was like, there is no way that I beat AS that bad.

That's good. What do you think it was? Do you think it was like your. Just your overall set, or do you think it was like your. Your Bugles were that much better?

I. I don't know. I didn't. After I called, I kind of. Just because I'm still so new to calling contests, I kind of just like, blacked out, really. I didn't really pay attention to anyone else's calling. But I know the third place guy was right before me and I paid a lot of attention to him. And I feel like my cow calls were for sure better. But I think, like you were saying, I think it was just the diversity in my Bugles is what set me apart from everyone else. Like, I kind of did this weird. Almost like a bedded, uninterested bull bugle.

Yeah, no one does that ever.

A really low chuckle. Yeah, no one else did that.

No.

No one else was doing, like, breathing through their Bugle tube or anything like that. And I think that's just kind of what set me apart from everyone else.

And that's like. Yeah, the worlds, right? You're. You're judging and everyone wants to sound like a big screaming bull. Everyone throws in a litmo. Like, you kind of have these things that everyone's hitting. But, like, I. I think Bo Brooks did one. Maybe I don't remember who did it. Anyway. It was like, you know, I maybe heard one lazy bugle. Like, it's not a sexy Bugle, but, man, it really shows diversity. People really like that. And one of the things Bo Broch is really good at, like, when he hits that Bugle where. And it just sounds like a bull in the timber. The realism is, like, very good. But, like, I mean, I don't think Bo did a lazy bull bugle, you know, like, she was like all big Bugles. So, like, on. On one hand, I don't know, maybe the judges are only looking for who can sound like the biggest bull or the most real. But I. Yeah, you kind of got to Hit all the judges. And that's what's like, it's so subjective.

Yeah.

It's so difficult.

That's. That's definitely the hardest part about going into a calling contest is like, you have no idea what the judges are looking for, because who knows? The same exact calling sequence I did at the Hunt Exposed Calling contest. I could have lost the very first round at Worlds with it. Like, you just.

Oh, yeah.

It would be really cool if, like, there was almost like a meeting before Worlds and all the judges were like, hey, this is kind of what we're looking for, just so you guys know, and then you could go from there.

I, I, yeah, I don't know how much I should say, but I actually petition for that. Like, I do think that. And I think there needs to be a set criteria of, like, what we're looking for. You know, I'm in a unique position because I've been on the, on the front of the stage at Worlds and I've been on the back of the stage. And so I think it's a little bit different. And you get some people who are just like, I want to hear, like, the closest thing to an elk. I'm like, well, I've heard some pretty bad elk. You know what I mean?

Like, Right.

I look at it more as, like, who can run the instrument as a musical instrument? Who can, like, show me mastery of the instrument? Which, in order to do that, sure, yes, you have to be able to make a big bull sound, but you have to be able to do all the other things, too. So, like, I don't want to hear just like that. You can do one thing bigger and louder than everyone. Like, that doesn't show me mastery of elk calling or the instrument. Right, sure. Like, they all sound, they all sound real. Let's just call like, a spade. A spade. Like, everyone on stage sounds better than 90% of real elk. Like, I think that's. We're way past that. So now it's like, what are we really judging on? To me, it's like, you know, did you hit all of the things? Like, can you do all of the pieces? Can you do the lazy bugle? Can you, like, do the spike bugle? People, can you do, like, I think everyone can do a big challenge bugle. Like, I, to me, it's like, uninteresting. Like, maybe if you can make it sound unique and different, like, you'll stand out. But like, that, that seems like table stakes to me. Like, that's like, oh, yeah, you had to start there. Now what else can you need to do, you know? And, like, I don't know, like, even the cow calf, like, I mean, it's. You're. You're kind of checking a box, but you'd be as surprised, I think, how many people forget to check all the boxes, right? It's, like, ran out of time and, dude, it goes by super fast.

Oh, dude, it goes so fast. I remember the very first round. Like, I didn't even get to, like, do my bark chuckle because I ran out of time. Yep. Whoa.

Where did.

Where did that go?

Yeah, and that's. The importance of having a set is like. And that's one thing Corey Jacobson was so good at, is, like, he had the set and he had mastered the time frame so he could check all the boxes and they were clear, they were concise. Like, it was just, like, he was so consistent, and, like, he had that set. He knew exactly how many seconds that set was. And, like, a lot of guys will go up there and, like, start doing a bugle, doing their bugle thing or their freestyle and, like, just. Oop, time's up. Like, whoa, where did that go? I got, like, three bugles. That's not. That's.

Yeah, I think that's a. That's a hard thing with being new. And I'm sure, like, eventually I'll get it figured out, but, like, I sat down here in my room and practiced my calling sequence and time myself. And you have, like, you get your timing and everything figured out, but when you're standing on stage in front of a bunch of people and you know, you're. You got judges behind you, judging you on every little mistake or everything you do.

Right.

Like, for me, I never had to sit in my room down here and, like, take a deep breath because I'm, like, shaking so bad on stage. I think that's another. I think that's honestly kind of just what messed my sequence up there is just having to, like, stop and breathe in between everything.

Y. Yeah, it's. It's. It's interesting. It's challenging. Yeah, it's an interesting space. It's. It's getting more popular. I'm surprised they didn't do Worlds this year. I mean, I don't know if it's just the switch or what, but I.

I think they're just taking a year off to revamp it, whatever that would mean. So.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Hopefully I get. Hopefully I get a say in that and hopefully make it great. We'll see. I don't know, who knows? Well, Trevor, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. If people want to follow along on your journey, where's the best place? What's your Instagram?

So my Instagram is just my name. It's Trapper underscore Trussell. And that's really about the only place I post. I got Facebook, but that's kind of just for friends and family, stuff like that. Yeah, just on Instagram.

All right, man. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. Best luck this season.

Thanks. You too.

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