Elk Hunting Lessons Learned from the Field (Cody gets Interviewed)

All right, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Run the Rack outdoors podcast. Today I got on Cody Rich. And if you've been listening to hunting podcasts like how I have for a long time, you probably came across Cody and dude, how are you doing, man? I'm happy to get you on.

Yeah. Stoked to be here, man. Yeah, doing good. Yeah, I've been doing podcasts a while, so, yeah, it's been a good year. We're kind of chatting about it before it's bittersweet. I feel like it's kind of coming to a close. But I mean, I say that there's always late season stuff, but there's just a huge difference in, like, September. And it's funny because in Montana, there's like a very distinct, like, it's cool that you get archery and rifle, but at the same time, they're so. They're just different sports and like. So, like, you know, like, this sport is over and we're entering a new sport which is like, you know, it's fine. But of course, it's like, you know, set to snow this weekend and it's like just such a late season thing in Montana. So I act like season is over. I know it is not. But, you know, like a certain September has passed, man, and like, you know, you only get so many of those in life, so, yeah, it's good.

I know. And that's kind of how I feel too. Like, when most of my vacation is in September, I kind of feel like, you know, I'm done. But normally I'd be chasing whitetails, like, really hard back east, but now that I'm out west, I can still get out. I try to really think ahead. I picked up a leftover non residential deer tag this summer out here so I can keep hunting. And then actually my archery elk tag turns into a late season cow tag. So I've had enough to keep me busy on the weekends. So it's like we're still. We're still in the game. Yeah.

So now that you moved to Idaho, are you going to be a whitetail guy or a muley guy?

Oh, my God. Muley guy.

Really?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm obsessed with mule deer. I don't know what it is I'm trying to figure out. I was just talking to. Because this will be out after that one drops. Braxton Hamilton. Yeah, I think he's a Wyoming. You're in Wyoming, correct?

I'm in Bozeman, Montana.

Montana. Okay, never mind. He's a Wyoming guy. Big mule Deer guy. And we were talking about muleys or whitetails, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know what peaks equipment shirt. I have to get where it says muley's over elk. I thought it would be elk when I first, you know, kind of started hunting the west and everything. But over the years, mule deer, they just. I don't know, man. They just, like, they dance with you. They just. They. They get in your head. I don't know.

Yeah, I'm definitely the old guy. But if I had to choose, you know, I'm in this predicament, like whitetail versus mule deer, where I don't know that I care about mule deer all that much. Like, I think I'm more interested in whitetail.

Wow.

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for that, but that's all right. That's right. And I think it's like, so I grew up in Oregon, and I hunted blacktails. And so, I mean, it just, like, around the farm, you hunted blacktails like, whitetail? Like, honestly, like, we call them valley bucks, and, like, they are just whitetail. And so I feel like that's a big piece of it. And, like, everything I knew about blacktail hunting was from reading whitetail articles, because that's, like, all you had. Like, no one does blacktail articles. And so, realistically, I just grew up dear deer, and so I was like, read these whitetail articles and got into, like, you know, using scents, using rattling. Like, I would, you know, go out back and rattle. So, like, a part of me, you know, got into, like, you know, like, you move out. I moved east technically. But you moved to Montana. And it's like, oh, mule deer. And then, like, man, I'm like, now I get to see whitetail out my door, you know, my backyard. And so, like, I don't know. The whitetails are pretty cool, and no one else hunts them. So I'm like, everyone's a mealy guy. I'll be a whitetail guy.

There you go, too. Especially if it's like, you can find your own thing with them and they're not, you know, you're kind of getting away from. Because I know a lot of people, like, out this way, like, they're not really infatuated with, like, the spring bear quite as much like the residents. I'm all over it. Like, I'm super excited to chase spring bear. And not to. Yeah. Because this episode, I really want to get into elk. And I don't want to say, like, yeah, I'm not an elk guy, because I am still an elk guy as well. And that's why I got you on, too. And that's. That's going to be the big. The big theme of this episode here. So I. I chased elk for almost like two full weeks here in September. And this is my second year bow hunting elk. Last year, over the counter Colorado, I shot a cow elk just by myself and pack that whole thing out. That was fun. I blew a bunch of stocks. It was early September. I was just stocking in on herds. But this year was kind of the first time hunting middle to late September, like the rut. And I just wrote down ton of things here and wanted to just set up this episode to show off kind of these lessons learned.

Yeah. I want to go first before we get started.

Let's do it. Yeah.

What do you feel like was the biggest lesson learned? What was the aha moment in this year?

Okay, Cody, I ask you the questions.

It's hard.

Okay. My biggest lesson learned, I think. Okay, no, great question. I think I have a decent answer. So I'm in the perspective of somebody from out of state. I want to kill a bull, like a big bull more than anything in the world. So I'm gonna read and listen to and watch everything I can about elk and try to be the biggest student I can. And you're learning all about elk behavior and tactics and calling and gear and all this stuff. And that's all so great. I think the number one thing, though, that affects elk by far and away versus all these things is hunting pressure. And that's what has to be front of mind when you're e scouting, when you're planning your hunt, all the things, looking at weather forecasts, like, whatever, all of it's pretty much for not. And it's going to get thrown out the window if you're getting into pressure. So that's my thing. And if you can avoid it and get on elk, it can be some of the best times out in the mountains.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. And the reason I asked that was like, to frame a lot of these questions to, like, just see where you were at with, like, you know, I wouldn't say lessons learned, but it's just in general, like, where you're at with, like, the aha moment, which is. I think everyone has that where it's like, you go in the first year and you think it's going to be one thing and it's a different. And you think like, oh, here. Here's my goals and then you kind of get kicked in the face and it's like the, the classic Mike Tyson quote where like, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Right. And like, how you adapt to that matter. So anyway, I'll let you continue and you can ask the questions. I guess you can host this. But, like, I wanted to get a framework.

No, I'm just busting you. I'd love, I'd love to you ask me questions too, as we go. I think. No, I think this is going to be good.

Okay. We'll just dive right into it. So for context again, because I think giving context to hunting questions and podcasts, when people give advice is key. I always laugh when, like, I'll never forget this one scenario at work where I was talking to a guy my age, close to my age, and he was going out west for the first time and he said he was watching something on YouTube or whatever and he was going to buy this guy's like, whole puffy jacket, puffy pant or like pants base layer system. And there was no. And I was like, well, what season was that guy hunting? And this guy had a late season, like, Montana hunt. And I'm like, well, dude, you're buying. I know that influencer. He's a big September archery hunter. You know what I mean? So, like, make sure, like you're giving, like taking in the context of what, of what the hunt is and everything. So for context, for a bunch of these lessons learned at least. And then we can go down, dive into any rabbit hole. Is September elk hunting where I was at in Idaho? There was a, you know, it's not 12, 13,000ft in Colorado. It's more 7, 8,000 kind of stuff. And there was a fair bit of two track roads and dirt bike trails and things like that. And we were, we got there September 15th and hunted till the 27th or 28th, something like that. So that's at least kind of where I was at before. Kind of dive into these.

What was your goal from the hunt? Any bull or big bull? Because you said, like, I want to kill a big bull more than anything. Or is it just like secretly I want to kill a six by six.

I. And I do. My goal was four pointer better, to be honest. I really didn't want to go out there and shoot. I shot a cow last year, really didn't want to shoot another cow. I wanted my, my bull, my. My first bull and didn't really want it to be a spike, but definitely had a couple days right at the end there where actually did draw back on a spike. So that was my goal for the hunt. First thing, I'm just going to bounce off ya. So it seemed like.

Kind of the 80, 20 of a lot of our action was at first and last light in the mornings and evenings. And I kept running into this dilemma of like, man, you're just like, we're just out there filled with like piss and vinegar and we just want to go, go, go like all day. But we were spiked out, I would say, in elk country. So what I thought and what I kind of set ourselves up with was we, like I said, there was a lot of two track roads in the bottom and guys had camps and I was like, well, let's just backpack up over this ridge and we can get into this next drainage where it doesn't look like on Onx or anything. There's much hunting pressure that should be coming through there and we'll at least be like out there away from people and maybe like in the game every morning. So we would either glass up or hear a bugle or just something to entertain us for at least the first couple hours of the day and then maybe glass up something like in the evening or something. But midday is kind of like my question. I felt like we kind of were shooting ourselves in the foot where, you know, we're just hiking around and I'm like, are we, are we bumping elk? Are we doing ourselves a disservice? So talk a little bit about what, what do guys like to do?

What do I do? What do I do in the. What do I do with my hands in the middle of the day?

Exactly. Am I supposed to be hiking 20 miles a day? Like, should we start hiking like, right? Yeah.

Well, and there's. Dude, this is, this is classic and I've talked about this a lot and there's a bit of a dilemma when you go in that deep, right? Like there's, there's pros and cons, which is. I need to get into your point. You know, the first thing you said was like, gosh, you gotta get away from people. The more you get away from people, the more you're kind of at odds with like, I can only go as far as my legs can take me.

Right?

And so when you, when you get away from that truck or that side by side or the whatever you have e bike, I don't care horse you are stuck with like this, let's call it a four mile circle, which if anyone's hunting in the backcountry, Is not very big. Like, there's a herd elk, maybe two, right? And so you get into this predicament where you. You. You know where the elk are. We're just going to call it the elk. And the elk means, like, this is the pocket of elk we have found. If you don't have that, then you can hike all day, go 20 miles and keep searching. But when you get into the back country and this is predominantly like, okay, we're in. Say we're in 5 to 10 miles. Doesn't matter. All of a sudden, I have this, like, I set up camp and I have this radius that I can go find elk in, right? A lot of times the problem is, you know, if you don't have. If you don't know where the elk are, just cover ground until you do. Like that is like, you're not worried about bumping elk. The problem in your head, this is my guess, because I've been there, is like, okay, I have these elk and they're talking in the morning and evening, but I don't know what to do with my hands in the middle of the day because I don't really want to go mess with them, you know? But, like, what should I be doing something? I feel this urge. I should be doing something, right? This is. I mean, this is very classic, right? You have these elk and you probably shouldn't mess with them. Like, I think the guy who, you know, gets full of piss and vinegar and wants to go mess them. And like, there are days where it could happen midday, you know, and you hear these podcasts like, man, I hunt elk, or I kill most milk in the middle of the day. Great. And there are those days where that's going to happen. But honestly, when you are deep in the backcountry and you have one pocket of elk, you kind of get. Have to just deal with boredom and so much of it, man. I just did this podcast, and it's going to come out here in the next few days. I was talking to Jeff Helm, and, you know, they went deep into Wyoming, and, you know, when you hear the story, you're like, it's 1, 2, 3. It made it easy. And what Jeff is really good at is knowing when to strike, right? Knowing. And he made this comment. It stuck with me. It's one of the best podcasts I've done. But it's like he made this comment about, you know, archery. Sheep hunter told him killing a sheep with a bow is actually pretty easy. You just have to be able to wait until it's the right moment. You have to choose that, like, battlefield, right? And this is elk hunting in back country scenarios where it's like, you can't just force you shooting an elk wherever you want, you're going to mess it up. So you have to be patient. The hard part is you feel like you're not doing anything. Like this could be days of just like, I'm trying to strike in the morning and evening when they're vocal, they're moving and in the middle of the day, they're not talking. They're stuck in this timber patch. The wind is swirling. I feel like I need to do something. I should just go in there and challenge Bugle. And then you blow them out and now you're like, crap, no, I, I don't have a play for tonight. I don't know where more elk are. And so like, this is like a super common scenario. And, and for the most part, you need to sit and just be patient. Right. You have to let the situation materialize in a way that's like, I can attack now. Right? Just because other people kill elk in the middle of the day doesn't mean you have to force it. Every middle of the day there are scenarios like, I watch a bull go up in bed in the spot. I'm like, man, midday, the winds get like, the thermals are going to be great. Like, this is a, this is a good move. We can make it happen. So like, those will make sense. For the most part, elk hunting can be really boring. With that said, this is like when I go back to like, there's a catch 22 of being deep in the woods where it's like, you don't really have more options, sure, you could go other directions, look for more elk. My, my theory is like, if I can cover ground and find different elk, I'm going to. If it makes more sense to be patient and watch this scenari. Whether I nap on the mountain and I'm kind of keeping eyes on or I'm just like listening there. There are a lot of reasons to just be patient and watch what materializes. Like, many times I've had elk go in and bed down. The last three days, they really haven't done anything. But today, all of a sudden, I see a bull go into that bedding area or they start piping off or something. Some variable change that allowed me to say, oh, I'm going to attack. And I'm still gathering information. Sometimes you're like, you know, they get up at 3pm like, and if you weren't there, you wouldn't know, right? And so there are reasons to stick around. But many times if I only have one group of elk or a couple elk that I'm hunting, I'll use the middays to go discover new. Something new, right? I'm like, let's go. Let's just go on a walkabout, right? Maybe we find a midday bugle somewhere, right? And sometimes it is covering. Like, let's go check this wallow. Like, we all have a dozen wallows we want to check. So, you know, that's a good time. Like, hey, let's go check this wallow. And you know, don't walk yourself into the ground. If you're going 20 miles a day, you're probably going too far. But, like, you know, cover some ground, try to find something new. And in my mind, I don't love when I only have one group elk. To me, that's like, it's not enough. Like, I know this is. I'm going to screw this up and I'm going to need a plan B. Currently, we have no plan B. So in my mind it's like, okay, let's just try to figure out what plan B is before plan A gets screwed up and then, you know, we have it. If I have three herds of elk, I'm far more patient. I'm like, let's just watch. Let's like, let's watch elk be elk. And I think it's really hard for a lot of guys, man. They think they're like, get in there. Gotta go fast. I gotta cover ground. I gotta be a badass hunter. Gotta do 20 miles a day. And like, some of the best elk hunters, best elk hunters in the world are not doing 20 miles a day. Promise you that. Guarantee it. And so, like, you just have to be patient and watch and watch and watch and like, wait for the right opportunity. You know, it's like going back to your 80, 20 rule, you know, you gotta wait for the right 20. You know, 20% of those encounters are gonna. It's probably like 10%, but like 20% of those encounters going to be good. And so, like, don't just be fumbling around in the woods covering ground. That's the 80, right? Like, don't, don't be messing around with like these 80% of situations that aren't going to turn into anything. Be looking for the right 20% of opportunities that are going to cap that you're going to be able to capitalize on. And I think that's kind of the advice so really, it's like, you don't have to be doing anything. Don't feel like you have to be doing something all the time, because watching elk is doing something. And I think some of the best elk hunters in the world will just sit, get high, watch. Get high and watch, you know, even if they're not in striking distance. And I think that's really hard for people, too, just to kind of follow up on what you were talking about. I know the situation was like, you want to be there. The elk are bugling. You feel like you should be close at morning and evening, but sometimes you're too close. You're like. Like, it's not really. You know, it's not. I'm not getting a shot. But I'm also like, I can't figure it out. Sometimes it's like, hey, scoot back. And like, let's just see where they go, see what they do. I'm trying to figure out the macro view. And I think oftentimes when you're in those scenarios where it feels like you're trying in the morning and evening, but it's not penciling out, like, it just, like, oftentimes, you know, they bugle for 20 minutes, right? I can't see what's going on. I can't hear what. Like, they're just. They're shutting up pretty quick. So scoot back, try to get the macro. Like, how are we. Like, where are they going? What are they doing? Maybe I can get farther away and see what they're doing, right? If I can't. If they're shutting up 20 minutes after daylight, then, you know, this, this, or that. The other caveat is. And this. This may. I don't think it contradicts what I just said, but, you know, if you have elk where they're shutting up 20 minutes after daylight, and you're just going to hunt them for 10 days in a row, and these are really hard elk to hunt. Go find new elk, right? Maybe you'd spend your entire day. Spend your mornings and evenings finding you out. I see a lot of people, they get so obsessed with the fact they found elk that they don't want to leave them. And these elk are talking in the morning and evening, but it's not working out. Like, for whatever reason, like, where they're at is a bad spot. Like, wind's bad. You know, they've been pressured, all these things. Sometimes it's like, maybe hunt those in the middle or come back and check on them in the middle of the day. But, like, Focus on something in the prime time, right? 80, 20, you know, you're going to find elk in a very small window of the day. Don't waste that day on elk that you can't kill. Try to find those and then maybe like the elk that you're like, I know these elk are. Check them in the middle of the day, you know, come back, you know where these elk are, right? Come back, bugle in the middle of the day. And one of these days you might, you know, they might rip off in the middle of the day, there might be a hot cow, right? So I don't know if that answers your question, but sometimes it is inversing what you're putting your effort into in the mornings and evenings. And instead of. I just feel like I'm not doing anything in the middle of the day. I don't know if that answers entirely.

It absolutely does. And you touch on a lot of good points where. And I feel like I hear this from a lot of good hunters. Everything's situational. You have to look at everything as its own unique unicorn or whatever. And then play it, play, always play the high percentage odds. And I like how you brought up the fact that, I mean, you will sometimes leave elk to find elk because again, this is like a game of like blackjack. We're playing like if there's. If that's a low odds. I mean, I did that with mule deer. So I hunted high country mule deer in the beginning of September in Colorado. There were times where you glass up a buck and it's like, it's not in a stockable, killable location. Like, I'm going to go glass up another deer. So that's not exactly how elk hunting works. But you can think of it the same way as like, hey, they're going to bust me with the wind. Or like that ground is way too thick all around them where they're bedding and feeding and we're not going to get close or it's just not. Just not the right time. Fill in the blank. And that's maybe a benefit of looking at situations, just odds. And if you have to leave elk to find elk for a short period of time at least, then sometimes that's what you got to do.

So this year we were. I was with a buddy, you know, and good buddy of mine. I think he's a pretty good elk hunter and. But he's, you know, still kind of early in it, and we kind of knew where these elk were gonna be. We get up on the. Where we get up on the ridge, which is like, they're coming. They should be coming up, right? And we kind of work out. There's a. Sounds like a good bull way down in the bottom. And then there's a bull right to our left, and he's kind of already up high, and he's bugling, right? Like, he rips off. I cow call a couple times. He rips off again. And I looked at him and I said, old me would go chase that bugle. Here's what's going to happen. Old me would go, listen, be like, there's an elk right here. I know there's an elk way down there, but, like, there's an elk right here. I was like, this bull's gonna shut up. Like, it was early September, and I was like, he's already up in the timber. He's gonna shut up in, like, three more bugles maybe. And like, I've done this a million times. And I was like, let's. I was like, this bull sounds like he's got cows. Let's just listen and wait, right? And so, like, I let. We sure enough, like this bull next to us, we. I was like, if he comes over, great, I'll calculate a few times. And so he just, you know, a couple calf calls, a couple cow calls. He answered again, and I could tell he was kind of going away. I was like, you're never going to catch that bull. Like, he's going up to bed and he's going to shut up. That's what's going to happen. And this. This takes screwing it up a lot to learn this. But it's like, let's. Let's keep listening. So we kind of move down. We move down. I hear that other bull and just, you know, you can hear it in his. His voice.

Like, he.

He doesn't really care, but he's definitely got cows. And he's coming up like he's coming to me. So you could choose the elk that's walking away from you, that's closer and bugling, or the one that's coming up towards you, right? Like, so all we did was slide over a hundred yards, and sure enough, this bull bugled all the way right up to us. Ended up calling him in, and, yeah, didn't get him killed, but, like, we called him in well into boa range. I had the cows at 22 yards. And, you know, it's just one of those situations where, like, choose the. Choose your battle, right? Don't be patient. Let it materialize. You know, the elk that's going away from you is going to be really tough to kill the elk that's coming towards you. Way, way easier to call it.

Love it. Next one I want to bring up, and this goes into calling, which we just touched on a little bit. So something that I learned was there's a difference between calling yugling with a bull.

A couple hundred yards away versus in their bedroom. Huge difference. And before I even get into, like, the couple stories I have that had me write this down, what are your thoughts there? Would you agree with that?

I mean, yeah, I would love to hear the story so I have context, but.

Okay.

I mean, yes, I agree. I think.

Yeah. I mean, so what happened was a couple scenarios where we were bugling with bulls. So we did have one day. Again, it was just. It was kind of that random thing midday. Bugle, he just piped off, and we were like, oh, okay. We were down in this bottom trying to get water and.

He piped off. He was maybe five or six, maybe 500ft above us. And my thought was like, okay, thermals are rising. We might be okay right here down at the creek, pulling our scent away, but we need to climb up the drainage and try to get up and around him. But this turned into. And in the moment, I was like, this doesn't feel right. So he would bugle and we'd bugle back, and then he'd bugle and we'd bugle back. He'd bugle, we'd bugle back. And we were just kind of like playing.

You know, ping pong with this pool a little bit.

Marco Polo.

Yeah. Yeah. And we would. And the undergrowth was super thick, so it was hard to kind of just like run right over there. Tried to keep cutting the distance. And then once we got to what we thought about, you know, 200, 150, just keep. Keep calling him, keep him talking, start hitting him with the challenge, Start getting fired up and pissed off and raking and doing all the things we had, like probably two or three times where I was like, okay, like, set up. Like, he. I mean, we did get him fired up to where he keep bugoing a couple times in a row. But I think this whole time went over like two hours. And that bull, turns out, never really moved from where he was. We just got him all pissed off, worked up, and then we were moving closer to him. And we did get to a point though where we were probably about like 50 or 60 yards, and we saw him like beating the hell out of this little pine tree and getting all fired up, but he was not committing, you know? And I think we just got him all worked up to where he finally. He actually just, like. It seemed like he just was tuckered out, and he kind of just like, shut up and went. Went up over the ridge and that was it versus another time we were just hiking around still kind of early in the morning, and then this one little drainage bugled down into. And I totally screwed up the setup with this one, but bugled right down into it, like this little. Little draw. And there was a bunch of reprod, like, right in front of us, too. Bugled into it. A bull within. Like, I mean, it's really hard to tell you. Can you, like, you learn that, too. Of, like, they're facing this way in Bugle versus if they're facing to you in Bugle, but sounded like very close. And we were like, oh, shit. Well, where we screwed up was we then got closer to him. But then next thing I knew, we were standing in the reprod where you can only see 10ft in front of you. And I was like, oh, wait, this was stupid. The bull then came right in front of us. Never had a great look at him. Bugled again. And then we heard all these elk kind of fly out of there. We figured he had cows with him or something, but we were in that scenario. I felt like we were right in his bedroom. We bugled at him, and he bugled right back and was like, oh, whoa, like, I'm coming. Versus the other bull that was kind of just like bugle and back. We bugled to him. I think maybe we were making a mistake of actually cutting that distance. I think in hindsight, when he piped off, just go. Just go. Like, why? What are we doing? Like, just go get in his ass. And then if the situation presents itself where you do need to fire him up to get him to get on his feet a little bit, do that. But do that at, you know, sub 100 yards or something. So I. That's kind of the couple stories I had for this.

Yeah, it's good context.

Mm.

What time. What time of day were either of those?

So the one was, like, two o', clock. The one where we just worked him for a couple hours. And then the other one where I was like, right in his bedroom was probably, like, within an hour after sunrise in the morning.

Okay. Yeah. Good context. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like, no offense, that's kind of a classic faux pas for, like, the single bowl, like the first one, you know, this episode of the podcast is brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light and simple. From amazing tripods to bino mounts, panheads, truck mounts, and now even bipods. Tricer makes gear that's fast, light and simple. I love their gear. And if you're looking for a new system for better glassing, check out Tricer. Head over to the website tricer.com they make great products and it's just a great company. Awesome. Dude's been using the heck out of the bipod. Killed a lot of critters with it. Head over the website, use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 10% at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Stone Glacier. And, and tell you what, I've packed out a lot of animals with my Stone Glacier pack this year. The Sky Archer 6400 has been with me to Alaska, British Columbia, Wyoming, Montana. And I love the thing. It's, it's, you know, whether it's a 10 day backpack hunt or your day hunting from the side by side, that's what I love about the Stone Glacier. It's minimalist, it's lightweight. You can use it day hunting or you can use it for an alpine backpack hunt. Great products. And Stone Glacier makes an entire suite of hardcore mountain hunting gear. So if you're in the market, head over to stoneglacier.com use the code TRO. You'll save yourself a little bit of a discount and get yourself some great gear.

Middle of the day, he probably just beagle from his bed. You know, you, you kind of were an elk. You got him a little bit fired up. Pretty common. I used to do this all the time and you get them all fired up. 8 out of 10 times it doesn't work out. And that's fine. Sometimes it works out.

I think there's, there's a couple things you could tweak in that scenario. And I'll go like minor tweaks and I'll go major tweaks. So generally speaking, bowl bugles from his bed midday, he's probably not super aggressive. And you know, maybe he's just throwing a locate. I'll just try to like mimic him, you know, and see what I can do. Honestly. Yeah. Get up, get parallel or get same level as him. Um, and I would probably stay back a little bit. I'm not trying to move in and challenge him unless I really know he's got cows. I just, that kind of usually turns into like him.

Yeah.

Doing what he did. He's going to bugle. He Might rake. He's not that excited. And if you're a really, really good caller, you can probably get him worked up. He's still, like, you're still low, low odds in my mind. And so, like, you're. And a lot of times he just doesn't want you to get that close to him. Right? Like, he'll. He'll play the game a little bit. He'll talk to you and, hey, maybe rake if you're raking and, like. And I've got bulls. We did it this year.

I got a bull.

We're all worked up. Like, from nothing to super worked up. But, you know, we got it at 60. Just never really got a shot. It's, I mean, very difficult to close that last little bit of gap. I usually. Two things. I'm solo. Like, I'll try to get them raking, and like, that's. If I can get him raking hard, then I can close the distance. That's been fairly successful for me. It's like, I've always struggled with that scenario right there. Like, get him worked up. But, like, how do you close the distance when he won't come? He's not going to close the last hundred yards, right? And so I'll usually try to get parallel, try to get him raking and get eyes on. And then once I get, you know, like, if I can get him raking hard and sometimes they don't, they'll just like, kind of half rake if he's. I know now that if he's half raking, this is probably not going to work in that scenario. I would probably back out and leave him confused.

Nowadays. And, like, I just know I'm. This is just going to get blown up. I can feel it. Like, he's not really that into it. You know, he was. He got a little worked up, but unless he's really getting aggressive, I'm not overly. I'd rather back up. With that said, if I have two people, if I can keep him talking and the other guy can just slip up silent. I like that scenario where it's like, that bull will talk to you. If you're 300 yards away, 200 yards away, when you get under 100, he's getting a little suspect. He wants to see something or, you know, he's like, you turn the shot clock on, you start bugling within 100 yards, you're turning the shot clock on. You have a limited time before he says, all right, I don't like this. I'm out. And so if you stay at 300, you may be able to work. It's a lot longer shot clock. There's still shot clock, but like your buddy could slip in and try to like work it. I do think you want to be close enough that he can hear you raking. Because if, if you can get him raking, it just change like he can't see very. Like he's, he can't see when he's raking. So it allows your, you or whoever shooter to slide in a little bit easier. So like that 200ish mark. Now if he's only talking at 300, like you could just keep him talking and slide in and be a ninja. That's it. That's a decent play. Those are kind of the two scenarios I would use in that situation. Honestly.

Why not just go in and do a couple of calf calls? Like if I hear a bull bugle, it's early season now. I kind of either wait, you know, going back to like at 2 o', clock, I may wait till 4 o'. Clock. May wait just to like when he's about to get up anyway and just kind of slide in and do a couple soft calculus and then wait and a couple soft cal. Like he's gonna come investigate that. If he's laying by himself and you get within 200 and you know, like, is he gonna stand up and come over at noon? Probably not. Probably doesn't care. But what happens with the cow call or the cat say a calf call, we come in and caf Call. He's probably not gonna get up right away if he doesn't. I mean, he may not care. Like people are like, why called? He wouldn't come. Like, dude, that happens. Like sometimes they just do not care. But if you slide in your calf call, there's no shot clock. Like you can wait, right? And then you can wait and judge that. Maybe like throw out a bugle at five or six, see what he does, right? Like, and then now it's easier to call that bull in when he's all going to get up anyway. Like he may be just doesn't want to get up. Maybe he's just going to sit there. He doesn't care. So I think sometimes you can try to force a situation when that bull doesn't want it and that makes it hard. And I tend to lean these days more to like, how do I keep this bull in play? Instead of like, let's, let's force the situation. I used to, you know, be the bull in the china shop. Like just force it. I'll Go find a new elk. And I just feel like it doesn't work out nearly as much. And so you can kind of be a little bit softer. Softer hands around that. And then I think that kind of plays into the next scenario where it's like, morning time. Elker headed to bed. Yeah, you got him to bugle. You got aggressive. You got into a hundred. You challenged him, and he came in. But again, it's like you're. It's gonna blow up, right? And so many times I would rather. This is tough. And I. We just talked about how it's like when you're dogging elk and trying to call. You're not choosing the battlefield. The battlefield. And the battlefield is so important. When I say battlefield, I mean you're set up, right? Like, you're moving, and you're like, you're moving through the trees, like, oh, this would be a great spot. And you, like, set up and try to call. He's already 200 yards. You, like, move up, and now you don't have. You get to the reap rod, and you're like, God, like, I only see 10 yards, and, like, I gotta make it work, right? And it's. It's very, very difficult because you don't. You don't get to choose the battlefield. And when you could choose the battlefield, that's way better. Now, the downside is, like, that bull's gonna move in, maybe goes embeds in that reprod, right? And, like, all sudden, he shuts up and he won't do anything. But if you. Now you have all day to figure out where the battlefield is, right? You're like, you know, he's bedded in there or roughly here, or this is where he came from. Now, we could choose, like, you get to slow it down a little bit. Now, the cat, the catch 22, is, like, there's probably 14 of your best friends that are going to try to hunt him that night. So, like, you're trying to pressure that situation. You're like, I got to get him killed right? Now, these are all variables you have to weigh. To me, I really like trying to choose the battlefield if I can. Like, where's the best setup? Where's the pinch point, Right? Like, where's this bull going to go? You don't always know that, but I do feel like a lot of times when you're too aggressive, I hate to say it, I do think people should be fairly aggressive in comparison to what they think they can be. With that said, you know, you got to. Being in the Right place is going to make everything easier. And when you're dogging herds and trying to call them back to you and then they get in that thick stuff, it just makes it very difficult to happen.

Yeah, for sure. Would you say again, this is a situation dependent, but there's a lot of situations where starting with cow call, calf call is just a little bit of a safer play sometimes because then you can still kind of fall back to like, okay, I'm going to bugle at him, versus if you start with bugles or like, you know, a hard challenge bugle or something, you're kind of like, this is either going to work or not.

Yeah. I would say, you know, 10 years ago, I think, like, I challenge people and I would say 10 years ago it worked. Well, I think if you're hunting Colorado or Idaho, I don't know, like it ever. Like, I think it works less than it works, you know, like, I think we're, we're past that point. Does it work? Yeah, absolutely. Are there situations where that lure works? Yes. Do I think that for the most part, you're going to be a bull in a china shop and spook more elk, then you're going to call in 100%? Yes. And I think that's very true. 2020 work. Right. Like, you're hunting high pressure elk, you need to just wear kitty gloves a little bit. And a lot of that is just like, you got to time it. I think it's mostly timing. It's like you got to catch them in a pinch point. You got to catch them whatever. You know, they've just been called that they've been pressured. Like, I think a challenge bugle has a, has a place in the toolkit. But I think it, it's the right day, the right time. And you know, when people say like, that doesn't work, I disagree. I actually do disagree with that, but I think there are very few situations I'm in per year where that's the tool to use. And, you know, there's a classic saying, when all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails. And I think there's a lot of dudes walking around with, you know, Phelps, bugle tube that are trying to, you know, hit every nail on the head. And, you know, I just, I think that's, it's gonna, it's gonna make elk hunting frustrating.

I think that's a good way to frame it.

Yeah, the.

Yeah, this bugle tubes a hammer and everybody's out there.

Yeah.

Just trying to use it, pounding on nails but that's, you know, that. I see that. But I think it's okay because that's where. Learning a lot, because I felt like that was me a lot, at least for the beginning of the hunt to where we saw. We were here mules, we were seeing elk, and, like, we were having, like. We kind of had this weird thing in our head where it was like, you know, this might take three or four different setups before we arrow one. So we were almost like counting down, like, oh, okay, that was the second setup we screwed up. Like, only one more, then we'll get it, you know, so we were okay with like, you know, doing that. Getting close.

The problem is I think it's like, 1 in 20.

Yeah, I think so.

So if you. That's a lot of elk to find. You know what I mean? Like, if you can find 20 herds of elk, then I think it'll work. And, like, it just. I mean, like, it does work.

Like, I.

Today I will say there's a lot of people say, you know, put the damn bugle tube away. I was like, I disagree, man. I think it works. I think it is a purse you have. It has to be right day, right time, write everything right. And you gotta be really good at reading temperatures and. And like, just understand it. Read the room, you know, like, to me is like, if you're gonna run around with that hammer, you got to read the room and know when to use it. That bull's got to be pretty fired up. I just don't think most people understand that. Like, just because a bull is with cows does not mean he's ready to fight you. Like, and so much of it, I think, is like, if he's the only bull, I just don't think he really cares. Like, it's different when you have a big herd bull and he's got satellites running close and he's been, you know, fighting them. And, like, there's like, a lot of action, right? I think most scenarios are like, there's. There's a six point and maybe there's a couple raghorns following him. But, like, he ain't worried about them. Like, he's not worried about fighting. And like, you come in here and say, I want to fight you. He's never even seen you. Like, he doesn't. Like, I'm not. He's not in that. Right. Whereas if he's been fighting bulls all night and, like, it's been a battle and like, like there's multiple satellites that are like, legit contenders, it's A little bit different. You know, he's all worked up, he's ready to fight. That's a good time to use that hammer. But like, I think most of the time dudes were rolling in there when it's like these elk have been pretty dang quiet and he's kind of just got his little harem tucked away over here like he don't care. He's not, he's not like, oh man, I'm gonna. And even if you get him worked up, like he's. Now he's just getting suspicious, you know?

Yeah. And I think reading the temperature is key. And it's interesting too because, dude, we did the first few days, heard some bugles and we went up to glass this one morning and right below us it sucked. Like I would have never thought elk would be right here, but thermals were going right down to him. But I heard some crashing and I look over and there was two good five points beating the hell out of each other, fighting. And it was really cool to seeing that. And then hearing some more bugles, we. We were getting aggressive and I and I. And I think it was a decent, like a good thought at the time just based on the temperature. And like you said, everything we were seeing, it's just so much has to go right and there's so many, there's so many variables and that's what makes it so tough but also so fun, you know?

Yeah, for sure. And I think like, you know, it depends on like what you're after. Right. If you're only after herd bowls versus like satellites, a lot of times, you know, man, a couple cow catch calcaf sounds and satellites come running right over. It's really easy play. Yeah.

And I like how you mentioned before that you will sometimes leave elk to find elk again to give yourself those options because it's going to take multiple, multiple, multiple setups. And not even just within the context of trying to challenge bugle just to arrow an elk in general. So trying to find multiple groups of elk to give yourselves options is a really like, I'm hesitant to say this. Like, I mean it is true. That is a good play. And that's what we were trying to do as well. And I've seen that over and over because it just, it does take multiple opportunities. But Cody, you know, there's somebody like listening that's like. I was out in Colorado for eight days and I had a hard time finding like one, like a one decent bull or like elk in general. So that's what's like, so tough. Like, I don't know. What would you say to that guy that's like, you want me to find multiple groups of elk? Like, I'm having a hard time finding one.

Yeah, I. I mean, like, it depends on where you hunt, too. But I do think that, like, you know, finding. Finding the right elk, right? Like, and maybe it matters more. Just, like, finding killable elk is kind of the key, right?

And you got to hunt hard. Like, you got to look hard, and sometimes you got to bump out to find out, like I do. I think there's a lot of 101 hunters that walk around in the woods thinking there's an elk around every tree. And, like, they're just tiptoeing and using their little, you know, hoochie mama. And, like, this is not right. And so you got to cover ground. You got to move fast. You gotta look big. You gotta. You know, if you. If you can't see, you gotta call. Like, you gotta locate, you know, you gotta find elk. You, like, find elk any way you can. And I think that's a. That was a. That's a huge learning lesson for a lot of people early is like, you gotta cover some ground to find some elk. These things aren't around every tree. You know, they're not deer.

Where.

It's like, deer could be anywhere and everywhere. Like, there's just little pockets of deer. I mean, elk are big animals that cover a lot of ground. And, like, you know, there may be one group in a drainage, right? And so you have to check a different drainage. Man, you could go two, three drainages and not see elk, right? And so you kind of. Once you learn to cover ground, once you start seeing elk sign, right? Like, there's probably elk there. And, like, I think here's another misconception. Conception is like, I'll take the Colorado hunter you mentioned. We had this. This year where it was like, there's elk sign here, but we're not hearing any elk. And so what do they do? They, like, they assume they're gone, right? And it's like, man, there's elk sign here. There's got to be elk. Like, I. I just would lean on that. Just because they're not talking doesn't mean there's not elk there. And I feel like sometimes, you know, I. I tell people to cover ground, right? You find elks. I know, like, double tap. Why those elk are there. They don't just disappear. I mean, they do just disappear, but, like, at the same time, like, I. I would really, like, look into that. You know, we had a spot this year where, God, I couldn't buy a bugle, right? But we know there's elk there. I've seen. We're seeing tons of sign and, like, you start to learn that, like, how much sign you see really matters. Like, if I'm. Am I seeing, like, oh, I saw a track, or like, man, this looks like elk have been living in here. There's elk here. There's multiple groups of elk in here. And this is a good pocket, right? And we would just blind call setup. Like, we're just setting up and doing soft cow calls sequences for 20, 30 minutes. And then here comes a silent bull, right? Most people would have just, there's no elk here, right? And I called. I don't know, it was like four or five in a row, called in silent bulls. They're all, you know, smaller bulls, but, like, at the end of the day, like, there's elk there. Just because they're not playing the game you want to play doesn't mean they're not there. And I think that sometimes is just finding elk, and sometimes they're, you know, it's not going to be a primos video and they're not going to be screaming, but, like, you know, there's a lot of elk that'll come in quiet, right? And if you can. And I. I mean, I remember thinking about it, you know, you were talking about every, you know, three or four setups, you're gonna. Like every three or four encounters, you shoot everyone. I think if you're in elk country and you're seeing elk sign, if you. If you say every 10th setup, we're going to call one in, like, it's going to happen. I think if you can have like 10 great setups, you're going to call in an elk and maybe every two or three, like, you know, like something goes wrong, or every two or three, you know, good encounters, you might get a shot, right? Opportunity. And I think that's, you know, one of the things to consider is, like, not always going to be bugling, not always going to be big rut action. Sometimes. Like, one of the bulls we killed this year came in absolutely completely silent and we shot him. I never. I caught a glimpse of his butt and then he got arrowed, right? Like. And I was the caller. That's just how. That's how it should work. That's how it happens way more, you know, so just like, when you understand that, I just. I don't know, I. Maybe I'm wrong on this But I do feel like everyone thinks every bull comes screaming in and it's some big event.

Yeah, well, that's what. That's what we all dream about, right? And I think. I think that's. So, like, if you could. Like, if we could clip that last part where it's like Cody ritz just said, 10 times. 10. 10 times for you. It might take to. To arrow Aaron Elk. Obviously, if one comes in, you know, if a good bull comes in screaming on your first try, like, kill that thing.

Like, yeah.

You know, but I think that's such a good little nugget there, because that could help somebody when they're out there and they screw up the first couple chances they have. Like, it can at least be like, okay, like, we're not 10. Yeah, yeah. Like, but just the thought of, like, okay, this is going to take more than one or two trials to have it come together. Like, it might keep you in a positive mindset. Versus, after that first setup, you kind of screw up to where can't figure it out. Should have did it. Should have killed one. Should have did it right there. Should have been tagged out, and then that'll just eat at you, man. And that can affect the rest of the hunt.

Oh, you know, it's like, I think one of my super. One of my superpowers is definitely, like, I just do not care. Like, you almost have to be this way. I do think there's a lot of dudes that get so wrapped around the axle, like, they're just like, I've got to get this thing killed. And, you know, they're the guy that's only had one or two encounters. And, you know, I could care less, right? Like, I. I call very carefully carefree. I'm fairly aggressive in, like, movements, and, like, if we bump this up, we bump this up. I do not care. Like, I do not care. And you can't. When you have that mentality of, like, I don't care if this falls apart. You're dangerous, right? Because if you're. Oh, God. Oh, God, there's an elk. Like, we gotta get a shot. Like, it's.

You're.

You're gonna screw this up, guaranteed. You know what I mean? Like, and I think you have to have a lot of those encounters. You know, just like, we talk about being in the red zone. You got to be in the red zone a lot, right? You got to know how to act in the red zone. Because if you've never been in the red zone and you're, like, trying to get a Shot, you're just like, you're panicked. Like, you know, like, dude, move up. Like, I, like, all the time. Like, hey, you gotta, you gotta force this last 1%, those little things. And, you know, it takes experience. You gotta get in the red zone a number of times. But don't think that every time you're gonna get in the red zone, you're getting a shot, because it's just not the truth, right? And I, and I think that's important to your point. Like, you know, you got to have a little bit of carefreeness in that red zone. You got to know you're going to screw it up. Like, don't put so much pressure on yourself to make a shot happen every time you get in the red zone. Because we can oftentimes, you know, get in the red zone. It doesn't work out. Like, just, that's a fact of life. Get used to that. And, like, you have to, like, also just brush it off. It's a bad golf shot, man. Like, you can't care about your last shot. Like, hey, that was fun. That was cool. And my, my hunter this year, you know, very much it was like, man, it like, it just. You could tell he was getting frustrated thinking it was him. And it was like, we only had two or three encounters, you know, basically once I started just set up, let's just do blind cal called blind calling sequences. You know, like, one time there was an elk like, 10 yards behind me. I didn't even hear it. You know, it's like, it was funny. My buddy is like, I think he text me. He's like, bull coming from the left. And like, I just, like, just moved slightly, and it was like 10 yards behind me. I was like, well, you could have said it was right next to me, but, you know, and that happens, right? He was getting frustrated. He's like, it's not, it's not working out, you know, And I could tell. And even to that last, the one we ended up shooting, he was like, man, I, I, that bull, I saw it come in. And then, like, there just wasn't shot. He's like, God, I suck at this. You know? And then, like, he also, he's like, I look, he's still right there. And that is how it works. Like, we had four or five blind calls in the red, like, in the red zone, right? So in the red zone, it just wasn't working out. Like, you have to just know that's, that's how it is, right?

Like that.

And, you know, sometimes it's Gonna work out. Sometimes it's not. But, like, you, I think ton of people get so nervous in the red zone that they've. They screwed up. And, like, you just get comfortable. And, like, that's a part of growing as an elk hunter. And this is my advice to you, is, like, don't focus on killing the elk. Focus on really good execution. Focus on getting in the red zone and being comfortable in the red zone, because that's going to make you a killer. Killing an elk doesn't make you a killer. Like, being deadly in the red zone makes you a killer. What do you want to be great at? You know, like, do you want to be the guy that's got, you know, ice in his veins when he's in the red zone? Absolutely. That's who you want to be. So go get in the red zone a hundred times. Like, don't worry about killing else. Like, get good at that. Get good at, like, knowing when to use what tool, right? Like, what do I want to do here? Don't overthink it. Just be like, hey, here's. Here's the three tools I have in my tool chest. I think it's important. You can have too many. So it's like, should I use the cap call? Should I use the bugle? Right? Like, which. Just that simple thing of like. Or do I use no call?

Do I?

Like, those are the three. Don't overthink it, because you can easily be like, should I do this? Should I do that? Should I do.

No.

Get, like, good at three. Three moves, have three good plays. And, like, you execute these plays until you're really good, and then we can add plays and then get comfortable in the reds. Like, you know, like, I always think of it as, like, what skill do you want to have as an elk hunter? Because too many dudes are like, man, I just need to kill an elk. I need to kill an elk. It's like, focus on the skills. The stack and racks will come. Stacking racks will come. If you can just build elk hunting skills.

Yeah, I love it. And I think something that's kind of coming in my head is like, you just got to focus on becoming a better elk hunter versus somebody that I don't know how to put this is filling up their living room. You know what I mean? Like, you got to focus on hunting more than killing. I don't. Does that make sense?

The skill, Running versus the running example. You're like, dude, I want a bunch of medals. Do you want metals? Or do you want discipline?

Okay, there we go, do you want.

Like, you know, like when you want to, when, when you want to win in the running space, like, you don't just focus on like, oh, I could win. Like, I just need to do that. Like, no, I need to like, create the skills, build the foundation and like, just alchemy is not that different. Like, create the, create the skills, focus on. It's going back to like, if I do 10 well executed call setups, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a. It's gonna work, right? Like, that's just. So I just had to do it 10 times. Like, focus on the inputs, not the outputs. Too many people focus on the outputs.

Exactly. There we go. You said that way better than I could. So running, for example. Yeah. And I've said this to people, like, if your goal is to just get that marathon metal and that's it. It's actually so hard, you probably won't get there if that's the only thing you think about. But if you can start to embrace your like 3 mile easy run that you have to do on a Tuesday morning at 4am before work. If you can embrace those moments, if you can embrace, like you get together and run with a buddy and just like have a good, have a good run like on a Sunday afternoon. If you can embrace that and embrace the whole journey then and feel good about yourself when you're like, man, three weeks ago I couldn't run this fast, and now I'm running this fast. Next thing you know, you're gonna be crossing the finish line and you're have that metal and you're gonna be like, oh my God, this was awesome. Same thing with elk hunting.

Totally. And like, I mean, like another good running example is like, so you want a permanent mile, right? If you only focus on like, how do I increase? Like, I just run faster, run fast. You're not, you're not gonna get there. Promise you, you know, you have to slow down to speed up. You got to focus on a lot of different things to be great, right? And so I think, you know, elk hunting is very similar. Focus on the skills, focus on at bats, focus on getting in the red zone, and then like call things wins. You know, confidence is a huge, huge piece of it, right? When you're confident, you're deadly. And you know the old saying, killers kill. But you have to have confidence to be that person. And so like, if you go out in the woods, I'll take, I'll just use you as an example. This year it's like, man, I struck out. And then next year, like, God, maybe I'm not a good elk hunter, right? It's like, if you could just focus on small wins, you're like, man, I just want to get, you know, bulls to respond. I want to find out, like, dude, just. And I was talking to Nate Illingsworth and, you know, it's like, hey, focus on the confidence of finding out. This year you found a ton of elk, right? Like, you proved to yourself that you can find elk. That's him. That's more important than, did you kill an elk? Because, like, all of a sudden, you. You stacked a skill. Because finding elk is one of the most important skills of killing an elk, right? If you can't find out, you ain't killing them. So, you know, being able to just find elk, that's a skill. Focus on that. And then, like, okay, now I know how to get close to elk. Like, I can get in the red zone. You're like, man, I went last year, I, you know, was in the red zone once. This year, I was in the red zone six times. Yeah.

Yeah. So if you're. If you're shifting what you're calling your win to these other things, for. For right now, in the short term, I'm not saying dismiss, like, getting a good bull on the ground, like, obviously, that's what we want. But if you're shifting your focus to these things, you're accomplishing these micro wins, you're building your confidence along the way, and then that's going to get you to the quote, finish line versus if. The whole time you're. You might be getting these micro wins, but you're not, like, taking it all in and you're still focused on the ball at the end of the finish line, you're never going to let your confidence build because you're only going to have that confidence build from doing so. Just focus on those micro wins, feel better, get positive momentum, and then that keeps you in the game.

And the other thing about that, too, is I think going back to when you have one tool that you use, if you focus on all these micro wins, you're developing your gut intuition. And what you really want is gut intuition. That's what killers have, right? They know when. What you should be focused on is understanding when to attack, when not to attack. Because the most. The best killer, best elk hunters in the world know when to attack. That's the skill. They're not like, I can. I can hear any bugle and run up and challenge every bull, and that's not the skill they have. Right. So like what you want, gut intuition of when to make a move and when not to. That only comes from experience. That's the thing you can't learn is like knowing how to act and when. And so like, focus on like, man. I need, I need encounters to build gut intuition. I need to think about those. I need to understand what happened, what didn't do. Small after action reviews. Just going through every encounter you had, I think is really important. It's like what I did for many, many years of like, okay, what went wrong here? How could I, you know, have done that differently? Going back to the map and understanding like, you know, you should go back every encounter you had this year, look at the map. How could I have done that better? What did the map say? Because you weren't thinking about the map. I guarantee it. You were like, there's a bugle, we go get bugle. And like, no offense, but like, I did that a lot of years. And then you go back to the map, you're like, ah, if we would have like done this, we would have came from this side. Like, look how open it is here on the satellite view.

Right?

Like you're like, that after action is going to develop that gut intuition. Because next time you hear a bugle, you're going to look at your map and be like, where's a better, where's a better battlefield?

Right?

Like, where's the best battlefield? Do I wait? Do I wait till this evening? Is this evening a good time? Did I see any dudes? Is there any other people in here? Do I have a little bit of time? All these things like, that's, that's what you develop over years.

Yep. And I wasn't in the military, but no different than what those guys do. They do like a post op for everything that they do. Just huge. Whether successful or not huge. Like, what worked, what didn't work? What could we do better next time?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think that's, that's, that's harder for people to do than you would think. I don't know why.

Yeah, because they don't want to. People don't want to like audit themselves and talk about the things that they did wrong. They just want to assume that everything they did was right and it was the elk that were stupid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think everything has a trade off, you know, going back to like this whole like you going super deep. It's fun, but that has a trade. Everything has a trade off. And I think when you like, look at it from that lens. You're like, okay.

Looking at where you hunted. Like, looking at, like, going back and saying, like, you know, oh, how could I have done that differently? Where were the elk? You know, like, how did I. Like all these little things that make you a great elk hunter. You know, it's. It's woodsmanship, but, like, you get that from screwing it up a whole bunch.

Yep. So, Cody, before we wrap up, appreciate your time and everything, but I do want to hear about. I mean, I saw you. I don't know everything you got into this fall, but your hunt with Jaden Bells was awesome. I love listening to that episode. You guys killed a couple of nice bulls, and I kind of want to hear a little bit about that hunt up in BC for your goat.

Yeah, dude.

I mean, that just looks so epic. Can you just talk a little bit about that? A little bit?

Yeah, absolutely. A friend of mine, Jay Nichols, he texted me. I was on a run, and he texted me. And, dude, for context, goats kind of been one of those dream hunts. Like, maybe more than sheep, honestly. Just feels more attainable. And so I had been shopping for a goat hunt. Like, that was the first time I'd ever really purchased, right? And it was, like, a few years ago. My buddy and I were like, man, you know, looking at goat hunts at sheep show and all that. And it's funny because, like, they just skyrocketed in price, and it felt kind of unattainable. And so Jay texted me one day, and he's like, hey, you know anybody that wants a goat hunt? I was like, yeah, how much? Because it could been in my head. And he said, the price. I was like, yeah, I do. You know, I was like, ah, screw it. And he's like, well, it's gonna be like. I'm like, it's a new area. He's like, I would love for you to go, because, like, it's kind of a scout mission, right? Like, it's like, we've never done this. No one's hunted it in the number of years, like, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, heck, yes, I'm in. Like, this is like my. And, like, a part of me. Nothing against guided hunts, but, like, a part of me just doesn't want to show up to Alaska, have some. Be like, oh, here's where we go to shoot the goat. And, like, you know, you go up there and shoot it. And so, like, I was pretty stoked about it. So, long story short, we had, you know, planned this hunt. We're Actually, we actually videoed the whole thing and yeah, more on that. So it's going to be an epic film. But you know, it was kind of a testing ground too. So backstory. I'm developing a smartwatch for the hunting industry.

I was going to ask you about this as well, so feel free.

So this was like a no, no brainer because it was like, cool. Like, we can get some epic footage, we can test the watch, we can do like, you know, some of that hardcore mountain hunting stuff. And dude, it was all of those things. It was an adventure and a half.

I don't know how much I could say about like, how to get in there, but like, let's just say planes, trains, automobiles, canoes. Like there was some boat thievery. Like there was like all of this, like all of the things that are an adventure. And in that podcast with Jaden we were talking about this, like getting into Wyoming was like, you have all these unknowns, right? And in B.C. it was very much that, like, it was like all these unknowns you have to like check off along the way. And like, there's like some risk things. Like there's like, okay, this is going to be sketchy. Like, we know that's going to be sketchy. We know this is going to be sketchy. And like, there's just the sides of things. Like, you know, we had to cross a huge glacier and we had to like get across this like pretty gnarly river thing. And like, you know, all these things are like, add to the adventure and before you ever get to the hunt, right, like, and that's the cool thing about a goat hunt is like, you know, like, you still have to get there, right? And then we get there and you know, first day, absolutely gorgeous and it's like beautiful. And then instantly I think it was like that night rain and socked in for like days. And like, you know, it was only like a four day hunt. Four or five. I don't know what day we killed on, but it was like, it felt like one of those really, really long hunts. And all this kind of came off the tail of Alaska where my buddy Craig and I were in Alaska. 10 day hunt. We got to hunt three days. And I was just like, I spent a ton of time in the tent and it was like, it felt like Alaska 2.0, you know, where it's like you're fogged, socked in, stuck in the tent. You're like, dude, I just want to get out and see. And so it had that like adversity to it during the hunt. We actually didn't see goats until like, well into the hunt. And we picked up some goats and washed a bunch of nannies and kids and yeah, then we, you know, supposed to break breaks. Finally breaks. We see the same nannies and kids we'd seen before and we're like, all right, let's hike out to this point. You know, like, this is finally getting to the glassing knob we wanted the whole time, which is like, you know, multiple days into this and I, I think we made it like 50 yards in that direction and we just kind of come around this corner and I was like, oh, there's a, there's a goat right there. And so we like dropped down and, you know, find this but. Or as Billy, you know, we watch him for quite a while and make sure it's a Billy, make sure everything. And it was like, all the things were like, man, this is like a perfect scenario. He bedded down and I was like, oh, I can get like under 300, like right there, no problem. Like, so all the things to work out. Long story short, yeah, we. We ended up getting him killed and had a gnarly pack out, gnarly adventure, you know, And I think that's like the, the mountain goat to me is the pinnacle because it's just like such a big adventure. And like, maybe sheep is the same. I'm sure sheep is the same way if I ever get to do it. But you know, it's like, go goat hunting is. I feel like you would go into some of the coolest country, the most beautiful country I've ever seen and like, you get, you know, all these adventure sides of it. It was, it was an all time epic hunt. So highly recommend it. So I think, I don't know, I think Jay actually sold out for a couple years, but I was like, yeah, it's. I would do that one again for sure.

That's awesome, dude. I've heard so much good things about bc, like how beautiful it can be. Like, I mean, it's just so big and vast and like, I don't know when or how I'm going to do it, but I want to get up there for something at least. Like a bear hunt. Like, I have a buddy that did a, did a black bear hunt. Just like, that was just so fun that he did just just to get up there.

Yeah, totally. And I mean, like. And so Jay's got this new area and he does a bunch of black bear hunts in there. I might, I'm going to Try to go next year. I do have an Alaska tag next year, too, so I would love to get up and go, like, archery hunt some of this area that he's got. He's got an amazing area. And, like, dude, that's the thing is, like, BC is. It's just. It's crazy. It's so big and so beautiful. Like, some of the photos we got from this trip are, like, absolutely insane. The footage is gonna be insane. Like, it's just. It's crazy cool country. And, like, to me, it's always been the thing about hunting. I'm not, like, chasing, like, a 29 or anything, but, like, the places hunts take you. And even in Alaska, you know, I went to Alaska this year for sake of blacktail. And, like, just, man, I wanted, like, all the places hunting takes you. Right. Like, it's, like, so beautiful. You wouldn't be there anyway. And, like, it's just the adventure side of it is, like, I don't know. Love it.

Yeah, totally. So what can you say about this watch that I seen you posting about? Because I'm pretty interested.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So I guess, long story short, I mean, if anybody wants go check out, we're, like, we're getting super close, and I. I said some stuff on Dan Staton's podcast. He twists my arm into saying in August, and then I got absolutely blown up about it. So, like, we've kept it pretty hush just because, like, the timing of everything is trying to figure it out. And I didn't ever want to say anything before, you know, if it was going to be longer. Like, it's been this thing that I've been secretly working on for almost three years now, and, like, not knowing when everything would be ready, there's just, like, a lot of moving parts. And so we're getting super close. I would say maybe by the time this comes out. So November 1st, we're going to do a big reveal, and we'll be able to show kind of like the. The actual watch and get the look, I guess, for backstory, we did. We did win, like, some fancy international design award, which I think is hilarious, because I'm just, like, some redneck from Mont.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not saying you are.

I'm just saying, like, I can't believe you're doing this.

Which, like, it's funny because, like, I. Like, I fought all these. Like, we went through multiple designers, and I fought these designers on so many things. And, like. And for us to win, it's so comical in retrospect, because you're like, I fought every one of these high end designers and I'm like, no, that looks stupid. You know, like, we're just like, I don't care. I wasn't going for polished look. Right. And so it'll be cool because that's going to come out November 1st. We're going to drop, we're going to be doing a ton of beta testing. We are doing beta testing still, but like we do a ton throughout the end of the year. It's going to launch early 2026. We may do some pre sales and in the end of 25. But yeah, look, essentially it will be shipping product early 26. So yeah, you're going to get a look at it here pretty soon. And you know, if anybody wants is interested, if you're, if you w, if you wear a Garmin and you're, you're more interested in something that's like built for hunters, I recommend jumping on the email list. Actually. Literally going to send out an email right after we finish this to update those guys. So yeah, if anyone is interested, if you're a watch guy and you're like, man, there's, there's a few ways we could improve upon this situation, like, and you feel like I do, then you're probably going to be very interested. In what way?

Where can people find it?

Bridgerwatch.com okay, awesome.

Well, Cody, I appreciate your time and everything. Where can people find you? And I mean, first of all, you have done podcasting for how long? Like you've got to be one of the OGs, right? For hunting podcasts at least.

Me, J. Scott and Brian Call all started the first podcast within a week or two of each other, which was April of 2015. So. Wow, 10 years ago.

Awesome.

Yeah, I guess if people want to find me, the Rich Outdoors is kind of my personal podcast. It's, I talk about entrepreneurship, lifestyle, design, hunting, like kind of all the things I'm interested in, the people I'm interested in. And then if you want to hear like hardcore elk hunting content, the elk hunt podcast is something we started a few years ago now and, and like that's, I mean, I love nerd out about elk hunting. So if anybody's like wants to hear more elk hunting content, check out the Elkon podcast.

Perfect. That's why I brought you on today. Yeah. Appreciate everything. Dude, I love your, your passion for hunting, the way you just tell stories, the way you can help you help educate people, your entrepreneurship mindset, just all the things. So, yeah, again, I can't thank you enough for. For hopping on early in the morning today, working around my work schedule. So I really appreciate it.

Hey, I guess, you know, I would love to post this to the Elkon podcast side too. So if, like, obviously, if our listeners want to check out what you do, like, what's what, what are you about, and why should people listen?

Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. So this is Run the Rack outdoors podcast. So I started Run the Rack. I guess I'm like, this is going to be like episode 34, 35, something like that. So I started back in. I think the first episode dropped at the end of March, April, something like that. Big thing that I wanted to put out there was I'm just so passionate about the backcountry hunting and obviously so running, too. So running is kind of my thing. So Run the Rack's like a little bit of a play on words, Run the rack. But also, too, I look at it as, dude, when I feel like I run the rack, so to speak, that is me going into a hunt, leaving no doubt on the hunt, giving everything I got. Just a disciplined way of doing, not just hunting, dude, everything we do. So I'm also a huge fan of personal development. So I'm all about just the getting better every single day. And I have a ton of personal development books behind me as well as hunting books. And that's just the content that I like to share and put out there to just help guys all just be better every day. Better in the mountains, better in the woods, and just better at life, better in fitness. Just constantly all that good stuff. So I felt a little bit of a calling. I didn't really have. I don't have anybody helping me. All these things I just figured out on my own. Started a blog, website, started a podcast, bought this equipment and don't really know what I'm doing. But, dude, I have enjoyed every single bit of it. So just as much of a passion. Well, maybe almost as much. My number one's the backcountry mountain hunting. I love it. I love it so much. I'm actually from Pennsylvania, literally moved to Boise, Idaho. That's where I am now. Because I love this so much, and I just want to be in the mountains as much as possible, so carrying all the content with me. But point is, my other passion is I love good, deep conversations with people. And I think that's why I've really enjoyed this podcast as well. And also too, just getting a random DM from a random guy, being like, hey, man, going to. I had a guy Message me earlier this year saying he picked up a deer tag here in Idaho and he was just like, can I pick your brain on some gear? And I'm like, dude, absolutely, man. This is what I love to talk about. I gave him my cell phone number. It just kind of like shared some things that work for me. So I just love good conversations with people. Learning, connecting and then. And just getting better every day. So that's what we're about here. I say we as if it's more than a one man show. But that's. That's all we got.

You and your headphones.

Yeah, right, exactly. But if people want to follow along. So yeah, Run the Rack Outdoors podcast. It's on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. My YouTube channel is actually just my name, Weston Houma. And not only do I have all the podcast episodes, but I have a couple other playlists that are essentially just my hunt films. And I really have a passion for just the whole idea of a film. Always loved watching those Go Hunt films. Just how like in Meat Eater growing up, just how you can see the passion in all those films and everything. So I put out my hunt films on there and then I also put out these videos on these races I've done. Again, like I said, big runner. I do ultras. I do marathons. This past summer, I ran a 2:48 marathon at a marathon called Grandma's Marathon in Duluth, Minnesota. And that got me my ticket to Boston. So if you guys want to follow along, I'll be running the Boston Marathon in April. And then I have a bunch of ultras too. I'm going to plan out. So.

I've done okay in the ultra world locally. I was, I guess, getting out there a little bit back in Pennsylvania, but then I got really humbled. Really humbled. My hundred miler, my knee totally blew up. And still on the mission for my 100 mile buckle, I made it to mile 80. I was at like the front of the pack. I probably, my ego probably pushed me way too hard in that race and I learned a hundred milers are just different. But, you know, it's okay. I didn't want to go out there and just walk it, you know what I mean? Like, that's not what I'm about. I wanted to give it my all and my knee blew up. It's a long story, but I took a dnf and anyway, that's what I share a lot too. A lot of my running and fitness and things like that. And that's what I Love.

We need to figure out a way to get the Bridger watch to be in the. In the Boston Marathon. That would be. That would be pretty epic, man. Like, we need to get. You get one of one of these things early.

I will, dude. I'm all over. I love the concept of it, too. I feel like there's still. I mean, the training for hunting, you know, there's a whole industry for it and stuff, obviously, but, like, something like that, that's unique, that's new, and I can see a lot of value in that. So.

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things I. You know.

So we built our own operating system, and we built it around offline mapping.

Right?

So to me, it was like, Garmin was great, but, like, really lackluster in the mapping capabilities. But for the record, we built one of the best fitness watches, too. And so, like, that's a huge piece of what all the. That's why I got into the smartwatches, was for the fitness side. I want to track my fitness track, my sleep track, my. All that stuff. And so, yeah, I think a lot of people. It'll come out more, but it's like, yeah, there's a ton, like, all the fitness capabilities. So, yeah, as a runner, would love to have you using this thing, testing this thing. We're here to build the absolute best product, like, end of conversation. So. And I think, you know, the more people I talk to, the more I think improvement is possible with what's available. So, I mean, the run side is, like, pretty well dialed. I think a lot of the crossover things like the Hyrux or the crossfit or the Mountain Tough, like, those things could be improved with a smartwatch, but, yeah, be super stoked to have some. Some concept from the bridge of watching the Boston Marathon. That's pretty sweet.

I mean. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we can talk more after. But seriously, guys, check out. Check out that. This watch that's gonna be. Because this. This episode will be out beyond November 1st, maybe like the, you know, week after or something like that. But take. Take the fitness seriously, guys. Like, I mean, like I said, there's. There is a whole industry now of, like, you know, training for hunting and the mountain athlete and stuff. But I. I think. I mean, I take it very seriously. Like, obviously, like, I'm doing these races and stuff, and I developed, like, you know, a love for running in itself, but, like, dude, I. I take the fitness and the endurance and everything seriously for these hunts. Like, I was packing out my mule Deer weekend before last. And the whole time I'm just like, God damn, dude. I work so hard and I still feel like, you know, I, I could do more like, God, this is so hard. And just, just how I was running around all September, it's like, take it seriously. Like, look at, I'm not saying you have to have a smartwatch to get in shape, but like I do, dude. I want to pick up every good tool that I can because I, I track, I track my lifts, I track all my runs. I'm constantly looking how to get better and everything versus I don't know, it just seems like a lot of the, the, the training for hunting industry is just like take this pre workout and then go arrow six point bull. And it's like, well, you know, if you really want to build fitness, you really want to, you know, become a student of these things, like there's more to it than that and take it seriously.

Yeah, I mean like I, I take fitness, my fitness journey is interesting. But I do think that like, longevity to me is like, man, I like my buddy Mark Livesay, right? Dude's still nine miles deep and he's 60 years old. Like that's, that's my new goal and you know those things. But I think like from your point, like do hard things in life, especially in your 20s, man, do really hard things and figure out how tough you can be. Like from a mental toughness perspective because like elk hunting will chew you up.

And spit you out.

And like, if you don't have the mental toughness and the grind and that doesn't come from doing one week a year, like mental toughness comes from doing hard things all the time. And so for me it's like, man, focus on that. Like do hard things. It's good for you.

Absolutely. It gives you confidence. Out in the elk woods if you know you can run, you know, however many miles, doing that thousand foot climb to where you heard that elk bugle. I'm not saying it's going to be the easiest thing to do, but you will have a little bit more activation energy of like, okay, I can, I've given myself evidence I can do hard things. Yeah, where that bull is, that's going to be hard to get to. But I have become the person that can do hard things. Let's go kill the bull. Versus if that's the hardest thing you've ever done, you're gonna be like, should.

We just, let's just wait.

Let's just try to call him to us. But yeah, trust me, it doesn't work.

Cody said choose your battlefield. I choose the one in the flat ground.

Right?

Yeah.

Why can't they just come right down here to the truck?

Yeah, but yeah.

Anyway, talk all day on that. But yeah, that's my point.

I appreciate it, buddy. Thanks again.

All right, man. Thanks for hopping on. All right everybody, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next one. See ya.

Alrighty guys. Thanks for tuning in to the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's a hundred percent free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website www.elkhunt201.com.