Elk Unit Selection: Metrics That Matter (and What to Ignore)

Foreign. This is the Elk Hunt podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode of the podcast brought to you by Onx Hunt. If you're not an Elite member yet, you really need to check it out. Because more than just a mapping service, Onx has created an entire hunt planning system. And with the hunt research tool, and on access to Hunt and Fools, E Magazine and even Terrain Ax, these are the ways I'm planning better hunts. I'm going on a bunch of really cool hunts. And if you want to go on more hunts, you want to go on better hunts, having that membership is going to help you do so. Check them out. Use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 20 when you upgrade to Elite. Tons of great benefits. Today's episode of the podcast brought to you by Onx Hunt. Such a great tool. Use it constantly. And if you're not an Elite member member yet, you need to consider it because it has some great tools for researching, planning, and making sure you have hunts for this fall. If you want to get into hunting, you want to have better hunts, go on better hunts. Get Onyx. Elite has the tools you need to plan your fall. From hunt research tool to access to hunt and fool memberships, all these tools that are able to help you and figure out this hunt for the fall. Really tough to do. And I know a lot of people struggle with hunting out of state or finding new areas, and they kind of keep doing the same thing because they just don't know how to figure it out. Onyx Hunt Elite membership will give you tools that'll make you a better hunter or at least put you in better areas to get more at bats. Use the code TRO when you upgrade your account to Elite and you'll save yourself 20% off.

I've got this client who has a heart condition.

Are we starting this already?

Yeah, we can do. Yeah, yeah. I've got this client with a heart condition and he's like, doctors say I can't go above 7, 000ft in elevation.

Oh, that's an interesting one.

Yeah. And he's like, but I really want. He's like, he's in his early 20s, mid-20s. He's like, I still want to go freaking deer, elk and antelope hunt. Like, where do I go?

I mean.

And I was like, doctors don't really know that. Yeah.

Well, I was like, you still listen to doctors. Yeah, well, I shouldn't say that.

I didn't ask any questions about it. Like, but basically I just took this problem as like, okay, sweet, we got to find you spots, like below 6,000ft to haunt elk.

Yeah.

And I was like, hell yeah.

Like, which is kind of an interesting, like, just like starter point.

Yeah.

And so this is actually a good segue. So the problem we want to address in this podcast is how to select a unit. And there's a lot of information. We've. You and I have recorded a lot of information. And so it got me thinking. And a little. This little bit of this came from a. Last time we did a podcast, you and I joked about. Was it you and I? They joked about the gravelies and 410. Like everyone goes there, right. And I had two different people message me and were like, hahaha, that's literally my first, you know, blah, blah, my first two choices. And one of them was like, look at these. You know, here's, here's what I see when I look at the numbers and. Which is an interesting piece of it.

Right.

But the real problem. So if we go into the discussion today is about how to select a unit when you're new, you apply certain variables. And so I'm going to break this problem down in like 15 ways to Wednesday, which is going to get to a point. Let's take, let's say Go Hunt, for example. The problem with Go Hunt is everyone first. Like, you look at a state like Montana, Wyoming, pick one, there's a million places to go. And if you don't have a reference of like, my uncle Joe hunted in X or Y or my roommate, whatever, if you have nowhere to start, it's kind of a blank canvas, which you have to figure out some starting point, right. You have to like chip away at this boulder in some way. Like, so how you do that literally predicts where you're going to end up in certain ways. Right. Some guys are like, well, I'm scared of Grizzly, so I'm not like. So like, like if you just broke the state into. And you did this in your email the other day, which I thought was interesting, where you're like, if we just take general units, right? And we say the west is for back country, but you get grizzlies, the east is for the hustle, but you have private land issues and the south is where you want remote or sorry, you have roaded areas, like lots of access or not even Lots of access, but, like, rotated. Lots of.

Lots of access. Really?

Yeah, like, roughly speaking, but you have lots of people. Right. And so, like, you had broke that down and it's like, that's a good starting point for people, but, like, it's not the whole story. Right. And I think the same. So back to the Go Hunt thing. I stopped using Go Hunt when I figured out that everyone was kind of coming to the same conclusions. And it was like, it was my own behavior. I would select and be like, well, let's just go 320bull and see what units. Right. Or, like, let's go 350bull. What's the best units? And it's. It's good intel because it tells you, like, which units in the state have 350 bulls.

Right.

And then everyone comes back off of that and they're like, well, I'd be happy with, like, a 315 bowl. And so, you know, what are the units I can draw? And, like, it's this funnel system, and the easier you make it. Which was what Gohan did a good job of. Like, they did a good job of making it very easy to figure it out, but it kind of shuffled everyone in the same pieces. And then I became a slow but steady fan of Top Rut because top right back in the day was just like, it was a bunch of intel. It was created by numbers people.

Yeah.

That, like, didn't really forward anything. It was just a bunch of. And so you could search from different ways. Right. You could be like, success rate and then see where that got you. And then you could be like, draw points and see where that got you. And like, it. It allowed you to comment it from different angles. So I started talking to Dylan and I were chatting the other day about Onx's hunt research tool. And. And there's pros and cons. There's a bunch of things I don't like. There's some things I like. And I've been trying to use it more and more and more, but I think people struggle because it doesn't have the trophy select. And so the giant problem in the room right here is, like, how do you select a unit? What is the top, you know, way to start chipping at the big boulder, I think, is the big question. And I think it's different for people who are new versus people who have a lot of experience. You and I have just. We slowly collect data points. It's like, mountain ranges are good. This mountain range, oh, that guy killed this buck. And it takes years and years and years and years. Right. That's kind of like the heart of the issue. I think we could dive into how you select. But in your opinion, is that kind of COVID or is there more to the issue that you see that? Because you talk to a lot more clients than I do.

Yeah, but you're exactly right, though. And that's why I'm valuable. It's not like I. Because, like, there's a whole cadre of guys like us who have been paying attention for a long time.

Right.

And they've got the information.

Yeah.

But if you haven't been paying attention for 10 years, like, and listening in and like, understanding. Oh, like little data points, like you're talking about, like, what do you start with? Right. And for most people, they just like, will come to me with, like, honestly, it's weird. Like, their physicality and what they want out of it are like the first two things. They're like, like, yeah. You know, I've been doing mountain tough for three years, getting ready for my first elk hunt. I want to kill a cow. I'm like, oh, sweet. Like, let's do this. Like, that's different than the guy who's like, I've been applying in states for the last 15 years and I'm trying to find a big bull. And he's like, but, you know, I've got side by sides and like, I got to kind of have to be relatively close to road access. And I'm like, okay, that's a different problem. So. But like, you're saying, like, we're in a unique spot. And my buddy Hayden's dad was like, what I would give to be from 30 to 40 and have the information you guys have while still having the physicality. Because you're in the sweet spot of, like, there's places you can. There's not a place that you can't go, but you can also hunt smart. And it's when you can put both of those things together is when you're dangerous.

Well, that said, why do more 50 to 60 year olds kill giant bulls? Yeah, that's a money thing.

Yeah.

Or you have stacked points. Yeah. There's a. There's a lot of pieces to it.

But I do think that there's an element of, like, guys where we grew up are like, the old dudes are just killing bulls a half mile from the road because they know where the elk are. And like, right. Sit on a.

In a tree stand or what's the number one? Is there number one?

The filter.

Is there a Number one piece of information that changes because, like, you know, it's funny and I, I, I asked, was going to ask what the number one is. And when I was talking to these other guys, the conversation about success rate or elk tag numbers, there's something like, I make a mental note, but I would never, would never. Like, there's so many reasons why, but I would never focus a hunt based on a population numbers, even bull to cow ratio or success rates. First and foremost being that they're all screwed up, right? Like these metrics, don't take them with a grain of salt. And it depends on the state you're in. Like, let's take Montana, for example. Like A, it's an old dude that calls you and asks you a question. Or five, like, not very hard data. Like a lot of subjectiveness there. And B, like, there's lumped together situations, right. Where you have like this pack of units or these general units, like, and then all at like, some of it, it isn't even applicable. So you could look at a success rate in one unit and it has nothing to do with that. It could be a cluster of units or like an entire general area and then it gets lumped together. And so like, they're all just pieces of the puzzle. I think that's the biggest. The most important thing is, like, they're all pieces to the puzzle.

Y.

In my mind, I weight the heaviest is actually looking at a map has nothing to do with stats.

No, zero to do with stats.

It looks a map. Yes, it's the map that I look at. And I, I would even say above insider information. Yep, Insider information is great.

But like, again, if you can. So I actually was just doing this for Arizona because I don't apply in Arizona, but I'm starting.

Yeah.

And I'm like, okay. At this point, I'm trying to just like, snag a tag like this. So I filtered for like the drawing odds, like, where do I have a chance in hell at low points. And then I looked at the map of the units it gave me. And then I didn't care after that, like, what the stats were because I was like, where can I kill bull with my skill set?

Yeah.

Because I'm like, like hearing about your gut, your hunt, and another friend of mine went in that same unit as you that same year. And hearing about that, I'm like, I don't want to hunt thick. Like, yeah, terrible country. That's like hard to even just like find that.

Which is a little bit of like, what hunt do you want. But yeah, you know, all these things, they're all little, little tiny pieces of the puzzle, I guess, is the big picture. And you could sit there and say, you know, a lot of this, our conversation is so I can build this later. Yeah. And I'm trying to think of it like in a, like a triangle. Right. Like not waiting one side more than the other.

Yeah.

And I think that's a really decent indicator because like a lot of people are like, this is the, this is what I want out of a hunt. And this, the metrics approve that in a lot of ways. Like they're, they're searching for those metrics that approve this type of hunt. I think those are good, you know, like what you want out of a hunt. Your, your analogy in the newsletter the other day about general units was really, really good because it's like, what kind of hunt do you want? And that's usually the first question you and I ask someone.

Yeah.

But people kind of overlook that. And the other part of it was like this had a guy ask me the day, I won't use the name or whatever, but he's like, well, I, you know, I'm thinking about going to this unit, but what's your thoughts on. Which was completely different than where he was like, what's your thoughts on this? Because this is how I'm a big mule deer hunter and I'm like, what kind of elk hunter do you want to be? Yeah, you know. Yeah, the at bats thing again, like the end all. Be all I always say is at bats and learning. But if, like, what's the point of getting at bats in western Oregon if you want to hunt elk, like mule deer, virtually nothing.

Yeah.

Right. So like you could get a lot, maybe you could get a lot of bats there. But like, who do you want to be? And I think the it to me, it's like a very long term picture. How do you, where do you want to be? Like, get good at that thing. Right. You know, I, when I chose to hunt out east, it was like it was a skill set I didn't have and I wanted to get better at. And so for me, I was like, okay, let's go figure that out. Now I bounce around because, like, long term, I just want, you know, to be good at everything.

Yeah.

So it's like, I'll go practice this for five years. Go practice this for five years, get those skill sets. But I think at the end of the day, like, what is more important to you, what you want to be as a hunter? Or, like, what your asset is?

Yeah, I think that's a question. Each hunt's a little different. So, like, in Wyoming, where I have had success in a couple of areas doing a couple of different types of things, I feel like I've. Not that I've checked the box because I've killed, like, a big animal there or anything, but I'm like, okay, I know how to do the cat road shuffle and, like, call a bull in and, like, shoot a rag horn. Like, that's. That's cool. But in, like, you're. To your point. I'm like, I don't necessarily. Like, I've got other tags that I can just fill the freezer with now.

Right.

So let's go trick. Try to figure something different out and build a different skill set.

Right.

Do that for deer hunting, too. Like, this year, I went and pounded timber, and it sucked. I did not like it, but it was like, I want to have that skill set to be able to do that in the future, because then when you do have a 220 buck that's living on a freaking timbered slope, I could try to have a chance in hell.

Right. You have that in your back pocket.

Yeah.

And I think. I mean, to me, it's a lot of it, too. Like, even in selecting a unit, I do think about, what's the five year? And you and I talked about this before, but to another guy's point, he's like, well, okay, so here I think I'll use a fairly specific example. Gentleman, Colorado. It's like, well, I got a bunch of points now. Should I cash them? And on this, like, on a great unit, or should I, you know, should I go do cow hunts? Can I do, like, some other hunts before I cash those? Yeah, you know, before you cash those points in, this may go against some of the things I said in the past, but, like, in that situation, I'm like, even if I had five or six points, 10 points, I don't. Maybe not 10, but, like five or six points, I may choose a unit that's like two or three, so I can hunt it. You know, like longevity. Right. Learning a unit. If I'm in learn mode, I'm in learn phase. I really like those tags that are every two or three years because, like, you get familiar with unit.

Yeah.

If it's every seven years, it's a different unit. It's different, whatever. You don't learn a ton. So there is some of that, like, think about Wyoming, right? Like, do you want to wait for, you know, hold out for the, I don't know, whatever unit.

10 point.

Yeah, 10 point. 20 point unit. Or do you want to like, hunt that general every three to five years? Yeah, I think it plays into some of the. Even choosing a general.

Right?

Like, yeah, yeah. Could I hunt here or could I go here every three years?

Right.

And like, again, that's going to roll into. Everyone has their own personal strategy of how many times you want to elk hunt. You want el every year. You know, are you living in New Jersey, you live in Colorado, you live in Montana. Like, it all changes. But I. To me, it's like, if you want to be good at elk hunting, choose units that can get you good at elk hunting.

Yeah, yeah.

That matters more than what you're going to kill. 350 bull, 320 bull. Because a lot of these units, like, you know, you could even look, I'll pick on hunting full for a bit. Like, you could go to hunting fool. And you know, a lot of Those places say 310 to 330 potential. Much better. You know, whatever, man. I take all that with a grain of salt. Like, it's good. Rough reference. But.

But if you can't, you can kill.

20, 20 bull in a lot of units. Wyoming. Yeah, you can kill a 320 bull in a lot of units in Montana. You know, like, even if they don't say it. Yeah.

Like, but I think it just comes back to like in like southwest Wyoming, like, that terrain just lends itself to killing elk, for instance. Right. And people will know it. And like, that's part of why you see some influencers hunting that part of Wyoming and you see a lot of content around there. It's like, yeah, the success is good. And like, you see an elk and like, but it doesn't mean that. That if someone's looking for a big bowl that they should necessarily be going there.

Yeah.

You know, it just. Okay, so back to your. If you want at bats. Going back to your triangle of like how to select a unit, I think terrain is a big piece. Does it have what you're looking for? Right. Like, if you're. Does it have the opportunity for a bull to get really old or does it have enough elk that is going to give you a lot of at bats? Like, that's important. And then also figuring out, like, where you're at in the point game, like you're just talking about.

Right.

If you're just like.

And it's a balance of like all three of those. Right, right. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%.

I'm dealing with that, with the Colorado situation too because I'm in that six, seven point game now and I'm like, I didn't intend to get here and here we are. Yeah. So when I go, I'm going to choose a unit that has the terrain that like allows me to kill something. And I'm gonna choose a unit that.

What do you see in terrain that does that?

Like, I don't like hunting thick stuff just because I like my elk. For elk. Yeah. Specifically because I like to sit back in glass. Like, because I don't have the fortitude to pass stuff. Like if it's within striking distance, I'm.

Gonna try to kill it.

Like I. I just know myself too well. So like, okay, terrain that allows me to glass couple that up with, you know, I want to make sure that there's places that stuff can get old. Colorado, that probably means there's some private land, right. You know, largely that there's going to be some sanctuary ground. And then couple that with the amount of points I have. Shit, like a four season tag that could be really good. I don't know if that's like necessarily what I want. Maybe a first season tag. You know, that's like, that's the piece of. That's the variable that I'm missing now. I don't know. No to the point side.

Yeah. And yeah, I think it just comes into like multi year strategy though. Like you had. You're like, well, could I wait? Could I just turn Colorado into a. You know, because like for me, I always have like a few states and I'm like, shoot for the moon, whatever. Long term plans, right? Well, I don't know if they're plans. Long term hopes, but like, you know, like say Nevada, like long term hopes. Like it's not like I'm like, oh, I'm gonna hunt Nevada every three years. Like, no, it's not gonna happen. But to your point, I think the. Another mistake I see and I'd be curious your thoughts on this. Talking to a lot more people than I do. People pick units. When I say, I look at the map and figure it out, like, is there enough ground? Is there enough plays? Right? Like, I'm not looking for one play because like that's gonna get screwed up. But to your point, like, I don't want too many plays, you know? Like, is it all just a bunch of public where everyone goes, you know?

Yeah, that's the southern Wyoming issue.

Well, I was gonna say it's the. Yeah, it's kind of the gravelly issue.

Yeah, it's like very similar.

Yeah. There's a lot of elk, a lot of people.

Yeah.

You know, so like every, every problem creates a different problem or every, you know, up creates a down.

Yeah.

If you see any unit that's like too good in one way, like, there's probably a reason, right? Like, like you're not getting for one or two points. A unit that has an 80 success rate doesn't happen. Like, and if you see that there's probably a reason or like, you know, this is some other thing. So like you almost have to look for. I look for the places that are a good blend of like everything. You know, it's like a little bit of this, a little bit of that. But at the same time, I look at the map like, okay, can I figure something out? And it's not like one, one hack. And I see a lot of guys come to me with their scout plan and it's like, we're gonna go to this ridge and we're hunt from this lake. And then what?

Yeah, yeah, and then what? Dude, it's so funny when you're talking about though, like you're analyzing all these different factors. I was just talking to a client and a friend of mine named Jeff. He probably is going to listen to this, so shout out. But he was like, you know, talking about being a hunt investor and it's the same crap as like if you're trying to pick a stock in the stock market, like if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. There's probably some issues here. Right. And you just have to like, like, honestly, just going with the blue chips for the long term strategy is like probably going to get you where you want to be. Better than trying to be like, hop on the latest greatest train.

That's a great analogy too. Cuz like, you know, the blue chip of hunts is, you know, those decent units where you're going to get at bats, you're going to like, you have a good hunt. Because I do think the other side of that is, you know, to this guy that had the conversation about Colorado, you know, saving up for a big hunt and then doing shitty hunts the whole way there.

Yeah.

Is not also not a great strategy. You know, like I, I'd rather see someone getting a good unit, not a great unit. So like, let's just. This doesn't work. But let's say bad unit, good unit, great unit. Don't save up for great units while hunting bad units because you're not really learning anything. Yeah, I'd rather get your ass kicked. Yeah, you're just getting your ass kicked. And so. And you're really not getting at bats on the scene. So there's a lot of guys that maybe shoot for the moon out of state and then hunt Washington, you know, crap units or whatever. Oregon. Crappy is whatever. And it was just like, I don't know if that's the strategy I'd like, you know, I want a good hunt with, you know, the. The ideal is, like, finding good hunts that might have that great possibility. And those are usually like, say, a unit next to.

Right.

I was trying to think, like, I don't know, say we'll take sled Springs or something. Like in Oregon, where it's like, it's butting up against the Waha. So, like, maybe it's a good hunt with a great potential.

Yeah.

Like, maybe not.

Maybe migration hunts are like that too.

Right.

You're like, man, this is probably gonna suck, but if we get the weather, it could be bonkers, you know?

Totally. And there's a little bit of, you know, like, say, the Arizona hunts, where it's like, it's going to be a real shitty hunt, but it might be a great hunt. Like, I don't love those. I choose those intentionally. But, yeah, I think if you're focused on at bats, I don't think that's the right strategy.

No. But if in that. So for up here, you know, we're talking about, you get snow or not migration lines down there, it's, did you get good moisture or not? Like, or in the inverse, did you get too much moisture and everything spread out?

You know, it's in different places.

Yeah. And so, like, you just can't. Everyone will. This is like my least favorite part about people being like, oh, this is a great unit. And I'm like, yeah, you got it on, like, the perfect year to go.

Right, Right, right.

That makes. I mean, I think about that a lot with Colorado, all of those second, third, and fourth tags, it's like, was, were the conditions right for your hunt or not? And, like, people will or not. Like, based on how it turned out.

Colorado, to me feels like that one. That's hard for me to, like, figure out. And I haven't done a ton because I just don't really care. But, like, there's kind of everywhere.

Yeah.

And it's funny as it changes now, it's like, a lot is going to change. So there's kind of most of the places, like, trying to figure out what's good what's not good? Because some of the places, dude, you and I were looking at some units, and then we talked to some guys like, oh, it's garbage now. And you're like, ah, dang. Like, the numbers looked good. How do you avoid that problem?

I honestly, this might be good, might be bad, but usually when someone says something is trash, I disregard what they say. I just totally, like, turn a blind eye to it because we've just. I mean, that just seems to be. If something's really, really good, I rarely hear about it, right? Rarely. And then if something, like, is bad, then, like, because I was talking.

Do you think getting any information is a bad idea then?

It depends. Like, but this is where I like, if you filter it appropriately, like, through this thing of, like, does it have the terrain? Does it have what you're looking for? Does it match your points or whatever, like, your expectations? That's where, like, I think you filter that first, and then you find information. Because I was talking to this dude down in. And I know this is a dear version of it, but hear me out. This dude is talking about a unit in southeast or southwest Utah about deer hunting. He's like, man, it's. It's not what it used to be. You're gonna have to, you know, grind. And I don't think you should pass 180 bucks. And I was like, yeah, you're not. You shouldn't pass 180 bucks anywhere. Like, yeah. He's like, yeah, you used to be able to pass those again. And I'm like, and that's the same thing.

It's all relative.

It's all relative, right? Like, people are like, ah, it's not what it used to be. And I'm like, it still sounds pretty damn good to me.

So you're saying there's 180 bucks?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

So. And that's, like, the thing. I think I. I'm happy we are the age that we are because, like, we didn't get those days right. And so we don't have as bad of, like, freaking grumbliness.

Yeah. Maybe it's because we grew up in Oregon, and we're like, what?

Yeah. For real?

You're saying there's 300 bulls? Nice, dude.

Absolutely. I mean, honestly, that's been the biggest difference when I'm guiding these, like, commissioners tags and stuff is like, they're looking for. They're looking for three. 33, 40, 350 bullets. And I'm over here like, dude, we saw 22 bulls today. Like, this is sweet, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Perspective matters.

Perspective matters big time. And it's just like I was telling you before we hopped on, like, I had a client that came out to a general hunt in Montana, didn't kill a bull or. And they were going to kill a cow or whatever, but, like, these guys were from Wisconsin, and they came out and, like, saw elk every day, and they just had a hard time getting them killed. And they were like, this was the best hunt we could have imagined for a general unit. And I was like, that's what I'm talking about.

Okay, so I'm going to take you. And I intentionally didn't tell you this, but want to take you outside your comfort zone. Oh, and we're going to use. I hope you don't know the state. South Dakota.

Oh, don't know it at all. Zero. I know it. Zero.

So just, like, I don't want to use this because, like, how this will apply to other people for elk in, say, Wyoming or Montana or wherever. Colorado, if you had to go and find a unit in, I don't know, South Dakota for deer.

Yeah.

I'm not going to specify species because I actually, like, you could go either way on that.

Yeah.

But, like, what would be your system for success?

I'm gonna first look at the map and find places where I could kill one. Because, for instance, I know South Dakota enough to know that that southwest corner where it's all black Hills, and it's like timber and it's ponderosa pine. Right. I'm gonna have a hell of a hard time killing a buck in that. And.

But it's only the only public there.

Yeah.

I think most of the guys look at that and say, like, oh, there's a bunch of.

There's a bunch of public land.

There's national forest. Let's go there.

And. Okay, so, like, let's say you force me to go there because that's the only public land.

Right.

I know there's other public in that state, but you do know the state. There's a little bit. So. But if you force me, like, okay, this is the only public place. Like, I'm basically going to look at all of the fringe country and try to find fringe stuff that's, like, not what people are looking at because they're. Because everything on a green. On a map, you're like, well, where's. Like, you know, there's a burn in here. Maybe I can glass that. And, like, so I'm going to be looking at, like, where the deer coming in and out of private and, like. Or elk, for this matter.

Right.

Where are they coming in off private. And, like, how can I make that hustle move instead of just going to the center of it?

Okay.

But, yeah, I got to make sure that there's terrain. I can kill something in there first. Right. Like, because otherwise. And the inverse is the. The same for elk. If I'm not. If I like to call elk, I'm not going to be looking at South Dakota and go, I want to go to the prairie. Like, right. If there's a bunch of BLM land out there or whatever. And you're like, I heard that there's elk out here. They come off the private.

And so you wouldn't figure out which tag you could get first?

No, I'd try to find the place that I can. Or I'd, like, try to find a place I can kill one.

Okay. And then find a place. You find them. You go, map. And then you go. I'm assuming. I don't. I don't want to say anything, so you go, map. What's the next step?

And then you go, like, okay, how do I get a tag? Yeah. And then you go, okay. So usually what happens is someone will go, okay, this is the train I want to hunt.

Yeah.

It takes five years to get attacked.

Right. Because map, tag back to map redraw.

Yeah. But then you. I think it's worthwhile, like, looking at ways you can get creative and, like, in the version of elk hunting, go find a cow tag and go see if it's going to be worth it. Or, like, go find a different species of tag and see if it's gonna be worth it. So that guy that has to stay under 6,000ft, he's gonna have three years to go or two seasons before he can draw a bull tag in that area. And I says, okay, go mule deer. Hunt it, because you can draw that tag easy. And as you're mule deer hunting, look for elk sign and, like, look for elk and, like, determine whether or not you can actually make it happen there.

Do you ever rely on, like, who in my network is this wor. Is this a conversation worth having for everyone else? Maybe.

Yeah.

My next thought would be, like, who do I know in South Dakota that would, like, tell me what I. What they know about South Dakota that I would know about Oregon?

Right.

Which is, like, yeah, you know, like the. The. The general. Everyone knows when you grow up there type thing.

Yeah.

Do you ever think through that process or.

No, I do, but I also take it with A grain of salt. Like, so I was thinking about this and God, I love Zach Bohe. He's great, right? But I was talking to him about Idaho elk hunting, for instance, and he's like, man, it's just like, not what it used to be. He's like, you used to step out of the truck and just hear bugles everywhere. And I'm like, okay, that's not helpful. It's not helpful to know what it used to be and how bad it is now. I want to know how to kill one now, right? And if that means, like, getting away from old school information, that can be helpful. Because I think things have changed so much. Like, sometimes that old school information is only so valuable. Like, you hit a limit.

Right, right, right. And then it's like, take it with a grain of salt, you know, like, yeah. I think about the old timers, you know, in Oregon, where it's like, wow, wow. Yeah. Can't kill anything anymore. The damn wolves. And you're like, well, is that. Is that true? Or like, what. What usefulness can I get? Yeah, how do I ask better questions? How do I ask questions? Yeah, how do I ask better questions?

I did this, actually. I've been. I've got a bunch of points for deer in Oregon, and I'm like, trying to burn them. And there's an outfitter. So basically what happens in Oregon is if there's few enough tags, they give one tag to a non resident, but then it goes, one year it'll go to the outfitter, one year it'll go to the non resident in the pool. And so I found the outfitter that kept taking my tag and I like, DM'd him the other day and I was like, hey, how bad did that fire burn this year? Like, is there anything left? And that's a very specific question, right? And he goes, no, it torched all the freaking mahogany and the aspens. He's like, it is nuked. And I was like, oh, like, okay, so I don't want to hunt that now because those deer aren't going to be in it next year. Right. Five years down the road when everything. Like, maybe.

But yeah. Do you think outside of the box and say, okay, if they're not in said unit, are they in the neighbor? Like, those deer went somewhere?

Well, actually, it's fine. I was like, this outfitter killed a bull that the fire displaced because the elk were in. You couldn't kill elk where this fire happened. And those elk got moved into a general unit, archery over the counter in Oregon, in the desert. And he was able to make. He killed a good bull. Like, just because, like, that change forced something new.

Right.

So there's probably an element of that.

Pendulum always be swinging, dude, that's.

There's probably an element of that. Like, especially you talk about these, like, catastrophic fires where things get shifted around and stuff. Like, I always. My brother's looking at a elk unit for his wife next year, and it had a big catastrophic fire, and I'm like, perfect.

Like, right.

Like, either A, go out there and find the places within the burn that didn't torch, or B, just like, work. Use that as like, a, block it off and then just figure out, like, what if. What if you couldn't hunt there? How would you hunt this unit?

Yeah. How do you. Let's take a state like Montana, which you kind of know, you've learned a lot.

What.

How do you boil down? Like, just take the general, for example, I guess is in my head. How do you decipher between units? Right? Like, how do you decide? Like, man, there's so many units. Like, how do you. How do you. What. What pieces are you trying to distinguish?

Literally texting a guy about this this morning, and I was like, okay, you're going to go open country and, like, look over a lot of critters, like, because you can just see them, or are you going to go to the mountains and, like, grind it out? And in this case, we're talking deer. But, like, it's same with elk. It's think a lot. It's like, you're only going to see two or three, four or five bulls or bucks in a week. But in the mountains. But one of those might be the one you want.

Yeah.

Right. So can you make good on that? Same with. In the. In the open country, you're like, I'm going to see a lot more critters. Like, I'm just going to actually just be able to see them.

Yeah.

A lot of times they're on private or whatever, and then you have to manage that situation. But.

And a lot more people.

And a lot more people. Especially when you talk about, like, a deer situation in eastern Montana, there's just dudes bobbing around all of your. Yeah.

What's your thought? This is. I'm formulating this thought as we speak. What's your thought on reversing? Because everyone says, what do I want? I'm going to go that direction. The odd. The antithesis of that would be, what do I not want out of a hunt? And so then I would Say, well, I don't want, I don't want. Say I don't want thick. You know, I don't want to, I want to be able to see. But like that is too specific. So it's like, you know, you could see a lot of places that aren't open country too. Yeah, yeah. As someone who grew up in western Oregon, when people say they want to be able to last, like you can glass everything in Montana. I don't understand that question. So just working backwards from like what do I not want? Because when you go from what you do want, I think you, you end up in a certain criteria event of things when you start with let's like slowly cross out and say like let's go region by region. What do I not want?

Right. Yeah.

And then saying because I'll use the, the, the other side of this coin, which is like what do I do? I want to be able glass. So instantly people go to like the prairie or open country. Right. But that's not necessarily the only thing. Like that's where everyone goes. So like how do you work backwards from that? Yeah, I want to be able to glass, but I don't want a lot of people. So what is the negative sides of like the units? Like so if we just said regions like back to the general season, because this is a little bit smaller example the general season in Wyoming you say, well, I don't want grizzly bears. So that's a, that's like we've filter. And so then like we're like, I don't want hustle. Like I hate when I don't have public ground. Like that sucks. I don't want that. So which one do you not, you know, like which I don't like a lot of people. So like, you know, so immediately that takes you.

Yeah. And then that puts you into the thick. That's like a deadfall tangle.

And just, I just think no one's coming at it from that angle.

It's right. Well. And this is why I spent so much time pounding timber last year is because I was like, okay, I'm going to find something I really want to kill in some thick timber country. Because that's where people are not able to glass very well and like pick through the top end. Yeah. So you got to have that skill set. And it's just like it's something. Garrison actually is a guy I was texting about Montana. He did that with a four season Colorado bull tag this year he was like, where is it going to be hard? And then he snuck into the timber and just like, pounded timber, man. And he.

Well, and I think, I mean, that's. That's the problem is that everyone's choosing, like, everyone wants to open country where they see, like, it's like saying, like, well, I just want to hunt the perfect conditions.

Yeah.

You know what the perfect conditions get you, like, a thousand of your best friends. Yeah. Like, and. Or.

Or just like, chock full of private and it's like a pain in the ass. Right, right.

Like, yeah, there's always downsides. Right. And so, like, I'm interested in this, like, concept of, like, taking Montana General and saying, like, what do I not want? And so, like, if you don't want humans, which I think is arguably, it's close to number one, I think you can hunt around humans. And, like, I think trying to get completely away from humans is like, you get to private, but if you could just weed out areas, like, be like, well, I don't, like, Witcher is going to have way too many people or too much pressure. Yeah. And then like, basically going. Taking all the general units on a map and then start crossing them off and then you work backwards.

Yeah. You could totally do that now. Okay. Have you ever thought about saying, I don't give a crap about how many people are there. I'm gonna try to get creative.

Yes.

I think about this in Colorado a lot.

Yeah.

Because I have to. You have to. And. Right. I get people bitching to me all the time. Oh, there's people everywhere in this unit. In New Mexico, there's people everywhere in this one. And I'm like, where is that not the case? It feels like. And so you have to just always be thinking about that piece, even in these commissioners tag hunts. It's not that we're seeing a ton of people, but I have to go, where have people not been knocking off the top end for the last four years?

Right. You have to think about, like, the age class.

Right.

And I think this is true for bears. You want to kill a big bear? You know, I find it really interesting because bears tend to, as a general rule, not move as far as, like, some elk, but they also live. Like, a big, big bear is probably, let's say 12 to 15 years old, maybe even older. It's like, where has someone not been for 15 years? That's a crazy. Like, you're. You're just not going to get those beautiful basins. You can see everything.

Yeah.

Bears get old when you can't see them. The same is true for deer and elk. So when people say they want to be able to see everything they want, like the open country, like, good luck. Unless you have the private problem, there's nowhere for that deer to get old. Right. Like, he's getting picked off. You're exactly right. Like, deer, like, you know, big deer's five.

Right. So you can kind of get away with.

Yeah, you can kind of get away because they. They come up much quicker. Like where an elk, you know, he's got a. He's got to have a Heidi hole that he's been there for nine years, 10 years, something like that.

Yeah.

A bear's 15. You know, it's like all these things matter. Yeah. You almost said you. You have to think outside of the box. And this goes back to, like, anytime you're selecting units, it's never one thing or another. It is like, how do you find the blend of all of them? Right. It's not. It's not where you can see everything because then you don't get age class. It's not where, you know, it's super thick and temporary because they get age class, but now you can't see them.

Yeah.

And so it's like, it's just basic analogy of, like, that's what it's in the middle.

Yeah. There's always a quirk. I think I said this in the podcast or email. I did. I was like, there's always a quirk to every hunt.

Yeah.

Because if there wasn't a quirk to it, then it's going to take 30 points to draw. You know, like, you're going to have to pay the yin yang to go hunt it. Yeah. And that's just like the N. Yeah, that's. It goes back to that investment analogy. It's just like, there's no secrets at this point. It's like the secret is whether or not it fits what you're trying to do.

But it's. It's also a game that's ever, ever changing, too. Yeah. You know, we just talked about big fires that moves units around, like.

Yeah.

That's where the hustle of tag strategy unit selection comes. That's why guys like me and you change units. Because in theory, we would have figured it out. We would just selected that unit. Everything changes. Right. And so you're constantly reevaluating. In some places, maybe, maybe not. You know, Utah comes out with a late archery hunt. You know, we're like, you know, is that a potential or is it not?

Like, you know, Montana comes out with a muzzleloader season.

Right.

December.

Right. We don't talk about that one though.

That's right.

And so like all these. Yeah. I mean, I think you see elk moving a lot. Like units changing wise. That's usually the guys looking for closer to the great side than the good side though. I would agree. I would think.

Yeah. Okay. So what do you say to someone who. And I hear this a lot. It's like all this technology is making it easier for people to find honeycombs that I've. I've spent 20 years trying to find this one basin and I finally have it and then these non residents from Wisconsin somehow figure it out. Like they found it on the Internet or whatever.

Yeah. I just had this conversation the other day. Some old timer.

Yeah.

What do you think it was like goddamn Onx.

Yeah, exactly.

Ruined my spot. And it like I feel for the person. Like, honestly, like, you know, like everyone has their honey holes and it sucks when it gets ruined. Like I'll have empathy for that. At the same time, it's never been easier to find more spots.

Yep.

And it's always a moving target. Like you know, for everyone. That, that Onyx ruined the, the little spot that you could access the road. Onyx has created other problems. Like no one door knocks anymore. Right. And so no, like it's always moving. And when you're a student of the game, it's not a big problem. It's also created. It's never been easier before to be able to hunt multiple states.

Right.

You just have to be. It's. I mean, on the simple version, it's like a Colorado hunt. I have to just think like, what do people not see? What are they not doing? Right. Certain influencers or whatever. Like certain trends in the industry made backcountry hunting super good. And like at a time, like there used to be a time where I was the only one doing that. Right. Like it was like, man, we were deep or whatever. Now that's a thing. So like what is, what is the inverse? Like what is that every wave creates, you know, a new opportunity somewhere. Yeah. I just refuse to, you know, fall into like the negativity trap of like, it's all ruined. Like it just is what it is. Like, yeah, yeah. It's like same as business, the same as anything. It's like there's always trends, there's always things. And like to me it's like I'm always going to find the void. And like that's what I've just folk. And if, if you're listening and you want advice, become good at Finding the void.

Yeah.

In business, in life, in whatever. Like, yeah. See where the puck is going. Like, skate where the puck is going.

Right.

Like, but at the same time, like, what. What else is creating. Where's the void? Creating. If everyone is skating where the puck is going, where's the. Where's the other opportunity? Right? And I think I've just got really good at E scouting and figuring that out. And, like, that's the fun part to me. Like, maybe I'm a nerd, but, like, the dude this time of year nerding out on, like, Onyx has a new hunt research tool, and I'm gonna, like, figure it out that. I don't know. I like it. Yeah.

Well, you just talked about, like, the student of the game part, and I'm like, the people who get pissed because their honeyhole got ruined. It's because they're not a student. They don't know how to find new honey holes.

And I feel bad for that. Like, I respect that.

Like, I respect it.

You know, your grand. Like, I just laugh. Like, you know the spot my dad had. You know, like, my dad hunted Ukiah. You know, like, there's no.

Get some. Yeah. Show.

We. We slayed spikes in Ukiah unit. And, like. Like, I just. Like, it's not somewhere I'm gonna ever go back to, you know? Like, and that's. That just is what it is. Like, I don't. I don't think Wade's gonna be like, dad, you know, like, we're going back to you. It's just, you know, everything changes if you get frustrated at that. Like, learn to love the process them more than the end goal. And I think that's what it really boils down to. Like, if you love the process of finding new things, exploring new country.

Right.

Like, you're always gonna be doing that. I think people who get romantic about the outcome of, like, and. And some people just, you know, they. All they want to do is kill an elk, then that's fine. Like, that sucks for them. Like, yeah, they don't want to be a student of the game. And I feel. I feel actually, like, feel bad for them. But it's a skill. Like, you have to learn. Like.

Yeah.

It just is what it is.

No, it's exactly right. It's so funny. Like, there's this. There's this guy who sold me my Tacoma 2020 or whatever, and I got to be, you know, chat. Chit chatting. Every car salesman is a chit chatter, right? Yeah. And we were talking deer hunting, and he Was telling me how he's killed a nice four point and four different mountain ranges, like, not far from, from Lander. And I was just like, no. He was like, are you, I was like, are you e Scouter? He's like, no. I just go, like, I've, like, I've never been to this place before. Let's go check it out. Totally. And yeah, so, like, I respect for.

Those guys, by the way.

Yeah. Like, and the funny thing is he's hunting from like the freaking truck and he's digging up stuff, like, without trying very hard. And I'm just like, that's the right attitude. Like, you don't have to have every like, whiz bang, like, thing dialed. Totally. Totally. As long as you're just like, yeah, let's just go have a good time to figure it out. I.

There is, there's luck and there's skill or luck or whatever you want to call it in serendipity too. Like, you know, just going somewhere and trying to figure it out.

I.

You and I can totally get too caught up in the weeds of like, building systems, E scouting, checking off the boxes and like, you know, like, that's just what we do. But like, some, some dude is going to drive out there and just walk down a ridge and shoot a giant.

Yeah.

It's like, damn it. And so, and in a lot of ways, like, I respect the guy who's like, I'm gonna go check out, you know, this. Never been there. There's a few places I have, like, they don't necessarily make sense on all the checkboxes, but I want to go check them out. Right. Like explore new country. That's. I don't know, a part of it, like, to me is like, I like checking out new stuff. I, I, a lot of that usually stems from E scouting, but sometimes you catch a tip and you're like, interesting. I never would have like, figured that out my way.

Yeah.

Which is like a whole other interesting beast. And it's like a good thing to just listen and talk to people. And it's just like, you know, we had this, we had this conversation last time, but it's like sometimes you just pick up a tip. Huh. You know, like, and then you go back, you reverse engineer it, right? And it's like, I've talked about this, but like, finding areas that were very huntable that I found old school methods, like boots on ground and figuring them out and then reverse engineering that E scouting to be like, how did I miss this? And figuring out why super Interesting. And then when you're a student in the game, you start doing that and it's like. It's like that timber density thing. Like, once I know this timber density, then I can start to, like, reverse engineer it. And why did that work and those things? And so, like.

Like for late season bull hunting, you mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a great example. Right?

And it's like, that never would happen unless I was just like, wandering, wander around the woods or just like, looking out the damn window, you know? Like, it could be anything. Like, I'll be driving and be like, oh, that's interesting. Like, you start to see things and then like, you, like, I wonder if I can. And like, you reverse escout it, right? Like, you're like, oh, I fishing or whatever.

Dude. I flew over my deer unit in Idaho. Like, I flew from Bozeman to Salt Lake and I flew over the deer unit I was hunting.

Noted. He's like, oh, where was Jake?

Yeah, yeah. And I'm sitting there taking video out the plain window of the mountain range I'm gonna be in.

Yeah.

Because I'm like, oh, look, I can. Like. Yeah, I'm looking at it right now from the air. It's freaking sweet. Yeah. And people who. I think part of it is just having your mind trained to, like, think about those things. But the other piece of that, like, what do you think about someone who creates a plan around getting lucky? I know there's like some. There's some quote about how, you know, plan to get lucky isn't a plan.

Or whatever, but still, I think he may. Yeah, you. Maybe I just did it solo. I. There was a podcast, we did, like, the four Types of luck, and it stem from like, Sean Pury talking about the four types of luck in business. And. And I think there's a lot of truth in that, right? Like, there's like, you can make your own luck. Like, the whole concept of, like, if you put yourself in the right place at the right time enough, like, you're gonna get lucky, right? And that's like, you know, but you can create that like a. Go spend 100 days a year in the woods and get lucky.

Right.

In really great areas, right? Like, so you kind of made your own luck. Like, you know, an elk's gonna step on you if you're in the right spot long enough. And so, like, I don't know if that's what you're getting at, but, like, making your own type of luck, it's, you know. Yeah, I. I don't love the saying, like, the harder I work, the luckier I get. It is true, but flawed.

Yeah.

And it kind of, if you like look at it from like, what's the saying? Like a brain surgeon and a dishwasher work just, you know, just as hard. But you want to make. In a lot of ways, it's like you could work your face off in the wrong unit. And like you're never gonna get lucky. And so it's like it's. Is it a correlation or a causation? And so sometimes, you know, yes. You put yourself in the right place and there are enough days like you're gonna get lucky. That's making your luck to me. And sure, working hard is a piece of that, but it's kind of table stakes.

Yeah.

In my opinion, like, you know, where you hunt is just as important as how you hard you work. Maybe more important. And it's like there's a saying in entrepreneurship, like, what you work on and who you work on it with is more important than how hard you work. Because if you're working on the wrong thing, you could work as hard as you want and it's the wrong thing every time. And so if you're in the wrong unit, it doesn't matter how hard you work, you could, you could out walk everyone in the world. You do 100 miles a day. It doesn't mean you're gonna get lucky.

Yeah.

So like it's a correlation. Sure. You have to work hard. That's a stable table stakes. You have to be in the right unit, you have to be in the right areas. You have to do it for long enough, right?

Yeah.

And so like even just this concept of like setting up your life to make a 10 day hunt, if you hunt one week a year and you go from a seven day hunt to a 10 day hunt, like over the lifetime, like you're going to be more like more successful. Right. Like, like all these things. So like, yes, you can make your own luck. I think how you go about it is really, really important. Choosing the unit might be the most important thing. Like this podcast might be the most important that you'd figure out the most important skill set of elk hunting, shooting your bow. Yeah. Super important, right? Yeah. Fitness, pretty important. Kind of important. Like whatever. Like it's good where you like how well you can choose a unit might be the most important.

I think about like my friend, I just did a release today, actually I just did a podcast with a friend of mine who his grandpa had this tag in Wyoming and on the maps, it looked like there was good two tracks everywhere. And he was talking about how, like, he got there and he realized, like, oh, we can't drive trucks down these things and they didn't have a side by side or whatever to do it. Yeah. And so all of a sudden, this great unit for grandpa turned into a dog turd unit for grandpa. And it's that same thing, like, oh, knowing that he should have gone to the Snowies, where there's roads everywhere, and grandpa could bump into an elk crossing the road.

Right.

You know?

Right. Well, okay. So I think somewhere along the line, I used to talk a lot about. I think it's an E Scouting course I did where, like, what is your asset? Right? Like, do you have dirt bikes? Do you have bikes? Do you have really strong legs? Do you, you know, do you have horses? Do you have llamas? Do you have, like, whatever, your asset? I.

It's really hard if you don't have any.

That's true.

Yes.

Like, if you only have a truck. Well, if you only have a rental car, it's much harder than you. Like, you know what I mean? Like, everything has that. But I also think you can go too far with that. And I was watching. Do you watch that Matthews video that Brett Sang did?

It was so good.

So good.

It was dope.

So good. One of the best films I've seen ever. Yeah. Yeah.

For hunting. Like, it actually told a freaking story. And it was. It was well shot. He killed a bull. Like, it was awesome.

It was, yeah, a great story, but it's a really, really good lesson. And don't get married. Married to the transportation. And horse guys are pretty guilty at this.

Right?

Like, horse guys get horses and then they. The unit, they choose the area, they choose the hunt. The end. Like, maybe if that's your thing, like, great. That's your thing. But Brett Sang's video is a really good example of, like, here, you know, Brett, like, I shouldn't. I should do a podcast with him and let him tell the story. But, like, in my opinion of that, that situation, it was like, you got married to the thing, and it wasn't the best, you know, like, because it took out the mobility. Right? Like, you know, you're stuck on this one piece, and I think. I would think he would say the same thing. He's like, man, you're kind of married. Like, it's such a lift to get. Yeah. You're in a secluded, you know, grass is greener on the other side situation, but it also has its downsides Right. And like, this is why we talk about mobility versus back country. Right. Like, you're like, man, I'm gonna go deeper than everyone. But as a cost, as a big cost. Big cost, you know, and like, same with fly. Like, I'm gonna get flown in and drop off. Like, anyone who's hunted Alaska knows that. It's also a downside. I am stuck here. Yeah. Like, I am at the mercy. I no longer can make my own luck. Right. And so, like, I do, like, and I was very big in this for a long time of like, what is my asset? Right? Like, is it horses? Is it like an E bike? Or like whatever it is, you know, like some asset that you have, no one else has. But don't get married to it. Don't get stuck in this like, concept of like, I, I have this secret sauce because it, it has its downsides too. So the pendulum always be swinging.

Yeah. And it's like the sweet spot is when. And this is what we were just talking about where we're at in our hunting careers. The sweet spot is when you have a lot of assets you can employ.

Right, Right.

Because then it doesn't. You don't have a roadblock that you run into.

Totally, totally. You know, it's like, oh, shoot, you know, we got a jet boat, we got E bikes, we got, you know, they got all these things. And then, you know, it gets, it, dude, it gets into every conversation and. Which I don't. Which is tough because I think people look for the answer and like they're looking for the secret sauce, the secret recipe. And I like, I think the older you get, the more you realize there's no, there's no real secret recipe.

Yeah. Sometimes, I guess it sure doesn't seem like it though. I mean, even the, even the unit consistency, even the unit you get, like top end tag doesn't seem to be the secret sauce.

No. And as a guy who's guided governor's Tax, like you, you can say like, man, you're just as. You could just as easily kill a 350 bull on a general unit than you as you could some of these units that are like 20 points or whatever.

Like max points.

Yeah, right.

Commissioner's tag stuff. Yeah. But that's my favorite. I think that's my favorite part. I've got this friend of mine, actually, these two guys, I was just talking to them at the gym the other day. They're super into climbing and like, they worked in this like mountaineering climbing industry for a long time and Then they got into hunting and then they were like, oh, there's no top. You don't figure out.

Yeah.

Like, they were like stoked because they were like. And it's just taking over their life. They used to be all into the mountaineering stuff and they're just like, no, this is the. This is the addicting thing.

Yeah, that's cool.

He was just talking to me about they live in Wyoming. And they were like, you know that over the counter archery in, in Utah, we could go kill a bull in August. And they're like, that sounds really hard. That sounds fun. And I was like, dude, I mean, these guys who are just like looking for the hardest things to do. Like, I was like, yeah, do it, do it, man. That's where it seems like that's where the secret sauce is. It's just being like, how do we figure this thing out?

Yeah. Yeah. Is the goal to get easier tags or easier hunts? What is the goal? Like, what's your goal?

I was just thinking about that when I was looking at applying in Arizona because I was like, okay, do I swing for the fences and try to get an easy hunt because there's a random chance or do you go like, I want a better chance of drawing a tag. That's going to be a grind.

Yeah.

For me, I'm like, let's just go do a grind. Like while I have the tool. Toolbox. I have like, yeah, let's go do grind hunts. At some phase in life and especially when kids work into this and like, let's say they have sports and you gotta like shorten up the amount of time you have to give. Yeah. Maybe you start looking for easier stuff. Like stuff that takes less time.

Yeah. I think there's a lot of people that are looking for like, you know, I'll say unit 10, you know, I'm gonna go kill. I have a chance at a 400 inch bull. Like, it's still a hard hunt. Like, don't get me wrong, but like, man, I'm just like in a place where like I find these. Like, I was looking into Mexico last night actually. Last night actually. And I'm like trying. I'm not trying to like go to the heat. I've been to the Gila, right. Like, I'm not trying to drive the heart. Like, I'm not in the position in life where it's like, I only want to draw a hunt where it's like I show up and shoot an elk. It's just not interest me. No, I'm more interested in like, where is this like 30 day grind for a 350 bull? Like that just seems interesting to me. 20 day grind for a. Yeah, like those are the type of ones I want.

Yeah, it's. It places where I think that's the win is when you find something where it's hard. And people don't think that there is that thing there that is a bigger win to me than if you roll into some place where everyone's doing it and you're just like, yeah, I'm not.

Gonna turn down the window. No, certainly.

Yeah, I'm not gonna over here and be like, I'm not gonna go to. Yeah.

And some of those sounds like still it's and not. Or like, you know, like the Wanah for example, or Winaha, however you say it, you know, like it. It's as hard as you want it to be. And so like it is a 20 point tag that is like as hard as you want it to be. Definitely not easy, but like, you know.

Yeah, but that's also never gonna get it. Yeah, that's been my favorite part about guiding these like forbidden fruit tags is like, they're not different. I mean, yeah, people whole. Put them on a pedestal is like, you're gonna go out there and have this like magical experience. Like it's gonna, you know, these like this spiritual freaking. And I'm like, oh, it's just hunting.

I guarantee more magical hunts by number and you know, by percentage. Happen on like 5.5 point draws. Yeah, you know, it's like, man, that was such an epic experience. Yeah, it seems to be like the sweet spot.

My favorite hunt so far, like, just for all things considered, was in Oregon with my dad and my brother. And we saw bulls every day. We saw actually better quality than I thought. And I freaking missed a long shot. Like, it was hard to get them killed. But we were just, we were having a blast, man. And it was like a three point time. And we didn't see that. I mean, we saw people where people were like, duh. But like we were able to get away from folks.

And that's the thing I like about this, I'll call them garbage hunts. That there's a slipper slope because I said not to do garbage hunts. But like, I, you know, not very, very, very, very low numbers, very potential for very big bulls. Like, that's the hunts I like. Because you don't see anybody else. Yeah, you're like, there's nobody on those hunts. Right. Like, and if you do like, you just like, you know, that guy's a killer. Yeah.

You're like, oh, this guy. Yeah, that's exactly right. The guys that we ran into had seen the bulls that we'd seen, and they're like, we're looking for a little bigger. And I'm like, all right, we're not.

Yeah, dude, that's awesome.

Yeah, but. And we were just. I was talking about this with a friend of mine, the grandpa hunter. He was like, it's a limited quota tag for residents that they drew for his grandpa. And he's like, you saw whole families of residents out there hunting because it was a limited entry tag.

Well, that's hard. Yeah. That's the problem with like, you know, unit 10 or something nine or in Arizona. It's like, yeah, every tag has 30 other friends, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Different.

Different type of hunt.

People say that about the Utah hunts big time. They're like, oh, these Utah hunts that take 30 years to draw. There's. They're busy as anything.

Yeah. Which is funny because Travis and I just did a podcast recently about his Utah late tag. And he's like, I never saw another. He's like, I saw one other group and it was like a cr. Like in the spotting scope. Saw them. He's like, oh, there's humans. You know, it's like.

But that's also. That's where the new. The opportunities and stuff create voids. Right, Right. Like, I don't know how many of my friends want to come grind it out in December while I chase bulls with freaking bow. Like, they're gonna be that gung ho if it's October, first week of October.

Dude, that's. That's food for thought too, though. Like, you know, like, it's hard to get. You know, everyone wants to sign up for the scream Fest. And you know, you got a good tag in September, everyone's going have a tag in Arizona. In Arizona, Utah, any of these late, late archery hunts. Yeah. Your buddies aren't going on a late archery hunt in Arizona.

No.

You is by yourself.

That's right. Yeah. It's during the deer rut. Like, yeah, what are you doing down there? But that's also where, like the four season Colorado stuff is really interesting to me. Cuz no one, like, I don't hear anybody saying, like, yeah, no one is over here. Like, ah, the four season elk tags are so good. And I keep going, like, I don't think hunting it right.

Fifth season Colorado.

Stop it. There's only one unit lift that.

Yeah. Anyway.

No, that's good, though. And I hope. Yeah. I think that when we end up talking these circles, like people will be like, wait, so what do I do? Yeah, let's go back to like find out what you want. Find out if it's the terrain you want and then make sure you can draw my like.

Or one liner would be never hold any metric too high. Like find the blend right again. Find what you want and what kind of hunter you want to be and then develop a long term strategy that's going to get you more at best. That's kind of like unless, unless you're like me or just want this, you know, like big bowls or something like that. Yeah, I, I would say develop the skill, focus on the skill. Find places you can try to look between the, the cracks to find the units that you can actually get at bats at and focus on just like focus that for 10 years.

Yeah.

And you're going to kill some good wolves.

Yeah. Anybody who's got like planning on a long term strategy right now to like. I just, I feel for him. I don't want, I don't want to be the guy packing around 15 points in Wyoming thinking that's going to give me something special. Or Montana or Colorado. Yeah, yeah.

But like I'm like, you know, maybe I'm special because I'm like in a place where like the next few years I get a bunch of points to burn. Points. No points of burn. Like maybe I'm hopeful that like, you know, be able to do it.

But look at your resume.

Yeah. I mean there's a lot of years of putting in those. But I'm also, Yeah.

I don't know, all along the way you've been hunting like 1 and 0 point units or general units.

Right, right, right, right. But I would say even if I had started today with zero points, I could elk hunt every single year.

That's right.

If.

Well, that's right. No, you can.

Yeah. Roughly speaking, I would just move to the state I wanted to like I did. But like that's another whole other topic.

But yeah, but I was just. There was a post that was ragging on Casey Brooks and the big bull and then it was some dude that looked like he had never left his computer chair for a long time talking about how all these influencers have ruined it. There's no tags. You can get anymore. Across the west, they did away with the Colorado archery. And I was like, you weren't doing Colorado archery.

Right.

But I commented on it just because I was wanting to be a turd and I was like states you can still hunt over the counter. Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Utah. Yeah, like you just go pick up a tag and go. Yeah, like there's not a. Yeah, there's not a reason to. Now they're hard. They're going to be a gong show and it's going to like make you work your face off.

But also the other, the only people commenting, last thing I'll say, like everyone's kind of beat this dead horse already. The only people commenting on the Casey Brooks thing don't know who Casey Brooks was before this.

That's right.

No one who knew who Casey Brooks was, which. No, not very many people knew who he was.

No.

So if you didn't know who he was before this, like, I would just suggest you not formulate a thought. Dude's like, dude's the guy. Greatest outcome like there is. Yeah, I don't, no, I don't think that's debate. It'd be super unfortunate. I don't know. I don't know. Circumstances this I don't even like to me, I don't generally judge it. Like I hope his legacy doesn't go down on this thing of like.

Well, I don't think there was anything illegal.

Even if it wasn't like, I don't know, there was nothing illegal. I think it's just reputation wise. Like you like he gets known as the guy who you know, shot a yard bowl. I don't, I don't know what the scenario was. I would have shot it.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

I just also know that like no other hunter has like put in, you know, know there's put in effort put in the resume. Like when you have that resume that he has like it just like, yeah, yeah, he.

What was it? It was his 86 bull. And I'm like, okay, remove one of that one bull.

He's still like number of 400 inch bulls massive. You know that, you know that. I appreciate, I appreciates about Casey Brooks is this is a year or two ago, a couple years ago he shot a dink like in Nevada.

Oh hell yeah.

And I was like, it made me like, it was like, dude, I don't, I don't even think he, he's. But he's also not a guy that's just like ready to stack as many as he can, you know, I mean but he also like it was like a nevad. I, I don't, don't quote me where it was, but it was like a pretty small six and for a guy that's killed like 10 or 12400 inch bulls. I was like, I had mad respect that he was like posting this bull that was like not that big, you know, like by all standards, he didn't need to shoot.

Yeah.

And I was just like, huh, that's cool. Like, you know, like a lot of respect for that guy.

Well, it goes back to. And we'll tease this up. So this means we have to do it, Cody.

Okay.

But you called me yesterday. You're like, let's do some fun debates about different things in the hunting industry or whatever. I think we're gonna do one about pickups and yeah, best.

Best camping set or like best truck setup.

Best truck setup. And we're gonna do this, but because we're gonna have fun with it, Right? When the frick did we lose the fact that like all this stuff is fun, man? That's like, this is what you got into it for.

Yeah, yeah. This is the conversations we've always had. I don't want to debate serious topics or like which broadhead or any heads up. Yeah, I want to debate the stupid stuff. You know. Another one is if you know what, he has ideas, hit me up. You know, we could debate scent killer.

Oh, yes. I'm on the hex train for sure.

Yeah. All right, that's it. We're. We're going downhill.

All right.

Yeah, that's the episode. If somebody's got stuff we should debate or whatever, fun stuff, interesting topics, we're gonna do more. Did I tell you we got a new podcast studio?

No.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

All right. We'll have to do some of those in there.

Yeah. So, new podcast studio. We'll talk about that after the show. But yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, cheers, buddy.

Cheers.

Alrighty, guys, thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100 free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resour source for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.