From the Archives: Tracking Elk and Facing Grizzlies with Todd Orr

Alrighty, guys, welcome to the Oak Hunt podcast. Real quick, before we get into this episode, the reason I'm putting up an archive episode was actually because last episode Jaden and I were on, we were talking about stuff and we talked about this epic podcast that I did back in 2018 with Todd Orr. He was attacked by a grizzly. Pretty epic story there, but also just this whole concept of tracking elk. And you know, Todd hunts with a pistol, which is super cool. And we talked about this in this epis. So Jaden and I, and then I, I don't know, a half dozen of you or so have emailed me about, hey, where's this episode? Well, turns out this episode is not on the Elkon channel. It was on the rich outdoors, so we're gonna put it on here for sure. But it was also, it was so old you could only get it on the website. So we're bringing it back out of the archive. So if you heard it on the Jaiden podcast and you were looking for it, couldn't find it. This is why. So, yeah, hope you guys enjoy this episode with Todd Orr. Super badass dude. Survived a double grizzly attack. He kills elk by tracking him down in the snow with his pistol, which is totally cool. But yeah, hope you guys enjoyed this episode. And if you haven't yet, go leave us a review. It's almost season, I am getting ready to head out and so one last request from you guys, if you guys get any benefit or enjoyment or entertainment, education, whatever you get out of this podcast, you do me a favor, go leave a review and maybe share this podcast with your friend. Appreciate it. Love your support, guys. This podcast is really blown up this year and no surprise because elk hunting is the best. All right, good luck this season guys and hopefully get it done. If you do DM me, send me some pictures of you guys success photos. Always love getting those. So, yeah, lots of, lots of call to actions. But go leave a review and send me some pictures when you kill stuff. Thanks, guys. Quick shout out to the show sponsors for the Elk Hunt podcast. Gotta thank Onyx Hunt for being a huge supporter of the podcast. If you're not an elite member yet, be sure to check that out. Absolutely mandatory this time of year to have your onyx up and running. Shout out to my friends over at Tricer. Drew is an amazing dude and an inventor and everything. Like, the guys built some really, really cool products and they are absolutely crushing it. So if you guys need are in the market for a new tripod, definitely check Tricer I love what they do, love what they make, and the new bipod is amazing. If you need a new bipod, it is pretty sweet setup. I'm going to be using it this week. So, anyway, thanks to those guys and to Stone Glacier. If you guys aren't in the market or are in the market for a new pack, check out Stone Glacier. Man, I actually have some exciting news or a video that's going to be coming out about lightweight backpacking and doing some pack weight stuff. So, yeah, if you want a lightweight setup, check out Stone Glacier. Works great for packing out oak. I've packed out a lot of elk with it and they also make a full line of gear as well. So check out Stone Glacier. Those guys are awesome. Anyway, huge supporter of the podcast to all those brands. If you guys like the show, go support the brands that support the show. All right, on to the episode.

I turn and there she is. She's 10ft behind me, coming wide open. And I just like saw her out of the corner of my eye and boom. And I got knocked down.

Alrighty. Welcome to podcast, dad. How are we doing?

Thanks, Cody. Appreciate it. Doing great.

We've been trying to make this happen for a long time.

It's been a while. Yeah. It's just schedules are a little difficult sometimes and summers for me are crazy busy.

Yeah. And it's like leading up to season, it gets really hectic.

Yeah. And then I knew a couple weeks ago when both seasons started that that you wouldn't be around for a while probably, so. Yeah. Yeah.

So a lot of people don't know that you are an elk slayer, kind of under the radar and with a pistol of all.

With a pistol. I've been hunting with a pistol for like 30 years now. Yeah.

What. What inspired that? What started you to, hey, I want to shoot? No. With a pistol?

Well, I. I blew my shoulders out snowboarding years ago. And so I used to be a big bow hunter and just love the bow hunting. I got into a big snowboard accident, dislocated both my shoulders and couldn't pull the bow. And so I was like, I don't want to go back to a rifle again. You know, I want something more of a challenge. And a guy I was working with is like, hey, you ought to get into pistol hunting. I'm like, I never thought of that. So I kind of researched a little bit. I'm like, all right.44 Magnum will work. And I got a super, a Ruger Super Redhawk and a nine and a half inch barrel and put A scope on it, start shooting and just got addicted to pistol hunting. It's kind of like, you know, the whole Clint Eastwood thing, you know, got the big.

Yeah.

Big revolver and, you know, it's great.

Oh, that's so cool. I actually. So I have a 4570 pistol. And like, after kind of doing some research and seeing, you know, you killing elk, I was like, man, I kind of want to shoot an elk with a pistol and the 4570 pistol, like, I have it, so I kind of need to. I've actually I pig hunted with it in California and got a pig one time, man. It was a couple years ago actually. So, yeah, I just kind of had this desire to do it.

It's fun. I love it. Yeah.

Is it? So, man, there's so many questions. So many questions. So you originally were a bow hunter?

I started, you know, started hunting when I was 12 with my dad and just got addicted to the hunting. Well, moving out here in Montana when I was 7 years old and grew up in the Madison Valley at the base of the gravelly range at the fish hatchery. My dad is a fish hatchery manager. And so we were just outside on the right there at the base of the mountains, and we're hunting, hiking, fishing, dirt biking, bicycles, and just grew up in the outdoors.

Montana kid stuff.

Yeah, Montana kid. The first day in Montana, dad took me down to the Madison river and put a fly rod in my hand at seven years old. So, you know, just got addicted to all of the outdoor stuff right up front. And so, you know, dad's like, all right, let's go hunting. You know, and I'd follow him up to his elk camp up on the gravelies and with his buddies and just hang out. I'd just follow in dad's footprints and he'd teach me all about the elk hunting and the different things to look for and taught me how to bugle. And so I couldn't wait till I could go hunting myself. So, 12 years old and started rifle hunting and shot a 5x5 bull the opening day at 12 years old and shot a nice muley buck the second day of the season. So I thought, oh, this is great, and this is easy. You know, I filled my tags opening weekend, mastered this thing. Yeah, this is such a cute. Then I realized, okay, maybe it's not always that easy. There's a lot of luck there involved too. But anyway, so I rifle hunted for two years, and then dad's like, hey, you want to try to get into bow hunting? I'm like, sure. So I was 14 years old.

Oh, wow.

Got a bow and started bow hunting. And it was just addicting to be out there in the woods every, you know, every fall and with the elf bugling, the cows and calves talking, and I couldn't wait to get out of school and rush home and jump on my motorcycle, and I'd have my bow strapped on the bungee cord on the back of the motorcycle and run up on top of the mountain and start bow hunting until dark, like, every night after school and every weekend. And just got addicted to it and shot a couple. Couple nice bulls with a bow and then shoulder.

So how old were you when you. The snowboarding accident happened?

Would have been my early 20s or something like that. Yeah.

So then from there, it was kind of like a. Change gears.

Yeah, change gears. Got into this pistol hunting, and then it was like, you know, at first. First year or two, I carried the pistol and the rifle because I was like, oh, what happens if it's too far? I don't want to miss a monster bull or a big buck because I can't shoot far enough. And then after I shot a couple, then I'm like, all right, I can put the rifle away. And I haven't carried it since for really.

So all your big game, you do with your 44 mag?

Yeah. 28 bull elk. 28 public land with my pistol during rifle season? Yep. 27 of them with the 44 mag and one with the 10 mm.

No kidding? You've killed a bull at 10, 10 millimeter?

Yeah, my last bull, I killed the 10 mm.

No kidding.

Yeah, about 70 or 80 yards and just got him up out of his bed, and he stopped for just a second there and just nice long shot. And he ran about 100 yards and was down. So.

So essentially, you're. And you spend a lot of time scouting. You spend a lot of time doing the work, putting the work in for hunting season. When it comes to hunting with a pistol, what are the significant differences between that and rifle hunting the biggest?

Well, you're.

Where does it fall in the line between bow hunting, because it's almost close to bow hunting, but it's during rifle season. So, like, where does it fall to you between rifle hunting and bow hunting?

Well, it feels like bow hunting in a sense, because I'm usually getting closer. I'm in the trees, and I usually hunt later in the season in the snow. And so I'm. I'm in the heavy timber. Most of the bulls have pulled away from the cows and they're doing their own thing. So I'm in the heavy timber looking for tracks, following tracks. Then once I get on a big track, follow it and try to find out if it's a legal bull or a bull I want to shoot. And so it's a lot of sneaking in the jungle timber and trying to be really quiet and really glassing out ahead of me at everything that's going on and just trying to catch that glimpse of a movement or a color or shape that's not right and be like, stop and glass it. Be like, okay, there's some elk trying to move in. So it's similar to bow hunting in that sense, where I'm always usually in the trees 100 yards or less, trying to, you know, find a. A nice bull to get a shot on.

So my friend of mine, Mark Nicholson, if you know Mark.

I know the name, but yeah, yeah.

He lives just south of town. He. He. We were talking about on the podcast, we were talking about hunting in the timber and tracking bulls and things like that. And he was. He was like, yeah, this. This. This other. I don't know, the old timer or something. Anyway, someone told him, you know, hey, follow these tracks. And when the start. When the tracks start to do this weave, they'll start to.

That's when they're getting ready to bed down.

Getting ready to bed down.

Is that. Is there true to that? Yeah, there's a lot of things I look at when I'm elk hunting. So first off, when I'm out there in the snow and I'm just looking for track, fresh tracks. Okay. I find some tracks. Might be a lone track, or maybe it's two or three. And, you know, looking at dew claws, how much the dew claws are sinking into the snow, looking at the size of the track and, okay, this is likely a couple bulls. And then I'll start following it for a ways. And within. Usually in the timber, within 100 yards, depending on how they move between the trees, I can tell if it's a bigger bull or if it's a young ram.

Oh, really?

Because you get trees that are, you know, three feet apart, and it just goes right through it. And it's tracks right next to the tree. You're like, okay, it doesn't have any horns sticking out there. It would have whacked that tree or knocked some branches. And so when you start seeing that bull, it's like he's on the trail, and all of a sudden he goes above the trail and back on because it's Kind of narrow. And you see him do that two or three times, you're like, all right, I might have a mature bull here. And so then I just, you know, so I can kind of rul those tracks just by seeing how they move. And, you know, until I find a nice, good sized track that's starting to weave around the trees. And like, okay, now I got a bowl.

So is that your biggest indicator for like a good bowl is. Is looking for how they.

That's how I do it. Yeah.

It's just not necessarily the size of the track because a lot of times you can't tell.

You can't tell. I mean, you could have a really big, you know, cow that have a pretty big track too, or. But yeah, so I kind of go a little combination of everything. You know, the size of the track, you know, the. The dew claws. The more weight, the more those claws are gonna be pushed down into the. Into the snow deeper. And then, you know, the stride as well when they're walking. But also mostly going around the trees is what I'm looking for. If I see that regularly moving around these narrow trees, I'm like, all right, this bull's got a rack big enough that he's not. Doesn't want to go through there if he doesn't have to. So.

So are you, like, choosing areas? Montana. It seems weird because, I mean, I grew up western Oregon. You have to hunt in the brush and when. It's funny because guys will talk here like hunting the timber, and I've. We've grown up doing that to where you. You're never gonna see a bull in the open, so you just hunt the timber until you find him. Similarly, you could hunt, but it's usually in mud, not snow. And so a lot. There's a lot of similarities to it, like growing up where we hunted the brush and. And just track bulls down and kill them. It seems like in Montana, though, there's so much open ground that guys would just spot and stalk. Is it. Is that ground just get too hunted or what's your. What's your draw to hunting bulls that you can't see?

Well, I, you know, I always start. Try to get up somewhere by daylight and get up back where I think the elk are going to be, you know, three, four miles back in the backcountry at daylight, and you're going to catch those elk out in the open. Usually they're feeding all night and some opening and they start to move back into the trees. So I'm starting up there on the Edge of those trees and those meadows. And I'm, you know, looking for those groups. Elk or maybe it's a group of three or four bulls. And try to catch them out in the open, and I'm still on the edge of the timber and try to figure where they're going to come into the timber while they're still moving.

So best case scenario, you're still trying to spot and stock.

I'm still.

You just inevitably, it works out to a tracking.

J. Tracking, Right. Exactly. Yeah. So that's how I'm first seeing them. And usually what happens is you kind of get an idea they're coming out of the opening into the trees right at daylight. And then I'm like, okay, now I need to, you know, get ahead of them somehow figure out which way the wind's blowing. Maybe I got to get above them or below them, however the situation is with the wind, and try to move in and try to come in in front of them as they're feeding by me. Because trying to get behind them, a lot of times, you'll never catch them.

Yeah.

Trying to catch up, you know, so trying to do that. Head up 300 yards, try to scoot faster along the top, and then come back down and ease your way back in just a step at a time, glassing below you and be like, oh, there's a movement. I see something. And then trying to line that up and trying to get a shot. And, you know, like any situation, like, nine out of ten times, it doesn't work.

Yeah.

You step on a branch, or the wind switches, or a squirrel chatters, or there's a mule deer watching you that runs right through the middle of them or something.

Yeah.

But then, you know, you just stick to it, and you're like, all right, they took off running. They're going to run 3, 400 yards, and they're gonna stop and see if I'm coming, or they're gonna keep moving around the hill. And so I'm like, all right, I got, like, 15 minutes. Just hoof it. And I had to clear up, move across some country again, then start working my way back down, Try to guess about where I think they're. They slowed down or they stopped, or they're gonna bed and just try to work in on them.

And there's such a tracking.

Yeah, there is. There is. Every time you're out there, you learn something new as well.

And I've often said that for guys that are new hunters, spend time tracking animals, you'll learn so much about animal behavior. When you're following them.

Right.

You know, just growing up hunting blacktails late season, you'd follow deer and they do the random things. You just learn so much about behavior, where they're going, what they're doing, you know, what they're thinking. And it's just so cool to follow tracks.

It is, yeah.

There's definitely an art form too. And I think you can learn a lot about elk and elk in that time. I mean, you talk about late season bulls have pulled off like, man, they just do. They're very different.

They are.

You know, a lot of guys are, oh, feed the bed, feed to bed. But man, those elk can just wander aimlessly for no reason, you know, what would appear to be no reason.

Yeah, you know. Yeah. You never know where you're going to find them, what they're going to be doing. Every time you kind of let your guard down a little bit is where you always run into one bedded right there. Yeah. In front of you. And see, the more you do it, the more you start to learn. Okay, they're going to look for this little flat bench on this ridge where they can look out over here, or they're looking for this little jungle timber where they feel safe, you know, what.

Do you think that like when you, I mean, you're done this for obviously successfully for a lot of years, what do you look for in like, terrain, you know, like so many people will sit there and say north slope, you know, or south slope, whatever it may be. But that's, it's so basic. Is there, is there more to it? Like what terrain features to you are. Man, this, this is what, what holds.

I guess I have to try to think of like certain places that I've run into elk a lot. And it's usually it's a bench, you know, it's some little flat bench. They'll be out on a steep hillside fe in the open grass at night, maybe like on a south facing slope. And they start moving up the hill and they'll find a stretch of timber that's flatter, that's kind of a bench area. It's a little bit thicker. And they'll kind of spend a couple hours in the morning feeding through that. And then they'll just look for a good spot behind a tree that's kind of a flat spot to bed down. Or it varies so much because I jumped them in places where I never expected to jump them too, you know. So it does vary a lot, but usually I'm looking for little flat benches at the Maybe at the top of a good meadow where they'd been feeding at night. And you know, especially like late in the season, they're out on that open, open area in the snow, you know, digging around and then they end up in the jungle timber up on top or they can look out over it or just feel safe above every everybody else and away from the people. And yeah, I always say that, you know, you're going to find the elk are where you find them.

It's so true.

You can't really, you know, sometimes you can throw guests out there and get pretty close. I feel like I've. A lot of times I. I'm like, okay, if I was that elk, I would cruise around here. And I'm kind of thinking in my head where he's gonna go. And it's surprising how many times it works out. And it's like, yeah, I got that figured out. But. But then sometimes it totally throws you off and you're like, well, if they were there, why are they not here? Because this is the perfect place.

And sometimes you find those areas that are just perfect elky, they're just so. This has gotta be the first spot. There's nothing there. And I'll spend, I'm very guilty of spending too much time looking for an elk and like, I'll have this, this side of the hill. I'm like, man, this is just perfect. It' I'll spend like three days there, never see an elk. And I should have left the first day after I didn't see anything. You know, it's like I'm trying to.

Yeah, then a whole bunch moved in too. So you just never know. It's. That's what it's about, hunting, you know, it's just you got to get out there and put your time in and hopefully by the end of the season.

And how many miles a year, I guess, do you usually put anything?

I don't know, about a year. But I, you know, my average day is anywhere depending on how many elk I'm in, so how slow I'm moving or if I'm just covering country, anywhere from 10 to up to 20 miles a day, you know, probably averaging 10 to 15 regularly. Probably 15, because I'm usually, you know, five, four or five miles in somewhere, you know, and then hunting all day, you know. So you maybe put on 5 to 10 miles during the day, depending on how much your country you're covering and then a five mile hike back out. So, you know, 15 miles.

You ever just camp in there?

I rarely Ever do. I just, you know, especially late in the season, I'm usually hunting in the. In the snow just because my. My job with the forest Service, we're so busy between, like, you know, we got five months when you don't have snow on the ground, and we're trying to do all the field work. So I'm really busy doing trails engineering up until the snow flies about now. So then. Or even into October, you know, into hunting season sometimes. So I rarely have a lot of time during the first part of the, like, bow season or the first part of rifle season to get out there. So it's usually okay. It's the last two, three weeks of. Of November, and I'm like, I got some tracking snow. I like the tracking snow. And I know if I'm near something or getting close, you know, and that's when I'm usually spending my time. So I've usually just don't camp back in there. I'll just go in for the day, spend all day hiking around, hike back out, and get my three or four hours of sleep that I need every night, go back and do it again.

It's crazy. I hear a lot of guys in Montana say, like, the third big storm is when elk start moving. Is there any truth to, like, a certain number of storms or a certain weather?

I guess I've never tracked it that way. You know, I see. Sometimes I see the first snow. You see a bunch of elk are down in the private land in the hay fields, and you'll get a couple small bulls or maybe, you know, spikes and a couple rag horns down there with, you know, a couple hundred head of cows. But, yeah, you know, 90% of those bulls I find just, you know, stay back in the timber. And seems like the farther back you go and away from the people, the more you see. But then every once in a while, you find them just 50ft from the trailhead, too, because there wasn't anybody there, and they were moving across or moving down the ridge, stayed there. So you just never know. But I usually try to head back in farther, and it used to be, you know, I'd go back in an hour before daylight and, you know, and try to be at the top of the mountain five miles in, right when, you know, the sun came up. So I'd have the best chance and the most time to hunt. But now I'm a little bit more nervous after my bear situation.

Yeah, we got to get into that, too.

Yeah, we get it eventually, but. Yeah, so I kind of do a little Different. I like to hike in the lights. At least I see something coming if it's going to happen again, you know, but yeah, yes, that's changed a little bit.

Hopefully my wife doesn't listen to this podcast. I actually got the question today because I did a podcast and, and I was talking about hiking in two hours before daylight, and someone asked me, like, man, do you hike in a grizzly country in the dark? And I do. You know, it's like, I know it's not a good idea, right? But it's hard not to.

You know, it's all grizzly country now. So it's like anywhere you go, if you want to get in there, you know, and be five miles in at daylight, you got to do it in the dark. And. Yeah, and I used to do it. Never thought about it. You know, I always had my bear spray or something with me and I was like, yeah, you know, you could happen, but it's rare and it's, you know, if I see them, they'll run the other way like most of them always do. And.

Okay, we got to get into. You got to tell your story. For those who don't know, let's go back. It was about a year. Was it last year?

Two years ago now? Two years ago, October 1, 2016.

I remember I had just come out of the wood woods in Montana and that had happened and that was, you know, I'd had a couple, actually a couple grizzly run ins that year. And it was like, man, that was close. And then I think I got out the day and I saw, you know, your video. I was like, oh, man, like, maybe I need to think about this a little bit more. So back up. What I mean, obviously spent a lot of time in the woods. You. Your career's kind of being in the woods.

Yeah, I've spent my life in. In the backcountry and bear country. And I see probably, you know, a dozen bears every year. You know, a couple grizzlies and a number of black bears. And, you know, a couple of them might be, you know, 100ft or something. And they see and they usually run the other direction or you just kind of work around, they move off. And this was October 1st, two years ago, and I finally had a, you know, day off of work. It was a Saturday morning and it was about two weeks before the general hunting season. And I thought I'd get up and just scout around for some elk and kind of get an idea if there was some elk in an area before I was gonna get out for the opener. And so I got to the trailhead at dark. Like I was saying, I wanted to get far back in as I can. And I got to the trailhead, you know, an hour before dark and got my pack on and I grabbed my, my 10mm that I hunted, I shot my last elk with. And it's got a scope on it and so it's for hunting. You know, it's not really a self protection gun, but I really wasn't concerned. Had my bear spray, had my pistol. And it was wolf season was open. So I'm like, well, if I get a chance at a wolf, I'll take a wolf with it. And I headed back up there in the dark, had a flashlight and you know, every 30 seconds or so I'm like, hey, bear. Coming up the trail. Just to make sure I didn't jump one in the dark, but really wasn't worried about it.

Yeah.

And got up there right at daylight, stepped out into this little meadow and about a 80 or 100 yards on the other end of this, this opening, here's this sow and two cubs. Grizz just steps out and we kind of see each other at the same time. And she just immediately turns and the three of them just run up the trail and boom, disappear. Disappear into the trees over the ridge. And I'm like, all right, that's a, that's a good bear. She doesn't like people. She ran the other way. She's smart. That's okay. I'll give her a minute and I'll head up the trail the other direction. I'll never see her again, you know, Wasn't concerned at all. And so I waited about a minute and didn't see her. So I just headed on up the trail. I'm gonna head to the opposite direction. And I took a few steps and I heard a crunch of a branch or some noise, you know, got my attention. And I turned and looked over my left shoulder and she had seen, dropped the cubs. It had circled around the ridge and came behind me over my left shoulder and probably 35, 40 yards off this ridge and she's in a full charge, coming straight downhill, no time. And yeah, it was just like, boom, she's coming. I saw her. I just instinctively pulled my bear spray, which was hanging right on my chest here, pulled my bear spray, pulled the safety out. Kind of just thinking it's going to be a bluff charge. But just in case you got it ready, pulled that out, look back up and here she's at 30ft still coming at 40 miles an hour. You know, she covered that in two seconds at that speed. And I just had the bear spray right there and just started spraying and stepping backwards. And just her momentum coming down that hill that fast just carried her right through it. And whether she took a breath at that instant or whatever, I mean, a split second, she was through the cloud, and there I am. So she just nails me, knocks me down, and I'm down on my face with my arms behind the back of my neck, protecting my neck, and she bites me four or five times in my right arm. And then she starts making this weird, like, coughing sound from the bear spray. And boom, she's gone. Just that quick. It's over. And so the bear spray worked. It just took a second because just her. Just a rare situation with the way she was coming. She didn't bluff charge. She didn't hesitate. She just blew right through it. But now she feel like you got.

Hit by Ray Lewis, just.

Yeah, exactly. It was crazy. I mean, you know, so fast. It happened so fast, and just you didn't even have time to really think. Luckily, I've practiced with. With the bear spray before because I'm in the woods all the time with bear spray, and I've practiced pulling it and pulling the safety, and I've practiced shooting expired ones. And I knew. Yeah, I knew what it felt like. I knew what to do. And it just. It was instinctive. And it. And that's a good thing is it happened so quick. If I had to think about it, I would have been too late.

Yeah.

But so she coughed a couple times and took off and was gone. And I just, like, wow. Picked myself up thinking that was crazy. I just got attacked by a grizzly bear. I just got my arm chewed up and. But I'm alive, you know, wow. Okay. I guess I'm looking at it going, I got to get down the road to the hospital and get some stitches in my arm. And so I picked myself up and started down the trail.

Yeah, adrenaline probably just through the roof.

Yeah, adrenaline is just. It happened so fast. I think it was. I mean, adrenaline is obviously running, but the whole thing lasted like three seconds. You know, that first attack, it was like all sudden. It's done. I'm just like, wow. I didn't even really have time to think about what happened, you know, and it's over. So I'm heading down the trail, not.

Thinking the spare, like, just assuming everything's done.

It's done. You know, I spare sprayed her, she ran off, and now I'M out of here. I'm going the opposite direction. You know, it's like, wow. Okay.

Bear spray still in your hand? Is it empty?

I had it. My head dropped it when I got knocked down. But no, I still had a half a can of bear spray. And you know, it was one of the smaller ones, but it was still, you know, I just had like two seconds of spraying and then actually knocked it out of my hands, you know, crazy. So I headed down the trail and it was probably five minutes down the trail a few hundred yards. And the trail comes right down along the creek where you got to cross the creek. And so it's pretty noisy from the stream right there. And all of a sudden I, you know, I'm kind of looking around, a little bit nervous obviously, you know, but, you know, still thinking I'm pretty safe. And so all of a sudden I hear a noise and turn. And I think she had gone over the ridge, got her cubs. And instead of crossing this big canyon that was there, it's a pretty steep canyon. She had really small cubs of the year. So I think she just turned and came down the ridge because that was kind of an open, easy route to come down. And so she came down the ridge and that ridge comes angles right back to the creek where the trail was. And I think it's just. I don't think she followed me. I don't know for sure, but I think she just came down the ridge. Randomly sees me below her again. Now we're just coming together and there's.

That guy that sprayed me.

There he is. I'm gonna. I'm recovered a little bit now. She's gonna get me good. So I turn, there she is, she's 10ft behind me, coming wide open. And I mean, I just like saw her out of the corner of my eye and boom. And I got knocked down and I had bear spray in my hand and I didn't even have time to do anything. Knocked me down. This time she's got me pinned to the ground. The first bite was in my left arm. And I heard the crunch of the bone just like. And she ripped all these tendons out and just shredded my left arm. And that initial, you know, had my arm up behind the back of my head. And that initial bite and that sound and that pain just made me pull my arm and I kind of winced and went ah. And made a noise. And that movement noise just triggered like this frenzy. And she grabbed me, picked me up, and she's like shaking me, slammed me down, bit my right arm like 25 times, bit me in the side, bit me in the shoulder claw at one point, raked my head, you know, ripped my scalp open and had blood in my eyes. And she said, I'm just a rag doll. And then she, you know, picked me up and shake me and my back's ripped off, you know, everything. It's just like that will to survive. Like, I knew that I had. There's nothing I could do. I couldn't fight back, you know, she's just going to tear me apart. So I knew that if she had cubs somewhere, if I could just play dead and not move, she was going to go back and check on her cubs. I'm like, I just got to ride it out for 20 seconds or 30 seconds or whatever it is until she leaves. And so I'm just using every bit of strength I can to like keep down in that face down position. My arms behind my head, my arms kind of protecting the sides of my face and my body.

She's trying to roll you over.

She like flit just kind of like slung me back and forth to where I got rolled over a couple times. And immediately I would just turn and go right back to face down again in a ball. And I didn't want to get stuck on my back, you know, her pinning me on my back and just chewing my face or my neck or my chest or stomach or whatever. So I just used every bit of strength I had and every. All my focus to survive and just stay face down. And at one point, she bit me in the side and that kind of turned me. And I remember seeing her head, like just inches from my face, right here out of my right eye. I'm just like, oh, there she is, looking right and looking into her eye, you know, and just like, oh, no, just pull it back in and then let's see it. She had me. Well, she. After she ripped my scalp open and my eyes are filled with blood and I can't see or do anything. I'm just helpless, really. Just trying not to move, trying to almost like holding my breath, trying not to make any movement. And then it's just all sudden, she stops. And that was probably the weirdest, the eeriest part of the whole thing. She's standing on my lower back. Her claws are like stuck in my back. I have like, scars in my lower back. Her claws are stuck there. She got me pinned to the ground and she's sniffing the back of my neck and I can just feel that her breath, like on my hands and on the back of my neck and my head. And she'd sniff a little bit and then she'd bite. And then she'd sniff and then she'd bite. I think she's just testing to see if I was, you know, alive or dead or incapacitated or whatever it was. And so I'm just trying not to move, you know, immediately. It blocked. After the first bite, I'd blocked out all the pain, just that will to survive. I don't remember any pain. I remember, like, how bad she smelled and the sound of her teeth crunching into my muscles. But I can't associate any pain with it because your adrenaline and just. You're just like. You know that if you make a noise or flinch, she's going to keep chewing. So just, you know, I'm just hearing this crunching and this breathing on the back of my neck and just. And at that point she was kind of nipping like a dog bite. It wasn't really puncturing anymore. It was kind of testing to see if I was dead. So I had all of these, like, couple days later, all these strange, like, teeth bruise marks and claw marks and everything all over my body where she hadn't punctured, but just kind of like checking to see if I was incapacitated. And so that went on for like a minute of just her standing there and kind of nipping and sniffing. And then she just stopped. And it was like 30 seconds of like, dead silence. And I can feel her weight. I'm just squashed into the ground. My chest is smashed into the dirt. My face is in the dirt. And I'm trying to take a breath without, like, making a movement or a sound. I can barely breathe. And. And finally she just steps off and disappears. And so I just like, okay. I don't know if she's.

How long before you decide to move?

It was like 20 seconds probably. I didn't move because I didn't know if she was 10ft away. I couldn't hear anything. I'm like, is she just watching me? And as soon as I move, I'm gonna get attacked again. So I just hold it for like 20 or 30 seconds. And I get to thinking it's like, okay if she is gone. And then she checks on the cubs and decides to come back and I'm still there. She's gonna chew me some more. So I'm like, I gotta get out of here. I gotta protect myself, myself. So I really slowly just pulled one hand down from behind the back of my neck and really slowly reached under My chest where I had my 10 mm, right here in my. In a chest holster, and reach for that, and it's like, wasn't there. And I remember thinking to myself, it's like, okay, take it. You know, just relax. Reach for it again. You're just. You know, you're just freaked out. Your pistol's there. So I reached again for it, and it wasn't there. You still can't see, and I'm still kind of hunkered down, trying with my eyes closed, just trying not to move. This is all really slow, slow motion. Just trying to get the pistol out with. In case she's still there. At least I got a pistol, you know? And I realized the pistol had been ripped off during the attack, and it was gone.

And so what goes through your head at that point?

Pardon?

What goes through your head at that point?

Oh, just like, I'm helpless. I got a broken arm. I'm chewed up. I got no pistol. I don't know where my bear sprays at now, and I don't know what. I don't know where she is. I can't see. I'm just. Yeah, it was pretty freaky. And so I'm like, okay, I got to see where she's at. So I reached up really slowly still. Wipe the blood from my eye and look to the right. And I wiped the blood from my other eye, looked to the left. I didn't see her anywhere. And I saw my pistol laying there about 10ft away. So I just dove for the pistol and pulled it out of the holster. She ripped the whole holster and everything off, and it was like a chest. It was like a chest holster and just had ripped the strap, busted the straps, and the whole thing's lying over there.

So you did get hit by Ray Lewis Twice.

Exactly. So I pulled that out and hammered back, and I'm, like, ready, you know? And then she's nowhere around, so I'm like, all right, got to get out of here now before she comes back. So I. Yeah, my left arm is completely worthless, and my hands all crimped up and got tendons sticking out of my arm. And so all I could do with that arm was just tuck my pistol in my armpit right here and just held it to my side so I can get to it really easily. And I picked up the bear spray in this hand, took off down the trail.

At this point, are you going to bear spray or gun?

I'm sure she was coming back. I'd be shooting the gun, but God, yeah. But I had Them both, just in case. You never know. I guess I'm assuming. I didn't even know if I could shoot the pistol. And my right arms chewed up pretty bad, too. But the adrenaline's still going, so I'm good to go. So I'm heading down the trail and just trying to get distance between her and I. And I got down there, you know, another 10 minutes, maybe a half mile down the trail. And at that point, I felt pretty safe. It's like, okay, she's not coming after me. She's way back up there. So I stopped, and I'm looking at my, you know, blood dripping off my elbows and soaking through my shirt into my pants and trying to see if I need, like. Like some bandaging or tourniquet or something, you know, am I going to bleed to death? I got an out. You know, am I going to make.

It to the truck?

Yeah. And it was all, you know, puncture wounds mostly, and no, like, you know, arteries severed or anything. So I'm like, okay, I'm bleeding, but I'm not bleeding that bad. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm gonna make it. I don't need any first aid yet. So I cruised on down for, like, another mile, and I stopped again and checked one more time just to make sure. Yeah. And I'm starting to settle down, and my mind's getting. Coming back in. I'm thinking about it all, and at that point, I was like, geez, you know, I still got three miles in bear country. I could run into another bear, you know, so I'm still heads up with everything, and I'm a walking bait pile right now. Exactly. So I finally, you know, took me like, 45 minutes or so to hike the three miles down to the truck. And I get to the parking lot. There's one other vehicle there. And this is, you know, bow season on a Saturday morning. So I'm thinking, you know, there could be other people coming in here for the weekend to go hunting or camping up there. And I think I need to leave a note on the bulletin board that just, you know, it says, hey, you know, aggressive grizzly in the area. You know, something like that, Just to warn people. And so I'm trying to get in my truck, and, you know, that my left arm's useless. My right one's really starting to cramp up from all these puncture wounds. And I'm. I can barely get the truck door open. And I'm trying to crawl up in there and trying to find, like, some sticky notes in a pen. Write a note to stick on a bulletin board. And I'm like, I'm just dripping blood everywhere. I'm like, this is.

Just write it in blood on the board.

Like, this isn't gonna work. So I'm like, okay, give that up and I'll just let fishing game know. And I get, you know, cell service. You get to town.

Yeah.

And so I'm getting ready to jump in the truck. I'm like, better take a quick photo or two and a quick video of this to show my buddies how crazy of a weekend I had before they cleaned me up at the hospital. And I felt at that point, I felt, you know, I'm at the truck, I'm 100% safe. I know I'm not gonna bleed to death. You know, everybody's always making these comments, oh, you idiots. Taking a photo instead of getting himself to the hospital. It's like, I still got like 40 minutes to the hospital. 30 seconds isn't going to matter. You know, it's like I can look at myself and know I'm not going to die. You know, it's not that dire of a situation. So I did a quick, you know, 20 second video, took a couple photos of my wounds and said, all right, let's get to the hospital. So I headed on down the road and had, you know, 15 minutes of dirt road down through some ranches, and there was a rancher over there getting in his mailbox, getting, you know, getting the mail out. And so I stopped and kind of got his attention. I couldn't hardly get my window down and couldn't lift my arm up to wave to him. And he finally saw me and came over and saw the blood all over my face. And he's like, oh, my God. I'm like, yeah, I just got attacked by a bear and grizzly bear. And I'm like, I'm heading to the hospital. Can you call the hospital and just, you know, let him know I'm coming so I don't walk in, like, looking like a zombie here, you know, into the middle and surprise everybody. And he's like, yeah, no problem. He's like, do you need a ride? And I'm like, no, I'm already bleeding in my truck. I don't want to mess your truck up, too. I'm like, I'm not going to pass out or, you know, I'm fine, I can make it.

Yeah.

So he's like, all right. So he ran into the house to call the hospital, and so I headed on down. Finally got cell service and Called my girlfriend, let her know what was going on. And so, you know, I kind of eased into that. And it was kind of funny.

It was like, how's that conversation go?

It's like 8:30 in the morning now. So I call and she answers, and she's like, hi. And I'm like, how you doing? And she's like, oh, I just, you know, got out. Got out of bed and got in the shower, and I'm heading to have coffee with Jill or something, you know, and so, you know, and I'm so. She's like, oh, well, why are you, you know, why are you calling? Aren't you supposed to be up on top of the mountain all day? And I'm like, well, let me tell you. Yeah, had a little run in with the bear. And then, you know, she was in nursing school, so I knew there was going to be some questions. And so I'm like, okay, I'm not bleeding to death. I've got a broken arm, I've got some head lacerations, bunch of puncture wounds, but I'm gonna make it to the hospital fine, you know. And she's just kind of quiet listening. And then she had a couple more questions, and then I just asked her, yeah, can you bring me some clean clothes and meet me at the hospital in Ennis? And she's like, yep, see you in an hour kind of thing. And so then I headed on in. And when I pulled into the hospital there to the emergency entrance, and there was a doctor and a nurse and a sheriff officer right there waiting.

In this hospital, that's, like, all there is, anyway.

Yeah, exactly. One doctor wonders. Yeah, so anyway, they were waiting out front, and so I just pulled right up there. And at that point, you know, it's been a couple hours since the attack, and so all the wounds are just my muscles and everything are cramping up so bad from the bruising and the puncture wounds that I can't even put my truck into park. So I kind of motioned to the sheriff, and he came over and reached over and put the truck in park for me. And then I couldn't reach down to get my seatbelt off, even. And so he had to reach around, get my seatbelt off. And he was like, I can't believe. I'm surprised you took the time to put seat belt on. And safety first. I'm like, well, you know, I just survived a bear attack. I don't want to die in a car wreck on the way here because I didn't have my seat belt on, you know, so that would be bad. Anyway, so he got a chuckle out of that. And I walked into the hospital and everybody in the hospital had heard about it now. So there's like the, the 10 people that are in there or six or whatever they might have been. They're all like lined up in the hallway on each side. It's like I got like a kind of the parading my way down through them, you know, as I'm all bloody and tore up. And they spent a couple hours or an hour doing X rays and then about seven hours of stitches on both my arms and trying to sew me back together so I wouldn't bleed out. And.

God. Yeah, a little bit crazy how many stitches.

I don't think they don't count stitches now. They count like centimeters of stitches. So it was like, you know, 29 centimeters of wounds they stitched up or whatever the was. I don't know. But a lot, A lot, yeah, man. I had to spend like an hour on my head trying to get that. I had a 5 inch gash that was right above my ear on the side of my head and it took him about an hour to stitch that up really nice. And you can't even tell now hair's grown back and until I lose all my hair, you'll never know. But I thought I should just shave that strip right there and just like own that scar.

Yeah, yeah, I got one of those. I got a 5 inch one down the top of my head and they like they, they staple, they stapled it so they're like it overlaps and the hair grows out funny. So like I got a big knot up there. I don't really care.

But oh man, what a crazy, crazy experience. And yeah, just life changing for sure.

Yeah, that's. I'm curious because I think we all grow so complacent in grizzly country. I got a lot of questions about it this year. And I know I've grown complacent even though I know all these accidents are happening, happening. You know, I spend enough time in grizzly country. And you do you become complacent almost.

You do. I mean all those years of me every day working, you know, in the woods and then my weekends in the woods and you do, you kind of get used to it. You see tracks, you see sign, you get a glimpse of a bear or you see one, you watch him feeding around for a while and you kind of work around him and he doesn't even know you were there. And you know, I've Had a couple bluff charges over 30 years, but nothing ever very close. You know, they kind of bluff, charge and stop and look at you, and then they're like, all right, I'm out of here. You know, once they kind of see what you are. So I, you know, I was always prepared. You know, I practiced. I had the bear sprayer pistol. I thought about what to do with the forest service. I'm not allowed to carry a handgun because I'm not law enforcement. So all I have is bear spray. So I'm practiced a lot.

Really?

Yep. Unless you're law enforcement, you can't have like a firearm and a government vehicle or that kind of thing here. So. Yeah, so I've always just had bear spray. And so that's what I've practiced with. And I think that's, you know, I had a pistol with me that day, and I had bear spray. But I'm so used to practicing with bear spray, it just came automatically. I didn't even really think about the fact that I had a pistol at the time. You know, it's just like, up, pull the bear spray just in case, and all of a sudden, whoa. Now it's too late to go to Plan B.

It's 2020. What do you think? Do you think it would have changed?

Well, you know, most situations, bear spray does work, and it, you know, it works well. It's like trying to shoot a bear, you know, running at you at 40 miles an hour. You know, everybody's like, oh, it's not like it's standing up on its hind legs, his arms up, going, shoot me in the stomach or the chest. You know, it's. It's down low, flying through the brush. Their head is missile shaped to where, you know, a ricochet is likely off of the skull. You know, if you do get a shot through the chest, you know, maybe you hit, you know, it's a lot of hair, fur, muscle, bone, heavy bone. Unless you get the perfect shot, you know, you're still probably not going to drop in its tracks. And now you got a wounded animal. It only takes a few seconds before it's going to chew the, you know, crap out of you. So, yeah, it's. It's hard to situation, you know, I mean, the bear's brain is in the back half the of of its skull. He got to shoot it from the side or the back to get a brain shot to drop it or a spine shot. So, you know, and it's one of those things where maybe just the bang would have scared her. I Could have missed her. Maybe the bang would have turned her and she ran off. But you don't know. You know, there's situations where that doesn't do anything to him. So it's hard to say.

It's so true.

You know the.

But like I always think like, man, the one thing that I will say is that I tend to draw it's all situation pennant. I tend to think I would draw a gun first because I would rather have that in my hand if we went to hand to hand combat.

Exactly.

You know, say in that first situation, she's chewing on you. If that pistol was in your hand and obviously, who knows, it could have got knocked out like you said. I mean the bear got knocked or the bear spray got knocked out of your hand. You know, if that's in your hand, would you be able to shoot over your shoulder? Would you know, would that have mattered? It's, it's, it's hard to say. But I do think that you know, if a bear is going to run through spray or it's going to run through, you know, even a miss, whatever is going to happen, like at least there's a gun in your hand when we go to hand to hand combat.

No, I think it's the same thing. I agree that you know, I would have, I want that pistol in my hand too. Just in case, like you said, if it's up close, I'm going to try to empty that thing. Yeah, but I think having the bear spray, you know, having the bear spray just in case too because maybe that's all you need to do is you spray it and then it's turning gone and you don't have to go through an investigation for shooting a bear or something or panicking and shooting too early. It's, there's a lot of things about that too. Losing your licenses because you shot this barrel and you shouldn't have. If they prove that you could have avoided it, you know, it's like, which is pure insanity.

Because in self defense we teach, let's just say we teach people that you should never think about whether it is okay to shoot someone or not to shoot someone. If, if your life feels threatened, you need to not consider that because the last thing you do in a self defense situation, someone breaks into your house and you're like, oh, I don't know if I can shoot this person or not. You end up dead. So in self defense, when it comes to humans versus humans, we teach not to think about that. When it comes to bears, we say, yeah, but if you shoot that bear accidentally, you're gonna lose all of your privileges and your kids are gonna pay for.

It's not, you know, 15 yards or closer. Then they're gonna be questioning you. And yeah, so, you know, but it's your life. So at that time you're like, well, yeah, okay, so I got a big fine maybe, but I'm alive. You know, some people are look at it differently, and now it's even more. It's even. I think it feels worse for me now because now everybody knows my story, knows my situation. If I get into a situation where I have to shoot a bear now, it's going to be looked at double close and everybody's going to be like, oh, you were just out for revenge. You know, screw that.

I feel like you get a freebie.

I don't know, there's a lot of people the other way. They're going to think I was out there for revenge. And I, you know, I should have known better or something. But whatever, you know, I don't. You see it all and people that comment on stuff.

Oh, I do.

Nobody's been in the situation, but yeah.

If you've been tackled and chewed on by a bear, no holds barred, you can shoot a bear at 50 yards for all I care.

I just want to try to avoid getting that situation. You know, I'm always paying attention out ahead of me, but I'm extra, paying close attention a little bit extra now because I want to make sure that I see that bear before it sees me and back out of the situation so I don't have to be in a charge situation or.

So let's walk through that. What do you do differently now? Verse before, you know, three years ago.

Well, I'm. I'm just. My head's on a swivel a lot more than it used to be. I mean, I was always glassing and looking, but now I'm just extra cautious and looking around. I want to make sure I see that situation, avoid it. Like I just said, I always have a pistol. You know, anytime I'm out here hunting or whatever, hiking in the woods, even just hiking up the m, you know, it's like. Yep, you never know. Carrying my pistol, you know, I know my wife, I got a.44, you know, a short barrel.44, open sites on my hip that I can get to quick. Or I've got 10 mm, you know, built into a holster, you know, right on my chest.

Both.

So one or the other just depends on situation. I usually carry the.40 44 but yeah, I've been thinking about that this fall. It's like, geez, I want to carry like two now just in case, you know.

Yeah, there's not a lot to that. So as far as, I mean, going back to hiking at night in the.

Dark, I sense my attack. I've hiked a little bit of semi dark a couple times going up in the morning, but, you know, it's just starting to get light to where at least I know it's only going to be a few hundred or a quarter mile in the dark, and then it's going to start getting light. But I have not done like I did in the past where an hour and a half before daylight, I'm leaving the truck and I'm hiking for five miles in the dark.

You're not helping my case right now.

I haven't done that anymore. I'm just not comfortable with it. It makes me mad and it takes away from a lot of the. The fun of, you know, the excitement of that hunt was to get up there in that, you know, five miles in where I knew the elk were going to be and to be right in the middle of them at daylight and you get that extra time. That's when they're the most active. You know, they're moving around. I got my best chance of getting on one at that point.

Yeah.

And that's. I don't. I'm not comfortable doing that now. And so now it's taken away from some of that fun and it's just changed my whole hunting. You know, that was like the number one thing I love to do every fall. And now it's like, yeah, I still want to get out there, but it's different. It's. And it's unfortunate because I. I think about it going, this is not how it used to be anymore. So I think as time goes, it gets better, though. You know, every day you don't get attacked by a bear, you know, you feel a little better about it. So every year, it's been two years now, and I'm getting more comfortable and you know, and I think, you know, a few more years, as time goes, it'll get better. But, you know, I'm still out there. I made sure I went back in the woods, like the end of the hunting season after I got attacked. I was out the last four days of the season still like a brace on my arm, and I had a buddy with me for a couple of days and. Wow. But as I'm back out there and, you know, in the woods, Every day for work still by myself. You know, that's how I'm working usually and hunting by myself, so. But I'm definitely. It's different and I'm more cautious. For sure.

Yeah. Do you think it's. I mean, obviously you spend a lot of time by yourself. Do you think it's better to have a hunting partner in those situations?

Definitely, if you have a partner or even a couple people. I mean, the more people, the less that's. The less chance that bear is going to be aggressive or charge you or have an attack anyway. It's gonna see extra people. I think that's a good thing for sure. I just don't. It's hard to find people that want to go hunt with me. And, you know, I'm like, okay, I'm leaving here this time. You know, during hunting season, I try to take time off in the middle of the week and avoid some of the crowds. And most people are working. Yeah. And then I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna probably go back in, you know, five miles and hunt all day and feel, no, I don't want to go that far. Far. You know how it is.

Yeah.

I just enjoy that hunt by myself. And there's nobody else that has to, you know, I have to worry about who, you know, another person making noise or where's that person at? You know, it's like it's just me and. And the animals out there. So I prefer it that way. But it's. It's different, for sure.

No, it is. And I, you know, I went through that this year too, and it's most of my life solo hunted. And a lot of it's due to the fact that, you know, I'm all take off for two weeks, and it's tough for people to do the same thing or, you know, most people just don't want to hunt at the same, you know, capacity for. For, I would say for most people in the world, hunting is kind of, you know, like this kind of thing. It's a weekend thing or like a little bit.

Right.

Most people don't have the obsession. And so it's kind of hard to have, like you said, have someone to go with you. But, you know, this year, spin. I spent what, 10 days solo and, you know, in bear country.

Yeah.

And it's like, it does change it. Yeah, it is interesting though. Like, I found when I started hunting in Montana, and actually I'd hunted in Alaska, which was around grizzlies, and I remember coming back to Oregon and like, having no Fear of anything. Because you're like, there's nothing here that can eat me.

Right.

And then you hunt in Montana, and then when you go other places, like, I almost missed that fear in a strange way.

You know, it's just a little bit different excitement there. You're on edge a little bit more.

It's totally different for you. You're like, no, I could go without.

That, be fine without that.

But, oh, man, that is crazy.

Yeah, it was quite the experience, and I'm just hoping I don't ever, ever have to again.

What advice do you give to people when hunting bear country and things like that?

Well, I, you know, telling people to, you know, make sure you have bear spray. Make sure it's not expired. Make sure you've practiced pulling the bear spray and pulling the safety out and do it over and over. The more you do something, it's that muscle memory.

Yeah.

So if you do get in that situation, you just automatically do it. And because you're, you know, when you got something coming at you, charging like that, it's something you're not used to. It's something different. You're like, you don't know what you're going to do. Are you going to, like, start backing up? You're going to turn and run? You know, it's like that instinct to run. It's like you just got to get your stuff. Bear spray out or get your pistol out, whatever it is. You know, if you're carrying a pistol, if that's your protection, make sure you. You're well prepared to use it and know how to use it, and you're. And, you know, shoot under pressure. There's a, I think, tactic, you know, Montana here has a class where they called surviving the grizz. And they actually have the bear target coming at you at 20 miles an hour or something like that. And they have you, like, they get you all stressed out and then have you try to shoot at it and see how well you do. And they practice with both bear spray and. And with their handgun. And I think just practicing all of that. I tell people, you know, take your earbuds, your headphones off or out when you're out hiking around. I see so many people hiking the trails and in bear country, and they're just not going up the trail with the music on, you know, and it's like you can't hear if something's coming from the side or behind you or whatever. It's like, take that stuff off so you can hear what's going on. If I hadn't heard those bears coming both times. I'd had no warning at all. It had been knocked down before I even knew it. So. And just paying attention, you know, get out there and watch around and see what's going on and, and be ready for whatever situation. I mean, everybody's like, oh, it's one in a thousand or one in a million. You get attacked. Yeah, it's. Well, yeah, it's 50, 50. You get attacked or you don't get attacked. You know, it could happen any day you're out there. You just don't know that's true. And everybody's always telling me it's like, ah, you could go out there anytime now. You don't have to ever have to worry about it because it's already happened and the odds are it'll never happen again. It's like, yeah, but when you put yourself in bear country every day for work or play, your odds are going up right there of having a bear encounter. And you don't know from one day to the next, you know, where that bear is going to be. And it might be your time again. You know, I'm hoping I can avoid it, but, yeah, you know, I'm still preparing every day out there like, it could happen again.

Well, and then the odds start over. It's like the roulette wheel. You can't say, you know, just because it hit double zero last time, it's not gonna hit it. They could get hit twice in a row.

Yeah, I know. The first. First day after my. The spring after my attack, my first day back at work, and I was working at Buck Ridge, south of Big sky up here and doing some trail work up there. And I pulled up to the trailhead and had a sow and cub grizz run right across in front of me at about 40 yards. And she stopped and stood up and looked at me, and then she ran again. And it was just the first bear I'd seen in, like, my first day in the woods for work. And it's like I got a whole summer to work up here, you know, and I just. The whole day I was just on edge, you know, she ran the other way and was gone. But it's just like the whole day I'm just like, oh, my God, what's going to happen next? You know, oh, my God. It's a good reminder that, you know, that could happen to me any day out there, you know, just. You just got to be heads up and prepared for it and. And, you know, be ready.

Did it feel like a great accomplishment. Last year when you killed that bull, what was your guess? Was that your first bull after the accident?

I haven't shot a bull. I didn't shoot a bull since.

I thought you got one last year.

No, I did not.

No.

I got into a bunch of elk last year and got. I just couldn't find a big one. And so I got into a bunch of younger bulls and I got some great video. I got in and there was two groups of five bulls one day, a little six point and some raghorn, four and five points. And it was about a foot of snow in like the last couple of weeks of the season. And I got into one of the groups and I was able to kind of sneak in, get glassed them all. And I could see they were all younger bulls. I'm like, I'm going to. I want to shoot a big one, you know, so I'm not going to shoot these. So I actually put my pistol back in the holster and got my camera out and I was trying to sneak in. I'm like on my knees kind of scooting through the snow, getting closer. And I got to about 35 yards. Like there are five bulls kind of bedded in like a semicircle. Two of them are feeding and three bedded below me. I got photos of each of them and then had the two a five point, a six point in front of me that I got video of at 35 yards. You know, I was kind of zoomed in with my little. Just my little point shoot camera, but got some great video. And they're just like right there. And the wind was coming right in my face.

Perfect.

So I spent like 45 minutes just on my knees in the snow taking video. And I'd scoot five feet closer and get some more and just kept doing it. And then all of a sudden I was. I remember thinking I haven't been paying any attention around me because I've been so. And it's like I could have like a bear or a mountain lion doing the same thing to me. So all of a sudden I was like, okay, looking around me now every 30 seconds to make sure some bear's not coming in behind me because I'm hunkered down in the snow, it's moving really slow, you know. But anyway, so I had got some great video at like 35 yards of a fight, nice five point, little six point bowl. And then I had another group of five bulls that morning that I got into about 50 yards from and had one five by six at like 50 yards broadside. And I had the pistol on him and just like, nah, I'm gonna hold out for a big one. And never did see a big bull last year. So all the bulls were younger bulls I didn't want to kill, but. So I had plenty of opportunity. Could have filled my tag pretty easily.

But it's just funny that you hunt with a pistol and you're still a picky hunter like most guys.

I shot a couple monsters, you know, I shot a couple three. 43, 350 bulls.

That's crazy.

Actually two in a row and two years in a row. Got my two biggest.

Yeah.

So. And I was like, okay, I'm kind of looking at 350, 330 plus range anyway.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So how close do you usually try to get with your pistol?

Well, most of the time I'm in the trees. Like I'm saying, I'm hunting in the timber. And so your distance is about 100 yards. It seems like in the timber around here we're about the farthest you're going to see in. In that timber. Maybe it's a little closer sometimes. So I've shot most of my bulls at about 100 yards. I've shot four over 200.

No kidding.

Yeah, I shoot a lot. I've shot out to like, you know, I know how much it's going to drop. My farthest bull was 252 yards that I ranged him at. And I knew how much my bullet was going to drop. And he was bedded and I knew exactly or not he was standing. I guess he had just stood up out of his bed. I knew how much the bullet was going to drop, you know, and I held a foot and a half over his shoulder, whatever, a little bit uphill and. And squeezed her off and use that.

Like a tripod or how do you rest it?

No, I just like looking for something to lean against a tree or one hand. That thing out there, shooting across my knees, kind of laying back, using my knees as a rest, shooting that way a number of different ways. I shot most of them offhand. 100 yards offhand is pretty easy. It's pretty good. The farthest I've shot offhand was 150 yards. I didn't want to shoot him offhand, but it was just a five by five probably ten years ago. And I saw it sneaking through the trees and he was in a little opening and saw him. And I'm like, okay, there's a bull. I'll take that One. And so I sat down to try to get a good rest. And when I sat down, all I could see was his horns because there's a little bit of a rise between us. Then I stood back up. When I stood back up, he saw me move and his head came up. He was just feeding and he was looking right at me. And I just held it right under his chin and squeezed her off. And it hit him right up through the neck and into his spine. And he just took one big leap to the side. And when he lit, he lit on his side like leg stiff, stone dead.

Wow.

So I stepped that one off. It's like 151 yards. So that's my farthest offhand. But I shoot a lot, you know, I shoot hundreds of rounds, you know, every summer. And I know what the bullet's going to do. I don't take any chances as far as if there's any wind or, you know, if an animal's moving. I'm not going to shoot at it with a pistol. It's got to be dead still. Broadside, you know, put one right behind the shoulder.

What bullet you using, just out of curiosity?

240 grain soft point, you know, like a lead, solid lead bullet. Okay.44 mag. Do my own, my own reloading. So pretty hot load and nice shoots. Pretty flat, but yeah, it does the job, you know, I mean you gotta hit one maybe square in the shoulder or something like that. It might be. Wouldn't be as good as a rifle, but it's still, it's going out there like 1600ft per second with a 240 grain bullet. It's got a lot of impact.

What nose is on it. Is it like a. You know, the old Elmer Keith used to use the semi wad cutters?

Yeah, it's like a semi type bullet. Yeah, yeah, yep, it does the job. Punches a hole right through there and. Yeah. So pretty exciting. Yeah. We were talking earlier about the whole animal wandering and you know, and that kind of a thing when it's going to bed down. I just thought about a couple stories like that that it's following an elk and it just noticed that pattern. How it they start to. They'll circle around above you. A lot of times the smarter bulls, they'll circle and come back above you to see if you're following below them. If they know they're being followed.

Oh, if they know they're being followed, yeah.

So when I start seeing those tracks, you know, maybe they're running, you jumped them and they start to walk and pretty soon their tracks are closer. They're walking kind of slow and starting to meander a little bit. Then I'm really paying attention, like above me and not just out in front of me because they'll circle kind of back above and be watching down on you. And I've seen that so many times where all of a sudden they'll just make like a turn and come back. And then you see them stopped and they just stood there and took a piss and they're just waiting and all of a sudden you see the tracks running then because they heard you or saw you down below him coming.

So then after you realize that you start looking up.

You start spending a lot of, yeah. Looking uphill or trying to be okay, I think he's going to come back up above me and end up here. So I'll try to cut up and you know, instead of going stand right on his tracks.

Terrain wise, does that ever. Have you noticed it was like, okay, if he's about to cross a saddle, he'll check before he. I know, you know, a lot of deer will check before they cross over a ridge. They give her like, can you look at your topo? Can you go on. On X and be like, okay? He's gotta be, I mean, how much time you spend looking at your maps?

I don't look at the maps at all. I don't even have map on my GPS that I use on my phone or anything like that when I'm hunting. I'll look at a map before I go, you know, maybe. But most of the places I'm hunting, I've hunted for 30 years too, so I know the terrain and I'm like, I don't need a map. I've got old school GPS that I'll take a point like if I killed something just to make sure that I could find it the next day up in a blizzard or something like that. But other than that, I don't look at any of the topo or anything like that. Now. Well, now I've actually got stuff on my phone. I could do it now. You know, I haven't even done that yet, but maybe this year. But no. So I'm just, just following the terrain, following the animals, looking. I know you want to get those flat spots. They'll usually bed down. It starts to flatten out on a ridge or something or maybe a little flat bench and then heavy timber and you start to see their tracks meandering and it's pretty obvious you'll see them just starting to kind of do this. And it's almost like they're just looking for where's that perfect little soft mossy bed behind a tree? You know, I remember there was, I was up hunting one time and had a big six point ball that I was been chasing for like four hours and just I kept jumping in my thick timber. I could not get close enough and couldn't get a shot. I noticed him doing that meandering thing and so I've got, I slowed down and I'm looking really close ahead of me, just scanning. I take like two steps and I'd scan back and forth and it's like I need to see him before he sees me because I know he's right in here somewhere watching or bedded. And I just kept moving like this. I just kept telling myself over and over, slow down, slow down. No noise, no mistakes. And all of a sudden it was like 12 yards in front of me and I can't step around a tree and there's a big log laying there and this bullet bedded behind that log and his antlers are sticking up and I can see just his skull plate, his antlers and he's looking right, facing right at me and he can't see me. His eyes are behind the log, but he could hear me coming the whole time. I just froze. And I got my pistol and It's a variable two to seven variable. So I turn the scope down to two power because it's like right there like 10 or 12 yards, you know, and I'm just like, okay. And he's not moving, but his antlers are sticking clear up. It's huge bull. And he's looking right at me and I'm just like, okay. I know he knows I'm here. It's just a matter of time. He's going to stand up and as soon as he stands up, I'm going to just drill him. So I'm just holding the pistol there, waiting. I got the scope of turned down and waiting and it's like 30 seconds, 45 seconds, a minute. I'm like, come on, when is this going to happen? You know? And finally he, he stands up and when he stands up, even on two power on my scope, all I can see is fur. You know, there's like, I didn't have a good shot because I didn't know what the, what I was looking at. So I went like this for a second and he stood up and immediately turned to run and he was just going straight away and I was like, I can't Take a running shot on him. 12 yards, like 10 or 12 yards, and my scope, and it was too close. I couldn't get the shot. And then he was gone. I didn't want to chance it. And so I'm like, I'll get back on him again and end up following him until dark. And I finally. It's like, it's getting too late. Got to get out of here.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. But he just did, like, you know, a couple hundred yards, and it's just wandering around stuff, like, even just tracks close together and just total meandering. Like he's looking for a good spot to bed down. And it's like really thick jungle timber. And he finally found his place.

And when you bump them like that, do you continue to follow the tracks? You had mentioned earlier about trying to, like, circle the situation. It seems like it'd be safer to just keep all the trash.

Yeah, it depends. Unless it's, like, an area that I've known really well and what I've seen elk commonly doing, and they're like, okay, if you bump them out of here, they're going to go up this ridge into that next jungle timber. Maybe it's closer for me just to, you know, contour around, because I know they're going to come out there and then try to come up where I think they're going to bed. So if I've got, you know, past experience of what they've done commonly in that area, I'll do that. But otherwise, just try to stick to their track and just so I don't lose them. And maybe there's other elk tracks or whatever trying to follow their tracks. And, you know, you jump them, they'll run 3, 400 yards usually. Then they slow down and they might be trotting, and sometimes they'll just stop and see if you're coming, or sometimes they'll trot for a half a mile and then. But eventually they slow down again, and then they start, you know, okay, they're taking their time. They're watching their stop to look. You'll see where they've stopped and stood there kind of for five minutes, looking to see if you're coming or if they can hear you. And they'll meander again or whatever and just keep sticking to them. Sometimes you catch them three or four times.

Oh, is it easier to track a single bull or multiple bulls? Seems like multiply harder because you're just dealing with more eyes.

More eyes, I guess. But, you know, there's more noise, too. If you Got three or four bulls. If they're. They're feeding, you know, they're not always, like, right together. Sometimes they spread out. You know, they're 50 yards apart. And so you'll have one making some noise over here, one crunching something here, one's rubbing a tree here. That's just a little bit more noise too, but definitely more eyes.

Yeah.

And then it seems like they never all like, bed down the same time, the same way. It's like, you'll get one beds and he's facing downhill, and then you'll get one over here. It beds up 200 yards away, looking this direction, and then you got three in the middle that are feeding, and you're like, okay, I can't. How do I get around these? These. How do I get to those? These bulls aren't big enough. And it's always the one you want, the one that you can't get on. It's like, I can shoot that one for, you know, 10 times. It's so easy. And they're the one you want. You know, you never get a shot on it. You see his butt the whole time.

But yeah, if you. Hypothetically, you know, you don't have an elk right at daylight, what's your go to plan? Like, how do you. I mean, obviously, you know, these terrains, you know, a lot of things. Let's just work backwards, though, for, you know, advice, I guess, to people who are, you know, want to just track down a bull, you know, if you didn't know the area and know, like, okay, here's the spot, I want to go check. Because I always see elk here. Like, what would be a good go to plan if you don't. No eyes on at daylight, just start working ridges, do you?

Yeah, I don't. I don't have the patience just to sit there. And usually I'm going, you know, I'm just. I just want to keep walking and stay warm and just keep moving.

And that's the thing about late season November is you kind of.

You gotta have to keep moving 10 degrees, you know, out there. I had a couple. Couple times. Well, we'll get back to that. But anyway, yeah, so I'd. I just keep. I'm always moving. So if I'm not into elk, I'm just covering country. I'm looking for tracks or I'm looking to spot elk. So I'm like, all right, I just find some timber where there might be a good spot where I could. You know, I've seen elk here before, so I'll hunt that whole stretch of timber, maybe do some figure eights up through or zigzags kind of, and cover all that timber. Like, all right, there's no tracks. There's nothing bedded in here. Let's go up this ridge and look off the other side. And so I get up there in glass and I may be looking down into some, you know, scattered timber up in the high country. And I'm glassing and I don't see anything in there. I'm looking, okay, to follow the ridge all the way up to any elk move out of that draw or into that draw, you know, last night. And so I follow the ridge all the way up and okay, here's four fresh tracks that came out here four or five hours ago. And they're contouring this direction. Okay, Now I'm getting on those tracks and heading that way and seeing what those are, you know, so just kind of looking for the next set of tracks or getting up to. To where you can glass something and, and in later. And you know, after like 9 o' clock in the morning, it's like, okay, they're all in the trees. So it's like start following, you know, hunting these strips of timber down and just see if there's something in there. See if you can find something, get on something.

If you're working at chunk of timber and you, you don't obviously not following tracks. You're just kind of checking what's. How fast are you going or, I mean, how often you glassing. Is it pretty. You still going slow or you trying to cover ground?

I, you know, you, you get. You slack off after a while. Yeah, there's nothing in here. And you start picking up your speed a little bit and you a big bowl. I've done that so many times, and I've done it in the same exact spot a couple times. So there's this one ridge. I was just thinking of that. I, I always, on my way out, I always go down the same ridge because it's got like three or four little flat benches on this little sharp ridge right on the edge of the timber. And like four times I've jumped a nice bull on that ridge. And it was like twice in exactly the same place. And now every time I go down there, I like, I'm, okay, that ridge is a hundred yards below me. And so I get really slow and I'm glassing like every 10ft, you know, trying to make sure that if he's there this time, I'm going to be ready. But so I'm working through the trees and I try to, you know, you kind of get lax and you get in a hurry a little bit sometimes, but I just try to tell myself it's like, you know, slow down and just take your time and just watching ahead. And I'll. I think I've kind of figured out how any little change in shape or color or movement out in front of me within 100 yards catches my eye. And so I can just, I can scan pretty fast. And I just pretty much am walking. I look down, I can kind of see where my next 10 steps are. And then you look up, and your peripheral vision kind of helps you step over logs. But I'm scanning back and forth the whole time, and anything that looks out of place, it's like I stop, pull up the binoculars, look at it, and you know, it might be a bird flickers or a tail of a squirrel. And you're like, what is that? Or just that little patch of brown and you're like, is that a stump? Is that a scar on a tree? What is that? You look up and most usually it's a broken tree or a stump or something. And all of a. You're like, oh, that's just a six inch patch of hair on the hind flank of an elk. You know, all right, I got some elk here. So you stop a minute and wait. All soon you see it move and you're like, okay, now where's my next. What's my plan? You know, how do I get into them? And so just constantly moving through the trees. And the biggest thing is you got to see them before they see or hear you. And that's just learning to glass and, you know, just paying attention to the wind and, you know, just trying to get on them, trying to smart outsmart them.

Yeah. So over the years, I mean, you spent a lot of years hunting, doing the same thing, you know, mastering this technique, so to speak. How much do the bulls are you finding in the same spots? Do you think that, you know, elk kind of inherently use those same timber patches year?

I think so, yeah. I think a lot of places that I hunt, I've kind of got, you know, a number of areas. I'll go back. It's like, all right, if I'm going up this drainage, the first place I want to be is right here at daylight. And I'll hunt this one big bench of timber. Maybe it's a mile long and a half mile high, and it's kind of a flat bench. And I'll. It's kind of jungle. And I'll work through that and just cover that whole area first because that's like the most likely place I've seen bulls in the past. Like, okay, nothing here, so maybe they're over in this next piece. And so I'll kind of work from one to the next. But I think that they commonly use the same area. And especially if you maybe have water there or maybe there's good feed or, you know, grass. Or maybe it's just the right, you know, adjacent to that timber patch is a perfect hillside full of grass to feed on all night. That's melted off a little bit because it's south facing, you know, with the snow or whatever the situation might be.

If you're running into a lot of cows, are you. I mean, obviously you're looking for big bulls. You're not just looking for any bull. If you're seeing cows in small bulls, are you kind of thinking maybe need to move to a different area?

No, not necessarily at all. I've seen groups of cows and calves with a. Maybe in small bull spikes. It seems like I see a lot of spikes and four corns kind of hang out with the cows and calves a lot. There's younger bulls and you might see a batch here. And then right adjacent to that's four bulls all by themselves. I've seen them all together like that.

Before, which is funny because in Oregon a lot of guys will say if you're in cows and spikes, you're in the wrong spot. Like, you're in the wrong canyon.

I've seen them all interacting in the same area.

So Montana is very different though. I mean, it's just everything, it's a lot. I mean, the terrain is different. How the elk use. The terrain is different. Everything's, you know, very, very different. So it's, it's, it's just cool to see it. And like, I just historically have known, like, oh, if you're into cows and spikes, it's not, you know, it's not big bulls, but it seems like they.

Move around so much. And I think it depends on where they were just pushed from. You know, they might have been over here and then someone else went through there and pushed them over the hill and now they're here. Well, there might be two or three groups of elk right in that area. And unless someone runs out them out of there, there's really no reason for them to leave.

So I do think that gets to be a big piece of it. There's just a lot of pressure.

Yeah. And that's why I'm always trying to go where the people aren't. You know, it's like, I, I, I'd be up there hunting all day, and it's like I see, like, two people, you know, and they're, they're still a mile away, but it's like, oh, I saw somebody today that ruined my day. And I'll Obviously, it's funny how, you know, I pay really close attention in the trees. You know, I've been telling that, scanning and, and stuff. And I'll be hunting in the timber, and all of a sudden it's like there's a movement, and like, that's some orange or something, or that's camo. It's a man or whatever. And, and they're not paying quite as good of attention. You know, it's all just stop. And I'll watch some guy walk right by me, like, all right, he's hunting that direction. I'm going to go a half mile straight up and maybe he'll, you know, go the other direction. Yeah. I don't really want someone to bump something into me because I like the whole idea of I want to see stalk. I want to see them and stalk in there and move on and outsmart them. I don't want someone to run an animal by me. I don't want to kill something that's just running from somebody. To me, that's not hunting. That's just shooting. So to me, the hunt is, like, true. That's what I love about pistol hunting. That's why I hunt the timber. It's like, I want to see that animal. I want to figure out a plan because of the wind, because of where he's feeding, the terrain, maybe the other bulls that are in that group and figure out how to move in, outsmart them, and, you know, be smarter than those five bulls and get a shot on a big one, you know? So I, you know, what is that?

Why do we, like, why do we as hunters have this? Because I do think a lot of people have that. This, I don't know, lust for being able to sneak in on an elk. And to me, it's like I've become very fond of a pass on a lot of bells during bow season, and one of my favorites is to pass on a bowl leave. And he still doesn't know I exist.

Right.

You know, like, I don't know. To me, like, it feels like you're.

Like, to me too. Yeah, it's like, like, it's just like, okay, this is an animal that's in his habitat. And he's got better scent and better eyesight and better hearing than I do. You know, all these different senses are better than I. But I still outsmarted him somehow. And it's just. I don't know, it's just a feeling of, like, accomplishment and kind of being one with the animals. And, you know, I'm not like a bloodthirsty hunter. I don't need to kill. I want to. You know, to me, I always tell people, it's like, I'd rather shoot an elk on the last day of the season just so I could have all those experiences. Up until then, it's like, oh, so close, or I passed those up or it didn't quite work or whatever. But on the last day, still get some meat in the freezer.

Yeah, that's the best case scenario.

And, you know, because I, you know, I do. I want that. That fresh, wild meat, you know, and. But I'm not going to. You know, I go a lot of times where I don't shoot anything. You know, like, last couple years, I could have shot these raghorn bulls, but, you know, it's like, I still had a little bit of meat left in the freezer. It wasn't a big deal. Or I could get some meat from my dad because he shot a cow or whatever, you know, and it's like, I'm going to hold out for that bigger one. A lot of times you don't ever kill. You don't feel your tag, you know, but it's like, I still had a lot of successful hunts. Right. You know, I got into the animals. I had the experience. I got some great photos or videos. I could have filled my tag. I didn't. You know, I chose not to. And I'm okay with that. I'm getting exercise, I'm getting fresh air, and I'm getting the experiences of just being out there. I'm learning more. It's just more. It's just enjoyable.

Well, right now I'm, like, bummed that I shot a bowl during bow season because we're talking about tracking bulls, and I just want to go track bulls. I know. And it's. I don't know, it's. It's a weird catch. 22 when you fill a tag. You're like, freezer's full.

Yeah.

But at the same time, a part of you is, man, I wish I still had a tag.

And there's all that. There's that side of me, too, that it's just like, you know, here's a majestic wild animal, you know, that you're taking its life for, for, you know, for food to fill your freezer. But it's also, it's part of your, just the, the enjoyment of being out there and outsmarting that animal too. But, you know, so I'm definitely, you know, I, I, I, when I shoot something, I'm like thanking, you know, I'm thankful for this animal giving, giving me the opportunity and for providing food for, you know, a couple hundred pounds of good meat for my freezer for the next year.

Yeah.

And you know, at the same time, it's wildlife management as well. You know, it's like you have to maintain this herd at a certain population and.

Yeah, yeah, but if it was only for food, we wouldn't be trying to find the big bull that's all the way at the top of the mountain in the middle of a blizzard. You know, like, to me, like we were talking about this and one, I just imagine, you know, tracking this bull on a blizzard and finding, to me, I like, I love one of the things I love about rifle hunting and I've just recently kind of got into rifle hunting. I grew up, we rifle hunted and I bow hunted most of my life and had recently started rifle hunting again with friends and things like that. And oh man, there's nothing better than finding a lone bull in either the bottom of a hell hole or the top of a mountain. And he just by himself. And you're like, yes, I found you. And to me, like, I won at that point. But then if I can get in range, then you just added this level of like, oh, pistol range. It's like bow range, but adds this piece to it.

Yeah, it's kind of like, kind of like the bow hunting. But you're, you're not in camouflage, you're in orange, so you're still glowing in the woods, but you got to get in closer. And the bulls are not bugling and they're not chasing cows around. They're all together bedded different directions looking in every direction. So I think the pistol lining is, you know, definitely more difficult, which is.

Similar because I've been hunting with my Sharps. So I have a 1874 Sharps and I've taken a couple elk with that and that's, it's very similar. You know, like it's not quite a rifle.

Right.

And I just, I don't know, there's this nostalgia to it for me. And you have to get closer and the open sights makes it harder and all these Seasons, like it's just added to it, but man.

Yeah, that's why, you know, I'd shot 27 bull elk with my 44 and I'm like, okay, I need to put it up. I get to step at a different level here. Make a little bit tougher. Let's go with a 10 mm. I'm, you know, instead of a 200 yard shot, I'm at 100 yard shot. You know, that's what I figured about Max on that. So it just puts a little bit more of a challenge to it and just something different to try. And that's cool.

Yeah, that is really cool. Man. I wish I had another tag. And I think tracking is fun. Like, man, I have a small fascination with like tracking, you know, being a tracker or whatever.

You just learned so much being out in the woods like that and following the game around and following the trails and just seeing their habit or their habits and. And just getting in the middle of them and seeing what they do and. And you know, I love the. I carry just a cat, you know, it's not a good camera, but I just carry a little point shoot kind of camera and I just try to get in there. And all these bulls that I don't shoot, I want to get photos anyway and record this, you know, like, oh, that's really cool. So I love the photography side of it. And just what's this animal gonna do and what. You know, just seeing the different things they do when you're out there in the woods, it's fun as well. So awesome.

Well, thank you so much. You've definitely inspired me. Made me a little envious. I'm headed to Wyoming for. To do some rifle hunting and so it's. It's not too bad, but I don't have a whole lot of time. But it would be really. I would love to be able to hunt late season Montana right now.

Just track.

I might go do it anyway. I'm just tracking them around.

Think about hunting with a pistol next year. More challenge to it. I know something different. It's fun.

I would definitely be interested. So. All right, well, thank you. Where can guys follow along, see some pictures and things like that. Do you.

I'm on Facebook and Instagram both. Easy to find me on there. It's the guy with the big bloody face on the. On the thing and.

Yeah, what a crazy story.

And then I build custom knives. Oh yeah? Yeah. Build sky blade knives.

Sky blades.

Skyblade knives.com, if anybody's.

What kind of knives?

Mostly hunting knives. But I got 30 or 40 different models, all different blade lengths and shapes and sizes and handles. And I'll do everything myself using steel available since 87. Wow. 31 years in knife making.

Almost as long as I've been of.

Alive side side business building custom knives. So wow. It's been crazy busy, but if anybody's looking for something for hunting season or Christmas, we can make it happen.

Yeah, we'll put some links to that in the show notes and everything. But thank you so much. It was awesome.

Appreciate.