Getting Tags in 2025 with Jaden & Cody

Foreign. This is the Elk Hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. All right, this episode of the Elk Hunt podcast is brought to you by Wild Meat Gear. And I love this product. Love, love, love this product and this concept. So just this year even I was like, man, I really need a walk in cooler someday. For as long as I can remember, I have dreamed about having a walk in cooler and, and being able to put my meat somewhere that's just, you know, perfect, right? And mobile meat gear. Sorry. All right, this episode of the Elk Hunt podcast is brought to you by Wild Meat Gear and one of the coolest new products I've seen in a very long time. I can't tell you like it. For as long as I can remember, I've always wanted my own walk in cooler. That is like the ultimate dream. In fact, when I was in Oregon, I had to get buddy with a walk in cooler and like, that was like the envy of all envies. I'm not, I'm not big about houses or cars or trucks, but man, if you got a walk in cooler, you had it made. And so this product came out and I absolutely love it. Essentially, it's a portable meat locker. It's a heavily insulated pop up that you attach an AC port or an AC unit to and use the cool bot. So you guys have probably seen like cool bots that make your own walk in coolers. Well, I would love to have that even, but this is even better because it's something you can just fold up, put away for the year and you can pop it out in your garage, in your shop, wherever, and have a mobile meat locker. In fact, if you had a generator, you could even take it with you to elk camp and just set it up, which is so cool. It's such a genius idea. And Wild Meat Gear has a purpose built portable meat locker. Go check them out. The website is wildmeatgear.com but if you're interested in winning one of these things, we're doing a giveaway and we're giving one away to one of our elk hunt community members. To get entered, all you gotta do is sign up for the newsletter and or go purchase the course. You'll get five entries. What a cool product. Absolutely love it. This, this giveaway is only for the meat locker. You'll still have to buy your AC unit and your cool bot. But you know what? That is a screaming deal. And to me, it's huge because, you know, it doesn't take up as much room. So. Absolutely love this new product. Congrats for crushing it on. On the design, on everything. To the Wild Meat Gear team. Go check them out. Wild meatgear.com. really cool product.

And I wrote this five units for less than 10 points in Wyoming. Yeah, I wrote it for Eastman's.

Yeah. I saw it.

And I got some good love letters from it.

Like some not good levels.

Yeah, exactly. And it's funny, most people who are calm. I like it. I. I don't think anyone looked at who wrote it because I, like, they were bashing Eastmans. Yeah, they're bashing Eastmans. And some of them were, like, friends of mine, like, people. I do. And they were just ripping on it. And I was just like, all right, but. And funny enough, yeah, a lot of it was residents who were saying, you're ruining these places, like, la, la, la. And I was just like, man. But it always feels like if you have the information already, you're pissed when somebody else gives it away. But if you didn't have the information, wouldn't you want, like.

Right.

How are you going to get it?

Yeah, it's a slippery slope. So, like, the same thing. So I did that E Scouting course for Onx.

Yeah.

And the funny thing is, is people are like, I hope you got paid a lot of money. It's like, I did it for, like, I did. Well, I mean, I have a contract with them, but I had nothing to do with that contract. I just did it.

Yeah.

And like, for the record, I did it, you know, like, as, like, whatever. Call it, like a piece of content to. To drive courses, whatever. Like, interest. Like, again, you give away. Give away a bunch of those, I don't know, secrets, but, like, give away all the information and then sell the implementation. Yeah.

Like, here's the ingredients.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

But to that point, like, dude, if, like, if you look at that E Scouting, which is like four hours long, and you think you got secrets, like, you just don't know what you don't know. You know, like, it's not good enough to do anything. Like, I've never been to the unit and it's like just a pretty basic overview of things. And granted, you know, it went on YouTube and I was, like, pretty nervous about people bashing it or whatever.

Yeah.

And I. I didn't. Didn't give up anything. Whatever. No one really said anything on YouTube. It was like the 30 second clips on Instagram where people lose their goddamn mind of like, I can't believe you gave up secret. I'm like, there's not a secret. Like, there's nothing secret. This is just like, here's how I would look at a brand new area. And like, I did not even dive deep. Right. Like, and if that's as like, if, if you take that as like I'm going here. First of all, I've never been there. I just spent like maybe an hour thinking about it. You know, it's like, it's. It's deep. I would put let's say 30 to 40 times more hours and effort into a unit I was actually curious about. Maybe some of it pans out, maybe someone doesn't. But like, I don't know, People just get really pissed about it.

Yeah. And it's funny because we were talking about this at lunch. It's like a honey hole one year.

Right.

Or whatever can just dry up the next year and not be the same thing. And like, if you think that your best spot is always going to be your best spot.

Yeah.

Like, is you wrong?

Well, you know, there's, you know, I. I giggle at the comment of like, okay, give me your best spot. You know any best spots I've never been back to.

Yeah.

Like it. And there's maybe a couple that like, I would be like, oh, don't give that one up. But then honestly, there's been places where I'm like, oh, don't give that one up. We had this conversation today at lunch. We were talking to Lucas, a place where I chased a absolute giant. I haven't seen an elk there in three years. Yeah. I don't like good luck.

Well, it's just like my deer spots around home too. Like, I've not. I've killed five bucks in like an hour of driving from home. Never in the same drainage.

Right. Like, yeah. There's a saying, like, don't chase dead cheap or don't chase dead elk or whatever.

Like, same thing.

Yeah. Like most of these guys. And so I think, you know, this is the, the hard part that I try to tell people is like, I'm so big on. And this is just the way my brain works. Not everyone's works this way. I'm so big on. Like, have a system.

Yeah.

Because once you have a system, like, that's the thing about E Scouting. Right. Like, we'll just take that, that piece of the puzzle. If you have a system for E Scouting and you can rinse and repeat that you're not relying on. Like, I know this one spot that my grandpa gave me. Right. And that's great. And that works until it doesn't. But if you, if that's all you have, you have nothing. Like, you literally have nothing. And I think that's the kind of. The problem a lot of people have is like, they're bouncing from, like, intel to intel of like, their buddies told them about a spot or whatever, or like, whatever, but they don't have a way of replicating that. And I think that was kind of always. My thing is I always want to be able to just like, go anywhere, go to a new state and figure it out. Right. And once you. I think once you have that skill. That's why I'm not overly concerned about burning my own spots. Mainly because I don't go back to them. Mainly because once you kill something there, it's like, kind of loses its. Not just interest, but, like, generally I can't think of one spot I've killed multiple bulls at, that's for sure. Because it changes. Right? And like, all these factors change. And like, I'm still bouncing from intel to intel. Like, I had a conversation off POD podcast last night and, you know, it was like, oh, he. This guy was this, this or the other thing. It's kind of a little piece of intel. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. It's like it's going in the Rolodex. It adds to the Rolodex into the system. But by no means is it like, oh, yeah, that's the thing.

Yeah.

I think you learn this as a guide, probably. It's like, man, everything changes always, and I have to keep, I don't know, figuring it out.

Well, yeah, and it's like the. I went into a new unit guiding this year, and the guy before me, they didn't see any elk on the, on our property that we normally hunt. And then I came in and I was like, it was right the second week of October.

Yeah.

And bulls started breaking off from cow groups and all of a sudden, like, they started trickling back across the line. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, now we're. Now we're hunting single bulls as they break away. And like, as that season progressed, like, our property got better and better and better. And then on the fifth day, fourth day of the hunt, killed a nice bull, like where we. Where they should have been on the week prior, you know?

Yeah.

But, yeah, it's just always changing. Like, if you don't know why. Then how are you gonna. How are you gonna make it a change when they're not there?

I'd also argue, you know, I. I get. There's a lot of guys that don't e scout. There's a lot of guys that are like, I just want to, you know, boots on the ground. To me, it's. I mean, it's better than nothing, obviously, but, like, it's not. Like, to use the business term is not scalable. Right. Like, so if I only went on intel and I was like, oh, someone told me Unit 32 is good, and I'm like, I'm gonna go, like, just spend the whole summer. Right. Like, that's a tactic if you have a bunch of time. But I don't. It's not for me because, like, it doesn't fit into my system or whatever of, like, you know, how I do things. And I think that's, like, to me, I. I can't wrap my head around like, that. I. That does feel like the most common tactic is like, I'm gonna hear about a unit from a buddy, and I'm gonna go just chomper trump around it for a year and try to figure out if there's oak there or not.

Yeah.

Do you feel like that's more like. That's the most, like, I don't know, more common.

Most common for local people, for sure.

Well, that's. Okay. So maybe it's a local thing, and then you just apply that to a new state.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think especially the people just hear like, we were just at lunch and some homeboy was telling us about this, I don't know, 190 something.

Right.

Deer that somebody killed out of a mountain range. You're like, I've never heard of a big buck coming out of there. I don't know.

The drop of intel.

A little drop of intel. But also, like, I don't. I, like, saw that. Yeah, exactly. I was like, I saw that. And I was like, yeah, I wouldn't bank on that happening again.

Right, right. Don't. Just don't chase that deer.

Like, it's when you see, like, a trend going in a direction, that's when things start making more sense. If I heard of five people in one year killing nice deer out of there, then I'd be like, huh, Interesting.

But, yeah, like, one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That can happen anywhere, anytime.

Right? Do you ever, like, oh, why did that buck come from there?

Yeah. And I think a lot of times in Montana. Montana is a good example of this, Oregon is a really good example. Colorado, there's just so much country that is thick and hard to see crap in. Like, stuff just gets old, right? And then every once in a while, like, I don't mind saying this. Did you see that buck that got killed a few years ago out of Mount Emily that was just like, freak.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're just like. You're just like, how in the hell did that happen? I was like, because you can't kill them all.

Yeah, yeah. Mount Emily does produce, like, Mount Emily does produce a few, like, but it's like a rare thing, right?

Yeah.

It wouldn't be like, oh, I'm gonna go bank on it. Yeah. How do you think about intel that you gather? Like, when you think about, like, oh, so and so killed a big buck somewhere, do you?

It's always trends. I always look at. Like, I. If someone tells me one thing about a unit, I'll be like, noted. And then like, like, just what you're saying, you're just like, stacking it up. But if I get five people to say something about a unit, then I'm like, okay, that makes more sense.

Yeah, but what do you. What kind of weight do you put on bio biologist info?

Dude, I like it. I like it a lot because it tells me where everyone else is going to be hunting.

No, I'm just saying, like, like, do you put like much? Okay, so you almost put reverse weight on it. Which is what I was going to say is like, okay, that's where not to go. But, like, as far as, like, yeah, maybe like, animal details. Try to like.

I like it, though, because, like, it a good question to ask. Let's just say if you're elk hunting in any of these western dry units or, you know, the drier states, if you go like, hey, where's the elk depredation happening in the winter? I was just telling the guy this the other day. I was like. And then you work that backwards, like, where are they coming from?

Right.

To hit those fields that are causing so much problems. And like, those are the kinds of things I think you could ask better questions of them and then figure out where the elk are.

That's a really good question. What other questions you have for biologists? What's on your list?

Oh, I usually. Yeah, figuring out where hunter pressure is going to be is.

That's a good one.

And then. Yeah, the other one is land. Yeah. Figuring out where, like, land owners offer access and it doesn't have to be public access, but just like, hey, where's you know, who lets their kids, like, hunt all over. You know, you got turkeys in your backyard.

Oh, Jesus. Yeah, there's hundreds of them things, too. They are a problem.

I could. Yeah.

Anyway, sidebar. If anybody knows anyone who wants turkeys, like, I was gonna call Dale and ask him if, like, the turkey federation does, like, transplant. I will give you a hundred birds tomorrow because the turkey in my yard, I'm over it. So, yeah, it's either that or I'm gonna start, like, putting ads in the newspaper and letting kids kill hands. But, yeah. Anyway, long story short, anybody knows anything about getting rid of turkeys, let me know. The thing that I say with biologists is like, don't ask micro questions. Ask macro questions.

Yeah.

Because, like, don't ask, what drainage am I going to kill a six point in? It's like, you want those macro trends. Like, hey, where's the big pressure in this unit? Like, where most people, you know, whatever. I like the macro of, like, hey, where are they at in the wintering zones? You can ask, like, summer zones, things like that. You may get good responses. What's another one? I was trying to think.

I always like asking stuff right after seasons, too, right? Like, how to. How'd it go this year? Like, I just want to hear, like, their take on how everything was. I asked the guy this because we ran into him. We're doing, like, a late deer hunt. And I asked him about the elk season that happened, just finishing, and he was like, yeah, everyone who went to the back country did pretty good. If you were on the front country, you didn't do so good.

I was like, yeah, it's good macro.

Yeah. Like, awesome.

Good.

Like that. That helps me understand just, like, general trends of what's happening.

Yeah. Then the other thing is, like, understanding. And sometimes biologists have a better understanding this than just asking landowners, but figuring out which branches are killing big bulls or where they're holding up. Right. Like, hey, do you have any big ranches that just the elk stack on or deer stack on or whatever? Like, you know, because they're going to know. They're going to know that. Like, man, this. This place over here is like, where all of our deer are stacked on. Again, they're going to tell you that because what do they care?

Yeah, you're not going to go on there and.

Yeah, but that, like, that just adds a piece to the puzzle that you should know.

Yeah, I think. You know, it's funny you say that, because I had a pretty good tag 2 years ago in Wyoming. And that's actually like where the elk sanctuary was, was kind of how I developed my plan around it. Because I'm like, yeah, the best bulls and the best quality are going to be there, and they're going to like, you know, they're going to go on to public enough to get after them.

I think it's. I mean, I had this conversation just the other day, and I do think that in Montana, that is so important. Right. Like the. Where the sanctuaries are, and they're always big private ranches and all the, you know, big bulls or that's where they're coming from. That's where they're getting old. And you have to understand where they're getting old to figure out, you know, where where those big bulls are coming from. If you're looking for trophy now, if you're looking for numbers that can play into it, it cannot, like, it kind of depends. That's true. Biologists could probably tell you like, hey, do they ever come off there or do they not come off there?

You know what? I admit one of the toughest things to develop a system around is a unit that's entirely public, and that is all one habitat type. Yeah. Like a fully desert, fully public unit. I had one of these, actually. Zach's dad had that too. And I'm looking at this unit like, how the frick. Like, what, What. Where do you start?

I'd be super curious. What'd you learn from like, figuring that one out?

Okay, so we just were glassing a lot. Like I got. Just driving around, glassing like the.

But from east county perspective, like, it's kind of all the same.

I mean, it was more intel than anything that I could figure out. It's like, okay, where's the water at? That was helpful because it was desert unit. And then you could figure it. Then I'd talk to people, be like, oh, I saw a bull by Eagle's Nest reservoir one time. And I was like, okay.

And.

And it turns out that this intel that I got from someone seeing a bull by this reservoir in July, all of the elk go through that drainage, like, as they migrate in and out of the unit. Yeah. And I, like, kept going back to that area. Cuz, you know, someone, he was like.

I saw a bull there.

And I was like, why? Why did he see a bull here?

Yeah.

And then we picked up a herd. And then I was like, oh. And then we followed them for nine miles. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then the next day there was another herd that was in there, and we Got our hunter on them and he missed. But again, it was just like they elk used that spot. And you don't know that I couldn't have told you that from e scouting, that is. Yeah, I don't know. That's tough.

So I would say I was going to dive into this concept. We were. You. We were talking about this at lunch about a client that you have and we're talking about. I think everyone wants to hunt eastern Montana. They want to hunt the open prairie. Right. And I think anyone who's ever hunted very thick stuff is like, screw the very thick stuff. I want the very. I want the very thin stuff. I want to be able to see. And I'm like, there's, there's a catch 22 here and we'll get into the at bats. At bat. At bats versus trophy. But before that, I do think that, like, to your point, now that I've understand the prairie, E scouting, it gets. It's very different than e scouting say a mountain Idaho hunt. But you kind of learn it and you kind of learn those nuances. A lot of that is distance traveled.

Yeah.

I think when I was. I'll just say Oregon, Idaho hunter. Like I had this perception of how far out go, which was more in Idaho than it was in Oregon. But all of a sudden it's like you have to take that away because, you know that's, that's a silly cute thing and it's like much, much, much bigger. And I think there's two. So we'll circle into the like conversation about at bats. I've used this analogy before. Don't look at what Ryan Lampers does and think that you're going to be successful doing what Ryan Lampers does because he has 10,000 at bats and he can execute on every shot opportunity. And when you look at these, like desert elk, right. Desert elk for the most part are very, very difficult for a different reason in a different way than other, you know, elk in the mountains. And so if you're the guy that's like, man, I really want to get more at bats, I'm going to go out east. I'm going to tell you right now, you're not going to get more at bats. Like, you're just going to be figuring out an entirely different game. That's difficult. Now granted, your odds of killing a big bull are pretty good or much higher because you can see them all the time. But the, the difficulty in tracking a herd of elk like anything over four or five miles gets so hard. Like that is a Very, very difficult task. And completely different that your. Your number of at bats go down considerably. Right. And. And so I think it's work. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just saying, like, just know that it's not all easier. Right. Just because you can see everything. All of a sudden, it's like hunting in, you know, Sonora, Mexico. It's like, yeah, you see forever, but, like, it's still a very difficult hunt for different reasons than big, you know, mountain country in Wyoming.

Well, and it sure seems like that low stuff, like, you're talking about. And I was noticing this while I was glassing. I glass up a bowl, and in this low country, and I'd use my onyx, because your rangefinder can't go that far. Like, you have no idea how far they are, really. And I'm looking across the prairie, and I'm like. I think. And you drop a pin. I'm like, he's 4.6 miles away. Like, you're looking through the spotting scope, and it's like, he's got a good frame. I. Maybe he's got six.

I don't know.

Like, but you just. The. The scale. I don't think people understand the scale, though. Like, you're talking about, Right? Like, looking that far, like, is just a different thing.

Yeah. And just trying to keep up with elk, like, even in the breaks country, like, you know, that breaks country is interesting because those elk are going, let's just say at five miles, dude. And there's a thousand nooks and crannies. I spent. I spent over a week trying to hunt this one bull, and it was like, okay, he went right there. It was like, I got a little bit farther back. It was a little bit. But these elk, you know, and like, that's. That was like, the big aha moment for me of understanding when the elk are moving a long ways. And in coy country, it is, like, almost impossible to keep tabs on them because, like, they just go through these coolies, and it's like, that's 14 different coolies. You know, it's like trying to follow a mouse through a maze. And it's like, which way did they turn? It's just very, very difficult. And I think it takes a lot of days. So I think, you know, as you think about your hunts, think about, like, again, what's your skill set? What are you good at? What do you want to be good at? I think a lot of people say, you know, they want to open country, but is that the skill you want to develop is that the hunt you want to develop? Right? Like, and there's a lot of guys that will tell you, like, I only want to call elk. Like, that's, you know, that's the experience I want. Like, it's just. It's not that. So just. Yeah, yeah, just put that into your head.

Well. And boy, if there's anything I've learned, it's like the big open country stuff, dude. It crushes your vehicles. Like, your rigs just get beat to crap. Like, oh, my God, I know you. How many flat tires do you have this year?

This year? Way more. Last year.

Oh, it was last year. That was the last time.

Oh, dude, I don't even know.

Yeah, I only had one this year, but I also just. Just. It rattles the crap out of your whole system, dude.

Arizona was next level.

Was it?

Oh, yeah. Okay, so we just did 20 minutes of this podcast. We haven't got to the topic.

Okay. I think it was important for us to talk about that though, because, like, we set the stage basically of like, look, because we're going to talk about some specifics, I think, like, more specific than people probably normally hear on a podcast. But it's because we wanted people to, like, get something out of it. But also, like, don't just assume, like, what we say is going to work for you.

Right. And the question, the way you pose it to me is like, was this what you would do or what you would tell people to do?

Exactly, exactly.

Good question. Um, so I'll try to specify in all of those, but we wanted to go through like kind of unit selection. Hunt. I want to say hunt selection, maybe not hunt selection. So like, what states? I think. I don't know, maybe this is not true, but I would say a lot of people are looking at multi state strategies. That's more common than not.

Yeah.

When I started this, like, I was a weird dude because I hunted multiple states. I feel like you kind of have to now. Yeah. And everyone, most people listening to this podcast have a multi state strategy. The old state strategy, old hunt strategy was like the five state system. Right. I'm gonna have five states that I can draw with five points. And I will have a great hunt every year if I tee this up.

That's right. That's right.

That. Does that exist anymore?

I don't know. Well, dude, it's been weird because then you find out, like, this is what I see happening. And maybe you can confirm or deny, get into a rhythm of like the hunt that you really like to do every year that you can do every year. And then all of a sudden like you spend all of your time on this one hunt you really like to do every year. And then you're like, well, how do I fit in these other states? Yeah, like once you get into a rhythm.

Yeah, that, that, that is very true. I would say just wait till you have kids, cuz that's, but that's important. And I think like, you know, I, I man dream scenario. I have two elk tags every year. Like I want one. I mean obviously like September. I want to just like dedicate one the, the season to the just one tag and then either. I love late rifle hunt, so. And maybe I do the right late archery. Like maybe the Utah. We should, maybe we should talk about that too. But anyway, you know, a late hunt, right. Early hunt, late hunt and then like some deer hunts to fill in the, in the gaps. But everyone is so focused on like how do I get a tag every. Like how do I just elk hunt every year? So let's start with how do you elk hunt every year? Okay, well like what's your state you would live in?

Oh, where you would live? Yeah, it's okay. Well, there's only three. Well, I guess I wouldn't live in Colorado just because of, just because of how busy it is. Yeah, I think that would be frustrating.

Right?

Yeah, it's either Wyoming, Montana or Idaho. And I'm biased right now. Wyoming obviously is like the one I would, I would live in.

Okay.

Like, and that's, that's like saying for someone who just wants consistent out action. Right.

Okay. So I would agree. I mean, I'm also biased, so I'll say Montana. Just to mix it up. I. You could live in Idaho too. I think you're gonna hunt elk every year. I don't think the other. The nice thing about Idaho is you get two tags a year.

Yeah, you can. Yeah.

So, yeah, food for thought. You know, get your early hunt. Get your late hunt. Anyway, so at bats.

Wise dude. Okay, so at bats for me. Do we consider cow tags, spike tags as at bat tags?

I would. Yeah, I think so.

Dude. Right now. I was just. Actually I've got a, I've got a client of mine who is so hyped on the spike slash cow tag he did in Utah.

Was it good?

He said it was so good.

Okay.

He said it was his favorite hunt he's ever been on. Like eight years into it or something. He's just.

I, I'm glad to hear that because I'VE talked about it so much. I've never personally done it. You and I have talked about doing it together.

Yeah.

My buddy Josh did it this year.

Oh, yeah.

And he. He went to the unit that Zach had. So Zach o. Had that draw tag or whatever, and so Zach gave him all the pins and everything. It was terrible hunt. Like, they barely saw elk. And I was like, what? And it's funny because it's like Zach was like, oh, elk everywhere. Screaming bulls, like, could honk the horn and a bull would answer you. And so his hunt was terrible. And I was like, oh, man, I feel bad. Maybe those are made way harder than I thought. So it's good to hear that, like, at least.

Yeah, I think. I think that those are legit. You know, it's funny, though, because, like, growing up, I had spike tags in Mount Emily a lot, and they sucked because we didn't know what we were doing. Rifles, bike tags, Both archery and rifle.

I feel like rifle spike tags. No one's ever really done a podcast on this. Like, dude, rifle spike hunting. If you grew up in Oregon, you understand what I'm talking about. But, like, that's an entire sport that's completely different.

It is so hard. It is. I would rather go look for one bull off by himself than try to pick a spike.

Oh, dude, we. We came in a. Out of a unit one time. I almost said the unit name. We came out of unit one time. We went and saw some buddies that were spike hunting in the. In. Yeah, I won't say the.

Up there.

Yeah, up there. And they had, like, nine or 10 spikes. And I was just like, dude, I rolled into that camp thinking these guys were gods. Like, yeah, dude, who are these gentlemen? 10 spikes?

Are you kidding me, man? That's crazy, dude. I can't imagine. Yeah, yeah, we. Because we struggle. I never. I still haven't killed a spike. I should probably work on that. Go get one. Anyway, dude, I really like. I really like the cow. Cow tags and cow slash bike tags, I think are some of the best, especially archery stuff. Yep. Because come rifle season, like, and this is to your point about the spike tags in Oregon, come rifle season, the herds are so freaking big, and they're so pressured.

Right.

That it's, like, not enjoyable. You're just managing, oh, they're on public right now. Or, oh, my God, they're crossing the road. Like, haul ass on your side by side is not the same thing. But I think in September, it could be really, really good. And that's.

I think it's like, you're not learning. You're not learning anything about killing big bulls by rifle Spike hunting. No. Like, at all.

No.

But I would argue that, like, by hunting cows and spikes. We've talked about this before. I'm a huge fan of that. If I didn't live in a state that had a good elk tag, I would be going to a cow spike hunts somewhere else. Yeah. A lot of options there. Again, I think you want to fill your freezer. There's plenty of that.

Dude, have we ever talked about what.

The Jackson meat getters situation.

Just the.

No.

With Grantee. Like, Jackson, Wyoming.

Yeah.

No, we're not supposed to talk about that. Well, we can. It doesn't bother me.

I just found out you can trade in at any tag.

Yeah. And go hunt cows on the.

Yeah. I didn't know if we talked about it before or not.

No, I don't think we have. That's a pretty good opt. It's weird. That is a meat getting suckers. Like, there is just. I mean, it's kind of a shooting gallery when they come through the park.

Yeah. So what's the dealer? You get a tag. You just get any elk tag and then you can trade it.

Yeah. You can trade any of your elk tags in for that.

Unused tag.

Unused tag to go hunt. And they have, like, some. You have to have a permission slip and you got to go do the whole thing.

You got to apply for dates and stuff. And it sounds like it's a whole show.

Yeah. And it's. It's kind of a gong show because, like, when they all come through, there's, like dozen of your buddies up there lining up to, like, take a cow out. And yeah, it can be a gong show, but I do think it's like, to. To put it in perspective, if someone tells me they live in Jackson and like, yeah. Get a cow every year on the refuge, I'm like, okay. Like, you don't really hunt. Yeah. Or on the park. Yeah. Kate.

Just getting meat. What. What's your, like, top cow hunt? I don't think getting meat. I don't think the Utah cow hunts are like.

No, they're not great. Those are good for at bats.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dude. I. I want your opinion on the B tags in one in Montana.

I would say that's probably the best. Honestly.

It's got to be pretty good because those are some dang long dates, like. Yeah.

And like, shoulder season. Like, I. I honestly think you wait till shoulder season. Like, right now. December.

Yeah.

There's ranchers like, and again, like you can find them.

Yeah.

I also think that there's. Yeah. Plenty of killing cows even during season too. Like I think if you want to just. If I had to put elk on the, on the, in the freezer, I'd probably go Montana, Just B tags. Yeah. I don't know what the non resident price on B tags is.

I haven't looked at it. But the reason why I'm not saying Wyoming on that is because the good cow tags, it's a separate drawing that's completely random for cow tags. Unless you want to pay full price for the cow tax, which is a different conversation. You're going to burn your points or whatever on it. You could do that. But the reduced price cow tags in Wyoming have some pretty low odds. Like success rates. No, low odds to draw.

I wish I had my laptop. I want to see success rates too.

Well, it just depends on the one. Like if you have this like really private land specific and they. Right. And people get access to it, it's 100 success. Yeah, but, but because the only people who get the tag are the ones who have access.

Interesting.

It's kind of skewed, but. Dude. But if you can beat the drawing odds on that, like let's say you're getting a tag that's like 30, 40 drawing odds and it's like a unit wide cow tag from October 1st to December 31st. Like sign me up. Yeah, those are fun. Those are really, really fun.

Okay. Best hunts for at bats.

Best hunts for at bats. State wise in a state. And are we talking like something you can draw pretty regularly?

Yeah, yeah.

Dude, I want it like, I like, I like Idaho.

I would not like Idaho.

You don't.

I. No. Well, first of all, they can, they can have that whole system.

Oh yeah, the system of getting attacked sucks. It's horrible.

But like even outside of that, I don't know that I've heard all that. Great. I mean like you're getting people killing elk, but I don't know if you're getting out bats.

You don't think so?

Dude, just general, like let's say general to general. General. Idaho, Wyoming, Montana.

And you could kind of think of Colorado as being in there too, but like.

Okay. Right. Yeah. Right.

So the thing.

Okay, so what's your top five? Let's just say.

Okay, let's say I like this.

Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Utah.

I don't know. Oregon, Utah, whatever. They're all. Because Oregon doesn't technically have Rocky Mountain. No.

Let's go, let's go. Oregon, west coast.

Okay, so here's the thing. I think it depends on your style because if you can't get out of the truck.

Oh, come on. No one listen to this podcast. Is that bad?

Okay, okay, I do. I do like. See, I do like places like Idaho and probably Wyoming.

If Idaho goes to a draw, like a New Mexico style draw. Gosh, you could add New Mexico to that too.

Yeah, you could. But New Mexico's hard to get a tag.

That's fair. That's just like a lottery.

Yeah, I do. So the reason why I'm not over here, like beating the drum on Wyoming is because I do think that the access to the elk is hard enough that you have to think about how you're gonna play that game.

Do you even put Wyoming in that conversation anymore if it's a five point draw?

Not really. No. No, because. Yeah, that's a great point. That's a really good point. And I'm thinking of this like, as a resident who goes every year, it's still like, it's a pretty dang tough hunt. And then you put that in non resident shoes and you're like, oh, I can only go once every 10 years.

I don't know, maybe Idaho is better than. I was going to say Wyoming General, but I don't know if I can qualify that.

Yeah, that was more of like, what I was thinking of is like, you're only going to get a chance to do that and it's once in a while and it's hard compared to what you could get in Colorado or Montana. Montana, for that many points.

And honestly think, like, do you think I think Colorado gets better now that, like, it's not what it is or not, you know, free for all. So I actually don't. I think Colorado could be. Could be better in the next two or three years. That's a slippery slope to say, like, it's a total show. And I would not go there in three years maybe.

And the thing, we were talking about this both times you and I went to Colorado. Like, we saw six point bulls.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, there's elk there. Yeah. It's just whether or not you want.

A ton of elk.

There's a ton of elk there. And then it's just whether or not you want to manage the human part.

The idle thing to me is like, it's not like I don't even apply for the. I don't play the game because there's nothing there. I want to hunt, which is a.

Lot for the General.

For the general.

Yeah.

Right. And a generalist.

Yeah. But you're not nat bats guy.

Agreed. So if I was okay, I would say Montana, number one general elk. Like if I could get that tag every year. Great. Like general and the general. I think that's very underrated on the archery side. Then I'm gonna go. Depends on when I can draw. I would take. Gosh, I kind of want to go Idaho, which I didn't think was gonna be my number two. I don't. Oregon and Idaho are kind of like right there, dude.

I actually think, I think Oregon is much higher than people give it. Didn't give it props for. For what you can draw.

Yeah. I mean you're gonna be shooting. You're gonna be chasing 270 bulls, but like you're still chasing screaming bulls and.

There'S definitely like elk to be had on. Easy. Well, not easy. Yeah, pretty easy to draw stuff. I've actually got a set of guys, a whole crew of buddies, hunting buddies are going to Oregon this year.

Oh, really?

Yeah. I'm excited. Like I helped them pick a unit and they're going east or west. Like the northeast corner. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

I, Yeah, I think on the northeast corner, I think there's a lot of east east stuff. I think some of that central gets a little. Not worth it. Anyway, long story short, I. I would say like it's probably between Idaho and Oregon. Like if I'm really just want abats and. And I want to go elk hunting and I. I can't draw any others, I'm going to map to probably draw Wyoming whenever I can as a general. Again, I don't think I'd be. I don't think I'd be west. I think I'd be. I don't know, I think be south.

Or east for at bats. Yeah, south for sure.

Because you're gonna drive every three years special.

Yeah, yeah, something like that. So then I'm like definitely south. And south has like good elk numbers. It's got the best elk numbers in the state.

And then, and then like year five, I'm going to Colorado.

Yeah. So you can like weed out some of the low tier stuff.

Yeah, I want, I want to like get a good feel like how the whole Colorado thing's going to turn over the next few years, but not so long that the wolves take over everything, which should all be dead by then anyway. But like, yeah, I don't know. That's like, that's. That would be my five year plan from today. I like say Montana this year when I can get it?

Yeah.

If I can't do that, I'm going to go Oregon or Idaho if I didn't get Idaho. So yeah, I would say Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, Colorado.

I like that.

That's my five year plan.

That's a good fight. I like that. I think that's a good way to like. Yeah. To get after it more supposed to argue.

You're supposed to like, no, this is okay. What's yours? The same.

No, no, no, no. The only difference is I wouldn't put did Wyoming or Montana. Seems like it's tougher to get to the elk. Just similar to. Similar to Wyoming. Like maybe that's not the case. Maybe on the west side of Montana where you've got like more road access in the thick stuff. But it sure seems like the elk are at the freaking top in Montana and there's not a lot of ways to get to them other than your lakes.

I think they're at the top early and then they work their way down. And this is because that's a big general rule. Like. Yeah, that's not gonna be for everywhere. But I think it's a general rule.

Huh. I can see that. Yeah. I, I just, I just don't. I. Montana scares me. October, Montana. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Maybe you're right there. Montana scares me as an at bat state just because I think someone could get in over their waiters pretty quick in the terrain. Like really? Yeah, but just. And this is for like, let's just say like a 201, 101 to 201 type person.

I, I could see where you're coming from. Like, is grizzly bears factor into that?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's definitely the same thing about Wyoming. Like I think about Wyoming.

Yeah. Especially on the west side. And actually I guess it's like the same anywhere there's grizzly bears.

Right.

There's also gnarly mountains and like people are probably like, I just, I would hate. Dude, this is one of my biggest fears is a client of mine goes into grizzly bear country, kills an elk where he's too far and not supposed to be, and then like gets eaten. Oh. After I've told him to go hunt this place.

Yeah.

I would really. That's like. Yeah. So that's why when I like dynamic. So that's when I like.

Because like I'm always like, you should go where the grizzly bears are. No one goes there. But like then your buddy gets eaten, you're like, oh, maybe you should have gone yeah, yeah.

I'm. I'm really more. I'm way more cautious about it now. I actually had a. And the other thing is regarding Montana, I had a. Just a friend of mine, like, hit me up. It was a friend of a friend, hit me up for some ideas on where to go in Montana. Told me to go. He was like crossing this creek drainage to go kill a cow. He literally just wanted to kill an elk. For me, as he's crossing the creek drainage, he didn't realize that the snow blows over the cut bank and fell into the creek up to his neck. Yeah. In November, 19 degrees out. He's two miles from the truck. No way. Yeah. So he had to. He figured it out. Like he got to the truck and didn't have hypothermia. Too bad. And like had a change of clothes of the truck, got warm, he was fine. But it scared me a little bit because I'm just like over here thinking like, okay, one of these days I'm.

Gonna send someone somewhere.

Yeah. And they're gonna. Yeah. So I think about my. I think about the advice a lot more cautiously now.

But having said that, like, if I was your client, I wouldn't want. I like, let me make that decision.

Yeah.

So I just. I don't know how you phrase that or like sign a waiver or like, I'm like, bro, don't send me to the. The kitty zone. Don't put me in the kitty table.

Yeah.

Like, don't put me in the kitty table. Where are you gonna go? Like, I'll decide if it's dangerous or not.

That's true.

Because I'd be pissed if you're like, oh, go here.

But there's a ton of people, dude. Just grizzly bears alone. There's a ton of people who are like, I'm not hunting it.

And I'm just like, I'm very aware.

Yeah. I just, Just for folks who don't also, this is. This is like simultaneous folks who are good with hunting grizzly bears. Maybe that tells you something. You should probably consider it. Folks who aren't good hunting with grizzly bears, you're not alone. Like, you're not insane to think that you shouldn't hunt there. You just have to manage the risk.

Yeah, dude. So I saw complete sidebar the other day. There's this. I'll give him a shout out, cuz I love this channel Super Broy. But it's called Big Water Guy and he's on like tik tok and YouTube.

Okay.

And he's like a free diving, like where I grew up. So he's like in the Pacific Northwest.

And he was like, on the coast or is he like in doing a.

Lot of coast stuff in rivers.

Okay.

Like a lot of the places we salmon fish, he's like, I think what it. I just kind of started watching any. He's getting flashers. So like, when you're salmon fishing, you these big flashers and they get hung up and so like, they're. They're pretty expensive. He's reselling them. That's how he makes his living, I think. He's like diving for this well. And he's got videos of like crabbing and then. And I won't say the bay, but like in the b. In the bay. He's like, catching crabs and stuff. And I'm like, damn, I want to go do that. So I sent it to Nash because he's like, into this. Yeah, well, in PC there's the rock, right? And like right off the pelican bar, and they were down diving for lingcod. And he's diving for lingcod and the man in the gray suit comes swimming by. So great white shark swims like right next to him.

Oh, no.

And I was like, you. You know, I was like, I. When I was watching it, I was like, man, I want to go like, I've caught all. I've caught lingcod right there before. And I was like, that looks epic. And then you see the. The great white and you're like, maybe not. Maybe not. You know, maybe not. But I'm like, is that how people look at. At grizzly bears?

I bet you.

Because like, I look, I was like, ah, pretty small odds. This guy probably views sharks. He's been in the water a thousand times and never seen a shark. See one one time you're like, odds are pretty low. Like. And this, you know, shark went away from him, but from the dude on the outside who's never been in the water is like, nope. Never. Nope. And I think that's how a lot of people look at grizzly bears. They're like, yeah. Nope, you're probably right because statistically, like, how many great white shark attacks were off the coast of Oregon last year? Probably none, right? In the last 10 years, how many dudes got eaten by grizzlies this year in Montana? Like 10.

Yeah. Yeah.

So. So, like, statistically, way more dangerous to be poking grizzly bears. And I wouldn't think twice about going into grizzly bear country. Even where these other dudes got Schwacked.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I hunt a lot of that stuff, too. And I think the other piece of it is once you have, like, an encounter or two, you get confident. You get confident. And I actually was talking about this this year because I had a pretty good encounter and I was like, cool, man. Like, I was able to keep my crap together, you know? And I'm like, got this. I got this. And I was like, wait, that's the bat. That's wrong. Don't do it. Don't get comfortable with it.

You get comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

We got on a. We got on a tangent just because we're like. Okay. So, yeah, the elk hunting. Elk hunting aside, like, we. I graded things on a curve because of grizzly bears and, like, country.

Right.

But if you. If the. If grizzly bears and terrain aren't a factor, then Wyoming and Montana are, like, at the top for sure.

I would. I would agree. Yeah, I agree with that. Okay. Trophy states.

Okay. Dude, I have not seen a big. Like, a big, big bull come out of Wyoming in. In a few years. I'm trying to think at least three years.

I feel like their average is kind of going down. Yeah, I saw a big one this year.

You did see a big one?

Yeah. I'll show you the picture. Okay.

Yeah.

Well, other conversation. But.

But just on the average, man, I'm like. I'm not seeing.

I feel like Arizona is producing giants.

Arizona's cranking. New Mexico's cranking.

Nevada's cranking.

Nevada's got some good bulls. I think Nevada has some issues with bull staying intact because it's so dry.

So does Wyoming.

But, yeah, Wyoming's bad. Yeah, but that's why. That's why I said, except for, like, the mountain. The good mountain units, dude.

Oregon's producing some giants, too.

Oregon's doing really good. But that's in. There's, like, premium stuff, right? Like, the premium units. Really, really good stuff.

Yeah. Okay. So you have FU Money.

Yeah.

You get any three hunts in the world.

Okay.

For elk only.

Okay.

So bribe any official. You can do it. Okay.

So I was telling you, and this is for me personally, one. I want to. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say units and stuff, too. I'm gonna archery hunt Mount Emily because it's where I grew up, and I've never. I, like, want to freaking have that experience. And there's some dang good bulls and you can glass and call. Like, I think you get both options of experience. I think that's really cool. And but understanding like a 380 inch bull is probably not happening right? On the average. Other than that, dude, I had a. I had a good friend of mine do an Arizona September hunt. And that sounded like an absolute blast with like, the quality to make it like a dream hunt. And then I did a late. I would do a late rifle hunt in Nevada.

Yep, yep, yep.

Those late rifle, like November, December hunts in Nevada where you can glass like crazy. That. Yeah, that's fun. I'm into that. Okay.

I'm gonna go like, super random, I think the Pennsylvania tag.

Whoa. Okay. Left field. Yeah.

I don't know. Like, there's some giants out there.

How would you hunt it? Just like September, like September style where you're like calling.

Yeah.

Moving and calling. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then I was over here, like, you gonna glass some cornfields up for like.

No, dude, it's all. It's on the. It's on forest.

Like, is it?

Yeah. Okay, then I'm going to Texas. Oh, yeah, there's some giants coming out of Texas.

I've seen some good bulls come out of Texas, but I haven't seen it.

Yeah, some giants. Cool. Texas. Just to do something different.

Deserty stuff. Desert.

Like. Yeah. I mean, dude, Mongolia is pretty high on that list. But we won't. We won't go there.

Yeah, we'll keep it continental with us.

Continental, US but then if I could have any go. Dude, it's really hard not to take like an Arizona tag. Like Arizona, Arizona. I don't know if I take like a governor's tag and go July, August, like everyone does. I don't know. That's kind of a cool experience that you never get. Like, if you're like, hag at whatever giant Velvet Bowl.

Yeah, that'd be really, really cool. That'd be really good. And I actually this. It was a weird situation. A guide from New Mexico came hunting with his dad, who was the client on the guided hunt this year.

Yeah.

So I got a lot of New Mexico intel. Just five days hanging out with these guys. Right. And he helped guide a gov tag guy. It was like a 412 bull or whatever. And just. And it was just like that caliber in that kind of open country. God, that looks fun.

Yeah.

And he was. There was only four guys on that team. He was like, I think we were the smallest team of guys ever to.

Guide a. Oh, really?

Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah, it would be really tough for me. And I'll take the Orion Gov tag for the same principles that you went on to Emily. Yeah, it's like old stomping ground, too. If I could have an Oregon Gov tag, that'd be great. That'd be pretty. Pretty awesome. Dude, the Nebraska hunts look cool.

I don't know about the Nebraska.

We were talking about giants out of a cornfield.

Yeah. Well, it just is, like. I don't know. It's not gonna. You can't make that one much of a physical challenge.

The PA one's probably that way too, though.

Yeah, that's true.

I don't know.

I like that, though. Yeah.

So if you can have one governor's tag, what state would it be?

I like. I like Nevada. Nevada's like, style. I just like that type of a hunt. After being there couple times, I was like, oh, yeah, I get it. Like, it's just so glassing intensive. But you can also figure out some zones that.

Yeah, that would be a good one.

Yeah.

That late hunt. That late hunt looks really fun.

Yeah. I mean, I was there in October and was looking for deer, and I was like, only finding big bulls, and I was like, this is sweet, but also, like, kind of annoying. Yeah. It was cool, though. And I was like, it was only. It was like October 22nd to the 26th. I was there. Not even that late. It's not even that late. And I was finding bachelor bulls by themselves, and I was like, this is pretty sweet. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah. I don't know. There's lots of hunts. I. Do you still think that there's plenty.

Of opportunity for just going and killing elk?

Yeah.

Yeah. Man. I don't know if you're like, so much for. For just killing one. Yeah.

For killing deer is not so much.

Oh, it just depends, man, on what you're. Because, like, you could go and pick up crummy tags every year. Like, same with elk.

Yeah.

You go pick up, like, just killing one tags. Yeah. You know, even Colorado, I mean, you still have.

Dude, Colorado deer numbers look like garbage.

I feel like at least they're, like, big.

The success rates and numbers are just like down into the right.

But I. Yeah. And then now they're going to enter a new structure. But that new structure also is going to make it so that people can kill elk more easily. It sounds like.

Yeah, it's. I don't know if I want to say it fast. I don't care. The. I don't think I'm gonna do it, but I do like some of the changes coming to the first season rifles. And I think, you know, I. It's really gonna be Hard to tell. This gets into that conversation about like archery hunts, you know, like, do we choose that as number three or five or whatever. But honestly, holding on to Colorado for. I want to see what they do with that first season because like that October 10th date, their 12th date or whatever it is like coming up, like, I think it comes down as it goes. That could be a good hunt. There's some good hunts there.

Yeah. And everyone in Colorado who is like down for the backcountry stuff always like talks about the first season being the one to have for rifle. Yeah, like rifle hunters, they always are like, first season, it's.

If they could make it. Not a show.

Good luck.

I mean like, yeah, like that's kind of the name of the Colorado. But like, gosh, if, like. Yeah, I think if there was any hunt that was like had low number, any kind of. I wouldn't even say low numbers, just like normal numbers, like tag wise, it would be a 25 point draw because they got so many points stacked up.

Yeah.

You know, that's the problem. And so like, I really want to see what. Because now you have all these guys that have to use points to archery hunt. And I'm really hoping that drives the point down. I don't know if it will.

I could see it doing that though. For sure.

I hope.

I guess it just depends on how many tags I give out and like how many people can pick them up. Second choice. So like in Oregon, this is a good example. Oh, Oregon just did this as like a. As an example of something of a state to look at because they just went the bulk of their archery to over the counter tags are now draw.

It's all east. The whole east side.

The whole east side, right. Yeah. And what happened was. And I was just talking to these boys about this the other day. The first year that it went to a draw, things were harder to draw because people with 1, 2, 3 points had to throw in their points.

Oh. So then it was like a big deduct.

It was a big. Yeah. So first year it was like dudes.

Had five points and they're like, you know, I'm still going hunting. Yeah.

And so like catching the two points to draw and then it took zero points to draw.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

So when. How long has that been? That was not last year. Year before.

So we've had two draw cycles of it.

Right.

In Oregon.

And so you feel like it's leveling back out.

It's leveling out. So the first year things spike because people in the like Low points have to. They're like, well, screw it, I'm just gonna go hunting. But then they clear out and then you've got low points from then on.

Interesting. So you think Colorado will be the same?

Yeah.

Based on that.

Based on that, yeah. Right.

What is the best year then? So you like wait a year or two.

Well, it doesn't make sense if you wait a year or two because you're accumulating points at the same time.

Yeah, but if the people are going to cash out the first year.

Yeah, but this is only if you're like sub 5 points, I probably say, because anyone.

Well, here's what's going to happen though. So if you go to Colorado, say I put in for a tag and, and you see this in Wyoming too. But like you, you see like last year it cost xyz. That doesn't mean it's going to cost the same next year.

Yeah. Yeah.

And some of those go down. Some of them, like, like there are ones in Wyoming that'll randomly pop like a zero point draw.

Yeah.

Because no one, like whatever, no one put in for it or whatever. And so they'll boun. So you could see Colorado, you know, even though it says five point draw, it may not be. It's probably worth applying for it because it might go down after that one year bubble.

I just did like on the Hunt west channel, I did like a Wyoming overview and I said the same thing. Like if you're, even if you're not at that point level, you should apply for it if you want that tag because it could bounce.

Do you think, do you think I was thinking about this? Do you think it's strategic? So say there's two hunts you're on the verge of the one that has, you know, certain amount or lower. You, you always see this where like I'll apply and it's like, well, this one has a little bit better points or it's like a 6% versus 5% but then everyone goes for the 5%. So then they flip.

Yeah, that totally happens. Yeah.

Because it's like, oh, like this one's a little bit better or 6% draw odds. So like everyone puts in for that one.

That's actually, that's always the case in like the sheep and moose in Wyoming.

Yeah. Because they just flip because whatever the.

Best one is or the best drawing odds is, is not the best drawing odds the following year. So you gotta follow it.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's, that's my point. It's like never put in for the One with a little bit higher odds. Because everyone does that.

Yeah. Especially on, like, the good. The really good stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the other thing to watch out for. Why in Wyoming, Random odds. Like, just look at the random mods.

Like, dude, like 68 random odds of drawing the south region in special last year.

Really?

Yeah. I mean, it was better than a coin flip that you're gonna go hunting without any points.

That's crazy.

In the south region.

Do you think that happens again?

No, no, no. Because. And this is the issue with Wyoming, there was another tag that they introduced late. It was an archery only tag. And really good. One really good unit. And it went for no points.

Really?

Yeah. And actually I had a guy do that hunt too. It was perfect. And so he was the only one that drew.

Well, I've learned this is why you put in Wyoming, because Wyoming is so early. They add tags after and then you can edit your.

Yeah. Modify that thing around.

So if you don't put in, then you're out of the game.

But anyway. Yeah. And I had it and I was just like, that went for zero points this year. That should be a 10 point unit. Like, that should be a 10 point tag. No doubt.

That's crazy.

And so we'll just see how it jumps this year. But if anyone looked at that on the draw schedule this year and I was like, what can I draw for 0 points? And then put that on the filter on, go live, and then next year.

It'S gonna be like 0.1.

They're gonna be. Yeah, they're gonna be so bummed. This is where, like, some of the insider intel, like, just. You can't replace it.

Oh, well, that's why you follow the Hunt west newsletter, because you always put that stuff out. I appreciate that, dude.

Okay, so this is the thing that I'm. I get a lot of people asking me about Montana and stuff. And like, I know enough to be dangerous. Right. Especially because, like, if I were just talking about teaching them a system to, like, e scout and find elk. That's fine. We got it. I don't feel like Montana has the draw. You don't play the draw necessarily as much.

What do you mean?

Like, I don't get people asking me, like non residents asking me, like, man, should I be picking up a, you know, this tag or that tag? It's like everyone just does general.

Yeah. And honestly, the general, like, there's general. I would consider it. It's more like Oregon. Well, Oregon used to be where it was like, general and very Specialty.

Right.

And so you have for the most part. And Sean would tell you, like Sean told me a couple. I mean, it was last year. He's like, I think the General is the best tag right now because like those specialties got so much pressure and so much attention that like they have kind of come down and like you. You get this like flip, right? And there. It's not that all of the General is better. It's that like there's pieces of the General that are better at certain points than some of these specialty. Now, they're never going to be better than the bear paws, but like, by and large, you're like, okay, you know, I'm going to put in for a hunt in Montana. It's going to be like bear paws, elk horns, you know, the breaks.

Yeah.

You know, southeast. Like, whatever. All these guys are like putting in for these like little pockets. Right. But they're kind of unique specialty hunts or like extreme points. By and large, you're looking at general units, like as a bulk, you know. Got it.

So it does seem like Wyoming has a lot more options in the middle.

Yeah.

Tier.

Remember how Oregon was like all their states and then like the three up in the corner. Yeah, that's like that. That's Montana. Right. It's like all other state. All the units that are mostly good.

Yeah.

And then these three, like really, really hard to draw.

Okay.

So that's kind of how Montana is too.

That's a good way to put it. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Because everyone. Yeah. I like advising on the. On Montana general hunts because they're pretty. I mean, elk are doing elk stuff is really easy to figure it out. But at the same time it's.

Dude, it's funny because like people and there are pockets and I think there's pockets that draw people. And I've talked to a number of people. Like I think 410 and the gravelies. You know, the reason I east out of the gravelies is because it's like it is the non resident. Like that's where non residents go.

And I don't like.

I mean, yeah, like, whatever. It's just like they get sucked into these two places. Like I don't know how many times I got a dm, like, hey, I'm looking at some Montana units kind of thinking 410 or the. Like, I think it's 323 or whatever. Like 322. And I'm like, dude, I like, why does everyone. Yeah, every single hunter. And I was Like, I don't how at least three or four times a year I get that DM. Like, hey, I'm thinking about the gravelies are 410.

I'm like, everyone. Yeah.

So it's like I try to steer people away from those.

Yeah.

I don't know. Like, I think it. I think there's things that stand out when you start looking at units. And I think some of these units back to the. You know, you made a comment when a unit looks all the same, it's easy to overlook it. It's easy to, like, not understand it. And I think sometimes that happens too, with like, heavily motor vehicle use. Like, there's not something people can like, just stand out and say, oh, that unit.

Right.

I. I mean, I. When you start really looking at units, it's easy to like, oh, there's really a lot or there's not very much.

Yeah.

And so people always come to me and like, it's very clear. I don't know. You see this as well. But when they start e scouting, they're looking for something different. They're looking like something that'll like, set that unit apart. I don't know if that's the. The best strategy.

No. Like, correct me if I'm wrong and actually, I want your opinion on this just in general, but like, I actually. It doesn't matter to me. The unit. Just give me the unit and then I'll figure out where the elk are in the unit.

Yeah, it does. 100.

It doesn't matter to the unit.

Yeah.

As much.

But like, sometimes, like, these guys will be like, hey, what do you think of. I don't know. One, two, three. And I look at it and I'm like, I'm starting to. I'll just escout it. I'll spend 20 minutes. I was like, I can I see what they're. They're like, they're trying to find something different. And a sea of a hundred different units. This stood out to him for a reason. And it depends on the guy. But like, a lot of times, like, they'll find this little back country. But I'm like, that back country is not enough to. I mean, like, there's kind of two drainages in this whole unit. Like, you're like, it's not.

You're like, you're gonna go there and there's gonna be like five of your clothes. Yeah.

Yeah. There's gonna be 10 trucks at that trailhead. 10 trucks at that trailhead. That's the entire unit. You know, I don't know, maybe there's some details in there, but like for the most part, you know, they're kind of all focused on these little small things. I guess my point of that is like don't overlook the units that seem like they have nothing special.

Yeah.

Oftentimes that's the thing that's special.

Yeah.

Right. Like certain thing entire like you look at, you know, that's entirely green, it's all national forest and there's purple all over it. Like it's got roads all over. No one knows how to escout that.

It's very hard, right? Like very hard.

It's very hard. And no one does. And no one hunts it very well. No one hunts it very hard.

Yep.

And the guys that are there just driving around, you know, I was like, to me that's more interesting. Like that's what I see when I look at a map versus like the. There's three trailheads and there's two big drainages that are north, south and you know, like I just like seen it too many times.

My, my brother's brother in law. I'll just call my brother in law, I guess him and his dad. Dude crush an organ unit. That is just like what you just described. Like they do very well in it. And I'm like, I looked at it on the map multiple times. Like how the heck do you even like figure out where to start? And they just know it well enough so they can.

Right.

They've. They've hunted it for years. But yeah, it's the same thing. Once you figure that out though is when you have a spot you can go back to. Yeah.

Yeah.

Or like a unit you can go back to. Don't get so focused on the spots. Right. That's the. Let's.

Yeah. Just don't look. I mean looking for things that are unique or maybe not unique.

Fair enough.

All right, that's the pod.

Cool.

Later. Alrighty guys. Thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100% free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.