How to Get A Tag Every Year with Brian Lueddeke of the Twilight Hunters' Podcast

Foreign. To the Hunt west podcast, here's your host, Jaden Bales.

What's up everybody? In this episode, Brian Ledecky of the Twilight Hunters podcast brings me on to talk about getting tags, making hunting plans, and understanding the Western tag systems. We also talk a lot about budgeting for a multi state strategy, how to start with being really good at hunting, one state, and so much more. Brian also asked great questions and dug up a few of my favorite hunting.

Stories while we're at it.

I hope you enjoy this show and thanks to Brian for letting me hop on his podcast with him. Go check it out if you haven't.

Heard of it before.

Before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to give you all a quick heads up. I'll be off the grid from August 1st through the 9th, chasing blacktails in Alaska with my brother and my buddy Jeff Lund. If you've got hunting planning questions, don't sweat it though. My virtual AI hunt mentor is live and it's ready to help out anytime@huntwestplanning.com just scroll past the header and there's a button right there on the homepage to access it. My AI buddy is trained on all the same strategies, terrain knowledge and hunt planning principles I use with my one on one clients and it's just available 24 7.

You can ask it things like what.

Elevation should I glass at in early September in Colorado? Or what should I do if I find a herd bedded on north facing slope at 2pm? Or even what kind of boots do you recommend for my wide foot for mule deer hunting in October? A user named Jacob emailed me the other day saying he'd been asking it a ton of questions while e scouting and scouting an over the counter unit in Colorado.

He also sent me photos of some.

Bulls that he found and said he found 150 different elk and upwards of like 30 bulls or something with the information that the AI hunt buddy was giving him.

So it's working for him.

I think it can work for you too, whether you're e scouting, you know, planning your packing and your backpacking trips, or just doing boots on the ground scouting. Fire away with real hunt questions with my AI hunt buddy and it'll help you work through the how and why of western hunting. Again, that's HuntWestPlanning.com just scroll past the little header and there's a button there to access it. The AI version of me is in service even when I'm not, so give it a try. All right, now let's get into this episode.

Good.

How are you, buddy?

I'm doing good. It's been a. It's been a busy day, so I'm excited to sit down and chat with you for a bit.

Yeah, it should be good. Things are a little bit messy in my world right now. We've just moved into a new house and we're like setting up televisions and. Oh yeah, putting a gear on the wall. I mean, just. Yeah, yeah. So. So you'll see there's just kind of stuff everywhere at the moment, but. And I don't have an office set up as of yet either, so we're still working through it, but.

Oh, that's no problem. Yeah, I. I rock the guest bedroom. So I get out.

I guess that's where I'm in the basement bedrooms at the moment. I'm gonna sort through where I'm gonna do this going forward, so. So I did send the outline basically. Kind of what I wanted to. To focus on was the point systems and how kind guys can get a tag, especially guys that are in my age group and. And potentially older because it's. It's a thing. I didn't get started into some of this stuff until way later in life. Wish I had known what I knew. Knew then what I know now.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's some kind of interesting threads to pull on that. That topic too. So I'm think. Yeah, for sure.

And I listened to you had a podcast with. Who was it? It was just last week.

Oh, was it with Weston? Yes. Huh.

The east coast guy from Michigan?

Yeah, yeah.

Or Wisconsin, wherever he was from. I did listen to that. And so what's interesting is a lot of what we're going to talk about, he actually covered in that. So if you're all right with it, I was going to reference that.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, reference it. Reference it if you want. Or we could talk about the same things because I have the memory of a goldfish man. So I would probably rem.

All right, no worries. Because you're going to put this on your. On your content. Your as well.

Correct. Yeah, if you. If you're all right with that, I would. I would love to. Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't want it to be redundant for your. For your show. Does that make sense?

Yeah, for sure.

So we'll cover some of the same stuff, but I'll kind of gloss over a little bit because you covered a truckload in that for guys coming from the, you know, different areas of us. So.

Yeah.

So if you're ready. We just get going anytime you're ready.

Yeah, let's do it.

So introduce myself to you. My name is Brian Ludicke. I'm a police officer in the city of McCall, Idaho. 24 years at it. I'm going to retire next year. So hunting is my thing. And I started this little show just for guys my age to kind of go through some of the trials and tribulations and some of the stuff that we experience at this age. Trying to stay in shape, trying to get a tag, trying to, you know, all the things that go with it. Life and family and kids and now grandkids, etc. So we've been kind of going through some of those things that's just been the impetus behind this and the methodology, so.

Oh, that's it, man. And congrats on, you know, 24 years doing what you're doing. I'm glad there's guys like you out there doing it.

Yeah, it's been a good career. I'm getting ready. I'm ready to, to hang it up.

Though close, I would imagine, I would imagine you're like b. Was being at the end of that rope.

Find me a part time job to pay for my hunting habit and I'll be good to go.

There you go.

Yeah, man. So how about you?

That's great. So I grew up in northeast Oregon on a, like on a farm. My grandparents farm mom was a single mom and so we spent a ton of time out there. So luckily grandparents, they just kind of let me run around with a BB gun or then a.22 and then a shotgun and then a rifle, you know, And I've been hunting for a long time, long time compared to my age. And then I went to college. And after I went to college I realized like, oh, I don't have just like the old family haunts to go do. I gotta go try to learn different things and fast forward a little bit. And I followed a guy out to Wyoming and I realized, you know, I knew Wyoming was this place where there was all sorts of hunting opportunity. And then I was like, well, dang it, I'm gonna make good on it while I'm here. I didn't know how long I was gonna be in Wyoming or not. And, and I just got, I dove in deep. I became really good friends with a guy named Cody Rich, who has the Rich Outdoors podcast, whom I follow for a bit. Yeah, he, he put out, he's put out some really good content. And in 2019 we did this, we called it a 201 Elk Hunter series. Like where I had been struggling to get an elk with my bow. And we created this whole series about it, and he mentored me through it. But that was kind of the launch into working in the hunting industry. And also that kind of sparked something that then sent me into the rest of my 20s, basically diving as deep into Western hunting as I could go. It was reading books or interviewing guys or just talking to people that I would run into. I also worked in the conservation world, so I just went deep, man. It was my whole life for the last, I don't know, 10 years or so. And so. Yeah. And. And in doing that, I ended up helping some people on hunts and started guiding. And now I run a planning service, kind of like a travel agent for hunters. That's my own. And then I do some guiding in the fall. So it's been a long road to here.

Yeah. And Jaden, that's where you and I kind of connected. Was off of the. The hunt. Was planning, because I. Planning a trip. Full disclosure, I'm planning a trip, and. And I'm going to be using deer service to do some stuff here with my daughter for. For next year. So that's what kind of got this ball started.

Yeah, I. I appreciated you reaching out, man. I just. I. I think I feel really lucky that I started doing this stuff for fun just because I. I really like helping people out and, like, I help. I think I told you this in a message. I was like, man, I just want to make sure you get good information, like, to go have a good hunt with your kids, man. That's like. Some of my best memories of all time have been through hunting, and I realize it's. It's a vehicle for a lot more than just going and. And doing the thing.

Yeah. I mean, you get to do it with your kids, especially as adults now. It's. It's a whole. It brings a whole new meaning to it for me. So.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that's kind of where we're at. But so one of the. The basis of today's show was basically I wanted to go through and talk to you about tags specifically and how guys my age. We'll start with that. Can obtain a tag every year for wherever they want to go. I'm fortunate. I live in the state of Idaho, so I can get resident tags. But Idaho, there's other places to go, and there's guys that live in California or Washington or back east. They have to apply.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, for sure. And especially for elk hunters. Right?

Yes. As you get older, if you didn't start the point system. Like, I didn't the point system in Colorado. Some other places, you know, start in the 1990s. I didn't understand what that was or even what the process was to obtain a tag.

We.

We hunted Idaho.

Yeah. So, dude, it's funny. It's funny. So I think Oregon's preference point game is somewhere in the mid-20s. And I was talking to my grandpa when I was visiting him in May. He still lives in eastern Oregon. And he's like, man, I just don't know why I haven't drawn for a few years. And I was like, grandpa, are you buying points? He's like, what's that? I'm like, dude, this has been. He's like, well, I could just go every other year or something. And I just assumed. And I was like, dang it, grandpa. Like, we. He's still never learned the system.

Yeah.

And you know, the, the unit he grew up in, he still loves to go back and archery hunt elk in it. And he just found out about the tax system. So it's not like, it's not like. It's super common knowledge that every single person who hunts has to have this information because I think that that kind of underscores the point that there's a lot of opportunity hunts too, that, that don't take 20 years to apply, you know, and get the tag. That's the stuff I focus a lot on. Yeah, that's.

That's the big thing. Right. Because I'm 50. I turned 54 yesterday. So.

Happy birthday.

Hey, thanks.

So.

So for me to get a 20 year tag puts me out at 74. You know, I mean doing the odds game or may not make it that far. You just don't know.

Right.

And so we want, I want to get guys that can get a tag, go someplace, have a great hunt and, and go from there. I'll give you an example. I drew a tag in Utah in the south central part of the state in kind of a nothing, nothing there unit for deer.

Elk.

For deer. Yeah, for deer.

Okay.

Kind of a nothing, nothing unit for deer. You know, pretty low success ratios. You know, not, not super high buck to dough ratios. Not a giant population of deer. But my God, what the hell? I drew it all the random.

Oh, nice.

Yeah. So I went down there, I did the research, I figured it out, I went down there and shot a really gu.

Nice.

So I want guys to be able to do that.

That's. So that's definitely the, the way to go. It. It's Just part of it is just getting in the game and realizing like there's, there's a. Especially where there's a random element and, and trying to play those odds to pick up a random element. So a state like Wyoming or Utah has that piece going on. And for instance, I had a friend of mine, he just left Wyoming and he was like, dude, I just, he went back to Colorado where he's from, and he was like, man, I always wanted to hunt a pronghorn tag, but I didn't get a chance to do that while I was a resident. What can I do now? And I was like, all right, brother, let's look at the random odds. And hunt that we found for him was a good, like kind of mid tier hunt that was. It didn't take a ton of points to force the draw, but it also wasn't easy to get. And I saw that he had like 20 something percent odds in the random and I was like, dude, try this. And he's going fronghorn hunting this year, like the first year without waiting.

That's freaking awesome. Because that, you know, that makes it all worthwhile, right? Guys like me are not going to have a ton of points. I think I have six. So I'm going to buy my point this month. So seven, Seven Wyoming points, I think.

Yeah.

You know, and I want to go hunting. I, I don't want to just sit on points. It's not my, my goal.

Yeah, exactly. I've had this challenge with my, you know, original home state of Oregon trying to go back and burn my deer points. And I keep going, like, ah, do I maximize the use of this tag? Blah, blah, you know, I've got 10 points or whatever. Like, what do I do? What do I do? And I continually come back to the fact that I'm like, I'm probably going to bring a family member or one of my best friends, like, into a really low point unit and try to time it up so somebody else I know can hunt it the year after and try to help somebody else, you know, based on whatever knowledge I gain. I think that's so much. You know, we get so tangled up in like we've been applying for so long, so we must be guaranteed this certain outcome. And every experience I've had is just like, even when you're in a quote unquote, like, good unit or like an incredible unit, like some of them that I've had the pleasure of guiding, it's like, still hunting, man. It's still hunting. It can be brutal.

Yeah, I Lived in one of the best deer hunting deer units. We just moved out of the area, but I've lived in unit 22 in Idaho.

Oh, nice.

Okay, so if you're familiar with that unit, it's a, it's a draw only in Hell's Canyon. And it's a, it's a rut hunt. So it's the 10th to the 24th of November, and I see good bucks in there all the time. But you still hunt them.

Yeah, yeah.

You still have to go find them. It's not easy.

And it, and it seems like everybody who waits that long, just like that much time, builds this pressure, this. Whether it's due or undo. Like, I have a friend of mine, he hasn't been waiting that long, but he has a 270 Montana tag. Like the best Montana deer too.

Yeah.

And he's over here. Like, he just, he's gone scouting twice and he's over here like, man, just, should I wait for 200 inch buck, blah, blah, blah. He's like, I don't Even know what a 200 is deer looks like. And I'm like, dude, don't. Just, just, just go see what's out there first. Like, just go experience the place.

You know, Hunting.

Go hunting. If you see a buck that makes you happy, like, go do that.

Bingo. That's my thing.

Yeah.

I'll find something that crankshaft tractor and go. And go do that.

Yeah. And if you don't find something like that on one of these crazy special hunts, then. Yeah, exactly. It's no big deal.

You're better for the experience.

And you've got to hunt a place that not a whole lot of people do get behind. And that's special in and of itself. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about the application process. That of itself. Yeah. Obviously the resident process is different. So let's, let's focus specifically on a non resident because if you live in a western state, this guy resident tags are good shape. Yeah. But let's go off of, you know, guy in the mid-50s, little to no points, has no idea what the process looks like. What do we, what do we do?

So first I would want to basically ask you, like, are you trying to go in 2026 or 2025? And then I'd also say, like, let's pick a state.

Yeah.

Because you can, you can find, you can find things to fit what you're trying to do. Heck, you could even do it. I mean, It's July of 2025. You could find opportunities to Go hunt this fall. It just might not fit what your dream hunt was in the original, you know, formation of your plans. There's a lot of opportunity out there, and I think that a lot of people are just kind of romantic about what they want instead of being realistic about what's available. So let's just say I, I. If you're a non resident and you're applying in a state like Idaho or New Mexico, it's largely a completely random draw. And so maybe let's like not talk about those two states for a sec because those are the two without point systems. Okay. Every other state it's like, all right, man, let's, let's see what you can get either through the random process of the draw and how you can use points for multiple species to, to start improving your odds. Get yourself in the front of the line, right? So you can look at a state like Colorado for instance, where they just got rid of all of the over the counter elk for archery.

Archery, right.

And, and you can look at the drawing odds. I'm actually not sure if they've come out yet this year, but you can look at those and see where you can actually get what they call like a second choice tag. So you can go on this hunt that has maybe more people out there, but you still get to go and have an experience and have a good chance at getting an elk in this case, or a deer. And you can still build on a preference point for future opportunities for like maybe you go out in archery season one year and then in a couple years you want to be out there in the, the limited first rifle, which is a better experience and maybe more in your wheelhouse. Right. So I think starting by, you know, choose, choose that state, you know, get started in, in the process of like understanding how they do it and then be thinking about the long term. Right. Like it's just building a strategy for not just next year, but for multiple years down the road is where a lot of that comes in, you know, into play.

Okay, very good. So in my particular case, I got into this, the points thing, started really researching other states and it started during COVID for me, just because I, you know, we were still working and we were still working, but yeah, I wanted to get out, do some other things and, and kids were growing up and moved away at this point. Brand new, empty nest. So I started looking at Montana and started looking at, well, what's Wyoming look like? And so I started going to all these websites and researching it and that was when the, my mind Went. And so I started as my, my particular case. My strategy was I want to get in the system for in as many states that I possibly can and then start whittling those down to when, when, what year I'm going to hunt that particular state. So like I points in Montana and Wyoming, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, which at my age probably will never happen, but that's. You never know. And Oregon.

Okay.

So I already checked Utah off the list. I won't, I don't need to go back and do that one again. Although it was fun. But I want to go different places.

Yeah.

See different parts of the US Go places I've never been to.

Right.

So, so that was my strategy. And so I'm looking at, at, at the randoms and I'm looking at the lower point stuff that I don't need a kajillion points to draw attack. So I'm looking and I experience.

I like, I like that if you can have the budget to do that kind of strategy, you know, spread the, spread the field out. I think that really sets you up for a long term. When I say, or let's call it medium term, the next five to 10 years. That really sets you up good man. You know, Montana's like one in every three years to guarantee with some random. You've got Colorado that you can go as often as you want depending on the, you know, if you want to rotate between deer and elk. Wyoming's more in the midpoint, you know, kind of realm that 5 to 6, 7. But you talk about, you talk about being a multi species hunter, which is probably the category I'd put myself in. And it takes like three states and you. I'm. It's books like the next. Yeah, yeah. I'm budget maxed out and I've also maximized the opportunities that I would need for the next 10 years, like but for a long time. And I've actually got a spreadsheet when I started really doing this. So in 2018 I started doing my home state of Wyoming at the time, or sorry I added Wyoming because I moved there in 2018. And then I had Oregon, Colorado and Nevada. I'm a, I'm a deer guy kind of when I go on my own personal hunts, it's usually a deer hunt.

Yeah, me too.

And so I did all of those for $632 that year. I've got the spreadsheet sitting right here. Okay. So it's one of those things like. Okay, is $632 a lot to you? Yes or no? Then like, and, and you also should probably think about how that fits in your budget for the full year, but then acknowledge the fact that some of that stuff comes out at different times. Right. Like a Wyoming elk applications in January. Their deer and antelope applications are due till basically June so that that cost is spread out basically across six months. So it just depends on how you, you want to budget for it as to how many you can really put in there. Right.

And I, I'm like you, I, I'm, I'm looking at deer hunts for me specifically. But you know, if you're a multi species hunter, then you probably have to reign that.

Yeah. Well, and then there's some states that I really enjoy being able to just get preference points for and not having to fork over the money. I'm accidentally drawing the tag.

Right.

Like Colorado and Oregon are two good examples. Nevada, I mean, you can just do points there too. Right. You can just do points in Wyoming and Montana as well. So it's just like one of those things where you just have to adjust your kind of dates and your budget according to what you're trying to make happen.

Yeah. So in, in your estimate, looking at that stuff in, in terms of getting a tag every year, which is the best systems to look into to force.

To force the draw, it'd be like Colorado and probably Wyoming. To force the draw. Yeah. I think, you know, when you look at Montana, it's just complicated enough that it's not guaranteed, you know, but there's a really good chance the way that they structure it. So it's hard to know like I got a Montana deer tag as a non resident this year without ever applying before. And I was like, well, shoot, that wasn't really planning on that. Right. But then obviously then Colorado went and point, you know, the, the whole Point Creek conversation, maybe something we should touch on. But Colorado went and I didn't. And more people hopped in there this year than I had expected. So I didn't get my Colorado tag. So it ended up being okay.

Is that because of the changes they're making for 2028?

You know, I would expect it has something to do with that. Like more people, people were thinking just like me and we're like, hey, let's burn these things before they change the system. Because the way that it's hard, it's hard to.

Yeah. The way it looks for 2020, it was going to benefit people like me.

Yes.

The way I read it, the way I see it, if you want to explain that a little bit as to what's going to happen because not everybody's up to speed.

So I. The last I remembered reading was it was going to be 50 bonus point system. So it's basically like you get an additional raffle ticket into the hat, but it's never guaranteed if you have a bonus point. And then the other 50 will be pure preference like it is now. If you're at the have the most time waiting, then you get the tag. But for guys like, you know, in this case, guys like you who are like, man, I don't think I'll ever have the chance to get to the top of the heap for an area 10 unit 10 tag. I. I'm not even going to try. Well, now there's a world where you could have a chance at getting that tag and it might give you something to have on the. Have on the sidelines as like a. This might happen. I'm not. Yeah, I could. Yeah. And obviously the odds are going to be bad no matter, you know, how the system breaks down because there's just too many people and not enough supply. Right. But it can give you some hope at least.

Yeah. Well, that's kind of like Nevada, right. So Nevada is a, is a wish and a prayer. I mean, even with PI point holders, your draw odds success of a very low.

Yeah.

Of drawing a tag. So. But if I ever did draw, that would be awesome.

Right.

It'd be an excellent good place to go do some deer hunting, so.

Oh, for sure. And we can talk a little more about that offline. I've got some thoughts I, I looking at the odds. I mean, I'm in that six, seven. Let's see. I've seven points this year in Nevada. And like, for archery, there's a lot of tags that I are, you know, just short of the guarantee in their system, you know, I should be able to get. So. Yeah. Just depend. Just depends on what you're looking for out of Clank too. So.

And that's a lot of it, I think for guys and, and there's some, there's some horn hunters out there, you know, guys my age, whatnot. Right. But I think for. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak for a vast number of guys that we just want to go out and have a, A good experience. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Find a good mature age class D or something that's representative of the species and, and have a good time. So certainly I think that's the, the what I'm trying to. With this particular episode. I'm trying to Draw that, that line for guys if you want to look.

For one of the things. Yeah. And one, one of the things, like, for those guys who are like horn hunters, people who like to have like a certain quality of experience when they're out. Look, I, I do too. Like, I get it, but I just understand that I'm not in a financial position or willing to wait that long, you know, like, I want to be, honey, but I was just doing the math and like, I have a friend of mine who he didn't draw where he would thought he was going to this year. And so he bought a landowner tag in, in Nevada. And it was, I think it was $4,500. Yeah. And yeah, I don't have that.

I'm a public servant. I don't have those types of resources.

But I loved, I loved, you know, what you were talking about on part one of the financial planning is like, okay, so if you do set aside 200 bucks a month, right. You know, and you're like, I'm gonna go to Nevada one time, but this is my Nevada budget to buy a landowner tag one day, you know, 10 years down the road, you're looking pretty good, going to have a really good hunt. So it just depends on what those goals are. Right. Like, and if you want to dedicate. And it's. And I loved when you guys are talking about basically it's a lot like losing weight. Everyone knows the formula and that very few people know how to stick to it. So.

Yes, because it's hard, right?

Yeah, it is hard. It is hard.

That's what makes it special though, is make. Is, is that so talking about point systems and, and the different. What's the advantages to the point system states versus the random states and then say, what's the disadvantages of that as well?

Yeah, man. The. In theory, the point system states are going to allow you to force the draw eventually. Like, eventually you will be at the top of the heap and be the, be the first person in line to go on this hunt. You've waited long enough.

Right.

Where that falls apart, though, is when you're trying to maximize your points and so are everybody else.

Right.

And the amount that it takes increases the next year. So that's happened to me three times in Colorado. What you would have to do then, which is actually, I, I, it's the number one thing I'm preaching to everybody else and then I haven't done myself, is essentially take however many, you know, points you're at and the hunts you're looking at. You should be conservative with how, with whether or not you're going to force the draw that year. So I'm at seven points this year. I went for a tag that drew out at seven points last year and it crept up one and I was like, God dang it.

Yeah, here we go, right?

Yeah, here we go. If I'd have just gone and, which is actually what I'm talking about doing with a friend of mine who lives there, I'm just going to go, you know, throw that game plan out the window and go for a, a four point hunt. You know, I'm gonna have four years extra of waiting that I didn't need to wait. But because of the rotation, I've been hunting the whole time and I haven't missed out on anything. So that's, that's the benefit of the point system. Okay. And, and, and again, to, to your point on that, you could, and with the whole point creep conversation, you could end up behind the eight ball on this one particular unit that you want to go to and, and not ever get it.

Yeah. So I have a friend in that position right now in Utah. He's got elk points in Utah and I think he has 23, 22 or 23 points. And every year he puts in it goes up one.

Oh, yeah.

He's been unable to draw this tag. Yeah.

And then there's the other side of the coin, which is the completely random states. Right. And you could go, this has happened to me in Wyoming for years. I wanted to hunt this local whitetail buck tag that is just outside my backyard. And it's a 50% draw. I'm six years in and I haven't ever gone gotten it. I haven't got the 50 drop. So I was like, man, this is not how the odds should work. However, I'm also a lucky tag holder of a cow moose tag this year that was like 3%. So. Oh, congratulations. You take. Thank you. You take the good with the bad in these things. Right. Like some days you're going to be the lucky winner and they're going to pull your name when they shouldn't. And then some days you're going to be five years, six years down the road on a 50% odds and not get your name pulled still. So it just depends obviously how that all shakes out.

And so the, the disadvantages to the random system being just a percent and you, you have no way of, of guaranteeing you're going to get it.

Yeah, there's like this mathematical fallacy and I don't Remember the name of it. But basically people will say like well if it's 50% the next year I'm going to get it. If I don't get it this year.

Right.

It's not, it's not how it works. It's 50% every try, you know. And it doesn't compound on itself. So that's where the random systems, I hear it all the time in Wyoming because our residents have a random system for deer and elk and they'll be like God, I've been putting in for this unit for 20 years and then someone who's a non resident has been applying for 10 and was able to get it. And I'm like yeah, but I don't, I don't want the point game still, you know.

Yeah, I, I think that Idaho's the way their system is going to work for 20, 26 is going to be to everybody's benefit on the non resident side. And I'm hearing some, we'll see what happens with it. But I'm hearing that some of the quota tags even for residents will go that way as well.

Oh cool.

So like the Selway and some of the other elk tags that are hard, that can be difficult to get because of the low numbers of them. Sounds like they might do those as a controlled hunt.

I generally speaking like that and it's probably because I'm most of the time if I'm banking on going someplace I'm going to put in for something in the mid tier or low like low interest type hunts. Right. If I'm like I gotta go, I want to go like this is my year to go. That's, I'm just gonna bite the bullet and go that direction. And you don't lose anything year to year by doing that in a random system, you know.

Yeah. 100 so talking about these different states and I covered and I sent you the outline but covered this is a two part series and the first part was a, was basically financial planning. I sat down with a guy who does financial planning and kind of went through how to save and make this work from an annual basis and then a long term basis.

So that said.

Some of the different states have different rules as if they have require you to pay up front or others you don't. And what's your, what's your take on some of that?

So I, I, I was an economics guy in college and I think when states add more barriers, you know, like having you pay up front, it's going to improve the odds. Right. It's Going to weed out people who can't front that money or maybe shouldn't front the money. Right. And so it can improve, you know, the, the chance of getting the tag. I just think about, like, if Wyoming didn't have you front the fees, I can only imagine, like, how, how much more the demand would be. So I even thought of that. Yeah. Because, I mean, man, you're fronting an $800 elk tag. If you're doing special, it's $2,000 elk tag. Like, you got to front that money, and it's still taking a while to draw these things, which is wild. So that's one. That's the bonus of it. Right. And then obviously the negative of it being that, like, then it immediately stretches your budget thinner at the front, which is not great.

Makes it tougher to potentially put in for other states. I would.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I fell in love.

So, yeah.

When I, the year I drew the Utah tag, I also drew Montana on the random.

Oh, yeah.

And I was like, was it the comp. Was it the combo or a deer combo?

Okay.

A deer license. Yeah, yeah.

Montana's deer license. I, I, that happened exactly the same to me. I didn't expect to get it this year. I did, and it was $831, including the license fee. And I was just like, oh, crap, dude. Yeah. So my, my Colorado, and I'm going to Alaska here at the beginning of August, or. Yes, beginning of August. Colorado and Alaska tags were the same price as my unexpected Montana license. And I was like, oh, shoot. Like, this is. I gotta start digging them to the pillows. I'm. I actually have been selling some of my old clothes, like, on. Online to try to, like, speak together some more. Just hunting money. Yeah. Because I was just like, oh, that was unintentional. So that is maybe the downside of the systems that don't have you pay up front is it's easy to accidentally overspend.

Yeah. So we covered point creep a little bit, but just for people who don't understand it, just what is point creep and how, how bad is it getting?

So point creep essentially occurs especially in these states where you can buy points and you don't have to apply in a world where people are sitting on the sidelines and waiting until they hit a certain point threshold. Right. And then they're jumping in when they do that, let's say they offer 10 tags in whatever pool this is. And, you know, all of a sudden, 10 people jump in who have one point more than it took last year. There's none left for the point level that drew it last. The. The previous season. It's. It can be pretty brutal. Like I said, it. It's got me three times in Colorado because I'm. I'm the worst at trying to maximize my opportunity. You know, I tell everyone not to, but it's because I tell everyone not to because it keeps happening to me, and I should have learned by now. And the first year that happened, it was like I had 80. There was 82% of the people with my point level drew, and I was like, nice, that's pretty good odds for next year. Well, then the following year it was 17% and I didn't draw. I said, dang it. Well, I'll get it next year. And then the season dates changed, and then it jumped to. Instead of two points, it jumped to five for that unit. And I was like, oh, God. And last I looked, man, last I looked at that specific hunt that I'm talking about, it went up to like eight points or something, and it was still further. And I'm half dozen years f past that point. The other piece of the point creep conversation to understand, too, is one of the biggest driving factors of that that happening is also a decrease in tags. So whether it's Wyoming's antelope or deer hunts or Colorado's deer hunts and some elk hunts, like where that big winter hit, they cut a bunch of tags back. Right. That's just going to exacerbate things. As you know, there's less supply and more demand or the same amount of demand. And it just, yeah, makes that. That system work less good. Where it really works nicely is when you have tags are the same, the number of people applying is the same, or the tags are increasing. So one thing is someone who's applying is if you're watching what the agencies are doing, this is why it's really nice to choose one state to pay attention to. But if you're watching what the agencies are doing, whether they're increasing tags or decreasing tags, we can give you a little bit of insight as to what to expect in the draws. Like Wyoming right now largely is increasing their pronghorn licenses after having a bunch of drought and then the hard winter. Last two years have been really good for pronghorn. Um, so you'll see those opportunities increase and draw ability is. Is increasing right now. So that's nice.

That's good. Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

Um, so what's the challenges for old guys getting into these systems?

Man, I think the challenge especially when you get so far down the road of like, you know, getting used to a system or, or maybe not knowing how the system works, you look at these things and you feel like it's super daunting. You're like, wait, I gotta keep track of bonus points, preference points. This state's deadline, that state's deadline, what are they doing? Tags. And that's where I'm always like, man, just take it one bite at a time. Pick, Pick one state and one species. And there's so many good resources on the Internet, whether it's YouTube or it's podcasts, or there's just like filtering services, whether it's like the Onyx service or the Go Hunt or the Eastman's Tag hub, like all these different things will help you sort through it. So go, go try to find the resources that will help you out. And don't just look at the agency website and say, this is too complicated. I can't do this because the agency websites are not very helpful. No.

Terrible. And the books are worse.

Yeah, yeah. Across the board too. It's not just one state, it's just, it's just ends up being so complicated. And they have to, through their legal, legally binding reasons, they have to make sure it's all there at one time. And it's not hard brain processes.

No, it's just like it's mind numbing to try to, to figure it out. And that was my biggest hurdle, was just try to understand. And I made the mistake, I guess, of after listening to you, I made the mistake of getting involved in a bunch of states all at once.

Well, it's, it's easy to do, man, and it's. I still am tempted by the devil on my shoulder to add in other states. This year was the first year I've ever bought any points in Arizona. And I've, if you include my Oregon time, I'm 18 years down the road into points. So, yeah, it's definitely like there's always someone who wants. I have a friend who has a place in Florida and he was wanting me to put in for points for a sandbar hunt off the coast of Florida. I was like, brother, I have to draw the line somewhere. Like, we can't just keep adding these operations. Yeah, I don't, I don't end up. I don't have enough budget or time to do them. So it's important to know where that line is and just be good with that for a little bit. Like, look, three states. Is it right? You know, Wyoming, Montana, Colorado. That's it. And then I'm going to be good with that for five years or until it opens up or time opens up.

And so what I'm doing is I've peeled these states off my bucket list. I. I'm done with it. The kind of thing. I'm not going back in that system, so. Yeah, but I also.

That's what you're saying about Utah too, right? Like, Utah, you probably. Did you see the. The price increases? And that basically was like the last straw, the final straw. Yeah. Yeah.

I wasn't. There was no way I was gonna. I just. I can't. I can't fathom paying that for. For a tag down there. So. Especially living in Idaho. But so what I did check that off my bucket list. So I'm good.

No, that's huge.

So. And then I also hunt Eastern. I'm going to Virginia in November for whitetails. So.

Man, you've got. Yeah. You've got your fall basically perfectly bookended. Booked.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's great, man.

So.

And that's the thing is, like, I, I, man thief is the comparison of Earth. No choice. How's that work? Comparison is a thief. Thief of happiness. That's saying. Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the downside of listening to all these podcasts on YouTube and whatever else. Seeing people do five, six states a year. You're like, oh, well, I. If they're doing that, I should be too. And. Right, man, they're just. You're not making a living doing this stuff. Like, don't put yourself in the same box.

No, it's. It's a. It's a. It's fun. I mean, it's freezer meat and it's fun. Right. So. Yeah. And so I don't hunt elk out of state because I live in Idaho and I. There's oak everywhere, so.

Yeah, exactly. You got plenty of opportunity in the Horn state to fill the. Fill the freeze.

Fill the freezer.

And.

And I've got good opportunities with landover permits and stuff like that for. For cow, elk and whatnot.

For. For.

For freezer meat so I can focus on deer hunting. Yeah.

That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Are you. I'm curious if this is the case with you. Whenever I go out of state, I. I usually am, like, looking for adventure. I'm, like, trying to maximize my time there. And I rarely shoot a deer. I'll shoot deer at home in my home state because it's like, I'll have enough days put in that I'm like, okay, time to get one. But do you run into that, too?

Yeah, I'm all about the adventure. I like to go to different places and see different things and different country places I've never been and kind of do that and then make a trip of it. And then, you know, the. The hunting side of it is. Is the bonus, obviously, but I. I usually book myself out enough time that I'm. The chances of success are a lot higher because I give myself plenty of time to do that. And I'm not looking for, you know, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not Robbie Denning. You know, I. I've shot some nice bucks, but I, you know, that's not my. I want to go have a good time, and I want to find, like I said, a good representation of that, whatever species we're hunting. So.

Yeah, well, that's. That's a recipe for having an enjoyable hunt, no matter where you're at, you know.

Yeah. It's just fun. It's just a good time. So. And I hunt by my. With my kids, but when I'm not hunting with my kids, I generally solo, generally by myself. So on some of these deals.

Yeah.

So to kind of not wrap this up, but kind of wrap up this particular side of the topic was just real quick bullet points for guys and their ability to draw a tag. Like the recipe for success to get a tag in different places and have a good. A good hunt every year.

Step one would be if you can find someone who knows the system, that can break it down really easily for you. Not just the guy who, like, says he knows what is going on, but, like, who can explain it in a way that makes sense. I think a lot of people, especially, like in a Colorado situation, they're like, ah, we just do over the counter all the years, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, okay, well, that's not a strategy for the long term. So if you can. So if. If you can find someone who is knowledgeable and has done it before as a. As a resource, that'd be the first. First step, right?

Like, right.

Be your fastest way to learning the system. I hope that my grandpa allows me to do that for him here very soon. Yeah. Days are getting less and less. Grandpa. I do this for a living, man. What?

Yeah.

Anyway, it's just pretty funny. Anyway, if you can't find a good mentor, good resource, then I would say, you know, find whatever medium that you learn the best in and go get good resources that direction. Just doing a Google search of, like, Colorado. How do I draw a Colorado tag every year? And you'll get either Randy Newberg or Hunt and fool or some other, you know, resource that's put stuff out on the Internet before that will help you break it down. Um, but once you've done that, then I think, you know, you can go into the. The agency's website and start getting a feel for what it's actually like back there. And I would be doing that if you wanted to hunt 20, 26. I'd be starting to learn that stuff now. Now, because that's gonna it every time, man. Someone's gonna put it off. They've got too many things going on. And then at 11:59 on the night of this due date, they're like, oh, crap, I forgot to do that. And I don't know where I'm putting in. And then they either don't put in at all, which continues the cycle of them not getting these adventures they want or they put in for something they didn't realize. I just had a text message today of these boys who put in for private land only pronghorn tags in Wyoming. They didn't realize they're private land only. And I was just like, oh, man. Like, that's. That's not a mistake you want to make because there's no turnback system in Wyoming or anything, so.

So ouch.

Yeah. So just understanding that one again. Just keep it to one state at a time. If you want to buy points in other states before you understand them, that's cool. Wyoming and Montana and Oregon, for example, they all have just a point period where you can just buy points. You don't have to go through the whole application deal. That's a good backup plan for those. Then once you start getting really nerdy into it, you can find little back doorways to get opportunities. Like, Colorado's got their leftover reissue list that's coming up in August. You can pick up tags there. Idaho has one as well, and I picked up a tag on that last year. The other state, Montana, also has a similar system. It's a little different, but I won't get into the details on that one. It's a little complicated. So there's ways that you can find opportunity. You're correct. Even outside of the draws, the formal draws. And I'd suggest people look into those when they're choosing one specific state. Look into what other backdoor methods there are. Into getting attacked.

Getting attacked, Cool. That's. That's good. We guys like us need to Know, because, you know, as we, as we at Olmef, I, I want to be in the field hunting. I don't want to sit on a pile of points and I don't, you know, and I would like to go on some of these, these adventures because that's literally, literally what they are.

Yeah, absolutely. And if you have that mindset like you do, Brian, like I was just poo pooing over the counter tags the other, like just a couple seconds ago. But I sure think there's some great over the counter opportunities while you're getting ready to, you know, go on these, you know, the hunts you really, really want, whether it's a, you can get a fall bear tag in most western states over the counter and they're not usually too expensive. And go learn a place before you go deer, elk, hunt it, make sure it's like what you want. Same with some cow hunting opportunities. Like in Montana, there's a bunch of them, you know, just some different ways to be thinking outside the box. It doesn't have to like we started talking about it doesn't have to fit the romantic view of whatever your dream hunt was right out of the gate.

And we. You talked to his name, Weston.

Yeah, Weston, oma.

The previous podcast, you talked about that and hunting some of that lower land country, different places that wasn't your quintessential elk country, but ended up having a great trip. So that's what, that's the kind of thing we should be looking for. As my opinion.

I sure think so too. And at the end of the day, like, I don't, I don't want to tell every person that they have to have a whole bunch of money to come do this. That's, that's definitely not the case. Understand you're going to be working against, you're going to be working against other factors. If, for instance, you can't pay for access in an area and you want to go right away, or you can't buy a landowner tag in Nevada and jump to the front of the line, like, certainly if you can build the budget and be smart with your finances between here and there, that's going to help open doors for you too. Right. So don't forget that part of the equation along the way.

Perfect some in your mind. So Colorado and Washington, Wyoming are some of the better two to be looking at.

Yeah. Especially, you know, for deer hunters, I'd say. So Montana's got some great elk opportunity and Montana, I would. So if you're a deer guy, I'd say Colorado, Wyoming. If you're an elk guy, I'd say Colorado, Montana. Just in the ease of getting the tag. That'd be how I'd split those two up.

Okay, awesome. How about Antelope Man?

Wyoming is the Antelope State. Even though, like I was saying, tags are quite a bit fewer than they were five years ago. Gosh, there's just, there's a ton of them. If you're an archery guy, then you, then you open up a lot more opportunity. Whether it's an over the counter archery antelope tag in Colorado or an unlimited in Idaho or the 900 series in Montana. There's some really easy opportunities if you're an archery guy to go pronghorn hunting. And I think those get overlooked pretty often. And hopefully me saying this on podcast doesn't do away with that. That's right.

I have a small listenership second and I appreciate it. Most of my, most of my hunting is, is done with some form of a muzzleloader. So that's, that's my, that's my end.

That's why I saw you did a big muzzleloader podcast a couple weeks ago. I gotta go back and listen. I just got a muzzleloader for myself. Um, and I'm excited to, I'm excited to try it out. So whether it's my home state of Oregon or Colorado or Montana. Idaho.

Yeah, Yeah. I have, I've hunts with. That's almost predominantly now. And the, the, the, the on that podcast you referenced, we talking about a buddy of mine who's building my smokeless muzzleloader. So it's basically a 45 caliber muzzle loader, but pushing a 300 grain bullet at 3,000ft per second.

Geez Louise, man. Yeah.

So it's a general rifle hunt. Right? It's not a muzzle loader hunt, but it's a, I'm using that technology to do that and I hunt with like black powder in other places and whatnot. So that's, that's my hobby, dude.

I love that. And that's a, that's, you know, maybe a good final point is like a lot of people enter the game as rifle hunters, like we all do, but the more weapons you can be proficient with, the more opportunity you have. Whether it's. Yeah. Whether it's compound bow. There's states that are doing a lot of traditional archery stuff or muzzleloader stuff, man. It's really. Once you break out of the rifle mold, you can really open up really things.

And that's one of the things that for the muzzleloaders for me to also open some doors that wouldn't ordinarily and truthfully too, it's. It's actually literally opened up some doors because there's some landowners in different ranchers and stuff out there that get inundated during the rifle season. They don't really want anybody out there, but you get somebody with. It's. With a traditional archery or muzzleloader or whatever, and they don't get that very often. They just think it's, it's. It's something different, it's cool. And there's. They're not overrun with them. So I got some doors, some. Some gates opened to me as well from that aspect. So.

Man, I never thought of it that way. That's a. That's a great point. Maybe don't. Don't grow your listenership here. Let's. Let's keep this between us. I'm just kidding. It's. That's a really good. That's a really good point.

Yeah. Because. And you know, it's just. It's just. It's just treated a little bit differently, or at least that's been my experience. So.

Yeah, that's great, man.

Wrap it up. A couple of final questions. Some called snapshot questions for you, if you're good.

Yeah, let's do it.

What's your favorite animal to hunt and why?

Man, Mule deer. I've got one sitting behind me. Yeah. And maybe it's just because that's what I grew up. That was like the first big game animal I shot. And then I picked up a bow and I. This is the first am I shot with a bow. And I just have gotten like, enamored with them. And I know this is kind of weird, but the state of mule deer not being in, you know, the historical highs as what they used to be is actually kind of appealing to me because it's such a challenge to find an older age class one. It's not everyone's doing it. And that makes it really appealing to me to. To go do that challenge. So, yeah, mule deer is kind of what I go after whenever I go on a. On a hunt for myself in particular.

Nice. I am. I'm a mule deer fan as well. I do those hunts as often as I can get a tag. And if. If I'm not hunting mule deer, I'm not whitetail, so.

That's sweet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Whitetails are another one, I think, especially in the West, I'm. I'm getting like I was saying earlier about my tag out my Backyard Like I'm getting the bug to try to get a good.

I have a good time shooting whitetails. If I don't draw a good mule deer tag, that's where you'll find me is in the white tailwoods somewhere.

That's awesome. Yeah, I love that.

The bucket list hunt and why.

Man, I will say I have, I've had the really. I've been really lucky to go on incredible hunts. You know, I don't know that I have too much that I'm like just jones informed. Probably a mountain goat hunt. And the nice thing about that is I know it could be attainable with some good budgeting. So mountain goat is real, real, real up there for me for sure.

That's awesome. Yeah, there's some giver. Draw an Idaho tag, let me know. Okay, I. I've talked more, but I. I've got some spots, so.

Sounds good. That may or may not have been my application this year.

So if you ever draw, let me know. I know some spots.

Okay, Sounds great.

And last but not least, bud, what's your favorite hunting memory?

You know, I really, really cherish, like this deer hunt my brother and I did. It was only a few years ago in 2022, but he drew a non resident tag in Wyoming. And so I scouted my butt off because I wanted to make sure both of us got bucks and, and decent bucks. And I found this deer on July 16th in 2022. And he was pretty. He was pretty dang nice. I was like, all right, that's my number one buck. And I kept looking. I didn't really find anything else that was like in his caliber. And so I hunted that deer for like, tried to find him for like 12 days in archery season. Could not find him. Could not find him. And my brother came out for the opener of rifle season, which is October 15th, and I was like, all right, brother, you're up. Like, let's go look for this buck. He was hanging out with eight other deer, and there's a couple good four points in there too. And. And he'd only shot in a fork and horn in the past. So he was like, yeah, good four point. And I was like, and there's a chance we find this my target buck. And so sure enough, right at first light, the deer are where the deer are supposed to be. And I was like, oh, heck yeah, the bucks are back. And so we sneak in there to like 180 yards. And my brother shoots this. This deer turns and looks. He's kind of wide. I was like, dude, that's a good looking buck. He's like, okay, I'm gonna take him. Boom. That deer. While he shoots and then hits it and then shoots again and drops it. And we're like celebrating, you know, excited, like you do for your brother. And then I like, something clicked. I was like, wait, there's more deer here. So then I was like, let's double. And I get set up on my tripod, and I'm watching the deer kind of like, you know, walk kind of quickly across the hillside in front of us. And they're like 220 yards or something. The first buck walks through an opening, and I was like, no, no, not going to shoot that buck. The next buck walks through, and I was like, no. He turns and looks. He had a nice frame, but he was. He was like a big two by two. And I was like, no, no, forasaurus. Yeah, he was. I was. I almost like, at first glance, I like, oh, maybe. No, no, no, no. And the next buck walks through and I see some extra tines and stuff, and I was like, yep. Boom. And I shoot that deer. And he drops. And so we go over to my brother's buck and he's like this sweet, you know, classic four point quintessential. Quintessential. Yeah, yeah. And we're all excited. You know, he's not like a. A giant buck, but he's like a great.

Just like a representative of the 8.

And then we walk over to my deer and we get closer, and I see the stickers sticking out of the sage brush, and I'm like, dude, it's my buck. I shot my buck from July. And it was. Yeah, it was my buck from July. He just broke 180. And I was just like, holy crap, dude. We just did. We doubled. It was one of our favorite. My favorite moments ever is, you know, and he shot first, so I didn't feel like I was. I wasn't screwing him out of a buck. Yeah, the way kid. Yeah, exactly. But no, it's great. I think whenever I come across those photos or, you know, that deer is hanging up in his house and I'm going to visit him next week, we always talk about it when I come over. So it's. That's awesome. That's probably one of my favorites is him and my brother and I. I like it. Yeah.

Well, Jaden, I really appreciate you coming on this and having this chat with me today, man. It's. It's been a pleasure. You're actually my very first big person.

Oh, geez, don't let me.

So. No, it's been outstanding.

Well, I appreciate you asking me to be on. Yeah. As much as. As much as you might call me a, you know, an industry guy or whatever, I really just appreciate that you follow. Find what I have to say valuable. And thanks for letting me come on chat with you for an hour.

Regular listener on. On what you put out. So if you please do me a favor and tell everybody what you do and rep your business.

Okay, I can do that. Yeah. So we kind of mentioned it, but I run a Hunt west planning company which is essentially like a travel agency for hunters. And more than that, I'm trying to help people understand the why when they come out hunting out west and understand why they would choose a place over another place to go hunt and put together a really good plan so that they come out and. And aren't just wandering around not knowing what they're doing right. Especially. It's just like what we're talking about. If you're getting out and you're an adult hunter and you're getting out west for the first time, my goal is to make sure that person comes out with as much good information as possible to have a really enjoyable hunt. That doesn't mean that they're going to get something every time, but they're going to know what to expect and be prepared for whatever their hunt throws at them. So if anyone wants to check that out, it's on Instagram. It's hunt west planning company or my website is huntwestplanning.com so thanks for that plug. I appreciate you letting me do that.

No, absolutely, I said. And let's hit full disclose, everybody. We're going to be getting together over the course of the next several weeks and whatnot and start looking at 20, 26 and. And really nail that down so I can take my. My youngest. Well, I'm going to take all the kids, but I really would like to see my. My girl shoot a really, you know, decent buck. So.

Yeah. Yeah, you're getting a great position to do it, too. So I'm excited to talk with you. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

All right, man. That's pod. Thank you. Yeah.

Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to the Hunt west pod. If you like what you heard today, the best compliment you can give is to share the show with a friend. We will see you on the next episode and we hope one day to see you Hunt West.