How to Hunt All Day - A Deep Dive on Elk Hunting Strategy

Foreign. This is the Elk Hunt podcast, Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Alrighty, guys, welcome to the podcast. Really excited to share this episode with you. It was just really good, a really great conversation and I actually did this on someone else's podcast, but I wanted to bring it to you guys because it is such good elk hunting content stuff. I mean, I've done hundreds of podcasts and stuff that I feel like we really nerded out on the details. So I wanted to bring it to you. So this episode was actually hosted by Eric Wilson. Eric Wilson coaching on Instagram. His podcast is do not go quietly. If it's on Spotify, go check it out. Out. He did a great job with this episode and kind of interviewing me for questions that he had and, you know, situations that he ran into which I love this because everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. The famous Mike Tyson quote. But this is so true is like you have this grandiose plan when you go elk hunting and then nothing goes right. So what do you do? And we broke it down. We really. I tried to just get very nitty gritty specific on things I would do in this situation. And I think this is probably more common for a Colorado DIY hunt. And I know Colorado is not really DIY anymore, but like I think your everyday run of the mill Colorado, hell, even Idaho hunt, this is kind of the scenario that happens. And I've been there, been there a lot. And so this is kind of just what I would do in those circumstances. And it was just really good. So love this interview. Great job, Eric, and putting it together. If you guys haven't yet, go check, follow him on Instagram, follow his podcasts, subscribe to his podcast, all those things. Anyway, hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Thanks to Eric for letting us post it to this channel as well. Appreciate it and hope you guys enjoy today's episode of the podcast brought to you by Onx Hunt. If you're not an elite member yet, you really need to check it out. Because more than just a mapping service, Onyx has created an entire hunt planning system. And with the Hunt Research tool and on access to Hunt and Fools, E Magazine and even Terrain Ax, these are the ways I'm planning better hunts. I'm going on a bunch of really cool, cool hunts. And if you want to go on More hunts. You want to go on better hunts, having that membership is going to help you do. So check them out, use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 20 when you upgrade to elite. Tons of great benefits.

All right, thanks for being here, Cody. I appreciate your time, brother.

Yeah, thanks for having me again, man.

Yeah, I'm excited about talking about elk and everything else that us flatlanders over here on the east coast don't get to talk about that much.

Yeah, I mean, I could talk about elk anytime, so. Yeah. Yeah, I know. You're definitely getting hooked. So.

I have the bug. I went out and got my ass kicked last year, but at the same time, it was fun. I really enjoyed it.

Do you have the bug or before.

Last time we chatted, you know, I think I have it in a little bit of a different way, which I want to get into, but I think I'm trying to start the first question right now with everyone coming out of the season, and I'm asking everybody the same thing. I talked to Andy May last week, who's a great whitetail guy out of Michigan, but, you know, on your side of the coin, out west, hunt an elk. What are one to two things that you are taking from last season? Whether they're things that you learned, whether they're things that you. You tried and you said, that's. That's a good idea, I can do more of that next year and improve on it. But what are one to two things that you just might. And it may not even be a completely different tactic. It may just be something you're honing, that you're, like, kind of involving, evolving into that you look at and go, I'm going to do more of that next year. Or I think if I focus more on that, that's going to help me just continue to get better at what you're doing that might help somebody who's just getting into the game or maybe four and four to five years in and still trying to get better.

I am going to answer that, and I don't know if it's exactly what you're looking for, but the first thing it made me think of, it's like this rule or this concept that I think is always prevalent and kind of had to learn it, learn it again. Right. But I got. I got really lucky with it. And it's this concept of, like, never be head down to the barn.

And I think, never be head down to the what? Head.

Head down to the barn. So, you know, like, when you're taking horses Back, whatever, and you start heading for the barn. You know, you're just, like, not really thinking, right? And a horse will want to, like, run to the barn. And I think guys will do that with hunting, where it's like, it's over, right? And just kind of, you know, either the day is over or the hunt is over, and you kind of lose focus, right? Like, you're just not thinking. Uh, and so to, like, quick reference to what I'm talking about this year, we were talking before the podcast, but I didn't have a ton of time to hunt. And so I had a few days, honestly, was kind of like, shooting for the moon. I didn't expect much. Um, and maybe that's a piece of the puzzle, but I basically, I had hunted few days, found a good bowl, had had the encounters I wanted, and I. I kind of changed my perspect this year. It was like, you know what? Here's the things I want to accomplish. I want to do xyz, and I had those. I just didn't kill one, right? And second to last day, I find a shooter bowl. I make a fast move, because I think it's going to unfold pretty quickly. Long story short, bowl, it doesn't work out. And I can't find this bowl the next day. And it's like, I think last day, I still, you know, basically all day, couldn't find this ball. Morning, evening.

Is this archery? Are you in archery season right now?

Archery season. And in my head, it was kind of like, you know, that's it. That's the season. You know, I got tomorrow morning, and I got a bail out of here. I, you know, just kind of head down, headed to the barn, you know, like, just kind of going through the motions. And last morning, you know, literally bottom of the ninth, and I'm hiking to this glassing knob. And sure enough, like, the ball I was looking for the entire time, I just happened to look up, and he's, you know, 60 yards from me, and it's like, oh. And I almost got caught with my pants down.

What time is it?

It's like seven in the morning, you know, like, just. Right.

Wow.

And, like, the funny thing is, is I probably should have been at that. That glassing knob at daylight, but I wasn't because I wanted to see some other stuff. And so I was like, I'm gonna, like, check, let it get daylight and then go. And I was. I. My head was in a completely different space. I was hiking, breathing hard, like, not even being sneaky whatsoever. It was Just kind of like going through the motions, right? And I'm like, freeze, and there's an elk. I didn't know it at the time. It was the same bull, but it was just like, bullshit. Shoot a bowl, knock an arrow, take two steps, shoot the bull. And it was like, man, I've been doing this my entire life, and I still get into that rhythm of telling this story that the season is over and you're justifying it or you're going through the motions or whatever. And I think we all get there where it's like the last day and you're like, in your head, you're telling the story of why it didn't work out and what you're going to do different. But it's like, the game's not over. There's still two minutes to play. And I think you can even do it on the micro level, which would be, how many times have, you know, you go out, you're doing a hunt or whatever, and like, we're headed back to the truck, it's 9:30am Nothing's gonna happen, right? And you bump it out and, you know, always, you know, always have your head in the game. And to me, it was, I would say, a rude awakening, but, like, worked out, I got super lucky on the whole deal. Would have been really pissed. And this would be a completely different conversation if I would have bumped that elk, but, you know, got lucky and capitalized on it. But I mean, such a stark reminder that, like, like, it's not over until it's over and hunt every minute that you can.

Yeah, that's a great, great answer. What. What's one other thing? Can you think of anything else just from a maybe a tactic standpoint or anything?

I'm trying to think, trust your gut. So another scenario that's.

Yeah, I want to hear about this because I. I've. When I talked to Andy last week, who's, you know, one of the best whitetail guys out there, and he. He had what he does with the limited amount of time that he has. Like, the guy is just insane in terms of his ability to go scout a new area. And he talks a lot about instinct and trusting your instinct. So talk to me about that.

So same trip, like, two days before that. I had it. It was. This whole trip was like a bonsai. It was the last kind of last trip. It's in October already, and I bonsai over the first morning. I'm in. I'm in elk. I'm making a move, and I'm trying to Like, I'm dogging this herd. So basically I'm kind of paralleling them, trying to, like, trying to cut them off, but also just trying to be in the right spot when they do kind of hold up mid morning. And I, you know, moving in, moving in, getting closer, kind of like I'm paralleling, but getting closer.

And just so that for people that are listening. What kind of terrain? Like, you're in Montana. What kind of. Yeah. What kind of terrain are you hunting? Just so that people can get a little bit of an idea their head, you know, visualize this.

Imagine, like, mule deer country. Like, very open, open. Super open.

Yeah.

And I mean, sparse trees here and there, but, like, pretty open, by and large. And I'm moving closer, and they're. They're just over the hill, so it's still pretty. There's a lot of topography in. From that perspective. It's very open, but there is still topography. And there's kind of a big cliff band up ahead of me. And these elk are kind of feeding along the cliff band and in the rolly hills kind of. And so it's very rolly hill. And as I'm moving closer, I see tracks that were obviously from the day before. And, you know, instantly I thought, oh, interesting. I wonder if they came through here yesterday. And it was that, like, gut intuition of I should hold up and see what they do. Because if yesterday they came through this draw, you know, maybe they're not completely paralleling. Maybe they're going here. And I literally had that thought, saw a bush that was like 10ft away. And I was like, I'll get to that bush. I made it halfway to that bush, like, you know, I don't know, five yards. And I hear a cow bark at me. And she had just come over the ridge and caught me, like, right as I was about to sit down. And, you know, it's like. I think a lot of people, it was like the gut intuition was, there's traction yesterday. There's a high likelihood that they just take the same route. Like, hold up, right? Like, just. Let's let the situation materialize. We are killers. Like, if you're a killer, you have those gut intuitions of, like, okay, where should I go? Where? What are they doing? You're trying to figure those out. Like, it's this constant puzz puzzle when you're, you know, trailing animals or trying to get in front of animals or any of these things. And I think it's easy to overthink things oftentimes. And it's like, go with the first reaction. Like, to me, it's always, it's most often right. But it's like the goal is to hone that gut intuition over time. So, you know, maybe you don't know what to do. Maybe your first time elk hunting, you're like, dude, I don't have gut intuition.

I was actually just about to ask you. I do think that that's part of that is just to experience and then your experience kind of parlaying into the way that you perceive a situation. So when you don't have a lot of experience, if you're a guy who's, you know, hunted out east their whole life and first or second time out west, you know, where does that play in, do you think? I.

Okay, so my, my argument to that was like, you have natural blown killer instinct. And I think when you're new, you second guess it. It's not that you don't have it. You second guess it. You're like, I don't know what to do. It was like, what was your first reaction? Like, just go with your first reaction and learn from it. Right? Like, what's this classic saying is like a decision right now is better than a. Or no than no decision or whatever, tomorrow, Whatever the saying is, I screwed that up. But the point being is like, go with your gut intuition. So many times I think new hunters are like, I just don't know what to do. You know, should I do this, should I do that? It was like, what was your reaction right out of the gate in that scenario? My reaction was like, oh, hold up. Like, solid chance they come through here. Right? My timing was a little bit off, which will happen, right. But the next time it happens, I'm honing that, that gut intuition of like, ooh, see this track? Remember last time you got busted? Hold up instantly, you know, hold up quicker, whatever it may be. And I think it's just like, think of it as a skill that you're honing over time. And if you think about just making decisions, right or wrong, what is your gut and what's your gut telling you to do? And just focus on that. And I think over time you get better at making those gut decisions. Like, you look at like a really great hunter, like Lampers or Brian Barney or something like that. Like, they have 10,000 hours to make those gut intuitions, but they still have those gut intuitions. Right? And so it's just a matter of like crafting that and honing it over time.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think I as this. And even though I'm new, as the season went along last year and I heard multiple people say that, I really started trying to stop second guessing myself and just say, go with what your gut tells you the first time. And if you make a mistake, learn from it, but stop, you know, debating yourself all the time. I think this is really great advice.

I think it's a huge problem when you have two people because it's easy to, like, lean on the other person. So say you and I are both new, we go to Colorado, and you're like, dude, I don't know, what do you think we should do? Like, your first reaction is to, like, lean on the other person. And their reaction is lean on you. So you get into this, like, cycle of no one's really making a call. And I think pro of hunting by yourself is like, you gotta make this decision, so you just kind of have to, right? And I think that's kind of important. I think, you know, trusting your gut, make a decision and go with it. Like, for the record, you can have all the experience in the world and make the wrong decision. So for sure, that happens all the time. So.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. When I went out west this year, I did it by myself, you know, and so it was. It was like that I didn't have anybody to play stuff off of. But at the same time, you know, I had to learn from the things that I did know and learn the things I didn't know. And you make assumptions that are right, you make assumptions that are wrong, but at least they're yours, you know, and you're not getting second guessed by somebody else.

And I think this is where like after action review and like, maybe that's a really technical term for just like, thinking through it after the fact can be so important. So, you know, let's say you go through a call or you'd make. Make a decision. You get into elk, you know, you're out there, you get into elk. You're like, I did the. You know, you do whatever. You go with your gut and it doesn't work out. It's good to, like, rethink through those things. Sometimes when you're in the heat of the moment, you follow an elk, you know, you don't really think about what you did or why. And, you know, the reason we have after action reviews is like, to analyze those things, to basically rewrite. Like, okay, why did I make said decision? You know, what was. What was the reason? Was it a good one? Was it a bad One. Right. And like, so we can analyze it and so we can kind of improve those decision making processes. And so I think about that too. Like, to me, it's like I'm constantly just like, okay, well, went right. What went wrong? You know, what decisions could I change? Like, those type of things, like the little things. And it's like constantly thinking about those, I think will really improve that decision making over time.

Yeah, I think one of the things too, that as I think about at least my experience out west last year, so I think a lot of people do what you just said after the hunt, they'll get away from it and they start to kind of break it down. And some people don't do that, but a lot of the people that I talk to do. But one of the things I wondered is, should we be doing it at the end of every day? Because I, you know, last year I got there and on the second day I. I went in early. It was like first week of September in Colorado, and they weren't talking at all. Like, no vocalization, literally the entire week. But I. I managed to call one in, but he snuck in on me. I didn't even know he was there. Right. And then I busted him out. But instead of at the end of the day, kind of, you know, and this is after the hunt, I've processed this instead of at the end of the day saying, what did I do that made that happen? I was very focused on the area and the fact that I had called this bull in. And so I kind of like, okay, I need to hunt that area. Instead of going, well, was it. Is. Was it that specific area or was it something that I did, you know, within the context of a certain terrain feature or something like that, that if I can't go find him, I could replicate that somewhere else. And I didn't really process, and I don't even know if that's the right thought process. I guess what I'm saying is I didn't that night try to process everything down. I was just kind of focused on, oh, there's a bull there and I need to go find him.

Yeah. The thing I like about what you said is I think a lot of people say, you go to Colorado. I like that example. You go to Colorado, you hunt two or three days, you don't see anything, nothing's talking. All of a sudden you're getting dejected. It's like, I've been there before and, you know, you make a call, whatever, this bull comes in silent, and you're like, oh, there's elk, right? And so I think too many people will. Everything else seems like it's failed. And so I, I double down on the thing that seemed like it didn't fail right. But I don't know if that's the complete right answer. There's, you know, thinking through like, okay, why was that elk there? Can I replicate it? It's the action, not the location. So you know, you want to double down on the location. You're like, there's an elk here. I'm going to obsess about this. I got three days left. This is the only elk I've seen. I'm going here, buddy.

That's what, that's what I did. That's what I did. I lived there for like the next three days and never found him again.

But the takeaway was really like, okay, bulls aren't talking. Here's what worked on a silent call in what was the other scenario? Was it a betting area? Was it a north face? Was it a 30, 30 degree slope? Like what was, what were the other variables? And how do I rinse and repeat that? So like I muffed this one up, you know, is there more? So is the sign telling me that that was the only elk? Like there's not much called in this elk. That happens to people too, you know, they'll just obsess. And all it was was like one five point hanging out by himself on a mountain. And it's like, okay, so how do I take the same tactic but repeat it somewhere else? Like, you know, what did I learn from that? And so what is the good, what is the bad again? It's like the, the after action review of that scenario, maybe it tells us like instead of just honing in on this area, like how do we, how do we find this again? How do we re replicate this experiment?

Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. You're dead on. So I'm going to throw just a scenario at you. And the reason I'm going to throw this at you is I experienced it. But at the same time, having talked to other people that have gone out there for the first few times, they've kind of run into the same scenario. And whether we handle it right or handle it wrong, this is one I wanted to bounce off you. So scenario is you've got an area that got clear cut pretty heavily and then there's a bunch of timber around it and to the west of that clear cut there's some timber and then there's private land, right? And then everything to the east is public on the. About 20 yards inside the timberline to the east, there's a creek running through it, and it's more of a bog than a creek. But there. There is literally, it looks like a highway. There's. There's almost no place where there's not tracks, right. That it's getting traveled heavily. But the wind swirls like crazy in there. And so how do you hunt that?

Yeah, so I'll do the best I can here and correct me if there's. I'll fill in details and correct me if they're too.

And ask me questions, too, because if I, you know, I gave you a big, broad scenario, but, like, as you go through it, but, you know, ask me whatever, and I'll give you more details around it.

And the reason I love it is because, like, I. I remember the early days. Like, I remember seeing the trails and being like, dude, if I just sit right here, like, it's dead bulk, Dead bull city, right? And it just never, never, ever works.

I didn't do that because I knew if I sat there, like, based on the way the wind was going, they were just gonna, like, no way. But I was trying to figure out, like, okay, how do I hunt that? And were they potentially traveling? You know, there's a road also that ran kind of right through that clear cut. And so I was actually wondering, okay, are they traveling through there to private, you know, during the day and then coming in there at night? I was trying to figure all that stuff out, but. Okay, go ahead.

Sorry. Okay, so first. First of all, rule of thumb, like, this may sound really simple, but I'm gonna stomp out, like, 10 yards of those tracks just so I can figure out, because, like, I don't know if that was last week's tracks, and, like, they'd be. They're gone. You know, that's often. Often happened to me. I. So many times, you know, that first week of season, I would see a wallow and be like, this is it. You know, I figured it out, and then, you know, nothing. Like, it was like they just vacated as soon as I stepped foot there. And so I always want to know those things. And it's difficult because, like, normally it's like, oh, just bugle. See where they are, right? And, like, let's just work. Let's just figure out where they are. Bulls aren't talking. Like, I know that game very well. So, like, let's. Let's play the best we can, and, like, let's stomp out some. Some tracks and See if those elk are still using it when I come back in a day or two. I mean, obviously my first move is to try to figure out where they are, make my best assumption at betting. So I forgot how big the, the area was. But I'm assuming these elk are feeding in the clear cut and there's probably a loop. It's never as standard as like they're. They're in the timber and they're feeding in the clear cut. Never works that way. But I assume there's like, they're, they're in that region, right? Like some version of that.

So yeah, there's. And there were some pretty good sized drainages in there that were really gnarly at the bottom of them, you know, and a couple of them had some open meadows at the bottom of the drainage, kind of swampy areas that had a lot of, you know, grazing area and that stuff. I think they were probably, they were definitely. There was tracks down in there too. So they were feeding down in there sometime.

You know, what day, what day of the hunt is this and how long is the hunt that matters?

Seven days. I was there for seven days and I think I found that creek on day two or day three is when I went and checked it out.

Okay. So my, and my initial game plan right now would be like I need to just dabble from the outsides and try to figure this out. If I didn't know they weren't talking yet, I would, you know, I'm obviously going to try to like work around and locate. Just throw out some locate bugles being its first, I'll kind of dive into what that looks like. But like, like being in this first week of September, I'm probably gonna kind of stay high on the ridges the best I can, like out of the wind or with the wind, obviously. And I'm gonna throw out like, you know, some soft cow call trying to set the scene or whatever mixed with some locate bugles. And I'd probably spend 15 to 30 minutes per setup trying to take my best stab at, you know, location. You know, assuming they're betting somewhere. I would try this at pretty much any hour of the day. Like I'm gonna be hunting all day and I'll try to touch on like what my day looks like because I just got this question on the Internet.

Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, that is what I, I did. I hunted the whole, I hunted the whole day, like seven. I had one day where I came in 11 or something like that. Took a nap. Right. But every other Day. I was literally the entire day.

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No, I mean, it's. It's. There's a lot of clear cuts in the area. And so it was like, clear cuts. There's a road through the middle, and then there's timber patches kind of in. But, yeah, there was either a timber patch between the clear cut or there was, like, a drainage between the clear cut. Clear cut.

Right.

So, you know, you'd have. But they were not miles. No.

And how windy? Like, is it standard, like, thermal wind, or are we talking, like, it's all swirly? Because it's just enough wind to mess with the topography and it swirls perfectly. I'm assuming that's the scenario, because it always is.

Yeah. And it wasn't. It was like, the elevation was really high, but the terrain in that area wasn't super, like, hilly and ridgy. It was. It was kind of flat with drainages. So it wasn't like you had a lot of ridges that came down to, you know, it was basically. It was pretty flat, and then you. You had some drainages.

Yeah. And first time you got to the area, is it morning or evening?

First time I was there was morning, but. Well, I set up in the evening, you know, but the first time I hunted was early morning.

So you find all these tracks, and, like, I think this is a pretty standard scenario. Right. Like, ooh, found elk sign. What do I do now? Like, I set up. I call. Right. And the guy's going to call right from where he saw the tracks, because, like, who knows where they went? I don't think it's a terrible advice. And if I had a lot of days, I'd probably Like hey, let's scoot back and try to figure this out from the edges and work my way in. Is it kind of the like, like broad system approach is like let's work from the edges and work in slowly so we don't mess this up. And so what that looks like is like being on the ridges around, right. And trying to locate into there to see if we can get an answer or just even a pop. Like to, to most guys, they think I'm talking about, you know, a response via bugle. I am, I'm going to be doing these 30 minute scenarios and I'm listening for a twig break. That might be the only answer I get to give me the details I need. Right. So I'm going to start from the edges. Let's just say I found it. I'm just going to throw out numbers. But like 8:30 in the morning, things are kind of quieting down anyway and it's like, I don't know, I don't want to go just cromping in there on the first day. So I'm going to try to work the edges all day. I am going to slip into like the top third or top quarter of those timber patches and I'm going to do these calling scenarios and 1000% not expecting anything but a bowl to just show up and be standing there. So arrow is knocked. I am ready. I'm probably just going to call from the same position and hope a satellite bowl comes up, you know, from wherever they are and gets, you know, to me. Right. And I'm best case scenario, I hear a twig break or something and I'm like, okay, I know there's elk in here. They just didn't do anything about it. I just don't know that's best case scenario. Best case scenario, they just bugle at me.

But so you're just to clarify you starting on the. And then you're, you're kind of gradually working your way in and calling further and further into the tree line.

I kind of work first day.

Is that what you're saying?

That's over. That's over like three days. So like yeah, okay, first day. You know, I found those tracks 8. We're probably set up by 9:30. I'm gonna like, I'm gonna spend the entire day just kind of like not screwing anything up with the wind but like just trying to check the tops of those timbers. So you know, a lot of times, you know, bulls are or elk are bedded halfway or in the bottom third. Right? That's where it's nice and cool and. But sometimes I can get into that same timber patch and not be all the way down or like just, you know, just on the edge or something where I can call a bull and a bull come work up. Like a lot of times it's a five point or a small six or something. But if there's elk, say there's a herd elk down there, which is probably the case. There's probably a couple satellites hanging around too. And I'm trying to call that satellite off and he's probably not going to say a word, but he's going to come up and if I'm in the timber patch with him, he's going to come investigate. That's my expectation. Now that may not happen. I may have to like check every timber patch. Gosh, generally speaking I would get some kind of response even if it's non verbal. But like, let's assume it's really hard, didn't happen. I'm like, I know these elk are here. So in the evening I may take my best guess and try to be back towards where that trail was and be like, okay, are they going to come out there? That'd be ideal. Maybe I'll do a bunch of calling super sporadically, right. I'm gonna call a couple times, wait 30 minutes later, call a couple times. And I'm like, my guess would be they're going to come out that trail that evening. But you know, if I'm wrong, I'm in a position where I'm not going to screw anything up. If I still didn't see anything, didn't hear anything, I'm. I'm gonna try to find those elk at night. I'm going to be doing a lot of listening and probably doing some calling all night. Like I'm gonna come back or stay and you know, maybe I'll go back, eat dinner, come back say 9, 30 or 10, and I'm gonna do a bunch of calling sequences. If I have to hike down a ridge, if I have to hike in there, that's fine. Like I just got to figure out where these elk are.

And so you're doing that at night after dark? Yeah, just, just to try to figure out where they are.

Right, right. I just gotta know they're still there.

Gotcha.

And if like, if I went in that night and I didn't hear anything like say I covered five miles that night or three miles that night and I'm like, gosh, they had to have been in that cut. If they didn't answer me. I'm probably on to the next elk, to be honest with you. Like, like, personally, I'm out of there. I just don't think they're there. But, like, I don't know, maybe I heard them. I heard something that said, like, gosh, there's still elk in there. Again, all the red flags for me to bounce on this situation, but, like, let's. Let's just stick it out for shits and giggles. So that night, we still don't get anything. We call all night in our, you know, cover ground all night, we still don't locate anything. By the way, I like backing up a touch. I probably would have went in at 9, you know, covered whatever ground I need to, called Cal, called bugled. And if I didn't see anything, I would have been out looking at new areas that night. I would have been, you know, either from the truck or hiking in or whatever, trying to locate something. Like, I just need to locate something. A lot of times in that is, you know, when people tell me, like, oh, elk weren't talking at night, they were talking. They just shut up during the daytime. So sometimes you can find those elk in the middle of the night, and, like, they'll respond to you and answer you. That may also take 30 minutes of calling, but he'll answer you at night, and then he'll never answer you again. So I would have been out looking for plan B that night before I go back in the morning. But, like, let's assume.

So that's a big. I guess that was a big mistake I made because I was not out looking at night. Yeah, I was literally all day long, but I wasn't going at night trying. And that. I mean, I think that's a really good point. Right. Because I did hear a couple vocalizations during the night, like, throughout the course of the week. Not much. And they weren't close, but I did hear a little bit. That was the only time I heard anything.

There was a point that makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't go to bed until I had another bulldo hunt. Like, I needed. That's super smart because, like, I just. It's, you know, those early seasons, they just not talking in the daytime, they're very difficult to locate. And so just being able to locate at night's key. So in that scenario, like, we're obviously trying to find more oak. So say I assume I didn't find anything. So the only thing I have to go off of if I'm, like, looking at this is, like, okay, well, I know there's tracks in that one spot. Let's go back to daylight at that one spot again. 30 minutes before daylight. I'm hour before daylight. I'm locate bugling. I'm trying to like, muster up something, right. If I, if I didn't hear anything by that, I really would fail.

But, well, just so what you're saying right there is. So I, the, there's this road right through the middle, right. And I was working a timberline on the west side. And that's the second morning. That's when I had one sneak in on me. Right. But that's not where the creek was after that. No luck. So day three, I think, is when I started working the creek. Now there's a big clear cut, then there's a timberline. The creek's 20, 20 yards inside the timberline. But there was this patch of pine trees out in the middle of the clear cut. It was probably, I think it was about 50 yards from the entry exit point of this little creek. And so I set up in there two nights in a row and was calling. And the second night there was something in there. I think it was a book because it was raking like crazy. No vocalization, but lots of noise, lots of movement is in a small patch that you're saying I was in the small patch. They were in the timberline. Okay, right. So there was something in there that second night, but I could never get it to come out, you know, and so, and I didn't move in. And then I tried that again. And that was the only time I ever got, you know, any kind of location of anything in there. So I, I, I had enough stuff going on in there that I didn't ever leave that area significantly other than continue to kind of explore drainages that might attach to it. But I never, in retrospect, as I kind of break the thing down, I never really heavily investigated a potential travel pattern over to that private, which could have been it.

Um, you know, the downside to the, the move you made, not to call you out, but, like, no, I listen.

So huge learning experience for me and for everybody, anybody that listens. Like, I, I'm, I have no pride about this. I just want to get better, honestly.

Yeah, totally. So, like, you have to really think about where you set up. And like, to me, that, that screams a spot where a bull can see out and see nothing. Like those elk. If they're pressured elk, they're not going to come out until it's like pitch black, right. And they can. Like, if they hear something out there, they can look from, like, 20 yards within the timber. The same thing will happen often, and people make this mistake all the time is they're like, oh, look at this giant meadow, this giant park in the middle of this timber. Like, I'm set up in this meadow. Well, the bull is just going to look out in the meadow and go, I don't buy it. You know, like, if it's a pressured elk, he's going to stay back. You may never even see him, and he's not going to come close. And, you know, you're sitting on the edge of this meadow that's 80 yards across or 100 yards across, and all of a sudden you're like, yeah, I don't really have an option to shoot. Like, the elk would have had to come 40 yards into the meadow for me to shoot him. But that's what happened on Primos. You know, it's like, you know, a classic. Like, you know, like, you watch these videos and, like, these elk just, like, walk out into the wide open, and it's like that. That never happens in real life. Trust me.

So you really want to be. You really want to try to set up in the thicker stuff.

It's like, I mean, you wouldn't try to call it turkey out into a wide open field. You know, maybe there's a scenario where that works, but it's like, the goal is, like, to be hidden enough to where they gotta, like, try to find you, but open enough that they're not gonna feel threatened by that situation. Right. And that's a. That's like, write that down. That's a really hard thing to figure out when you're running and gunning is like, is this enough.

Thick enough that they can't find you, but open enough that they feel.

Yeah, right. And that's balance. And actually, I. I kind of like open timber. So in this scenario where you were like, oh, I want to set out in the open, or this little timber, like, oh, this is perfect. I'm kind of hiding in the open to. To them, you were just in the wide open. I like the timber. They like the timber because they know the timber that's home. Right? And so they're much, much more comfortable to, like, navigate around in that timber. In that open timber is kind of that. What I'm talking about is, like, open enough that they're like. They live in there.

They're.

It's not like they're going into the darkness. They're, like, living in the Darkness. And they can stay in the darkness. That's why I really like getting in the timber patch with them and trying to, like, call them to the edge of that, where it's like. Don't just go tromping right through the middle. You'll get busted every time. But if you can kind of hang out on that outside corridor, that outside 8th, even, like, you know, you're far enough in that you're not, like, this outsider that just walked up to the edge. You're in there, but you're not chomping through the middle. So you're, like, sneaking.

So what are you. Like, you're saying, what, 20 yards in, 30 yards in?

I mean, it could be. It could be a hundred yards in, could be 200 yards in.

It depends on how big it is.

Right.

Okay. So it's relative to the size of where you're at. Okay. And I know that's. Again, it was my first time, but that's. I was really kind of hanging on the edges, right? I wasn't getting in deep and calling from in there. I was kind of hanging, like, working the edges of everything, which is the right answer.

Just was. It was too far edge, Right. And the other downside, the other mistake guys would make is like, oh, I heard something in that creek bottom. I'm gonna go in the creek bottom and call. But the wind, it's. It's a. It's a fool's errand, right? Like, the wind in that creek bottom is gonna screw you every time. It's gonna be too thick right on the bottom. So that's why I really like the edge of that mountain. So if you look at that topo where it, like, levels out, like, if you can find that, where you're, like, kind of on that line where there might be benches or it's more open, like, that's a better scenario to me. And a lot of people, like, you read the textbooks, it would be like, oh, you need to call elk downhill, because they're more like. But that not always true, right? If I'm trying to call a satellite up and I'm just using cow calls and small bugles, doesn't really matter. That bull's not coming necessarily to fight. He may circle whatever. So don't. Don't always take that as, like. Like the gospel or whatever that you have to call a bull downhill, because often times I'd rather have the bright wind and the right, like, not swirling or I'm high enough that it's not swirling, and call that bull uphill. And try to navigate that because I can always make that last minute adjustment to get parallel with him, which is like, now we're getting really 301. But the, the idea is like, I think too many people want to go to that crick bottom. And the crick bottom is thick, it's brushy, it's nasty, and you can't win the wind, you know, like, it's just going to be squirrely down there. So I try to stay out of those situations. And if you're hearing bulls in there, say, like I say you're out there and you're like, oh man, there's a bull in that bottom. I still wouldn't go in the bottom with him. I would try to call him out of the bottom. Now that might not work, you know, may take longer, all these things. But I'm going to try to look at the topo. I'm going to try to look at the, the satellite views on onyx. I'm going to be like, okay, where's it, like, where can I get him to come? That's like a good, that, that mix, right? I can almost do that from satellite view if I can look at the timber. So if I'm like, man, that, that bottom looks really thick. But if I come up here to this bench, I might be able to call him up. And that's, to me, that's, well, to the way I see it is like, man, it's a classic scenario where an elk would have a couple cows, right? He's on that bench. That's a very believable scenario that we're trying to paint to this bowl. Who's cleared out on the bottom.

Yeah, that makes, I mean that's, that's really good insight. As I sit here and think about, you know, I think I had located, you know, whether it was one or two because it was pretty close to the same vicinity. I just didn't work it the right way. You know, I should have gone whether I went past the creek bottom and worked, you know, a little deeper into the timber there or whether I kind of got on that, you know, a little bit inside that first edge, you know, that kind of boarded up against the creek bottom and worked it from there as instead of like what I did. But. And that's why you do it and that's why you learn, right?

Yeah. And another like way to think about, you know, back to like the. What do you do all day? I, I owned New Mexico one time and it was very similar. And I keep imagining it when I'M thinking about this, but. And I would, what I would do is like this entire big hillside, I knew there was elk on it, they weren't talking much. And I would just. Basically I was, I don't know, two thirds of the way up the mountain, but I would just parallel all the way around this canyon because the wind was kind of coming up, up and it was in a place high enough on the mountain that I had that. But it wasn't too high. That was swirly. And I would. In the morning, I was covering pretty good ground. So I'm moving pretty quickly. I'm expecting calls or some action more.

Quickly, but you're in, you're in the tree line. You're not sitting there at the, you're like, you're, you know, a quarter of the way down in the tree line and you're working that whole perimeter.

And in this scenario, I had started in the dark. Like I was there. I'm like, let's get there an hour before dark. Surely something's going to answer. Well, nothing answered. And I was like, well, I'm here. Like, let's work this timber, right? And so at daylight, like, if I don't get an answer or something's happening within minutes, right? Like we're, we're moving pretty good. And then as that morning, you know, gets into the time frame where these elk aren't going to be talking and I'm expecting less movement, I may just sit down and call for an hour. So let's just say, I don't know, 8 o', clock, 8:30. I still haven't heard anything. All of a sudden I'm slowing my pace, right? So midday pace, first daylight pace daylight. I should be covering ground, like absolutely covering ground and expecting, you know, action or movement. Because even if those elk aren't talking, I should hear them moving. Like they're, they're moving at that time, you know.

How early are you starting? Before, like before sunup?

I don't know. Depends. Let's say that scenario, I would want to be out there at least an hour before daylight trying to locate. I'm just trying to hear what's in the woods, right. I'm casting bugles. That early.

I think that's a, I think that's like, for people that don't do it a lot. I think that's a really good point. Right? Because if you're, you know, somebody who doesn't hunt from the ground a lot, you know, especially like, and you're a tree stand hunter or whatever, you know, you're going up and you're getting in your stand 30, 45 minutes before daybreak, but then you're waiting for it to happen. Right. You're not out there calling in the dark. And that's a very different, different thought process. So I think that's an important, like, point.

And it doesn't even have to be this because of pressure. You could be no hunting pressure. A lot of times, you know, early September, those elk are shutting up like 20 minutes after daylight. And I used to basically hunt all night and want to be in striking position as it got daylight. Like, I wanted to be to where I could make those final moves. And, you know, maybe I wouldn't say anything for the last hour, but I was like trying to be as close as I could because I knew basically those elk were gonna shut up and walk away 20 minutes after daylight. And that was my window. And then I had all day to basically do nothing.

You would just sleep. You'd hunt. Basically hunt at night, try to locate, strike early in the morning, and then you just sleep in the middle of the day.

Yeah.

Is that where you got your sleep?

Yeah. Yeah. And like sometimes, you know, like, sleep where, like there's, you know, if it's a short hunt, like, yeah, I should be checking wallows, I should be checking crick bottoms in the mornings, you know, like all morning, taking cat nap. Like, just sleep when you can. I'm older now. I don't do this nearly. Like I used to. I used to go real hard. Like nobody wanted to hunt me because.

I was just gonna. I was gonna say that sounds. That sounds pretty freaking brutal, dude. Yeah.

I'm an old man now. Like, if you want to go hard, that's the way to do it though. Like you should be. And I'd be up all night driving, looking for tracks. Like, just slamming five hour energies. Like it was my job.

Yeah.

And so, like there's things. And you know, so back to like, I know the. I'll try to answer the question that I got asked on the Internet, which is like, what do you do in the middle of the day? So in the middle of the day in that, in your scenario, I know there's elk, there's timber. Like, I'm actually hunting those Colorado bulls by calling. So I'm going to slow down, right? I'm going to slow down. Maybe I fall asleep on, on a call set. Right. But basically I could spend an hour or two at each set, move 200 yards and do a full set again. Like, I like, nothing was.

And what does that look like when you're, when you slow down, you're doing a set. What's the, the, what's the frequency? Like, you know, what are you doing? Just kind of talk through that.

Yeah. So like hypothetically, let's say I move in nice open timber. I probably got some 40 yard shots. I like this spot. So I sit down and I'm just gonna throw out a couple cow calls, real soft, you know, nothing, nothing special. I might wait three to five minutes, throw out a cow calf reaction, you know, nothing crazy. A couple minutes later, maybe I'll throw another couple cow calls, let's say five to six, you know, spice it up a little bit. Ten minutes later. So we're, I don't know, 15 minutes into this. Now maybe I do a little spike bugle just like. Or a bed bugle just like, you know, just something soft. And then maybe I'll wait like 10 minutes and just sit there and listen and listen. Have Sammy, whatever. A couple more cow calls. You could do that, that scenario right there, just kind of on rinse and repeat for hours. And, and I've done it to where an hour later I get just a, you know, from the bed bugle back just a woo. And it's like, ah, there he is, you know, And I've done that where, you know, say 10:00am I'd get a bed bugle. I didn't get another bed bugle till 12, you know, and I'm like, you know, he's there, he just doesn't want to say anything. And by two, you know, I'll just call all day like that every 15, 30 minutes, whatever it may be. And by 2, 3, you know, he's, you know, you can hear him get up and he's now more vocal. And you know, I've had this scenario where it's like you've basically talked him into it over five hours.

And at this point though, you know where he is. Yeah, I know because he's responded to you enough. And so you're, you're kind of set. You're. Now you're thinking about your setup.

I'm not even thinking about my setup. Honestly, my entire goal is to raise his temperature. I don't even want to go in there when he's that dead to the world. Like, I still don't know if he's got cows. I don't know what scenario is like, clearly he's not that excited. But if I spend the next five hours trying to increase his temperature, oftentimes by three or four in the afternoon, he's fired up and he's ready to go. And then it's like, okay. Usually I can tell by what they do when they get up, if they have cows. A lot of times, you know, cows are going to want to go their own way, and he's just going to start following them. You know, if he gets excited and then starts walking away, that means he has cows. And if he, you know, keeps sitting there and he keeps. Maybe come closer, a lot of times when they're by themselves, he'll shut up for a while and then. Then, you know, all of a sudden be closer. I'll go back away. It's like, to me, that says bachelor group. Like, there's a couple bulls there that are answering me or hanging out together. They're not necessarily coming in. A lot of times the solo bowl will come in. And so, you know, you're kind of just trying to read what the scenario is based on, you know, kind of the what they're moving. And this is why you're trying to gather that intel. It's not like, oh, run down there, kill him. And a bull answered me, you know, I think so many people want to. They get that answer, run over there and challenge Bugle. Like, it's just not. That's not what's going to happen. Right. Like, you got to work that temperature up. You got to work. Work into that scenario. And maybe the challenge Bugle works. But, like, there's a bunch of details we need first, and hopefully we can change that situation between now and when it happens. It's like the best opportunity for that. You know, maybe later this evening, it may be tomorrow for all we know. But like, like, you know, so those are kind of like what I'm doing midday in the scenario. We're talking about another option for midday. You know, checking tracks, checking water, looking for a sign, those type of things.

I think going back before you go forward, I think just. Just to kind of focus on or.

Yeah.

Accentuate that point that you just made, right? Yes. So for, you know, for whitetail hunters, it's okay, you see him and you want the shot. Right. It's the. The concept of, you know, raising the temperature of the animal. You know, spending four to five hours doing that, potentially not even moving in and shooting them that day, but thinking, hey, tomorrow might be a day. Like, that's a completely different thought process. Right. That you have to get your arms around and to. To be patient enough to not think, I have to go in and do this right now.

Now yeah, and I don't. I don't know if this is applicable to the whitetail, but it's like, just because you see a buck doesn't mean you can just smash your rattles together. And he's going to come running in. And I think that's the way people treat elk. And it's like, you know, there's a day, there's been bulls that I've killed. Actually, this bull right here, this bull right here. I called in a week before I actually found him, probably before. That wasn't hot. I called him in, let's just say a week or two before, and he came in completely silent. He had answered the night before in the daylight. I called him in. He came in completely silent, got above me, heard one twig snap, and then he was. I felt the wind, and he was like, I never even heard anything. That was it. That was the end of it. And I came back a few days later. He answered one time in the night, but wouldn't answer me in the daylight and was like, huh, Well, I know where he is. And so, like, a few days later, I come back, and I'd been out all night that night. Been out all night, didn't find anything. I was like, I'm go check on that bowl one more time. I go in and I locate him in the daylight, and he just absolutely covers me up on a bugle. And it was like. Then he covered me up again. It was just like he was so hot. I was like, oh, today's the day. And that took a week and a half to kill that bull. And I was off looking for other elk. It wasn't like I was there every day, but I knew where he was. And, you know, he just didn't want to play the game until that day. And it must, you know, what happens, like, if you want to understand, it's like a bull could be in there. He could even have cows, but he may not have hot cows. The day he has a hot cow, he is dumb as a box of rocks, right? And he just wants to fight or. You never know. Like, sometimes there's just another bull harassing his herd, and that's the day he is all fired up. You know, maybe there's not another satellite around, and he's just doing his thing and he's, you know, that type of bull. And then the day you there, all of a sudden, it's like another bull just has been pestering him all day. And it's like, that's the day to, like, get in there. Because he's going to be very, very aggressive.

Yeah, that's. That makes a lot of sense. And that's. That's somewhat applicable to, you know, to whitetail the. To the difference between, you know, a doe group having a dough that's in heat, you know, and. And then the other bucks, you know, kind of trying to battle to get in there versus, you know, a dough group with none of them, you know, and then they're. Yeah, they're just not nearly as responsive to that, you know, whether you're going to rattle them or whatever. Um, so that's. That's a great point. What's your call sequence sound like first thing in the morning? So we just talked about what it sounded like, you know, when it. When you slow down, you're out there, you know, the sun's coming up. What's that call sequence sound like? You know, you've been out there all night or doing whatever, you know, an hour beforehand. Now what are you. What are you calling? Like?

Honestly, it depends a lot time of year, so time of September, I should say, so early season, things are slower, so you have to kind of slow play. I'm still much faster than, like, a midday early season. But, like, if it's peak rut.

Gosh.

I mean, I don't call as much as I used to. I would say if it's peak rut, like, say, I don't know, September 20th. September 20th. I'm probably just casting locates and moving, like, that's it, you know, and, like, not. Not really trying to throw the cow calls, Maybe a couple cow calls. But if I don't get a response literally within 60 to 90 seconds, like, we're on to the next thing. We're just. We got to move. Like, you got to cover more ground. I'd rather cover for 10 miles in a day. Then, you know, focus on this one spot, which is very different. I think people struggle with that concept of, you know, when do I, you know, sit on this one bowl for five hours and when do I cover five miles, you know, like. And that's, you know, the. Maybe we're going back to gut intuition. But it's like, you got to learn those things and, you know, peak rut. If I'm not hearing or seeing something, I'm very much covering ground and moving quickly because I'm trying to find them. If I bump elk, that's fine line.

How much ground are you covering between calls? You call, you don't get anything. 60 seconds. 90 seconds, you're moving. How far do you move before you're calling again?

It's going to be very dependent on the location. Right. Like if I'm looking out and like, like, okay, that's where the elk are. I may, I may. It may be a mile before I call again. Right. Like, so that open country is a little bit different. As little, I would say as little as 200 yards, maybe even 100 yards. Like, I don't think that's unrealistic to say. Like, yeah, you know, I went 100 yards. I'm like, gosh, this hole looks good. Like I should again, you know, and I think people can over call, but like I may also go a mile without calling. So it's going to depend on the terrain. And just if I, if I look at it and say like, there should be elk in here, like somewhere in here, you know, I think you use your, use your bugle tube as if it was optics. You know, I'm, I hunt a lot more open country now and I use my optics a lot more. But the, you know, a lot of the stuff I hunted before was very much like, like we were just trying to cover the ground with our buccal tube because we couldn't see anything. So, you know, if you can see, use that. If you can't see, use the tube. The tube doesn't always work. Don't, you know, don't be solar. Solely reliant on it, I think is a big lesson and I think in, in 2025 and on, you know, like a lot of the things, you know, a lot of my lessons were learned in 2008-2014, right. When elk were elk and they called and things are different now and so they just don't as much. And so I think a lot of people like they, they do this locate bugle, they're like, well, nothing here. You know, elk aren't talking and it's like, you know, this classic saying, but it's don't, don't always trust it. Like that's the answer. Right. They, they can definitely still be there.

Yeah. So you just, you, you kind of segued all, you know, into my next question for me and that is, can you talk a little bit about not specifically Colorado, because that's kind of getting talked about a lot, but just more for people's application strategy that are, you know, not. They don't live in a western state. Right. So they don't have an in state place to apply. How does the change in Colorado going to a point system change the way that you would Tell somebody to look at their tag application strategy as a whole across the West, I would say.

And I'm actually not a huge proponent of Colorado, I think it's a poor at bat state. So you know, what I try to teach or preach, whichever soapbox I'm on is to get at bats. And I think you need to build, you know, back to what we started talking about was, you know, gut intuition. So you want to build that gut intuition to make good decisions. So much of Colorado is like one at bat seasons that it's like you're not learning fast enough. Um, I'd rather you literally couldn't shoot an elk, but you were getting more at bats. That's a more useful way to become a better elk caller or better elk hunter is to like go to a place where you can't even use your bow. Right. Like that's like, honestly, like go do that. So many people go to Colorado and then like they just, you know, they get one at bat per year and I'm like, it's going to take you 30 years to even kill an oak.

Yeah, that is, that is so true. Because you don't. There's no feedback loop. No. Right. You're out there trying things.

Yeah.

But when you don't get at bats, you don't know whether what you're doing is right or wrong. You're just getting zero feedback. So knowing that like where and, and I'm not asking for, you know, zones or regions or even areas, but just knowing that from a perspective of states that are going to give you better at bats, you know, where should people be looking at?

So I guess to my point of that is like, you know, I think you have to build a national strategy these days. And I, you know, a lot of these. It used to be to where you build a five year strategy and the goal is like you'd have a really good tag every five years and if you were doing that in five states, you're running a really good tag every year. Yeah. Super simplistic concept that does not work anymore. So, yeah, which that's.

I'm glad you brought that up too because people are still like, I still hear people saying that's the strategy. Right. It's like, okay, if you're building points in Montana and Wyoming and you know, I'll like, I know, like, I know New Mexico's a as a draw state and so you don't. Can't build points, but if you're doing that in five different states, you can, you know, you can hunt Every year. But that's, you're saying. No, that's not really the case anymore.

Yes.

Is it because of point creep? Why is that the case?

It's just there's not five good states that that works in. So you know, like, like, oh yeah, what tag are you drawing in Nevada? Right. Like, so I, I think it does work and it doesn't work. I actually, I lean more towards like having two or three good states. I, you know, that to me is more realistic. So let's just say, gosh, and I can't, it's hard to even say, well, Wyoming anymore. But you know, maybe it's a Wyoming, Colorado, Montana.

Why is it hard to say Wyoming? Just because it takes five points, the amount of points it takes to hunt there. Now you used to be able to hunt with two to three and now it takes five.

The problem with a five year strategy is that like say you, you hunt one state and then the next year you're hunting a new state. You, you're not, you're not compounding the learning curve of the area. So ideally, you know, the upside of Colorado is you have the same place every year. So in theory you're getting better. The problem is it's so low that it doesn't really do that. You know, you're not compounding because there's maybe paths.

You may be getting to know the area, you may know the area better, but if you're not getting it back, you're still not learning anything other than, oh, I know this area better.

Right. And so the downside to the five year strategy is you're hunting new places every five years and everything change. So like somewhere in the middle to me makes more sense. And it's like, okay, you know, I go to Montana and I actually am a huge proponent of trying to learn new areas. Right. And I do think that like you should mix that because one of the greatest skills I have is I can go anywhere in the world and find elk. And I would say that like braggadociously. It's like I've just, I've done it enough. Like I, I have a lot of confidence that I can go somewhere and find out. And I think that's a crazy skill set to own. With that said, like, your entire strategy should be not killing 320 bulls, it should not be killing six points even. It should be getting at bats. And I think one of the best ways to do that is, you know, maybe we'll call it a three year strategy. So I put Utah spike hunts in that I think some of those spike hunts and I, I, I'm going to be armchair quarterback here. Complete transparency. I've never done it. I keep saying I'm going to, it's just, I have tags every year so it's difficult.

But you know, you're also coming from a place of, yeah, you've been doing this for a long time. You were able to cut your teeth way before, you know, archery, elk hunting became a thing and you were able to get it, you didn't have to go do that to get it backed. But we're in a different world.

Yeah.

So I think, yeah, you're coming from a place of like, hey, if I were starting today, this is what I would do. Which makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I, like, I don't know what the whitetail version is. Like, basically I learned to hunt whitetail on Lee and Tiffany's ranch. You know, like I, I used to have 10 point hunts every single year and just like pass bowl after bowl. So if I, you know, if I was starting today, I really do like the Utah spike hunts because, and I, I would go in there like I was hunting 350 bulls. Right. Like I'm not trying to target spikes, I'm trying to target herds and I'm learning how to hunt herds of elk. I'm going in there from a, like I'm in perform or increasing my performance and focusing on my skill sets. Stalking elk, getting close to elk, like locating elk, like all of those things. Because I do think that like you could just go hunt spikes very differently. And so success is not the goal. It's a, you know, experiences. Like I'm going to make a target list of like here's the experiences I want, I want to dog a herd. I want to get close to a lead cow. I want to like these are like, if you focused on the skill of becoming a better elk hunter, that's you know, like, and when a spike steps out, I'll shoot it. So like I do love that concept and I think you get a lot more at bats in those units. People get mad at me when I say that because there are guys trophy hunting those units and they're like, God dang, spike hunters. And then here's Cody Rich just telling.

People to do, damn it Cody, don't send those freaking people in here for spikes. I'm wanting big dogs.

Yeah. So like stay out of people's way. If someone's hunting a bull, don't be a dick. All those things. But, but yeah, I do love the Utah stuff. And so like when I couldn't get a tag that would be my first choice outside of that, you know, I think even with the new changes there's going to be some decent at bat units for Colorado in that, you know, two to three point range and that's kind of where I would start focusing, you know it's like focus on those. And by the way if I had six points in Colorado I would still go to a two point unit because of that compounding effect. Right. Like I want would rather hunt three point unit and know I could go back and do that because I'm building that into a long term strategy. I hate. I just had this conversation with my brother in law, he was like I have nine points, I'm not burning it on a three point unit. And I'm like it doesn't matter. Like this is the strategy, right. Like it doesn't matter how many coins you have. You want this unit anyway. So you know I'm looking for a Colorado three point unit and then I'm going to piggyback Montana in there for at bats. I think Montana general season season, great at bats, decent at bats, you know, location and so I can bounce between those three and I'm still building points say in a Wyoming. Where else can we go? Maybe in Arizona, you know some of those other hunts, you know, moonshot hunts. Right. Nevada I put in the moonshot category. I don't think Oregon is off the table either. You know like I think there's some decent hunts there and so it's like you have like these three year plays and then you have the five year plays and then you have like the 10, 15 year plays which is the Arizona Nevadas. And I think you know you're going to build those skill sets and when you get there, you know you're going to have the skills to go tackle those 10 to 15 point hunts. I do think you could just do those three like Colorado, Utah, Montana and Idaho when you can. Right. Like Idaho is a good at bat state. Some of the draws, you know are decent draw odds. Those would be decent, you know, get a tag when you can. And that's a, that's a pretty solid like three year strategy with like you know a sprinkle of, you know in five years you'll have have your Wyoming tag. I think that's a good one. And you know, just focus on the skills.

Yeah, that's, that's great advice. What, what does the, the weather look like? I've heard a couple people talk about potentially Like, a lack of rain, potential drought situation. This off season, what do you, you know, what are you seeing there? And, and what's that? What's the conversation around off season weather pattern?

I don't, I don't focus on it a ton. I will tell you. Montana got a record. January and February we got dumped on. So, I mean, in theory, I don't really care what the winner does. More winter kill than anything, but elk are pretty resilient. I'm more interested in this.

Y' all didn't have, like, a terrible winter, did you? Like, I mean, everyone had a pretty decent.

I feel, like, halfway through here. What are you talking about?

Well, sorry. I live in South Carolina. It's springtime. It's 70 degrees today, so we're like, hey, it's spring. Well, I joke because I forgot y' all are still in the winter.

I mean, it's 50 today. Like, it's, It's. Yeah, that's nice.

That's warm.

Yeah, we got a problem. You know, we got 49 inches of snow last month or last two months, and now it's 50 degrees. So we got a. We got a slushy mess. Yeah, people do think it's spring, but it's definitely still winter until, you know, mid May for us.

Don't get over my skis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're halfway through.

I don't, I don't overthink it. Like, I think, you know, people talk a lot about moon phase. You know, what best week, to me, I think if you really want to become a good elk hunter, take the week. Take the most time you can. Like, that's the, that's the thing that matters. Like, figure out how to hunt 20 days a year. Like, you really want to be good. You're doing two years of work in one year. Like, if you just look at it that way, um, you know, if you can do 30 year or 30 days, like, that's three years of learning in one year. So I know that's not applicable to everyone, but, you know, the best you can, and then, man, grind, grind harder than you think. And I talk a lot about race pace, so. I grew up racing, and I think one of the lessons I learned when I went pro, I say that loosely, was like, oh, these guys run at a different pace, and you race on the local racetrack, right? There's a certain pace. When you go to a national level, it's like, oh, this is a different pace. And I talk about that with elk hunting. And I, I, I think if you ever get the chance to learn from, you know, someone, a great elk hunter. That's a huge opportunity because you learn what race pace looks like, and you learn, like, how to operate. And I. I think if I had to default, I would say most people don't realize what it takes to be consistent in elk. And it's like, I don't. Not saying you have to be out all night every night, but, like, you gotta be going hard. I think if you're hunting mornings and evenings for a couple hours, like, yeah, it's not going to do. Will do it if you have 30 days. Like, that's the. You know. But I've been doing this a long time, and it still takes me 20 days. So.

Yeah, I was going to say it's. I think sometimes, like, people like me get frustrated. You go out there, you hunt really, really hard for a week. But then, you know, I heard, you know, Brian Varney talk last. I think it was. He was saying it took him 20 or 22 days last season. You know, it's like. And you guys are hunting all the time, you know, so it's not like.

Knew, but, like, I would say, yes.

No, you're not.

Well, I mean, like. And you have, like. I've had years where I've had three tags in September, and you got to go super hard on all of them. If you only have a week, you got to run a really, really high pace. Right. I think when you have 30 days, you get the. You know, Barney operates at a different level. Like, every stock he goes on is a kill. So, like, he just has to find the right one. And a lot of times, the way he's hunting doesn't require that same race pace. Right. Like, he has the time. And I would say, like, I'm you. Depending on what you're looking for, you spend a lot more time, you know, playing it slow than you do going fast with. When you're. When you're targeting big balls, it's a completely different game. But I would say, you know, trying back to the concept of, like, if you only have a week, gosh, it's going to be really difficult. I think the best hunters in the world will tell you, like, I'm not that good. I just have a. I spend way too much time doing it. And it's like, key in on that phrase. Double click on that phrase, because that's the most important thing. The greatest hunters in the world will all tell you they're not that good. They just have a lot of time. And it's like, that's what it takes, like. Yeah, it just takes days and days and like, building and learning and like, trying to, like, get in the right situation. And maybe it's luck, right? Like, maybe it's just be in the right place enough times and you get lucky. And I don't discount that at all.

No, I think that's. That's really good advice is. I mean, time spent there's. You can't replace time spent in the woods with anything. It doesn't matter, you know, how good you are on E Scouting or how good you are or anything. The time you spend out there is going to. Gonna pay dividends for you. And the thing that you just said a minute ago, which I think is also a double click, is if you get the chance to go with somebody that is good, you need to jump on it. Right? So I just. I just got invited to go with someone who's been elk hunting for a long time, you know, in a. And this is, you know, a private. It's private in Colorado, but it's guided and it's basically like there's a big herd. And, you know, he's like, I've hunted this place for 10 years in a row and we get a stalk at least twice a day.

Yeah.

He's like, you are going to get more at bats in five days doing that than you will in, like, 10 years going and doing what you did last year. He's like, if you want to learn, this is where you go. And I'm like, yes, sign me up. Like, that's so I think what you said is really important. Get around. If you can get around people that know what they're doing, doing, you know, and get in a situation where you can either learn from them or they can, you know, give you an opportunity to get a bats. Like, that's invaluable.

Totally, totally. And I think, like, just being around elk, you know, there's. There's levels to. At bats.

You know, you're not even learning a move, seeing me engage with each other. Right. Just actually seeing elk, like, I mean, we know as deer hunters that that's a huge part of us, of our, you know, evolution is just watching deer and seeing how they. They, you know, maneuver, manage things, you know, see things, smell things. If you don't see elk ever, you don't really ever get any kind of, you know, knowledge or understanding of their behavior.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. So I appreciate you. I've had you for a little over an hour, and I try to, you know, be respectful of everybody's. Time. Can you tell people a little bit about. Because you've got, obviously you've got the elk hunt podcast. You've got an E Scouting course that's really, really good. I went through it. It was. Helped me a ton in preparation for last year. Can you just tell people about those different, you know, things where they can find you, where they can access that course, all that kind of stuff?

Yeah. So, I mean, you can find the elk hunt podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Done a lot of episodes. And then on my website, I almost forgot the name of it. Elkhunt201.com so we do a full course. There's a free E Scouting course. There is a course course. My course is based around building a system. Right. I'm a very systems oriented person. If you're that way, maybe you'll, you know, appreciate it. Um, and so like, it's about building an elk hunting system and, and working with. It's not just like, here's how to, here's how to, you know, kill an elk or whatever. It's like, how do you build your system off where you hunt and where you are, what tactics, you know, those type of things? Because every place is different. And so I try to help people build their own system. And that's.

It's very just. Yeah, it's really good. I mean, not like I'm not blowing smoke up your butt. Like, it's from the standpoint, especially if you, if you're, you know, getting into elk hunting or have done it a few years, but you're not like a master at it. It's not, you know, the course is very digestible. Right. It's not like 30 sessions an hour each where it's like you just like your brains. Brain fog at the end. Like, it's detailed enough. Like you said, there's components to the system that you teach people how to build, but it's digestible enough that you can take it even if you're, you know, newer into elk hunting and you can actually apply it to your scouting. Which, like I said, it helped me a lot last year. I mean, I went in by myself to a unit that I didn't know anything about. And even though I didn't harvest an elk, I got on elk.

Right.

And I. And so to me, and the people that I talked to are like, hey, if you did that, like you were ahead of the ball game in the situation with a lot of people that have never done it before, so.

Totally, totally.

But it was very helpful.

That's how my brain works is like just building a system. This rinse and repeat, you know, it's like how to kill elk without getting lucky is kind of the goal.

How to kill off by trying. Yeah. And then where are you on Instagram.

At the rich outdoors. Yeah. So you guys can follow me. Rich outdoors. There's an Instagram for the elk hunt page too. Something Elk hunt. I forgot underscore some of that. You can find it.

Yeah. So I in. In the show notes. I'll. I'll link it all your stuff so that people can find it too.

Yeah.

So I appreciate you jumping on tons of great information. Thank you so much for being here, Cody. I appreciate your time, brother.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. All righty, guys. Thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100% free. You can download all the hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes. Or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.