https://www.listennotes.com/e/79acc80815ca4fd2a7d4c428f385f6a6

Foreign.

This is the Elk Hunt podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode of the podcast is brought to you by Onax Hunt, the Go to map tool for planning, navigating, and tracking your hunts. And today I want to tell you about a really cool feature, which is the route Builder. I love this feature. I use it all the time, whether I'm on trail runs or hunting or a lot of times just E scouting. They have this really cool, like, click to route builder where you can just drop a weight. You go to Tools Point, Waypoint or sorry, Route Builder, and then you can drop it in one spot and then go 15 miles away and drop another pin and it's going to automatically tell.

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Dude, I'm stoked to have you on. Yeah. We've been talking about doing this for a while, so.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah. So I want to talk about. Well, I should have prefaced all this, but, like, started with some elk hunting stories.

Sure.

And get into like some tips, tactics.

And stuff like that. Okay.

Would you consider, like, obviously you're Montana guy, so you hunt elk.

Yeah.

Would you consider yourself an elk guy?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's like my favorite thing to do is this. Elk hunting, archery, elk hunting. Definitely my favorite thing.

What's your favorite state?

Oh, Montana.

But it's just, I.

It's just because I grew up Here. And I mean, it's what I've done the most. I've had a handful of L tags in other states, but mostly Montana, so.

So is it two years ago you drew the bear paw tag, right?

Yeah, it was three years ago now. Three years ago, yeah. Yep.

And now it's kind of like the tag. Like, is that like the dream tag or is it like for me?

Yeah, no, that's what I burn all my points on. Because I've been building bonus points, you know, since I was 12 years old. And so that's what I burnt them all on. But I did party apply with my wife. So we. She had like, she had like 10 points. I had whatever, 20 or something. I can't remember. I think because I also got lucky in Montana by. I turned 12 years old the year that they started doing the bonus points. Right. So I just kind of hit it perfect for potentially drawing some of these permits in my lifetime, I guess.

Dude, is it crazy to put in your entire life for a tag? Oh, and like, what's the pressure like when you get like finally draw it?

I don't know. I mean, it wasn't. I definitely. I just wanted to hunt like to the fullest extent. Just hunt a bunch of it, a bunch of the season, as much as I could. And you know, it was the archery only portion of it too. So you didn't get that fallback to the rifle season like you do on a lot of hermits. But no, this is. It was a blast. It was. It was a lot of fun to hunt in a different spot.

Right.

And not that I don't. It's not that I hunt in the same spot every time, but different landscape for sure. Because usually it's like Montana, like western Montana, we're hunting the mountains. It's like, sure, I'll hunt different mountain ranges, but yeah, there's similarities, you know. And so in like the breaks type country is just different and fun, dude.

And just getting to like be in a unit where crazy amount of elk, crazy elk, like, I don't know, interactions and all those things. Like you get. I always say you get a lot of at bats. Right? Like you just get a ton of.

Experience on this for sure.

So I kind of, I guess like walk us through the story because you, Carrie, end up killing it. You did.

She did, yeah. I did not know. So that was. That's all right though. I mean, like, I kind of expect like that. I am normally the ringhorn express. That's. I. It's hard for me to hold Onto a tag. So when I finally drew that permit, I was like, all right, I'm going to, you know, try to hold out and like shoot a spool. And so I did, and I was unsuccessful. I did release an arrow and was. Yeah, yeah. Did not. Did not end the way that I wanted it to. Yeah, obviously.

So as a Montana guy, a lot of Montana guys are not callers.

They're like.

I don't know if they're anti calling, but it seems like not a lot of.

A lot of the killer. Like a lot of the consistent big bow killers and not callers.

Like, would you consider yourself a call?

Yeah.

Okay, interesting.

Hence the Ragor express. It's like, yeah, like, I can call in Rayorn.

So that's so like, what's like. Walk us through. You've been hunting Montana your whole life. Like, how does. Like, what was your kind of system that you developed like, you got good at? Like, I feel like everyone kind of has their little. Their system of like, hey, I go, here's what I do.

Yeah.

And like, since you've hunted the here your whole life, like, how did that, you know, evolve or whatever?

Um, I get. I mean, I grew up hunting with my dad and so like, he had his spots that were like the spot we would go. And I grew up, like, I didn't start archery hunting until I was, I think 16 years old or so. So those first few years were all rifle.

Right.

And he just had his spots and they were pretty much all late season elk spots, like migratory spots. I didn't know that.

Good rifle spots, not good archery spots.

Yeah. And so like, you know, growing up, we'd shoot. Cowell pretty much is like. And that was, that was what we did. And that was like, everyone was stoked.

Like, I don't know.

That is like, I think we need to make Cowell cunning great again, actually, because, like, I feel like there's like a. I don't know, there's like a stigma. People like, oh, dude, I agree. You shot a cow. And like, dude, that be stoked. I don't know. Is there. We're over, quote unquote, overpopulated in some spots. There's a lot of landowners who want cow out. Kill.

Like go kill a cow.

Like, and be proud of it.

Like, that's totally.

I don't know, dude.

I grew up with. My dad was like a spike killer. Like, we just killed spikes, I guess. Like what everyone did, you know, we had been kind of only got spike tags. But like, I grew up. My dad just. We Killed spikes, man. Like crazy.

Yeah. And I still never kill a spike. I'd like to actually someday because a lot of the seasons that I grew up hunting, that was the only elk you couldn't chew.

Right.

Because you could get a cow tag or. Or a bolt egg or a bull tag and it had to be a brow tang. Bu.

Know.

But anyway, yeah, I guess so. We didn't, you know, until I got into college, I didn't like go too far down the rabbit hole. We. We hunted this weekend. Warrior stuff, you know, I was in high school and stuff and shot some cows and that was kind of it. And then really got into it in college and I was like. Started both.

Is that from friends or mentors or.

No, I think I. I just like, you know, I don't know what got me into it. I started. I mean, I went with my dad like the first few years archery hunting, like. Cause he had archery hunted like I don't know how long ago, but he had stopped for quite a few years. He just like, he just wasn't into it. Like, he just kind of didn't. I don't know. I think that it's like not recovering animals. Definitely bummed him out. And not that it bums me out too.

Right.

And it just tends to happen more in archery season. And so I think he's just like, you know what? I'm just machine stuff with a rifle, which.

And I got to think, like, I don't know what year that was, but like, I think back, you know, my dad. My dad was a rifle guy and then got into archery a little bit. But you know, that's like 90s.

Oh yeah. The technology is quite a bit different.

Right.

I mean, it's like. Yeah, it's nothing is. Yeah, well, I killed most of my muzzy broadheads. So all this is all buttocks. Kenny Koei. So, yeah, it's like old technology.

Yeah.

And this like.

Yeah. So he gets out of it. You kind of get back into it.

Yeah. So I wanted to do it. Just whatever. Bugling elk, like, that's. It's so much fun to chase beagle and elk. And so we hunted the first few seasons unsuccessfully doing that. And in college I just started doing a lot more. Just would like stack my schedule so I could get out for at least, you know, three days a week and then.

So when did you kill your first elk?

My first elk, I. I shot my first elk when I was either. But first archery bowl would have been my freshman year college or freshman or sophomore year of college.

Okay, so pretty early success once you get into archery.

Yeah.

A couple seasons of figuring it out.

Yeah. And it's still like, my baseball.

Oh, really? Yeah. No, I'm gonna hear the story then. So what's the story?

Well, I was in college and, like, I think we were just, like. It was like after class going, like, cutting firewood because we had a wood stove in our. In our house. And just, like, glass of milk, like, cutting firewood. And I was like, oh, sweet. I'm gonna come back here in the morning and shoot one. Or. Well, I think I had to come back midday. That's right. Because I had class in the morning and then I was able to get off. So like, just like a. Whatever, Wednesday or something run up. Went to where I found those elk, and it's like mid afternoon. I could start hearing some bugling. I'm sitting in this little meadow where I'd seen him the night before. Like, not a lot of thought going into.

Like, there was el Kirk yesterday.

I went back there today. It was. It was a very difficult spot to get to, I will say that. Like. Cause it was way up on the mountain, just like little meadow surrounded by just miles of timber. And so, yeah, sat there, little raghorn, like, steps out at like, 70, 80 yards. And so I'm, like, stoked. I'm like, sweet, like, you're gonna know. And then, like. But then pretty soon the whole herd comes out, like, just in this big bull. Like, he's like, whatever, just down there. I bugle one time, and he just freaks out and came right in until, like, it was like 35 yards and shot him and then didn't know where. I had just kind of, like, blacked out. And then.

Right.

And then, like, freaked out. I saw a bull standing down with the rest of the herd after I shot it disappeared from. Saw the bull and could not figure out what's going on. He walked into the timber. And so, like, I spent like an hour looking for the bull in that spot. And it's like, no blood. No blood. So I was just freaking out. And I walked up to where I had shot from, and he was laying there, like, you know, like 40 yards. And he was laying there dead. So I was just looking at a different, like, the wrong spot the whole time. But anyway, yeah, I had no idea what I shot either, because, like, we. I, like, my family had, like, an elk camp forever, and they shot elk every year. Like, they've killed so many elk in the same couple drainages, but we never killed bulls that were, you Know, thick. Like, they're like five point, little. Six little six points. Like, I think maybe one of them hit like 300 inches over the course of probably like 150 elk. Like, that's just what.

Right.

Big bulls weren't a thing. We didn't, you know, we bought big balls.

Six points. You're like, oh, it was a six point.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so like, I don't know, but so when I killed this bull, I was like, oh, wow, this is a lot bigger than anything else. And I'd seen and I had no idea what it was. And so like, we never scored anything. Right. And so like, we like, oh, we should score this thing. See how it scores. And like put a tape to it. And then like, like, oh, sweet. And I scored it at 300 inches. And then someone was looking at it and they're like, dude, that is. That is not 300 inches. They're like, what did you do? And I'm like, oh, I measured like, I measured the main beams, I measured tines, and it was like 300 inches. Like, did you do mass measurements? I was like, no, it was like 350. Like, just miss 350. 349. And that's all. Yeah. So that's still my. It's still my biggest bull. Yeah. And then they've like kind of continually gone down.

Get smaller and smaller every year.

No. So that was a fun one. But. Yeah, no, it's. That definitely got me hooked. I. I was. I mean, I was already. Yeah. Because we. I had plenty of encounters before I was successful that. Yeah. So archery. Okay. And it's. It's just really hard for me to not shoot a bull when it's bugling, I think. But there's definitely something to it. Like you said, a lot of like these guys were. Are consistent big bull killers. They don't call. But it's so much fun.

It is so much fun. It's a tough thing. Like, you know, it's. I always say in Montana, I wish you could have a white tail tag and a mule deer tag. I also wish, like, you could have like one hunt every year where you can like call bulls like crazy and then one where like whatever, doing hun, big bowl, open country, like a little bit of both. And I actually, I love having a rifle tag for elch and an archery tag. And when I was, you know, in college and all that, I was die hard archery. Like, I, Yeah, I thought I was archery. Only loved archery and I didn't hunt rifle. So my dad was a Big rifle, elk hunter. And I, you know, grew up rifle hunting. Then I got. My cousins were all into archery, so I started pretty young because they were quite a bit older. So like, you know, followed my cousin. Like I'm the archery hunter and all these things. And I didn't get back into rifle until, I don't know, like six, eight years later. And I really took. I, I love our rifle elk hunting as well. So it's like, for me, man, I'd love to have bow tags where it's like you're hunting the rut with a bo and then late season. That's why Montana is so great because you can kind of default to that rifle tech.

We're spoiled for sure.

Yeah. Do you, I mean, were you. Because you do. I mean, you late rifle hunt as well too. So it's just.

Yeah, for sure. Like if I still have a tag, then I'll definitely go out.

Yeah.

But it's. Yeah. If I don't get it done in archery season, I'm pretty sad.

Yeah.

But it is, I don't know, the, the. Right. The late rifle stuff is intriguing at this. Like, I just, I start to get uneasy if I still have an elk tank in my pocket.

Yeah. But like, I mean, you had the Wyoming tag. You guys went to Idaho on. That late hunt that you guys filmed was really good. That kind of hunt, like, to me.

That'S like, oh, it's fun. Yeah, it's like, it's totally different.

Definitely different game.

Yeah, definitely. And like, if I knew that there's going to be an amazing weather year, then it'd be a lot easier for me to hold out to.

Yeah.

I did get a hunt that I think like two years ago. Or was it. Oh, it was actually it was the year that I had the bear poteg because I didn't kill in archery and I ended up hunting that rifle season. It was a big snow year, so it was pretty fun.

Yeah. Did you do it on skis?

No, that was in Wyoming.

Because you're like a big skier. When you drew that late Wyoming tag, you like skied in, didn't you?

We did, yeah. But that was like, it was cool and the pictures are cool. It's like it was not that far.

Right.

So it's not like. Yeah, we like ski toured. We have this mountain like now. We ski toured because it was convenient, but we only. Right three quarters of a mile. Oh.

I mean, do you think that's like a useful tactic for those late season things?

I think it can be because Drake had Those photos.

I remember, like, photos of Drake doing it.

Yeah.

And he likes, I don't know far. You know, if it was just for the photos.

I mean, when you get to a certain, like, threshold with snow. For sure. Like I. Because I have, I've snowshoed, I've ski toured. And in most like, snow conditions, I much prefer ski touring. It's just like, I feel like you have better float. You can like glide a little more. It's like less energy used. There are conditions where snowshoes are better, for sure. But those skis and skins are pretty nice, like for just covering ground. And so if you could just. Yeah, it just like, depends on the scenario.

I've always wanted to kill maybe just a cow elk. I just want to kill a cow on skis. Like, do something cool, right? Like, just different. I said I was gonna do it last year, never ended up doing it. But it's one of those things you kind of gotta like, go do better. Oh, it seems cool to me.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. No, it is. Like, whenever you can combine like a couple different things, it's this, like, adds to the adventure. Whether you're like totally rafting into a spot, skiing into a spot, whatever it might be. Yeah, I have to take a dirt bike up single track trail or something.

So when it comes to like September, when you talk about, let's say hypothetically, you're going to a new mountain range, want to walk through kind of your, like, system, start to beginning. Like, how do you learn a unit? You spend a lot of time scouting, you spend a lot of time doing those things you rely on that. I would say don't let any foot worse. Yeah, but like, like, what's your, like, like new mountain range, you draw an area. Like, how are you going about figuring it out?

I mean, if it's. Well, let's say if it's before the rut, like, if I'm doing it in the summer, it's just like. And even if it is rut, still cover as much ground as possible. And like, so if they're not, it's not during the ruts.

When does your summer scout start?

Summer scout? Let's. So I'll just like cover ground and then if I'm seeing rubs or wallows or whatever, you just like, we're lucky that elk leave residual signs. Like, especially when they're running. So if I know I'm coming there in September, it's like, where are the rubs? Where are the wallows? Like, where am I seeing a bunch of elk sign and like, you. Once you've seen elk, elk country, you start to recognize it too. And so you can get a lot from looking at, you know, maps and imagery and everything of, like, are you.

More interested in, like, getting on glassing points and glassing, or are you, like, covering drainage bottom?

Um, both. So I like covering ground. Like, I like walking through areas because I just feel like you start to notice, like, you'll walk through a patch of lodge pole that's like, this is where rut fest happened once and it's probably going to happen again. Like, there's rubs every, like, you know, 20ft or something like that. It's like waypoint. I'm going to come back here.

Yeah.

You know, but then once this gets. Once it gets to August, like, yeah, get up high and this glass discovery ground and like, because you. You start to just, like, put together pieces of the puzzle. Like, okay, the bulls are here. They're kind of up high. The cows are over there. They're going to be somewhere in that vicinity, you know, between that those two spots.

How good are you at e scouting versus, like, figuring out boots on the ground? Is it like, are you like, one of those guys who can be like, I'm gonna throw a dart while I'm e scouting and it's probably gonna be out there, or is it generally?

I mean, for. I don't get me wrong, I like looking at maps, but I way prefer getting on the ground.

Oh, really?

Like, but you. Especially if you're, like, going to another state or something. Like, then I'll look at maps, like, a lot. I'll just look at so much satellite.

Depends on how much I'm going to be able to get there.

Yeah, for sure.

If I only can drive two states away and go one time, then I'm definitely going to spend a lot of time on the east coast.

Yeah. But for, like, Montana, like, it's just. Well, I'm just going to go there. I'm just going to drive there. Like, it's very common for us to drive five, six hours weekend to just go. We're gonna hunt a new area this year. I'm stoked for it. I've already been there four times this year.

There's something so exciting about going to a new spot and getting this. Like, you, you. I put so much more effort when I'm like, going to a new place. I'm, like, constantly scouting it, and I just want to go. I'm like, hey, I just want to go. Put boots on the ground. Yeah, it's Fun.

It's just, well. And like, not only do you learn like, like I said, like rubs and wallows and whatever, but just like what roads are open, what. What's the trail? Like, how easy is it to walk in this way versus walking the other way? And like, you just learn a lot. Whereas. Or looking at water, like what streams are like, okay, this is obviously a year round stream versus like, oh, it's gonna be dry come September.

Yeah.

You start to put together pieces.

Yeah.

Figure it out. But yeah, new spots. Like, I love hunting new spots for a while. Is this like trying to see how many mountain ranges can I milk in? Like, rather than just like going back to the same train?

Dude. I think one of the most underrated skills, and for me it was out of necessity, but it was like just being able to go a new place and find elk.

Yeah.

It sucks at first because every time you go somewhere new, you can't find elk. It's a struggle. But like, once you get good at that, that's the greatest skill because you can go to any unit and find elk and kind of break it down. You said, like, you show up the first two days where you're just like checking roads, trying to figure out where things go, how to get to places, you know, and like every trail, not even trailhead or like whatever, you could tell how well, how much it gets used, how much it doesn't get used. Looking for those like little spots that don't seem like they're a trailhead, if you know for sure.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and then like even in travel management for like the Forest Service, like in some districts, like what maps are available online or extremely accurate and you can trust like, oh, yeah, these are the roads that are open. And then other places. No, that's like, if you can get a vehicle there, there's a road there.

Yeah.

Depends on the area and like how much enforcement and just what the culture is there too, of like, it's like, because there's nothing worse than when you like hike in like five miles and then rolls by on a side by side.

Like, oh, yeah, there's like, there's like rules and then there's rules.

What actually happens?

There's this place in Idaho I used to hunt all the time. Like, yeah, sure, the signs all say, but like, no one follows that rule there.

Generally. Yeah. Forest Service is a little more reliable. BLM is like, oh, it's the wild west in a lot of places.

Totally, totally. Yeah. If you have a lot of blm, like, just assume people are Just riding everywhere.

Yeah.

Making tracks wherever. I tried this bull on an Idaho hunt. That place I hunted for a long time. Didn't hunt. Drew late rifle and like, I'm on this good bull, this whole herd. There's not a road over there. I am, I'm. I know that for a fact. Not only it wasn't even just like a four wheeler went across there. Here comes this old like 98 Dodge just going through the sage brush, you know, like, you can hear tools in the back just. And it's like, these elk. I'm like, watching the dodge come, I'm like, where is he coming from? And like, as he gets close to these elk just like, take off. I'm like, what was the point of that? You know, like, it's just one of those things. So frustrating. Anyway, back to, like, your system. So summer boots on the ground, cover ground, looking for sign. Let's assume, you know, in August you kind of have a good idea. Back to the your point. I was like, I kind of know where the cows are, kind of where the bulls are. You're going into season opening weekend pretty good. Kind of got the rough idea of how things lay out.

Yeah, for sure.

What's your, like, where do you. Where are you at opening weekend?

So, I mean, I feel like it used to be less this way, but opening day of archery season has started to become like a pretty big catalyst. Like, like, it used to be like, it was kind of just a soft opening and like, stuff that like, yeah, sure, hunters are in the field, but now it's like, no, no, there's pressure on opening day because like, rifle season, it's like, it marks a big switch to me, like, of like, okay, everything's different after opening, like, first 10 minutes. And it's starting to become that way in archery season. A little more so too. So it's like, okay, well, if I have an opening day plan, like, and it all depends on what elk I'm going after and like, but if they were somewhat close to a road or trail, it's like, yeah, that's probably gonna be somebody's hunting those elk.

Yeah.

Opening day, maybe I can get an opening morning.

But after that, it's all bets are up.

Yeah. I mean, there's always exceptions to the rule, but yeah. And it's still like, I just love covering ground. So it's just like, you know, if I have like an opening day play, I usually don't get too fired up unless it's my wife. That's usually our opening day play is like, let's go kill you a raghoor. She does not care about size at all. And so I'm like, three years in a row, she shot a Rayhorn winning day.

Really?

Yeah.

Like, calling it an.

This one.

Do you think that's an easy time to call in an.

Any bowl, not any ball?

No, I mean, like, sorry, when I say any bull.

Oh, like, easy. Yes. I. I generally, I feel like. I don't know.

That's a good time to get it done.

Yeah, I. I guess we've been successful doing it, but generally speaking, it's like.

Do you have that herd kind of figured out and then you, like, just slip in and call and.

It depends. I feel like I'm. It's so variable on each year. Like, I don't. I don't have a standardized system by any means. It's just like, sometimes I have spent a bunch of time in there in the summer and knowing, like, have a pretty good idea where everything's going to be at other times, like, literally rolling and blind in the dark. And so that works. But I would say my biggest strategy is adapting to the situations in front of me. Like, if whatever I'm doing is not working, I'm going to pivot and do something different. Like, there was. We had the whole week of opening week off one time, and we hunted seven mountain ranges in seven days. Wow. Wow, that's.

That's crazy.

Hey. Part of it was this, like, we got. One of them was like, block management. They got closed because of fire danger. And so, like, all right, we have to love here. And then, like, we go to another spot. And like, the drainage that I like is just, like, completely full of hunters and, like, this pivot. And so it was just like, yeah, just adapting where some people. I feel like it's just like, no, this is my plan. I'm sticking to this drainage. I'm going to figure out these elk in this drainage. And I'm like, no, too many people. I'm going to the next one. Or. Yeah, the elk aren't like, there's not a hot cow in this drainage. They're just not rutting yet. I'm going to go do something different.

Dude, that's interesting when you talk about opening week. And I've always said, like, opening week, there's a bull going crazy somewhere on the mountain.

Oh, yeah.

Always, like, cover enough ground. You'll figure it out.

Yeah.

But, like, so many people. Oh, just elk aren't talking. I was like, I've. I don't know how many times it'd be 90 degrees and there's a bull going crazy. And, like, you just know that somewhere, maybe it's not the elk you're around, but somewhere on the mountain or a mountain, I should say, you might have to cover two or three, but like, somewhere there's an elk going crazy if you cover enough ground.

Yeah.

I don't know if that's still true, but I think for a long time that was very true. Probably still true today.

I have a feeling.

Yes.

And, yeah, I mean, depending on. Especially if it's a sizable herd, there's a decent amount of elk in that unit. There's going to be some hot cow. Yeah. If you're dealing with. Because there's some places where it's like, okay, you're dealing with, like, less than a hundred elk for, you know, an area. Right. Maybe not there, but. Right. But, yeah, definitely. I am the wrong guy to ask about killing a big bull because I haven't done it, like, on opening weekend. All. All of the better bulls I've killed have been later in the season, for sure.

No, I think most people, you know, in this podcast, the Elka Podcast, we usually talk about, like, what we call 201, which is consistently killing six points. So I think. And I think that's where most people are, in my opinion, is like, I want to kill a six point every year.

Like, yeah, that's great.

That's. I mean, that's a very successful, if you will.

Yeah. Because one thing I keep telling myself I want to try on that, like, beginning of the season is like finding the wallows and trying.

I was gonna. I was gonna ask you because you had mentioned wallows and rubs. So I was like, do you ever do that?

And I have. Not successfully, because I'm incredibly impatient. That's my excuse. So I'm curious, like, do you have success? Like, do you do the wallow game or.

I've done it not successfully. Never killed one off a wallow. Possibly that. So there was a year I found. There's a couple years I tried this where it was like, I'd find these wallows. Bulls use them like crazy. Game cams, all the things. Opening week, nothing. And it's just like, you know, like, I don't like just timing. I think a lot of times when I lived in Oregon, I do feel like it was easier because opening day would be like, the 27th, 28th of August. Much easier in Montana. I am of the. I do think the rut starts a little bit later here than, say, new Mexico or something like that. But I do feel like by the 6th or 7th of March of September, bulls are on a different, you know.

Oh, they definitely changed. I feel like there's like.

Right.

But yeah, like through August, like a lot of those bull. Again, like, not my area of expertise by any means, but it seems like they're just kind of by themselves hitting those wallows pretty consistently. And then there's a light switch somewhere in that first week. I don't even think it's necessarily because of hunting pressure. I think it's just because they. They smell a hot cow.

Oh, yeah. I think it's just like the natural cycle.

Yeah.

And I do think, like, you can definitely be successful, you know, opening weekend. Right. If you had a wallow and I had a bull, this was in Montana, really big bowl. And I found him preseason and he was kind of using the same spot over and over and there was like a water hole and they were kind of wallowing on the edge of this pond or whatever. And I was like, I mean, honestly, best option, like, he was still with three other bulls on opening weekend. And so it was like, best option is like this water hole. Right. And so I sat it a few times and I actually stayed pretty high both the days I sat it. The wind was really goofy down there. And so I was like, I'm just gonna stay high and we're. I'll try to stock in once, once they commit and twice, like, bowl, like smaller bowls came to the water hole or whatever. So, like, it would have worked if I was just looking for anything.

Yeah.

But so many times and like, I have, you know, how many cameras on water tanks and stuff that never worked out. But I. Then again, like, I. I just did a podcast with Lucas and Lucas was talking about, you know, like, having killing bulls on water. Like, I think it definitely works. I would say water over wallow.

Oh, okay.

Would you say water or sit wallow?

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Stoneglacier.com you know, I don't know. I, I'm, I'm too inexperienced to give a, a valid opinion on that. I feel like.

The problem I always had is that like I would hear a bugle and I would like leave the tree stand and go for the bugle every time.

It's so hard.

Go. Yeah, that happened multiple times.

To be patient, like.

Yeah.

And maybe it'd be different if I get like one of those New Mexico or Arizona tags or something. But like, that's the other problem is like so many of the places that I've hunted have been extremely water rich environments.

Right.

It's just like mountain country, Western Montana is this like. Yeah. You're in the mountains, there's water everywhere and like, okay, cool. There's a wallow. There's also like 10 more on the same hillside.

Yeah.

So it's like you. But occasionally you get to one where you're like, all right, this thing is getting hit hard. Like there's just so much activity in here. Then those are like tempting to sit. I just, I've done it a couple times and then just get too impatient. Like you said, you hear bugles and like they're not coming over here. I'm like, I'm gonna go chase them, go cut them up.

I actually think if, like, if I had to gun to the heads, sit in a, whatever, tree stand, saddle, whatever, I would sit a saddle or a good trail before I sat a wallop.

Yeah.

I don't know why, but I do feel like I know a lot of successful guys that, you know, if you get to where you can pattern like a herd is a little bit different. It seems like herds don't hit the wallows as consistently. Like you'll get the bulls that hit it or whatever.

Yeah.

But like a herd, I can think of a few buddies that have, you know, pattern a group of elk and then opening week they're still in that pattern and it's like, okay, they're, they're going through this saddle or they're taking this trail every day. You know, throw up a tree, stand there and I am, I don't know, I don't Know if there's any truth to this, but I do think that like, man, wallows tend to be really bad wind areas too.

Oh yeah. Because they're usually in a little basin. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna swirl.

Not great. And I think like that's, I don't know, a piece of the puzzle for me is like every time I've tried to sell a wall, I'm like, man, the wind is just going everywhere. And then I'm like, ah, this. I shouldn't be here. I'm just getting back.

No, that checks out. Do you think that like some of the bigger bulls are with cows on that oak, like right at the very beginning of the season? Because I always. And again, like, it's hard to say because it's just like how big is my sample size? Is it, is it like anecdotal that I'm seeing? But it's like to me it's. I feel like a lot of those bigger bowls are staging almost until that like first. And again, this, I'm thinking like September 1st, like by the 10th, I would expect him to be probably with cat, like with the cows. But like, it almost seems like you start to see some of those five points and smaller sixes, like running the herd.

I think generally speaking you're going to get like 320 bulls, 300 bulls, 300 inch bull. So everyone has their own category of big.

Yeah.

And, and let's just use age class, for example. Like let's say your five, six year olds might come in at early and they're going to be, they're usually vocal before, you know, the early kicks off. They think they're like, you know, running the herd. Right. And so like, oh, herd bull. Well, you know, the seven, eight, nine year olds are like waiting, like you said, in the wing, in the shadows over there. And then I feel like you're 9, 10, 11 year olds are like, wait till the rut. Yeah, it's full on. I would love, if the study exists, I would love to see it. But like what the age class is of bulls that enter a herd and at what time?

Right.

Because they do feel like it's the younger bulls and then like the younger bulls will be fighting over it. And then like you get the, you know, a little bit older bulls and then like the older, like I feel like the real old bulls that I've experienced almost, they all have their own personality and this, you know, they're not all the same. But a lot of those older bulls will be the type of bull that'll just come in whenever they feel like it.

Yeah.

And, like, they don't hang out with her. They don't babysit to her.

No.

There's exceptions to every rule.

Right.

But, like, that's.

Yeah, I've definitely witnessed that. Yeah.

Where you just, like.

Like, okay, there's a nice bull that's running this herd.

Yeah.

And then it's like, right at last light, like, from a different patch of timber, all of a sudden comes a much bigger bull.

Yeah.

And this, like, comes in and, like, kicks that guy out. And, like, all right, these are mine for the night.

Yeah.

Oh. Like, he wasn't even with him the whole day. He's just, like, in his own little patch. And it's like, I came over first.

Time I experienced this. There's this bull I was chasing in Idaho. This is circa 2009 or 10, and just a growler dinosaur bull. And he. I found him in, like, an evening. He was going off, and then I. I stayed and listened to him, like, at night, and I could hear multiple balls, and I backed all the way out, went to camp. I came back super early. It was like three in the morning. And I was like, want to get in there? He. I could hear him. I heard him one or two times, like, in the dark. I was like, oh. Like, I thought I had it. You know, I slipped in. I get to probably 150 yards, maybe 100 yards, as this cracking daylight. I hadn't heard him, but I hadn't heard him in a while, so, like, didn't concern me. And then I get right into the herd, and I'm like, sub hundred. And it's like this five by six that's, like, running the herd. I'm like, what happened? Like, I'm like, there's no way a 5x6 kicked that other bull's butt, you know, I was like, I. I could. I was like, how do you even hunt a big bull? They just disappear in the dark, you know? Yeah. Like, here's this five by six who just was super aggressive and, like, acted like he ran the herd. I was like, that's not what happened. Something else happened here. And, like, that was the first experience that went on to hunt that bull for multiple years. And, like, he would do that. He's rarely be in the herd hear him. And.

Yeah, that's super interesting.

He's gone. They're, like, impossible to hunt.

That's wild.

Yeah.

Yeah. I. I mean, I've definitely seen those scenarios, like, where, yeah, this smaller bull is running a hurt and, like, I think even in the moment sometimes I'm just like, oh, man. Maybe that bull's just. He's just a good fighter. He's just a badass. But like you said, it's like, not bigger. Bull's probably just staging somewhere else coming in.

But I'd say I love. You know, my favorite week. I don't know about you, but my favorite week is probably September 7th to 14th. And it's like, that's when those big bulls start, you know, coming out of the woodworks. And then they can be very callable, too. You know, sometimes just like three cow calls, Here comes a great six by six. You're like, what? Where did he come from?

Oh, yeah, definitely, like, some of the best action I've ever had. Just in terms of Volvo Elk. Elk on the move. Just. Yeah, it's been. We've killed a lot of elk in those dates for.

So if you had done one week, what would it be?

Yeah, probably 10 through the. Or. Well, yeah, starting the 10th through, like, 17th or 20th or whatever. Somewhere in there.

I do feel like Montana. Like, I really like the later dates in Montana. It could be hit and miss. But yeah, like, you also get some really good red action.

I will say that. Yeah, the best days that I ever had have been like, that October 1st and. But I don't know how much of that's just a fluke. Just catching it right. You're in the right place at the right time. Like, average. Like, I've had a lot of really amazing days right. Mid September, you know, that 15th mark. Ish. And then. But yeah, occasionally in October, tail end of September, it's just wild.

The nice thing about October versus, like, third week of September, I would say the third week of September, you're gonna get everyone. Every non resident is there. Like, they all choose that week.

Yeah.

So, like, It's a catch 22. It's the best elk days, but it's also the worst human days.

The highest honey.

Yeah. The highest hunting pressure. And so, like, I would personally take earlier or later.

Yeah.

And not have the human pressure. I really think that, like, October, man, people drop off. Right. Like, for sure.

Well, once, like, a lot of the serious winners have killed their elk, and then a lot of people just give by then. And if you're a non resident that's traveling and you get your one week or two weeks, like, you burn it up. Are you going to put your two weeks into the very end of season?

Right.

Probably not. Like, which doesn't really.

Because they still only. Yeah. They're only heading two weeks. They're like, I don't want to wait till the end.

Yeah. But story I have no sense.

But I do feel like I try to avoid humans more than I try to find elk. Even, like, from like a finding elk perspective, like, you know, going back to e scouting or whatever, it's like I'm trying to get away from humans more than I'm. Because, like, that's where the elk will be.

Especially in rifle season. Like Archer season. Yeah. But then, like, rifle season, like, compound that to a higher extent.

Yeah. Like, how do we get away from people? And I think people e scout and they just look at habitat as like, oh, this is perfect elk habitat. Doesn't really matter if there's eight ATVs and. And, you know, six wall tents in that. In that drainage. There's not going to be a single elk in there.

Yeah, for sure. Unless it's like a. It works in some special permanent areas, like, you know, filmed a few hunts where it's, like, really amazing spot and it's like. Oh, yeah. Literally just go wherever there's good habitat.

Yeah.

They'll be elk, like, in the middle of the road, but yeah, in most public land, general units, like. Yeah, that's not gonna work. Yeah. It's funny. Oh, one thing that I was thinking when you were talking before. Do you know Jesse at J2 taxidermy? He does, like, skull cleaning. Right. And the reason I bring it up is I went to his shop and he had all of the elk skulls would come in from the year in order that they came in. So basically it was like a sample what was killed at the beginning of the season. Interesting. Like progressing through archery season.

Yeah.

And it was like there was like maybe one or two, six points early, like, and they weren't. They weren't giants there. You know, there's some nice bulls early, but the vast majority were rare horns and five points. And then you started to see, like, your balls. Bigger balls. Like, the further it got interesting in September.

Interesting.

And then it just kind of like stayed like, you know, a mixture of ray horns and bigger bulls. Like, towards the end of the archery season, I was just like, huh, that's like, super interesting. Yeah, it is. Like, there were not that many big bulls killed in that first little bit.

Interesting.

Which I found very interesting. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense.

It does.

But, like, you think that somebody would. There'd be a few that are, like, big, whatever patterned or, you know, shooting one off a water wall or something. But it's Just like, huh, Definitely.

If you had to kill, I won't say a raghorn, you had to kill a mature bull. Could be five point, could be six point. Like, gun to your head. Have to get it done this year. Like, what would. What would you do differently than what you already do?

Call less, call only when it makes absolute sense. And I tried to do this. We had the special permit because, like, I knew, because I. This. I don't know. You talk to some of these guys who like this every single year, killing big bulls. Just like, so many of them that I know. Don't. Don't ever call.

Yeah.

And it's like, you just gotta work in, cut off the bull, like, wait till he makes a mistake and, like, get between him and his cows or cut him off. And so, like, I tried that a bunch, and it was, like, pretty successful. And we essentially did that when Kara killed her. Bullshit. But I did end up calling it in, like. And so I was just like, do not call. Do not call. Like, it got into a position where I thought it was going to be perfect. And then, like, when he started coming towards us, like, wasn't quite the right trajectory. So wait until we got real close and it's like, bugled one time, and then he came in at 15 yards and she killed it. And so it was just like, I don't know. I need to get better at it. I keep telling myself that I'm gonna. Like, last year I had to revert back to, like, I just need to kill it now because, like, there was a big bull, like, less than 200 years away. This one's close. I'm shooting.

Yeah.

Five by six.

So, like, what is that difference? Because you're talking about the bear paws. I love that concept. You're like, oh, I need to call last because this is a better tag.

It did. Yeah. Well, I was. It was not necessarily because it was a better tag as much as it was, like, I was trying to target her bulls. And I've just, like, I have tried to call in plenty of herd bulls in life, and I've. I have called them in for sure, right? Like this challenge bugling, it's usually like, wait till you get really close and challenge people is what's been successful for me. Like, Cal, I've never cow called in, like, a really big bull. I've only bugled them in, like, challenge at close range. Obviously people do, but, like, we've cow called in stupid amounts of breadcore.

Right.

And so it was like, cow calling was, like, rarely a thing Unless it was maybe trying to, like, locate something or just, you know, but interesting. So, yeah, I don't know. I. I would probably. I would. I wouldn't leave my calls at home, but I would try to try to do that game where it's just like, be more patient and wait for the bull to make a mistake. And I. I'm. I'm telling myself now that I'm gonna try to do that this year because I'm gonna hunt the brakes and like, hopefully kill. I. It doesn't have to be a giant, but I, like, I just would like to kill a mature bull this year. Just like, all right, shot my little five by six last year. I can try. I'll try to hold out a little bit. Yeah.

If you don't kill anything the next year, you're like, I just gotta get something killed. It's like this, like, you know, it's funny. There's a. I love the analogy of when a. How should I say, if I'm shooting my compound, but I try to get into trad. Bow range, I'll always be successful. But if I only try to get the compound range, I might not get there. Right. And so, like, play the game. Play the stock for the closer, you know, like, if you're only trying to get to 60, you almost always get to 100 and then you can't close it. But if I'm trying to get to 20 yards, getting to 60 is easy. Right. And I think the same could be said for calling the. What you said about calling that bull is like, if, you know, great callers only have to call a bowl 10% of the way. Like, just. It's just out of. Just out of his way a little bit.

Yeah.

A rookie caller is trying to call a bull across a canyon and it doesn't work. Right. You're like, he's. You're trying to overuse the call. Like, they're like, oh, just go, there's elk that bull bugled. They don't know which way he's going. They don't know what he's doing. But no bull bugle. We're going to get within 200 and try to call him over to us. Or 300.

Yeah.

And it's like, it doesn't work well. It's like, well, he was going this way, and you try to call him this way.

Yeah, you got to figure out what he's doing.

But if you got in front of him and you only had to call him 20 yards, that's really easy. So it's Kind of the same conceptual idea behind getting into trad bow range. It's like if I always got in front of the bull.

Yeah.

I always only had to call him a little bit. Then calling work much better. Right. It's a lot easier.

That's a good way to look at it because I've definitely like had that thought process going from archery to rifle season of like sometimes it's just like you think about shooting cross canyon and stuff. Yeah, no, like I'm going to think about this like archery because it's going to be so easy to get to like 150 yards.

That's a great example.

Like, and just like have a slam dunk shot. Like instead of like, oh my shoes, 500 yards across the skin.

Totally. And it's like you could easily. When you have a long range gun, you can easily be like, you know, we're going to get to 700. And it's like, well, if I had a bowl, it wouldn't be that hard to get to 100. You know, like there's exceptions to that rule. But in general it's a good like framework to like, okay, how can we get closer? But I think so many people, you know, they get cross canyon of a bull and he's talking, you know, it's like it's very tempting to want to try to call him over. It's like a little bit, you know, it's like, oh, just call him over. And it like almost never works.

Yeah. Unless it's a rape horn. And you just.

You know, that's funny about that is like I always, I've spent most of my life only targeting herd bulls and raghorns get in the way constantly.

Oh yeah.

I always tell people, I'm like, just go hunt the herd bowl and you'll accidentally run into spikes and raghorns. But I think it's this for the same reason. Like you're just doing things differently.

Yeah.

And then they're always in the way. It's like, man, every time I blow a cow call, raghorn comes in.

Yeah.

And you're like, there's a guy out there who's like, how do I kill a raghorn? But he's, you know, he's doing it a little bit differently. And the. And I think it's tough for people to like comprehend. Like, if you only hunted herd bulls, you would run into ratcorns all the time. Yeah, that's. So you just hunted that way. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know though.

People can kind of that Is interesting, too. Like, yeah. Having, like, a special permit or just hunting in areas that have more elk. Like, how many smaller balls screw you up is insane. Like, because that's like, again, like, northwestern Montana, just, like, the herds are smaller, fewer or farther between, I feel like. And, like, it definitely happens still. But, like, yeah, hunting the brakes, it's just like, oh, my God, how do I get close to that thing? There's, like, 20 other elk that are in the way, and I have to, like, somehow, like, get through, get around, like, whatever. So, yeah, that is an interesting aspect to it.

Yeah. Which I don't know. Like, I think that's. Once you try to start targeting those herd bowls, like, you know, you're. How you go about it shifts. Right. Like, how you. Like, that's the thing I always try to tell people is, like, if you just start hunting that way, everything gets it a little bit easier. Like, I think if I was a new hunter and I just want to kill any elk, I don't say you're doing it wrong, but you're just kind of going out and calling. You're doing blind. A lot of blind setups. And it's like, you're not being like, if you only knew what it. What the tactics are to kill. Like, a herd bowl would make killing a spike seem really easy.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So have you killed, like, of the herd bulls you've killed, has it been one tactic that's worked best over others, or have you used multiple?

I mean, I spent a huge chunk of my life calling a lot.

Okay.

And I, you know, thought I could call on every elk. Then I moved to Montana, and I really wanted to, like, hunt big bull, so I was, like, hunting open country.

Yeah.

So, like, definitely switched. I think I can do both. I like, for me, I just want to learn all the tactics and have every tool in the toolbox. So, like, you show up to a scenario, I want to be able to do any of it. So I've killed open country spawn stock. I've killed. You know, I've definitely called in a lot.

Gotcha.

Cal called in Herdboard, you know, like, early season. So a little bit of everything.

Little mixture of tactics. It's not like, one.

I do think, like, the biggest problem for people who, like. And people listening to this podcast, you know, you'll listen to a hundred interviews of people who do it different ways, and then you'll be confused as shit about what to do. So, like, you know, it's really tough, and you're like, Sean Mellon said, do this Brian Varney said to do this, and, you know, Marcus said do this, and it's like, what do I do? I think you find, like, your two or three things that work and, like, try to just master those techniques. Like having three really good plays. You have these three play trick plays that you're like, hey, here's how we execute, and there's, like, some variance. Right. I don't know. That's, like, my advice. Like, do you feel like you, like, what would.

Well, again, like, I. I'm probably not the best person to ask about this because I've only done it a handful of times, so, like, killing herd bull. But I. I feel like just, like, using whatever scenario presents itself and being able to adapt to the moment. Like, if you're solely stuck on spot and stock and just, like, your mind is, like, focused on one thing, then you're gonna maybe miss opportunities to cut him off on his way to transition between water and feed or bed into feed or whatever it is. Or if you're solely focused on calling one in, then maybe you'll, like, miss that midday stock opportunity. There's just, like. So. I don't know. It's just, like, re. Like, recognizing when those weaknesses present themselves and knowing when to go in and make the play.

Dude. I think callers have this issue where it's like, the famous saying is when all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails. And, like, people will have that bugle tube, and it's like, all they want to do is, like, call. And it's like, put the call down for a second. Like, that bull is on a very vulnerable place. You could just spot. You could just stalk.

Oh, yeah.

Right up and not blow it.

Yeah.

And that's. That's tough because it's like, once you get in this mindset, you've been calling for days, and, like, you're going through that, it's just. It's natural to, like, just use that. But, like, to your point, like, looking for those opportunities.

Yeah, I think I witnessed that once filming with Corey Jacobson. I was filming him, and, you know, he's caller. He was calling Elkin, and we tried calling Elkin, like, for over. I think it was, like, eight days or something. And then finally there's just, like, this bullet bedded kind of out in the open, but, like, in stockable terrain. It's like, I guess I just have to spot in stock.

Yeah, man.

Like, let's go kill that thing. And he did. He, like, snuck in and killed it.

Yeah, it's really Tough. Like, you're in this mindset. Right. And that's why I like having a few tools. Like, you're like, okay, you know, do I slip in and use the C call? Do I just get in silent and not do anything? Or do I challenge people? Like, just, like, being able to execute those three plays really well, not getting, like, overwhelmed with, like, oh, what do I do? Do I do this, do I do that? It's like, oh, which of these three is going to work in that scenario? I. I think when you're, you know, first starting out, trying to figure it out, just get close. Elk.

Yeah. And that's like. And that's the thing. It's like getting close and letting them make the mistake. Letting that bull make the mistake. Like, where is he gonna present that opening? Like, just 100%. Yeah. Because I. I've definitely been way too aggressive, like you said. It's like, just getting close and beetling and, like, work sometimes.

Yeah.

Not all the time.

Data, you said something earlier. I forgot to come back to it. But you. You know, we were talking about seven mountain ranges in seven days. How do you know when to pull out? How to. When do you back out of an area? Or when do you, like, stick it out? Because a lot of, you know, a lot of elk hunting is persistence and, like, sticking it out.

Yeah.

And again, it's, like, bouncing to the other side of the state.

I'm, again, probably not the wrong person because I. That's a little extreme. I don't, like.

Don't do that.

Like, we burnt a lot of fuel and a lot of wasted time in the scheme of things, but it was just like this. It wouldn't feel right. Like, something about it, like, in one circumstance, like, we got shut down because of the fires, so we couldn't go there. But then a lot of times it's hunting pressure or just like, I'm not seeing what I would expect for elk. Like, even sometimes, like, okay, there are elk here, but they're not fired up or. I didn't see, like, a bull that was like, there's some cows and there's no bowl with it. It's like, okay, what's going on? Like, I'm just. I'm gonna leave. I'll come back later. But, like, I'll just, like, if. And like, I don't know, like, there's always, like, the same. Like, don't leave elk to find elk. But I. I disagree. I disobey that all the time of, like, no, these elk aren't playing the way That I want them to play or they're in a tough spot or cuz like sometimes there's drainages too or the wind is just like always crappy and so it's just like, nope, not gonna mess with those. Like the wind's crapping there. Like I'm just gonna spook them. Like I don't need to waste my time.

That takes so much experience. But that is some of the greatest insight is that I think when you're early you're, you just, you found elk. Like oh my gosh, we found out we have elk. And like there's just elk. Some elk. That is not going to happen.

Yeah.

For whatever reason. And I, I see a lot of people do that same thing where it's like you're in elk but man, either they're just not talking or there's not even a bull there or like you can't really figure it out and the wind's bad. Like. And I've, I have watched bunnies spend five or six days hunting one herd of elk and then like on a seven or eight day hunt, like they spent their whole time like, oh, it's never happened. That's tough because it's like if you're not good at finding elk, it can feel like man, I, like we have the thing in front of us. Like we should just stick with this one. I don't know if I have great advice on like when to hold them and when to fold them.

But like well, in September you have the luxury of like you said, somewhere if it's, if it's September, somewhere there is an elk that is buling his head off.

Yeah.

Somewhere. And like should I find it? You have like if you're not hearing elk or seeing elk, then do not stay in that area. Like move like that. At least in my opinion. It's like I just like cover ground and tell him into elk. Like first and foremost, if you're not in elk, you're not going to kill one.

And if you can't, if you can't hear him, you should be able to see him.

Yeah.

If you can't see him or hear him, then we should just hunt different elk. Yes, exactly.

Yeah. I get. There was a time where Karen and I, we both shot our bulls again. Right. Corns on opening day. But anyway, so we're tight out and like it would. It was one of the most amazing days of elk hunting ever experienced. Like, and we did see some bigger bulls but they were like they weren't with the herds yet. And then the five points and ranghorns.

Were like, we should back up and tell the whole story.

Okay, the whole story. But anyway, so opening day, classic. We're, you know, without. We'd found elk, we'd go in, and there's. There's small bulls with the herds of the cows and stuff. And we saw one big bull. We tried to cut them off, Spooking, probably the herd bowl for these. Like, you know, there's about a hundred cows around, but then there's a bunch of small bulls there. And so we just, like, had a heyday calling elk, and it was just like, they were bugling and going nuts all day long. It's awesome. And so we called Lynn, Cara killed it, and we were cutting it up, and they're still just, like, bugling like crazy. And we're almost done, like, cutting up her ball, and she's like, you got just, like, go over there. Just like, go over and try calling in. And so, like, she finishes cutting up her elk, and I arrow one right at last light, two bulls down. And so it was super fun, like, small.

Did you calculate?

Yeah, we calculated both of those ones.

Nice.

And so anyway, most amazing day of elk hunting I probably had up to that point. And again, like, not big bulls, but just a lot.

Oh, yeah.

And we were in the middle of this shuttle and meet the next day. Pat can elk out. And, like, they're still up bugling, like, in the morning when we went in, and we run into this guy in the trail, and he's just like, man, like, guys having any luck? Like, yeah, yeah, we, you know, killed, so it's hard to lie about that one. And, like, a bunch of bloody packs, like, walking in it with no bow. And. Yeah. So we're like, yeah, yeah, it's been pretty good. And he's like, man, I haven't. I haven't seen a single elk, like, this whole, like, the whole first two days. And I'm like, what this? Like, this was, like, the biggest rough fest I've ever been a part of. Like, and he's in the same basin and just, like, had experience nothing. And, like, he would, like, hunt the bot. And he. It was like, in the very bottom basin. He's like, there's elk dying everywhere. I can smell them. I know they're here, but it's like, dude, they're like, in the bottoms at night, and then they're just working up the ridges. Like, start at first light, and they're just going up feed. And there's a bunch of different timber pockets that they're going into. And, like, he just, like, couldn't get past. Like, there's somewhere in the. Like, I. I can smell them. They're somewhere in this, like. And he's just walking in the circles in this basin. And, like, yeah, they were in there in the middle of the night getting water, but they're not there anymore. And so it's just like, if you're not even. Like, he's in the right basin, but he's just, like, hunting where the elk are not.

Yes.

And it was just like, it blew my mind that, like, we could have those same two experiences on the same day.

Yeah, I had. I've had a few of those where staff blew up fester. I'm on a bull, and, like, you run into someone, and I go, we haven't seen anything in eight days. Like, there's one time I was talking to these two kids, and I could literally hear the bull bugling. And I knew he was there and walked back to get what? I'd been watching him walk back to my truck, I think, to get food. And I can still, like, in the wind, could hear him bugling. And so, like, every time these. He's like, man, we haven't seen or heard anything. And, like, I just start talking if I could hear him bugling.

So I'm like, dog, if you're listening.

I'm like, you can't hear that for.

All those bugling right behind me.

Like, Vader's like, yeah, we've been here eight days, haven't seen or heard a single thing. I'm like, weird. This is weird.

Like, do you work around loud equipment? Like, do you not hear very well? But, yeah, no, I think that's a lot of people. Problem is hunting where the elk aren't and whether it's the same basin or the wrong part of the mountain range or whatever, it's just like, get so laser focused into one spot, and it's like, they were here, they're gonna be here again. Like, well, you pressured them out. Somebody pressured them out. They're not here. They're in the next drainage. Or.

I think people don't think big enough. Yeah, but it's like, I. I got this because I. I did ask a question last year, and I was just about e. Scouting, and so many people sent me their e. Scouting plans, and, you know, look at them, and it'd be like, we're gonna hunt, like, right here. And it'd be like, you know, back when grandpa had his camp, like, we're gonna buy in this camp, I was like, dude, you got. I could hunt that in an afternoon. Like, you need a lot more terrain.

Think bigger, for sure.

Thinking. Yeah, thinking bigger and just, you know, understanding that was the one thing I learned about hunting out east was, you know, I started seeing collar data and, like, these elk are going 5 to 10 mile during night and day.

So nomadic, like. Yeah. They move a lot and a long ways. And there's exceptions to the rule. There's some that, like, maybe they'll only go like a half mile or whatever. But why do you joke?

As someone who grew up hunting Roosevelt? So you're like, oh, the elk go from here to there, like, you know, a couple hundred yards. And like, you come to Montana, and I feel like even western Montana, you know, those all go much farther than people think. And so it's like, there's elk sign. Sure. It could be five miles away.

Yeah.

And it could be back to the elk sign tonight.

Yeah.

That's a wild statement. When you, like, really wrap your head around, like, that's how far I'll go. You're like, oh, like, it's not like they just came to this field and went up right to bed.

Yeah. Yeah. The Roosevelt example, or like someone maybe from the Midwest is, you know, whitetail be bedding and feeding. Like, they're thinking in like, 20 acre, 20 acre plot. And it's just like, oh, no, I'll blow through that. Yeah, like a minute.

Yeah, that's true. Maybe that's where it comes from is like, if you hunt, you know, same 25 acres, and you're like, oh, like deer. The deer are bedding here and they're feeding here. It's like, yeah, just blow that up by like, 10,000. Because some of these elk are going up very ways.

Yeah.

And if you have to search, like, I'm literally even in Idaho. I mean, there's multiple times. You're like, okay, I'm search this canyon, and I'm gonna search this canyon. And then like, yeah, they're not there. Maybe they're around this side over there. It's like they're there somewhere.

Yeah. And I like discovering ground both in a vehicle and then also on foot. And it's like thinking strategically of like, okay, what ridge? Can I just walk a long ways? Where can I, like, hear off both sides of a ridge somewhere?

Yep.

And just like, walk that until I hear them or see him or whatever. And it's just like, cover ground until you find a spot.

Cover ground cover.

But that's. That's like again, like to me that's like the easiest part of the puzzle in September. Like they're making dinosaur noises. Like they're, they're bugling out there like crazy like this. You're not finding them. Do something different.

Yeah.

Like now.

Yeah, yeah. Go until you find dinosaur noises and then. Yeah, let's cover ground. It boils down to.

Sure.

Yeah. Gonna kill one this year. Big bowl.

A bowl, hopefully. No, it'll be fun. I'm excited to chase him around in the breaks and just like on some new stuff. Yeah, just on new ground like because when we finally burnt our points, we can kind of like jump around to some of these districts that are easy to draw archery or you know, hard to get with a rifle tape. But it's like. Yeah, just trying to hunt some new areas. It's pretty fun. Hunt a new area last year had a blast. And yeah, doing the same thing this year. So heck yeah, should be a good time. And then awesome. Lucky that if I don't kill one in archery using a rifle. So.

That's true. That's true. You had a busy fall. I'm sure. Falling right around.

Yeah, it'll be good. Randy's got like Nevada archery meal deer tag early and then he should be drawing Wyoming deer. And I think he has Wyoming elk too. So it's like, it'll be a busy. Yeah. And I'll split filming with Jay, our other camera guy. So we'll kind of split back and forth between filming Randy.

But then you guys going to Alaska?

We're gonna go to Alaska. We're gonna sink a black tailed deer.

Oh, nice. When are you going?

We're going like middle of August.

Okay.

Yeah. So I'm excited for that. Try to hunt the alpine. Yeah, we'll see. I got a knee injury that I'm still figuring out so I think I'll be able to get the alpine. Yeah, we'll hunt it one way or the other, but. And then my buddy who also messed up his knee, so that's coming with me. So we'll adventure one or the other.

You'll hobble. You both hobble to the top.

Yeah. And so yeah, no, we got a lot of hunts so I, I'm excited about my breaks stuff but realistically it's probably going to be like a five day stint that I get to go do it and yeah, that's.

It's always tough hunting those open country when you don't have much time. It's tough hunting any elk when you don't have time. Like you need days.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you hunting a permanent archery or in the general units?

I got a permit this year. Not a hard to get one. It's kind of in a place I've hunted before, so it'll be good. I'm taking a friend this year, so we'll see. And then I have Wyoming too, and I. Yeah, I have a pile of hunts.

Nice.

I. Yeah, I don't have a ton of time in September. I might be defaulting to the rifle or the muzzleloader. I'm kind of excited that if I don't shoot one, I'm gonna try the muzzle loader.

Oh, yeah. Do you have a muzzle loader?

Yeah. Yeah.

I've never even like that dove into muzzleloading at all, so it's like, eventually I'm gonna have to do it. I like, keep. I need to buy one just to, like, be ready for it.

Well, we used to back in Oregon, we used to hunt white. This white late whitetail hunt. It was a December hunt and like, I had a cabin there, so we always, like, we'd all go and. Yeah. I love the term the hope pole because, like, you hope it goes off, you hope you hit something, you hope it goes down.

Seriously?

Yeah. Depends on the hope pole. Uh, so, yeah, I. I have fair amount of experience with it and I've like. I really want to kill both my muzzleloader, the Hawkins. Like, I think it'd be super cool. So I'm. I would love to shoot a big hole in September, but if I don't, I think I'm just gonna, like, hold out till muzzle over season.

Yeah. Didn't you kill a bull with like, a Sharps?

I feel like I did, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It was 2017. I killed one of my Sharps too. That was like a. Right. A regular rifle tag in Morgan.

Sweet. That's cool. I'd like to do that if I ever draw a bison tag. Definitely killing it with my grandpa's Sharps. Yeah.

Oh, you're. You have 1pm that would be for sure. It needs to happen. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I got. Yeah. And I have Wyoming tag this year, so. Pretty stoked about that. Jaden and I are gonna.

I don't know.

We have grandiose plans. We'll see how they. We gotta do some scouting, but, like.

Involve going deep, like taking stock or Is he gonna be on foot?

It's still up in the air.

Okay.

Where I want to go, I don't think you can get stuck to. So, like, best case scenario, I think it's Like a stock extract, you know, that would be like. My dream scenario is to not take stock.

Have somebody on call.

Yeah. Have someone on call. Like, that's like the ideal scenario.

Yeah, that would be nice.

But we'll see. We're still. It's still up in the air. So we've been. I want to. East. We're going to scout. We've escouted. I think Jaden's actually been there. So it's like, all right. Grandiose plans.

Nice. There's so many places in Wyoming that are like, yeah, that's badass. But a lot of them involve like, I'm gonna want some horses or llamas or whatever. Go. Something to pack that thing out.

Yeah.

It's like you just.

And you start laying in there. You start laying tracks. And like the other day I laid a track, and it wasn't like the actual track we're gonna do, but I was just trying to get a perspective. And it was like 9,000 vert. And I was like. Because it was like. I was like, oh, yeah, we're not going that way. It's in vert.

Yeah.

So it just gives you context. Big mountains.

Thinking of that with an elk quarter on your back.

Oh, yeah.

No, I'm good.

Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. It should be a good year.

Yeah.

Good luck, man.

Thank you.

Keep in touch. Thanks for coming on.

For sure. Appreciate it.

Yeah, Big one.

I'll try. I'm going to hold out. I'll shoot. I'm. I'm going to shoot.

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