Open Country Bulls with Lucas Zemlicka

Foreign. This is the Elk hunt podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode is brought to you by the good folks over at Onx Hunt. And today I want to tell you kind of a feature slash, just pro move on how to use your Onx to find units. Now, if you didn't know Onx Elite, you get Onyx hrt, which is their hunt research tool. You get to draw odds all of the things that you used to get with top rut, Right. If you want to know what you can get or how to get tags, that's a great resource. But there's another level to this. If you're an Onyx Elite member, you also get Hunt and Fool. You get access to Hunt and Fool's E magazine, which game changer. If you have never used that, this, this is kind of the next level of getting tags. So if you're an Onyx Elite member, head over to Huntinfool.com you can use your Onx login to log right in. You get free access, you get their E magazine. Once you get the E magazine, you can go through and Huntful does a great job of breaking down units and, and kind of discussing what units quality are, ups, downs, all of those things. And it's something I use religiously, something I look at every single year and I'm trying to just get a feel for different units.

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All right. What are we going to talk about, Lucas?

I don't know. You don't know elk hunting?

I'm going to have to pry it out of you.

Yeah, I'm not good at this stuff, you know that.

Good at elk hunting, whatever.

I'm not good at that.

But talking about it.

Yeah, talking about it.

Well, we could.

I don't know.

When's the last time you were on?

It's been a couple years. Oh boy. Yeah, it's been a couple years, I think. Yeah. I don't even know. Couple years.

Come on, you gotta have some good Stories since then. Last three bulls. Have you killed bulls every year since you've been on?

I moved here in 01. I killed the bow in 02. I missed. I didn't get one in 03, but I've killed one in ever since.

You killed Bull every year since 03?

Yeah.

With archery?

Yeah.

That's impressive.

Yeah. I don't know what that is. 21 or two in a row?

22 in a row, Something like that.

Yeah.

Dang, that's impressive. How many bulls over 350?

I don't even know. 6, 7, 8. So somewhere in there it's not a.

Pile, but like a solid amount.

Yeah, I'd have to look. I'm probably close to eight, I suppose now.

All open country?

Yeah. All east of Bozeman?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And it's been all over kind of, but yeah, east of Bozeman.

Yeah.

I don't. Yeah, I shot a bull in 01 right outside of town here in the Bridgers actually. And you know, mountain bull, I think.

He told that story.

I.

This is probably years ago. I remember hearing that story though, and I'm pretty sure you had told that.

Yeah.

Did you call it in or something? Yeah, it was like the only bull you've ever called in.

No, that's not true. No, I called in on the bull. Okay, you get it.

Okay, let's tell the story of the one horn bull. It's not really a one horn bowl.

Oh, that was.

That's a cool.

Yeah, that's a cool bull. Kind of a cool story too. Yeah, that bull, man, we saw him say the first year that we saw him we were hunting edge of the Private, you know, playing that game and been hunting this herd. Well, been hunting about three different herds and been on this herd off and on. And it's one of those herds where they spend most their time on private.

Right.

But they leave, they get rutting. They'll. They'll leave from time to time on accident. Yeah. You know, they get to rutting and they get. And there's kind of this hill where you can look down on this Private and. And look at a majority of the elk in the mornings and evenings. And then they go out in the timber, you know, to bed during the day and you can't see them because all I'm private, you know, but you can get up on this BLM hill and look down on there. So we have a pretty good idea what elk are in that herd. And there wasn't. There was one shooter in there. Not a giant, but a Shooter. And we were checking off and on, you know, to see if. If they, you know, ever strayed onto the BLM or something. And. And I was actually hunting somewhere else and my wife was sitting there and she took a video of this bull, big six on one side and just a real weird, heavy, you know, obviously some sort of injury on the other side. He had a really bad limp on his hind leg.

It's like a club or something.

It wasn't even really a club. It's just super heavy, but stunted, short, but lots of mass. And the other side was just a big six. And she took a video of it and she showed me. She's like, hey, look at this bull that came through. Like, holy cow. Like, I'd shoot that thing in a heartbeat.

Oh, really?

It's a good bull. You know, at that time, he was probably. His big side was maybe, I don't know, 360, 370 type on the big side. And then his, you know, his messed up side, opposite of his leg injury side wasn't all that big, but it was kind of cool looking. And he came through. She videoed it. We went there, hunted the next day. I think we saw it that next day, and then gone. You know, never saw him the rest of the season. And we'd been hunting there weeks before. So he only showed up for two, three days.

Yeah. Just showed up and gone.

Yeah. Yeah. And. But the next year, the next year, same thing. He shows up again. We'd been hunting there a couple weeks, just checking on this herd, you know, seeing what bulls are in there. He shows up and I was going to be super patient, or we were, you know, either one of us are going to kill him. And we were super patient, you know, didn't want to bump him. He. He obviously was a big, mature bull, but he never had cows. The other bulls ran him off. He had a really bad limp on his hind leg. And after I ended up shooting him like his knee was, you know, as big, around as twice as big as I should have been and solid.

Like it was like just mass, just.

Dense and heavy and he couldn't bend it. I don't know what happened, but. But other bulls ran him off all the time. You know, he was obviously a big old bull, but he just couldn't defend himself, I guess.

Yeah.

So he never had cows, you know, or anything. But the second year that we saw him, I was gonna play it super safe, you know, not bump him. Same thing though. He showed up, he was there for two days and gone again.

Oh, really?

It was right in the middle of rut. Like he wasn't there early season and he wasn't there late season.

He had no idea where he lives. Just like. Like he just randomly shows up.

Yeah. Didn't know where he lives. Yeah. Could never saw him anywhere else. Never got him on trail camera anywhere else. Running tons of cameras, Cameras everywhere. Never got him on camera. So I don't know how far he was coming from or what. So then that the next year, Alicia was gone in Alaska hunting moose, and I was out elk hunting. And I was like, I'll go check on this herd. There hadn't. There wasn't a shooter in that herd at that time. And I was just dropping in every now and then and glass them from the. From up high on the hill and. And I was. I was walking in, gonna go in at, you know, 2:00 in the afternoon, kind of get set up on this ridge and see what comes out in the evening. And I see him already out all by himself, just coming across a wide open field. So I was like, got the spotting scope on. I could tell by the binos, the way he was walking, that it was him, you know. Really? Yeah. He was like, oh, I could tell by the walk, you know, it's like, shit, he's back. I wonder how big he is. Threw up the spotting scope on him. I was like, oh, yeah, he's as big as he had been yet, you know. And I've watched him, and he ended up going in the. In the private. Couldn't find him. So the next morning I went there. Sure enough, he was out there with the herd, and I dogged him. And he. He was coming across a private and he got to. And I would start a cow calling to him, which I don't do very often. But I knew he was susceptible to cows because he couldn't fight, you know, he couldn't defend us. So I knew he was just kind of looking for cows that didn't have any bull. So I was just cow calling and he was coming, coming. I was set up, you know, not too far out into the BLM. And he came. He got to like 300 yards from crossing the fence, maybe 200. And he just bugled back. And he must have bugled at me 50 times. Would not come any closer across. See, he walks over and he just beds down right where I can see him. Like on the private. Like on the private, you know, a couple hundred yards or three hundred yards lays down there. I cow called cow every Time I cow called, he would bugle back at me, but he would not come over there. And I wasn't like in the open. I was in a fair bit of timber, you know, it's not like I was in the open. And he couldn't. He could see there was no cows or something. So, okay, it gets to be late and it gets like noon or whatever. I just back out of there and I come back early in the afternoon, maybe like three or four o'. Clock. I come back, I can't see him anymore, you know, and I just let out a little cow call. He bugles right back at me. He had only moved about 100 yards and I moved and then I could see him once I moved a little bit. And it was funny. We I cal he'd bugle. He. I hate bugle. But he would not come over there. And eventually like, he just like parallels this kind of private land fence on. He was on one side and I was on the other side. I wasn't super close because, you know, I didn't want to shoot him. And he's going to jump the fence, go right back over there, you know. So I was off the fence, but by at least a couple hundred yards, maybe three hundred yards. And at one point it got towards evening, you know, and he got up and he was parallel on the fence line. I. I moved close to the fence line thinking, well, if I get a lot closer and cow call, you know, maybe he'll start coming. That didn't really help either. So I kind of backed off, kept doing it. And we did this for like an hour. Just he like paralleled this fence line and it starts to get real close to dark. And I was like, you know what? I have a cow decoy in my pack. You know, one of those.

Collapsible ones.

Yeah. So I. I go, I get out ahead of him and I kind of find this clearing in the timber and I set that thing up and I go back and I call and he bugles at me and he comes around. And then I could tell when he sees this thing, you know, because he turns, he looks right at it and he just bugles right at this deep decoy. I was like, man, he didn't come hard, but he just started coming then, like he'd take four or five steps. Bugle, you know, come another 10 yards. Bugle. I'm like, he's gonna come. I just gotta get him over here before dark because it was getting real dark. And that's exactly what he did. He just slowly Made his way. And I was set up. You know, I set the decoy up maybe 300 yards from the fence line. And I was between. Between the decoy and him. He jumped the fence on the. Onto the good guy side of the fence. Yeah, onto the blm. And he's walking, just headed to this decoy. You know, it's getting real dark. And I just waited till he got as far away as he could get. He was actually quartered away from me. It kind of went past me and was quartering away and I shot him. It wasn't super far, 45 yards or something. Something quartering away and smoked him like perfect. And he didn't even know what happened, you know, and he knew which way it came from, so he kind of ran the other way.

Which is good for you.

Yeah, which was super good for me. But the funny thing was I knew once he got past me, if he turned, like I was just going to sprint down.

Like you're chasing horses, pushing away, you know.

But I let him go past me just for that reason, you know. And yeah, I made a. I made a good shot. He tipped over there. And yeah, the funny thing about that was I. I was all by myself and I skin and quartered him, packed him out. It was like 3 o' clock in the morning when I got all done, and I was actually closer to where my camp was than where my vehicle was. So I ended up walking all the way to camp. At 3 o' clock in the morning. I get there and the next morning I get up and I still had some quarters. I had packed two quarters on the way out to the road, but I had. And the head? No, I took all the quarters except I took three quarters. But I had to come back for one quarter in the head in the morning. So the next morning I go back in there and I remember like going in there kind of quiet. I didn't want to spook the herd, you know, because I knew Alicia was coming back from Alaska and I didn't want to bump him. And I go walking like, holy cow, there's a cow. I left my decoy up from the night before. It was still set up because it was dark, you know, when I shot him and I'd do and everything in the dark. And I left that thing sit all night. I walked right up on the thing. But yeah, yeah, cool bull.

Super cool bull. What is he like? I mean, if he would have matched that, the big side, he was like 390 was.

Yeah, the big side's like 390 D. Yeah, it's cool. Bowl like. Same thing, though. Three years in a row, just shows up for a couple days. I knew. I knew this was my only chance to kill him because two years prior, he had only been there like two days.

That's crazy.

I couldn't figure out. I still don't know. I have a rough idea, maybe just from talking to some other locals in the area. I think I know where he winners, but I don't know where he was rutting the rest of the season.

Isn't it crazy when those bulls just absolutely disappear?

Crazy. I don't know if Alicia told you about the one that she missed this year on opening day. That's what he's been doing the last two years on us.

Just disappears.

Yeah, the first year, we kind of put some pressure on him. The first year, Alicia missed him and I missed him, and I bumped him one other time, and then he left like he was there all summer. We watched him the first two weeks of season. He was there and then he left. But I thought we had just put too much pressure on him. And then last fall, same thing. He's there all summer. Scouted him, and Alicia missed him opening day this year, but he still hung around. I hunted him for a couple days. Well, we both did, but I got on him a couple times. No, never put much pressure on him. Just trying to leave him alone because I wanted him to stay there because it's full of private all around there. And I knew if I bumped him, he's gonna go on the private gone. And he just left. He left about two weeks into the season with virtually no pressure from us. And there was no one else in there hunting that I ever saw. So I don't know where he's rutting. Really.

That's wild. So you find a big bull. I mean, you got a lot of experience with this, like finding summer bulls, whatever. How do you know if that bull's gonna stick around or not?

Do you just.

And then how do you. Do you slow play or do you be aggressive?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Every bull's different. You know, some of those elk I can find in the summer, they don't go anywhere. They're there all summer, they're there all fall, you know, or at least within a mile or two. You know, they just make their loops and then some. There was this other bull, very distinct bowl, had a lot of points. I forget now if he was 8 by 9 or 8 by 8. Not. Not a giant. Giant bull. But Just had a lot of points. Very unique bull. Saw him in August. Saw him in August in velvet. Right before he shed his velvet and couldn't pick him up again the rest of scouting couldn't pick him up all of September. And then I was haunting a place as the crow flies. It was like 22 or 23 miles away. There he was. Showed up. Yeah, 20 some miles away at about 30 days difference from when I saw him before till now.

That is wild.

Crazy, huh?

Yeah. Like, so how do you like, what's your philosophy around that? It's like, do you just, I mean as far as like summer scouting. Sometimes summer scouting feels worthless cuz you're like, oh, they're not going to be there anyway.

Yeah, some of them are.

So like, how do you think of about it?

I look at it as summer scouting. If you can find them in the summer, they're still there the first week or two of season. They haven't really got into their rutting patterns or anything, you know, or go to their rutting areas. So you have a week, maybe two weeks to try to kill them if you can find them in the summer. That's how I like, I've yet to really kill a bull super early, even.

Though never capitalize on it, but.

Right, but that's always, you know, in the back of your mind like, oh, if I could find one. Although, I mean that should have worked this year. Alicia missed that bull. You know, he was like 380 type bull. She missed him opening day. And that's because we knew where he was at. We'd seen him in the summer and we knew he was there, but we should have killed him opening day. You know, she just got excited.

Yeah, I had that bull that was upper360, probably low370s and you know, found him in the summer and he was there first week. Should have had him like day three of season a couple years ago. And then, yeah, once he disappears, it's like, who knows? Yeah, so hard.

Yeah, so hard.

But then like you, you have certain bulls like just show up second, third week of season and pretty consistently and you're like, okay, he's gonna be there. And it's tough because like with those big bulls you kind of get in this mindset of like, let's slow play it, but. And then you get screwed by the, like they just disappear one night and you're like, where did he go?

Right.

So like how, how you get past the first two weeks? How do you think about aggressive versus patience when it comes to big Walls.

You know, that's just so dependent on so many different variables. I guess I don't really bank on elk moving or leaving unless it's something I have a history with, and I know they're going to, but.

So you assume they're going to stay there?

I assume they're just going to stay.

And I feel like I'm getting into this phase where it's like, I feel like everything's about to leave, and it changes the pressure. It's like I need to get it done because, like, you don't want to slow play it too much. I feel like they're gonna leave.

Yeah. I don't know. I think every scenario is different. It's hard to just say, oh, this is how you do it, or this is how I do it. It's so dependent on hunting. Pressure is another big one. You know, if I think I have a spot where, you know, nobody's going in there, very few. I'm a lot more likely to slow play it than, you know, if there's a lot of pressure in there. Like, I think of this one spot that I hunt, it has a lot of pressure because there's a private rancher that holds a lot of elk, and people kind of hunt the borders of it pretty hard. It's not that hard to access, but those elk do leave, and they do come onto that public, so, like, there's potential there to kill them. And I've killed elk there before, but that one, it's like, if they leave that private and they come on that public land around it, it's kind of like now or never. I don't really slow play it if there's a bull I want to kill, you know, it's like, I mean, unless the odds are so low, I don't want to bump them. I don't have to, but it's pretty aggressive at that point because, for one, they're going to go back on the private, or two, someone's gonna bump them.

You know, a lot of times in that scenario, even if you bump them, they go right back to the old rhythm. You know, it's like you're catching them on a kind of an offer.

Yeah.

And so it's like they finally bet it on public, like, make it happen. And if we're like, they just know they can go right back to private anyway.

Yeah, for sure.

When you think about, like, does it change with the bowl size or anything? Do you think that big bulls do anything different, or is it like, I treat every bull the same.

Again?

It's so dependent. I mean, it's no. No brainer that the big bulls are definitely smarter, you know, like, those buggers, they're so hard to kill. Yeah. Like, they just have a whole nother sense to them, you know, like, you can call in rag horns all day and sneak up on them even, you know, they're just not as attentive and not as alert. So I do think the older, bigger.

Bulls, you know, do you think there's any difference, though, between, like, let's say a 380 ball and a 340 bull? Let's say they're the same age.

No. I mean, I. No. Right. I treat it all the same.

I try to. Like, that's the thing is, like, one thing I've learned is, like, just treat it like at the end of the day, you gotta walk up to him, put a sharp stick in it. Like, that's all you gotta do. Because I think if you go. I think I at least overthink it sometimes and be like, I should wait or, like, you know, be cautious or whatever. Sometimes it's just like, I feel like if that was a 330 bull, I just walk up and.

Yeah. You know, that's the only thing. Yeah. I try to keep it simple. Right. It's so easy to overthink it, except for, like, the execution, like the stock or something like that. I'm like, I don't. I don't. If I gotta walk an extra mile to get the wind a little better, like, I do it every time I try to shortcut, you know, that bites me in the ass.

Yeah.

It's like, I knew I should have went the extra mile, circled around.

Yeah.

You know, so when it comes to that. Yeah. I don't cut any corners when it comes to, like, how am I gonna get in and kill this thing, you know? But when it comes to. It's like, okay, how do you do it? Like, it's pretty basic. I just got to get within bow range and shoot it. Yeah. You know, sometimes people tend to overthink it, you know? Ah, the wind. And it's. I mean, obviously the wind. But I mean, like, oh, the wind's gonna maybe gonna swirl. Look at this ridge that's coming over that. I'm like, I don't know.

Like, I know what's gonna find out.

Yeah. It's like, let's start heading that way. If the wind shifts or moves, like, obviously, we're gonna back out, go somewhere else. But you can only plan so much, you know? Like, I don't know. This looks like the best terrain to get in there with the best wind. Let's start there. If it doesn't work out, I'm going to back out, come try a different angle. But, yeah, I don't really overthink it too much until, you know, like, it's crunch time and I want to, like, shoot something.

It's like, all right, how many of your bulls are like, stock in the bed, mule deer style, verse ambush? Like, you're going to wait for them to come to you.

So I always like them to come to me. Like, that's the easiest and best. Right. Like, if you can be relatively.

I think Alicia was on, and she was talking about, like, how, like, you guys are very big on. Like, let's just wait till they're coming out. Yeah, like, wait till they're coming out. They'll come to you. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. I said, would you. I guess the standard open country. There's no standard, but the more common open country playbook is like, get in a bed, put a stock in, get close. Ideally, they're rotten pretty hard. Get within 60 yards of a cow and wait. Play your game. Would you rather they were on their feet or like, you know, what's your standard playbook?

You know, every scenario is different, but, like, if I could pick, I would watch it bed down, you know, figure out where the cows are bedded, where he's bedded, and slip in and kill them. But most of the time, it's like they go into this timber or somewhere, you can't see them. Or you can maybe see him, but you're like, I don't know where all the cows are at. And as soon as you start going into a situation like that where you don't know where all the animals are, something picks you out that you didn't know was there. Yeah. Ideally, if they're in, like, thicker cover timber and things like that where I can't see them all, I just wait for them to come out. Like, I don't want to go in. Every time I go in the timber after them, you just get busted. You know, if it's more open country where I can see majority of them see him. And I like that scenario because especially in the morning, they go bed down. It's like, I got all day to do this. I can be super patient. You know, I could inch by inch on my knees, you know, my forearms and just pull myself in, take all day. I don't care, you know, if I can see Them, But I can't do that if I can't see them. I don't have the patience, you know, if I don't have eyes on them, you know, you don't know exactly where they're at. It's really hard to go slow. Slow enough to not get caught, you know, but when they're in the timber and they're feeding, coming out in the open to feed. Yeah, I like to just intercept them, you know, wait for them to come out and get in a spot where they're coming through a draw or coming through a saddle or somewhere where you kind of pinch them.

Pinch you trying to just get in front of them or just cut them off?

Yeah. I mean, ideally, if you can get in front of them, you know, in a draw and just cut them off and wait for them to walk by you. Yeah.

So last. Last 10 bulls you've killed, maybe we just do five. It'd be easier to remember how many were AM, how many were midday, and how. How many were PM.

Yeah, I kind of know. I don't know the stats exactly, but I know basically how that works. So I always like to hunt them in the morning because then I got all day to figure it out. You know, it's like they bed down somewhere. I got all day to make a game plan, slip in there. Whereas in the evening, it seems like they come out right before dark, and it's fast and it's furious. You gotta run, you gotta make a move now and cut them off. But that's usually when I kill most of them is in the evening, Even though I hate that, because things. It's always chaotic because you're fighting daylight, it's getting dark. They don't move until right before dark. But that's when I've killed the majority of them is in the evening, usually.

Have you found that bull that morning, or is it like multiple days?

What?

How many. Do you usually find it that day or is like, do most of the bulls you kill, you have multiple days with.

Oh, again, that varies. Yeah. You know, those elk. It's amazing how those elk move, you know, it's like, I've been watching this herd off and on all season. There hasn't been a shooter bull in there. Then you go in there one night, it's like, oh, where the heck did this thing come from? It's like, oh, it's time to kill him, you know, Like, I don't know how long he's gonna be here. He might. And then the next time, you know, the same herd Bull is there all season long. You know, I don't. I don't understand it, you know, why some of Those bulls travel 20 miles, you know, in the middle of the rut. You know, why do they do that? They. They're walking past elk, they're walking through elk, you know, just to go somewhere else, but they absolutely do it. Like, we all know people that have seen the same thing.

Yeah.

Like, it's not just me. Like, they truly do that. And it's. It's. Every elk is different, too. Some of those move 20 miles in the next one. Like I said, you can find them in July, and they're still there in November.

Yeah.

You know, that's crazy. When you, like, so yours, I would say system. Maybe your system is like, you're gonna have. I mean, how many cow groups, how many herds you like to look at? I mean, like, ideally, if I can just keep tabs on five or six different herds, bounce between them, check for shooters. Like, okay, is there a shooter in this herd yet? You know, and that's kind of become my, like, system, I guess. Like, how is yours different?

Yeah, I mean, so again, it just depends on where I'm hunting, You know, where I kind of hunt now, I'm hunting in areas where there's not high elk densities. You know, there's not a lot of elk there. And I do that because there's not a lot of hunting pressure there. You know, a lot of people don't know there's elk there.

Lots of elk egos.

Lots of people. Yeah, lots of elk equals lots of people. That's so true. So where I hunt, there's not a lot of elk density. So, yeah, I float between. It's at least a half a dozen different herds of elk that I know, kind of like where they are, you know? And, I mean, if people haven't hunted eastern Montana, I might drive 100 miles, right. You know, between, you know, might be, you know, I'll hunt this morning, and I'll hunt this elk herd. And it's like, okay, there's nothing big in there, or there's no elk in there, or there's nothing I want to shoot that evening. I might be 50 miles away, you know, looking at another herd where I know they kind of hang out, you know, and you know that it's huge country. It's not like I'm hunting, you know, six, seven, eight herds, you know, within five square miles.

Can you find her? So a lot of times I've found. And you're a better open country hunter than I am by far. But, like, I found that if I find a herd, let's say it's a 320 bull, and it's like, there's a lot of chaos going on. It's always like a smaller bull. I don't want to call a 320 bull small, but it's like, it feels like, man, it just seems like chaos. But when I find the big bulls, it's not. Usually, if a big bull's in the herd, it's not chaos. Yeah, you know, I don't know. Do you. Is there any correlation? Like, and if you see, like, if you see a 320 bull going crazy, do you stick around because you're like, oh, there's some hot cows coming in heat, like, there's got to be a bigger bowl? That used to be my philosophy. And I don't know if that's true or not.

I mean, we're talking, like, generally here. Yeah, I mean, broad. Yeah, this is a pretty, you know, big brushstroke here. But as a general rule, I agree with what you're saying. If there's lots of cows and it's total chaos, usually the biggest bulls aren't there. I think they round up a few cows and they're somewhere else. They peel off, they have their five, six. You rarely, at least where I'm at, do I see the herd bull have 20, 30 cows. Because there are some herds that have 20, 30 where I'm at, but almost never.

Have you ever keep track of the cow numbers? Do you watch her and be like, oh, there's, there's five less?

Oh, no.

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No, I wonder if I should start.

Doing that because, like, I. I can think of a bull I missed and it was the exact same scenario I'm talking about.

I heard.

I had checked on, I don't know, a dozen times throughout the year, and one day there's a seven by seven in there, but he's pretty small. He's like 310. So myself, he's very aggressive. Satellites are very aggressive. And it was like the only reason I dogged that herd that day was because, like the last day I'm leaving, I'm dogging that herd and all of a sudden, like I was glassing and just happened to catch two cows over here. And there was like a 360 bull with those two. And I was like, oh, interesting. Like complete chaos, right? Like the average 300 bulls are going bananas. I don't. Never heard him bugle, never heard him peep out of him. He was just kind of off on his own with two cows and I call that classic or whatever. But, you know, and then I think of a couple scenarios where it's like, man, really big herds, 30, 40, and like, you got that 320 bull that's just very vocal and like, he's just all over the place and it's like, man, I should start looking around, like to see if anything is outside.

I think that's a great strategy, right?

Like, it's like all the attention's here.

And I, yeah, I, I agree. I don't think as a general rule, those big bulls or those older bulls, like, all that chaos and, you know, all the bulls chasing other bulls and. But the opposite of that, though, this year at one of the best days I've ever, ever had elk hunting and there was a big bull in that group. Like, I went and checked this herd. A little story time, super cool story, but they want to check this herd and they weren't there. Like, they'd been here for weeks and weeks, you know, and they weren't there. Because I'm up on this big bluff looking. I'm looking two miles away, you know, but they weren't there. I'm like, what's super odd? And I hear like a faint bugle off in the distance. I'm like, they all way over there. But as a. You know, it took me four miles to walk around to get. Well, I could drive a good chunk of that, but it's like four miles. I make this big loop park. Go walking out into this BLM piece, and it's like they're bugling in there. Well, as soon as I parked the pickup, I heard them buling. I was like. And it's like chaos. It's like bulls bugling everywhere. And the wind wasn't perfect, so I kind of made a loop. And I start coming in at the wind square in my face, just picking a bugle because there was a lot of timber in this spot. And it's like, we're just walking there. It's like chaos. Bulls be number. I just picked a bugle and I get up there. I'm like, oh, there's a bull. Not. Not what I want to shoot, but that's fine. There's like four other bulls. Bungalow. So I leave and I go up this other way, which there's a lot of elk. So I'm going super slow, and I see him through the timber. I'm like, still not a big bull. And anyway, I checked out three or four different bulls. Just chaos and nothing I wanted to shoot. And I was like, okay, there must not be a big bull in this. In this group, you know? And I was kind of backing out, but I was gonna. It was still chaos. Was like noon. But I was like, I don't want to leave all of this, you know, like this insane rut fest. You know, things are crazy. And I just like, oh, I'm just gonna back out and go to the edges. I can listen to the bugles. I know where the four bulls that are bugling are at. So I'm like, if I hear any other bugles, I know it's gonna be a different bull, you know? And I hear another bugle, like, behind me where I came in. The wind was wrong, so I kind of gotta make a loop. And I go over there, big seven by seven. He had bugled that one bugle. And that's the only reason I knew he was there. And these other bugle, these other bulls had bugled 200 times that morning. You know, just chaos. And he bugled that one time, and I found some cows and slipped around and I found him. I was gonna shoot him. You know, he's his big bull, 370 type bull. And man, I. Long story short, I almost killed him right there. But I didn't. And he ended up going on some private. Just chasing cows. And stuff. But he bugled the one time. That's it. And it was chaos all around him. Well, chaos, you know, 200 yards away. Just chaos and insane rut fest like nothing I had ever seen before.

And he never said a word.

No, he didn't say it, Pete. When I saw him, he bugled. I made a little loop around like 200 yards, found him and he was feeding. He had, he had six, eight cows with him. He's just feeding and yeah, he could have cared less what those other elk were doing over there.

Dude, funny story. So I probably sent you pictures of this bull, but there's a good bowl. I heard it was a day, it was a rainy day. And area I check often. Like, there's never, never really big bowls there. But like, I just keep checking it. I go in there and I hear a bugle at night from the truck and it's like raining. I saw some elk, but I couldn't see anything. Great. So I go in the next morning and like, big bowl, like, good bowl. Anyway, I, I gotta get the win, right? So I make the loop, go around. And he's bold and he's super talkative. Like, he's very talkative. Lots of elk, but they get over this hill and like I'm kind of around the other side and I'm. I'm watching him and I literally had switched from binos to spotter because I want to get some film of him. And I'm watching the cows and all of a sudden it was like, oh, where to go? You know, I was like, oh, he must be down there. I must have missed where he was or. But I can still see all the cows and like two cows start peeling off. Go another way. And then like to a cow and a calf go this way. And I'm like, that's weird. Like, where is everyone but the main, the main herd of cows is right there. He's got to be right here, you know. And I heard a bugle kind of to my left on my side of the draw, right? And I didn't think much of it, just sounded small and like the bull never came back out. Like I watched all the cows and it was like at 9am this bull just like peeled off with one cow and left. And I'm in retrospect, I'm pretty positive.

It was the one I heard.

And I was just like that, that's weird, you know, like, how did he just peel off from all these cows, right? You know, maybe in, you know, in retrospect, it's like very obvious, but it's like sometimes they just leave.

Yeah, yeah. I think as a general rule, those big bulls, they don't like all the, all the chaos that's going on. You know, all those smaller bulls, right, they're just trying to get in there, they're sniffing all the calves and the big bulls are trying to run them off constantly. I think they got kind of like the whitetails do, you know, they just go in there and they pick out one or two didn't leave with them and just try to find somewhere where there's kind of some seclusion.

How do you target those bulls? They're not like, you know, we always say the herd ball like. So if a bull's not with 20 cows, how do you find him?

Glass. Glass, Glass. You know, that's, that's really the key.

Are they usually within a half mile, mile of the herd though, or are they like, is it just like, how do you, how do you nail down where they are? What advice do you have?

I don't know. I'm a big optics guy, like Glass, Glass, Glass, Glass. Mornings, evenings, you know, I think they're gonna be, as a general rule, within a few miles of the big herd. You know, they're not picking up these cows and staying with them, you know, taking them 10 miles away, you know. You know, I think they're going to move them a mile or two, something until they breed them or until they're, you know, done estrus and then they just come back and grab another one. And that's not everyone, you know. But I again, I'm kind of painting a broad stroke here, but as a general rule, I think that's what they do where I'm at, where I hunt. But that bull Alicia killed this year, I mean that was a pretty good bull. Three, almost 370, 360 something. Five or 300. 368. And he had all the cows. He'd been there the whole time. You know, there was a pretty big group there that was a crazy herd. It's this way every year in this herd, say there's 30 elk there, there's 15 bulls and there's 15 cows. So many bulls there, most of them dinks, you know, but so many bulls there. Like equally as many bulls as cows. But he was there in the middle of it. Had.

Did the bulls switch around or is it the same bowls?

Definitely the bulls switch around.

You know, you ever had that where like you're like today there's these bulls and the next day it's like, all new bulls seems like same cows, but you're like, I'm pretty sure these are.

All different bulls, or at least, you know, there's only really about five you can recognize. Right. Once they start to get so soft, I don't. I don't know, 10 of them, but the top five biggest ones. Yeah. It's like sometimes they're gone, and then a new one comes in. Yeah, but that bull she killed was far and away the best bull in that herd. And he was there the whole time in the middle of all those elk, you know, all those other bulls and cows. He seemed fine with it. You know, we watched him for a week there, more than a week.

Did you guys end up cutting him off or. I think she. She told us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was bedded up in some timber. We knew they were feeding down below on some private. And she just cut him off coming out of the timber down there. Yeah, yeah. And that was just from experience of. We hunted that area before. Kind of knew roughly where they like to come based on when they're in this location. This is where they like to go. Yeah. And they were in that location, and she's like, oh, I kind of know where they want to go, because that's the way they usually come. And she just beat them there and come by.

But how much. How much of that does. How much of, like, just knowing the area, knowing the elk plays into your success is like, a lot of hours, a lot of time watching.

I. I honestly, if there's, like, one key to success, I think it's know your areas, like, hunt them for a long period of time. You know, I. I'm not the type of guy that bounces around and hunts here. One year over here, one year over here, one year. I. I think that's the key, man, is just. I mean, I'm talking an area, you know, it's 100 square miles, but.

Right.

But it's like, I know it really.

When elk are here, they do this, and like, that's.

And that's how you kill them. It's like you finally find one you want to shoot. It's like, okay, I kind of know what they do here. I've watched them for the last few years or ten years or whatever. It's like, I kind of know what they like to do and what they're going to do. I think that's the biggest piece of advice when people ask, you know, hey, is it better to go, you know. Yeah. Look at a ton of country and find you Know, more elk or just stay in your. What? You know?

Well, and you kind of talked about, like, having a half dozen herds of elk, but, like, what's too many? Are you, Like, I'll just focus in on these six so I can watch them.

I don't know. I've never had too many. I haven't had that. I haven't had that. I almost always have a bowler, too, that I can find that I want to kill. You know, if I go to this spot and like, oh, there's nothing in there worthy, or they're not there that time, you know, I'll bounce to the next one. It's like, I know where there's. Usually by opening of season, I kind of have a pretty good idea of a couple shooter bulls where they're at, you know, the problem with where I hunt a lot is so much private, public, you know, trying to catch them all in the public, you know, can be hard. Like, you can watch them all day long, but it's nothing.

How do you balance that? Because I, I, I mean, you know, this bowl, but, like, I had a bowl that was like, 99 private, and you have to, like, just wait. And it feels like you're wasting your entire season.

Yeah.

Watching elk.

You can't hunt.

Yeah. And that's a game you got to play, too. Right. If they never leave or leave, you know, 1% of the times, like, I don't waste my time, you know, I'll go somewhere else if I can't find any elk, period, I'll go there and check it out.

Right.

But, yeah, I've done, I've made that mistake, too, where it's like, ah, here's, here's a giant, you know, like, I want to kill this bull. And I could see it. Right.

Yeah.

But he never leaves. And it's like, I'm just frustrated, like, well, I'm going somewhere else because I just wasted my time, you know? Yeah.

When you lose a bull, what advice do you have on turning him back up? Like, how? Like, hypothetically, you say, man, there's a bull, but he just disappears. You try to turn it back up.

You just like, yeah, I mean, that bull that Alicia missed opening day this year, that was like our number one bull for the year, the biggest one we had found preseason or anything. And after he left, like a week later, couldn't find him. Man, I, well, I, that's why I didn't shoot an elk until, like, the second to last day of season, because I tried to relocate him all season. Season. I mean, Any piece of public that was within a 20 square mile place, you know, I was hunting and I had cameras trying to find him. I never. Only picture I got of him after that was he came back to his original spot where Alicia missed him one day, got a picture of him, and that was it. Never. And I hit that spot 20 different times, you know, through the rest of the season, you know, glassing and looking in that area where she killed him, I can see a lot of country right there. Like, if he was in there, I would know. But I hunted hard. I don't know where the hell that thing. Well, I do probably know because there's a big ranch there that no one really gets on other than they hunt it and some friends maybe, but. And it's a pretty sizable ranch. Maybe. How far is it from there? Three miles away. I'm guessing that's where he hangs out. I'm guessing because he ain't on no public within 20 square miles of there, I'm pretty sure. So, yeah, I try to turn him up, but sometimes you're just limited on access.

Right.

You know, you just can't go where they probably are.

Yeah.

And he goes there, I don't think because of pressure. I think he just chooses to rut there for some reason.

So it's like one of those bulls you gotta kill opening week or it's not gonna happen.

Yeah, you got it. You have one week. Yeah.

You've killed a lot of bulls first week of October, last day of season, like that. What's your advice on getting it done that. Like that late in the season?

I did.

You went over water like in October, sometime the year before last or something.

Like that this past fall, which we were 20, 24 season. Yeah, I shot one over water late. Yeah. I think it was a second to last day of season. So, like, October 15th is somewhere in there.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was still kind of warm, but yeah. Yeah, that was a crazy hunt too. I shot a bull. This is a really funny story. A super dinker bull. This was 15 years ago over water. He was pawned. It was froze over. Is in October, super cold. He. He was pawing at the ice, trying to break it up to get to some water, and I just slipped in and shot him while he was trying to break the ice. Like. Yeah, you know, middle of October, right before the season was over.

Yeah, that's crazy.

But yeah, that bull I shot this year. Yeah, he was coming to water. He had been coming to water. I kind of knew he was in there, but I just Let him be. Because I had some other bulls I was looking at, but another bull that he didn't move for the whole season. He was in there all season long. It's no pressure to get in there, though. Like, there was zero hunters in there. Well, that's not true. I did see one guy in there one time, but I had cameras in there on this waterhole and he. He had been there from August, and I shot him October, you know, 15th or something, whatever. Like two days before season.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How do you. What's your overarching thought on cameras? Like, I know you run a ton of cameras. Like, what's pros, cons?

I got a lot of love hate relationship. Yeah, it's a love hate. I really enjoy it.

For hunting or for trail camera? That's an entire, like, different hobby.

Yeah. No, yeah. I definitely have an opinion on these. So time consuming. These things are so much work. Like, it's insane. And I have. I don't think they really helped me in hunting in any way, shape or form, but it's fun. It's like every time I go check cameras or something, it's like Christmas Day. I'm like, oh, what do I got? What am I gonna get? You know? Yeah, you get some, you know, get some super cool pictures. And it's really fun, you know, to see, you know, whether it's elk or deer or mountain lions or black bears or big bulls, little bulls. It's fun and I put a lot of time and effort into it. But to link trail cameras to me ever killing an elk, I don't know if there's a link there anywhere, really. I don't think so. I mean, I don't know if anything.

I think it's also like, false data points. Like, you know, like, you can, like, look at the camera and be like, oh, there's not a big one here. But if I didn't know, if I didn't look at that camera, like, I may go just find a big bowl there. Like, I. I do think there's like, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

Yeah. And anyone that's run a lot of cameras, there's so much work. You know, batteries are always dead or there's a branch in front of it or the elk just mess with them. My biggest thing is the damn elk mess with them.

Yeah.

I don't know what the thing is with elk. They're just curious or they hear it. But other than bears, the elk are the worst. Deer don't care. Antelope don't care. But constantly, you got to put them somewhere above where they can't reach it or on the edge of something where they can't get to it. Otherwise, they just mess it up. Yeah. You know, you go there, you know, you think, I'm gonna get tons of cool pictures on this waterfall. Right. And you get there, and it's ripped off, hanging on the ground.

And the cows, too. Like, cows mess with them.

Beef cows. Yeah. They're always in messing with them. Yeah. So they're a ton of work. I do it a lot. I get a lot of cool pictures, but I don't know how much it actually helps me in the whole hunting.

I think you get to see a bunch of country. Yeah.

Yeah. I think what it does for me the most for hunting is, are there elk here or not? You know, I can run a camera in a spot I've never been to. I don't have to hike in there every time and glass and look. I can just set up a camera on whether it's a. A trail or a fence crossing or a water hole.

As I said, water holes or trails or, like, what's your, like, go to spot?

My go to is water where they're not moving, so I can get multiple pictures. The trails are sometimes hard because you get a picture of the back half of an elk or, like, the half of a beam, you know, the front, you know, the brow tines, it's like. Like, oh, I don't. I don't know. You know, they're just moving. Sometimes it's hard. You can't get a good spot to put a camera. You know, like, for a deer, it's different. You can pound a steel post on the ground and put a camera exactly where you want it, but the elk will just mess with it. They'll rip it off the post or whatever. A lot of times, you can't get the angle that you want for the camera. So I like. Like water or something where they're stationary and they're moving around.

Right.

Or on a trail, if you can get it to point up or down a trail, that's obviously the best.

Yeah. The problem with water is, like, I feel like they mess with them, like, whereas the trail, they're just walking by, so they don't mess with them nearly as much. But if you get the water, it's like, man. Well, water equals beef, cows messing with it. But, like, that seems to be, I don't know, equal problem.

Yeah, that's another big problem with trail cameras is, you know, you get 2,000 pictures of beef cows, you know.

Yeah.

Going through it.

If you. If you see beef cows, do you shy away from an area?

No, I don't think the elk avoid the beef cows at all. It just makes moving in on elk, stocking elk more difficult because, you know, even if the cows don't spook, they're curious and they're bunching up and the elk can tell, you know, the cattle are onto something and they don't like that. But no, I don't think the elk are necessarily not where the cattle are. You know, they'll move amongst them all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even on the water holes. So it seems like.

I don't know.

I think that if the cows hit a water hole, you know, so, you know, the times where they. Like a cow, cows will just. Moocows will get on a water hole and they won't leave it. It seems like it kicks the elk off.

It definitely does. Like, the elk and the cattle don't want to water at the same time.

Right. And if the cows are living on it.

Yeah, yeah. The elk won't come in there, right? No, like, the elk. Barely, like, barely. The elk don't want to, like, rub shoulders with the cattle.

Right.

You know, if they're in the same pasture and they got to walk through them or something, they're fine with that, but they won't go drink, you know, out of same tank or the same pond. So. Yeah, like. And there are times where the cattle just hang out on water and they never leave. Yeah. There's no elk or gonna water there.

Yeah. All right, last question. What's the secret to finding big bulls?

I would say my secret, you know, it depends on where you're hunting. But, like, where I go and where I hunt, it's glass, glass, glass, you know, look as many elk as you can look at, and glass, glass, glass. You know, lots of work. Yeah, I mean, it's. It is a lot of work. You know, it's like anything I've ever been successful at in life is relative to how much work I put into it. You know, it's hard to kill big bulls consistently without either a, paying a ton of money or B, just working your ass off, you know, those are your two options.

You know, I mean, you've kind of done it on public ground for a long time. You ever going to buy a fancy lease and just hunt there?

You know, so I've. I've thought of it. It's like, boy, for all the money I spend in gas and driving, you Know now thousands and thousands and thousands of miles of driving, but I feel like then you're limited to whatever elk are on the place. You know, it's like, oh, you know, there's just not.

Here's what the options are.

Yeah. Like. Well, I don't. None of those are like, maybe what I would like to shoot. So what do I do? But I feel obligated if I were to pay a lease or something, you know, like go leave that and go hunt some blm somewhere else, you know, I mean. Yeah.

So.

Yeah, I've never paid to hunt anywhere or have any leases just because of that reason. I just like to bounce around and I want to find the biggest bull that I can find, wherever that is. You know, it might be. I mean, it's on public land, but it might be here. I'd be 100 miles away. I'd be 50 miles this direction. I don't know where it's going to be, but I feel like a lease. You're just so tied down.

Yeah.

You know, you're.

You're really just at the helm of whatever's on the property.

Yeah.

It's like, do you wait? Great. I mean, some of these places have really good bowls, but I don't know, finding them to me is like finding that big bowl on public is like, I don't know.

It's everything. Yeah.

Yeah. If I was to hunt it, to hunt like a. On a 380 bull on private, just. I mean, maybe be cool. I can't say. I can't say either way. I've never done it, but it's like sometimes just finding a 380 bull on public ground, you're like, oh, my God.

Right?

I did it right.

Yeah. I mean, I've knocked on a lot of doors, you know, where it's like, hey, you know, I do see a 380 bull on there, you know, but there's so much money in elk hunting. Like, 99 of those people aren't gonna let you elk hunt. Antelope, maybe, whitetails maybe, but man elk, there's so much money in those big bulls that it's really, really.

These days, everyone knows what they have.

Yeah.

Because someone's asked them or someone's told them.

Yeah. And I mean, I'm all about hunting private if I can. I've shot a couple. A couple bulls on private that I've got access to. But yeah, I mean, out of the 25, I've shot maybe three on private.

Four.

I don't know.

Just knocking doors.

Yeah. Yeah. Knocking doors or one, one as a friend. But yeah, pretty much it's just building a relationship with someone. But most of the time, yeah, the, the really good places you can't get on there are they already have, you know, people leasing it or outfitters or whatnot. So it's usually the small pieces. And that's kind of, that's another bit of advice that I always tell people, like, get away from those big pieces of public, you know, everyone sees, you know, the 2500 acre pieces or 25,000 acre pieces. I like this one section over here or these two sections here or four sections here. You know, those are a lot of overlooked pieces.

And same with the primate too though. Like, everyone's like, you're not knocking on the 10,000 acre ranch and like getting magic permission. No. Like maybe on a 640 acre ranch or like parcel that you have to get a hold of a guy who lives two states away.

Yeah, yeah. But like, for sure, that's exactly what I look at. If I see a, you know, a giant bull on, you know, a relatively smaller piece, like I'm, you know, pretty likely to go knock on their door. But if it's 10,000 acres, I'm like, I don't even try. Maybe I'm missing out.

But no. Yeah, pretty rare.

This happened to an antelope place. One time we drove past this place to go elk hunting for a decade. We drove past this place, always loaded with antelope, all on these haystacks kind of around this guy's farmyard and stuff right off the highway. Me and Kylie and Jason, all hunting buddies. And one day we're like, let's just stop and ask this guy. Plus like 10 years of driving by or whatever. Many years, you know, we stopped and asked him, he's like, you guys want to bow on ammo? Go for it, I don't care. We're like, are you kidding me? Like right off the highway. We hunted there for years. We shot a pile of ammo on that place. Yeah. Just no one ever asked. I think a lot of people have the same idea as us. It's like, assume this guy doesn't let anybody, huh? You know?

Yeah.

But he was like, oh, should have had it. Yeah, it was great for bow hunting. He had all these hay bales and stacks and we were sneaking around haystacks. Yeah. I don't know, we shot a bunch of antelope on there.

But dude, that's super cool. Well, I wasn't going to bring up the source subject to, you didn't get an elk tag this year, but because I was about to say, you know, best of luck this year, but. Yeah, best of luck, antelope button this year.

Yeah, I might not even get that. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't draw an elk tag this year, so it looks like it's going to be general season for me.

That really puts a ding in your streak. You gotta go shoot a spike just so you can keep your streak.

Yeah, I don't think it's going to be a trophy year for me this year, but I'm kind of excited, honestly, to go test your.

Test yourself in a new place.

Yeah, you gotta have to find a new spot somewhere different. Yeah. Be kind of cool, I guess. But I don't. I'm not gonna, you know, hold out for a giant, I don't think. But sometimes that's maybe when you kill them. I don't know.

There's giants in the general.

I know there are. There definitely are. And I started to do a fair bit of research and looking and I have a few spots I want to check out here. I'm gonna probably wait another 30 days or so.

Before you really start scouting.

Yeah, before I really start looking.

But I got the sneaking suspicion that you're gonna kill a giant.

Oh, gosh. Wouldn't that be something on a general tag? Not that the tags I ever have are very limited draw, you know.

Right.

I was telling you earlier, like I've drawn a tag every single year for 24 years. So they're not like. They're hard tags.

Yeah.

That's a difficult day.

Yeah.

I'm not drawing not a coveted tag by any stretch. Well, thanks for coming on, man. Best of luck this year as always. You've freaking crush them as usual, I'm sure.

Try.

Yeah. Thanks, man.

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Alrighty, guys. Thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's a hundred percent free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website, www.elkhunt 201.