Reading Elk Like a Pro: Herd Dynamics and Solo Strategies with Tom Schneider

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This is the elk hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content.

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All right, Tom, welcome to the podcast, man. How are we doing?

Hey, good. Thank you for inviting me, Cody. I appreciate it.

I mean, you're. You're kind of a legend, man. Like, I love hearing your elk hunting knowledge and stories and. And everything. And I mean, pretty fitting. I mean, you had a pretty successful year.

Did that.

Did you launch that video already from this year?

Yeah, so that we.

Yeah, it is. And it's really hard. And it's actually one thing that Adam and Tana and the family we've talked about are like, you know what, it'd be nice if we can test and get a couple early videos out and see how they produce versus usually we wait till December after the hunting season. So I had a pretty good window for the past couple weeks to in trying to crank out a video to see how it works, but it's a little chaotic. This is kind of a test because I'm trying to get other videos from Adam and Tana and they're still hunting and Travis is still hunting. And then I'll like, I'll edit a video enough to where I'm like, I'll send it. I'm like, hey, what are you guys thoughts that I don't hear back from an antenna for a week? Well, everybody's hunting still. It's still hunting season. And it's really tough. Like, you know, I'll, you know, you first kill something. You post about people. Like, when's the video coming out? Not this early. I could tell you that. I. Dude, I can't.

But I hate when, like, people like, save it until next, like, August or whatever, you know, and it's like, yeah, I mean, like, it's. That's super cool, like, to be able to put it out. So that did. Congrats. Yeah. So, I mean, the video, I think the Video is called one on One, right?

Yeah.

And, dude, I actually got it. It was funny because I saw you post it and I got a ton of questions this year from people who are like, hey, how do I do it solo? How do I hunt solo? So first, I mean, people should go watch the film. We don't want to give up too much, but maybe we could, like, talk a little bit about, like, why, like, if you want, like, I would love to hear the story. So we could, we could do the story. I'm pretty sure people will still go watch the video if we tell them what happened. Like any good hunting film. Spoiler alert, he kills one. No. Yeah, but I would love to hear kind of like how the story went and then maybe we could talk about the difficulties and like, you know, how you approach it as a solo hunter, you know, differently than, you know. And I know you've killed a ton of bull solo, so. Good topic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Definitely a really good topic. I actually even. Funny. So when I did, when I just announced the YouTube video that we posted, I actually told a story. And so, you know, in my teens and you know, I, I was very fortunate where I live because I was able to pretty much throughout my entire teens, from the age of 12 and on, I was killing an oak every year, you know, and my dad was an, you know, a very avid elk hunter, very avid mule deer hunter. So, you know, he got us in right from the get go. And, you know, so obviously the first, you know, when I was a kid, I wasn't really thinking of killing a big herd ball. And I think the, the mystery of elk always stuck out to me of how do you kill one of these herd bulls? And back in this, this was before the wolf issue we were having. And so we had a lot of elk. And you know, my dad hunting with my dad hunting with all these old timers that, that I learned a lot from. They would let the, the runners leave. They're just like, they'd have a herd bull bugling. They bugle back and the bull starts to move off. They would, they'd walk away from it. And we did that a lot. We're like, oh, that's a runner. We don't want a runner. And so we were always killing five points, you know, and smaller sixes or Travis had just this very. I don't want to say he had just the green thumb, but Travis killed a lot of big bulls in his teens. And you know, his, you know, he killed a 360 bull that was by Itself. But it was really early on. It was when he was still trying to round cows.

Yeah.

And just, just cow call and early season cow calling. He came in quiet and Travis stuck at big360 bull. But anyways, I felt like this, this challenge and calling in her bowls was like, man, how do you do this? Like, how do you pursue that? Not just doing that, but doing it solo. And there was, it was, it was about 15 years ago. I was by myself in the woods, and it was that time where I'm like, you know, I need to figure this out. I need to. Because we were at that tipping point where if I'm going to kill big bulls, I got to start chasing runners, you know?

Yeah.

The most, most of these runners are herd bulls and they're big bulls.

Right.

And, and avoiding those, you're not going to get the big bull. So we got to figure this out. And, and I remember, I mean, like I said, I was. I was still fairly young, and.

I got. I got a bull bugling, and it was about at 10 o' clock in the afternoon, and he was not very talkative. He bugled at me. I tried bugling back and I had no responses whatsoever. And I was like, man, this bull doesn't want to play. And I. So I ate a sandwich and he would just bugle on and off. So then all of a sudden I got quiet. It's like, this bull's not wanting to talk. I'm just going to get quiet. And all of a sudden he started firing off bugle, bugle, bugle, bugle, bugle, bugle. And at that time I'm like, you know, this sucker's gonna run for me. I know it. Let's just move in, get in his little bedroom, and then, then try calling. You know, this is kind of where I was starting to figure it out a little bit. And obviously there's several different ways to hunt herd bulls, but this is just one of. One of the techniques that I use and, and which I found with this scenario where I got him quiet and.

And back up a little bit. So when I was getting him bu. Going previously, he was slowly moving off. And so that's kind of why I got quiet, you know, And I'm like, well, he, he. What I found. And, and it's the same hunting with my dad is they're bugling back to see where we're at. Sometimes they're talking to their cows, but sometimes they'll be about me to see my location.

Right.

And then they know where to run.

Yeah.

And and so I got quiet and he was, he was getting really, he was freaking out. He's like, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And I'm like, well, I ain't gonna tell you. Yeah. Until I'm close. Until we're, you know, and you almost, in a sense, you have to, you force them to fight. You're so close. You're in that little bedroom throw, you know, I got in really close. I threw a, just a scream and bugle and.

With a little growl in there. And I started to rake and I heard that rake back. And then he, he walked past me at, I'd say is probably close to 20 yards. And the one thing, you know, I mean, I've hunted desert, I've hunted wide open prairie, I've hunted the sagebrush country. But I'd say 70% of our hunts are heavy timber, thick brush, really thick brush. And I'm talking about thick brush. Some of the alder brush that we deal with is 12ft tall. Some of the snow brush is chest high. And so when I saw the bull walking past, all I see is his pedestals. I'm like, oh, great, I don't even have a shot. And. And then, and then I see this trail. There's a trail that cut right in front of me. And it was just this tiny little opening. It was just, I mean, it was about a 3 inch opening. I'm like, when he walks, as soon as I see that crease, I gotta let that arrow go because I see it's a nice bow. And he walked right through there. And I let that arrow go. And it was just one of those, obviously in my own head. I play it slow motion. I see that arrow just perfectly placed right behind the shoulder. And then, and then in a second he's gone. And you just see the brush wiggle, right. It's like, okay. And. And this is actually before we started doing Stuck in the Rut. It was like, it was literally like the year before we started filming our hunt. So we never, I never got that one on film. And. And so the bull took off and I did the whole, you know, and just getting a detail rule of thumb in our family, really good shot. 30 minutes. Wait 30 minutes before tracking. If you shoot too far back, like in the guts, or you feel like, ooh, that could have been better. Wait four hours. That's a rule of thumb. Because you don't want to. If a bull is injured, the last thing you want to do is bump them and keep them, keep bumping them. You want to let them die. And so. But I saw the shot. It was great. I gave it a half hour. I heard what we call the death crash. These are good signs.

Yeah.

That you hear. You hear just like. All of a sudden, it just sounds like. I don't know, what's the best. Like a tree fell down. Like the sound of a tree crashing. You hear that? Where the ball just loses consciousness and just tumbles. And so I heard that shortly after. Tracked him 70 yards, he was dead. And I was like, that was really cool. I was solo on that hunt. That was the time, too, where. And I still am like, this. Where I wasn't really. I don't really pay attention how far I go. And so I. I feel like if you. If you start counting your miles and you're. You're like, oh, that. That beagle's too far away.

I don't know. You're just. You won't push that.

Yeah. You're not gonna kill because you won't push a little bit farther, you know?

Yeah. If.

You know, you're already five miles in, you're like, I probably shouldn't go there. But if you have them accounting, then what's the difference?

Yeah. And so. And that's where I'm at. I'm like. I'm like, worry. Kill the elk first and then worry about packing it out. We'll figure a way. We've always found a way.

So we always say, that's a future me problem.

And I. And I've done. Yeah. And now I have another story for that, too. But anyway, so I did. So I ended up killing that bull. And thank goodness. So back then, Travis still had horses and mules, and I was able to get a hold of him, and so I quartered him out. Well, all I had to do at that time, I was. I was. I'm just kind of thinking of the area. It's. It was six and a half miles back and.

And 2000 vertical being elevation gain.

Yeah.

So it's quite the climb. And. And so I. All I did is I worked up the bowl, and I just got those quarters to the trail, and I. And I set them in a spot. I had the option of the north slope, so I was able to hang those cores that. I'm cool. And then, you know, it was actually. I believe it was the next day, we got the. The meals. Well, let's see, a meal and a couple horses, and we packed the whole thing out. So. Yeah, we always. But we always don't have that Option.

Right, right, right, right. And so that was kind of your first, like, herd bowl solo. And I would say, like, you know, that's 15 years ago. Maybe we could go to the story of this year and then we'll kind of like, what, what is the. Like, you know, how has the tactics changed? Or like, how, you know, what is like the go to now when you're solo herbal? And maybe what was different? So I don't know how, how did this year go? Is it exact same scenario?

So it's very similar. Um, but yeah, so the one thing like, you brought up, I. I felt like over time you start perfecting well there you perfect the basics, but you also perfect even the more advanced techniques too. Right. Because a lot of the knowledge, a lot of people may have the same knowledge as I do, but it's about perfecting the basics in a lot of ways. And. But also it's reading the animals. I think it's. It's all about learning about the behavior of the animals. So I don't go in. I'm just saying, oh, this is a herbal. I'm going to do step A. Step B and C is going to happen. Right. It's like, okay, what is this bull doing? Like, is he a herbal? Okay, he's a herbal. Well, why is he running from me? Is he running from me because he doesn't want me to take his cows or do the cows, are they satisfied with the bull they have, and they're actually the ones doing the running? That's what a lot of people actually don't know is sometimes the cow is leading in. Yeah.

How do you tell the difference? How do you know the difference?

Sometimes it's. What I do is I listen to the bugle.

The bull is typically talking to his cows, and it's a very short bugle, but it's knowing. Typically if I hear the bull talking to his cows, he's just trying to catch up.

He'S trying to keep up. And. And I learned this, you know, it's hard learning this in thick timber country. And so a lot of this I learned actually hunting the wide open terrain of Wyoming and some areas of Montana that are more open too. Right. I mean, I hunt the brushy side of Montana, but I've hunt the wide open side of Montana, too. But you actually watch the behavior. You can tie in the bugles to what they're doing, and things start to make sense and puzzle pieces start. You start putting the puzzle pieces together. And some people think that timber bowls are different than these prairie Bulls, they're not. They're the same elk. Their. Their behavior is the same. Everything's the same. It's just their habitat's different, their food source is different, predation's different. So they may act a little bit differently by that. But again, that's going back to just putting your mind in the elk. Like, okay, what type of elk am I working on here? So usually, like, a runner that's running from me, he's talking to me, he's bugling to me. And I can tell he's bugling. He's doing a bugle like he would to a bull elk.

Right.

But like, the bull I killed this year, the first thing I was. I was able to identify, I was able, for one, identify he was a herbal, because he was doing that bugle talking to his cows.

On his own or did you.

On his own? Yeah, on his own. And. And I've also learned from some really skilled hunters, some that have killed big herbals over the years, the least amount of bugling, the better. And that's another technique that I've learned, is just like, you know, if you don't have to bugle, don't. I think a lot of people paint this.

And I'm just. I'm just stereotyping here, so not everybody's like this, but I think a lot of people, they. They paint this picture of having this. This dual bugle.

Yeah.

Theme with the bull. And they. And so.

I think a lot of people just want it. Like, I get it. You want to hear him bugle. And so, like, you know, it's fun. And you're like, he bugles and you. You, like, you know, everyone wants to cut him off, and it's like, man. Yeah. To your point, like, from your first scenario, I'm a huge believer in, like, curio. Let curiosity kill the cat. I love that. Because that's what elk do to you. And so, like, when you, you know, shut up a little bit, you. You kind of leave that question in their mind versus, like, if you're just trying to call all the time, man, maybe you get him fired up, or maybe, like, you just push them away, you know, as, like, huge. Yeah. Huge believer. That too.

Yeah. And. And again, you. Exactly. And then you also want to think of the mind of the elk, too. Like, calling is not always in the calls. Yeah, I know that sounds weird. The raking, the hoof prints, all that. I mean, I've heard guys that. I mean, they're a little more extreme. Like, I rolled up rocks down the hill. I'm like, that's a little extreme.

Yeah. But.

And I think a lot of it has to do with when you're hunting in areas with high amounts of hunting pressure.

I notice a big difference. Let's say I pack in with horses and meals and call elk. It's actually pretty easy to call it out.

Right. Right.

When you. And. And so when we had them and we'd pack in 20 plus miles, the elk are very callable. They don't even question coming in when they. When they actually come in. They come in. They don't look behind. Like, when you're hunting areas with high amounts of hunting pressure, those elk are coming in, looking behind every tree. Yeah. And if they. And if they don't feel comfortable, they're like, I'm not hearing these sounds. They back out. And. And so I honestly do this with whitetails too, is it keeps them comfortable, is just a little noise that they're comfortable with. And so with elk raking. Raking keeps them comfortable. If I don't want to do more bugling, I'm like, okay, I'm over bugling here. And I'm kind of going back to the bull I killed this year. When I called him in, he would hold up. He would. He would come in and then he'd stop for a second and I just tickled the branches. And then he'd start coming in again, and I can hear him crashing. Then he stopped and I tickled the branches. And that he just wanted to hear noise. That's. That's all they wanted to hear. And I was at the point where I'm like, I don't really want to bugle. Right. I know he's right there. I'm like, I'm pretty much done bugling at this point. He knows we're. We're gonna fight. I don't have to tell him anymore.

Oh, interesting. Okay.

And so he's already raked back at me already. So I'm like, we've already. He's already signaled to me we're going. It's happening. So. So I'm just tickling the branches and it just. And he makes. Gets comfortable. And all of a sudden I saw him come out and his walking out, walking. And then, you know, and I. And other things you have to think about. I know I kind of jumped into the story. Yeah. Pretty quicker than I.

But I guess in a slight backup. So, yes, he was bugling on his own. I moved in quiet. And then I. When I got to a certain. I'm like, okay, I'm Pretty close. I can hear cows chirping in the woods. I can hear him talking to his cows. At this point, I don't think he's going to run from me. I screamed and then I just started to rake.

And then how aggressive was your bugle at him?

It was, it was a very half aggressive. Like I didn't go too full extent. It was a very short. I was almost. In a sense, it's like I'm trying to talk to his cows too.

Like that.

Yep. Yeah. And so I, I bugled toward his cows.

More like a short. Yeah, more like a short. Just end a little bit hard. Show a little aggression in there. Like. Yeah, I like it.

Yeah, just like mid ground, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And I didn't even do chuckles nothing. And then I started to rake. And then I started to hear him raking too.

But then I started.

Did he answer back when you, when you bugle that?

Oh, right off the bat, it was so I was like, oh, this is nice.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, this, this may actually happen. And so that's when I actually turned on the, the, the camera because I knew. I'm like, okay, we can, we can let this run. You know, like, it's camera. Yeah, it's game on. And then I. And then I was like, I was actually more in a rush. I'm like, okay, don't work them up too much because I still don't even have shooting lanes.

And so I was actually maneuvering and I'm like, I, yeah, just be careful. Don't over, don't call, don't. Don't work them up too much just yet. I need to find a good shooting lane. Then I finally found one down. Down the hill from me. I'm like, okay, that's a good shooting lane.

Yeah, choose the battlefield, man.

Yeah, exactly. And so. And then from there, that's when I continued the. And I really, I think from that. And you'll see in the video, I think from that point I just bugled once and then I just stuck to raking. And. And then I heard him come and then I just kind of watched him. And what I love, there's pros and cons of hunting, thick timber country that I'll start with the con. The con is there's just not a lot of shooting lanes. Yeah. The con is you can't see what you're calling in. What's nice hunting, open country. You're like, oh, that's a rag. Well, I don't have to go two miles down that hole and trying to call him in to find out that he's a rag bull in the thick timber country. You're like, you don't know until you go.

Yeah.

So you, you have to chase every bugle.

But the, the con with hunting that open country is how wide open it is. And I feel like those elk, they're so used to using their eyes. Yep, they're, they're, they're very visual elk and so they need to see something. And these, these timber elk, living the timber, they, they know that well, they're not going to see anything unless they come in. So most my archery shots in the timber country are top pin. I rarely, I think I called what with. I called in actually quite a few elk this year and only two of the elk were in the 40 yard range. The others were all top in top 10. And, and so they usually, I call them in, they come in close. So anyways, this bull came, came in and just had a steady walk. And he'd look around and I'm like, oh shoot. Like, I didn't pull my bow back just yet. But I'm like, but I have a good window. As soon as he walks past, there's a little clump of, I think it were spruce trees. As soon as he walks past that clump of spruce trees, I'm gonna pull my bow back. You never ever want to pull back your bow. If you can see the elk's eyes, they can see you. And if you're still, you can wear a black shirt, you can wear tank top. But if you're completely still, yeah, you're most likely you're going to be okay. The problem is, is movement. They see that movement and you, you messed up the, the hunt. You know how many times guys like a bull walks out, you pull back, bull takes off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like it sees the movement. You could be all camoed up, your face could be all painted up, whatever. And now that I pulled back and the bull walked out and he kind of just looked my direction, looked pretty calm. He didn't, he didn't even seem like he was going to run. And I placed a, a very good shot. I feel like the problem with solo is you don't always have that perfect broadside shot. So you have to, and so you have to really make something happen. When I pulled back my bow, I had to make the choice. I'm like, do I put give him a frontal or do I give him behind his shoulder? I always choose. I always try to go behind the shoulder. And he was Not. He was quartered toward. But not enough. Not enough to where I felt like I could do a frontal. So I'm like, let's put it behind the shoulder. I put it behind the shoulder. When I saw that arrow sync, I was like, that is a dead elk.

Yeah.

Is it a guarantee? Never. It's never a guarantee.

Yeah.

But in my heart, like, I felt that deep down, I'm like, I feel good about that. I saw that arrow sink. That arrow just is sunk to the fletching. He's. And he just bolted out of there. And then I heard the coughing, which typically is a sign of lung blood. Yeah. I'm like, oh.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

I finally got. Yeah. So that's always a good. That's a good feeling. And then the one thing, the other thing. So I'm trying to think. I'm just kind of going through the steps for people here.

Well, you know, I didn't want to pause you in the middle of your story, but one of the things we could touch on was, man, the difficulty in solo out calling is that not getting picked off like an elk and just know exactly where you were. And I love what you did. You didn't even mention this, but you. You know, I always say, let. Let curiosity kill the cat, because when that bull comes in, if you've just been screaming back and forth, he's looking for you, at you, like he is. He knows where you just bugle from. And if you can not say anything, kind of let curiosity kill the cat. They come. They're kind of still looking for you. You know, it's like they come in, not sure where you exactly were. And a lot of times you're going to get a much better shot versus that bullet comes screaming in and just comes around the corner. Just. It's staring right at you. Good luck drawing, you know, and it's like, unless you timed it before, and even then it's. It's pretty hard. But. Yeah. Have you. How have you mastered the ability to get a shot solo? I mean, it's one thing to get into the red zone, but, like, how. What is your tip on, like, calling ball solo? How do you manage to get a shot more often than not?

Okay, so. And so I. I called in seven bulls this year. And. And that. And I don't know if that sounds like a lot or not, but out of those seven bulls, six of them gave. They. I would have. I. I had a shot on all of them. I was solo on all of them. No collar. And one was just the brush Was too bad. And he came in so fast. It was just one of those where I'm like, I bugled. He scared, like, oh, shoot. And he just came barreled in, like, throwing like he was. Oh, he was so mad. And he walked past me. He was actually. He was my. He was the second biggest bull. I mean, I would have killed him if he would have provided a good shot, but it's just the brush was too tall and it just. There was no shot where he came through, so I didn't even have time for a good setup. But I guess going back to what you're saying, how do you. How do you do that? What you got brought up was a good point. So, like I was saying, like, I was. When he was too close, I was too afraid to bugle. I was like, okay, you're giving away your location at that point, and you. You want to let him come in. You want to let him try to figure out what's going on.

And then that's. Honestly, it kind of worries me too, sometimes with the raking. If they hold up, I'm like. I'm like, I hate giving out my location, but I. Right, I just gotta tickle them. I gotta do something to get him to keep coming, otherwise he's gonna bolt, you know? And so I do as little calling as I can at that point. Like, I feel like I've already. He's already committed. Don't, Don't. Don't mess it up. And then I always. I always keep a read in my mouth. So when I pull back, you know, especially in this timber country, or it's not even necessarily a timber, it's just the brush. You. You have these windows you have to make happen, and you want to give them a call. If you gotta. You gotta stop the bull. You want to stop it with a call they're comfortable with. I, you know, you know, you hear, you watch the hunting videos and people go, matt, Matt. I'm like, that elk does not know that call. Yeah. It's like you're. You're right there, your chance and busting them out. But how natural it is to let out a simple cow call if you're. If you're really good with using one in your mouth, which we do, I pull back. And what I like to do is I like to do one short cow call to stop them. And usually they'll stop on a dime. They'll stop and look right at you, and. And then you got your window to take the shot.

But the other thing, too, and this is Actually, a controversial. I would say controversial, but I've heard people disagree with me on this. I've asked other experienced elk hunters, and they say, oh, they can pin you down no matter what. And I'm like, are you sure?

Like, I feel like if you face the bugle the direction you want the bull to come in, that. That can work, especially if you still got some dist.

Yep.

And I actually learned this from my little brother, Trevor, because he said that every bull he called in, every time he faced the bugle away from the bull, the direction he wanted to come in, the bull would pull that way. And. And I've actually been doing that, and it's been working well for me. Most of the elk, like, I said, those elk that I called in, I got them to come in the way I wanted them to, and it was the direction I faced the bugle. I don't face the bugle directly in the elk's face.

Right.

Especially when I'm close. When I'm close, I know they can hear me. I don't have to be any louder.

Right.

I'll try to direct it away from me. And even if it's a. And maybe they, like, kind of pinpoint me, but they're like 10 to 15 yards off. Hey, that still.

And. And then in that. In our stuff, I never want to be silhouetted, but I also look if the bull's coming in this way, I also want some stuff in front of me so that when they're coming in, they're not gonna. They're not gonna pin me off the bat. I want them to keep walking past and to where when they come past me. And again, not every scenario is perfect. Right. But you do the best you can in finding good shooting lanes. When I'm pulled back, I don't want to be sitting there silhouette my body. I want there to be brush behind me. I want there to be a tree behind me, something. Because if I'm out there silhouetted, I feel like they'll pin you off a little bit quicker. Yeah, but.

And especially that, you know, you get down that to that 20, 30 yards, it's like they just instantly, oh, there you are.

Yeah. They'll figure out pretty quick. Well, we were laughing about this this year, that this year, out of all years, the elk, when they came in, like, all the elk that came into me did not show much alertness when they first saw me. A trav was like, why do you think that is? My brother, older brother Travis. He's like, what do you think that is? I'm like, I think it's my long hair. I don't know what it is. Like, if it's my blonde hair, they see that. They're like, oh, that's an elk. But usually when they pin me, like, you know, some of these rag bulls and stuff I was calling in, I'm like, I'll let them go. But I. I, like, show myself to them, and they'd, like, look at me, and they quickly look away and keep coming in. And I'm like, I'm like, whatever. You can keep coming in if you want. It's up to you. But I don't know if it's the hair.

Yeah, but look like an elk.

Now, there's something to that, man. It's just like a. Like a chunk, maybe it looks like, like a chunk of yellow in the. In the brush. And they're like, oh, yeah, there's the elk. But I will say this. So the. Those decoys, Travis, I mean, we've all been using them. I honestly haven't used them a lot this year, but Travis used his on the bull he killed this year. And, man, those decoys, I mean, those actually work really well. I'm not gonna lie.

Yeah, really does it? My concern is always like, I almost don't want to be seen. So it's like, I mean, you. You don't want it until you need it. And then you're like, I wish I had a decoy right now.

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And that's. And so that's kind of what I was thinking, too. So that's why this year, well, and I'm in the heavy timber country. I really don't want. Like I said, I don't want them to pick. I want them to walk past me. So I don't want them to pick me out.

Right.

But tr. So Travis was actually hunting a burn, and it's. And he was hunting solo in a Burn. And.

And it worked.

It worked.

Did he have the one on the bow?

Yeah, he had it on the bow. The bull was staring toward him at 40 yards, and it. The bull pinned him. He didn't really know. Trav's like, oh, shoot. Like, yeah, I gotta move because I don't have a shot. He was scooting on his butt, and he was raking the tree at the same time and scooting on his butt. I haven't posted the video yet, but he's scooting on his butt, getting close to the elk. The bull stood there the whole time.

But I've had. I've had rag bulls. Oh, my gosh. You almost have to pull the decoy down because the rag bulls just keep coming. And. Well, this was in Wyoming. Trevor had that decoy, and we had a wide open. Wide open nothing. We were completely silhouetted, and Trevor had that decoy, and it. This bull was under 10 yards. He was at 7, and he was drooling. Like, there was actually drool. I'm not exaggerating. You can watch. If you're watching the video, you'll see the drool just, like, pouring out. Pouring out of his mouth. And the bowl is just like. He looks like he's drunk. Like, drunk in love. And he's just walking in, and he. Trevor got so nervous, he pulled the decoy away, and the bull saw him and bolted. Yeah, but no, those decoys were. I wouldn't say they work well. I've tried walking in on elk with them, and it doesn't. I think some elk are like, that doesn't look right. And I've had them bolt on me.

Do you think? Yeah, that's what it's. I mean, I would love. I. I've. Let's see. One time, I would. I would love to, like, use a decoy and move in on a herd. And I was like, I had this herd. I wasn't gonna shoot the bull. So I was like, I just want to see, like, how close I could get. And, like, I'm, like, cruising in through the timber. And there was, like, a cow that I didn't see to kind of to the right, and she bolted. And she probably look at me like, why is that guy carrying a sign?

Took off.

But yeah, I was wondering about that. You know, like, in a burn, do you think you could get away with just, like, slowly moving towards that a herd or.

No, I think it's on and off. It depends how you move. I'd say staying still was good. So, like, if we you know, let's say we're moving in a herd and we have elk that see us. We get the. Behind that decoy. And the guys who own that predator company, that was it. Predator decoys. They taught us that the. The twitch the ear.

Ah.

And they twitch the ear, and you'll see the cows like. And watch the demeanor of the cows. Their ears start to relax and they go back to feeding, and then you get back down, then you start moving again. If you're, you know, if you get a big herd like that and you're trying to get close to the herd bowl. But no, I mean, it's been amazing over and over again how those work. But similar to what you said, though. So Travis had a moose come in to him in Alaska this year with that decoy, and he kept the decoy down when the moose was first coming in. He didn't want the moose to see the decoy. And then he waited till the bowl was coming a little bit more on a broad side.

Yeah.

And when the bull got behind, you know, some stuff. And he pulled back the bow with the decoy.

Oh.

And so he kept his. Kept his bow down so he wouldn't. He didn't want the bowl to see the decoy just yet. The moose are a little bit. I don't say they're easier calling the note, but. Yeah, they kind of are.

Yeah. Yeah. Moose doesn't really have a fear of you anyway, so.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially those ones that have just. Well, I mean, some of those, like, probably never even seen people, you know.

Right, right. Or a decoy. So you had mentioned you called in seven bulls. How many of those bulls were, I would say runners. Were you dogging bugles or chasing bugles? And how many of those are just like you set up and called in, like, what's. What's kind of your MO There?

So. Three.

Four.

I'd say four of them were one. I barely can call a herbal. He was he. But he had cows, but he was a rag bull, but he owned cows. And he acted like he was macho and. And he was doing what I would say.

He was doing, that he was talking to the cows. And so I heard him. So first light. And I'm a pretty aggressive hunter. I go in there. But also I. I read the situation and Because I'm like, they're running. And they were running pretty hard, and I'm like. And. And I could tell his be. He wasn't running from. He was just bugling, talking to his cows, but they were moving pretty Quick. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure it's the cows doing that. It's a very high hunted area. So these cows, they've been around people. You know, the bull is just. He's just drunk. He's just calling them. And I'm like, I'll wait for. I was like. I was like, well, I still. I'm like, they're. I don't think they're gonna go far. I'm like, I started. I was looking on onyx maps, and I was seeing these benches right below me. And I'm like, in the past, I've been in here before. That's. Those are pretty good betting areas. I'll let them bed. I'm gonna keep hunting, go up the ridge. I even have a trail camera to check. They'll do a big loop. And then at midday, I'm gonna go into that betting ground and see if I. I can go and call, you know? And so I did that. I did a big loop. I go check my trail cam, come back down, and it's. It's midday. It is hot. It's early season, so it's still super hot. But I'm like, you can still pull a bull off nip. Yeah. And so I went to that betting grounds, and I'm like, But I started walking in there, and I'm like. And I'm. When I'm walking again, I'm trying to read the situation. Elk are smelling animals. I keep that. Keep your own nose in the air. And, you know, if you start smelling elk, if you start seeing tracks, I mean, I was getting to the point where I'm like, okay, like, I can smell elk there. Like, I'm getting close, and I'm like, let's try. And I did a calf. I did it. I actually did a calf call. And nothing. I'm like, okay, well, I'll try a bugle. And I. So I did a. Just a short bugle. Bull screams like, okay. So I got a little closer, and I found this big, old ancient stump got behind there. And I'm like. I'm like, that's. Pretty sure. That's. That is exactly where I dropped my pin. I'm like, that hurt's gonna bed right there, you know.

Right on it. And so I. I do some. I do some mewing. I just. I just. I just mute. I'm like, well. And I. And I'm like, I don't know if he's. So I decided not to quite. For some reason, I chose not to bugle this bull in and try just to stick to the mewing and. But then I kept on hearing hooves and kept on, and the hooves were coming closer. I'm like, just. It sounds like it's working. But he got quite. He stopped actually bugling. He wasn't even calling anymore. And I just hear. And then I could see. I could see tips of the antlers. Um, and. But he's still. Still thick timber. And he's still probably 80 yards away. And I'm like, I still can't see what he is, but he's coming, so just. Just be patient. And he finally came in, and I'm like, ooh, nah, he's not a shooter.

No.

And then he. Then he saw me and then bolted. Like that one, actually, he was on alert. He saw me and he bolted pretty quick.

But most of your oak, you're bugling them in?

Most of them, yeah. Most of the herbals are. And again, if I find, well, let's say above tree line, sometimes you could see like a. Like a. Like a satellite bowl, which could still be a nice six point. You see him bed down by himself.

Yeah.

My first impression is not to go close and bugle. Right. I'm going to try to get it close as I can. He's bedded for the day. Let off a couple soft cow calls.

And I've had to come right over.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. They're just like, oh, sweet. Free cow.

Yeah, free cow right next to me. Piece of candy.

Yeah, exactly. I actually did that for Travis. We. We did that, that, you know, we glassed one some bed down he set up. This was. This was like six or seven years ago. And I. I got right behind him. I let off, no joke, four cow calls. And I heard the crash. I was just like, do we already mess up the hut? I look, I peek over the hill to see Trav, and Trav's like, I got him.

Great.

Nice. Yeah, that was like. That was like way faster than I thought it was. Yeah.

But yeah, again, I'm just like. Because you can go that. Like I said, you this. I don't use the same technique for every elk. I'm trying to figure out what are we dealing with here? Okay. You know, herbals, there's a lot of different techniques I go into with her bulls, but the first thing is establishing. Are we. Are we calling a herbal here? Are we calling a rag bull or a satellite? I mean, not all satellites are rag bulls. There's some nice ones out there.

Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah. And like, not all herd bowls are Herd bowls, you know, like, yeah, like they.

Like I said, yeah, that five point. I'm like, I was so disappointed. Like, you were the. They sound bit. He sounded big. Yeah, they had a beautiful sounding bugle.

And it, like, goes into, like, the. It's so nice when you can see, but, you know, like, there's plenty of small sixes that are not confident, they're not aggressive, and it's like, yeah, they're a herd bowl, but, like, maybe not tomorrow. You know, like, maybe it's just a satellite that stumbled on some cows. Right. And again, time of year matters. Like, all these things you're, like, playing into your head.

Do you.

Do you try to work a bull up or you just, like, just looking for a hot one?

Oh, it's both. I mean, obviously. I mean, thing is, where we hunt areas where there's low percentage of elk. And so every blue bugle I hear, I try to. I'll work them. I work them up. So I guess. No, I guess it's not both because not. I'm not just looking for a hot one. You used to be able to do that back in the day. You just only look for a hot one, right? Yeah, no, I. I treat every beagle like it's my last one like this. Like. Like I'm gonna be mad at myself if I don't actually see what this rack is on. This, like, it bothers me because I'm like, it could have been a monster. It could have been a. It could have been a rag bull. I'll never know because I failed at calling it in.

Yeah. And.

And so I want to know exactly what that bowl looks like. And I feel like even if it's a rag, it's like, I did what I was supposed to do.

Yeah.

I did everything I needed to do. I called it in. I was able to make a good judgment call. One of the bulls, I called. So I. Again, I have to backtrack some of the things I say. So there is a bowl. There is a bull. I actually told myself, I'm not shooting you this far. I did say that. And that actually pretty bad. That is bad. I. I've said this in the video, too. Like in the hunt. In the hunting video, I say, like, people ask me, what. What size do you go after? The farther you go back, the bigger it has to be. Right. You know, I will shoot. Like, I'm. I'm not a slob or snob. I'm not a snob with elk as I sound like, I will shoot. I'll shoot an okay 6 next to the pickup. Yeah, I will not shoot an okay six, six plus miles back.

Right.

Like, you have to be pretty good. And so I had one bull that I would have probably shot if it wasn't for the fact I already had my Idaho bull dead. I just killed my Idaho bowl. And so it's a week later, and I'm like, you know, I'm. Now I'm just having fun. My elf tag is filled. I'm just. Now I'm just enjoying the woods. So I was actually in Montana, and I was a lot. I was a long way back. It was so 4 miles bushwhacking. And then.

It was a. It was almost like the full. Like, that was like the halfway mark. So I was already at 8. And I already told myself, I'm not going any farther. Like, I'm already beat. I'm running out of food. And I bugle and a bowl bugles on the other side of the drainage.

I didn't hear that, and I couldn't.

I tried to pretend I was. I was like, so this is what I did. Okay. So I did kind of do that.

So. But I said.

I was like, okay, if he's not going to bugle at me again, right then I'll turn around. I was trying to come up with every excuse I could to not chase that bugle. And this was midday bugle and the answers again. And I'm like, gosh dang it. And I'm like, can at least see over there. And I look. So I get up on the ridge and I'm looking, and it's spruce trees. And I'm looking at. This is. This is snow brush. That's not alders, but it's. I mean, it's battle snow brush. It's. It's. It's probably neck. Neck. And I'm like, well, if a bull's bedded, you can't see it from here. I can't. But, you know, beagle again. And I pretty much pinpointed that. That was like the third time. I was like, he is. There's a little tiny bench. It's. I mean, this. This mountain's so steep. Mountain goats live on it, right? Yeah. But there's one little bench. And he biggles. I'm like, you're right there. Like, I'm like, this is too perfect. And, like, I could literally go right there, get right in his bedroom. Bugle and rake. And it's just going to be a slam dunk. And a lot of times, too. So this is the other thing to think about with, because I almost, I know when, when it comes to the cows.

You know, the cows, if they're doing the running, they're least likely to do running midday. If they're all bedded down and they're comfortable, their whole herd's not going to get up and move. Those cows are bedded. And so the bull is forced to fight you.

Yeah.

And I've had interesting. And I've had a lot of, a lot of scenarios where the bulls runs, runs, runs. And I'm not saying you can call on every runner, but I have bulls that I followed all day. And as soon as they finally, the cows find their betting ground for the day. Yeah. Then that bull's stuck there, and I can go in there and kill him. Because I'm like, he's not, he's not gonna move.

Yeah.

What is he gonna do? Run. Run away from his cows and.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, he's got to come up and find every cow and pick her up out of her bed.

I also, I also think that there's a lot of times I've done this where it's like, you're, you're dogging that herd and you're like, oh, he's running. I was like, no, he's just following the cows. He's not gonna, like, he's not gonna leave the cows to go get you. So, like, as soon as she stops, then he's like, then he's more willing to, like, you know, just turn around. Right. You know, and like, you get him worked up that way. I, I, yeah, I, I used to think that, like, oh, he's running. Now I'm like, oh, that cow is just on a, you know, leaving. And I actually, you know, I don't know what your thought on this is, though. I think in my opinion, a lot of times if you pressure him, if you're pressuring him with a bugle, she'll keep going or she'll, like, change where she wants to go, you know, And I just don't know if she doesn't want another bull around or if she's just, you know, that pressure. But as long as you can keep him talking, because you kind of need to figure out where they go. But at the same time, I think if you're trying to be super aggressive, like, I feel like I've done that, and she just keeps going and going and going.

You're just pushing her. You're just pushing the cows. Yeah, well, I've actually have had it. And again, this is just from analyzing. So back when we used to pack with horses and mules, you're stuck with the elk. You're hunting. Yeah. Back there. So you can't be as mobile. And so we. We would actually watch this with the cows where we would. So, like, let's say we call in the first horrible off that herd and the cows. The cows are pretty comfortable with us at that time. And the second time, the cows are not so comfortable. You get a new bull that moves into the drainage. He doesn't have a clue. There was this really nice 6 by 7. He had an in line on one side. And Travis and I split up. We're like, okay. And we're like, we've. We've worked this herd in the past. Trav's like, I'm going to stay on the escape route. I'll be up here. Tom, you go in and try to solo call him in. And so he was up.

Set you up.

He did. And I was. I was okay with it. I was okay with it. I was like, whatever. And I was like, okay, cool. So I went in there. And so I bugle and. And I hear the herd run. Right. And all. You know, this is just a lot of people. This is what you think, Right. It's like, oh, the herd run away. The bull's running away from me too. And then when I met back up with Travis, I'm like, did you get an arrow in that boy? He's like, no. And then we talked later. He's like. He's like. From where I was standing, he's like, I could see the whole herd and what they were doing. He said, you're Bugle Tom. That bull was coming. Fired right in. He was actually coming to you. And his herd started to run away. And so he's almost to you. He looked back at the herd, and he looked back at you. They looked at the herd, and then he looked back at you. And then he said, I can't leave those cows.

Yeah.

And he turned back and went back to his cows. And so. So it's like, okay. So, you know, that's where we started learning about the, you know, the whole cow thing, where it's like, it's not always the bull doing the running. And a lot of it, you can hear the bull. You know, we're. You know, a lot of times we were trying to get the bugle, the bull to beagle to us, and you hear that beagle back. You think that bugles to us? It's not.

Yeah.

Like, a lot of times, you Hear that bugle? And he's like, oh, no. He's just. He's just communicating with this cow. So he's not even. That beagle that he's doing has nothing to do with me. And the other thing, too, is when they're on the move, the bulls are more likely to talk throughout the whole time they're moving. Right. It's to keep everybody. The cows are talking, the bulls talking. They're just keeping the herd together. And then when they get in their bedding grounds, that's when they go quiet. And so if you can't see what's going on, and you have to make judgment calls based on. On what you hear when the calling stops.

Which is typically what I notice. Just like either A, you're on the opposite side of the ridge and they went around the other side, or B, if you're in a good spot and you can hear everything, most likely right where you heard the calling last. That's just where they all lay down for the day.

Like, I was gonna say, like, what's your secret? Because, I mean, that's a hurdle for a lot of people, and I've struggled with that. Like, man, where'd they go? Where'd they go? They shut up. And it's like, to your point, generally speaking, wherever I heard them last is probably where they're at. Maybe a little bit farther, but not a terrible lot. Um, but then I've also learned that, like, if you just wait an hour or two, like, it's like, they'll. They'll. They'll all settle down, and then he'll answer again, you know, I don't know. What's your thought?

Yeah, and sometimes I let him. If I know where he bedded, roughly, I'm like, okay, he's bedded there. Yeah, give him an hour or so. Let him rest up.

He's.

He's been rutting. He might. I mean, he might have been running all night with those cows, and so let him rest a little bit. Give him an hour to lay down and then see if you can work them up again.

Yep.

Usually, like, what's really shocking is how many bowls I've called in midday in hot weather. And kind of going back to that story where I was telling you, I'm like, ah, I don't want to go after that.

Yeah.

Midday it was just like. I'm like, you can't kill him going back, like, not going after him. And I. The whole walk over there, I'm like, this is really stupid, Tom. You know, this is Stupid. This is stupid. Like you are way past beyond your limits. Like you've really done it this time. Like, and, and I, and I, I mean, and same thing, vertical elevation. I mean it's not. I, it wasn't just eight miles flat ground. It was, I climbed some serious elevation to, and got to the ridge tops, right. I worked over there and everything worked picture perfect. The bull came in and he was a nice six. Not a giant. If he was a giant. I'm like, okay, I have to arrow you, you know. But yeah, he was a nice pretty six. He was narrow. He was probably a 270 bull. Maybe 260, 270 bull, which I'll Archie those all day. Not that far back though. I was just like, he was, he came in 10, 10 yards. It was cool with that bull because that the snow brush was so tall. He was actually swimming through it. Like, I never seen a bull have such a hard time moving through that brush. I mean, I was like, I thought it was just me having a hard time moving the other brushes, but he's sitting there sticking his neck out, trying to like, like he's swimming like this.

Push it through it.

Yeah, push it through it.

What was the play? So you move over, you would. I get to 100 yards, 200 yards. Kind of knew where he was. What, what was the sequence.

So I, yeah, I got right, right above where that bench wasn't. To the point where I'm like, they can hear me if I get any closer. I'm like, I don't want to start bumping cows because the bull could be bedded here. And like you said, 70 to 100 yards, you're gonna have cows moving. And he's kind of tucked up in a spot where it's like, dude, like, if you try to run for me, you have to run past me.

Yeah.

Because back behind you is goat cliffs. So you ain't walking past there. So you have to come past me one way or another. But also my logic of, you know, he can't run for me is because like it's midday, really hot. The odds of him trying to pick up his cows to move on is going to be pretty hard. And so I just thought of all the different scenarios. I'm like, I mean, everything points to, you're gonna have to fight me, you know. And the other thing, I was, I was so I was within that hundred yard range. I feel like me. Yeah, no, I was within the 100 yard range and I got just a hair above him, just the Wind. I was like, you have to be very careful with your wind. And I was like, I kept moving in. I'm like, how's my wind over here? Because it was doing something completely different on that south side, on the south slope. And so I would move in on that north slope, feel that wind. I'm like, what's that wind doing? And then I back out. So I finally tested. I'm like, okay. Actually, the wind on the north slope's pretty good. I'm good. It's way different than what I thought it was going to do. So then I moved in there, got right above. And there was right about. Right where that. There's a section in that snow brush where it turns to rock, like a rock knob. Like, my only chance of killing that bull is to pull them off that. You know, maybe pull them off there. But maybe. Maybe I might get a frontal, you know, through that. Through that snow brush. And that snow brush goes different lengths, right? So sometimes it's ankle deep, and sometimes. And so you just never know what that snow brush typically. I noticed on the north slopes, it grows a lot taller. And when the bull came in, I was. All I saw was the bottom of his chin. I'm like, oh, no, this is going to be tougher. And I thought, like I said, he was swimming. But then when he got started getting to that rock ledge I was telling you about, when I. When I. When I bugled, I challenged him and started to rake. Oh, sorry. So I'll go back to that. So I bugled. He screamed. I'm like, okay. I started raking. When I hear him raking again, I'm like, okay. He's telling me we're going to fight. Like, that's a good sign when they rake again. And it took a. He actually took him a while. Like, it didn't happen immediately. He didn't just fire right in, but I had to work him up, right. So he just. He'd bugle, he'd rake. And he wasn't really answering every bugle. And so a lot of times I wasn't even be going back. Instead, I just kept raking. I'm just like, he can hear. I know with how that area echoes. I can hear my raking on the other side.

Yeah.

Where he's at. So I know he's hearing my raking. So I'm just going to keep raking. And he'd be going. He'd keep breaking. I'm like, it got to a point. I'm like, when is this bull going to commit I can only keep the wind so long, you know, like, the wind's cooperating, but it do a little shift on and off and do, like, a. It shift too. I'm like, oh, that's not good. Then shift away. I'm like, okay. Then it's holding. I'm like, okay, we're good. Like, come on. Come in, come in. And finally I hear crash, crash, crash. I'm like, okay, he's on. He's on the move. He's coming in. And. And then I saw him, and I'm like. At first glance, I'm like, oh, he's little because he. He was looking toward me. He has such a tight rack. But then he turned. I'm like, hey, not bad. And then. But as he got closer and closer, I started talking myself out of it. I'm like, you're an okay bull.

But.

We'Re a long ways from home.

We're. We're a long ways from home. So I let him get.

He.

He was probably under. Well, I say under. He was right about 10 yards.

Oh, wow.

By the time he decided to turn around.

So when. When he. You heard him coming, did you stop everything or you keep breaking?

I kept breaking. I was kind of, like, behind at a spruce tree. And honestly, the only way I was tucked in, there was kind of a little ledge within the rocks I was hiding in, and I was just tickling it behind me with. They're like, tickling a branch with the rocks. My biggest problem is. Fine, okay. This is my biggest obstacle, finding a stick. I'm like, oh, time the rig. Oh, shoot. Where's the stick? Yeah, you know. Oh, this. This is my only good stick. And it broke. Oh, shoot.

Yeah, Instantly.

It's like, as soon as you start raking, you snap it and you have to go find a new one.

You're like, ah, I've actually abused my foot, too. I'll, like, rub my foot on the rocks or whatever, doing whatever you can. I use my bugle a lot.

Yep. And, yeah, if you use the end of the bugle, that doesn't sound bad. Like, the side of the bugle sounds like it too. But if you use. If you just rub. If you get, like. It depends on the bark. If you use the end of the bugle, it can. It sounds like a rub.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, and. And we don't. I didn't have the greatest spruce tree, so I had to. I was kind of raking on some old stuff there, you know?

Yeah.

And. Yeah, no, he came in, and he came in quartered toward. But there was a couple times where he'd come in and then he'd come in broadside on like just wall of brush.

Yeah.

And. But then by the time he came in, I couldn't have given him. I. The only shot I had. It was a front quartered. And I've taken that shot before and it's lethal. But I'm like, yeah, we're not going to do that today. Yeah, we're not going to do that today. And I was so glad because by the time I. I was leaving, I was like, it took me probably an hour to get to where I first heard him bugling. You know that? I'm like, that took me an hour. And I'm like. And I still have eight more miles to go to get off this stupid mountain. And I'm like, I did. This is one of those days. I'm like, I did not prepare. And then when you're on ridge tops, hunting ridge tops, you're not. You don't have the greatest access for water. You know, the holes you can find springs and stuff. But there was no water up there. I'm like, I was. And I, I had, I packed a lot of water, but I was down to my last little bit. Last little bit. I'm like, like, I don't want to drop down to get a spring. I'm like, I'm getting off this mountain dehydrated. But yeah, good times. But, but, but I mean, he worked out. Yeah, it worked out. And it was just like. That one was like one of those. It just. It was like a pick. Picture perfect scenario where I'm like, okay, this bull's callable. And, and. But you also have to consider like what I was going back to. That too were a few things that I learned or that you can learn about a hunt. Like that is the bull wants to work himself up first. And if there is water nearby, sometimes they want. They'll leave. And you think they're running. This actually happened to me and Trav where we had a bull leave us. But he was going through the wallow to wallow.

The beagles are getting away. Like, oh no, we have to move in. All of a sudden we hear the splash, splash, splash. And then he comes back, he's bugle. And then he's coming in. But. So he's just gotta work himself up. He's got to cool himself down. Yeah, it's just hot, 97 degree weather. I mean, he's gotta cool himself off somehow. Yeah.

That's interesting. That's Funny.

Yeah, dude.

Well, that's super cool. Well, if people want to check it out. Where's the YouTube video from this year? Stuck in the rut.

Yeah. Stuck in the rut.

Yeah. So it's the newest one. I think it's episode 100 and I need. It's tough to.

It's tough to keep things organized with like season one episode this. So we've just. We've always just made it basic and it's stuck on rut 212. Yeah. Yeah. And so. So stuck in about 212. If you go to Stuck in our channel, you'll find it. Yeah. One on one. Like I said, that's kind of the story we got. And yeah, solo hunt. It's. It's challenging, but it's definitely rewarding. And I'd say most of our. Well, Travis and Trevor both have also are really good at it too. And we've all just picked it up. You don't always need a collar. You really don't. Obviously it's great when you have a color. But here's the downside with the collar.

Sometimes there's that bubble, right, that bubble and calling an elk and you want to get in that bubble. Well, I've had it where the bulls feeling like we're a threat. So Travis goes back to. To call and all of a sudden the bull doesn't feel like we're a threat anymore and he continues to run.

Yeah, that's true.

And so.

And it's hard to maneuver. It's like, let's just move up closer, you know, like. Yeah, it's so hard to choose that battlefield and like, expect that to be the last one, you know, so, so many times it's like you got to move a little bit or, you know, go over here or do this. And like, yeah, it's. The communication is really tough. I definitely call way more bull solo than. Than with calling.

But and the other. And the other thing too is just like, like most like, you know, I painted. I've. I've taught or I've talked about some of the most picture perfect scenarios. But like you said a lot of times when you're working on a her bowl. Sorry, I'm getting really excited talking about this. Well, it's because it's just fresh in my mind. We just got done with archery elk season, so it's still in my head. But when you're buling these elk, like sometimes it's multiple scenarios. Right. Or you're setting up multiple times. Okay. Failed setup. Failed setup. And finally the Bull is ready to come in.

Yeah.

He's like, okay, obviously you're not getting off my tail.

Yeah, yeah.

It's time to come in.

You got to pressure him a little bit before he wants to turn. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a huge piece of it too. It's just like sticking with it. Sticking with it, sticking with it.

Sticking with it the whole time and staying on them. But again, back to reading them, you know, like we were saying, I think you're better off being more aggressive than not. Obviously. I feel like, you know, you see the people that are really aggressive hunters, you're going to kill more. Yeah. But if you can read the scenario like you're saying earlier, where it's just like, okay, I'm just pushing these cows. Just back off. Just hear them, like, stay in. In ear distance. Sure. They bed down. And another factor that people just think that the hunt's over after the. After first light. Right. That they hunt first light. They had bulls, Beagle, they ran. They're like, oh, it got quiet. It's time to go back to camp. It's time to talk about our fun that we had for the day. We'll try again in the evening. It's like, no stick on that bowl all day. Pack enough food, pack enough water. You got your knife, you got a flashlight. Don't be afraid to walk out in the dark.

Yeah.

I mean, I know it sounds like common knowledge, but it's. It's not. But just stick it out. And I've had bulls that I've called. Well, one of another member. Bull. Bull. I think it was probably my third biggest bull that I killed. Well, probably. Yeah. Around there.

We worked on him for eight hours till we called him and killed.

That's crazy.

Eight hours. But have I always killed elk calling too? No, I mean, my, my second biggest elk that I killed was no calling at all. And just. Just sitting on his escape route. I was sitting on his escape route.

Yeah. And the other thing, like, just like to your point of sticking on him, like, so many times people think elk shut up at 8:30 or 9:00 clock and it's like, yeah, he shut up, but maybe an hour later he might rip one off. Or, you know, like, if you got. If he's got hot cows, like, almost guarantee he's gonna bugle sometime today. And to your point, like, yeah, he may go shut up and lay down for a little bit. He's been up all night, but he's not gonna stay laid down all day.

Yeah, just let him rest A little bit.

Yeah.

I said that. That one like that. That one ball obviously wasn't one that I'd say as a shooter, but I was like, I read the situation. I could have kept pushing him and just kept going down the drainage, and I could have spent all morning chasing him.

Yeah.

I'm like, yeah, let him bed down. Let's check the trail camera. Let's. Let's take a little break. I'm like, I'm looking on those benches. I'm like, I've seen a bed down there before. I'm pretty sure that's where they're going. It's a hot day, and those benches are nice and cool.

Yeah.

And it was just. Again, it was just like one of those scenarios where I'm like, yeah, that's what I thought it was. But again, I'm trying to sound like I know everything. I think. I think we all like this season. It doesn't matter how many elk hunting seasons that we have or what I have. It's like you learn something new every season. You're like, okay, yeah, I'm always working on myself. I'm always working on my techniques. And I feel like if you're at that point where you think you know everything.

That'S when you start. You. You start humble. Yeah. You start getting humbled. You. The success stops immediately.

Yeah.

Always. Always. Like, Travis, after every failed setup, he says, like, instead of saying, oh, that was fun. Let's go to the next one. He just says, okay, what could we have done different? That's the first thing he says. And so we'll sit there and we'll. We'll talk about sometimes, like, there's some scenarios. I'm like, trav, honestly, I don't know if we could have done anything different there. I mean, yeah, we can't beat a bull's nose. He winted us.

Yeah.

The wind switched last minute. We couldn't have predicted that. You know, you got. If you get a little. If you get on a cloudy day. Yeah, I mean, you can go. I mean, I always hunt based on the thermals. You know, sun rises, wind blows up, you know, so there's all that. That you can. You can pay attention to. But you get a cloudy day that's on and off, and the temperature is actively changing. You're going to get some win. Yeah.

Crazy. And man, elk just like this, live in those swirl pockets.

I have theories that there's a reason why they're like, they like to smell. Oh, yeah.

I think it's. Yeah, 100. It's the same reason trout sit in the back, Eddie. Like you know the elk like to go bed in a swirl pocket because like they 360 view, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well appreciate it. Dude.

Awesome.

Awesome. Congrats you guys. Crush it. Go check out YouTube also you guys have an elk hunting course if you get anybody who wants to take. Needs some more knowledge in our life. I'm a huge fan. Yeah. Spend the money on your self improvement. So. And I. I actually kind of secretly. I'm gonna probably take your whitetail course because a little more interested in the. In the whitetail knowledge. But you guys have a ton of courses I guess give us like the 30000 foot view on. On the course stuff. Where to find that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can find that. It's called on a 360 sportsman. I really appreciate them because you know, for me I'm not a tech guy and so I've been running the mule deer wolf masterclass for. For actually five years now. And the biggest. It's been that long now has it? Yeah. And yeah, it's been. I couldn't believe it. And but it was just like dealing with the tech issues and customer support or you know, it's customer service and I'm. And it's like man, it's just like I almost needed to hire somebody for that. And so360Sportsman, they offered to take it over and to help me and. And I get a percentage. But it's been great with that. We've been able to build on that. And so now we're. We don't just have the elk or we don't just have the meal. Their master class, the wolf master class. But the elk master class, me and Travis teamed up on that one. So we got both of us together on that one. And all our knowledge and hunting. I mean we've hunted all this. We've hunted pretty much all the states in the west.

That's crazy.

And so. And. And we use these, you know, use these techniques to good work. And then recently the whitetail one that you're talking about.

Yeah.

I had to get. I have a really good friend. I had to get him involved because I'm like I've killed some big whitetails, but this guy is the whitetail wizard. I know it. He's got his reputation, no joke.

It.

He has this reputation in other cities and he doesn't even have a social media platform. So that's just how good he is with whitetails. And so I'm like, I'm like, Mark, we have to do a whitetail master class together. And he's like, let's do it. So he was so fun working with him. And I mean, every time I talk to that guy, I'm just like, boom. Like, oh, yeah. I just learned so much from him. Yeah.

Well, awesome. Yeah, we'll put a link in the show notes. But, dude, thanks for jumping on. Congrats on another successful season. And yeah, keep out. Keep putting out good content, man.

Hey, thank you so much, Cody.

All right, have a good one.

Yeah.

Alrighty, guys, thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes. It's 100 free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website, www.elkhunt201.com.