Sheep Stories: How Wyoming is Putting and Keeping Sheep on the Mountain with Katie Cheesbrough

Foreign.

To the Hunt West Podcast, here's your host, Jaden Bales. What's up, everybody?

Welcome to another episode of the Hunt West Podcast. This is your host, Jaden Bales. And obviously, if you clicked on this, you know that this is the first of a multiple series of podcasts all about sheep, wild sheep, specifically bighorn sheep and their conservation. And I wanted to give you all a little bit of an intro of today how we ended up here. First of all, if you've known me for any amount of time, you know that conservation is something I'm really excited about. I'm really passionate about it. I spent some time growing up going to Ducks Unlimited banquets, and then I rolled into backcountry hunters and angler stuff. And then when I got to Wyoming, I became a volunteer for Wyoming Wildlife Federation, and then they ended up hiring me when a job came open. So I worked for them for five years and have been deeply involved in the conservation world.

I think it's really important, especially as.

People who are deeply involved in hunting across the west, you know, with these species that need a lot of conservation and people thinking about the future here, that you are informed and that you know about the resources that we're wanting to hunt and chase, etc. Now, I know many of us who are listening either may have one sheep hunt in their lifetime, you may have zero sheep hunts in your lifetime. But to me, I'm really passionate about the fact that even species that you don't get a hunt need some love on the conservation front. I mean, honestly, this is one of the reasons why I push so strongly for opportunities for all species when we can afford it. Because when we're out hunting and we're out chasing these critters, we're boots on the ground. We see the problems that occur with the landscape in the West. You know, whether it's like habitat problems or. Or encroachment from development or a whole slew of other things that impact the game species that we like to chase. Right? And as people who like you, who are listening and like me, who are really involved in this stuff, who want to make sure that we have these awesome wildlife populations and places to chase them for a long, long time into the future. So after I left at the. The Wyoming Wildlife Federation, staff still in great terms with those folks, and they're an excellent organization, but I got approached to be part of the Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation's board. They're a chapter of the Greater, you know, Wild Sheep foundation that most of us know and love. That work across the US and, and Canada and Mexico and also overseas. But essentially, the Wyoming Wild Sheep foundation obviously just focuses within the cowboy state. And you'll hear today's guest, Katie Cheeseborough, talk about some of the important issues that face Wyoming, some things that they're working on and what kind of the overall ethos is. You know, when you're only giving out 100 tags or so a year, the funding that is generated just from license sales is not enough to cover the conservation of a species. So that's where groups like the Wyoming Wild Sheep foundation step in to help cover the gap, make sure we have sheep to chase as hunters, but then also just conserve the species just into the. Into perpetuity, if we can. Right. So today we're, we're launching this series. I'm really passionate about this because even though not many of us will ever get to hunt a ram, I was lucky enough to receive a utag a couple years ago. So I've had technically a sheep hunting experience. They're just awesome animals. And their conservation also is kind of like the tip of the spear for all the other things that are falling underneath it. When you got healthy enough landscapes for sheep, y' all got healthy enough landscapes for good mule deer populations, you've got intact habitats and landscapes, and really, it's just like, really good for the whole ecosystem and for those of us who like to roam around on these wild places where sheep call home. So I hope that you enjoyed this podcast series. I recorded it at the Wyoming Wild Sheep Expo, and all these podcasts are really kind of unique in their own way. They give you a little bit of a glimpse into different aspects of sheep and sheep hunting. Today's guest is, like I said, Katie Cheeseborough. She's the executive director, and we're going to get into the nuts and bolts of sheep conservation. It's going to be very conservation heavy. The next I have on Kevin Hurley. He works with the National Wild Sheep foundation and the national organization has a lot of interesting things going on. But I gotta admit, we didn't really talk a whole lot about that with Kevin because he's got a whole slew of great stories of his own from his, like, storied career in, in wildlife and conservation and being a biologist and being on the ground with research. So that's a good podcast that you're going to want to make sure you listen to. Then we roll into a podcast with an outfitter in Wyoming named Jimmy Owens. He's a younger guy, but he is a dang good Sheep hunter. There's very few people, and we kind of talk about this throughout. Like, if you haven't been, you know, hunting sheep since the 60s or 70s or 80s, there's a good chance that the only other folks who really know how to hunt sheep are going to be the guides and outfitters who are taking guys who draw tags every year. Jimmy's one of those guys, and he's got some real, no nonsense responses to just, like, different questions about, you know, the logistics of sheep hunting, what people need to be prepared for, and what it's like as a. As a guiding outfitter for sheep. And then we finish it up with another. What I call, you know, I kindly call another old timer in Jim Collins. Jim has been involved in sheep and sheep conservation, and funny enough, I actually guide on his old ranch that was bought out. And, um, so we had a bunch of fun stories to talk about about the history of that place. And we also just dive into sheep conservation and where things are going and how people can get involved.

For many of us, you know, like.

Looking at $100,000 or $75,000 sheep tag somewhere is probably out of reach. But I want to just encourage people, if you're putting in for raffles, if you're putting in for the draws and you're being smart about the opportunities, you. If you stick with it, you'll end up with one. I'd say I'm probably proof, and obviously I got lucky. But I wanted to lend a word of encouragement for those who are on the sidelines and thinking about getting into this stuff. And on the other side of that coin, even if you never get an opportunity to hunt sheep, they're awesome animals. They. They live in some incredibly wild places that we want to keep that way, and they're worthwhile keeping. Keeping around whether or not we get a chance to chase them. So I hope that you appreciate this whole podcast series diving into a topic that we don't normally talk about in wild sheep, specifically bighorn sheep in Wyoming and across the West. So please feel free to reach out to me, let me know what you think of this series, and I hope you enjoy this episode, the first of the sheep stories with Katie Cheeseborough of the Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation. Enjoy.

We're gonna launch into this thing. Okay, cool.

So we're here at the Wyoming Wild Sheep Expo for the Hunt west podcast.

We're doing a live sheep stories podcast series.

And today's first guest is Ms. Katie Cheeseborough.

Are you the executive director?

Is that the official title?

I am. That is my official title. It sounds really fancy.

Well, earlier today, I was officially brought on as a board member.

And first of all, I wanted to thank you for bringing me into this whole thing.

We've worked together for, like, five or six years, you know, when I was volunteering with WWF and then when I.

Was working with Wyoming Wildlife Federation. So I've known you for quite a.

While, but I also realized, like, I.

Don'T really know your background super well.

Yeah.

So how'd you end up here?

So how I ended up here, you know, that's one of those things, like, how far back do you want me to go? But essentially, I've been interested in wildlife since my family moved to Wyoming when I was nine. No, they came from New Jersey, and we rolled out west, and this place just took me by storm, like, everything about Wyoming. And I knew from the minute, you know, my first science class in fourth grade, I was like, yep, I want to do things about the outdoors. I want to do things with wildlife. And it just grew from there. So I chose my crew calf pretty early. But I would say I really got interested from a. From a childhood perspective when I went to Teton Science School as a kid in one of the schools. Yeah. And so that's something. I don't know if they still do it, but school groups used to go do that. And I got to be the women in science for a great year, and it really spurred my interest on. I got my degree from Saint Owls College of Minnesota in biology. I have a degree. I have a bachelor's of arts in biology, if you've ever heard of something like that.

I didn't know that was possible.

Me either.

You just didn't want to take some of the science and math or something.

Or, like, because it's. It's strange. But I went on to get my master's at University of Wyoming, and I got to work with some great people doing studies on Wyoming ground squirrels and how they hibernate and how they keep their muscle mass and stuff like that. But that led to work with polar bears. That was really cool and really fun.

But that wasn't in Wyoming.

Where.

No, that was not in Wyoming. It was in Alaska, and it wasn't my project. I was a research assistant working at the university, and I was just supposed to process lab samples that they sent me from Alaska. And I get a phone call one night from my supervisor. He's like, katie, how fast can you get up to Alaska? And I was like, as fast as you meet.

Wow.

Okay. So what part Of Alaska. Was that out of.

Yeah. So based out of Dead Horse Alaska on the north slope.

Wow.

It's a wild and weird place.

Okay. I would imagine. So what'd you do up there? Like, they were like, hey, we need.

Our research assistant or whatever up here.

To like, collect samples or like mess with, play with bears. Like what?

I mean, a little bit of all of that. So the, the research project that was going on was they were looking at how polar bears are handling as the sea ice melts out. There are certain bears that follow the ice out and theirs are choosing to stay on land. And so they're kind of looking at the difference between those two survival strategies and body condition and things like that. So it kind of had to do with this idea of protein conservation while dusting. So kind of like hydration physiology.

Okay.

Yeah.

So what was the result of that? Like, are bears. Are the bears adapting to different changes or like, what's up?

And I'm going to tell you anecdotal.

And like, that was a long time ago, right.

I'll tell you some anecdotal things we saw. You know, we would collect fecal samples from these bears and there would be like grass in. In their PCs, which is totally unusual because a polar bear is a complete, complete carnivore. Like, that's all they do.

Oh, so they're not like a BlackBerry grizzly bear when they're eating.

Total carnivorous and really specialized on specific seals. And so when that ice sheet is melting out and not is melting out past the continental shelf where all the productivity is, those seals aren't there, the food's not there. So they're also fasting on the ice or they're just not where they're ideal spout food source nests. So that was really interesting. And I did get to. I not only worked in the lab, I got to go like, check out bears. Bears. It was really fun.

That's pretty sweet.

So I went from my ground squirrel project where I trapped squirrels off of the golf course in Laramie. Like total Carl Spagler caddyshack type feel, trapping squirrels to getting to go to Alaska and work like pull it bears.

So I feel like you've ended up at somewhere in between squirrel and polar bear. Now that you're working with sheep, how'd you get into doing cheap stuff?

Yeah, well, my work experience has been really diverse as well. So I did a lot of seasonal work by the forest service from range, being a range tech looking at doing rangeland transects botany tech. I've Been a trails tech and find and then I've also done been a technician for a martin capture study up like the Sierra Nemata's. But eventually I was like, I kind of, I can't be a technician. NDC's no work my entire life. So I was a term wildlife biologist with the U.S. forest Service for a few years out of Douglas, Wyoming and worked on the grassland at Larne. And then after that I moved on to the Miami and Game and Fish. I was a habitat biologist with them for about seven years.

Where were you a habitat biologist at in?

Well, I lived in encampment Wyoming but technically it was Saratoga and Beggs were my areas.

Okay, were there any sheep out there?

Yes, there are two sheep herds on either side of the Platte Valley. There's the Douglas Creek herd on the west slope of the Snowys and then there's the encampment river herd on the east slope of the Sierra Madres.

Okay, so when you were like a habitat biologist then obviously you were starting to think about sheep and what sheep need at a consistent level. Like you were doing it all the time.

Yeah, definitely. At the time the department was super focused on Yielder and we had one of the Yielder initiative herds. But this is really cool. The encampment school, they have a science teacher there who's really making sure his kids get out. And the biologists there were helping him to like look at these sheep. So they do disease surveillance every few years on these sheep populations. So it was an opportunity for those kids to get out and capture sheets, see what the sampling methods look like. We'll look at the colony. So I got to partake a lot of that and seek kids spread excited about sheep conservation. It was really fun. So that really. And they live in such beautiful country. Like if you're in chic country, you're somewhere that not a lot of people get to see or go to very often. So that, that was awesome.

That's true.

And one of the things like I think I have like a lot of thoughts and like feelings about is like a lot of people might think of sheep as like, you know, like this unattainable species to hunt or whatever. But just kind of to your point, talking about mule deer, it's like, you know, what's good for sheep is definitely going to be good for mule deer. What's good for them is going to be good for other species on landscape. And it's like kind of a cascading effect. Absolutely. Is that kind of what you're seeing down in Bags too.

Absolutely. You know, there's some different habitat types, but there's definitely habitat crossover. And certainly, you know, we see as far as habitat goes in some of these areas, we're kind of out of our natural fire regime. And the conifer encroachment that we're seeing in these habitats and the effects that they're having on mule deer, elk, and especially the brown sheep. So that was something we were pretty focused on and could do for both species. That was really helpful as well as cheatgrass mitigation. Yeah, it was a big one too.

There's a ton of. Yeah, there's a ton of overlap. It feels like, um. So what year did you start with wild sheep?

I started in 2020. So a terrifying moment to switch jobs.

Yeah, no kidding. But also kind of like, you know, speaking to that localized area where you were at 2020 was the year of the Mullen fire too, right?

That is correct.

So as you were getting into, you know, like, your role, were there projects or like, big concerns back then that you were just like. That was the focus that might be different than now.

Yeah. What was really cool about the Mullen fire and the sheath in the Douglas Creek fer unit, they had collars on them. And so we had data about their beagles prior to the fire. And then when it burned, we got to see how they decided to use the new habitat. And it's so cool to see that. And it also really informed habitat project. Right. So they cleared out some of the conifer, which, as you know, sheep like a line of sight for predators. They like escape terrain. So if you got a bunch of trees, they're not going to tend to want to be there. And so it was really cool to see them move into new habitats that they hadn't used before, but also monitor that habitat and make sure that we're taking care of cheatgrass concerns post fire and things like that.

So since you were like paid attention to all the caller data and stuff like that year, how many sheep burnt up? Like, did you. Did you lose any. Did you lose any, like, in the buyer?

I've never actually asked that question, but my understanding is that no sheep burned up because they are mobile. And I mean, we can all agree that a lot of things kill sheep, but they're mobile and they're. They were able to escape and move. And I. As far as I know, nobody has found a burnup sheep crocus.

So that's pretty sweet. Yeah, it's one of those things like, God, there's like a. There's like a saying. It's like sheep are born looking for a way to die.

Yes.

But fire, like, I mean, this is kind of like something that is really fun that we talked about again today at the member meeting. But like, fire's not probably one of them.

It doesn't seem like it's so hard, but maybe. Yeah.

Don't want to jinx it, I guess.

Just tell you though, I had a deer tag in the Mullen fire scar and I found a set of burnt up news stores.

Oh, did you? Really?

Cool. Yeah.

That's sweet. I know that. Yeah. But it's really cool. So like, that's kind of just like painting a picture of like one of the things that sheep need is like that fire regime. And how does like Wild Sheep foundation, like, play in a part of that?

Yeah. So one thing that our foundation is kind of built on, you know, our mission is to build, to put and keep wild sheep on the mountain. And wild sheep in Wyoming are Rocky Mountain big corn sheep. And one of the ways that we work with the department. So when you look at sheep tags and sheet tag revenue, the department, there's about a $500,000 plus deficit from what the department brings in in terms of funding for sheet management and what sheet management actual costs. And so that's kind of our mission as a foundation is to help bridge that deficit. So we bring in money, we do lots of fundraising in order to put money on the ground for big crawling sheep projects, whether it's habitat projects like you kind of been talking about, or population management projects such as paying for population estimate glytes or disease research, nutrition and genetics research. We do a lot of cheap ass mitigation work. But we also Boulder bushfroid, fire and conifer removals and corn chic habitat. So we work closely with the bean and fish and obviously a lot the corn sheet habitat is on federal public land, which is awesome. So we were with our federal core service and BLM purposes.

No, that's huge. But then we were also talking about like some private land projects too. Like it's both, right? It takes both. I think a lot of times we just get into this idea that conservation is only public land and we like forget that other piece. Right.

And that's really important to us and something I'm learning more and more about as a habitat biologist for the Wyoming Game and Fish Department. But Wyoming Game and Fish doesn't own that many lands. We have our wildlife habitat management areas, but.

But they're very small. They're prepared.

So we are working with private landowners quite a bit. And we know, I think there's some a misconception when it comes to big farm sheep and domestic sheep producers and cattle producers that we're at odds. But my ethos is that working lands are extremely important to wildlife. Having these big contiguous ranches or ranches that are not being developed into urban areas is so crucial to wildlife and to bingworm sheep. So yeah, we are very interested in working with our private landowner partners and eager to do so whenever we get the charts.

Yeah, it's one of the things I think people, when you think of Wyoming and bighorns, you usually think of like the mountains, the big bad country, etc. But gosh, there's a lot of low stuff like places where the private public does interact. And I think that oftentimes that's a misconception is that they're all on the top of the mountain and it's like.

That'S just not the case.

Yeah, it's really interesting because. So I'm talking about Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep. There used to be two subspecies in Wyoming. It's the Audubon sheep now that's been extirpated there.

How long ago was that extirpated?

I want to say 1907.

Oh, so they were around European contact?

Yes, yes. Okay. They no longer exist. And we know from the Game and Fish's work to restore sheep to their native range that in areas like Devil's Canyon in the Bighorns that there are certain sheep that do better at lower elevations. There was attempts to take sheep from the Whiskey Mountain, which are a high elevation migratory sheep curtain, and take them to someplace like the Sweetwater Rocks back in the 40s or 60s or something like that. And it failed. They persisted for a while, but eventually they blipped out. And it was because of phenology, it didn't match the phenology of the landscape.

And by phenology you mean like the time frame of when they're having babies.

When they're amazing and the brass is green. And yeah, it didn't match up and so it wasn't a good fit. So there's been really cool work that's been done to kind of get species from the Montana breaks and different areas. And those are the sheep that make up like the Devil's Canyon herd and that we use to. We would use to translocate for lower elevation. So like central Wyoming that has these like low elevation rock nubs across central Wyoming. Those are the sheep.

But Timo there so Is that like low elevation stuff where they figured like the Audubon sheep used to be? Is that the difference? Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, that makes sense. And just in that vein, you're talking a lot about like translocating and moving sheep. And that's obviously like a huge piece of probably like wilding wild sheep's history, but also currently what you're working on, right?

Yeah. You know, that's again, our mission is to put in keep wild sheep on the mountain. So we always love to see sheep back in their native range. We're trying to, you know, pre European settlement, there was a lot more sheep on the landscape. And then by the 1960s, it was really decimated. But a lot of work has been done through our wildlife agencies to restore some of those populations, and they've done a pretty good job. We're nowhere near where we once were. So anytime there's an appropriate way to put sheep back in their native range, that's not going to create more disease issues or a total political store. But we were interested in that.

Yeah, that makes sense. And it. But it's all kind of like guided by like his master sheep plan that a bunch of people put together, right?

Yeah. So Wyoming's really unique. We have what we lovingly call the Wyoming clan. It has a very long title. It's like the statewide domestic bighorn sheet Interaction Working group Final recommendation or something like that. That's the actual name of the plant. We call it the Wyoming.

The Wyoming plant.

Yeah. But in the early 2000s, there was probably actually the late 1990s, there was a lot of conflict between wild sheep advocates and conservationists and, sorry, wool growers, so domestic sheep boosters. And it's, it's an issue of disease. And, you know, we have these amazing domestic sheep allotments in northwest Wyoming. And then we also have these core native bighorn sheep herds. And we were just at odds, like at each other's throats. And some folks had the foresight to be like, this isn't working. Us just yelling at each other and fighting. We're not getting anything done. So they got together and made this domestic big corn sheep, you know, interaction working group. And to my knowledge, the stories I heard is like, man, that was really. You take two stakeholders that are really at odds with each other and force them to work together. And they did. And they came up with this plan. And in 2015. So in. In 2004, that plan was finalized, and then 2015, it got codified into. So basically, that is our. We are mandated to meet with this interaction working group once a year and discuss domestic and wild sheep issues. And if there's. You have management areas. So like cooperative review areas like what we see in the Sweetwater Rocks where if there's. We want to reintroduce sheep, we have to work through it as a group. And I think, I think that's good business rather than fighting teeth and nail and, and sure, sometimes we disagree. Sure, we have lively disagreements, but I think we're starting to understand one another a little more. So yeah, yeah, it's been fun to work through that and see the evolution of that.

That makes sense. So where are there. What do you know, off top of your head? Which places in Wyoming could still use sheep? And then like, obviously we're getting to like the big project right now which is sweeping water rocks. But are there other, like, are there multiple places where there could be sheep but there's not?

Yeah, there's, you know, there's definitely native historic range for big corn sheep where they aren't currently. Sweetwater Rocks being one of them. And the reason that that's like where we're focused on now is because there's a very low risk of contact with other domestic sheep. Naturally. Our, our bighorn sheep in La Far Seminos, which is a transplant and is a trans reintroduced her. They're doing really well.

Well.

And they're trying to push out their, their branch to the Pedro or some to help the Fugos. But that's tough because we have domestic sheep allotments just to the north. Now whether that's a factor or not, that's something we need to like actually look at and analyze. So that's another area of the feed droves. And then, you know, Fremont Canyon around Hasper, um, was known to have sheets and, and places like that. So there, there are several areas around the state that there's potential, but we have to be very careful and, and have conversations with our domestic sheep producers about it before we do that.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But it's one of those things where like I was lucky enough, I got a U sheep tag. So I, I have had a sheep hun under my belt technically. But I look at like, yeah, I feel really lucky, but I look at like the preference point system in Wyoming. But you can also look at the bonus points in like Colorado or Montana or whatever. And just like the mathematics of it don't make sense for me to get a ram tag in my lifetime. And I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me. But yeah, you're in the same boat of me. But on the other side of that coin is like, if we have more sheep and more sheep opportunity, that really helps that situation, right?

It does. And I don't know. I know. Jaden, when you were doing your work with the Federation, you were very involved with the Governor's task force on wildlife. And this was a big topic of preference point and preference point. And there was all these suggestions of how to fix the problem, and they all came down to like, statistical minutiae. But like, if you still did the math, it changed your. My odds by like 0.001%.

Yeah, exactly.

And the only appreciable thing that could change my or your odds are to put more sheep out there and have lime hunting tags available.

Yep.

So that is why I just like consistently come back to like being passionate about putting and keeping more of them on the mountain because, like, that is really where as a hunter, like, it comes down to the rubber me road, where you can have some opportunity. Okay. And we've kind of set the stage in a long roundabout way of like talking about the Sweetwater Rocks initiative. Give us an overview of that whole, that whole thing.

This is like something that's been going on. This is one of those issues that has gone on since, you know, 1907. Right. You had Audubon sheet there. They were extirpated due to European settlement, but it was over hunting disease from domestic sheep or otherwise. But they basically blipped out. There was an effort in the 40s to reintroduce bighorn sheep there. At the time, they're like, hey, this is a low elevation spot. Let's put desert big corn here. Oh, really surprising to no one.

That didn't work in Wyoming.

Yeah.

Okay.

I guess it was worth the try.

Valiant effort.

So then there was another effort, I believe in the 70s. And I, I might have these dates wrong. Don't, don't quote me. But, but that. There's another effort and I, I could have mentioned it. Where they pulled sheep from the Whiskey Mountain herd and populated. And like I said, they, they persisted for a little while, but they also slowly. Did not. Did not. They weren't. The herd wasn't sustainable. And again, that was because that was a high elevation migratory herd. And we're, we're needing something that can deal with the phenology, the, the greening of the grass, the climate at a lower elevation. Yeah. So that's where we are now. There's been a couple different proposals on the table through to the 90s to reintroduce sheep. But this is a political, a very political thing and rightfully so. We're at a point where there's not a huge issue with domestic sheep. The risk of contact is really low there and that's why we're focusing on this. But, but we have cattle producers in the area who are concerned about federal policy and litigious green groups who don't love grazing, that they would use bighorn sheep to reduce their grazing rights or their aums. And there are examples of that in other states. But keep in mind those other states don't have the Wyoming clan. So, so we are trying to be understanding of our landowner friends in the area and we're trying to work with them and understand their concerns. So we, we tried to find them assurances in different ways. We've gone as far as creating state legislation that protects those producers from that kind of thing. But you know, their, their concern still is from the federal level. So we are actively working with the landowners and the wool growers and the stock growers and Farm Bureau to try and find the right fit of protections for those producers.

I think it's really funny the dichotomy of like we, we can kind of like lump landowners together, but like there's a really involved member of Wyoming Wild Sheep who was a landowner in that area. Like, I mean, it's very much like, I don't, I hate, like, like we always just kind of lump them all together. Like they all have the same mindset and it's like not the case for sure.

We have learned from them and, and I hadn't heard this, you know, beeping at this for a couple years now and I finally, you know, I think we're finally hearing each other to go like, we don't. We, we'd be happy to see bighorn sheep gear. We would, I would love to sit on my horse and drink a cup of coffee and see a big horn sheep come down. But has to be done right and in a way that it doesn't, you know, their, their livelihoods aren't. And I completely understand that for sure.

So just across the highway and, and I've spent some time in the rocks as well. But like just across the highway is where I spend a lot of time guiding and it's in the Ferris in the Seminoles and gosh, it's so cool. Like I will, you know, that's a sheep reintroduction effort that, um, I would have to assume Wyoming wild sheep made happen 20 years ago maybe.

Yeah, So I, I believe the first introduction effort must say the 70s, but I keep saying we can blame everything on the 70s.

Yeah. Those guys.

But they've done augmentation since then. So we've added more sheet to that herd since then in the 90s and. And as recently as. I think it's 2017. But that herd has really taken off. It's done really well. We've got the right sheep for the right place and they are thriving and they happen to be the currently the healthiest herd in the state. Meaning they don't have Mycoplasma obanimoniae as we term it, Amobi. And that's great. And so we have to protect that herd. And they're currently. If we want to do transplants anywhere, that's the only herd you can really do it out transplants.

That makes sense. I mean it's really so. It's so cool. Like I'll be up there in a late rifle elk hunt and we'll see more sheep than we see elk or deer combined. Like it was, it was so cool. And last year I had a client, we were like hiking up to get this bolt, like to get him in position to shoot a bull. And we had to wait for the sheep to move to clear so we could get closer. And it was so cool. Like that's just an awesome place.

But. And I have to give a lot of credits for that herd to the blm. The Rollins office of the BLM has done a lot of work to improve sheep habitat, including prescribed burns and conifer removals and guzzler projects. There's been a lot of habitat work done there. And that. I think that contributes to the success of that.

It has to. And the other thing that's really cool, I mean you can't really account for this in your. In a. In a sheep herd management plan. But like they had a huge fire come through and tear up the. Or like, you know, tear through the whole. Let's see it be the eastern side of the Ferris. Right?

Yeah.

And it's like if you're in that burn, it's like covered in sheep. But then when you're like back in the timber and stuff. I mean, I. I don't think I've ever seen a sheep in the timber in there. Right.

Like to your point.

Not to say that sheep won't timber up from time to time, but I don't prefer it.

Yeah.

To pay a load of more than.

But then to bring it back to Sweetwater rocks, you've got 2030 miles across. Like, you can stand on the Ferris and look at Sweetwater rocks across the horizon and you just go, like, I. I get to talk to all my clients about this. Like, yeah, there's. There should be sheep over there. You know, in theory, but like, we're working through the logistics of it. Is the Ferris Seminole herd where those would come from? In theory, then?

Yes, in theory it would be and it would be interesting. I don't know where exactly they would cap for the sheiks from. So I don't know. Because you're having issues with sheep trying to push east towards Skidros. If they would take those then from the Bennett side to one, discourage them.

From wanting to, like, go back.

Yeah. And then we would likely, if they were to ever do a transplant, we wouldn't just like, shoe them across the road. Right. We would put them in an area. No.

Keep drives. Not a bunch of Wyoming cowboys out there.

Like, yeah, yeah. There would be specific habitat and release spots that would hopefully keep them in that area.

That makes sense. So where are we at in that whole process? And like, as far as someone who is interested in making it happen, like, what can they do to help?

Yeah. I think right now it's a matter of education and conversations. Right. I think half of our issue is just misunderstanding each other's. For people who are opposed to transplants or fecal door for it, misunderstanding each other's reasons for being for or against it. So, you know, we heard Dan Willems talk last night at our banquet and. And really just trying to understand the other party come to the table, have facts, but also, like, see each other as people and. Yeah, just really trying to sort that out. So the more conversations we have and the more information people have, the better. Yeah. What can people do at a certain point? So right now we're looking to work with landowners on rangeland and fragments and things like fence conversions or water developments to improve the range land in the area for if and when we can put sheep there. And that's something that we raise funds for and we got money on the ground for. So always funding is important, but also just understanding and spreading the good word of like, yeah, well, we're out here.

That makes sense. And like, again, like, when you're improving the rangeland for sheep, you're also doing it for deer, you're also doing it for oak, you're also doing it for cattle producers and whoever else is using that ground.

Right. I mean, it's.

It's like a whole, like rising tideless all Ships type situation, right?

Yeah. Like, yeah, we've done cheatgrass. We. We've done some cheatgrass mitigation in the area. Would like to continue that. We've also funded some predator control because when you put new sheep in that area, they're going to get got. Yeah, we want to make sure that that's. And that's good for livestock producers to use, so.

Yeah. Well, and my home state in Oregon, I know that they did some, like, dedicated mountain lion removal on Heart Mountain so that they could try to help the. The sheep herd that was really doing poorly. And of course, like, if you do that, then, like, some. Some deer are going to benefit or whatever the case is. Right. And again, it just is like this whole cycle. It just continuously is like a healthy landscape that helps the ungulates at least.

Yeah, absolutely.

In this case, that's the goal. Yeah. What other big projects are. Are you all working on that, like, you're really excited about?

Yeah, we just had. I've talked about this a lot this evening because I'm so excited about it, but there's been a burn in the Whiskey Mountain area that's been in the works for over 30 years, and they finally pulled it off this. This past couple weeks ago. And this burn essentially connects summer habitat on Torrey Rim to the. I'm sorry, winter habitat in Tori Rim to summer habitat High. And it was. We were allowed to do it in the fix Patrick Wilderness, which is totally outside the box, but something that folks 30 years ago saw the need for. And just now, the last few weeks, this got done. And it really shows a partnership ability between funders between the Lyman Game and Fish Department and the Forest Service and the importance of being able to do and conduct prescribed fire.

Yeah, well, and that's one of the things like, you know, we had. There was a member that pointed it out that that was done in the wilderness and it was worked on, I think he said, in 1984, like, that amendment was put in there. And then here we are 41 years later doing it. And unfortunately, I think that's like half the battle of all conservation is. Like, when things are put into place, you're just constantly setting groundwork for things to be improved in the future. Right.

I mean, it's a long game also. That's a long game.

Yeah. So that burn is going to be really cool. Funny enough. I don't know if this is on purpose or not, but I end up doing a lot of guiding in that area, too. Yeah.

Really helping you.

And I'm over Here, like over here, like, oh, yeah, you know, like next November I'm going to go check that thing for bucks, you know, or whatever. So it's really cool. And like, I think that's the thing I keep harping on is just like, this is all connected and like, helpful for everything too.

Yeah.

Okay, so that toy room prescribed by fire, that one was what, 400 acres or something? Something.

Yeah. 40 acres.

That's a big chunk of ground when you consider, you know, like just a small fire.

The timber too. So it's not just like grouse. That's a little bit of a scary. Especially given the fires we've had in Wyoming the last year. Two years. That's a, A tough ask for.

Yeah.

Your fire managers and I, I gotta hand it to them, they got brave and they did it well.

And being in the wilderness, they couldn't. It's not like they could have trucks surrounding it. Right.

Like, yeah, I, you know, I wish I could have been there to see it. I did go up to the whiskey area and I saw a bunch of hose lays and up this creek sea. So I would be curious to talk to them and see how exactly they did it.

Yeah. And there's a great photo that I want to use with this episode of those sheep, like, while the fire is gone, like watching the burn. Yeah. It's like, I, I don't know. Obviously this isn't going through their brains, but like if you could put a bubble on, it'd be like, oh, yummy, you know, like, that's gonna be good. That's gonna be tasty. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So.

No, that's really cool. So there's another one that we just talked about was at our meeting was some cheatgrass stuff. Yeah. So why, why is cheatgrass like, not good for sheep?

Yeah. And she. Grass isn't particularly good for wildlife in general. I mean, it's, it's palatable for a very short time in the spring when it greens up and then it's not. And the issue with cheatgrass is it replaces native species, native forage, it can become a monoculture and it becomes an extremely flammable, fine fuel. So there's lots of issues. Right. We're, we're. When sheetgrass takes over, you're lacking the forage that animals need at the time of the year that they need it. You're creating potential for really big hot fires. You are also. Yeah. You're, you're not only reducing the grass and the shrubs eventually or the grass eventually can take over the shrubs. So it just changes the fire regime. So fire isn't bad, but when it changes the fire regime and the fire frequency and all you have left is cheatgrass, you basically have. It's like a groundscape with no food. Yeah. It's a landscape with no food. It's not good for livestock either. So it's, it's a real. This has become a real priority for wildlife managers in Wyoming and for sportsmen and conservationists. These amount of money in Wyoming that's being being put towards cheatgrass treatments is huge. And it's important because once you hit a certain point, you look at other places in other states in the Great Basin where sheet grass has become a monoculture, that's a disaster. And we still have time and we're in a spot in Wyoming where there's potential to, to come out of that, where we can still mitigate things and, and work towards not becoming a monofilter.

Yeah, it's a lot of that country I grew up in in like southeast Oregon, there's a lot of that. Nevada, Utah, you know, southern Idaho. It's like just is a blanket of it and it doesn't do anybody any good. And you know, we kind of conquer is like it. But yeah, yeah. My roommate, he's a forester and he keeps going like because he does a lot of stuff trying to mitigate you grass and he goes, but I can't mitigate all of it because I got to have some chuckers. I don't think he'll have a problem with that. But you know, in my brother and I have talked about, he works for the Soil and Water Conservation District in eastern Oregon. And they were like, yeah, they're celebrating, you know, a quarter million acres treated for cheatgrass in the last five years. Two million acres burned fresh last year. So it's like you take one step forward, four steps back. And I feel like Wyoming probably kind of has that issue too.

Right? Yeah. And I think we're at a point where people are working really hard at using the right tools in the right places and prioritizing the right places. So when there is like a prescribed burn planned, there is a cheatgrass mitigation plan with it, which is helpful. We know when there's a large space scale wildfire that we all need to join forces and raise money and get money to mitigate that cheatgrass. So Wyoming school and I'm sure this happens in other places, but we have, you know, between our wildlife agencies, natural resource land agencies and our NGOs and we also have the Wyoming Wildlife Natural Resource Press and our legislature has given money for cheatgrass. So feel like it's more than just, you know, our ag folks who know that cheatgrass is a problem. It's more than just our hunters and our wildlife experts that know it's a problem. It's becoming a top topic in Wyoming. And money, real money, is going towards the label.

Yeah. There's a great song by a. He's like a rancher, an outfitter, and a musician in Gillette named Kellen Smith. It's called Cheatgrass and Clover. And I just. I really love it because he's, like, kind of lamenting, like, cheatgrass and clover taking over for, like, his ranch. And then he's also a wildlife guy. Right. And, like, it's just. It's. It's become a thing that is literally in songs because it is such a problem. So, yes, it's one of those. So that you do probably say that's probably like one of the top.

One of our top wildlife concerns, because, I mean, if you just have acres and acres of cheatgrass, that's a real disaster for wildlife, It's a disaster for livestock. So, yeah, I think it's worth all of our time and efforts to work towards mitigating that.

No, that makes sense. So then, you know, you talk about habitat. We've got cheatgrass. You've got prescribed burns from conifer encroachment. You're working in the political realm with trying to get reintroductions where they can happen. But then, like, there's the. There's the last wheel or last spoke of the wheel, which is like the disease problems.

Right.

I think in Wyoming in particular, you kind of have the most research being done, like on the Whiskey herd and the Jackson herd. And for some background in, like, the Jackson herd, it's just like, kind of present. And therefore, when they see that herd get too high, then they crash.

Yeah. We have a situation in. In northwest Wyoming, some of our core native herds where that mov. Respiratory disease become endemic to the herds. Like, they. It just persists in the herd. So whether they're having contact with domestic sheep or not, at this point, it doesn't really matter. They're. It's just within the Jackson sheep seem to be handling it better than Misky sheep. And that. That's. There's a whole lot of different reasons for that. But yeah, for the Jass and herd, it seems like. And we have years and years of data, Data to back this up, that when the sheep get to the Biff, brown sheep get To a certain population of the lift between 450 and 500 there tends to be a die off. An all age die off and luckily for the Jackson herd they come back from it like their a roto come back from it. But it takes years and years. So right now some of the research that Heron Monteith, the Monteith shop has done in that area has led to, to this, the data has led to a management tool of you hunts. And I, I know that that's, that sounds crazy to some hunters because it's, it's not the Dharma that we've all grown up with. Right. You don't kill the females.

Yeah.

But in this scenario it is important if you want to keep a sustained sheep herd. Yeah. And keep. When I say an all age die clap die off I also mean big rams. So. And also it's like you said, you hunt him is an opportunity. It's a way for younger folks to, to understand what she painting is and, and get into that.

So yeah. And that's where I got my opportunity was in that Jackson herd which is cool because you know you felt like I felt like I was part of like kind of a conservation solution at some level. But then I also got to get up there in the sheep country which is of kind cool, super delicious and they're so tasty. One of the things that I constantly got asked though is like well why can't you just remove or relocate those sheep somewhere? Yes.

So especially in the Jackson herd we have this terrible respiratory disease that is endemic to the herd. So those are what we term dirty sheep. And you don't want to move very sheep to another herd unit because also when it comes to the these pathogens there's different strains and different types and you don't know how that strain and type will affect the herd that they go to. So if you're looking at we also have Yuhans and the Ferris Seminole. So why not take those sheep to another herd and bear. I like we have, we have places where we'd like to reintroduce some of those no sheep but taking them to another herd we just don't know necessarily how they would react. So.

And it could just be a death wish. Right. Like if you take a clean sheep and put it in a herd that might have some and what do you called it like an endemic like an always sleeping, a persistent disease. They're going to go there and then catch the disease and die. Right. And so it's like a decision of like well they're either Going to, you know, crash from these diseases or you can remove a handful of with hunters and put them in freezers. Right.

Yeah. And have some opportunity. And with hunting opportunity comes, you know, new, new people who are interested in sheep hunting and she conservation and the cycle continues, you know. So yeah, that's something that's important for sure.

So why not offer more ram opportunity for those herds.

Yeah, for those, yeah. So not to brag but females are the biological unit of any population. They're pretty important. So if you are trying to control a population at a certain level, killing a ram isn't necessarily, or a young ram isn't necessarily going to help with that population objective. But if you take out a certain number of ewes and the game of fish works really hard to try and figure out what that number is. You can actually, you know, there's less lambs and then you're human, your population isn't growing as fast.

That makes sense. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I feel like you'd struggle with is like well there's too many sheep here. Like let's just shoot more rams, have more opportunity. And it's like well that's not also going to do the, do the trick also.

It also throws off your H class.

So it's really weird to me. Like, and maybe you have some thoughts on this. I didn't prep you for that but like I think every state seems to manage sheep for age class versus like you know, really it's not a big thing for deer and elk and antelope to manage for age class like on the average.

Right.

Why do, why do they do that?

Well, I don't know that I know the exact answer but I know in some areas where we have less than three quarter curl tags, you know we had, in the Devil's can area we had a huge huge event die off event that was not a mobi. It was a different pathogen huge die off event that really killed off a lot of the older H class rams. And now they have a bunch of young rams and they're wandering and they're not. Yeah it, so in some, some scenarios where dungar rams tend to wander, you don't want a bunch of young grams around. You want some so they grow into big grams. But you don't want, you don't want that to be so off. And given the way that big horn sheet reproduce. Right. You have dominant males who fight to breed the females. So considering how that works too. So I'm not a, I'm, I'm Certainly not.

Yeah.

To ask this question. But those are some of my thoughts on it. Yeah. What it's sort of.

I had to go out on a lift.

Yeah.

No, that's good. Well, and that's the kind of cool thing. I don't know. I think it's cool just because it's like different. Like, like Wyoming's trying to think outside the box to manage these wandering sheep and there's three quarter curl tags. But it's crazy. Like we were just talking about this, I was talking about this with another board member the other day. And like they take 20 something points to go shoot a three quarter curl, you know, sheep. So what, like can you put in more plain language, like why are we having those three quarter curl clients?

Yeah, in plain language. So there's two different scenarios. We have one where we've got a thriving healthy herd. Those young rams are wandering off into an area that they could have potential conflict with domestic sheep and bring bring disease back. So those, those young guys are looking, they want to breed too. They're not going to because they're not the dominant male. So they're going to wander and look for that opportunity and then potentially bring that disease back to the herd. So by bringing that age class down to a three quarter client, we're hoping to lessen that scenario from happening. Another one is where the Dioptin's already occurred and the age structures just bunkers. So they're just trying to even out the age structure in a way. So.

Yeah, well, part of it is too, like it seems like, like you're saying they will, they'll go, they'll co. Mingle with domestics or whatever and then come back when they've realized there's no use out there for them to breed. But then, so they're basically, you're saying like they start wandering in like do they do it all in the rut or is it also food based?

Like that's a really good question and I think it's both. I think in terms of the Ferris Seminole and the Pedros, I think it is food based for them because it's kind of like.

Because the house is full.

Yeah. And they can see those rocks. Like the Pedros are within ey shot of them. And they're like, hey, that looks like there's. And that burned recently, right?

Yeah.

So yeah, it looks good. I don't know how they can tell that there's good fortune forage over there, but they seem, they seem to want to. So it, it depends on the time of year that they are wandering to really decide what the factors are there, but they are wandering at other times a year than the rut. So that would make it more food based or like. Yeah, there's just not room here.

Yeah, yeah, the beds are all taken out. Like you got to go somewhere else. Yeah. Oh, it's been, it's super interesting. And like, I think it's really cool that wildly wild sheep like does a good job of advocating for trying different things because I think there's like two, there's two ways to look at it. It's like, well, we don't have enough science to say that this is gonna work so we shouldn't do it. And then the other side of it is, well, this is the science to try it. And I like the fact that, you know, you and other board members and like other people in the conservation world in Wyoming and at the game and fish level trying to do different things. I think it's worthwhile to think like we're gonna learn something from it, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean we can learn from our, our, the past managers, right? Try to put desert sheep in central Wyoming. Yeah, but they had to try it to make sure it didn't work. So you know, we're not trying to be out there and, and doing things from left field, but we work with our researchers and our, our wildlife managers to try to support the best science based decision.

No, that makes a lot of sense. So for the rest of us, just average hunting people interested in sheep, what do you think is like the best way for us to support wild sheep in Wyoming?

That's a great question. I think getting out there and seeing sheep in sheep habitat when you can one like, that's what gets me going on. Wild sheep and just understanding where they live, the habitats that they live in the pinnacle's edge that they live on with the climate and the rugged terrain and everything and just understanding what a cool species they are. So just learning about them and knowing about them and getting a chance to see them I think is really important. But once you caught the bug of the big corn sheep, I think, you know, sharing, sharing that with other people, I think it's important. All of these NGO groups, whether it's wild sheep or muley fanatics, Mule Deer Foundation, Wildlife Federation, they all do good things for wildlife. So find one that captures your heart because we're all working towards some of the same goals. I would love for it to be Wyoming Wild Sheep foundation, but it's a good place to learn about all this stuff. And it's, you know, funding whether it's buying a raffle ticket from time to time or buying a membership so that you know what's going on and. Yeah, just sharing your conversations and your love for these wildlife species and keep hunting.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I'll make the hard pitch because we're putting together another Commissioner's tag raffle. It goes live June 15 to July 15, or until all 600 tag or tickets are sold. They're 50 bucks a ticket, so they're pretty cheap for a chance that, like any deer, elk, or analo client in the state. And I'll link those up in the show notes so people can find it, but absolutely.

And big thanks to Commissioner Mai, new commissioner, life member of Wyoming Wild Sheep foundation, for that awesome donation.

Yeah. And if everyone does draw it who, like, hears about this, like, hit me up because I love talking to people about Commissioner Stags. They're so fun.

Awesome.

Um, but thank you for being on here today. If people want to learn more about Wyoming Wild Sheep, where do they go?

Yep. WyomingWildsheet.org is our website. You can find us on social media, Instagram, Facebook at pretty. Just Google us. You'll find us.

Cool. Well, thank you for one, sitting down with me, and two, also just bringing me into the fold, like, and having me as part of the board. It's a really.

Jaden, we're so excited to have you and your. Your perspective. And, man, I've never met somebody so in a hunting as you are, so we're excited. We're excited to have you.

Yeah, I. Yeah, it was like, you talk about catching the sheep bug. I just caught the whole bug. I don't know.

Yeah. Awesome.

Thank you again. Same fun. Thank you for listening to the Hunt west podcast. If you like what you hurt today, the best compliment you can give is to share the show with a friend. We will see you on the next episode, and we hope one day to see you Hunt West.