Successful Colorado Strategies with Garrison Kinsel

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To the Hunt west podcast, here's your host, Jaden Bales. Hey, everybody.

Welcome to another episode of the Hunt west podcast. I don't like to do too long intros, but today I'd like to introduce you all to my good buddy. Technically a Hunt west client, but also just a heck of a good hunter, Garrison Kinsel Kitzel.

Yeah, I think, I think heck of a good hunter is, is quite a relative term. So we'll see. You're.

I, I love it. The last handful of years, you just been texting me while you're hunting and talking about what you're seeing and how things are going, and you're consistently in the mix, man. And like, I feel like that is alone. It's its own challenge just to like, always be in them, you know?

Yeah, I, I think, I think that alone I'm still, I'm still at the stage of the game where like, that feels good, you know, just, just having a fighting chance. And I, you know, anymore a lot of the hunts that I do, it just feels like that's just like you said, that's half the battle. So it feels good. And it also feels good to have people like you to text to be like, hey, you know, I'm in them. You know, I may come home empty handed, but it feels good. Feels good to have a fighting chance. Feels good to start taking buddies and get them into it. And, you know, you feel like at any given time something big could happen because you're not getting scumed.

Yeah, for sure. Now your whole background, at least with your, your family, is a Texas whitetail place where you guys manage pretty aggressively or like hands on, I would say. What's that all about? Like, tell us about your family's place because I honestly don't know a whole lot about it.

Yeah. And, and that's funny because that's, it's kind of what I tell people really threw me into the mule deer game and, and threw me out here is they're just so different and going so hard on that for so many years, being completely immersed in that. It. This, this whole public land, raw tag, stomp around, combat hunting with other people. Like that was such a foreign concept to me because I, like a lot of guys from, from out east, grew up hunting specific deer.

Right.

Managing. Letting deer get old. It's. I, you know, people want to say it's chess and checkers. Right. It's almost more like whitetail is, is chess and public land. Hunting for mule deer is Twister. Right. They're. They're not. They're not even close.

Yeah.

And there's. There's strategy to both. Right. But they couldn't be more different in a lot of ways. There's similarities, obviously, but. Yeah, grew up. Grew up hunting down there. We still. Or I still. I still go back and guide. And obviously that's, you know, kind of the long term game for me is. Is to continue doing that. I always say I'm married to the whitetail game and kind of having a love affair with mule deer. So that's. Yeah, that's. That's what I grew up doing. Born and raised into a cattle ranching family. I'm kind of just a fake, you know, wannabe cowboy, but I'm. I know my hunting, so grew up doing the hunting alongside my dad and we run hunts down there still and. Yeah. Yeah. So whitetail guy by trade, but now trying to do this mule deer thing.

Yeah, dude, I'm all about it, obviously as a. As a mule deer guy. It's so funny. I spend so much time talking elk and guiding elk hunters, but, like, when you give me some time off from work, like, I'm going chasing mule deer.

Yeah.

What did. What was it about mule deer that was like the thing. Like, what. What do you have, like, a specific story or an example of like, you got out there and you're just like, this is the stuff.

Yeah, I. So my first mule deer was a West Texas mule deer. And I'm hesitant to talk about that with anybody, you know, out here because I don't want anybody getting into the. Into the West Texas game. It's not like out here you can't. There's a lot more barriers to entry. Right. You can't draw a ton of tags. It's a lot of private land there. There are some opportunities, but I went on a hunt out there with my family. We got to hunt a friend's place, and me, my brother and my sister, we're gonna get to hunt mule deer. And you know, I shot a. I shot a cool buck. He's super sweet. He's kind of got like a turkey foot thing on one side. And that's what I saw when I shot him. But it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. But I remember leaving that hunt. My brother ended up shooting the biggest buck, and my sister shot the coolest bar, like old troll, like nasty, three by two. And I remember leaving and being like, I didn't shoot the biggest buck. And not like I'm used to. Not like I'm used to Killing the biggest bug. But I'm always like, you know what? I'm the one who, like, really lives and reads this. And I was like, there's gotta be something to this. And there was just something really cool about him and hunting out there. And I remember that drive back was hectic. You know, me and my family, we have such a good time when we hunt together. But I remember thinking on that drive back, like, man, I gotta go do this again. And then you start looking into ways to do it again, and you start looking at draw tags, and then you start looking at points, and then you start listening to podcasts. And I just got eat up with it. And I. I honestly think for about two years, I was just doing research, listening to podcasts, taking in information, building points before I ever even went on a hunt.

What do you think was like, the biggest learning curve in those two years? Because I get this all the time of like, hey, like, someone will email me, just, hey, I just want to go on a mule deer hunt this year. And they're like, I don't know anything about it. And I'm like, oh, buddy.

Oh, yeah. I. You know, I. I think one of the biggest things I did early on and this speaks to. To you and what you do for people, was I joined. I joined Epic and I called Epic and I said, I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about that. And I got real technical, and I, dude, I built. This is the nerd side of me. This is where you and I link up. I built spreadsheets on different units, and I had built kind of like an algorithm of, okay, this unit is good for this. This unit's good for that. This unit's accessible. And I put this formula together that would kick out, like, a score. And I start talking to Jason or somebody about all that, and he goes, dude, just pick up a tag and go. And I was like. I was like, what. What do you. Did you not listen to my analysis? And he was like, dude, just. Just get like a second choice tag. Go out there. Like, you're not gonna know anything until you go, you know, put some boots on the ground. But I think for a lot of guys, you know, you're almost scared to get it wrong, but you have to, right? You have to go out there and just suck it up. But that first hurdle, I. I still. I still remember that vividly. I was like, I don't know what this is going to be like, but you go out there, you do it, then you go, huh, okay, you know, that's one piece of data on this whole scatter plot and it takes time to build that before you kind of find your identity and what you're wanting to do.

Yeah, that's a great point, man. Like you don't know what you like or don't like until you get out and try it. I think, I think that was like one of the things that I forgot about early on because I, you know, when you, when you kind of grow up in it, you're like, oh yeah, we, we hunt the mountains and we hunt the low country. Like we hunt archer season, we've hunted rifle season. But before you have those experiences, you don't know how, you don't know what you like or what you don't like.

You know, you have no idea. And I, you know, I guess I'll throw a question back to you. Is that like, you know, is that a question that you tend to ask guys early on? Because I think when, if I'm talking to someone and I want to say, you know, I want, I want to give you pointers for a successful hunt. Well, the first thing is we have to define success. Yeah, right. Like I need to really pick your brain a little bit and say, what does success look like to you? Because if success just boils down to the biggest deer we can find, the biggest elk, or it just boils down to taking something home, what I'm going to tell you and the advice I'm going to give you is vastly different than if you're like, man, I really want a fun backpack hunt. Right. Or for me growing up, this sounds so silly. I wanted aspens. Like I, we don't have aspens. Right. Like I've seen pine trees, I've seen stuff like that. But man, like hunting in Aspen grove sounded so cool. And so I would look for units with aspens I wanted to hunt. I would naturally gravitate towards aspen. And if I went and killed a two by three in the aspens instead of a four point in the pjs, I cool. That was awesome, right?

Yeah, I think that's like the best. It's so helpful to have things like that to go on because otherwise like you said, you're kind of like overwhelmed by all the options. Because otherwise. Yeah, like where do you start? Right? Like what, what is your goal? And I think a lot of times, like for me right now, finding a mature deer is, and, and maybe even looking at fewer of them because of it is, is more interesting to me than being in the middle of like a two point fest but if you're just getting started and you got to get at bats and like, you know, like Cody Rich talks about, he's like, just trying to get at bats, just trying to learn how to do the thing, then you should go to the middle of whatever freaking Colorado unit has 30, 000 deer running around, and there's like two points and three points, like Rhett and Do's. And you don't have to leave your truck. You just have to learn how to glass. Like, yeah, that. That's definitely the order of operations I. I like to look at. And you do it with, like, guided clients, too. I'm sure that you do this with your guys in on Whitetail too. Like, once you know what you're hunting for, the rest of everything, like, the plans that you make fall into place, they're a lot easier than just being like, I don't know, I'm going on a hunt.

I'm just going hunting. Yeah, I. I think it's tough if. And this sounds so cheesy when people are like, well, you know, give me tips for success. And then you go, well, define success. It. It sounds like a. A cop out, but it's true. You need to really. And I would encourage anybody, write it down. You know, text somebody, put it in a journal. Really try to put into words what you want out of your experience. Especially if you're a guy coming from out east and you're spending money, you're spending time on this. Right. You're really putting a lot of resources into this. Write down what you want. You know, don't. Don't just go, oh, I'm just gonna go out there. And then on day seven, you come back, you're like, I didn't get anything I wanted out of that.

Yeah.

And. And I run into that too, with. With our hunters now, thankfully, we've had a lot of. I mean, we. We pretty much exclusively run off, off repeat hunters that have been coming with us for years. So I love my guys and, and they're awesome. But every now and then I'll get a guy who on, you know, will just kind of come clean with me and be like, well, I didn't really want to shoot a. An eight point, and we've been chasing an eight point all week. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. What do you. What's, you know, what fits your abilities? Like, I want to rattle one up. And I'm like, okay, if that's all that matters to you, then let's go do that. You know, you really got to define what you want or you're just chasing a moving goal post.

Yeah. And it's like part of the conversation with score that kind of keeps it fun. Like back in 2020 when I was in Colorado, my goal that year was to shoot 2 bucks that totaled 300 inches. So you'd be an average of 2,1 50 bucks. But I got like a 157 or 158 buck in Wyoming. So then I went to Colorado and I was like, okay, sweet. Like a 140s or better. And there was this three point dude. I like kind of like crept up.

It's always the three points.

I know he was pretty nice too. But I crept up and it was still hunting in aspens and in the snow, tracked them down. It was like I was like wanting that experience. But then I creep up on this bucket, like 70 yards. He's just bedded there looking at me and I'm just like. But he doesn't meet that like point goal. But it still felt like a success. Right. Because you get that part of the experience and then you just. That was day two. So then I just get kept to get kept hunting. And that makes it way more fun other than like, you know, obviously if you're just someone who wants to go like fill the freezer, you sneak up on that three point, you shoot that sucker like you, you call, you know, take that experience for what it's worth and just be like, heck yeah, did the thing. But that's where also, man and I, I'd like to get your opinion on this. Like, guys who put score in their head as like the thing that they're chasing can sometimes ruin their hunt that way too, because they forget all of the little micro wins and like the fun parts of it along the way.

Two things a, you know how I feel about score. It's, it's, it's in my mind. It's a means to explain a deer to somebody else. And, and it is a metric, you know, for like record books. And I love that. I think it's awesome. But the intangibles, like you just described the setting, right. That's bigger to me than anything. Right. Like my buddy this year in Wyoming, he went into our hunt same way. You know, we'd done a ton of research. I felt like I knew the unit pretty well. And he had a goalpost right of score. But he's the same way as me. You know, it, it changes, you know, if you find a ancient two by three with a Roman nose, we're torching that thing. Yeah. But he. He still hunted his way into a buck. And, like, that was so cool. And crept up on him. And he was a gnarly, you know, looking three point. And he was kind of like, I don't. I don't know. He actually, he. He hit me up and was like, I got this three point, like, in my crosshairs. I was like, dude, torch it. Yeah, dude, you. I was like, if you crept up on it and he's a, you know, kind of an older looking three point, not the greatest genetics. I was like, you and torch that thing. And he did. And the setting plays a huge role in that. I had a guy I was hunting with. I tell the story a lot, but I had a guy I was hunting with a couple years ago, and we'd hunted pretty hard all week. I want to say it was his last morning. And, you know, if you've hunted South Texas at all, everyone loves to talk about foggy mornings. Foggy mornings in South Texas are awesome because deer just kind of emerge out of the brush, and it's got this cool feel to it. And it was one of those mornings. And I. I try to steer away from showing guys trail cameras for this exact reason. But in this instance, this guy had told me, you know, he was after a score, right? He really wanted a certain score, which we kind of screwed ourselves, his two sons. Earlier that week, he was like, I want my sons to shoot, like, similar deer. And we ended up shooting a 131 and a 132.

Okay.

And he was like, oh, okay. So, like, that can work. I was like, that doesn't. That's not how that works. It usually does not pan out, like. And I give these guys a hard time. They're. They're awesome. But we. I showed him a picture of this buck before we went in there, and I said, you know, there's this buck, you know, that might show up. There's this buck. And I go, but, man, it's the rut, you know, I really don't know. And this one buck I showed him, he goes, he's. He's cool. What do you think he'll score? And I go, it's probably like mid-130s, right? At 140. And he goes, oh. And I was like, but you, you know, you never know. This buck comes out of the fog, just thick neck, bristled up, like he's coming to whip some butt. And, you know, guy puts his binos up and goes, what is that? Who is that? And I go, I knew it was. I'm gonna look at him. I go, that's. I shouldn't have said it. I go, that's that bucket I showed you this morning. And he goes, oh.

Oh, man.

I was like. I was like, dude, that buck is sweet. He's old, he's pissed off. He's walking around in the fog. And you got jacked up about it. Yeah, if it's me, I'm torching that thing because it got me jacked up. And. And he's. And he's old. But, man, I. You know, scores score's funny. It does funny things to people, and I think it's just because it's a number. I've told you, I'm starting to go off T score, and I can't. You did a podcast a while back with Gary Gardner. Is that who it was?

Yeah. The guy you met on your hunt? Yeah.

Was it really? No. This was, like, years ago.

Yep. Yep.

Okay. Is that okay? Yeah. And y', all, I think you were talking about Blackdale, too, a little bit.

We weren't really talking. No, no, it was just so. And just for background for people, I used to do these Melee Monday podcasts with Cody Rich.

Yeah.

And this guy Garrett, he's actually. He's my brother's brother in law.

Awesome dude.

And it just so happened that Garrett Garrison ran into Garrett on his hunt this last year, and. And they like to t score bucks, so that just means, like, you know, width plus height. And if you can t score over 40, that's usually a mature deer. And that kind of came from those guys who are hunting timber, just pounding timber, because you only have a split second to be like, am I going to take this buck or not? Is it a nice buck or not? And they used to have T score competitions in Eastern Oregon on mule deer, and so he's just kind of kept that thing going. And it's a sweet. I. I really like that. Especially when you're just like, out there, you're like, I just want a mature buck. Like, let's just, you know, just pound timber and, like, make quick decisions. Like, it's a great way to have a really fun hunt while also, like, probably getting a nice mature buck.

Yeah, I. I heard that. And have, you know, silently subscribed to that ever since. So I'm a big T score guy, and maybe that's just a way of saying I don't shoot big deer, because if I was in the game of shooting big deer, I'm sure I'd care about 180, 190. Know. Does he have a cheater? Does he not? Is that going to score? Dude, t. Scores are awesome. I think it's a great way to. It's. It's a great way to just say framy right. It. It. If a buck's framey, that's. That does it for me.

Yeah, it's one of those things. I think Colorado was so good that people were able to, like, just sit there and look over a ton of deer. And if you pass on a buck that you wouldn't otherwise in a different hunt, you knew that there was another one coming or you'd run into that one again. And nowadays it doesn't seem like that is the. That is the way to go. Now, keep in mind, I never. I never hunted those units in that way. Like, I, you know, you and I both probably missed that, missed that boat. We're just too young to do that. But.

But we're chasing those ghosts. You know, Robbie. Robbie Dunning always talks about how he would chase the. Chasing the ghosts of Kurt Garner. Right. And how guys were doing that. I'm chasing the ghosts of the Jason Carters and everybody that came here and my two plans that were here in. In 02 to 08.

Yep.

Or probably like even 2012.

Yep.

And they're like, yeah, man, you know, get a couple points, go get a third season Colorado, tag, hunt it a couple years in a row. And there's your 180. Not that way anymore.

Yeah, that seemed like such a. Yeah, that seemed like such an easy formula. But I've always wondered too, like, I'd like to see some of the data on Colorado because it seemed like almost people treat Colorado as bucks don't get old until they hit that mark. And I'm over here, like, that's. That's not really what the data says. But you, you know, maybe, you know, given Colorado's, like, badass habitat and just the. The genetics and whatever else that plays into the factor. The health of the. The moms and the health of the does on that landscape. Like, maybe they do have an average of a bigger buck when they get older.

But.

Yeah, it sure seems like, you know, people kind of get that score in their head and. And it takes over their. Their fun of the.

Of the punt. Yeah, well, and this is where a whitetail background. You know, I say that there's no overlap, but if you're a studious, nerdy whitetail guy the same way that you are with mule deer. That's how I grew up. With whitetail, there is some stuff that translates and genetics, learning what it takes to grow a big buck that doesn't change, the habitat changes, but the formula is still the same. And if I could give any advice to guys, you know, if you're looking at kind of a long term mule deer plan and you have some whitetail savvy, take that with you because that's what I look at when I'm picking units. Now you're talking to a guy who hasn't killed a monster, right? But I've, you know, I talked to enough guys and I've seen some big deer, you know, I've had some experience. It, it does translate. So when you're thinking about, okay, are there genetic pockets, right, Is there good habitat? Where can a buck get old? Because what's happening a lot in Colorado right now is there's units where the genetics are phenomenal. I hunt a lot of those units. But the older age class of buck, right, is usually that two by three that someone passed, right? It's that three by four that wasn't quite there. So now he made it to four or five years old. And some of the best bucks, unfortunately, and it kills me to say it because when I shoot them, I look at them and I'm like, damn, that, that was a baby giant. Some of the best bucks are just, you know, they're three year olds that were genetic freaks. But it does happen. And, and I honestly would say it happens a little bit more from what I've noticed in mule deer than it does in whitetail. There's three year old bucks in mule deer that are freaking studs. And, you know, with whitetail, at least I don't feel like we get those, you know, oh, hey, you shot a monster. But he was a little too young until they're at least like four or five. And then we could dearly get all the way up to like seven or eight before they really blow up. But that formula, you know, age, genetics, condition, mothers, you know, raising fawns in a good environment, that doesn't change.

Yeah, well, and you, you kind of. I think we can cut. Touch on it a little bit. You had this hunt in Wyoming last year where the, the deer. I don't know about your buddy's deer, but, you know, talking to Garrett, he was like, they all just were thick with fat. And you start thinking like, you put these like variables together and you're like, if people are getting bucks with just, you know, inches of fat on their back, I'm looking at that and Licking my chops because I'm like, man, that zone is going to keep producing better and better deer. Yeah, I think about that in Colorado too. I would imagine, you know, most people, you probably heard this and you'd know from seeing them, but like, those Colorado bucks can be huge, dude.

Huge. And, and I, I'm hesitant to talk about this, but if anyone's, you know, if you're listening this far in, take it, dude. Think about four years from now, right? Don't think about the condition of the deer right now. I mean, you can and you should. And yeah, deer will, you know, get two years under a burn and blow up, right? We see it in Texas all the time. They get two good years of a good summer and then that specific buck blows up. But what I'm looking at my chops at is the fonts that are hitting the dirt then, because I know that that fawn, if he can get to about 2 or 3 years old, he's probably got a really good chance of survival. And when he hit the dirt and his mom was oozing fat the summer that she had him, that buck is going to be at his best potential at 4, 5, 6. Right? So look down the road. Don't think right now. Look at, okay, that unit someone reported, right? And, and you know, you see the wildlife biologist reported all the time. You know, record fawn crop, right? Or record, you know, fawn fat or age or size. Think about four to five years from now and think about your draw strategy then. Can I draw that unit in a couple years? Should I hunt that unit? You know, once the buck's hitting the ground now, or four or five. That's how I play it. And again, you're talking to someone who hasn't laid down a ton of monsters. But, you know, that's a nugget and, and it's something I think about often.

You know, and here's a freebie for people. If you've paid attention to the biologists out of Utah, they've been posting a lot of that information. And I think that that is exactly the Cody Rich and I talked about this on one of the elk hunt podcasts. It's like as you're in this game, you pick up just like a little bit of like tidbit here and there and you store it in the back of your head. You know, a couple, two years ago when we had the hard winter, like deer were dying like crazy in the northern part of Utah, but in the southern part of Utah, they were recording record size fonts and record, like, survival. So you take that and you just like. Like you said, you add five years or add what you know, however many, like what you're going for. And that's how you build better strategies. It's not. It's not like, what's good today, man? If you're chasing what's good today, you're behind the curve. You're way behind.

You're way behind. Yeah. And it's no joke. We had a buck in Texas. That is a really cool story, and I'll make it quick, but I named him Garbriel, right? And he's still, to this day the only buck that I've definitively gotten to say. Because we don't run pin deer, right? We don't have. I know everyone likes to think, oh, Texas, you know, you feed them out of your hands. We don't have any of that. This is the only buck I've gotten to say that I definitively have known since he was a fawn because he had a busted eye. He came out with his mom, he's a twin, actually, when he was a fawn and I could see he was a little nubbin, had a glazed over eye. I don't know what happened to him, but I could tell, dude, his mom was huge. He was huge. He was about her size already as a. As a baby. And I was like, man, that thing, you know, that'll be interesting to see what that thing turns into, dude, next year. He's already a 10, right? First set, first set of antlers, he's already a clean 10. And I called him guard rail because his main beams just go like that perfectly parallel, super sweet buck. And I just watched him over the years and he just stayed like a total student. And the cool ending to the story is I had built up this idea in my head, you know, oh, I'm gonna let him get to this certain age and I'm gonna protect him and feed him and, you know, go shoot all the coyotes in his home area and, you know, I'll get to shoot him. Well, the year that I, you know, thought, okay, maybe this will be the year to take him, this other buck that I killed blew up and became just like a buck. You can't, you know, you can't pass. It was like a once in a long, long time type deer. So I went and chased him and hunted him. And then after that, I was like, you know, man, like, this is our family's place. I can't go. I'm not gonna go try to Kill two big bucks in two years. Like, my cup is full. I'm stoked on this buck. Like, that's awesome. But someone needs to go hunt Garbriel. So it's been a long running joke in my family that my dad has never. I. I'd never seen him shoot a big buck. You know, he's got all these big bucks on our wall, but he's kind of just an old cowboy type. He'd rather shoot the calls and does. He hates those. He has a vendetta against those.

That's awesome.

That's a, that's, that's a. That's one big difference between whitetail, mule deer and we don't touch those out here. But he went out after Thanksgiving by himself and Cartwheel came out and got him. And he ended up scoring 175 as a clean. Like a legit clean. Seven by six, no kickers, no nothing. Seven on this, on the main. Just clean.

That's sweet.

And I think back and I'm like, man, I remember how big he was as a fawn. And when you go places out west and you. And, and I saw it this year in that unit that we hunted in Wyoming, I'm looking around at these fawns. I'm like, man, these things are, are huge. And that buck, my buddy killed, Garrett, like you said, probably the same way we cut him open, just fat. Like, your hands are just white with fat. And I think that's cool because I know that buck's going to taste great. But I'm also thinking like, man, can I draw this unit again in four years? In five years?

Right?

That's. That's immediately where my head goes.

Yeah, I think that that is, that, that is the formula that people oftentimes like, I, I get into this, man, and I don't know about you, but like, I like trying different units, you know, And I, I like. Actually, this is a great example. I went to that same mountain range you were in because I was like, yeah, I haven't hunted that for. Actually, I never, never hunted it for deer. And I was like, let's just go check it out. You know, like there's not even known to be, you know, that many big, big deer in the general part where I was at. And I was just like, ah, let's just go see what's up there. Really what I should have done is probably gone to some places if I really wanted a big one, you know, Go to some places I knew already.

Yep.

Are you doing that kind of strategy in In Colorado, are you going back to the same unit you can as. As often as you can?

Yeah.

What do you think? What do you think you're learning from that? Because especially you're in, you're in some, like, migration or rut hunts. So it's not like you're watching the same deer every summer.

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess we need to. We should probably get back to Colorado now, think about it and start focusing on that.

But yeah, you're like, stop talking about this other stuff.

Well, I'm, I'm also thinking I'm like, I'm gonna start bird walking my way into talking about whitetail. And we don't need to do any of that. But that. We could do that on a totally different podcast. But the. On the Colorado side. Yeah, I, you know, for guys that want to. If you want to learn just Western hunting, period, I hate to say this, but, yeah, come. Come to Colorado and just hammer the same unit a couple years in a row. You're going to learn more doing that. And, and I say Colorado because it is one of the last places where you can scoop a deer tag or a bull tag, at minimum, you know, get an OTC tag while they're still here. And, and you can hit a unit a couple years in a row and start to build points, like I said, on the scatter plot, so that you can put a line together of things that are true. Because I think that's the hardest thing when you're starting out is learning what's, what's true and what was just an anecdotal observation from one hunt. Right. And then when you go back a couple times, you start to go, okay, deer really do like that type of brush. Okay. When the snow hits, they really do do this. It's not just this one hunt that I observed it. I went to the same place a couple times in a row and I observed the same behavior. So that is something that's true. Take that, extrapolate it, throw it in another unit, throw it in another state. And that's, that's how you start to kind of build, um, you know, build. And it's different for everybody. I'm going to say build your identity right in hunting because it, it really is different for everybody. Some guys are sagebrush dudes, right. And some guys are high alpine, early season guys, elk guys, mule deer guys. Build your set for what you're trying to do and that's how you take it somewhere else.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm going to Open a can of worms that you probably aren't too excited about. But here we are. When you're out here deer hunting, how often are you running into elk and wishing you had an elk tag?

This is my, this is part of my problem, and this is why I'll probably never kill a big deer, is I usually already have an elk tag or I have someone who has the elk tag because I learned from guys who said, you know, if you go hunt deer, you're going to run into elk. And, and like we talked about from the get go, it feels good to just be successful sometimes, right? It feels good to just be in them and see them. And I was at a point where I was like, man, I want to have an elk tag because I want to come home with something, right? And if people are supposedly running into elk every time they're hunting deer, well, then, yeah, I'm going to pick up a tag. And I built a bad habit. So now I always have an elk tag or someone with an elk tag. And we see the damn things everywhere. And then we go chase them and kill them. And then I turn around and I'm like, oh, there went my hunt. Cool. Yeah, for next year especially, because, you.

Know, I don't know about you, but it sure seems like you kill an elk. Like, killing the elk, like getting to getting it on the ground doesn't take a whole lot of time. Usually it's packing it out that takes a day or two days, like, depending on where you're at.

That.

That, like, that's where your hunt goes out the window.

Yeah, I killed my bull last year, like 1800 vert below the truck in like 2 something miles. And I've gotten to a point now where I know better. And I turned to my buddy before I did it and I said, hey, I'm asking your basically your blessing because I know what this is going to be, right? And he had come to help me with my deer hunt, and I picked up an OTC tag because I, you know, I've got a wife at home. I like eating opening and these, these l came through this saddle. We actually watched a whole group go through kind of going, Should we do that? And then this one lone bull comes through. And I was like, yeah, I was like, we need to shoot that.

Yeah, that was a good bull.

So we for dude, for an OTC tag. Yeah, I'll torch that bulb every day of the week. So I shoot him. And then it was, it's, it's like you said, shooting's the easy Part you shoot him, and then we're like, yay. And then we kind of look at each other like, how. Ooh. Yeah, we spent. Yeah, we spent two days packing him out. And then by the time I cleaned up and got him, you know, processed and in the cooler and everything, I've got three days left of my season. So. Yeah, I mean, but. But to answer your question, yeah, I'm. I'm running into. I mean, you know the answer. I talk about this all the time. I'm running into elk way more than. Way more than I'd like to.

It's one of the things that gets me thinking and not thinking, just in conceptual sense, but, like, when I'm building plans for people, I honestly. Especially when I'm just trying. Just trying to get people into critters, I honestly build a very similar plan for elk hunting as I do deer hunting. Not because I think that there's not, like, differences between the two species and how they interact, but because they seem to like similar places. And if you're on a good glassing knob, you can see both of the things that each species likes from one spot. Right. Whereas people who are like elk. Elk like the timber. I'm going to go pound dark timber. I'm like, yeah, it's great, but there's still, you know, few and far between enough that you're going to. You're going to pound a lot of timber before you run into an elk.

Yeah. And I would add a caveat there. I would say they like similar places during similar. During certain times a year, up to a point. Can you still hear me?

Yeah, you're good.

Okay. My thing went weird for a second. This year was my first time trying to target, and I hate this, but it was just kind of like I had an opening in my season. I had a spot that needed filling, and I actually drew a really good elk tag and then had to turn it back. So I. I ended up with this tag. But this was my first time targeting. Okay. I. You know, I. I actually have time. I want to go kill a mature bull. Right. I don't want to just kill any bull. And I think that's the distinguishing point in Colorado is they. They do like, similar areas. If you can sit on a certain knob, you might be able to see both pretty often. Up to the point that it's late season and you're looking for a big bull. Right. Then it changes. And I. I think the same goes for deer. I think, you know, you might be able to see them in similar places. Up to the point that you're really looking for that next level buck. But that's why we like them, right? Mature bucks and mature bulls, it's because they can be seen in similar places up to a point, and then they change once they hit maturity. The things they look for, the things they like, the places they feel secure, it's a little different. But if you're just looking to come out and see elk and seed here and have at bats, like Cody always says, at bats are huge right out of the gate, that's the biggest thing you need. I'm still looking for them. Yeah. There's a lot of overlap in, in where you look for both.

So I have my opinions on this, but I wanted to know what were some of the things that you looked at when you were like, okay, we're no longer just like, looking for a side quest elk, like, we're gonna go find a mature bull. How'd you approach that differently than if it was a deer hunt at that same time? And keeping in mind the context is a late season, you know, you're talking, you know, where Colorado's majority of their rifle season opportunities are like post rut, right? So this is, this is well past your archery and your first rifle stuff.

The first thing you got to do is you have to absolutely hate yourself. Because if you're gonna go try to find a big, mature, late season bull, you just need to torture your legs. That's. That's kind of not true in some ways, but it. At. By the time you're done, it, you're gonna be pretty gassed. Because most of the time, these bulls live in crappy spots and they do that for a reason. Right. You know, when they're done with the rut and they're tired, they don't want to be messed with. And if you really watch them, um, you'll see they just, they kind of move. It's almost like they're hungover. Right? It's like when you're hungover, you don't, you don't want to. You don't want to leave the house. I want to go from, you know, living room, bedroom, kitchen, in that order. And I just. That's right. I'm just going to run that little circle and I want it tight. I don't want to get up and go drive 10 miles to, to go get lunch. Even if it's a really good spot, I want to stay in my little hole. And that's how they feel. Um, and they usually pick crappy places where they know they're not going to get pushed from that hole. Um, so yeah, that honestly that's the first step is kind of figuring out, okay, where would a bull have everything he needs to meet all his needs and know that he's more than likely not going to get pushed by hunters, by other animals, get bothered by cows. If you're looking for a big bull and you see cows, you're probably in the wrong spot. And again, like you said, this is for late season.

No, that makes total sense. I like how you're like, yeah, you kind of just have to hate yourself. It's not necessarily that. It's not necessarily that getting to it, like getting to seeing them is that hard. But yeah, usually this is one of my favorite things to do is like go find one micro feature that's like, let's say it's the only half mile from the road, but it's a thousand vertical or it's 500 vertical and you know, something like that. And you're just doing this. You start with a thousand feet for breakfast or whatever and that's where you start glassing. And usually they're further in from, from whatever that is.

You know that, that Shane Gillis clip that everyone uses where he's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's basically what happens late season when you glass the. A big bowl, you glass him and you're like, sweet. And then you look at like what it takes to get to him and you look at the map and you're like, oh man.

Yeah.

And that's what happened to me this year. I, you know, I glassed those bulls up and I want to say it was like 9 or 10am on my first morning and granted, like, I, you know, I felt like I kind of knew where they were going to be. You know, when I, when I looked up there, it checked out. But I looked at them at 9 or 10am that morning and I knew I wasn't going to be able to make a play that day. Right. I was already thinking about tomorrow because they were in that crappy of a spot and that was me thinking about thermals and some other stuff and where they went. But I looked at them and I was like, okay, I'm getting up at 3am tomorrow. And I did. I got up at 3. I hit the trail at like 3, 33, 45. And I hated myself. You know, it's like you said thousand feet for breakfast and, and that's what it took. And I got in there and got it done. But yeah, it's it's usually not finding them that's always the hardest part. It's usually finding them and going, okay, how do I. How do I get there? Then how do I get out?

Yeah, that's. Dude, it's that way. Even on, like, the best hunts that I've been on in, In Wyoming or whatever, I talk about this a lot. I grew up in the Mount Emily unit in eastern Oregon, and that's exactly how like, that late season hunt is too. You're just like, okay, sweet. We can, like, the road is, especially on these, like, good units is like, you can usually glass them up from the road, but it's. They're still elk hunting, right? Like, you just still got to go like, oh, buddy, this is going to be a haul.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's like one of the things that is really frustrating with people who want a certain age, class or maturity, but haven't done, like, the physical fitness to, like, get back in there. Now, obviously, like, if you have horses or livestock, like, of any kind, like, that helps the situation, but man, yeah, it's. It sure seems to be the case. But it's one of the things too. Like, how far are you. How far are you glassing these things up from? Usually a mile.

It depends, you know, it's. It's. I. I guess that's one of the things. So I, I really like hunting the snow, right. And I, I think it's just because I didn't grow up with it, you know, I think a lot of people are like, oh, this, this sucks. And it's cold and it is, but there's some rope. You know, there's a little bit of like, romantics to it, and I love that. But more than anything, I love it because, dude, they pop like, you know, sprinkles on an ice cream, right? And so if there's snow, I'll glass them up miles away. I want to say that bull, bull I killed this year, a thousand yards, not that far.

Okay.

You know, like, that's. That was the crappy part, was I looked at him and I was like. And not that far. And then I look at the map and I was like, I need to go all kinds of backwards to get to where he is. But again, that's why they like to live there. So, you know, that. That was one of the things I really struggled with. And this, this is, this feeds into what we were talking about earlier. And what I was saying is you got to just come out here when I was looking at buying optics, right? And I'M e scouting and I'm doing all these things to try to prep myself before I come out here. I could not understand what was too far and what was too close. I'm looking at pins and I'm going, okay, if I sit here, I can glass that. But is a mile too far? Is 800 yards too close? You don't know these things until you throw your binoculars up or you hit the mountain and start to realize what distances are feasible for what optics for what scenarios, for what season. I struggle with that a lot. And I still do struggle with it to an extent. You know, I look at a glassing spot and I'm like, I can see everything. You know, when I'm e scouting when you get there and you're like, oh, crap. Yep. So that, that takes time and you. And that's another one of those things. You just gotta come out here and do it before you learn it. Or you gotta, you know, talk to a nerd like Jaden and he'll tell you like, hey, dude, that glassing spot ain't gonna work. That's three miles away.

Yeah, it's a tough, like you said, it's a tough balance. There's father and son that I'm helping put together a plan in, in Arizona. And I was like, what do you guys have for optics? You're like, we don't have any spotting skills. We're from Pennsylvania. And I was like, sweet. And it actually, like, is helpful if you just tell me you have a constraint because then you can build a plan.

Yes.

Where I'm like, okay, great. You're going to be glassing a mile and in for deer, you know, or you're going to, you know, if you have snow on the ground and there's elk, you can see them from forever with your naked eye. But yeah, that's exactly, you know, as. As you're saying, like if you give yourself constraints, then you can build a plan around it because otherwise it'll be like, oh, I heard, you know, Jason Carter glassed up deer at 3 miles or Travis Harves or Robbie Denning or whatever.

Yes.

And then you realize that they're using these big eyes and they're, you know, multi thousand dollar optics and like they're doing the thing. And that's a different game than if you're just getting started and you've got a set of 10x42s that you're throwing on a tripod.

I will, I will say this, and you tell me if you think it's. It's wrong. But I think guys coming out here for the first time, or maybe if you're just looking to get into it for the first time, if you're kind of at that, that more entry level and you don't have all the stuff, don't get caught up on that. Play to your constraints because constraints can oftentimes end up being a strength because it narrows your focus.

Right.

Don't be listening to podcasts and thinking, okay, like you said, Travis Hobbs or somebody glass something up with a btx. I can't kill a big buck unless I have a btx. Okay. We're at a point now where unless you're on these primo units, right, Maybe only having a 10 by 42 puts you in a scenario, a specific scenario, a specific approach, that if you just play that game, you might be better off than if you've got the whole, you know, gauntlet, right. If you can play the whole field that honestly, especially on some of these shorter seasons, that might just get you lost. Right. And if you're like, hey, I'm only good thousand yards and in, or, hey, I've only got a six power scope. Okay, cool. You're going to be a timber guy all week. Go pound timber. Right. Go still hunt the aspens. You might be better off, right, playing to that than the guys who have everything at their disposal because those guys will get lost in the sauce. Right. You're just, you're doing too much.

Yeah. It's one of those things, you know, whether you're talking September elk and you talk to a guy like, should I sit wallows or should I call or should I glass? And I'm like, just pick one, right? And then like, you gotta stick with it long enough for it to work.

Yeah.

Don't give up. Yeah, but that's where you know, if you, if you are. And this is kind of where I'm at in the game is like, especially for mule deer. And I, I want to talk, I want to hear about your pounded timber for this bull. But I know my glassing game strong. I can spot and stock something pretty good. But there's going to be a buck that I glass up that is living in a place that you can only kill them if you're pounding the timber. And so I've been looking at it as like I'm sat. I'm going to sacrifice some of my strengths to build up another one so that I have another tool in the toolbox to use. But yeah, and that's what I was in that, in that Deer hunt not far from you. I was like, I want to pound timber to find these deer. And as a result, I, you know, it was a lot lower chance of success doing that because I don't. I'm not very good at it yet. How do you think about, like, you know, like, you glass that bull up and you're. Now you're starting to blend these things together, and that's where there's a little bit more finesse. There's a little art to it. It's art.

It goes from science to art real quick.

Yeah.

And Robbie Denning always talks about that. He goes, look, man, like, I can live and die by one tool, but it's only going to give me 90% of the way there. Yeah. Glassing is only going to get you so far. And at some point, you. It's not like you turn it off. It just transitions. Right. It changes. And now that's not your primary tool. Right. I think about football like, you know, you can run the ball forever, and if you're a good running team, that's great. But at some point, you're going to need to pass. Yeah. And two things on the. On the bull. I'll talk about that. But you hit on something that I think is really cool to think about and important for guys, and it was really important for me this year. We went into that hunt in that country in Wyoming that you and I were talking about, and my buddy and I, you know, after about a weekend of scouting, and I was texting you, and I was like, dude, this is not. This is not going like I thought it would. We realized pretty quickly it's gonna go from a glassing, the low country glassing, you know, a burn or whatever, to, man, we're really gonna have to learn how to still hunt. We're gonna have to learn how to tiptoe and. And play that game. We both did a really good job early on of saying, hey, even if this hunt doesn't pan out the way we wanted it, I can tell that we're gonna have to learn something. We're gonna have to grow, and I'm gonna look at this as an opportunity to grow my hunting skill set. So if you find yourself in a situation where things aren't going like you planned and you're having to play a different game, don't just go like, oh, crap. Like, you know, this sucks. This isn't my skill set. Go, man. Okay, cool. I'm gonna get to learn something different. And you're gonna leave that hunt with a nugget that you may not tap into for another five years, but then all of a sudden you find yourself in a situation where you glass something up. You got to go still hunt it. Okay, cool. Now I can rely on my skill set that I developed in that, that, you know, tough hunt. And yeah, and I guess in a way that did kind of play out for me this year. I, you know, we did that deer hunt. I, I learned how to at least try to hunt the timber. My buddy killed his buck in the timber. I know Garrett killed his buck in the timber. And, and that became the strategy. And so by the end of the week, that's kind of what we were doing. But, you know, we just got, we ran out of time. You know, season ended. So fast forward, you know, glass up that bowl, do all that. Well, I get up there to where, where these bulls are, and like I said, got up at 3am crawl over this ridge, get in my spot, built my ambush. I mean, I, I was right where I knew they were going to be crickets. Nothing comes out. And I was like, well, okay, this is, I've got a short season. I don't have a ton of time for this hunt. You know, I, I, like I said, I squeezed it in and I said, I think I know where they are and there's a little bit of snow on the ground. I'm going to go track them. So that's what I did. I walked that ridgeline. I got the wind in my favor, attract them. And it was kind of at that point where you can tell the snow had been a couple days old, but you could tell what was a steaming hot track and what was kind of a crusted over, the sun has melted it and then it refroze type track. So I'm in there like old tracks. And I'm like, man, they, they really like being up here. Which I kind of suspected, but now I'm getting confirmation. Well, then I start cutting new tracks and I can tell, I'm like, oh, that snow's a little, little kicked over. And then they go in the timber and I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm going into the timber. And. And there was actually another group of elk on, on the other side of that ridge. And I was like, you know, I'll work my way down there. So I can't take full credit for it, you know, knowing what I was doing, but I was working my way through where I'd seen these fresh tracks to get to this other ridge. And you know how I'm sure you run into this a good bit when you're. You're teaching guys or telling them stuff. But you know how you'll tell like a. Like a kid or a toddler or something, or you'll tell somebody something and you'll go like as you're explaining it, like, yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I think that checks out. But you don't really know if it's legit. You're like, someone's done that before.

Yeah, Yeah.

I had told my buddies earlier in the season when we got in on some elk that we were hunting, and I knew they were in there. I could smell them. I was like, man, you know, if you can't be quiet, cow call, right? If you need to move through country and you can't, you know, you can't be quiet, just chirp here and there. Well, I've never done that. You know, I've. I mean, I've done it, but I've never. I've never killed anything doing that. And I was like, but it just makes sense. I'm like, if I can't stay quiet, I need to sound like something. They know your cadence, right? They know the cadence of human footsteps. Like, they know the difference between elk footsteps and deer footsteps, and humans just going, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. So I'm walking through blowdown timber with crusty snow. I can't keep quiet to save my life. And so I'm just chirping, right? I'm chirping here and there, and I catch some movement. And it was right after I cut some fresh track. So I slowed down, and I catch the movement in the corner of my eye. I look over, and in my binos, I'm looking at my movement, and it's a log. And I'm like, it's weird. I thought I saw something move. And in the. I mean, like, the far corner, there's an elk face. It's not. And I'm looking at the log, and I'm like, oh, crap, there it is. And it's this face. And I can see big brow tines. And at this point, I'm headed back downhill towards my truck. So I'm like, man, you know, I want a big bull. But, you know, I. I could. You know, I. I could use smoke meat. I'll fill the freezer. I was like, if he's legal, I'll torch him. And I knew if this was the same group of bulls I'd seen, I knew most of the bulls in there were decent, but there was one really big one. So I see that bull. I can tell I'm not going to get a shot on him. He kind of starts walking, and this is where I credit the cow calling. He didn't just bolt. He kind of just, you know, did the little walking and kind of sticking his head out, walks down a little further. And, you know, I keep calculing, and we're kind of just paralleling each other until I can get to an opening. And finally I see where my opening is going to be. This is hilarious. There was, you know, this much snow on one of these blowdown logs, and you, you know, you think like, oh, I'll just set my gun down on that snow. It'll. It'll pack down. No, it's all fluff. And I set my gun, and it just goes. Snow goes everywhere. My scope is covered in snow. But Now I'm like, 60 yards from this bull. Like, it's gonna be a chip shot. So if I can get this snow cleared, well, I set my gun down, blow the snow out, walks perfectly into this little opening, and I punched him. And I'll be honest, I didn't know it was the big bull. I just. I had seen brow tines. I honestly, I didn't even think it was the big boy. I was like, man, you know, those look, like, decent, you know, brows, whatever. Get up there. A little bit of blood. Not a whole lot. I'm starting to think I made a bad shot. I'm like, ah. I mean, that was a chip shot. I was like, I shouldn't. I shouldn't have screwed that up too bad. But there's not much blood. Well, I go a little further. I can see where he busted down this big tree. And I stop at the tree and. And I know from whitetail, I'm like, I can't. I need to stop. I need to slow down. Well, I stopped to pull out a snack and. And, you know, let him die. I'd waited, like 15 minutes at this point. Stop. I'm like, I'm gonna have a snack. Wait 15 minutes. And I look up, and he's dead right there. I just hadn't seen him. He. He took a hard 90, and I was like, oh, crap. And, man, dude, I mean, for me, at least for an OTC hunt, I mean, it wasn't otc, but it's, you know, it's an OTC unit. It's a. It's a crappy tag. You know, I got it on leftover because no one else wanted it. Hell of a bull. I mean, in my, in my opinion, for. For an OTC Colorado bull, hell of a bull. But yeah, it's. It came from having to implement an uncomfortable approach. So I think that's where people get hung up sometimes. Not. In fact, more often than not. Your success isn't always going to come from like your most comfortable approach. You're going to look back when you've got an animal on the ground and go, oh, that's not how I thought it would go down. That's not how I thought I was going to execute it. You can't. It's. It's a little bit of arts and crafts. It's not very science.

Yeah, I do. I totally agree. Just like you're saying, I mean, you could have all the long range set up like a 338rom that you have like this, you know, souped up, scope on or whatever, and you feel like.

And then you punch one in the timber at 50.

Yeah, exactly. That's one of my favorite things, though, about, like when you. When I think about creating setups, it's. It's always being able to do both. Not just do one thing.

Don't be a one trick pony.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, 100%.

Well, that was awesome, man. That text was one of my favorites of the year. Just seeing that bull, I was like, holy crap, dude. Like, good work. That was like you said it was. It's a hard hunt. And I think that's one of my favorite parts though, is every time someone tells me, oh, this unit doesn't have anything interesting, like there's no elk here or there's no big ones there, like, someone out there is going to prove that person wrong every time.

Yeah.

And I think you did a good job of that.

If you want to kill a big something in Colorado anymore, it's. And you don't have a pile of points or a pile of money, honestly, go to those units. Go to the ones where everyone's cussing it and they're saying, you know, this sucks and you're not going to kill anything big. Go in there, give yourself three to five years. I'm too impatient to do it, and I get scared from stuff like that. But that's what we were talking about from the beginning. I'm going to give you different advice, Right. If you say you want to kill something big versus if you want to, you know, have a good time or you want to backpack on or whatever. If you want to kill something big, that's what I'm gonna tell you to do. Go to those Crap units that everyone cusses and put your time in. And, and honestly, that's, that's the way to do it. So don't, don't listen to people on crap like that.

Yep. Dude, that's a. My saying this year has been time and pressure. Make diamonds. Like, that's all it takes. Bingo.

Yeah, so that was the first thing I, I thought of after that is I was like, you know what? Everyone would cuss this unit, but if I was an elk guy, I'd keep doing this.

Yeah, exactly. No, it's awesome, man. Thanks for always, like, including me in your adventures and let me follow along. Dude, it's been really fun. I get to live vicariously in all these different hunts that you're on, and, yeah, it's fun to watch, so appreciate it.

Well, dude, you, you've been there since the inception, so. Yeah, man, I, I, I love it and I'm, I'm stoked to have you as a sounding board. I, I think if anyone, if you're kind of looking at starting out in these hunts and you are looking for little nuggets and you're looking at pieces of gear, mentorship is far more valuable than anything else. And that sounds, that sounds easy. And I'm making it sound like, oh, yeah, just find somebody, you know, but it, it, you and I started talking a while back, but I've got other guys that I've talked to and reached out to, and, and these little nuggets that you get from people are what help you build, like I said, your identity. Right. And, and what you want to do and how you want to be. So before you go saving up tons of money for gear and hunts and, and you do need to do that, you know, it's, it's, there's a lot of gear involved.

Yeah.

Find a mentor. Right? Find somewhere, something that, that keeps feeding you knowledge, gives you a little bit of that maturity.

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. I just heard a podcast, like, totally. It's called My First Million. These guys are like tech bros, Freaking investors. And like, the one dude was just going off about this exact topic. He's like, man, if there's one thing that I can do, it's like, find someone who knows what I would like to know and then just like, work with them. Just figure it out. Yeah.

Yeah. And the tough part about hunting is you're going to run into people. It, it feels exclusive, right? Because you don't want to ask people where you're hunting and, you know, don't. But, man, there's a lot more good people out there that are willing to help out. If you're humble, you just frame your questions, Right? But, man, I. That's. That it is what you just said. Look at people that are where you want to be, right? And. And ask questions, you know, come in humbly and just be a sponge, right? And. And that's the way to do it. And mentorship will get you much further than YouTube videos and Joe Rogan and Meteor and all that crap. Find someone that's actually going to, like, be a sounding board so that when you have questions and you are thinking these insane thoughts about where you want to go and what you want to do, someone can go, yeah, that checks out. Or, no, dummy, don't. Don't be thinking like that. It's. And if anything, if nothing else, it just keeps you from going insane, because with how many places there are to hunt and options and things you can do, you will start going insane. It'll keep you up at night thinking of all the possibilities.

Dude, I'm still in the middle of it. It's like my favorite things. You're my sounding board. You know, I was talking about. Well, I'm thinking about doing that. Well, I'm thinking about doing this, like.

Yeah.

You know, until that application is in, I'm gonna be bouncing ideas back and forth the whole time. So.

Well, and the. The problem is, once you get a little further into it, honestly, I'm. I'm probably in a worse place now than I was when I was living in Texas, because now I have too much at my disposal. When I was in Texas, I was like, all right, I have, like, you know, 10 days of PTO or whatever. I'm gonna focus in on this. Now, do I want a doe pronghorn tag? Can I squeeze that? Where can that go? And it's like, dude, stop.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Yeah.

Well, cool, man. I really appreciate you taking the time to hop on. If people want to hit you up, what's the best way to do that? And also, you should plug. Plug the whitetail hunting, in case anybody's interested in that.

Yeah, yeah. And, dude, I'll say this. I think we could do a total. I was thinking about this earlier. When you're talking about whitetail, I think we could do a whole podcast on. On just debunking Texas. Because the more I've spent time up here, dude, the more I'm learning good and bad people have a lot of misconceptions about Texas, and there's a lot out there for people. I think it's, like I said, married to the whitetail game, but I'm, I'm kind of having a love affair with mule deer. There's a lot more to Texas than, than people I think really understand. And, and a lot of what I hear in Western mumblings is just flat wrong. So Texas stuff. We, we had like an Instagram page for a while. I don't really keep up with it a ton, but it's Kinsel Cattle company hunting. But you can probably keep up more with it just with me. And again, my name is Garrison Kinzel. I'm on, I think I'm on Facebook or I'm on. Yeah, I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. You know, Jaden can give you my cell phone. I, I like talking to guys, so don't, don't worry about reaching out, like, if you got any questions. You know, it's funny, I was thinking about this. There's a lot of guys that you'll get on podcasts that are Utah guys and, and Wyoming guys, and they live it and breathe it and stuff. I do have a little bit different perspective because I, I live, I live in Denver and I'm from Texas, and so I do kind of sympathize more with the guys who are coming out here for a week. They don't get to scout every weekend. They don't know all that because that's, that's where I've been until like, you know, the last two years when we moved up here. And even now I still live in a city. Yep. So, yeah, if you got any questions at all, I'm, I'm super happy to help people. So you could probably just get my cell phone from Jaden.

I appreciate that, man. Yeah, I'll, I'll give that thing out like candy. Yeah. Well, thanks again for hopping on. And that perspective is totally why I wanted to get you on, because it is helpful having the blend, right? Like, yeah, the, the non resident perspective and the resident perspective and the, you know, whether or not you travel, like, it's all just, you know, everyone's in a different place at different times. And it's super helpful to be able to meet people where they are instead of just be like, well, why didn't you scout 37 days this summer? You know, unrealistic.

Why didn't you kill this buck named Charlie that I've known since he was 3 years old? And I, you know, I just got him out my back door in Utah? I'm like, I, I don't have that. You know, it's a different perspective. I think the first time I reached out to you was actually because you were doing Mule Monday, and I was like, man, I need you to put. I need you to put Carl. Carl Blanchard.

Yeah.

I was like, I need you to put him back on, because he comes from, you know, Washington, thousand miles away every. Yeah, Washington comes down here to Colorado, kills big mule deer. But he's got that perspective that some of these other guys that scout it day in and day out don't.

Right.

And I was like, I need you to get him back on, because he's the one feeding me.

That's great, man. All right, well, it looks like I got to send Carl a text here pretty soon. We'll get him on.

Yeah, get him back on. See what he's up to.

All right.

All right.

Thanks, man.

Cool.

Thank you. Have a good one, man.

You too. Thank you for listening to the Hunt west podcast. If you like what you heard today, the best compliment you can give is to share the show with a friend. We will see you on the next episode, and we hope one day to see you Hunt West.