The Elk Hunting Playbook with Cody Rich

Not recording it. Okay, young Jaden, welcome to last podcast we do before the 2025 Elk season. That's crazy, dude.

That is crazy. I was just. You know, both of us have gone to Alaska now. Wait, we're recording, right?

Yeah.

Okay, good. I was like, both of us have gone to Alaska now, so, like, technically, hunting season started.

Yeah.

And now I'm kind of like, holy crap. Like, where did it go? You know, where did the offseason go? It didn't exist this year.

Yeah, like, already said this on the podcast, but, like, I had to leave because we were like, did this big family trip, and so I had to leave. I had to pack everything. So I. Long story short, was leaving from Oregon to go to Alaska, and so it was like, July 11th or something. I was like, oh, I have to, like, pack this weekend. No. Like, nothing's ready on July 11th.

No, no, no. You're, like, a month out, usually from even thinking about it.

Yeah, yeah.

And at the time we're recording this, like, antelope archery season's open. Do you have an antelope tag?

I do. I have a rifle tag.

Oh, you have a rifle tag.

Okay.

I've got one that's o. Like, it's in Wyoming, obviously. So archery season's open, and I'm just not even thinking about. Yeah, I. Like, there's too many elk and deer plants that are taking space in my brain. I haven't even considered it, but guys are killing pronghorn across the west now.

Barney killed. Barney killed one this weekend. Yeah, I've seen a number of them go down. Yeah, I do. So I got a rifle tag. I. Dude, it's like, I want to take Wade on hunts, you know? So, like, I've kind of just accepted the fact that, like, I'm going to turn an Montana antelope into a kid.

Your hunt with Wade?

Yeah, like, it's. He. I mean, he's. I wouldn't say it's tradition, but, like, you know, he's. He went. Last time on Attack, we killed one and, like, just had a good time. It was, like, such an easy hunt.

So. Yeah. So is that basically, like, you're just going to squeeze that in when you have a day or something? Or couple days.

Yeah. Like, when we get back from our hunt. I think it opens the 12th. I probably won't go until, like, I'm not gonna go opening weekend. I'll probably go.

Wait.

Yeah, Wait. And just like, dude, opening weekend can be kind of a gong show, so we'll go midweek or Something take two days.

Okay. I did. I just had a guy. I helped him on some hunt plans, and he was going out to hunt. It was a Utah general tag, and he was going out there, and he just got out there on Friday, haunted Saturday and Sunday, and left. He was like, dude, there's too many people running around. He's like, screw this. I don't want to be. And I was kind of thinking to myself, like, dude, of course. Like, that's just how. That's how hunts go. Like, the opening first two days always are a gong show.

Oh, totally.

But the oddball is archery elk hunting. Do you think archery elk hunting is on the show? Depends on the state.

Depends on the state. Montana, dude. I. I always go Montana, and I mean, they kind of. Montana swings quite a bit. I don't. I just try not to get. I think I treat it like an escalator. So, like, I try not to get in that mindset because I'll get there, too, and it'll be 90 degrees and it's gonna be, you know, hot. Nothing's talking. It's not elk hunting. And you're so excited for it. And it can be a kick in the nuts because you're like, oh, I'm so excited for hunting season. You're like, why am I here?

This is not.

This is antelope season still.

Like, yeah, it's like this. I should be doing something different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, it's a good time to go check cameras. Go. Like, just do stuff. But, like, I don't know. I. I've had good days. I don't. I try not to get. I try not to get wrapped around the axle about opening weekend because too many people do, and they do what that guy does. And so, like, don't be that guy. Don't be average Joe and be like, get there. This sucks. Go back. You know, And I think at the end of the day, like, if you are the kind of person that's like, well, I only have two weekends or, like, whatever. I wouldn't use opening. But if you can only hunt weekends all season, then. Then, yeah, like, go. Like. You just never know. Because I definitely got into screaming bulls on opening weekend before it's happened. Yeah. You know, called in a. I called in.

I cal.

Called in a 370 bull one time on opening weekend. It was actually like, Monday or Tuesday after opener. But still.

Still, like, handful of days.

Yeah, handful of days.

Right.

Elk were going nuts, and so it can happen. If you only have. If you can only hunt weekends, you Might as well. But just know what you're going to expect. Just be like, understand what's going to happen and you're going to get like get there and it's going to suck.

Yeah, dude, I'm excited. I've got a cow moose tag and some of the places I can hunt are where the 201 podcasts are.

Wait, are you. You have the tag?

Yeah, I have a c. Oh, I.

Thought you were taking someone at it.

No, no, I had the com.

You have a moose tag?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, dang, son.

But it's kind of funny cuz, like I feel obligated to give this moose tag some days, right? Like, and I'm out here like making. I'm like e scouting it so that I have other side quest opportunities. Like, like where have I seen elk in the past? Well, we're going to overlap that, you.

Know, are you going to be picky or is it like first moose about what kind of moose you want, what.

Kind of cowboys I want. So it's kind of goofy because you can't shoot one with a calf, which is. That's fine. But I don't know how you e scout for not shooting one with a calf. You just have to like, year to year you have to be like, well, I know they're in this area. Hopefully there's not a calf by the side.

What the biologist say?

I talked to him just the other day and he like, he's like, yeah, you got a good game plan? I was like, what do you think about fighting one without a calf? He's like, it's dumb luck.

Yeah, it's just a numbers game.

It's just a numbers game.

Yeah. It's like, look over as many cow calves as you can.

Yeah. And like one of my game plans is actually to hunt right where all of the bull moose hunters are going to be. Because then I can ask them if they've seen one without a calf and they might give me some tips because.

Like, what's the percentage here? Like what are we talking? What the biologist says, like 50% of them have cast. Yeah, 90.

Yeah, yeah, probably 50.

I would go to the wolf populated areas or the bear populated areas. Well, so any high beer area is not going to have 90%.

Well, that's what. There's no grizzly bears in this country, so. But. And then. Yeah, it actually is. I don't mind talking about this. So like on the Colorado border, dude, when I was there in 2019, they were talking about having wolves that were back and forth With Colorado. So, like, now there's more wolves in Colorado, and. And so maybe that's an option. That is a place we're looking at.

You're about to get famous by shooting a wolf with a collar. Yeah.

While I'm hunting with a bow. Dude, that would be great. Yeah. That'd be real Internet famous for a lot of the wrong reasons. I won't be. But anyway, so it's kind of fun because we're bringing it back full circle. We're going back to the origination of the 201, like, concept. Um, and I would love it if I could call in a bull for one of my buddies who's helped me out.

That'd be cool.

Like, it'd be. It'd be super fun.

Yeah.

But to the point I started that hunt, I hunted so hard. On opening day, I, like, hiked in three miles in the dark, and I was in just an absolute rut fest at first light, and I.

Opening day.

Opening day.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And I missed twice.

I was gonna say. I was gonna say. Is this the one where you missed twice?

Yeah, Yeah. I hit a tree branch the first time, and then I got all excited the second go round and didn't get a good range and then shot it.

Yeah, I remember.

And it was one of the best. But it was one of the best opening days I think I've ever seen.

That's six years ago.

Yeah, it was a long. It was a while ago now and a lot of hunts ago. And one of the things that I was just talking to one of my clients about was the fact it was so good. And then I get ready to, like. Like, it was about 10am or whatever, and, you know, I've got my tail between my legs because I just missed twice. And I was getting ready to go back, and as I'm heading back out of this basin after it's hot, like, all. They all can shut up. Whatever. I just had an epic morning of hunting, Epic morning of missing. And I run into two hunters as they're walking up to the basin because they left at daylight.

Okay.

And they were like, man, we heard one bugle this morning. Have you seen anything? And I was like, yeah. Seen a couple.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah. So just a couple. Seen a couple.

Basically the same thing. What? So, you know, that's a pretty good illustration of, like, the difference between 201 and the 101 level of elk hunting.

Right.

What are some of the other big differences that you think separate, like, the 201 person versus like the one on one person who's just out for a bow hike.

Okay. So, and actually this is going to tie well into what I had for notes for this conversation. So when we, I think the 101 originated in 2018 or 2019, somewhere around this like, whole conversation. And for anyone who's like, new to this, the 101-201-301 was like this designation of person that we, we talked about. Like the 101 hunter is the guy walking around in the woods hoping to get lucky. Like, he thinks the tree, there's an oak behind every tree and he just like stumbling around hoping he, hoping he gets lucky. And we always called like the 201 guy was the, the one that knew how to kill elk. He had a. Yeah, he had his way of doing things and like he could kill a six point or a branch bull every single year. And then we were always like, the 300 is like the Sean Mellon who's like targeting the top 1% of elk in the woods and like goes after that one bull, right? And so like it was just kind of A levels, you know, stealing of like levels of hunters that we talked about way back when. And like it's turned, it's morphed into this whole thing. Right? But you know, so the one on one guy, in my notes, I was listening to a podcast and I wrote down, don't be an average Joe. And, and I think it's really ties into like the one on one hunter is the average Joe. And in the podcast I was listening to, they were talking about like, you want to, if you want to be different. And this was talking about entrepreneurship and business and like just life. Right? But it's like you don't do the things everyone else is doing. Like, it's like very simple when you say it out loud of like, what is Average Joe doing? And how do I not do that? Average Joe goes out in the woods on, on opening weekend, sees a hundred different people, gets frustrated and leaves. Right? That's Average Joe. That's the one on one guy. Average Joe is like, oh, I don't know. Like, let's just leave, leave the tent about daylight, you know, And Average Joe's making breakfast when it's getting daylight and Average Joe is hiking in. And Average Joe's like, oh, I didn't hear anything, didn't see anything. And like, oh, let's head back for our nap, right? Like, that's what average Joe does. And like there's this like entire thing like, I, I don't Know if it's how accurate this is, but it's like 10% of elk hunters kill 90% elk, right? It's like, I think it stems from this concept that, like, only 10% of elk hunters are successful. And I think it probably is less. But, like, let's just say like 10% of hunters are in the tail one. So don't do what the 90% of hunters are doing. Like, don't be Average Joe. Like, how do you, how do you not be Average Joe? And it's like just those little things I think, day in and day out about minor decisions, you know, I don't know, even down to, like, I don't want to say, leaving a daylight. Like, a lot of guys can hunt. You know, I did, we were talking about that podcast I did where the guy was like, I'm just not. I haven't seen an elk all year or whatever. And he's hunting hard in the mornings, he's hunting hard in the evenings. But it's like, you know, it's just like what everyone's doing, right? Like, he's just not. You're hunting hard all day even, and it's like, still not seeing. He's like, well, Average Joe's not out all night. Average Joe's not like, you know, covering a hundred miles a day to find an elk. Like, those aren't Average Joe things. Like, and that's why average Joe fails 90% of the time when it comes to elk hunting. And so, like, when I think about this whole 101, 201, it's like, don't be average Joe. Be the 10%, right? You don't have to be a 301 guy. You don't have to kill 4 inch bulls or 300, 380 bulls. You don't have to pass 360 bulls. Like, that's, you know, we're just trying to be like, okay, 201, be a consistent out killer. Like, but you have to think outside of the box. I think that kind of gets into the next piece is like, if you don't want to be Average Joe, you have to think outside of the box. You have to do things a little bit differently. And I think a lot of people listen to this podcast, they want to be more successful. They want to, like, be a better elk and be consistent, right? Like, they don't want to be Average Joe. But then so many of these guys are doing Average Joe things or thinking like average Joe. They're going into areas and they're, you know, they're Locate viewing. All morning. They're, you know, just doing the kind of average Joe things. They're like trying to find elk and then running their hoochie mama or maybe it's even they're like reed or whatever. But it's like those are all Average Joe things. And so like, dude, I did this webinar for Onyx last week and it's very interesting. The more questions you get, the more like people you talk to. They're all the same things, right?

Like it's the same thing over and over again.

Same thing over and over and over and over and over. And it's like, you know, well, what elevation do you select? Elk? I don't know. I didn't even look at elevation to be honest with you.

All of them?

Yeah, yeah, all of them. Or even like, what vegetation are you targeting? I don't know. Didn't think about it. And it's like, and like I'm not looking at the same things. And like, I think people is a very basic example is like average Joe looks at the map and he's looking for water, food, elk habitat. Cody Rich looks at a map. I'm just looking for no people. And I'm trying to figure out where no people are. Because with enough time, elk will find no people and I will find elk. And like, so I have to look at the map differently. I can't look at like, what's the best habitat. It almost doesn't matter. Like I don't really care if it's north facing or west facing or whatever. It's like I'm trying to get away from people because that's where I tend to find these pockets of elk. Or like on a more macro scale, it's like, well, what's the number of elk? Or like cow to bull ratios in the unit? Don't care. Like, I'm almost like going away from everything you're looking at because I don't want to be average Joe. I'm trying to like be the opposite of average Joe.

Yeah.

Because I need to be more consistent. Like I don't need 10,000 elk, I need one. And so if 10,000 equal elk equals 10,000 people, I don't want 10,000 elk. Like, I don't like. Cool, go have them guys. Yeah, I, I just think I have to think outside of the box and I think that's what average Joe isn't doing. Average Joe is just doing all the. I don't say things you're supposed to do, but they're doing like the, or how do you say that? Not the things you're supposed to do.

But, like, they're just doing, like, average Joe things. Yeah, they're just doing, like, whatever the classic move is.

Right.

I had this guy hit me up. He was like, what do you think about this unit in Montana for my general tag?

Yeah.

He's like, there's 3,000 elk there. And I looked at it on the map, and I was like, there's 3,000 elk there, but there's five square miles of completely rotted terrain, like, where you can access and everything else is private. Like, why would.

Like, yeah, that's average Joe country.

That's average Joe country for sure. And he's like, there's. But there's so many elk. What do you think about backpack elk hunting? Is that an average Joe move?

Rifle or archery?

Archery.

It's funny because Aaron and I did a podcast, and it can be. It can't be. Like, I think there's. By and large, I'm against it. Like, it's not me. Like, it can. Will Aaron pull it off? For sure. Like, for sure Aaron will pull it off. I think there's ways to do it to get away from people. And I would say, like, you know, if I was hunting Wyoming General, I don't know, maybe I consider it, like, for sure. It's going to be like, I'm going to have it with me. Um, you know, you and I are kind of backpack hunting for rifle. Like, you kind of got to get away from people. I don't know. I almost, by and large, I'm against it.

Yeah, me too. I almost always. Like, I was just had a session with a guy this morning, and we were looking at his Colorado elk hunt, and there's one wilderness area that's only 10 miles wide, three miles deep.

Yeah.

And there's one set of trails that make a loop in this little thing. And I'm just like. He's like, I can backpack hunt. But he was. His question was, do you think it's even worth it here? I was like, no way. Like, maybe if you get up high and you do see an elk three miles back or whatever that you want to go chase. Sure. But like you said, it's in the truck. I can go get it.

Yeah.

But I'm not.

And the other thing about backpack hunting, like, I think it's easy to look at a Lampers or an Aaron or, like, some of these killers who can one stock kill any animal they want.

Yeah.

And they just. And I've said this before, but, like, there's a difference between that guy and Average Joe. Like, Average Joe looks at. Let's just say Aaron Sander. He looks at Aaron. He's like, oh, Aaron backpacked and he killed Nelk. I want to do that. Well, there's, like, there's. Let's separate the two things. You want to go backpacking? That's great. Go backpacking. You can do it in the offseason, but if you, like, you're not Aaron when it comes to stocking and, like, the just knowing the habits of the creature, getting close. Red zone operations. Like, Aaron gets in the red zone that. Oh, like, it's dead. Like, he's just killed enough things that it's dead. Average Joe gets in, like, he's going to screw up a lot of red zone opportunities. And the problem with backpack hunting, generally speaking, is that, like, they're fewer and far between. And so it's like, you're going to get one at bat, and you're going to swing, you're going to miss, and you're gonna be like, man, that sucks. And you're gonna get, like, a couple at bats. Now, you know, maybe if you scouted hard and you're like, you found a area where it's like, man, there's a lot of elk in here and no one's messing with them. Okay, maybe it's worth, you know, trying to live out of your backpack.

It's. It's.

Yeah, maybe it's so situational. That's what's really hard. Yeah, And I hate it because, like, all these things, like, the person who makes things look black and white usually is easier to follow. And so, yeah, you know, it's like, oh, just do this. And it's, like, easy to follow. I'm like, it's very black and white. It's hard to say it's situational, but I think I look at it kind of like, man, I heard this, like, career advice, and it's, I'm going to share this book with you. But off, off that it was the guy. I'm going to screw up the details. We were saying. When I got out of college, I got really good advice because I was like, what job do I want? And the guy, his mentor told him, you know, it's not about what job you want. It's like, what skill do you want to have that you could take to any job in the world? And then what job opportunity is going to give you that skill? Translate that to hunting. What skill do you want to have? Do you want to be the best Elk stalker in the world. Great. What hunt. What type of hunting is going to give you that skill? You want to be the best backpacker in the world? Great. What, like, go do backpack hunting. Like, pick a skill and get good at it. And, like, you know, do you want to be the best elk in the world? Then, like, great. Go. Like, how do you build your hunt around the skill and not necessarily the perceived success or lack of success. Like, get really good at something, Right?

Yeah. Dude. I just had this thought, like, the other day that either a. You have a tool in the toolbox and you need to be mobile enough, right. To deploy it. Let's say that one tool, or you need to have multiple tools in the toolbox, and that way you can deploy the right one for the situation.

Right. Which takes. Which takes time. Totally. Like, and I would. I would say, like, I'm a great example of that. Like, I had. I had a tool that worked really well when I grew up Roosevelt hunting. I could apply it and I would move to other states, and it worked. Like, I could call elk, right? And then I was like, oh, I want to learn all the tools. And I, like, I kind of sucked at most of the tools I still had my, like, go to. So I could still kill elk. But, like, I was trying to learn all the tools, right. Then it's like, you. You grow through that, and you're like, okay, now I have, like, two or three good tools, maybe four or five. Right. But, like, it takes a lot of time to get those. So, like, I very much am a fan of, like, go master one tool and then add tools to the toolbox. You know, that you're. You can start to work with.

Oh, that was going to be my question. It's like, would you. Would you. So if you're like a 2, 100, and you're trying to be consistent, you.

Say are a 2:1 owner. Like, you're consistently killing elk every year.

No, no. You're trying to get into that. You're trying to break that mold. You're Jaden in 2018.

Yeah.

Like, would you rather that person pick one tool and just run the game. Game plan over and over again in different places? Or do you, like, do you think that building multiple skill sets takes more time?

It does take more time. And you're going to, like, just. It's gonna be hard to recognize what's working and what's not working. Uh, hate to use the entrepreneur example, but remember, like, we used to always test things, and it was always, like, test everything. Yeah. Assume Nothing. Test everything. But I would always tell you that, like, you have to test one thing at a time. So if we like, say we go to email marketing, right? And we're like, let's test 50 things at the same time. Which one worked hard to tell. And, and so like in hunting, it's like, yeah. Yes. And. But like, at the same time, like, I think you can kind of build your hunts around to the point of like, do you want to call or do you want to spot and stock? Well, if you're going to call or like, say you're going to spot stock, it's got to be open country. So you got to get. Finding elk in open country, that's actually the skill. It's not sponsored, it's not glassing. Glassing's a skill. But like finding elk in open country, right? All this stems back to, like, you know, where you build your hunt really matters. So if you're like, I want to be a great elk caller. Well, you know, like, building your hunt around open country, Montana, probably not the best way to do it, right? And so like, you have to work backwards. And then the skill actually becomes being able to find elk in those places. But it's like, I literally got this DM today, guys. Like, hey, I don't want to call him out, but I'll read it. And I want to like, highlight the example here. Literally got this this morning. Hey, Preparing for my 2025. I have a few questions. Need some advice? The look, the location I am hunting is heavily timbered. Nowhere to glass in the unit. The elk tend to be call shy due to pressure. They also disappear into small groups and tend to not want to be challenged. They also don't call much, so locating is a huge challenge. What would your calling strategy be for this year?

Like, bro, there's no elk. Don't call here. So how would you call to them?

Well, yeah, but like the, the. I mean, my. For one, don't hunt there. Like, leave elk to find elk. Like, find better elk. I. It's kind of my first advice, but it goes back to like, well, what kind of caller do you want to be? And if you're going to be an elk caller, you got. You got to find the areas. The elk that are gonna. Not even just the elk, like, the areas are going to play the game, right?

It.

It's analogous to like, if you want to archery hunt. Good example. We just got back from Alaska. I want to archery hunt blacktail deer. Well, you have to choose terrain. You have to get good at E scouting terrain that's going to allow you to bow hunt versus rifle hunt.

Yeah, you're not, you're not archery hunting blacktails in timber cuts like where my brother shot his with his rifle.

Right. Like it's just not happening. And same with mule deer. Like you, you can kind of choose areas that are going to be like, oh, this is really good bow area. Because like it has enough micro terrain to give you the ability to stock. Think about antelope archery, right? Like hunting them in a field is a little bit difficult cuz like there's not micro terrain. But if you get off those and you have that micro terrain where you can stock antelope and get into 40 yards, like that's the perfect terrain. Well, good antelope hunters are good at finding that country. So like it all works together to be like, how do you find the, the area that's gonna work for you? And to like to go full circle back to. I wanna ask this guy's question. So I said gun to my head, I had to hunt them. So my a find new elk. Next part was gun in my head, I had to hunt them. I'm gonna do long calling sequences at night to find, to pinpoint their location. So it's like, obviously these elk aren't talking. I don't care about the daytime. They're probably not gonna talk in the daytime. I have to find them at night and then I'm gonna pinpoint where they are. I'm assuming he's on a Roosevelt. That's what it sounds like. If you're in Rockies and that's the situation, definitely go somewhere else. Yeah, right. Yeah. But if this is like for whatever reason, uh, you know, maybe it's Canada, maybe it's Roosevelt's. I don't know. I'd move in tight to like, so drop a pen at night, find locations and then I'm gonna move in tight and I'm gonna do really, really soft like cow calf sequences, stuff like that to try to like call that bull in silent. So again, I'm classic example is like I have to think outside of the box. What are these elk not seeing or like obviously hunting pressure is a big deal here, right? So everyone's calling mornings and evenings. They've learned to shut up. They're also probably not gon you call your way to them because they've learned that that's a human. So like I have to do things differently and I have to seem more like an elk than every other lure that's been thrown at them. So if everyone's throwing a lure, like, how do I change my setup so it looks different? And, like, that's kind of how I do it. I'm approaching it very differently. I'm thinking outside of the box. I'm doing things that other people aren't doing. And, like, I always look for those things on a hunt, no matter where I go.

Yeah. So even. Yeah. Even if they're not talking in the daytime, they're only talking at night. You're like, well, cool. I'm gonna be talking at night, too.

Yeah. Then I'll talk at night, too. And then, like, I like, obviously, they get cagey. Great. Like, we can play that game. I know where you are. I just have to get. I have to get very close and then try to coax you over a little bit again, you know, I would probably just leave those out, though.

Where do you think? Like, sitting wallows or. Yeah, basically just sitting wallows as a blanket statement fits into all of that. Because we oftentimes talk either spot and stock or we talk.

I hate sitting Wallace. My underwear get wet.

Don't sit in the wallet. Got it.

I mean, this might be a good example of that. Like, you know those places where if all other tactics are failing, then sure. Like, it's a. It could work.

I like this. This guy I was talking to. I like that his dad is on the trip. His dad's 76.

Yeah.

And he's perfect. Dad's gonna sit wallow. So.

Dude. Yeah, that's a great. That's a great answer. It's like, yeah, I've always had those. Like, I've had. I found the walls, and I think my sister and I were on a hunt one time, and I was like, oh, perfect. I'll just put her on a wall. I. I mean, I think sitting wallows.

Aren'T, like.

If you. If you were really good at sitting Wallace, and you're like, you hunted 10 days a year. I'm going to guess your hunting success rates is still sub 25%. What would you say?

I guess it depends on how well you know it. Right. If you're, like, rolling in out of state. I just don't think it's a guaranteed thing, I think. So this is all the guys that I knew who were killers growing up. Sat wallows, like, put tree stands up. But it's because usually they knew, like, man, if I sit here for five days in a row, a bull's gonna walk in.

I mean, it's. It's a skill. Like call spade a spade like it's a skill set, like, but it takes.

This is where I've always struggled with it. And let me back that up. I wounded a bowl off of a wallow a couple years ago. Cuz we came in and I was like, oh, they think there's elk around here. Like we heard a bugle at some point, but it was like there's nothing calling so we're just gonna sit here.

Yeah.

And he came in right at last light and I just made a bad shot. But besides that one opportunity, dude, it's. I've sat a lot of evenings on wallows and I've not had opportunities, you.

Know, like, so here's to play devil's advocate and this is going to depend on terrain. But I would say a lot of people tend to fall into wallows and water on the afternoons and evenings.

Correct. Like 100%. Right.

And so you're like, oh, there's nothing else going on, so I'm going to go set a wall. And I noticed this thing. This is like again outside of the box thinking I noticed this thing. This was two years ago. I was in an area there's probably. It was opening week, so a lot of people running around still and it was like everyone was running around and then they were like parked. They went in and I, I had that like everyone sitting a wallow vibe.

Yeah.

And I was like quiet. Yeah. It's like it was very quiet in the woods and people were like parked. But they like, it was funny cause they like run to their, like from their camp out to like wherever they park.

Bugle, bugle, bugle. Sit down. Yeah.

And this was evening time and I just drove around one evening and I drove around and I saw. I found three different herds of elk driving around from my truck road hunting. And it was like, oh, everyone else is sitting while. So like there's a downside to sitting wallow which is like you're not glassing, you're not seeing more country. And for me that's like, man, I, I would rather be running around trying to like get as many glassing point knobs as I can in the last lights or just look glassing one and be able to see. Because I almost learned nothing from a wall sitting a wall. And like this is like, I don't know if this is good.

That's right. No, I think that's right. Like you don't learn it because you don't learn anything. You are putting all your chips in.

Yeah, you're all in on this. Wa. Now granted, like if you're a, you know, let's call it a 201 guy and you're trying to. I don't know. I don't know if that's good advice or not for a 301 guy. 301 guy is almost never going to set a wallow because he's going to, like, I want to, like, stay back. Unless it's like this bull, you know, the top 1% is hitting this, this wallow. And I've done it. I've sat in a spot where I'm like, okay, maybe I'll get a chance at him.

But you probably also could see other stuff while sitting there, right?

Yeah.

Dual purpose.

Yeah. I would prioritize finding new elk over, like, taking the shot. I just. Man, it doesn't feel like those wallows are very successful. The wind's always shifty.

Yeah.

Like, it just. I don't know.

I like the idea of being able to sit. And I've. I've looked at some plans for guys this year, like where, like, oh, sweet. There's a spring probably, and I think there's waller right here. But you can sit 50 yards from it and look over this whole basin.

While you're also sitting there.

That's not bad. And that's a. Maybe a way to combo it. I won't wanna.

Best time of day for Wallace, honestly.

Okay.

My.

Based on my trail cameras, it's like mornings or middle of the night. Like, I mean, obviously you'll get an occasional one in the evening, but the other, like when they're cruising.

Yeah. And that's actually exactly what I would say. You know, based on trail cameras, I would say late morning is actually the best. And I would say, you know, if I had a spot where I was like, hey, let's go daylight. We're going to try to figure out where they are or whatever. If we're in the area and it's like almost 8 o' clock and like, ah, things kind of went awry. Let's just go sit at that wallow for two hours and see what happens. Soft Cal. Maybe if you're a 201 guy and you're like, hey, I just want to kill a branch full. Not a bad option. Not a bad option at all. Because a lot of times, you know, like, big herd goes through and then you kind of have the straggler satellites that are like, cruising around being dumb. And so it's like good opportunity between 8 and 10 that you like, just catch a rag 6 or something that cruising by, I Like that.

I like that a lot. Um, dude, it's funny you were mentioning like. And I, I'm just recalling all these things that you talked about and like had taught like me back, you know, a handful of years ago. And it was like I was driving around in the evening one time and bugling, just trying to get something so I knew what to do the next day. And it's like this thick, you know, south, like south region unit in Wyoming. And driving around, driving around and I glassed up these elk in this like 10 acre pocket and it's just like, oh, there they are.

Yeah.

So, yeah, covering country, it just keeps. And I oftentimes run into people who say, man, I. I drove by this spot and I saw an elk. How often? Like, and I think, dude, all the time we pound, we found this, like, we beat this drum. Like, get away from people. Get away from people. But how often do you think guys could be driving and finding elk? Like, because those two things seem to be in conflict.

They're definitely in conflict. And I always, like, I would argue that this is a bold statement. I would say diesel kills more elk than boot leather, but I don't know if that's entirely accurate. Like, it takes both.

It depends on the unit.

Yeah, it takes, it takes, it takes both for sure. But the concept that like, I think we're married to the romanticism of elk hunting sometimes of like being hardcore. I'm using air quotes here.

Yeah.

Like, oh, you know, getting after getting five miles in and like spotted a lot of 350 plus bulls from my druck, man. Like with the window mount.

Yeah.

And like, you know, sometimes they're five miles away. Felt like you're like, ooh, they're elk. There is elk. And I mean, I think of like this general Montana spot. I got like the best spot, the best. Only place they gloss this, the anything is from probably five miles away on the highway. And like, that's the best spot because you get up in there and you just can't see. You can't see everything. And now it's like you're better off to sit at the highway and like, figure out, you know, where they're at, what they're doing. It's almost like you're better off for two days to do that because these elk will move. I'm just thinking of this herding particular. Like, man, they move a lot and so it's like trying to figure em out. And it's one of those spots where it's always freaking windy so you can't hear anything. And it's like, you know, it's like you got to be back at the highway and it's five miles away and. And it's a full 45 to an hour. Drive around, maybe more. Gosh, it's probably more. You know, it's a. It's a pull to get back. It's not like driving because you got to drive all the way around the mountain and like, those are the type of situations where it's like, man, scoot back, figure it out and then get in there and then try to figure, you know, and then get close. Dial in, dial it in, dial it in. But like average Joe. Average Joe ain't be doing that. You know, Average Joe is like trying to, you know, oh, I got to hard. You know, you gotta keep hammering and like, you know, get up here, do this. And it's like, man, you gotta think outside of the box. Do something maybe different than you would want to do. Like, figure it out and then work your way in and like hone in on those elk.

So I know you haven't. It's not like you've drawn a ton of like high limited entry type hunts, but you've been on a handful.

Very like, handful might be a bold statement.

Handful's a bold statement.

Okay. I feel like you've been on more.

Yeah. Cause I gu. I get to guide him. Right. Like it's a. It's the freaking workaround for this poor drawing. Odd situation. Um, did. If someone who's like a one on one 201 hunter draws a limited entry elk hunt, do you think that they should do anything differently versus a high, high pressure? I struggled with this this morning, cuz, like this elk hunt that we were looking at 86 hunters, like 86 total people in the unit. And I was like, that's pretty. No, not you and me. This guy.

I was like, this is.

Yeah, yeah. 86.

I don't know. What's your answer? I feel you got more experience with fancy tags than I do. What's your answer?

I told them just, just like hunt it. Like it was the craziest pressured unit and. Because then you'll go from I like that easy rag horn hunting to like easy six point hunting. And then you're stretching for the next bowl level.

I do feel like the worst mistake you can make as a hunter is to. I think you gotta lay up. And I think a lot of these people get these tags, like take the top three in Oregon. Not layups.

Not layups at all.

Not layups.

At all. In a lot of ways, yeah.

And I think a lot of people go into those hunts and get kicked in the teeth when they, like. I don't even say physically. It's not even like a physical thing, because those are really demand. Like, taking those three hunts. Those are very demanding hunts. And. But also, like, still got to get away from people. So you got to do all the basics, the fundamentals, right?

Yeah.

So two fundamentals are the same. Fundamentals are the same. It's. I don't think you should look at any different. You should almost take that out of your head that there's only 86 tags that shouldn't matter. You know, where does it really. Where does that really come out in the difference? The only thing I would say is, like, less people trying to pressure elk. So a realistic scenario is like, I get on a bull, and if I'm in a general Montana unit, I gotta lay the pressure a little bit harder, Right. I can't be as patient because someone else might blow. It's Thursday night, and tomorrow someone's coming in and someone's gonna blow this thing up because, like, it's just too easy. And so, like, for. There's micro decisions you can change. But by and large, I think the fundamentals are the same. You need to, like, escout it the same. You need to hunt, plan it the same. You need to do all those things and I don't know, almost treat it harder. Because at the end of the day, like, you only get this one every 20 years, so you might as well, you know, Gall. I better ball out. Yeah, you better, like, treat it like it's, you know, everything. And I think too many people do the opposite. Like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be this great hunt. And if it is great, like, dude, stroll in there and opening day, you shoot a 360 bull. Hells, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, sweet. You.

You put in a bunch of preparation and you didn't have to use it. Like, yeah, it's no big deal.

I'd rather have that than the. To get kicked in the teeth and be like, man, I don't know, like, where to go now. Like this, you know, Like, I just. I see too many of those stories. You see too many people roll into a hunt, think it's going to be easy get kicked in the teeth, and then they walk away with nothing, man.

And that's tough, it feels like. And also, there's that because it takes so many years, everyone just expects that it's going to be something special. But everyone also forgets that every time that it's a limited quotas, whatever, usually there's a shit pile of cow hunters or spike hunters. Yes.

And that's. Yeah, that's the thing people forget.

I don't know of any. I don't know of any place. Like even Montana. All of Montana's best units, like the top, top stuff.

Yeah. Take three, for example.

Yeah.

Still spike hunters.

Spike hunters in general. Cow hunters.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

They're still getting pressure. I mean, like, they still. They're still elk. They're still hard. You know, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think you're going to be a lot easier.

Yeah, no, that's.

You're just better off to prep, like, for the worst case scenario.

Yeah. I just did this solo podcast where I basically just ranted the whole time about the fact that, like, the only thing that you can prepare for is the fact that everything's going south.

Yeah.

Like. Like that's the only option.

And when you get into that mindset, though, it's like, that's. That's the huge, I don't know, strategic advantage is like, I'm gonna go into a hunt. Like, let's take our hunt. Right. Like, we're gonna get kicked in the teeth. We don't know what it is yet, but it's going to happen.

Yeah.

And it's going to be like, we're like, here it is. That's what it was, you know? And like, I think there's a lot of people who go into those hunts and they're like, just. I mean, if you don't know, you don't know. And it's tough because you. Some of these guys are traveling very, very far. Like, they've never been out west before. And I like going this big Colorado, Wyoming, interstate hunt. And it's like, oh, it's not going to plan. Like, I'm like, I don't know if people tell themselves they're gonna fail, but they're like, I knew it. Right. Like, they start.

It's their excuse.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They start writing the story before it's over. And they're like, well, I didn't, you know, like, they're hiking around. I didn't kill. Because this, this, and this happened. Right. It's like, don't write the excuse yet. Like, it's not over. And I mean, you and I just been kicked in the teeth enough to know that. Yeah, that's what happens.

But it's not always people too. It's like wildfire or a snowstorm or grizzly bear tears up your tent, like.

So that one doesn't happen.

Yeah, I know. That was the last one that I was just thinking about, like, oh, yeah, we should bring two tents just in case.

Yeah, like, all these things, right? And it's always something little. So David, you know, he just. David and Travis are on their way back right now. They killed a couple of caribou. And, like, day one, David snapped both his trekking poles, and I was just like, you know, like. And, like, it was, like, giant lift to, like, get these up this mountain, and it's like, scree fields. No, trekking poles was pain in the butt. I was like, something simple. Right. You know, it's like, there's not a stick for 100 miles.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So can't use a walking staff. Yeah, yeah.

It's just like. It's those little things that you're like, oh, that's gonna punch you in the mouth.

That'll happen. It just happens. So right now, it's not really elk country, but, like, there's a giant fire in central Wyoming that just blew up, and it reminded me, like, oh.

Oh, yeah.

You got to have contingencies. What? You've had a lot of experience with wildfires. What. What are some of the contingencies? Like, if a fire breaks out somewhere where you're planning to hunt, like, what do you do? What do you do?

Yeah. So this happened to me a couple of years ago. Big fire burned up my trail cameras, burned up kind of one of my main spots and was like, oh, that's fun. And it's. I think I look at it. If I went back and looked. Looked at it. Okay. How did you handle it? I handle it very similar to, like, what happens when you get hunting pressure. Right. Like, okay, like, this spots out. Like, I'm constantly thinking, if this, then what. Right. Like, so, okay, big fire. What does that mean? What are they all going? What are they doing differently? Like, whatever. Are they still using it? And the. It seems like. I mean, those elk usually push out, and then they'll push back. It kind of depends on when it is. Right. Or how hot the fire. There's a lot of variables, but generally speaking, like, four or five years ago, six years ago, I had a fire come through a spot, and, dude, the elk just, like, went out for a week or two, came right back, and they were, like, in the burn. Like, black burn. They're in it, and I was like, they're just going through it. It was just their routine. I was like, well, that didn't change anything.

Great.

But, you know, a couple years ago, they had shut down every road. And that was usually.

That's actually the bigger problem is not getting access.

Not getting access to it. A lot of times those local come right back into it if that's what they're. You know, as long as they're, like, not too disturbed. But like, the. The road access can be huge. I know dudes that are like, man, my whole area, like, they shut it down, they wouldn't open it back up. That's when you're like, oh, I need other contingencies. Like, now we have to, like, full on, have plan B. And this is why having multiple hunt plans is so important. Is like, okay, where else can we go? And I. I think I'm just good at having way too many plans to even hunt. So for me, it's like, all right, cool, we're going somewhere else. So I'll tend to a. The short answer is A, I try to keep hunting it still. Like, that's. That's where I'm gonna go. I try to just figure out what it did to the elk and why, you know, are they still back there? Did they move? Like, what, What. What happened? And then, you know, if it is, like, worst case scenario, like, roads are closed, all that jazz, then it's like, okay, where's my plan B? Where are we going? Like, let's just pick up, go 100 miles, like, if we have to.

That makes sense. So how often are you, like, dropping pins and you, like, never get to the pin, either A, because you have other plans, or B, because you run into something more interesting on the way.

God, dude. So many times. Yeah, I'll escalate. I mean, you kind of know how you scout. And so I'll have all of this hunt plans. Many times it's sub 50 that gets executed, but it's like a new 50. They're like, you know, new intel, new data. Like, here we go. Like, like, we take our hunt, right? We have grandiose plans. A, we may only hit one of those. I don't know. Was there like five or six different.

Plus spots we had that we have mapped out?

Yeah, we have mapped out.

I walked in today and I was like, hey, so this mountain range looks pretty sick too.

That's a great spot. Because, like, we probably should like, have some, like, very different contingencies, right?

Like, it's not just like a fire breaks out. That's a great example.

Great example of, like, a fire could easily Wrap up all of your plans. Like, you can have it play in A through F. And like, they all get eaten up by a fire if they're all on the same mountain, Right? Like, some of these fires are big. So. But to answer your question, I was like, we may only hit one, but we find out new variables. Like, oh, man, we got to that first classing spot and we saw elk here, here, and here, and the whole thing went out the window. So I'm never married to a plan at all. Like, if, you know the. For whatever reason we see elk over there, we're like, let's go over there. And like, it just. It leads you down a rabbit hole. That's totally common. Sometimes I go through all the plans, right? And it's like, man, we executed everything, didn't find anything. We bounced out of there in three days. I thought I had enough for two weeks of hunting. Executed it in three days. That happens too. So you can never be too married to your plan. But I think having lots of plans, lots of options is really crucial. Um, and I. I mean, you know this. Like, I tell people, think bigger because most of most people we see and, like, they'll come to us and say, like, oh, check out my scout plans. I'm like, dude, I could do that in a day or two. It's just not big enough. You know, you're not thinking big enough. So it's like, having a scale of plans is really important. Having multiple mountain ranges is kind of important. May not go there, but, like, you.

Know, have a backup.

Having a backup is important.

And even if you draw it, like, what I end up have talked to people is like, if they draw a tag that is good for one unit.

Yeah.

I'm like, okay, well, whether you get a snowstorm that shuts you down or fire or whatever, I always, like, also just look at low country because I think, yeah, it's like, that's your other option. I don't care how many elk are down there. Like, if that's your only option, that's your only option.

Yeah, if. Yeah. If it boils down to, like, we can only just one elk, we're going to do it. That sucker is going to get found.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I have been doing a lot of talking to guys about gear. Do you think that there's a major gear difference between 101 and 201 or even 301 for that matter?

Like, the type of gear or just.

A. Yeah, just like their. Their setup. Like, them. I don't know, the gear, like, the amount of it, the quality, the quantity. Like.

I think like, gear's one of those things that takes a long time to dial in. Generally speaking, I think 100, 101 guys tend to just nerd out about gear because it's the one thing they can control in a world of uncontrollables. And there's like two things. Like 301 guys, generally speaking have their gear dialed like over 20 year span. And for the most part they. Some do, but most don't care about like, oh, new gear, new thing, whatever.

Like, you might pick up a new thing once, one new thing every year or something.

But like, and I think most of it stems from like, what are the things I can control in the world of like, I don't know what's going on. Right. Like, oh, gear is something I control, which if it gives you a sense of confidence, sure. And like, I don't know, there's little things I like, pick up new gear pieces along the way. Like, even this year it's been like, oh, I want to switch that out. Or like, oh, hey Craig, what are you using for that? I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like, I may. I'll switch that out. So I don't think it. Big picture doesn't matter.

Big picture doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter. Little picture is like, you know, if it makes you feel more confident, great. You know it. And I think confidence is huge. So I can't under undercut gear and without undercutting confidence. And so like, I do think that, like, having your gear dialed adds a confidence layer, which I think is one of the most important. So I can sit here and say gear doesn't matter, but confidence does. Well, those two can be tied and to many people they are. And so for me it's like, man, feel confident in your gear. Just know that it's like it's never going to be dialed. You're always going to be like tweaking things and if that's cool to you, fun to you, and everyone's different. Right. Like, I don't, I don't know, worry about gear much. Like, got my tags, got my gun, good to go. But like, if you are the type person, great. Like, that's an enjoyable aspect. So I don't really, I don't want to poo poo it, but I just.

Did this podcast with Gabe Cole and he talks about how he hunts in blue jeans so much now. Yeah, because it became obvious to him that like, people just like you said, have, that have that crutch, right. They're like, well. And then he's like, well, if you know what to do in a situation, it doesn't matter what you're wearing.

Yeah, I mean, like, it doesn't.

But, like, I also want that little bit of advantages they give you. Totally not going to say, like, if someone gave me a. A better shooting bow, I'm not gonna be like, no, I don't need that. I'll stick with this, you know?

Yeah. You know, like, have you ever. Have you ever vented your pants?

Like, we were just talking about this. I mean, like, to the.

The guy. Like the guy who wears blue jeans. Like, I mean, whatever floats your boats can't get done. Yeah, I could. I could kill elk and whatever. Jeans doesn't really matter. But like, man, there's nothing better than just like, unzipping the side of your pants and letting some heat out. You're like, oh, fancy.

I never invented.

That was a genius. Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny how that's like, such a trend because now it's like every pant that new or that companies come out with this vents, and I'm like, oh, yeah.

Like, yeah, now it's back forever commodity. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah. I don't know, like a lot of these things. Could you do it?

Sure.

I don't know.

Like, so the other thing that is in the gear realm that we've always told hunters, elk hunters in particular, is you just need binos on your chest. Like, don't worry about a big, spotty scope and whatever else. Tripod even. Would you change that now? Would you say every elk hunter?

Dude, I've had, like, the weird piece of gear. I've always. I've always had a tripod. I think you could get away with no spotter, but you gotta have a tripod. I don't know. Like, that's a weird thing I do. From the beginning. From the beginning, dude, Someone was just.

Crapping on it the other day. They're like, well, my pack's gonna be heavy because I gotta add the tripod, blah, blah. And I was like, right. So that.

That's the one thing if you're gonna.

Be packing £250 of elk meat out.

Like, oh, I will say, like, try to go light. I try to go light and fast. But I don't know if I'd ever hear a tripod. That seems like a bold thing. I will, like, maybe get rid of a spotter. Like, if you're a tool, like, you just want to kill A branch out bull. I don't think you need a spotter.

Yeah.

You see elk from a long ways away with a good pair of binos, I think.

How far do you think you can see an elk with just your binos on a tripod or window mount?

Like 12 by 50s or like we.

Go, they're 10 by 42. It's just whatever's on your chest. Normally.

I would say conservatively, six miles.

Yeah. Those big yellow school buses light up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I bet like I might get for this. I. You might be like eight miles. I don't know for sure. Six, I would say. Wouldn't you say they made like little ants running around and you're not gonna.

Be, you're not gonna be like watching them in the dark timber.

Right, right. But like you're gonna see a herd. I just imagine a herd of elk out on a knob and you're like, oh, that's definitely elk.

Yep, there they are. Yeah.

Yeah.

Last year I had my, my longest spot with my binos ever. And I'm. I'm trying to stall here because I'm mapping it on, but I saw them and now granted they skyline themselves. So I was like, oh, what's that up on the skyline? And I was watching them in my binos on a tripod.

Yeah.

And it was. They were 6.9.

Yeah.

And I was like, damn, they're far.

So I wasn't that far off.

No, no. See, I mean like I think you can go eight if the right conditions.

Yeah. That's funny.

I was like, oh, those look like elk. Sure is not.

I've got a few of those scenarios where you're like, there's definitely elk there. And like you'll see. Like you could just tell the bull like chasing.

Yeah. Just by behavior.

Yeah, there's definitely a bull in there. Like no, I can't even see ant.

But yeah.

Yeah. But I would say most of your elk you're gonna find three miles.

Three? Yeah.

Yeah. Two. Three miles is.

I think that's pretty solid. When, when you started hunting, what do you think was the number one skill that you feel like you mastered or wish you would have mastered sooner?

When I started hunting like elk.

Yeah.

I started hunting elk when I was 9 years old and getting over deadfall was a giant.

Was that. It still is for me.

Being quiet. I got hit. So like not. Dude, that was my number one skill. I could walk through the woods and never break a break a. Yeah. Mainly cuz I would get smacked in the head if I did But I don't know that that matters. Just, you know, as a kid, it's funny, like, you go through evolution of like, you know, just following data round and then like number one skill was calling. But that was a different era. Maybe it's the same, but like getting really good at calling, like, was significant. Getting good at calling taught me elk behavior. It taught me how to get close to elk. It taught me how to move in elk. Like they were like they're compounding skills that I would say, like, are the most important. And then hunting new states taught me how to find elk in places I'd never been before, which is like, you know, that's a great skill. And then, you know, that taught me open country hunting, which was like the number one skill is predicting elk behavior. You know, comes with predicting wind. Like, those are all like, if I had to lay out the skills, like, you know, being sneaky in the woods when you're whatever nine years old is great, but it doesn't help you find out. Yeah. And then calling elk helps you get close to elk. And then being close to elk is like this whole other skill. And like reading elk elk behavior, like that's a whole. That's a real skill. And then, you know, it evolves into like predicting the wind. It evolves into like predicting elk movement. Right. Like, so open country, predicting your elk behavior, like where they're gonna go is probably the most important. Like it. Anyone can sneak up on a bedded elk when you're like 300 yards away and you got to get to 30. Like, it's not an overly difficult thing to do. It's like it's predicting where they're gonna be to get there. Right. And getting win. Right. Those are really. And like the whole predicting or being able. The skill of finding elk I think is like, if you really want to be the best elk hunter in the world, be able to find out because like, let's take the 301 guy who's gonna find the 1%? Like to find the 1% of elk, you have to just find all the elk. It's a numbers game back to your moose hunt. Like it. You look at, I don't know, like, you know, Ryan Carter helped Jimmy Jones guy. And what Ryan's really like to find a 450 inch ball. I don't, I don't know what that's called, but like, whatever it is. So to find the 450 inch bull in the needle in the haystack, you just have to find a lot of needles Right. Like, it's not that you're like this. I'm gonna predict where this 450 inch bull lives. Like, no, you have to go comb through every single one and then you have to be able to predict what he's gonna do and like stay on him.

Like.

And so like when you really look at those 301 level skills that like, you know, Ryan Carter is a great big bull guy. He can, he just has all those combined skills. And so when you think about like, oh, what's the elk hunter? You want to be like, well, you have to be able to really get a finding elk. That's a huge skill, predicting elk, right? Like, you have to get like the almost easiest one is like the red zone, which is still a great skill. And you have to understand it, especially for Archer guys. Most guys, like, that's the at bats we talk about all the time. It's like, you, dude, you got to get really good at just being around elk, know what they're doing. I did a podcast with Eric from Hussian and we were kind of talking about just like what it's, you know, what's, what's going through your head when you're in tight with a herd of elk. And you know, I'm watching these cows, I'm trying to figure out like a, like, are they alert? Are they not alert, how alert? You know, like there's levels to that game, right? And like, I still think that Casey Brooks is probably one of the best elk hunters. Like this whole, like being around great elk, there's a whole other level of like being around 400 inch bulls, right? You have to like, you have that high pressure stakes that any champion of any sport, like take Michael Jordan, LeBron James, what do you want to do? Like to be able to operate and be able to be in sync with everything that's going around. When it's that high pressure, right? You're like, oh man, the 400 inch bullshit. Here's my opportunity. I think some people understand this because like they get around a big bowl, call it a 320 bull, and it's like, oh, you know, like they get, they seize up, they make some bad decisions to be so good at your skill that you can do it when there's a 400 inch bull, like, I don't have that. Yeah, I'm still gonna like shit the bed sometimes, right? And like, so like all these skills combined, like you put them together and then you get the man in the arena enough times, like you get enough at bats. You're like, this is my zone. Like, here I am. Like, you put me around a 320 bull. I just don't, I don't. I almost get more hyper focused on like everything around me. Like, I just don't care about that bowl. And so it's like I can, I have the ability to like watch cows, watch calves, like move through herd, take risks that I'm not, you know, Yeah, I just moved this. That elk was in plain sight. Like, that was, you know, but I needed it to make that call. Like all these micro decisions that are going on with, like using air quotes, you're moving through elk. Like, that takes it's skill. It's a, you know, you have to train, you have to like work. You have to be around elk a lot. So I don't know if that answer your question about skills, but like a very elaborate way of saying there's like, there's levels, right? There's levels to everything.

Do you think, do you think that because you talk about, you preach at bats all the time and it's kind of like the consistent thread that you consistently talk about, do you think that at bats is kind of the solution to getting into these different levels? There's. Yeah, there's not really a shortcut other than spend time in elk country and around elk.

There is, but it's not the only thing. Like, you have to be intelligent about how you think about these things, right? Like, and, and maybe this is true, maybe this isn't. But like, if you were to look, you know, I don't know, take another great elk hunter, Dan Evans, right? Like, Dan Evans is probably really, I don't know him but that well. But like, he's really great at killing elk, right? Like, he knows he's got a lot of at bats. Nothing's gonna replace the at bats. But also like, you have to be aware of all the things that are going on too. Or like, you have to learn, the quicker you can learn. Like, people listening to this podcast are probably trying to improve all of these skills. But if you never heard me talk about those skills, you may not. Like, you may spend 10 years just trying to, I don't know, become better elk hunter. But like, what part, what part are you becoming better at? Like, you're not focusing and so you're not training. You're not thinking of it like an athlete. Like an athlete's like, okay, I don't know, like, I'm trying to improve this one specific piece of my game. Like, be a better baseball player. We use a lot of baseball analogies. Like, be a better baseball player.

Okay, what part?

What part? Yeah, yeah. Like. Like, so, like, oh, I want to be better at this. And so I think about that, too, is, like, when I go into elk season, like, oh, what are the. What are. Like, the things I want to do. What. What do I want to get more at?

Bats?

At being around elk, moving through a herd. Like, those are great skills. To me, that's more important, right? You want to be better at calling in raghorns. I don't, but, like, if that's your thing, then go for it. Like, you can become a master at calling in raghorns. And I think, like, you focus on that skill and you get enough at bats. Like, you get good at that. Like, I did that. Like, I feel like there was a time in my life where I became a master calling raghorns. Uh, and so, like, all of them. Like, if you're. If you understand what you're trying to get better at, you it's easier to improve it. It's easier to recognize. It's easier to say, like, okay, like, there's what I did wrong. There's what? Like, let's analyze it. I don't think enough people are, like, doing after action review, right? Like, we go into a hunt and we get close. It's like, oh, that was epic, bro. Like, yeah, shit fell apart and I missed twice.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's like, okay, what went wrong? Like, what could we have done better? Like, how do we, like, improve? Like, so I don't know. Maybe I'm a psycho, but I look at elk hunting as, like, you know, how do we keep improving these things? I'm not. I'm not trying to be the best in the world. For the record. Absolutely not. Will never be. Don't care. I still want to enjoy it. And I think, like, I've walked this line of, like, I think there are people who want to be the best elk hunter in the world, and that's great. That's your thing. Like, so you have to balance this with, like, this enjoyable experience of the thing I love. Don't think. Don't screw that up. And so, like, there's a. There's a fine line to walk between, you know, improvement versus being the best in the world. I saw this really funny meme the other day and actually sent it to Kelsey because my son is closely becoming this. But it's like, at this type A, type B person, and. And the type A person's like, go, go, go, and Type B person was like, it's okay to stop and smell the flowers sometimes, and then, like, it shows. Type A, like, smelling of flowers and then, like, smelling all the flowers and then, like, holding a trophy. Like, champion flower smeller. It's like, yeah, like, don't. Don't be type A. Like. Like, you don't have to take everything to the nth degree. So, like, that's.

But it is fun if you're wired that way to then realize, like, hunting is one of the things that you'll never win.

Yeah.

Right. You never finish.

Right. But yeah.

Yeah.

100. Like an archery. Like, archery. Elk hunting for sure is like, one of those things where you're just like, you'll never master. It's fun to improve. It's fun to tweak, but, like, you probably know, like, to be the greatest. I don't know. I don't even know what that means.

Yeah. It was so fun in Alaska. We had kept having these conversations about, like, I just kept wanting to go to the alpine and glass.

Yeah.

Because that's all I'm. That's, like, my thing. That's my bread and butter, dude.

Was your guys's blacktail hunt? Because mine was a miniature mule deer hunt. Through and through. Like, that's all it was. Was yours that way. Well, okay.

When it wasn't raining, which was to a day and a half.

Out of how many?

Eight.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we got three days. We got 3.5, but it was more like 3.2. Five out of 10.

Yeah.

So you had the.

Yeah. You had, like, right when I left. I think the next day or whatever was better.

You.

You got that one. But it was such a good reminder. It was like, okay, great. You have your playbook that you want to run, but you can't do that right now.

Right.

You just. It's impossible. There is fog. You cannot. Glass.

Yeah.

Like. Yeah. Which was super visibility.

10Ft.

It was a good reminder. Yeah, exactly. It was a good reminder. And I oftentimes are just, like, freaking hate when you have to stormtrooper around and, like, just kind of run into stuff and, like, glass, like, as far as, you know, 50, 60, 100 yards. But that's how my brother killed his buck. And I was like, God dang it. Like, I know. I'm not. This is not the only recipe for success.

Yeah. But that was a good example. Like, we. I don't want to say did the opposite, but, I mean, we just didn't have visibility. Like, I don't. Maybe there's a Couple times we could have stormtrooper around.

Well, we were also rifle hunting. You were archery hunting?

Yeah.

And stormtrooping around. Archery is just not gonna work. Yeah, it's not gonna work.

But it was like, okay. Like, you're. You could see the window coming. Like, okay, weather's gonna be good on Tuesday. Like, we just gotta hit it hard. Like, just go hard on Tuesday and, like, take it to advantage. But it was also, you know, like, you know, that day, it's like, man, this is probably the last day. Like, gotta make a count, you know, like, make this. Make this stock count.

Yep, yep. For sure. Okay, so to wrap all this up into, like. Yeah. In a pretty bow, what's the one assignment that you want to give a hunter who's trying to go from average jail 101 to the 201 level? The one assignment you want to give them for this September?

Just like, one assignment.

And I mean, it doesn't have to be like, go sit wallows. Like, obviously more like bigger picture.

I'm trying to think bigger picture of, like, I would just say pick a skill and focus on it. Like, yeah, like that. Like, not even more than get at bats. Like, it just pick a skill you want to be great at and try to, like, create that. Manifest it, if you will be like, I wanna. I want this experience. And like, even if it's like that, because I think that's a good balance of, like, trying to be a better Elk Hunter vs enjoy the elk hunting. Dude, elk hunting is pretty so special. And like, the older I get, the more I'm like, dude, September's here. Like, it makes me giggle, you know, audibly. And it's like, what experience do you want out of it? And go manifest that. Make it happen. I don't. That. That's too. Woo. Woo. But, like, that's. That's my answer.

I like that. Yeah. Because I think everybody, we talked about this three months ago, but I keep running into folks and I do it myself. Of like, you have so many options.

Yeah.

What do we do with all these options?

Right?

It's like, just freaking pick one.

Yeah. And maybe like, the best place to do that is just to say, like, what is the experience? You want this? Like, what are like three experiences? You want this hunting season and then how do you make those happen? Yeah. And it's like, get yourself in that scenario. Like, you want to call on an elk, go do it. Like, you know, like, I want to call in a bull and I want him to scream. Like, I want that. Whatever. Like, okay, how do we. How do we manifest that or how we like our actions? How can our actions make that a possibility?

Yeah, I know it's different than elk, but I have, like, I have run a playbook in low country deer hunting that has worked six years in a row. Yeah. This year I have zero low country deer hunts. On the.

On the. Do you feel like, is he by design, Is that like your version of my me calling in rag horns?

Yeah, it's like, I know how to do this and, like, I can go, like, do the same thing and get one, but I want to do something different.

So how are you going to push.

Yourself for deer, dude? Only timber hunts. Oh, only timber hunts.

Is that because you, like, what's the skill you want to acquire?

I want to be able to hunt deer in thick country, like, in thick stuff. And obviously I'm going to go to places where I can glass, but it is all, like, you know, glassing and then figuring out how to get something killed when you can't see it the whole time. Like, that's. It's a different thing. And especially because as you see, like, trends and this. I'll loop it back, I promise. If you see trends in. In deer hunting, you see so many people who just know how to do. They're like, people are picking up how to glass. I'm still teaching. I'm. Heck, I'm probably part of the problem. Like, I'm going to teach people, like, how to glass and find stuff.

Stuff.

But the more people that, like, do that and learn that skill, they're not teaching themselves how to pound timber. They're not teaching themselves how to, like, still hunt.

The pendulum be. Always. Be swinging. Yeah, like, I'm always looking at that too. It's like, okay, like, as the pendulum swings, like, you get kind of ultra crowded on, like, one thing. And like, okay, what always opens the door? Where's the door?

Yeah.

So I want to. When you were saying, like, what an experience. I asked you that, I had this, like, you. You were talking about timber and stocking, and I was like, I do want to stock a bull in the timber, but I want to go, like, I have this experience that I want to get, like, full on. Last the Mohicans. I don't know if I'll be running and chasing this elk, but, like, you know, elk in the timber with a muzzle loader would be, like, an epic, like, yes. Experience I need to, like, figure out. But I've always wanted to track elk. And, like, I did that podcast years ago with Todd Orr. And we talked about tracking elk.

Yeah, dude, I. I remember that podcast vividly. It was one of the best. It was one of the best you've ever done.

I know. No one does that. I want to get like, that's like, that's next.

And he's out there with a handgun.

Dude.

In rifle season. Yeah. Oh, what a gangster. Yeah. But then the number one thing that I always come back to is like, okay, how long did it take for me to develop my open country skills for a deer? Or, you know, how long did it take to develop a calling strategy for elk? And I'm like, boy, this is a long road. It's gonna be a long road.

I know. I really love at lake seasonal cunning, too. Not. I mean, kind of what were you and I were gonna do? But, like, just late season rifle finding those needles in the haystack. I love. I've grown to love that. And so it's like, it's really hard for me to get away from, like, that. Plus add like, I don't know, some kind of, like, late season timber hunt. Yeah. And I keep saying I'm gonna do it, like, just with the cow.

Elk.

I just want to, like, go stock and elk. I don't know, it's lever action or muzzleloader, but, like, I want to just.

Yeah, that's gonna be sweet. I just was. I don't know how accurate this is, but I was just reading about and watching a podcast about this. Falls kind of like what they expect for temperatures and moisture and stuff. And this fall, it, like, replicates almost identical patterns to 2019. 2019 was when you and I were in a wall tent on October 9th, and it was negative 11 years. Like, negative 11.

Right.

So I was thinking.

Oh, yeah, dude.

Craig out of Maven was there.

Yeah. That was a brutal. Huh? I forgot that was October. That was early October, huh?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was like the. Barely the second week of October, it was so cold, and we're like, setting up for the exact same patterns. So now that you mentioned that, I'm.

Like, dude, we might scout some low country stuff, right?

We might have to pound timber when we're thinking that the elk are going to be at the top.

Yeah. It's a good. I do. It's such a good reminder to, like, you know, change your frame of, like, what season could look like because, like, you, like, I don't know, you're e Scouting, it's the middle of summer, and you're like, you're thinking of these, like, early October hunts You're like, oh, it's going to be so nice and like, whatever. Yeah, Solid chance. It's negative 11.

Yeah. Or colder. Like, we were in antelope country and it was negative 11. Dude, that was gnarly.

Not good.

I'm excited, man. And it's kind of crazy. Like, you and I haven't hunted together since then.

Really? Yeah, it's been a long time.

So we've come full circle.

How many elk hunting podcasts have we done? We've never elk hunted together.

Yeah, I don't know how many, but it's a lot. I'm excited. I'm really excited. And it's kind of cool. It's wild. We just went through a full climate circle before we've hunted again.

Yeah, that's ominous.

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to keep people posted as to how it goes, because it is going to be a 301 hunt. And, like, we're gonna send it.

Is he gonna be 301 and a 201? I don't know.

We'll see.

Are you gonna be 301? Are you gonna be a 201?

It's gonna take something pretty interesting for me to want to pack it out of there.

Oh, yeah. I guess it depends on weather, too, and like everything else.

Yeah, yeah, we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I know we're hunting 301 for your bull tag and you're 301 deer, honey. I'm probably 301.

301 hopeful.

Three one hopeful. So, yeah, I'm excited, man. I'm looking forward to it more than any other this year.

Next time we do a podcast together will probably be a wrap up of that. Unless we do one in September before.

Probably wrap up. Probably wrap up. Like, think about how crazy September is.

Yes, September's crazy.

Okay, well, we've drugged this thing on long enough. That's the pod.

Peace out, rabbit.