The Red Zone: Getting Close to Big Bulls with Jeffery Row

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All right, Jeff, welcome. I'm so stoked we can make this happen, man. I know you got chaotic life and like during. I feel like during season like you, you spent a lot of time outside, so you got newborn baby. So you got a ton going on. But stoked to have you, man. Thanks for coming on.

Oh, I appreciate it, man. Thanks for the invite.

And we can always talk about big bowls. So.

Dude. Oh, yeah, you.

For those who don't know you, let's get like 30, 000 foot view. You spent a pile of time in the woods and you have for a very long time. So like give kind of people context. Like, what's your. What's your day job? And then like what's your fall season look like?

Well, it's all changing, I guess. All I. All I did was just, you know, on the off season, paint houses and whatnot and then come around. July would be guiding anywhere from basically Nevada, and I would hunt all the way till January and even into February sometimes on extensions in Mexico. So lately it's changed for me because I don't guide anymore, don't carry a guide's license, and I just in a painting contractor raising. Raising a kid. So a lot has changed for me lately.

Yeah, you got that, that child now. You're gonna be like stay at home debt now?

No, not quite.

No.

I mean, we could talk about racing dirt bikes and all that stuff, but I want to dive in and first I want to hear, you know, the story of your big bowl from I think it was 20, 23. One was on the COVID Epic. And I mean like, kind of a culmination of like a lot of years. But one of the things I want to get to, like, you are ridiculously good at finding big critters, whether it's deer or elk or anything. So I'd love to kind of like dive into your system. And I know it's probably boils down to like just number of days in the field, so that's kind of where I figured we could start. We start with let's hear the story.

Behind the big bull.

And that's kind of the, A. A culmination, if you will, of a lot of like guiding, spending time like just knowing all these things, right? You become an expert and then you get the tag and it's like your. Your chance to. To be able to put it to work right.

So I've always like, said I'm not sure if this makes sense, but like, I never like considered myself great at finding big animals. I've just been like spending so much. Like I'm a better killer than a finder, if that makes sense. Like, interesting. If I find something or whatever it might be. Like, I don't, I don't want to sound arrogant, but like, dude, we're probably killing that thing like so. But I don't know, it all comes down to like, once I started stop like spending so much time in the field, I mean, heck, when I was doing it pretty full tilt, I mean, there was years I added up, you know, 150 days between scouting and hunting. So when it comes down to like, when you're spending that much time in the field, you spend a lot more time obviously looking at animals and reading their behaviors and stuff like that. So like when I finally would get my own tag because like when we're doing archery hunts with clients, like, like I'm typically 95 of the time with the client. Like, we're both sneaking in on the animal. So I get like a lot of practice. So when I get, you know, lucky to draw a tag for myself, it's just kind of like autopilot from there. It's just like almost second nature. I mean, when you've like focus your whole life on one thing, like, you sharpen that tool pretty good, you know what I mean?

Like, oh, totally, totally. And I think, dude, that's the thing that most people lack is like, it's so hard to get good at anything when you do it 10 days a year. Like, it's virtually impossible to become great at it 100%.

Like, I'll put it this way and like, I don't want to come off as that guy. But like, more often than not, like the hardest spot, like the hardest part of a stock is getting to 100 yards. Like once you get to 100 yards of that animal, like, and I don't shoot my animals at long range or whatever. Like typically, I bet you the average shot for me is, you know, 48 to 52 yards. It's like once you get to that 100 yard cushion, then it's just like everything. That animal is pretty much dead. Like, yeah, it's so easy to move from there on. It's just getting to that 100 yard mark is kind of a difficult part, depending on like where they're at and whatnot. In, in my opinion, you know, everyone else has opinions on stuff, but that's just my experience. But yeah, going into that elk hunt, like I said, that was 23, so I think I only guided one client that year because I Started my painting business and was, you know, taking a new direction in my life. Which was nice because when I drew that tags, well, kind of funny story, I put my wife in for the that same unit on the early, early rifle hunt and then I put myself for the early archery on a different credit card. So like if we drew we would know who did it or who got it. So she yeah card got hit. I'm like holy hell, you have a early rifle tag and you've never killed a squirrel, you know, so for probably like two weeks we just figured she had the tag and then once the draw results came out, I'm like hey babe, like check, check your portal. And she's like yeah, it says not drawn. I'm like that's interesting. So I check mine and I'm like, try not to be selfish. Like oh well, shucks. Looks like I drew it on the early archery so. And I've been very blessed with drawing that tag on pretty much any tag I've drawn lately. Have been like on stellar years. But any, anyhow, fast forward. You know, I was doing a lot of auction scouting for the Arizona tag. I mean thankfully, you know, I knew some people that were had me getting paid to be out there. So I was a God awful amount of time in the summer months. And like truth be told, I probably had in The Velvet probably four or five bowls I found that I thought were over 400 inches. And we were even talking about killing a couple at the auction tag but they were just really not in good places. Like we kind of needed a slam dunk on that deal and these weren't that so but come around like soon as they started stripping, stripping their velvet, it got brutal trying to find some of these bulls and every bull I found in velvet, I guess a lot of it. The only I was only spending time there just for the auction tag. Like I know I knew these bulls weren't going to be there. But the big thing, I wanted to be out there quite a bit to see what like what I should be hunting during my hunt.

Right.

If that makes sense. You know, I didn't want to go out there and shoot you know, 360 bull right off the bat. Not saying that's a bad bowl, but.

Taking, taking inventory.

Yeah, that's exactly what it was. And I mean I think I had found four bulls over. Yeah, like I said four or five over 400 and then another 15, well another 10 that I thought were over 380 in the velvet. Like it was one morning my buddy Benny Wells And I, because I would still work. So we would just shoot up in the morning, go scout. There was one morning off one knob. We had a 402 380s that we saw in one like in one hour. It was, it was unbelievable. It was the best thing I've ever seen. Yeah, it was. I, I'll probably never see anything like it. But. Yeah, fast forward to that. Like I, I probably put. I think I calculated it like 39 days of scouting.

Dang.

And yeah, one of the spots I ended up finding. And here's the other thing with Arizona too. Like all these guys on the over the counter stuff and it pisses me off. Like I have yet I've seen a lot of 200 inch deer killed like guided a lot of them. But south of the ditch in Arizona, like on the over the over the counter hunts, I have never seen a true 200 inch deer. And it pisses me off because I've spent like a stupid amount of time looking for these things. Still yet to find one. But anyways I find I did find a buck. Found him two weeks before the hunt and just saw him one time, didn't even look for him again. And then just showed up the opening morning and he didn't even. He moved 800 yards and slipped down there and shot him. He was like 191 inch. I forget what he was now, but he was like a 31 inch wide, beautiful deer. Like I was ecstatic with them, which is crazy.

You spent 39 days scouting. That's the only like solid buck you saw.

Dude. It's ridiculous. Yeah, the next buck was like 170. That's crazy. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I guess.

People good little bonus when you have a good rifle or outtake though.

No, 100%. Yeah, that. And that's really why. Because I don't really hunt the over the counter anymore because I don't have the time to do it like right. Like I've killed like a lot of like nice deer, you know, besides my strip buck. But it's just like I can't afford to go spend that time out there to turn up for the chance of finding a big deer. You know, it's just really slim and I guess my head's in a different place now. But anyways. Yeah. So coming into the elk hunt, we found a bull. I figured he was 390s, 400. I think he got killed this year and I thought he was smaller this year and he was like 406. Yeah. Anyways, my dad and I. I had a bunch of friends with me too, which was great. I mean, a lot of them were worthless because they were in the bar and Williams and, and all that stuff. But anyways, yeah, opening morning, we Same, same deal. Like, if I am hunting an animal that I've like, targeted, I really won't spend a lot of time in the area beforehand just because I'm a weirdo and I don't want like people seeing. Seeing a lot of activity in there because, like, sadly that's like the main reason I got out of guiding is because, like, dude, there's a lot of shitty people out there that will do shitty things, you know.

Interesting. They just kind of follow you around.

Not necessarily me, but I've seen it and I've seen. I've had, you know, people try to screw me over on stuff and it's just like, that's the most. I would never do that to someone. So, like, I'm just, like, I'm just over it. I'm sorry, I'm just getting sidetracked. But anyways, I don't really.

Did you have your bowl picked out before opening day?

No. So I. I had my heart set on this bull that we were hunting. He's a. Like I said, he was a giant. Anyways, Adam coming into a water hole that morning and for whatever reason, his cows decided to get there a lot quicker than he did. And they walked around the whole tank and like walked right into us because we didn't even. I wasn't planning on sitting the water. We were just. I mean, my dad and I were up there. We like two o' clock in the morning and he was the only bull in there, so we were just, just like skirting him while he was bugling. And we figured he was going to the water, so we ran there. We didn't have a blind or anything. And his cows walked into us and they blew across this canyon and all that stuff. And then that night we got on him again and I had him at 50 yards. I cow called to stop him, stop him at full draw. And it was like as soon as I calculed, like, he just blew sideways. Never gave me a shot opportunity. And yeah, that was a heartbreak. So spent the next few days looking for him and then one of my buddies glassed up a bowl.

He just disappear after that?

Yeah, we think so. I'm sure he would have stayed right there, but it was just hard.

Well, I want to, I want to touch back on that. Like, you know, losing big bulls and turning back up. But we'll keep going with the story, and I'll try to remember to bring that back up.

Yeah, typically, I mean, I had guys there, and we were actively still looking for him. I just sent, like, a buddy and his dad elsewhere, my buddy Colton and Gary, and they're like, hey, man. Like, they were like, my buddy Colton seen a lot of big bulls, and he's like, was really excited about this one, so had a giant back end anyways. And he. Where he saw it from where I killed him. And we don't even know if it's the same bull. It was probably, like, four miles. But anyways, the next morning, my dad and I stage up in a different, different area. And, you know, we had bulls walking past us, bugling all morning. And really no eyes on this big bull.

And.

There was this one bull, I think, like, it was probably like everything else shut up. And there was one bull bugling. And I'm like, well, you got nothing going on. I just told my dad, hey, keep them. Keep them bugling. And I'm just gonna take my shoes off and sneak down in there. And it was one of those deals, like, I think it was, like I said, around 9 o'. Clock. So the wind was, like, super inconsistent. Like, we were walking down to him, and the wind was blowing to him, and then we'd stop, sit down, and then when we'd be on our face. And it was like one of those deals, like, you think it's just probably not going to work out. And then just a couple minutes later, the wind steadied. And I'm like, all right, well, let's keep them talking. And I took my shoes off, and this bull would bugle every 15 minutes. And it's the hardest thing to tell, like, the depth perception of, you know, where the bugle is coming from, right? So, you know, he sounds a couple yard, 100 yards in front of me. So I start cutting some distance. My dad bugles a few times. This bull doesn't bugle. And finally, my dad. I just sit down. My dad bugles and rakes a tree, and this bull fires off, and he is, like, not in front of me anymore. He's, like, directly right of me at, like, 40 yards. And, yeah. So I have no idea what he is. I sneak through the trees a little bit. I'm standing there. He bugles one more time, and he's at the next juniper. It's pretty dang thick. So he gets up. I literally have, like, no time to think. Really. Like, I see his fronts. Fronts look good. He walks through opening. I'm at full draw. I cow call, stop him. He turns, looks my way. I'm like, oh, day three, got giant back in and just straight up blacked out and blacked out shot. And he takes off. And my dad's like. My dad comes running up. He's like, dude, you freaking hammered him. And I'm like, I'm about to throw up right now. Like, I have no idea what I just did. Like, he could be 350 for all that. Like, for what? I don't know. I just blacked out, bro. Like, I don't know what to say. I've always talked on clients and stuff for like, bro, like, what were you doing, dude? Like, And I was that guy that just. I don't even know, just had a. I don't know, dude. Like, had a moment just on the back end and just was like, that, that's good enough, you know?

Yeah.

And, you know, I was kind of like, you know, I almost wanted to throw up.

Like, that's like, you think you screwed up? You're like, what did I thought I.

Screwed up so bad because I'm like, just. I mean, not dry heaving, but did not feel well with myself. And I just had to tell myself, like, hey, man, like, you know, you're with your dad. You know, it's going to be a good bowl. Like, just enjoy it. And. Which is what it's really about, you know?

Yeah.

My thing was, hell, you just spent 40 days and you just dumped the 350 bull on day three. And sure, we jump on a blood trail and start tracking and come around a tree and he's like 60 yards bedded down dead, pretty much. I threw my glass up and I could see his rack. And I was like, oh, thank you, baby Jesus. Like, Like, I knew he was giant, like, walking up there and sure as hell walk up to him. And I asked my dad, I'm like, so how big is he? He's like, well, he's over 380. I'm like, well, that will. That will do.

That'll do, pig.

Yeah.

What a wild journey. And this is why they say, like, you never really want to get close unless, you know, like making those decision.

That is so, so hard. And I told myself before, like, because I knew I obviously, I spent so much time out, like, I knew the potential. I'm like, this is the year. If I'm ever going to kill a 400, it's probably on this year. And I told myself, like, I don't want to go chase Bugles because I know myself. Like, if I see a big bull at a distance, it's like, it's one thing. Like, oh, totally. Yeah. Like, you know, let's not go after him or whatever it might be, but. But like, I'm. When you have a 380 screaming in your face at 40 yards, it's pretty hard not to. You're like, well, I'm here and in bow range, so let's just see if I could hit them. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, well, I hit him. Let's see if I can find them. Oh, yeah.

90% of people. And I didn't get to the point where I. I used to, like, put stocks on. Like, I just want to see how close I can get. I'm like, that's a bad idea.

That's called.

We joke about that all the time. My buddies and I were like, oh, let's just see if we can get close. And we get there. We're like, let's just see if I could hit him. And it's just like, what the hell did I just do? You know?

Yeah, it's like a. It's like a gambler. Like, it's like, let's just sit at the tables. Like, we're not gonna gamble. We're just sit at the tables.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's kind of how that went. And I was super stoked. I mean, trust me, like, he's bigger than any bull I've killed by 50 inches, you know, so, yeah, that's really what I wanted. And. And to have my dad there with me was epic, you know, because he's been a part of, like, literally every, you know, proper animal I've killed. He's been there, you know, so it's pretty blessed to have him by my side on that.

Absolutely. That's super cool. I want to double tap into something you said. I mean, we still got to talk about a few things, but one of the things I want to dive into, you know, you're like, man, I feel like once I get in the red zone, a done deal.

Yeah.

What do you. I would love to, like, double tap on that. Like, I. I think most people are the opposite. Like, man, getting to a hundred is one thing. Getting, you know, a shot is another. What is your system? And, like, okay, let's. Let's work in from, like, real far. Let's go. Okay, we're on the glassy knob. We see him. You gotta get into striking distance first. Right.

And I'm.

No, I would love. Yeah, I'd love to know your like, your thinking and like how you approach that, like your process and all those things.

So. So my process. Yeah, if we find something off a hill is just immediately finding landmarks and getting to that spot as fast as possible. Like for example, like my stripped here. I glassed him up like two and a half miles away. Like, just pretty lucky spot, honestly. But literally ran the whole time to the spot. Like the thing I see people mess up on is they're too scared to move. Like they'll get close and they're just. They're inching, they're inching along and you're just like, dude, you have to start moving. Like your. Your window is pretty small once you get into like a certain spot, because all it takes is a deer to get up and you know, start walking slowly feeding, and you can't catch them.

So what's your like, what's your thought behind like when like, dude, I. I've been there. It's like, ah, we should go.

But it's like, man, I kind of.

Want to see what he does. Like, I want to watch like, how do you know, run to the red zone and when to stay on the glass.

I'm just all or nothing, honestly.

Yeah.

So here's like the thing back to like the strip buck I killed. Like.

The.

I've spent so much time hunting on the strip and seeing the deer one time, like, you can't. They're not coos deer where they'll. You're gonna find them right there again in the morning. Like you might not see that deer the rest of the hunt. So I basically treat every situation like it's the last day.

Interesting. Is that the same for elk too?

Yeah, I really don't care, like if pretty much I'm not gonna. Obviously if the wind's at my back blowing like, I mean back to my strip buck. Like when I killed that thing, the wind was so terrible and it was a crosswind that like it was just missing him by, you know, 30 yards. Like that's how close. Like I brought it that close to it. Because it's like, like I'll probably never see this deer again if, you know, I'm. We probably would have, but heck, I've hunted that country where I killed that deer. We hunted for 20 days with 6 guys trying to turn up a. Basically a 235 inch typical. Never saw him in the daylight with like 5 guys every day the whole hunt.

So when you get. When you see that green light and you're like daylight. I'm looking at him. We have to make something happen. But yeah. Well, it's interesting.

I will be patient in some situations. Like. Like, if it's the mornings, I'm not real on board with pushing it super quick in the mornings just because the wind. But like that 191 inch deer I killed before my elk hunt, I mean, it was. I killed him really early in the morning and that was kind of a forced thing. We were just like, hey, it's probably better to kill him on his feet right now. And because we were really close, I mean, when we glassed him up, he was 300 yards below us and like we had him dead pretty dang quick. And that was. I killed him going to his bedding area. Just cut him off and.

Interesting.

Just made a simple plan work and not. I was overthinking it quite a bit. Like, pretty scared to make the move when I got down there, but my buddy's like, dude, just. Just go shoot the thing. I was like, oh, okay.

I think that. I think, well, there's. I mean, there's levels to the game, but like, I think I do that with really big bowls. Like, I overthink it and it's like, no, it's just. No, you just gotta walk to up to it and put a sharp stick in it. And I think a lot of. A lot of people do that. And you know, everyone has their own big bowl version. But like, you know, you see a bowl, oh, I gotta play it safe or whatever. And it's like sometimes just being more aggressive and just walk up to it and put a sharp stick in it.

Yep.

You know, you don't overthink it. You don't let yourself get in your head.

I'll treat it. And that's what people do as well. Like, they find this big animal and they're so worried and meticulous on how they're going to handle the situation to go shoot it. And at the end of the day, like, how I think about it, it's like, well, it's just another deer. Like, when I, you know, stalk an animal, I'm not looking at his horns. I'm just like, all right, this is. This is another buck. We're just gonna kill it like that. My mentality, yeah, I'd be curious, like.

Do you think big bulls at, like. I mean, everything has. Is relative in scale. But like, when you talk about big bulls, old, mature, we could just say the top 5% or whatever. Like, do you think they act differently or do people overthink that and it's just like. It's just another bull elk.

I think they do. I think they act differently. Yeah.

And how so?

I've just seen. They've just done, like. I've just seen them do, like, some really, like, really witty things with, like, leaving their cows for whatever reason when they're not feeling like. Like, I've seen them, like, when they're pretty dumb in the rut too. Like. Right. You know, have some smart instincts with, like, yeah, this isn't a good situation. Just straight up leave cows, like, come in silent, not bugle back. I mean, that's a common one, but, yeah. I don't know. They get to that certain point where they're a big, mature bulls. One of the hardest things to kill on the planet as well. I'll always talk on the elk, but, like, I mean, they're pretty difficult sometimes. And I haven't killed a lot of big bulls. Like, I haven't guided a lot of big bulls. Like, I mean, I've been a part of, you know, some 430s and stuff, auction stuff, but that really doesn't care. Doesn't matter because there was 20 of us there, and I was, you know, right. Five miles away on a knob. So I really don't consider those, you know, achievements of mine.

But when it comes to, like, getting in the red zone, you know, we talked like, okay, I'm just gonna go, like, get into striking distance. Like, how do you go from, say, striking distance? Or you. Are you going straight from, you know, two miles away to, like, the stock? Like, how do you approach that? And where's the, like, the line for you? This could be deer or elk, either one.

Basically, I just care about deer more. Basically. Like, I said, like, I'll just, like, what do you mean, like, the line for me?

Well, like, I don't know. This is how I think about it, but it's like, okay, like, let's. Let's get in the red zone and like, either find them again or, like, make a plan, like, readjust. So for me, it's like, I gotta be. And this I'm thinking more about was.

Like, I got to be close enough.

To strike if I can see, you know, if I say. I see a. Say, see whatever. I'm gonna move and try to get to where, like, we can make another decision. I don't know if you're just like, hey, we're going all the way into the stock. And I'm.

Oh, yeah.

Generally, guys Would like, want to make sure he's still there.

But yeah, typically if I had someone's eyes on them, on him, like, I'm going straight in there. Obviously there's been situations where, you know, like a big deer will go feed and drop off into a canyon or whatever. Like, I'm not going straight to where I last saw him. I'm definitely looping around and glassing back into it, trying to re. Reassess the situation. I'm not just all, oh, he went right there. I'm gonna go try to kill him or blow him out, one of the two. I am really meticulous on that side of things.

So what's that look like? Because the one of the things you said, like, man, if I feel like I can get in the red zone, it's easy from there I'm like, wow, that's a interesting statement. I feel like I'm the, like, we can get to, you know, like the red zone, but then everything's got to go right in that final. Why do you feel so confident, like, with, like, if I can get within 100 yards, this animal's dead.

Just because typically all the, like, all the BS is out of the way. Like the hardest part in a, the hardest part in a stock is like, in my opinion, just getting to that 100 yard marker. Because there's all these variables with crossing canyons and the deer moving. But as soon as you get to that spot, typically I've noticed, I've gone back and forth on it from like situations I've had. But like, you could move more than you think and it's the weirdest thing. Like sometimes you're not even moving and you're close and the deer will just like lock eyes on you and go like when, yeah, when the hell did you get here? You know? Then sometimes it's like when they're on their feet feeding, like you could just kind of not walk right up to them, but move quite a bit without getting caught.

Totally. It takes a lot of at bats to figure that out. And I think like one of the things about, you know, when I teach people about elk hunting, it's like, man, you have to learn what you can get away with and in order to do that, you kind of got to screw up a bunch of stuff.

Exactly.

Gotta learn what you get away with.

And just add bads. But like, exactly.

For sure without, you can get away with so much more than people think.

Oh yeah.

Big noisy animals, right? Like sometimes you have to be sneaky, but for the most part Sound isn't the issue, like, right. Gonna get away with a lot.

Right? I don't know. Like, it's just. It's hard to talk about because, you know, like, on the morning I killed my elk. Like, I, like, chased a couple of bugles trying to see what these bulls were. End up blowing him out and, like, gosh, like, freaking suck at this stuff. And then it's like a half hour later, it's like, oh, just walk. Walk right into this bull and shot him. Like, it's. It's so hard to, like. I don't know, dude.

It's funny because you were like, in that story, you. You touched on the wind. You're like, man, the wind was swirling, and you just kept going. Like, walk me through. I feel like, man, when swirling, definitely, if it's a, like, shoot or something, I'm like, oh, we should back out. I think that's the opinion of a lot of people. Like, do you kind of push the. Push the wind, like your. Your line there?

Yeah. I mean, on that deal, it was just kind of like the bull's 400 yards in front of us, and the wind's blowing at our back, and I'm like, well, sit on the ground for a while. And then the winds become steady in our face, and it's like, all right, let's start moving again. We start moving, the wind's, like, at our back, and it's like, dude, what the hell is going on? Like, yeah, this is never gonna work. So we're just sit there and wait for it to balance out, and it gets. Here's the other thing, too. It's like, I've been a lot of situations. I'm sure a lot of other guys push the envelope on this. It's like when. When the winds. Just because the wind's blowing at the animal doesn't mean it's going to the animal. Right. Like, thermals are picking it up. There might be a crosswind between you and him that it's not even getting to him. I've seen that a lot of the times.

You know, it's one of those things where, like, sometimes that the wind is just swirly, and we're just gonna have to, like, take a chance.

Yeah.

Roll the dice.

That's. That's what that case was. And I didn't even know what the bull was. We were just gonna go look at a bugle and, like, it just. One of those deals just kind of fell into my lap. I'm like, oh, well, yeah, here we are.

It's Just one of those things where it's like, yeah, it's great advice. Like, always hunt with the wind in your face.

Yeah, I don't.

I'm. I've never hunted there because I can't get anywhere oven like definitely not that.

And. Right.

You kind of sometimes just gotta roll the dice. When do you start getting worried? Like, how far away from a critter? Like, you know, people like, like, oh, if you're over the ridge, it probably won't matter. Like, you know, are you like, man, within 200 yards, 500 yards?

Like, I get like, like within 250. That's when I'm concerned. So, like, for example, like, that buck I killed when it was during my, like, well before my old count, he was like, like 350 yards below us or 300, whatever he was. And he was next to this pinnacle with a saddle in it. So I got to that saddle and every time I'd walk up that pinnacle and I'm inside 200 yards, every time I walk up it, the wind started blowing out my back. So I'd go back down the hill and it'd be in my face. So my buddy Keith and Tom, they're like looking at the deer looking back at me and they're like, dude, every time we look back at you, you're walking back up the hill. And I'm like, is, dude, the wind. The wind's terrible. And they're like, dude, I promise you, once you get, once you get to the top of the hill, it's going to be in your face. And it's like, I don't know, it's. It's just like sometimes just going for it, like, yeah, I just have the mentality of we're gonna hunt them, like, and I got that mentality from like Matt Schindberg, which I used to hunt with a lot back in the day that, you know, owns a three trophy hunts is like, hey, like, just hunt every day, like it's your last day. Because I've seen people do some really dumb things with some really big deer. Like, oh, hey, let's not push it tonight, even with a rifle in our hand because we'll probably find them tomorrow. And it's like, all right, come back tomorrow and like, never see that deer again.

Oh, dude.

And I'm talking like world class, like 215 inch typical type stuff. And I'm pissed off because I'm. But that's the problem. Like, we have a couple different chiefs in charge. Well, I guess there's only one. But when everyone has their own opinion, half the guys are like, well, let's just not push it. And I'm like, well, screw that. Like, go. Let's go shoot that thing. Like, I don't know. It's just my mindset on it.

Do you think people are generally too soft? Like, where's your opinion? Do you think it's, like, getting to where it's, like, people try to overthink it and you're getting more towards this, like, line of, like, ah, let's wait till tomorrow. Wait for the right setup the most.

Yeah, I would say. I would think the most successful bow hunters are the ones that are pretty aggressive. It's hard moving. It's hard to kill something, not being aggressive and. But guys do it. Like, I. I just don't have the personality to sit there and wait.

And if you're not gonna be aggressive, you need, like, 30 to 60 days.

You need a rifle in your hand if you're not gonna be aggressive. Yeah, exactly.

Right?

That's. And that's kind of how I stand on it. I don't know. It all comes down to, like, overthinking. Yeah. And. And that's what gets a lot of guys just really worried about, you know, the size of the animal. And I think that's what that boils down to, personally.

Totally. I think that's great advice. And, like, my advice is always, like, be more aggressive and work backwards, because, you know, it'll take you too many years if you're, you know, not aggressive. It'll take you so many years to get at bats to figure it out. Like, you're better off to, like, screw things up for a while. Um, that's the way I did it. I was, like, way too aggressive, and I was like, let's tone this back. Back a notch. Yeah. And then, like, you can kind of get in from there. And that's. It's definitely something I've learned. Like, the more I get around big bulls and stuff, it's like, I. I never was around really big bulls. And then when I started getting around and be like, you know, you find that giant and you treat it different. And I was like, I had to. Had to get out of my own head and, like, don't treat it any different. Like. Yeah, they do different things. Like, I think 100. You're right. Like, they act witty or they act inconsistent. Like, they. You know, they didn't. They didn't get that old by. By not being some kind of random. Yeah. That's intelligence. Or they're Just random. But at the same time, like, to, to that point. Another thing is I think you get those big bulls and they can just disappear on you. Like, I've definitely seen that. It's like you, it may not be a perfect situation, but it might be the only situation you get. And you know, these big critters didn't get old for no reason. They do random. Like they just up and leave one day and yeah, it's over. That was that game. Good luck.

I'll put it this way. Every big deer, like every true giant deer we've ever hunted, like me and Greg Krog together or whatever, 99 of them died, like, from us. Like, we're, we're killing these things. Like we're just dumb enough to stay here long enough to kill him. Yeah, like those big elk. And you know, people are gonna hate me for saying this, but like, dude, I think they're tougher to kill. Like, you have a shorter window. You have like two weeks to kill these things. And we've also killed them. I've killed some bulls that traveled like 35 miles from where we've hunted him. And I'm not saying like I tracked him 35 miles. I'm saying we videoed him. And then they just, they're like, they're so nomadic and just randomly shot this thing that, you know, I've, I've seen him travel 35 miles, 40 miles. But I'm not that, like, I'm not that huge in the elk hunting, so I don't have like a huge.

Yeah.

And it's hard to, it's really hard to like, narrow down. It's. I think it's hard to be a really good elk hunter because at the end of the day you only have one season. Like.

Right.

But you know what I mean, you have a two week window to figure this out every year. Yeah. And with the meal deer, I think it takes a lot more patience to like, we're not out there just hunting mule deer. We're not like, they're not bugling and you can't just go walk up to them and check on them and whatnot. Like, I don't know where I'm going with that. But they're just like, I don't know, we're hunting with one particular deer that we find and a lot of the times it's. You'll see them every day in velvet and then gradually turns to every three days, then every five days. And then we've ended up killing deer that we didn't see. For 60 days. And what, we were there? Yeah, we were there looking for them, you know.

Yeah.

And like you learn a lot about.

Them even through the summer and whatnot. So often, like, yeah. Scouting for big bulls, it's like, yeah, you could find them. Good luck. And you know, in September, like you said, it could be 35 miles away. Like, that's so crazy. And you know, bulls just come out of the woodworks, which I kind of like. I, I like the. Nothing wrong with not knowing.

Yeah.

Not knowing. But like, I love the not knowing. Like, just like it feels like a giant could show up at any time. And I mean, that's a cool piece. I, I mean, I think that like late season, like some of the rifle stuff to me feels more mule deary where it's like, you know, you're looking for that needle in a haystack and you're just like, he's going to be right there. And like going to be. No, like, yeah, he's going to be less nomadic, I should say.

Yeah. Could go 10 miles, but yeah, not, I mean, not likely, depending on where you're at. But like on our late hunts, we've hunted like, man, we show up and we'll have five bulls locked in. And these things, they are not moving. Yep. And chances are we show up opening day and it might be some other guys have already seen him. Or we show up most time like all our bulls are dying opening day on the late, on the late rifle hunts because they're just, they don't, they don't move, you know, and that's good and bad because sometimes they'll just, you know, and I say they won't move. Like these things are staying within 100 yard range.

Yeah.

So the connection is like, can you even get a shot at him? Because some of these bulls live in a pocket.

Sometimes we'll sit there for a couple days waiting for them to, you know, around the ridge or whatever, you know. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's the deal. But I think those bulls during the rut are very difficult to kill. But that's what I like about elk hunting too is because there's, you never know what's going to show up. That's not that common with deer. That's why I like, you know, the whole. And people are probably gonna hate me for it, but like the no trail camera thing in Arizona, like, I'm for it. Like, especially hunting the strip. It was the most annoying thing. Like everyone knowing about every deer. Yeah, I totally agree.

I could go, I Mean, I could go either way. Like, I mean, I hate to ban things, but at the same to your point, like, the, the strip stuff is ridiculous. There's like 20 cameras on every water tank. It's.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, sometimes there was, but it basically comes down to like, and I use them. Like, like we're using them. There's be. There'd be a lot of the times, like where we'd be hunting an area, we'd only get them on trail camera. And this is a couple years ago. Like, me and my dad were hunting it four or five years ago now. And it was like, we would not be here if we didn't have this trail camera. Like, we have not seen this deer with four of us in here looking for them at all. So it's like, I don't know, it.

Kind of brings data point. Like you're like trying to chase a ghost. You're like, yeah, we can get my camera.

But like, yeah, and it's like, it's bucks. Like, my buddy Daniel Willett, his mom killed probably the coolest mule deer of all time this year. It's like, I don't know, it's 35 wide, like 226, four point with some inline. He's like a 240 buck, but like the biggest 240 you've ever seen in your life. I don't think anybody even knew about this deer. And they just DIY hunting. Smack this thing on the strip. And it's.

How did nobody. I feel like every deer in the strip is known.

Is that not.

I don't know it super well, but it's. That seems crazy to me.

Yeah. I mean, and there's like, that's why I like the no trail camera thing, because chances are people would have had them on camera. Even with cameras, there's a few deer that slipped through. But now a lot of these deer, you know, are going to be. No one's really going to know about them. And especially now since they're getting rid of the auction tags, which I think is extremely dumb, because these guys aren't going to be able to afford to go out there and spend the crazy amount of time they used to. Right. When you're getting paid to be out there scouting, that's one thing. But now it's like, all right, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go. You can go scout all summer and for no reason.

For.

For what? You're not getting compensated. Sadly. Sadly, that's kind of where it's gone. And that's how I would look at it. Like, yeah, I love the, I love doing this, but heck, I'm six hours from the Strip. I'm not gonna go up there and right. Spend all my money and look for deer for. For what? You know.

So what do you think this trip becomes over the next, like 10 years, five years even?

Hopefully. Good. I think they need to manage it. I haven't been on the Strip in a little while, but from my understandings, they seem like the lions are kind of wreaking havoc. People, people are thinking it's kind of going down. I mean, I'm not an expert on it by any means, but I think it's been pretty average the last few years. But all it takes is a good moisture year and bam, you're going to have a 2019 again or whatever.

Yeah, that's interesting.

But, but keep in mind, people are like, oh, the strips down. But it's like, okay, well a couple two 30s, two 40s last year. Like, yeah, it's down, I guess. But like that's probably the biggest year that come off the strip forever. Not, not just score wise, but like just sheer size.

Yeah, that's wild. What was one, I mean, you hunted with Greg Krog. He was on, he was on my podcast years and years ago. Yeah. What was one of the one things you learned from him?

Trying to think. He's taught me quite a bit, but by the time I got to him, I was pretty, you know, pretty sharp on some stuff, some things, you know, his big thing was the meal. Deer hunting is just so simple. Like one of the things I wish I would have learned from him more is the tracking because like, and like him and I don't know many young guys that are like really good trackers, like you know, Matt Shimberg, Greg Krog or Jason Campbell. But like, man walking with those guys, it's pretty humbling. Yeah, I could go track a deer here and there, but like these guys were, you know, at the next level of that. That's one thing I wish I'd learned from him, but other things, just staying, staying persistent positive and basically just more on the client side of things. Not necessarily the hunting, you know, just keeping your client positive and, and that's huge out of the gutter because hunting meal dirt, like everyone, everyone, everyone wants to be like a meal deer hunter until it's time to hunt mule deer. And it's like the shittiest thing. I hate doing it. Like, I hate looking for bucks. I'm like, this sucks. Like, not Finding anything but like you. If we have something found, like, it's so much easier to stay motivated and like, oh yeah, you have something to go off of. But you know, some of these hunts, you know, they like. The Nevada hunt is probably the toughest thing ever hunted in my life. Really? Oh, it's. It's brutal. And people like, well, you guys killed this or that and it's like, yeah.

But yeah, dude, I feel like you guys's highlight reel and especially like, you know, five, six, eight, eight years ago, I'm like, you look at the highlight reel, it's like, man, what an epic time to be, you know, Nevada.

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

It takes a lot of. A lot of sack lock of sacrifice. A lot of days, a lot of hours.

Like all the things. Oh, 100%. And it's. It's something that. Yeah, I don't. I really don't care to do it anymore unless I had. Unless I have my own tag. Right. Or. Or if it's like a really good hunt. Nice. I don't mind grinding it, but it's like I feel like I've spent so many days just. Just wasting my life away because it is a brittle thing. It really is, dude.

Well, awesome. Well, congrats on everything. Hopefully. Hopefully you get some sleep with that new baby next couple weeks. But hey, thanks for Joe but all man.

Appreciate it and of course, dude. Yeah.

Let's keep in touch. Are you gonna race this year? Are you gonna do some Baja stuff or no?

Yeah, well, I don't know. That's basically kind of what. Not that I gave up honey for, but I really enjoy it, the racing side of things. And I don't know, I. I don't know about the Baja. Maybe if I did anything, it'd probably be the thousand. But we're really big into like the Glen Helen. Yep. The Glenn Helen series. We've typically race the 10 hour and the 24 hour, which is just a super fun family event that, you know, we're super competitive in for the most part for blue collar guys showing up and you know, trying to win. Yeah, we've been busy on that. And I think next month I'm gonna go do a best in desert race and do just the Ironman pro class and go do all the miles myself. Just.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I don't know. We'll see.

That's. Yeah, that's quite a feat, man.

Well, that's cool.

We'll keep it rubber side down and try not to kill yourself. But. Yeah. Good chat with you buddy.

I like.

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