Trust Your Gut: The Simple Truths of Elk Hunting

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This is the Elk Hunt podcast, home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode is brought to you by Tricer Tripods. You need something to put that fancy new maven optics on. Get yourself a Tricer tripod and one of their pan heads.

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All right, Evan, welcome to the show, buddy. I was, we were just talking before the show and I was like, yeah. One of my listeners was like, hey, I would love to hear you and Evan discuss elk hunting. You know, he's got some cool thoughts. I was like, oh, yeah, I'll just reach out to you. So I reached out to you. You are so 30,000 foot view. You're a guide. You've been a lot of elk hunts. I'm sure that's your full time job is killing elk, right?

You, you got it. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've kind of shaped my life around elk hunting here in the flat tops, dude.

I mean, that's a pretty damn good life. Yeah, I think I like to think I'd shape my life around elk hunting as well, but you probably do more of it than, than even me or a lot of people.

So.

How many, dude, how many elk hunts.

A year do you do, you know? Well, so, so kind of a whole, whole variety of hunts. I end up doing some bear hunts, you know, this year, a couple of sheep hunts, and then, yeah, approximately, you know, two archery hunts and four rifle hunts annually. Okay. Yeah, like, like six guided hunts. And then I try to get out, you know, like with my wife and get a cow. Late season. Yeah, I'd say six to seven hunts a year. Cool.

I would love to dive into, I'd love to dive into like the guide's perspective, like how, like, oh, you know, what a client can learn all of those things. But first, since it was like brought to me and someone told me you had a unique perspective on elk hunting, I'd be curious, like, what, what do you believe about elk hunting that's different than most people, man.

I think my approach, it's, it's funny because, you know, I listen to these podcasts and stuff too, right? And everybody has an angle, right? Everybody has a strategy that's theirs. I feel like my strategy is very dumbed down. Like, I'd love to get it out there to people that it's here than you think it is and that you, you just need to go, you know, when you, when you have the urge, you need to, you need to go and you need to. Your decision making process needs to be just, you know, less, less analyzed. You need to just react on gut instincts and mix it up with elk and, and quit overthinking it. You know what I mean? I think, yeah, I, I think there's a lot of guys, like, a lot of guys that are very successful and have a lot of knowledge, are proud of that knowledge and and so they want to make it seem harder than it actually is because it's self gratifying that way. 100.

Not to pick on individuals, but I do think a lot of education was taught by people who sold out calls. And so like, you know, like call a spade a spade. Like that was for a lot of years probably you and I grew up around elk hunters. That was like, all the knowledge came from people who like sold out calls. Guess what they preached, right? Like, and it works for sure. And I love this concept of like, hey, what's the. How do you dumb it down to like the simplest version? Like what is like if you had to tell a kindergartner. And one of the things, like I'll tell myself, what I've been saying on the podcast a lot lately is like, essentially you got to walk up and poke it with a sharp stick. Like, don't overthink it. And it doesn't really matter how big the bull is. Like at the end of the day, like to me, you know, guys will overthink it. If it's a big bull. Guys will like, oh, this bull's super smart.

I gotta be super smart.

And it's like, dude, you just gotta walk up and poke it with a sharp stick. Like end of the day, that's all it really boils down to. And like, there's some like, you know, tips and tactics along the way for sure. But like, at the end of the day it's just, that's it. It's not that complicated.

Our man, our man Teddy Roosevelt had a, a great quote. It was something along the lines of there's three sorts of decisions you can make. Right. The best is the right decision. The second best is the wrong decision, and the third best is to do nothing at all.

Yeah.

Like go hunting, be aggressive in your tactics. You're going to screw up a lot, but you're going to learn so much along the way. And most of the, most of like the, that the knowledge you can gain is not from a podcast, not from a book, not from a guy that sells elk calls. It's from making mistakes out there, you know, 100%. And yes. So any anyways from, from way back, that's kind of my strategy is just, just to be kind of aggressive in your tactics. When you find elk, make a move on them. Try to get in there and get a sharp stick in them and, and learn as you go, you know.

Totally. And I like almost I'm part of the problem because it's like you listen to enough Podcasts and like, dude, you could. The last. If you listen to the last 10 episodes I did, it'd probably be like, 10 different answers, right? And you're like, what does that mean? Good.

It all worked. Yeah. You know, if. If you want to spot and stock elk, that'll work. If, if you want to only bugle, that'll work. If you want to hunt them with your pants off, that'll probably work. You know what I mean? Like, I think people get very confused with all the information that's out there, and they're kind of hamstringing themselves because they, they, they, they. They pick a method that they want to try and just. Just go hunting. Go hunting, make moves on elk and, and, and. And, you know, enjoy yourself. I love it.

So one of the things like, I tend to teach or talk about is just like, man, develop your own little system. Try to, like, try to focus on two or three tools that work that, like, you know, you feel comfortable with, and stick with that. Like, just try to get close, right? And, you know, so I always have. Personally, my system is like, one of the things I talk about is like, okay, how do you separate finding elk and getting close to elk? Like, I do think that, like, man, you gotta be damn good at finding elk, which is like, cover ground, figure it out. Like, look long, look often. Like, all those things that, like, most guides are using to find out. Like, you know, say I go with you. You and I are like, we show up to unit. We don't know. We have never been here before. A little bit of time here, man. You and I are going to cover as much ground as fast as we can to, like, try to figure out where our elk are to hunt. And then it's like, okay, you know, what play do we want to use? Let's get in there and just, like, get close. Like, hey, let's just get close and see if we can put a sharp stick in it. It doesn't have to be overly complicated to your point. Um, you know, and as you get better, you. You kind of get a couple little tactics that you're like, oh, if we just slip in and cut them off here, that'll work. Uh, you know, that, that worked last time. Or, you know, you, you learn these things over the way, over the way, over the time. But at the end of the day, it's like, I boil it down to a couple things that work well for you, for your area, for, like, what the elk are doing where you're hunting. Like, you know, like, you hunting in Colorado versus me in Montana. Probably a little slightly different tactics, right? Arizona a little bit different. If we go to Oregon, hunt the coast, like it's gonna be different. So like just figure out what works in, in the, in your hunting spot and like stick to those things. Not to boil it down too simply, but yeah.

Oh absolutely. Boy, I, like I said, I think boiling it down to simplicity is important.

Oh, 100. So like what's your go to strategy? Like, okay, I'm your client. Like, what's like, I'm, I'm assuming you know, the, the benefit a guide has is like they know the area, they know the elk, they know what they do when they do it. I mean that, that to me seems like it's that insider knowledge, like it's local knowledge. Right? Like, you know, the old timer that lives on D Street, he knows what time the mailman comes, he knows what time, like you know, the ice cream truck drives by knows all those things. I really feel like that's the benefit. But if you didn't have that, if I, you and I, you came to Montana, I'm like, hey, we're on this unit. Like what, what does your day to day look like to try to figure it out to get, to become a local knowledge?

Yeah, I mean, so my perspective is, is really unique. Cody. I've actually, this is, this is no joke. I have never held a non resident elk license and most of the elk that I've killed and guided and interacted with are within an area that's, you know, three game units in, in western Colorado. Um, so I, you know, there's, I think there's, there's several kinds of knowledge. There's that, that, that is a broad and shallow lake and that there's that which is a narrow and deep gorge. Yeah, I've, I've personally gone down the path of that, that narrow deep gorge. And man, I, I do think, I, I think there's a lot of value in that even to, you know, to any do it yourself hunter, to learning in an area inside and out. It's always been, you know, my aspiration as a hunter. I've always wanted to be a man of one mountain. You know what I mean? I like, like I've, I've used an analog with, with, with hunters. When, when you're sitting on, when you're sitting on a high point and you look out at the blue yonder on every one of those peaks, there's a guy, there's a guy that knows it better than anybody else that, that killed his first boulder when he was 16 that, you know what I mean, has stories and memories and he's usually an assassin. Yeah. You know, there is value in, in learning a place inside and out. And our, you know, here in Colorado we have great opportunity to do that because of our over the counter system and an easy tag acquisition. Learn. Learn a place. I, I think that's, that's special. And, and by learning a place, you're able to get more encounters with elk and more encounters with elk makes you a better hunter.

Oh, yeah, I agree. Unless there's no out there.

Anyways, that was just to like, kind of give you an idea of where I'm coming from. Right. Like, I've basically hunted the same unit my whole life and that absolutely factors into how I got a client. I have a place to start. I have A, a plan B, a plan C, a plan D, and I kind of run through a system, if you will.

Dude, I'd love to like, just explore that because I don't get a lot of people who know, dude, the man of one mountain is. It's the opposite of me. So I'd love to dive into it. I'm like, dead serious. Like, I, I get, I don't say I get bored. I had places like that a long time ago, but now it's. I feel like I get bored with places and I want to go explore new places. So, like. Yeah, but I know there's a lot of people, like, more like you that are like, I just want to like, know every nook and cranny. I would love to, like, you know, maybe you have a story. Maybe there's a good story here. Like a time and a hunt where you were like, I know exactly where these elk are going. I know the trail to get to them. And I like, what's the. What is there a story that kind of like puts an exclamation on that point of like knowing what the mountain is, where they're going to go and all those things.

Yeah, man. I mean, the best examples are of that are when the hunting's hard, Right. When we're like on day three or four of a hunt and we haven't seen an elk. I can think of a, of a first rifle hunt several years ago where it was, you know, hot, dry. First rifle tends to be one of the more heavily hunted seasons. And there's guys all over, there's guys backpacking, the weather's friendly, so it's really hard to, you know, escape pressure and find elk. You know, we were struggling And I remember it was a lodge based hunt where we, you know, we're riding three, four, five miles into the wilderness to hunting locations and we just weren't finding them. And so I told my hunter like, hey, man, and this particular guy, I don't think he even had a whole lot of camping experience. Right. But I said, hey, you're going to borrow one of my sleeping bags and we're going to, we're going to pack some mountain houses and a, and a small stove and we're going to ride like 10 miles to this headwaters basin that I want to go look at because we're not finding elk where we should. There's people in spots where I'd like to be hunting. So we're just going to go, we're going to ride for 10 miles, five hours of riding, right to get back in there. And we went up there, set a spike camp, and that first evening of glassing, we found a bowl which was a good six in a place that nobody, nobody would think of looking. That particular spot, like, what drew me there is that I've found that before. I found that like when, when there aren't elk in a predictable place, this is a little nook where there are. Right. It's, it's just, Yeah, I mean it's just experience based, I think in a particular area because it's, you know, thinking back to like that bowl and that story, it's not a, it's not a spot that's like particularly elky. Right. It's just a spot where there aren't people. Oftentimes in, in over the counter units, easy draw units. That's where they are. Right. Like they're, they're foregoing all other needs. They're. They're forgoing the good feed and the good water and they're just picking a place to hide.

Yeah, yeah. Especially in Colorado, I, when you think about, you know, where elk should be, you know, I'm sure you have experience with this, but it's like, man, there's really elky areas but like oftentimes they're not. Right? And so many times when you have a ton of experience on the mountain, you're like, man, the elk are always here or here. And I mean, you know how it is around camp. It's like, oh man, you didn't see anything in such and such or you didn't see anything in such and such. Man, where are they? Like you're finding them. Like, how does your brain think about finding elk when they're not where they're supposed to be.

Yeah, it's, it's usually like a fortune favors the bold type strategy. You know what I mean? It's usually like we're going to do something that's absolutely nuts. Right. Because that's what everybody else isn't doing. So, so when it's tough, when they aren't in predictable places, when they aren't in the L key spots, it's usually just a swing for the fences type thing where we pick something far or something that's hard to look at or something that's hard to access. Trying to get outside of the, think.

Outside of the box. Right?

Yeah.

Is that same for archery? Because a lot of times archery seems like you always have those spots or like, you know, you kind of know the rough idea where the bulls or the, the cows I should say are rotten, where the action is, you know, Is it, is it kind of a similar, it's like, man, now they must be in a pocket somewhere.

They must be hidden.

Like, is that kind of the same strategy?

I think archery is a little bit friendlier just because they haven't had the, the extended exposure to, to public pressure, you know what I mean? And there are, it does, I don't know if you've noticed this, but it does seem like there are predictable rutting locales. Like they, they tend to kind of use the same areas and then ping pong around in there.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean if, if you build some historical knowledge in September there, there definitely are just traditional rutting areas where you're going to consistently find elk year after year.

Year. How many years do you think it, it takes in your mind to be a man of one mountain to like really understand a unit?

I'm still getting there, Cody. I, I, I'm, I'm telling you, like, yeah, I, I, I don't, I think it could be a lifelong pursuit. I, I don't know that you ever have it. And I think that the guys that had stand up and say they do are, are just kind of being arrogant.

They haven't been there long enough.

Yeah, Yeah. I still get my butt kicked regularly and end up leaving scratching my head wondering what happened.

That's interesting. What's a good story of, you know, getting your butt kicked when you thought you had it, had it made?

You know, I've got an epic last, last year during September during archery, I had a really good, like to the point that we were just making. You never really have it. I, I had a guy last year that, that came in and my initial sizing him up. I thought, man, it's going to be tough, right? He's a bigger guy. He, he was from the south. He only had whitetail hunting experience. And I, I kind of sized him up as a, you know, a tough case. Yeah, it turned out the guy was incredible, right? Like, he had great work ethic. He was willing to do anything. He didn't walk as fast as me, but he, he would go anywhere. And day two of the hunt, we had a blown call in where I didn't read wind properly and the setup failed. And yeah, he had a bull, you know, tearing off through the timber that was 40 yards at one point. That was a bummer, right? Day. Day three, we ran into hunters in one of my. My spots, right? And a bunch of them, and they were all over the place. And we worked a bull that day, but they were working him too, right? So again, like a frustrating failed attempt. The last day of the hunt, the final day, we did, as I mentioned, like a swing for the fences. We went, went way high in the drainage. We took more of a spot and stock strategy. We found a bull and we put a, put a move on him quietly to get close and then, and then calling once we were in there, and, man, that bull fired off. And I'd given my hunter this, this speech about how a bull will never work out across the open, like, we're going to set up in this little strip of timber because that's where he'll come. I guarantee it, man, that's where he'll come. Well, he came loping across the pasture, right? Loping across the wide open. He stopped at 80 yards and raked a willow and, and we got no shot. So it was like during the court, the guy didn't tag a bowl. And in hindsight, you know, I played through all the scenarios that we had that, that week. I made, you know, seasoned guide. I made mistake after mistake after mistake. But, man, that's the, that's the real treasure in hunting and in becoming a better hunter is those hunts. I can go back and I can look at. I can look at three or four different scenarios during that hunt where I feel I made a mistake. And that's going to shape me. That's going to shape me for my future hunts. You know, that's, that's interesting because I.

Like, you know, as you were saying, mistakes. I was, you know, I like to.

The.

One of the ways I think about it is like, it can, you can beat yourself over, you know, air quotes here, mistakes, but it's like, you Know, we executed and it didn't work. There's so many variables in elk hunting. Like, oh, the wind switch. I don't know if it's a mistake. Maybe you could have played it differently, but, like, going back to, like, don't overthink it. I. Man, I really think people beat themselves up over, like, mistakes. And I look at it as, like, hey, listen, 10% of these situations are going to be successful. We just have to execute well. And, like, sure, some variables are going to, like, happen. You can't predict that a bull is going to come stomping across the pasture because, like, you would. You would never plan for that, or else you. That would be more of a mistake. The correct answer is, like, let's set up so he's going to come this way.

Sure.

Happens all the time. Yeah. And, like, like, you and I been in a lot of haunts or whatever. Like, we're still gonna screw it up. But, like, I don't. Don't. People shouldn't beat themselves up over air quotes, mistakes, because it's more often it's just like, hey, let's make a good setup. And, like, a certain percentage of these are going to work and a certain percentage aren't. We just have to get more at bats, like, more setups. Right. Like, your scenario. I wasn't doing the math, but it's like three setups or four, whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. Like, it messes up, but that's. That's kind of the game. And I think a lot of people beat themselves up, like, oh, what could I do differently, dude? I've been in so many situations where it didn't pan out. Something happened, but I would have played it the same way. So I don't, like, I don't know if it's a mistake.

Right.

Like, I would have played it the same way. And I think about it often, like, you know, something will happen, and I'll be sitting there like, man, what could I have done? I should have done this. And I do think people get into that, oh, I should have done this. And then they, like, they start to, like, fight themselves. Like, I should have been more aggressive. And then they'll be more aggressive, like, oh, I should have been less aggressive. And then, like, you know, you're in this constant, like, you know, back and forth with your tactics, and it's like, man, make the best decision and assume 50, it's probably higher, but 50 aren't going to work out. Like, is that a fair statement?

Yeah, no, that's. That's fair. And, and no, you're absolutely right. Just, just like having confidence in what you're doing and owning it.

Yeah.

Is important.

Do you ever feel that from a guide? Like you're like, ah, it didn't work out.

I'm this supposed to work out every.

Time I'm the guy. Like you ever get that feeling or do you.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean there's, there's a whole nother level of added pressure guiding because of that. Because you're, you know, somebody's looking to you as an expert and gosh, that's a hard, that's a hard place to be. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you're, you're right that sometimes it just doesn't work out too. But I do love those. I, I love the mistake riddled hunts. The. Or, or the, the hunts that have a bunch of failure like that because I do think they're what kind of sharpen you. It isn't, it isn't like we all have had them. Right. Just the glorious lucky encounter that works out. I mean everything plays in our gamer and it feels, it's, it's a cool thing to be a part of. It feels so good.

If you could like, if you could.

Learn anything, you just had a, you just had a, a cool experience. Right?

Right. Yeah. And I think there are things to learn like, and there's stuff like in the back of our heads that we're constantly thinking about. But you know, I mean, what's the three things you go into a scenario, let's play out. Pick any one of those. Like what's the three things you're trying to like be cognizant of? Like, I mean obviously wind, approach direction where your hunter set up. Like what, what are like maybe the three to five things going through your head as you close into the red zone with a client.

Ooh, closing into the red zone. I'm, I'm a big, I, I like to call. I like the experience of it. Right. And it's, it's just, you know, as we've said, you just kind of pick your tactic and you do that.

Yeah.

I, I believe very firmly though in a quiet approach. Like I want to get very close before I ever call and I, man, I, I feel like. Yeah, I mean that's an experience based thing. I've arrived there for a reason.

Right.

It, it absolutely works to, to be quiet, get close first, then make noise. That's a fundamental, you know, component of, of my hunting. The second thing. Yeah, they, they don't always. That, that story I told earlier Highlights it. It doesn't always work the way you think it's going to work in your head. And so on setups on red zone stuff. Adaptability, you know what I mean? Understand that he might come from the left, he might come loping across the meadow. Adaptability. I think too often we put ourselves in a, you know, we, we're. We think we can be predictive of, of how that whole scenario is going to play out. And we're always, I mean it's always, it's. It's always wrong. Yeah, they always surprise you with, with what happens. And so I think adaptability in your setups is important. And not, not camping out, you know, being. Being fluid and mobile and willing to like, oh, hey, you know, he's hung up. We need to do something. We can't just, we can't just sit here and, and expect him to come through the lane that we picked for him, right? We're gonna. The fight to him or whatever.

What's your ideal client setup like as far as like view distance, you know, I mean like the classic is like, don't set up on big parks because like they'll hang up on the other side, right? That's not giving yourself options. So it's like, oh, if he's on the other side of a park, never want to set up right across from it. Because once you commit to that, like, you're, you have no fallback unless you go around a different way, right? And so like as I think one of the great skills that a guide picks up is like, where's my client going to get a shot? What's hidden enough that the bull's gonna get close, but like, you know, not open, not too open where it's like we're gonna get picked off. Those are those like factors. But like to you when you thinking about. Because I think it is much harder with a client, right? It's like me, I can move like with a client, you're like, do I park him right here? Is this, is this where we're calling him in? So like, what does your gut say when you're like getting close to like, we gotta set up right here? Like what.

What would be my favorite? Cody? I don't know how much mucking around you've done in the flat tops, but our, our environment, we. We've got a bunch of, you know, at high at. At that kind of 10, 000 foot elevation. It's spruce fir woodland, right? With, with little intermixed meadows and parks. That spruce fir is so thick it's so terrible to move through. There's. There's deadfall all over. You can only see 10, 12 yards. It. It's. It's utterly miserable. But when. When you find. When you find elk in there, when you've located elk in the timber from a. From a calling and setup standpoint, it's child's play because that bull has got to hunt you down. He's. He's got to get to nothing for distance to. And. And he. I. I think he feels some security. So, yeah, calling for clients whenever we can catch one that's in, you know, kind of. I would call it bedding cover. Whenever we can catch one that's in that kind of spruce first stuff, you know, it's going to come to close quarters, which is really cool. As long as you've got the physicality to get through it, Right?

Yeah, yeah. And move like. And that's problem is, like, we just got to get there and then it takes you an hour to go like a hundred yards.

Right, Right. But if you've got a bull engaging with you in that type of COVID man, it's a caller's dream because it feels like he comes on a string. And it's probably not the beautiful notes you're giving. It's probably just that. That added security of.

Yeah.

Of being in heavy cover and having to lay eyes. You know what I mean? Having to kind of explore a little more with his feet. Yeah.

I mean, people underestimate that. And I, like, I. I shouldn't assume people don't know this, but like, so many. You see it happen so many times. People are like, oh, this big meadow, and it's like 100 yards across this meadow. And I think this is added when you get into, like, where everything else is thicker. That bull is going to like, look out there and he's going to know something's up versus, like, you know, finding that little bit thick. You know, you can do. Definitely do too thick. Because sometimes you call a bull to 30 yards and you can't see him and like, he just hangs up.

Right.

So, like.

Yeah.

Finding that balance. But I do, like, I think a reason a lot of guys like the midday play is like, those bulls are in that bedding cover. If they're hot through the midday, then you're like, it's almost. I don't say guaranteed thing, but it's pretty high probability because, like, like you said, they got the security. They think they're safe. They're like, they'll come explore. Plus, like, you know, Those satellites are. There's a lot of satellites in there, and they're like, they're doing the territorial thing, right? So, like, it's easy to call them in. Yeah. So I. I mean, I like those. You have to be really. You have to.

When you.

And it seems like when you're like, you're approaching, right? You're like, making your way like, okay, we're about 100 yards, and you see that perfect setup. You're like, man, this is good timber. He's gonna have to hunt for me, but I can, like, see 40, 50 yards. That's a dream set up. And you're like, man, it'd be really sweet if he came here. And that's like. I don't know. When I think about, like, oh, man, you know, you're calling. It's like trying to pick a spot. Trying to pick where we're gonna, like, do. Do the dance at.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of people make that mistake a little bit or try to go too far and they run out of, you know, good zones where you, like, mix of shooting type stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The. The. The tricky thing in. In our territory with that type of COVID is. Is locating, Right? Like, yeah, they're not. They're. They're generally not just ripping to a. Locate beautiful bugle in the middle of the day from. From that type of bedding cover. And so if you've located elk in the morning and then they just kind of disappear into an expanse of timber, you have no midday move as far as I'm concerned. You know what I mean? I. I think a lot of people.

Do.

Storm around the timber hoping to locate elk that way. And, And I don't. I don't love that strategy.

Do you stay out of timber most middays?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Unless I. Unless I have a precise location on elk. Right. Like, if I watched elk go up onto a bench in bed, or I. I heard a midday bugle come off of a. Come off of a bench or whatever. But I. I generally. I generally stay out during the middays, and unless I'm pulled in there by a vocal bull.

Yeah, you follow them in there and you're like, oh, yeah, close enough.

Yeah.

So what's, what's your strategy then? Like, bull goes into some expansive timber, shuts up, like, do you wait till the evening? Do you stay close? Do you try to glass them up? Like, what's happening? What's the play?

Yep. Stay till evening. I'm going to get up somewhere where I can see and hear as Close as possible without. Without, you know, blowing it. Yeah. And wait. Wait for evening.

So what happens in the evening?

So much easier. I mean, you've noticed that, like, the midday move is cool, and I've had success that way, but there's just. They're so much more consistent in their behaviors in the mornings and in the evenings when they're on their feet and moving and cows are talking. And it's just a. There's a lot more energy in. In elk behavior at those times of day. I feel like.

Yeah. So what's the evening play like? Let's assume you and I go in. We followed some elk, but they went into a big flat top, timber chunk. You know, we get across. You know, we still don't know, but, like, who knows, right? We're still in the unknown phase of, like, I don't know where these elk are, but they're in there. Right. Like, what's. What's our play?

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna stick to. I'm a bugler, you know, I'm. I'm gonna sick. Stick to high spots where I can project to those elk in close enough proximity to those elk. Like, you. You can't bugle a mile and a half. And I see guys trying it all the time.

You do, too.

Anybody who's hunted public land has. You have to be pretty close for it to work, especially with pressured elk or heavily hunted. So, yeah, I mean, I'm just. In the afternoon, I'm going to position myself in the neighborhood, and we're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna work. We're gonna move on foot and. And bugle as we go off of high points down towards those elk until we get a response. When we get a response, I'm gonna shut up. I'm gonna go dead silent and try to get there. Once. Once I have, like, a direction of travel figured out, I'm going to get there, cut him off, get close, not say another peep until, you know, I'm nervous. Until. Until I think we're on top of them. And then I'm going to bugle again. And usually that response is. Is, you know, game time. That's. That's when it's time to. To press forward, find shooting lanes and all the other stuff.

So you go and straight bugle. You add cow calls or. No, I'm.

I'm. I kind of straight bugle. I, you know, I calcul some. Cliff and I talked about this on. On his podcast earlier. It. It's funny, but I have a theory that. And I think it's the opposite of what a lot of people believe. I have a theory that bugling is a little bit less intrusive in a. In a herd dynamic. Like, cows pay attention so much. And when you blow on a cow call, every cow looks at you. When you blow on a bugle, really, you're only interacting with that bull. You know what I mean? And getting the numbers down to one that's looking for you is a little less risky in my mind.

I would agree with this strongly, and I will say it's just a more realistic scenario. So if we take, like, what's going on in the woods, what happened before, if we, like, play it all out of, like, you know, you go, and there's a herd. There's a herd, right? There's gonna be satellites roaming. There's like, you know, especially in those timber pockets, like, there's. There's bulls hanging around. They're used to hearing satellite bulls pipe off. New bulls pipe off. You go and blow a cow call. And that cow's like, who's this? Like, yeah, there wasn't. There's no cows or here. Like, you know, like. And I feel like these really. Pocket yellow. And I grew up hunting Roosevelt, so this is like, the odds of there just being another herd of cows in the same timber pocket, I feel like is a giant red flag. Maybe I'm overthinking it. But it's like, to me, I could see your point. I could see the strategy where it's like, this is a very common scenario. There's a herd of elk. There's a. Probably a bull hanging out with them. There's probably two or three satellites hanging around, and those satellites are going to pipe off. Hell, the satellites could change, right? Like, bulls come and go, and so, like, it's nothing to hear a random satellite bull pipe off in the evening. It all makes sense to me. Like, that scenario checks out. And I don't know if elk. I tend to believe elk know that, right? They kind of know who's around. I've heard this theory where it's like, guys. Guys will say, a bull will know which satellites are hanging around. And if, like. And I'm like, I don't know if that's true. Because, you know, a lot of areas, satellites come and go, new bulls pop in and out, right? And so I don't know if I believe they know every bugle, but it would not surprise me if elite cow knew, you know, something was fishy. When they hear cows and A bull absolutely does.

I mean they spend 12 months a year for, you know, 10, 12 years as part of a family unit. Yeah, they absolutely know every animal in the bunch.

Yeah. And it would just seem weird if there was another herd in the same bunch or in the same.

Anybody who's messed with elk has seen that thing where you blow on a cow call and all the cows pop their heads up and look, you know.

Like, who is that?

Yeah, yeah, any. Anyways, and again back to maybe part of my strategy there. Cody is again just the keep it simple stupid thing. Yeah, I've found a little strategy that works. And so I just stay in my lane and I, I, I don't.

Do you try to get aggressive. So like we, we move in, we're like we're getting nervous. They gotta be right here somewhere. Which is an entire skill set of, in and of itself is like, dude, that comment about until I get nervous is so accurate. I think most people get nervous too early because you're like this bull is right here. And then all of a sudden he pipes off. You're like still 300 yards away, but like, you know, you get good at it and you're like, man, you get within a couple hundred yards, like there's gotta be elk right here somewhere. And you, you want to dougle so bad so you pipe off and like what's, like what's the temperature? Like are you just gonna go like, hey, I'm just a random bull in the area. Are you like challenge bugle? Are you like somewhere in the middle?

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. I mean my locate bugle is just a high ringing, you know, non threatening sound. Yeah. But at pretty high volume so I can cover a country with it.

Yeah.

Then I've got one to respond. I'm gonna, we're gonna cut distance down. I'm gonna get him to respond once more. I believe that's important. Important. Getting two responses gives you a direction of travel and in timber where you can't see the elk, you need that. After the second response, I'm dead silent until. Yep. Until I'm shaking in my boots. That, that, that, that the next, the next sound that I'll make. Yeah, I'd say mid, I would say mid level. Not a challenge, but, but also not just a, not just a little wine. I want him to know that, hey, I've arrived, I'm here, you know what I mean? And I'm very close and, and that usually kind of triggers something that usually triggers emotion from him. And then you know, as as a lot of other callers I think do. Then I kind of play a game of just mimicry. I, I'm feeding off of his emotion. I'm making similar sounds to what he's making. I, I just kind of mimic him and mimic that emotion until it comes together.

Yeah. Like, are you moving? Are you trying to wait to see what he's doing? Like, I, I think, I, I think.

That'S a huge thing. And, and that's a thing that I've learned through mistakes, is you want to set up, you want it all to happen here, and you really gotta stay light on your feet. Even as a caller, you've got to stay light on your feet. If it's not working, you need to be ready to adapt and do something. If he's hung up, he's only going to hang for so long. If, if, if he's moved off and past you, you need to get around him before he gets your wind, if you know what I mean? I, I think where a lot of people go wrong is they just, they make camp and they say, this is where the fight's gonna happen. On that final approach, I'm, I'm really light on my feet. I, I want to, I want to stay ready to move and do what we need to do to get a shot.

Yeah. How do you, how do you manage that with a client? Because it's like, I mean, obviously you're trying to keep the client in front of you and like, dude, that's a really hard thing. You're like, no, go forward. No, no, this way. You know, like, no, stop, stop talking. You know, like all that stuff. Like, how do you, like, you, like when you cast that first beagle, are you setting, setting a client up 30 yards ahead of you? Like, I mean, we're getting into the details.

No particular. I'm a, I'm an over the shoulder caller because, because I feel like communication between guide and hunter is important. And I've found that, you know, the old school primos method of, of setting a caller 100 yards back. Just asking.

Yeah.

There's so much miscommunication and, or the bolt comes to the collar. It's just easier for us to be together and be a unit, I find. Yeah. And actually it's funny, Cody, because it's, it's Guides feel adrenaline too. Right? Like, I'm, I'm totally in it when, when, when things are going off, I'll, I'll grab, I've been known to grab somebody by the shirt, you know what I mean? And we'll move that way. We'll move like just together as one. It's got to be annoying for owners, but. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's kind of how I approach it. We, we are one. We're together. And, and when I push, you go forward. When I pull, you stop type of thing.

Do you ever like last minute bulls coming? Like, let's say, like, okay, I'm gonna play the scenario a little bit farther. Like, all right. We, we, we bugle. We did the mimic thing for a while. We've probably moved a couple 50 yards or so. But you're like, you can tell like the, the language in that ball changed. He's coming. Do you drop back or do you stay right with him? And then how do you make sure you're not ending up with a 15 yard frontal? So like, what's the, like the last one minute of that look like, man?

Well, that's so, that's so case by case.

Right?

And, and I don't do it right every time, but, but usually, yeah. To ensure we're going to get a broadside on a bull, to ensure that he's going to come across us as opposed to at us, there's usually a move that happens when we know he's on route. Does that make sense? Yeah. So like when, when I've seen legs or whatever, or when we have some inclination that he's almost here, oftentimes there will be a slight move to, to get that broadside.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, when I say light, I mean like like maybe five steps, you know.

Yeah, just make it the other like the thing I like to use too. And I like, I learned this as a solo hunter, but it works if you're going to be right with your client. Like, and this is, this takes a lot of like, skill and just being around elk, but like knowing when to let curiosity kill the cat, which is like sometimes you gotta shut up and let them find you. Because if you, and you just like.

Call, call, call, call, call.

He comes in, that's, you're gonna get a lot more hang ups at that last like 30 yards. And depending on thickness. There's a lot of variables here. But like so often people want to call that ball all the way to them. But like he's got you pegged then and it's very difficult. So like you gotta bounce and the, the tricky balance is like, you shut up, he might lose interest. And so like you got him coming. Like, don't say. And like usually you can hear it in their voice. Like he's coming, don't say anything because then he's got to, he's got to find you, right? He's got to like look for you. You almost always get a shot if he, he's trying to look for you, doesn't know exactly where you are versus you know, a lot of times like you call that ball all the way to you and like he like pops out of the bushes at 15 yards looking right at you and very difficult. And like so it's, it's one of those things you gotta learn because a lot of times, you know, you'll, you'll shut up and he'll stop at 80 and then he wants you to say that last thing. You know, he's like, wants to know where you are, you know, so I don't know if you do it. Like sometimes I'll just break a branch or like a subtle. Feels like, you know, it's still there. He's still gonna look for you. But not necessarily like I'm not bugling when he's 80 yards away.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean I, I think that is my hang up strategy is just to shut up, you know?

Yeah.

And, and man, it often works, right. You've been, you've been engaging with a bull for 10 minutes or whatever. Maybe you bugled 10 times back and forth when he hangs and you go silent. I, I find that's usually when, when he comes, you know. Yeah, yeah. What's your.

Okay. Bull hangs up, he's 80 yards away and he barks at you win. Still good. Like what's your go to?

Oh man, that's a good one. I've been known. I bark back, right? Like I always think a bark back is good cover. I'll probably bark back and then we're going to move towards him in, in like if he doesn't have eye contact on us, right. I'm gonna bark back and move towards him just, just to see again to the breaking branches type thing. He'll hear those footsteps and, and yeah, that, that might get something out of him that might get him to come. Yeah, once, once you got that bark, it's, you know, all bets are like, it's time to just go. It's time to just.

The shot clock is ticking.

It's about to all blow up.

Have you ever like, how many times have you gotten the bark and then it worked out like you still got a shot.

It's, it's funny. As I was giving that advice I realized, I don't know that I've Ever made that work?

Maybe like on a small bowl? Like, if it's a small bull, you might be able to get away with, like, curiosity. Like, just really. I've had that where it's like a small, Very aggressive.

With Colorado's bowl to cow. Like, we're hunting three four year old bulls at best for the most part in my area. And a ton of spikes. There's just a huge age class of spikes. I. I get super aggressive with those little guys because they'll. They'll ruin it all. You know, as soon as I've got a spike working towards me, I'll go to. I'll go right at him, you know, I'll go right at him and bang a stick against a tree if I have to.

Yeah, you're so much.

Break it. You have to break it up. Yeah. Or it'll come back and bite you. And it takes some. Takes some huevos to. To do it, but you do have to see that coming. Like, all right, I'm gonna get a bark if. If we don't do something. Yeah, all up, you know.

Oh, man. I don't know how many times I'm working on a big bowl and like, just out pops a raghorn looking at me and you're like, I will kill you. I should shoot you out of spite and malice. But like, and like, if you don't do anything, if he pegs you and you're like, just, if I don't move, he'll go away. Doesn't work. Never worked. Never has worked. Like, you're better off to run at him, like, directly, like. Yeah, just run him. Like, run him out of the country.

Like, that's your best kind of fun too, right? It's, you know, we've been so sneaky. It's fun to. It's fun to just get him out of the way. Yeah.

And it does work. Spikes I've had, like, I've gotten away with spikes where they just look at you and then they're like, kind of confused. You're like, just be quiet. We're on the same team. And then like, like, I had a. I was dog in this herd one time in Idaho, and this spike man, he was like, following me. I don't know if he didn't know what I was, but, like, I would call. He'd like, come up to like 30 yards and he was like, kind of behind me, kind of downwind, super dumb. And I was like, just be cool. Just act cool. Just keep going. And like, I'd set up again. And here Comes this spike behind me, like, are we doing all right? Come on, little buddy. Good decoy.

Yeah, I. What I have. I. I have had success before after blowing up a herd. Meaning, like, you know, you're talking about that solitary elk that gives you a bark, knows you're there. What do you do? I have had, like, the. The type of blowup where the timber comes alive with cracking, you know, and we just again, to. I think you called it dogging. Just staying behind those. Those elk as they. As they flee and staying with them. I've. I've had it. I've had them eventually kind of settle back in. And that whole. That. That whole spooking interaction actually kind of like, energizes things. Like, it gets those bulls bugling and wanting to get the cows back together. I mean, it's almost like the. The fall turkey hunting thing where guys talk about breaking up hens and then calling them back.

Yeah, yeah.

I've. I've for sure seen that happen where we screwed up. We spooked a herd, but we stayed with them, and then we had a great call in afterward. And honestly, that happens a lot. People throw their hands up and they're like, oh, you know, that was the only chance we're going to get this week, and we screwed it up. Don't give up. Stay with them.

No, And I honestly, like, the whole running that rag horn off, sometimes that's like, it sparks that'll fire a bull up, right? Like, if you're within range and a bull takes off. I mean, how many times you've been around a herd and you thought they busted and you're like, oh, like, there they go. And then all of a sudden it's like, it's back on, right? And the bull's all fired up. So, like, 100% have seen where, you know, you run a. A satellite raghorn off and like, just. I mean, he's breaking tree. Like, it's.

It's.

It's loud. You know, an elk's running through the woods, and then you rip a bugle and that bull's like, what's going on over there? Like, you know, and he'll come right over. So it can work, like, in your benefit, too. Like, don't think it's, like, over. And another reason, like, if you have. If you have multiple bulls in the area. Going back to the bark thing, if I had multiple bulls in an area around cows, I'm getting close. I'm calling a bull in. I don't know if it's a, you know, Herd bull, Probably not. But, like, let's say he barks. If I just run at him or, like, be very aggressive, two things are going to happen. He's gonna bust, which is not a bad thing. Like, he's gonna bust or I'm gonna get a shot. Like, like, shot clock is on. Don't. Don't get the cows riled up. Like, he barks once, bark at him. But if he's, like, just gonna, you know, it seems like it's gonna go sideways. Move very aggressively, very aggressively at him, and you're either going to get a shot or it's going to blow up. But as soon as it blows up, like, just scream a bugle. And it just sounds like standard elk chaos. Right? That happens. Like, bulls chase each other, crazy things happen. Like, you'll get that herd bull kind of like what's going on over there. And like, that could be a good opportunity, too.

Yep, for sure. For sure. Busting it all up is almost better than kind of busting it up.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah.

Yeah. The worst thing you can do is, like, get the lead cow kind of concerned and they start finding out, like, yeah, bulls do stupid things. They run around, they make a lot of noise. It sounds chaotic. Like, that's pretty normal.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, man.

Good stuff.

Yeah. I don't know what else. Any other tactics or tips, advice that you like? Man, I feel like we really crushed it there, but anything else you got.

To add to it?

Yeah, boy, I don't know. You know, like, like I said, I think the biggest thing is confidence. I think a lot of do it yourself hunters lack confidence. They lack confidence in their calling. They overanalyze scenarios, win scenarios.

Have.

Have confidence in yourself and try things. And I think eventually you'll arrive at a better place than, than. Than just thinking about it inside and out. Um, yeah, get out there and get boots muddy and, And. And you'll learn so much about elk, you know, 100, man.

I, yeah, huge believer.

Get.

I tell people all the time, like, get at bats. Like, get in there, get close to elk. You have to be around a lot of elk to learn all these things. And if you're timid, you're just not going to have those encounters. Like, and you're not going to learn much from it. Like, it's far better to be a too aggressive and tone it back down than it is to, like, be timid and, you know, like, foot around the woods and never see anything. Like. But it's like, man, I think you're right. Too many people are like, oh, because magical forest horses that are like, I'm in them, you know, they're like, what do I do?

What.

What call do I, you know, do? And it's like, man, just a. Like, I love your strategy of like, just here's.

Do that.

What you did will work. Like, your strategy will work. Just rinse and repeat that until you figure out a bunch of stuff and get good at that. And then, like, you can slowly add things. But, you know, you listen to guys who have multiple tactics. They're very good at a lot of different things that took 20 years to figure out. Right. And like, even, even then you only have, you know, a handful of good tactics. But it's like, figure out one good play and just try to do that until you get good.

Build your gut. So, like, the best hunters I've been around operate almost entirely on intuition. You know what I mean? On. On just the. This, like what we should do right now. That's not a. That's not a. That's. That's something you have to learn physically, in person, usually through mistake, sometimes through success.

But.

But to develop a gut, you just have to, you have to go every time it feels like you should go. And. Yeah, I don't know. Again, that's overly simplified. But, but yeah, and, and it, it. It's only built through repetition, you know, and, and repetition. An enemy of repetition would be this lack of confidence that, that keeps you from trying things.

Yeah. Be high agency. Just get done.

Yeah.

Be a person of action. Yeah, it's really good advice, man. Yeah. Well, best of luck this year. Oh, the one question I was gonna ask, like, if someone's going on a guided hunt, what makes a good client? And then from the client's perspective, like, how do you. What's the best way to learn from a guide?

Yeah, so I get this a lot, Cody. I would say like, like probably 50% of our, our guided clientele are, Are approaching us with the interest of learning a skill set. Right. It isn't about. And honestly, we're the wrong outfitter if the goal is just killing a bull. Like go do a ranch hunt or something. This is, this is over the counter, wilderness, horseback style, elk hunting. And a lot of our clients want a book with the focus of learning. And man, that's a, that's a guide's gem. Right? We love that guy because he's, he's usually open and receptive and kind of there, kind of present. I would say if you're going to do a guided Hunt as much as possible. Try to be process oriented rather than results oriented. Your guide will appreciate that and you'll get more out of the experience. That's, that's kind of my, my biggest, my biggest piece of advice, really good communication is important with a guide. Like, like you just have to get on the same level, talk through things. It's, it's not a, I think a common misconception is that it's like, hey, you're just going to follow me around for the week and do what I ask you to do. That's not it. It's very much a feedback loop where, you know, there's, there's just good communication. We're all on the same page.

Yeah, that's huge. Yeah.

Yeah. Guided hunters should. Absolutely. If you come into the, into a hunt with the idea that like I'm open to, I, you know, I have my, my incoming skill set already, but I'm open to learning stuff, man, it would be fun. I, I would love, personally, I told you I've never hunted out of state. I, I'd love to go do a guided hunt to better myself. You know what I mean? I'm a career guide and I would love to spend some time with somebody else and learn their method, you know?

Totally, totally. I love that side of too. Like to me, I'm just like a student of the game and I like, yeah, I'm the same as you. It's like, man, you go hunt with someone else, like, oh man, this is cool. Like different areas, tactics like things like that. As far as like, so flat top wilderness out guides. You guys, are, you guys, are you booking five years in advance, two years in advance? Like how do, if someone was interested in going with you guys and learning and go on this type of hunt, how would they do that?

Yeah, yeah. So, so Flat Tops Wilderness Guides is owned by LKS Outfitters. We, we have three outfits around the state of Colorado. Primarily elk in game units 25 and 24, but also sheep, goat, moose, lion, bear, everything under the sun. Generally, if you're looking at doing a guided hunt, you should be planning a year to 18 months in advance. If you can find an outfitter that's ready to squeeze you in and you.

Probably don't want to go to.

Yeah, we also do a big part of our business is drop camp style hunts where it's essentially a DIY hunt. We're taking you back to a outfit, a canvas wall tent with horses and mules and, and outfitter support. We give you some waypoints and we're packing your meat in and out. Those drop camps are usually about a year in advance. We'd be booking for 20, 26 right now. Easy to get tags. It's a very accessible elk hunt. I know you talk about at bats, man, over the Counter Colorado is, is your go to for that. And, and I love to tell people, you know, iron sharpens iron. It is hard. It's absolutely hard. I mean, I think the archery success rate in the unit that I guide is 8%.

Oh, wow.

And, and I, I don't want to BS anybody about that. You're gonna have to work for elk. I think that's kind of a gem too though. I, I, I think it makes better hunters in the long run with, with, you know, just a better depth of experience.

If you had a tag, you had a tag, you had 10 days to get it done. What are you, what do you think your odds of success were, man?

So I've like, like the past, I haven't held an archery tag the past three years, Cody, because I've been so active, you know, managing and fighting in the outfit. Prior to that, I was, I was killing an elk every year and I was spending approximately five to 10 days hunting. It is doable, right? It's doable to get to a point where you kill over the counter elk every year. I'm, I'm proof of that. But I, I know my area intimately and, and I hunt incredibly hard, you know. It's doable. Yeah.

I love it, dude. I always, I haven't hunted Colorado. I've always wanted to do either a film or just like a project where it's like I go take an over the counter tag and see if I can get it done in like a week or 10 days. I, I really don't love, I mean a lot of guides do a week long hunt that maths out DIY. I think you need to be minimum of 10 days. Like it's going to take you that long. Because what you're not factoring is like, I go with you, you know where the elk are. You like, you got weeks on me. Like it's going to take me a week to even get a tenth of where you are as far as knowing where elk are, where they go and all those things. And so like you have to factor in like almost scout time on top of it. So I'm like huge believer if you're going to do a DIY, go 10 days. Like, you don't, you don't have the knowledge, you don't have the Local knowledge unless you go like drop camp or something.

Several years ago when I, when I had more time and I was, I was hunting every September hard for myself, I, I killed an over the counter bull after 18 days of hunting and it was one of the coolest, I mean hands down my best. I had so many interactions with elk, I had so many missed opportunities, so much heartbreak. Hands down, like one of my coolest hunts ever. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. The more time you can give it, the more successful you'll be. We, we don't all, we all have jobs and kids and other things to tend to. But yeah, I'm with you on, on a, like to have realistic expectations as, as a DIY over the counter hunter. I think 10 days is fair.

Yeah.

You know.

Ah, well cool. Well dude, thank you so much. We'll put a link, you can hook me up with a link to wherever people can go to check out your guys website if they want to book a hunt or whatever. But yeah, thanks. Thanks again. Best of luck this year. Really appreciate the knowledge man. That was good.

Cool. Thanks Cody.

All right, see you man. Alrighty guys.

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