What’s Your Strategic Advantage? Elk Hunting with Cliff Gray

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This is the Elk Hunt podcast. Home to everything elk hunting. I'm your host, Cody rich. From fellow DIYers to elk hunting legends, we have elk hunting stories, tips, tactics and more to get you pumped for elk season. Join us every week for great elk hunting content. Today's episode of the podcast brought to you by Onx Hunt. If you're not an elite member yet, you really need to check it out. Because more than just a mapping service, Onx has created an entire hunt planning system. And with the hunt research tool, and on access to Hunt and Fools, E Magazine and even Terrain Ax, these are the ways I'm planning better hunts. I'm going on a bunch of really cool hunts. And if you want to go on more hunts, you want to go on better hunts, have having that membership is going to help you do so. Check them out, use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 20% when you upgrade to elite. Tons of great benefits. Today's episode brought to you by Tricer. They make gear that's fast, light and simple. Tricer is taking the industry by storm. And in fact, you should have seen the booth at Sheepshow. It was packed. Every time I went by there, people loving it. So it's cool. Cool to see. And it's not just hype. You know, I've said this for years. Drew, one of my buddies, he is a mad scientist. And the speed at which he can come up with things and reinvent by solving problems, you know, that we as hunters have is absolutely insane. More than just tripods, Drew and his team are launching some really, really cool products coming up. So if you haven't yet, the new Bipod, it's epic. I got to hold it. I got to see it. This thing is insane. It's gonna crush. If you want to check it out, head over to tricer.com and head to the new new products, or I think it's pre orders tab and you can check out a bunch of the new products. One of those is the Bipod. Another One is the 360, which is really cool. It's a feature that he built into a tripod he showed me, and I was like, dude, this needs to be on every tripod. Basically gives you the ability to micro pan. So you just like twist this little knob and it perfectly pans left and right. So if you glass a long ways, you. You need this thing. It is such a sweet setup. And now you can put it on any tripod. So head over to the website tricer.com check out the pre orders section. A bunch of cool new products coming out. And if you're looking for a tripod, they make some of the best tricer. Fast, light and simple. Tracer.com use the code TRO and you'll save yourself 10%. All right, buddy. Welcome back to the podcast. It's been a while. I'm stoked to have you on.

Yeah, yeah, dude, it's always fun talking to you. Thanks for having me, man.

We're gonna nerd out on some elk stuff. But first, and I don't even know if you've seen this because you're kind of out of the country right now, but I'm sure you've probably had this question pop up to you about Colorado changing the draws. So have you heard about this? Like, so I'll, I'll preface it the piece that I'm most interested in your opinion on because I've heard mixed statements about how this will affect it. Colorado is moving and correct me where I'm wrong here, but like 50% is going to be preference points. 50% of the tags going to bonus points.

Yeah.

Which like, in theory guys are saying like, well now your points are useless because basically you only get half the tags. Like the, the. The goal was to not have such so much point creep, but in theory, like took half the tags away from that preference point. So what's it going to do, in your opinion, to. To all these Colorado units?

Yeah, so the. Dude. So I, I've like been in the thralls of this. I'm like fairly up to date on, on this stuff, so. Because, dude, I got a thousand questions because I have a lot of long term clientele that hunted with me a lot over the years and a lot of guys that like accumulated a lot of points in Colorado and I got like 50 of them calling me about this because in some ways, Cody, it was kind of out of the blue. I, I didn't, I didn't know that they had a working group and they've had, you know, they've had this working group working on it for a year or whatever. I was just naive to that, but I think most people were naive. But anyways, I. So first, the big one that you're talking about for, for elk and deer and antelope, you know, the big primary species that we're all actually really concerned about in Colorado, it used to be purely preference point based. So most preference points got the tag if you applied for that unit or whatever. So what they did was they took 50% or they're gonna take 50% and all this is going down 2028. But it doesn't really matter because it's pretty much a set thing. So things are already going to change. It's not like you can like a lot of people like oh well I'm just going to burn my preference points before 2028. It's like, well yeah dude, every, it already changed like in everybody's decision tree. So. So you got to kind of figure out like you're, you're not ahead of the, the snowball now. But anyways it's. So 50% or 50% of the tag quota on the draw units is staying as a preference point solely based system. The other 50% is going into a bonus point system. But the bonus point part of the, the tag allocation, it's still going to heavily prefer preference point or people who have accumulated preference points. So it's not a pure random. The 50, the 50% that's going to bonus. So it's like a. Going to be like what a lot of states do with their bonus points and that's that as you, you know, as you have more points in the, you'll, you have a higher random chance. Does that make sense?

So like in Nevada where I mean it's not going to be exactly Nevada but like in the, you know, you get a point each year you, you don't draw and then that kind of gets pulled. I think in, in Nevada I. Correct. Is it squared or.

Yeah, yeah. So. So. Dude, I might, I might screw up the details. Cody. I do. I. My belief is that it's not square. It's not going to be squared in this pool. All it is is if. Yeah. Like I think at the base level, dude, it's like let's say you have no points, no bonus points. I have 10 bonus points. Points, whatever. And when on that random side of the pool, that 50 bonus point random side of the pool, I'm gonna have 10 raffle ticks tickets in it. You're gonna have one that's like basically what it's going to look like. So it's still going to, it's still going to give me an edge as somebody who has accumulated points. So I wouldn't say like points are dead, but it doesn't really matter. That doesn't really matter because that's like a distribution thing. The fact of the matter is that if you had been accumulating a lot of preference, like if you were on the top end and you were like trying to get these really good units and you had like they were in your, you know, they were, you know, in your reticle. They were like a couple years away. You just got screwed because, because they took, they took a big chunk of your opportunity and they dispersed it in this bonus point deal. And so without a doubt you just got screwed. I don't know, I mean we could do, we could talk about an hour about this Cody, because I am like, I find it absolutely stunning that they took that approach and their, their result or their, their idea on is well, we have to do something because what has happened is we got like you say there's all this point creep and there's no incentive for new people to get into building preference points or all of that. They have no chance of ever hunting the good units. Yeah, that's, that's a, that's an issue. But the problem is, is like you're going to screw the people who have had like the most loyalty and in a sense they've put the most equity into the system. Right, right. So that's a really, to me that's a very unfair approach. And the thing about it, Cody, is there was alternatives that were more fair. Like for me, for me I think a really good compromise would have been to allow point banking. Are you familiar with point banking?

What's that?

Yeah, so point banking came up, I don't know, like maybe 10 or 15 years ago in Colorado and they did it for a year and it was a cluster. Like it didn't, it didn't work. Right. But it was, it was because they executed it improperly. And what this, what the system is, it's, it's like you have 20 points. Okay. And in point, in the ideal point making world, it's a free market. Right. Like I'm, Cody, I got 20 points but I don't want to use all my points. I want to bid 5 points on unit. On unit, I'm just making up random numbers but like unit 20, I'm going to bid five points for a third season buck tag on unit 20. Right. And so like I bid that and then if I am at the top, like you know, they just line it out on the bids of your points, then I just lost five points but I retain my 15 points for future usage. Right. And that's a really, I mean, I mean the thing is, is like in a sense, yes, if you move to that, you would still kind of screw over the guys with the high, high points. But they have an alternative, right? Because now they could say I'll do at least they're allowing me to, you know, because a lot of guys are stuck, dude, A lot of guys are stuck with 25 points and they don't, you know, they're okay, they would love to hunt a five point unit but they can't because they're like, there's like this sunk cost deal. There's like the whole psychological thing that they get over, but there' the practical thing. Like they're so close to these hunts it wouldn't make sense. But if they could do point banking then they could be like, well dude, shuck it. I'm not going to hunt like that. I'm not going to hunt 44 for deer ever. But I'm going to go, I'm going to go have like five nominal buck hunts over the next three or four years. And that would be fair. I mean they've put in for the system, you know. So I, I, I think it's really unfortunate they didn't go that route. And we could, I could dive into like why it was so poorly executed the first time. I think that's the most fair, I personally think that's the most fair system for points there is. But it's never, it's not implemented anywhere because it's too complicated. And you know all this. And then you know, the other big one is like, I mean dude, we could get in to this and it's gonna, it's gonna show like my, my true colors of, of like maybe, maybe, maybe some of like my, like my thought on every policy, like social policy policies or whatever, dude. So I don't want to get like make myself sound like a wacko. But the thing is, is dude, like you know, you can't even transfer your preference points. Like, okay, like I, I understand some of the argument of like why you can't transfer your preference points, but there's a part of me that's like, look, dude, if I've been, you know, if I like the example I use that everybody hates is they, they hate it that a guy with kids they, they hate it that a guy with kids would put his four kids in for preference points, right? And all those kids are gaining points. Now let's assume the system is rational where you have to pay for kids preference points too. I think you should, I think, I think, I think you should. So you know, it should be equal, right? So you have to pay for kids preference points too. I put in my three kids and then it turns out that, you know, let's say my two daughters become gigantic hunters, but my son doesn't want to hunt at all when he's like when he's 16, 17, 18 years old. And I say, okay, well, you know, I'm just going to transfer my kids. The son that doesn't want to hunt, I'll transfer them to my girls, to me. That's fair. You know, I don't, you know, I, I mean, it's like, hey, we're investing in the system.

At least, at least I like the party system of this. And there's.

Yeah. And it's a, it's a variation of it. Cody.

Yeah, go ahead. In Oregon, I hypothetically maybe had buddies who would buy like their grandma points. And you know, so grandma's got 10 points, but it's a five point tag. So me and grandma put in together, we both get the tag. Of course, grandma doesn't even go, but like it took me 10 points, you know, so the average it, you know, had to over buy and essentially, you know, essentially. But the thing about even with Colorado, like say my buddy Craig and I want to go to Colorado and you know, he's got whatever, one point and I got four points. It's like, man, we could go on this two point hunt but we can't because Colorado, you know, goes back to one. And so like that kind of, it makes it frustrating. And again, I think adds to the problem of people stacking. You know, just get too many points and you have to go like, you're like, I don't want to burn them on this. Yeah, I burn them. If like, hey, Cliff and I are gonna go hunt together, I'll burn my seven to year one. Like, yeah, screw it.

It sounds like, yeah, dude, it's the same exact deal. Cody, like the group thing is so, it's so fair. You know what I mean? But the problem with it is it's all these states and it's not just Colorado, you know, or I should say all of them because some of them allow that. But the issue is, is they're all afraid that, you know, Cliff's got 10 points and Cody's got zero points. And I go to Cody and I say, hey dude, let's go hunt this area. I know you know it really well. Let's share my points. And then from the state's perspective, they don't, they always look at it from a negative, right. They say, oh, what this is, is, this is like an in kind transfer that to Cody because he's getting, he's getting around the guiding. He's getting around the guiding rules and regulations. It's like, dude, yeah, sure, there's going to be people who are like, like they're, you know, they do that kind.

Of stuff will always be.

Yeah, right, but, but, but dude, you're, you're gonna like, you're taking away something that would be very fair to so many people for the fact that 5% of people are going to bastardize it. Like, who cares, man? And in the end, like, in the end, somebody paid for the points.

Yeah, it's like we shouldn't have banks because someone robbed a bank one time, so we shouldn't allow banks.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's like a variation of that. So I get frustrated with it, dude, because I'm very like free market oriented about it. And I know that's touchy. It's touchy with wildlife and then there's also practical issues with it. You know what I mean? I get it.

Yeah.

But, but it's, it's really like you end up in these situations, like, like this deal in Colorado. Like there's some people who, dude, have invested an enormous amount of money there that they just got screwed.

So what are you advising those guys? Let's start there. It's like, what do you advise the guys with 15 plus points and then what are you advising on? Like the four or five point guys? Like if you had clients in either one of those brackets, what's your suggestion? I mean like, let's, let's, let's start by saying, okay, the OTC thing went away. Like that kind of changes a little bit. So there are a bunch of people going to be, you know, cash and points for archery tags. So they're still going to want to hunt, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm kind of curious, like, what's your advice, dude?

The thing is like, it's hard for me to gather up, I think like a solid, you know, just direct piece of advice, Cody, because there's so many moving variables and there's going to be so much like substitution effect and stuff. I don't know what's gonna, I don't really don't know what's gonna happen. I think like, I've played with this a little bit and I don't know the math, but I could speculate on the math as it relates to the non resident over the counter tags becoming draw tags. I, I think that like I came out early on this publicly being like, well, you know, this may really affect people who have been, who have been building points and hunting Colorado at the same time. Because what's going to happen now is to ensure that they can hunt, they're going to have to put these tags as their first choice. I, I don't think that's probably the case actually. You know what I mean? I don't know because, because the thing that's crazy is nobody knows. And the CPW seems to be pretty close lipped about it. Nobody knows if they're really going to change overall quotas, you know what I mean? Like. Right, okay, sure, sure. It went from over the counter to draw, but are they just gonna put those quotas so high, particularly in the beginning that it doesn't matter, like there's just left, there's just a glut of leftover tags. And the thing is, is there's, there's a, there's a precedence for that. You know, I mean I had like, I hunted, you know, I outfitted in areas that, you know, really, I mean maybe 16, 70 years, 16, 17 years ago, they were established as draw first unit rifle seasons. Maybe it's 20 years ago or what, whatever, it's been a while. But I think the intention was that those would be true first rifle season draw elk hunts. But they never were, they were, they were pseudo over the counter bull hunts because they would be a thousand leftover bull tags, you know, I mean like, you know, and so is that what's going to happen with the archery stuff? I think that, you know, kind of listening to people argue that, to me, I think they're probably right because I don't know the math and that seems like a pretty logical starting point for the state and then they might, might adjust from there. The problem is there's like, there's a little risk because if you don't, if you don't burn your points and you don't start putting those tags is your first choice at least here in the next couple years while, while things are occurring, there's a chance that you don't end up with a Colorado elk tag, which is for a lot of people is a big deal because it's like, it's like their guaranteed hunt, you know, so that part, dude, I don't have a clear answer. I, I, you know, maybe, maybe. I guess my answer is you could probably continue to get away with like the status quo of what you're, what you've been doing. I don't, I don't know for sure. As a resident you can, you know, for res. I mean they still, they're still going to have over the counter archery tags. Now the other component of this like where you're at on the, on the, the, the point scale for elk and deer. I think that, I think that if you've been shooting for like a really high point unit, like one of the top 10 units or something like that, or top 20 units or whatever, and you've been, you're up there 17, 18 points or something and it's com. Coming down the pipeline or I think that you probably have to reassess like where you're going to hunt because, because you're, you're not. Whatever you were going for because of this new hybrid draw. You're, you're, you're not going to, you're not going to draw it or you.

The, the argument against that would be, you know, now that there is basically a random, like a lot more random tags, you know, it'd be curious to see what's, you know, my initial thought is like, let's always. Usually unless there's like a clear distinct advantage of putting in early, which I don't see in this system, I would probably shoot for, you know, whichever unit's gonna have enough random tags, you know, like. Yeah, obviously one random tag is probably in a pretty low odd still. But like some of these units are gonna have 5, 10, 20, 50 random bonus tags.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think Cody, like, dude, I don't know the exact math. I think we're, I think we're both right. I think, I think, I think you're right. If you're a guy who is like, you got 10 points in Colorado or something like that, you kind of benefited from this.

Yeah.

If you wanted to hunt, really good stuff because now you have a chance. If you're in that, you know, in that, you know, that mid level zone, like 10, 15 points or something like that, you might be able to start like throwing hail Marys at the harder hunts and you probably have a higher probability chance of drawing them because of this, because of this random element. I'm just saying that if you're, we're dead set on the high, high point ones, you might want to like, you might act well, well, it's like you, you might want to, you might want to actually start trying for an even harder one because now you have a chance or, or whatever. But probably, I guess you just have to change your plans of having like a certain hunt in two or three years. So I don't like, even now that you brought that up in my mind, I'm like, I don't know how this math is going to like, hard to say.

And I think, you know, like, anyone who's. I, I think the days of, like, I'm gonna draw this in, you know, five years is even gone. Like, even that. And that's the part of the problem is, like, even if you had 18 points doesn't mean you're gonna draw in five more years. Like, it's just the probability still gets low. And so it's like, well, I mean, now it's a little bit of luck. I said, you know, if you want to look at the glass half full and you had 18 points and you feel like you got screwed, well, I mean, at least now you had more of a luck side, you know.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're gonna draw anyway, right?

Yeah, no, I agree, I agree with that, man. No, I, I, I agree. And I think that's, I think that's how, like, in terms of fairness, how it kind of breaks, is going to break down. Cody, like, highest point guys, they for sure got negative net out of this middle tier guys. It's going to be a little bit of both. And then folks with very few points, big win.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

So one of the things we were talking about before we jumped Don was choosing a unit in E Scouting and we were talking about, you were saying that, you know, E Scouting's fairly overrated. I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit. But the point I want to get at is, you know, when it comes to choosing a unit, this has been pretty top of mind. I had this question from a lot of guys, and I think it's easy. So Jaden and I did a podcast last week and we were talking about how people rely too much on certain metrics. Whether it's tag numbers, whether it's success rates, whether, like, they get married to some of these metrics and they go all in and like, it shows because everyone ends up in the same unit. Like, you're like, everyone saw those stats and they all choose it, chose it, Right? And there's a lot, a lot of great units that don't really shine on anybody's radar and on these tag strategy things, they're not in Epic, they're not in the Hunt and Fool. And you should have great at bat hunts. You can have great opportunity hunts. Right. When you think about that, that guy. How do you, how do you think about units? Is it all word of mouth? I mean, you were an outfitter for so long, so you kind of have this, like, built in knowledge that most people don't have.

Yeah.

What Advice can you give on, like, selecting units?

Yeah. So hopefully I try to, like, stay on topic here, Cody. So I, I, I would say, like, so on the, on the first thing you said, like, I think that E Scouting on this subject matter, like, choosing the unit is overrated. I think some other, like, tactical things within E Scouting, like finding glassing points, like all that, once you have a spot, I think are super. Like, I think there's a lot of value add there. But on this one, and, dude, I get, I'm sure you get it a ton. It sounds like you do. It is the number one question I get, like, okay, Colorado, all of these over the counter. Or, you know, I got one point there's 30 points or there's 30 different units I can draw, whatever. Like, how do I choose number one question for sure. And dude, I don't think, for me personally, I don't think that E scouting is your first. Go to what you just said, though, dude, like, any insider knowledge to me is like, superior to E Scouting anything. Dude, it could be. You could be sitting in, like, Traverse City, Michigan, at, like, in your church, and you're sitting next to a guy and he's like, hey, you, you start talking. It turns out he spent 10 years of his life elk hunting, but he hasn't hunted in 25 years. And he starts telling you about this mountain range and this drainage, and he's like, I used to find elk here. I used to, you know, this is. And he's like, he's got all this good knowledge he's willing to share with you. And then you go look at the unit and it's like, over the counter at one point. Like, go there. Yeah, because you already got the good stuff, dude. Like, that's the good stuff. So, So I think that is, like, highly dominant. And if you got, you know, friends with knowledge of a unit or that sort of thing, if you've got a cousin who has a cabin there or a buddy who has a cab in there. So it helps you on logistics. Like, all of that soft stuff I think is more useful than dwelling on Onx or even go hunt. Like, you know, so when I say that onyx and go hunt, I'm basically splitting them into, like, draw data. I know they both do both, but I guess a better way of saying it is draw data and mapping data. So, like, those two things are a secondary way to pick a unit. And I think that those two things. Cody. Dude, I'm going to be such a dork and use a financial analogy. Just, just Pathetic. But I think those are very prone to like and a very efficient market, right. Like everybody looks at the draw data and they analyze it and they think they're so smart and they do thousand little filters and then they're like based on the success rate and the bull, the cow density and all this shit. Like this one is undervalued. But everybody else already did the same thing, right? So like it's. So it's all going to come into the draw and all that. And then dude Onx on like the mapping side of things. It's actually happened on the micro level too dude. In my outfitting areas Cody, there were spots that I would call like, like onyx holes. So there would be areas that were really remote, you know, like really remote. But the trail was a certain grade and it was a certain mileage and you know it, it just had all these certain variables. And dude, like if you went in there it would seem like on the first like that you're going to be there all alone. But you go in there and all the intense e scouters are in the same spot because they got the same conclusion. You know what I mean? So yeah, I guess that's my thoughts on it. I mean tell me, tell me why I'm wrong and I want to hear, I want to hear yours did.

Okay, so you're not wrong. I will say the one thing you said that I have never publicly said and I would be curious if you would back this or not. I think it is easier to get 50 year old data than it is fit 5 month old data. Like so people are always trying to get the latest and greatest. But you know what, elk have been in the same spot for many years and there are some exceptions to that rule. But by and large when I go back through history like you know, I'll talk about where I grew up and historically the big bull areas were big bull areas when my dad was a kid. They were big areas when my grandpa was a kid. Like these are spots that are just like they know, right? And to your point, like asking an 80 year old where he hunted, you're gonna get a lot more information than if you're like you know, asking Joe from the fantasy football league where he hunted last year. He's never gonna tell you, he's gonna tell you the wrong stuff, right?

Yeah.

So like you know, trying to get old data. That's an Interesting concept. I 100 agree. Like the more you can scoop up, right, like people saw something like being in coffee shops, like you know, just Talking to old timers like that is this is one of the most underrated things about door knocking that nobody in the elk space does is like knocking on doors for usually gets you intel. Like, you may not get permission, but you'll always get intel. And like, that is like gold, right? And I think, you know, say you live in Michigan and you're hunting in Colorado. There's still ways around it. Somebody, you know, hunted elk in Colorado. And I think the, the, the other point I would like to back that you said, like, that's a good starting point. It's confidence. Confidence is everything. Like, I'm enough, I'm enough confident that if you're like this year you have to hunt unit 72 or whatever, like you just threw a number out there. It, like, it narrows it down and I'm gonna figure that unit out. Right? Like, right there's elk there. Like, as long as the numbers are decent, it's probably okay. The way the one argument I will go against you on for me is I look at those things and I look at the map to figure out if I can beat most people because it's like some units I can't. Like, Guy sends me a unit, I don't know, six months ago, and I look at the unit, it's a decent sized unit, it's got a pretty good wilderness, but really it all funnels into like three spots. Like, that's kind of all there is. And I'm like, I don't like this unit because it all funnels into these three kind of core areas and there's not a lot else, you know, like, it's just one of those spots that I'm not going to be able to outwork people. I'm not going to be able to like, find the nook. Um, you know, I don't necessarily want like what you're talking about where people find the spot that's like eight miles in and it looks perfect on the map. So for me it's like, is there enough mobility? Like, is there. Can I figure out a hustle game or can I figure out something different no one else is going to see? That's the only, that's the only difference. But I will say, yeah, like, intel great. That's number one. Right? And so anytime you can be like, one time I hunted X unit, that's a good starting point and you have the confidence in it. Like, you know, there's out there. I think there's a lot to like just go off of, just with that.

Little bit of data yeah, And I think I. I don't know, Cody, that I, I disagree with you on the point of like a competitive advantage. That's what you're talking about, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, I think, I mean, I agree with you on that, dude. If you have some, you know. Well, everybody's got a competitive advantage to some extent, right? And so if you have one, like, choose. Choose where you're going based on that. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's weird, dude, because I, for instance, and I think it's a real cultural thing right now. If you're like a road based hunter and you've got a $40,000 side by side, you're kind of shunned, you know, I mean, kind of like, you're kind of like, whatever. But dude, it's kind of. It's a competitive advantage you have. So choose. Choose units that eat up normal vehicles that just draw full size trucks. You know, Find somewhere that has roads all over it, but also has. Have roads that just make people crap their pants with fear and just destroy shit. And then go there with your advantage, you know? Go there with your advantage. And then if you're a guy who can backpack 15 miles straight and you're like following Cam Haynes's protocol, don't go somewhere that's covered in roads. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. So I think. I don't. I think we're probably closer on that one than, than, yeah.

Yeah. The one thing it makes me think of is, I think it's common knowledge, like, well, what kind of hunt do you want? And so, like, you kind of look at the pros like, well, I want this kind of hunt, I want that kind of hunt. But that also brings everyone kind of to the same units, like, let's say Colorado, for example. Like, if you were like, well, I want this type of hunt. I want to be able to glass, right? Like, I want. I want good elk numbers and I want to be able to glass. Well, that sure limits it to like a quarter of the units instantly. And then, like, you know, the more like useful things. And this is how people get into all being in the same areas, right? They get overpopulated because it's like, well, I can't really get that tag. And so, like, you. You run through these checklists of figuring out units and you kind of all end up in the same place. And I think even good hunters do this. Like, I remember when I first moved to Montana and I was like, the same Unit I want to go to. There was a lot of really good elk hunters are there, you know, and it was. It wasn't like anyone was copying anyone. It was just like we all saw the same things and we all kind of went. Sure. Same areas. Is Colorado like that, or is it. To me, Colorado seems more. I mean, it's all over the place. There's a little bit of everything. So it does feel like you can throw a dart at the board and get lucky.

Yeah. I mean, you. I mean, you have. It's a similar dynamic, man. Like you. You have. You have people end up in the same spots. I. I noticed it more with deer, you know, Cody. And what's weird, man, is that with mule deer, man, in Colorado, I found that. It's weird, dude, because we all, like, try to kind of crap on a little bit of social media and stuff. That seems to be a theme. And, you know, is this guy as good as a hunter? Is he, you know, this guy or whatever with mule deer, man, there's a lot of people on social media who are big buck hunter, big mule deer hunters, and they kill big ones and they're famous on social media. And in real life, they're good at it. Like, they're real good at it. And. And there's spots across Colorado. I mean, I know several spots. Some spots that I hunted and guided in that, man, you get two or three, four, five of those type of guys in there, and freaking. It wipes it out. Right. You know what I mean? Like, it wipes it. I mean, they'll clean them out, you know, for. For a couple seasons, and then those guys will kind of migrate somewhere else. And. And they don't. None of. They don't talk to each other, but they. They kind of end up in the same little spots, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And so, yeah, the same thing happens, you know, there. I don't think it's too much different. You know what you get in Colorado is. You get kind of. You get. Well, what happened in. In career there is. You get. You get where. There's been a lot more overlap in the far back between the horse guys and the backpackers. Because one. One thing about Colorado, man, is it has. Like, I was. I was in the flat tops, right? And it's one of the bigger. You know, one of the. The bigger wilderness is there. I think it's. I think it's just behind San Juan's. But anyways, it's one of the bigger ones there. But, dude, I mean, there's. There's a small part of it that's a little too much for back backpack hunters nowadays, but really a small part. You know, maybe, maybe 10, 15% of it is really held aside from a practical standpoint standpoint for horses and mules, maybe 20% of it. But I mean if you look at the Bob Marshall, you look at the, you know, you look at the Frank Church, you look at the sell like a lot bigger chunk of that stuff. You know, some of the big ones in Wyoming is, is still really, you know, horse and mule country from a practical standpoint in Colorado, man, like as people have become bigger and bigger backpack hunters in better shape, better gear, there's a lot more compression in the, in the pretty remote stuff where, where those two groups are competing with each other.

Yeah, I mean I think you see that everywhere. But I, man, I, I do think the pendulum is kind of swinging where you have a little bit of both. Now I think the secret about you know, being three miles in where no one is is like kind of gone away. But I think it's also spread people out a little bit too. I'd be curious. So one of the things I try to teach or preach is at bats, just getting at bats. And I've kind of always been pretty hard on Colorado, naively so because I never elk hunted there. I've deer hunted there, but never elk hunted. When do you think, do you think that Colorado is still an at bats state, as in getting good reps at elk hunting, like it's going to make you a better elk hunter. And then the second part of that question is like, do you think these changes are going to affect that?

Yeah. So I'll answer that Cody, and tell me if I'm kind of like off base on, on what the intention of your question was. I, I think that I. In terms of building your skill set, there are some great things about Colorado and then there's some things that leave a lot of hunters with a big hole even if they hunt a lot. What, what Colorado will make a guy very good at. Like let's take, I mean let's narrow it down to like September archery elk season. Right. Colorado. If a guy, well one, a guy can hunt there because of the tag availability. Right. So he can just get like the, you know, the at bat because of that, which is nice. And then he can hunt in the same area quite a bit or adjacent areas or whatever. So you can really nail down an area. I think that in its own right is a skill set. Right. Like if some guys just bounce around all over the place, hunting all over the place. And they do pretty well. But if you, if you get where you can learn an area and then you can compound that knowledge year over year, you'll start killing a lot, a lot more stuff. And then also when you go learn another area, you'll kind of know what to pay attention to. The, the other part of it is just straight mountain, like mount, like mountain man type of skills, backpacking type of skills. Like Colorado will give it to you because you got to try so hard because the, the, the elk do get so dispersed over an enormous amount of habitat in a lot of these wilderness areas that if they're not there, you do got to go find them, you know what I mean? And you do got it. It's like it could be a very grueling thing and I think it makes, it makes very good mountain guys in that regard. And I saw that amongst my guides. Now the hole can be the, you know, specifically for September is you know, calling in elk, vocalizations, patterning elk, all of that stuff. I mean, dude, a guy can hunt a wilderness area in September in Colorado for 10 years straight and he, I mean he might only be in to vocalizing elk over that 10 year time, like 20 times, 15 times. So he don't, you know, he doesn't, you know, low at bats. Yeah, like, like he's not gonna be, you know, tuned up on those aspects of it. And the reality is like most those guys that are really good mountain guys and they are used to hunting animals that are just scared shitless and not acting normal, right. Oak are most of the time, they really shouldn't even bother with all that stuff. They should just try to kill stuff spot and stock because that's their skill set, you know what I mean? So that's my thought on it. I guess there's pros and cons in there. What are yours, Cody?

No, And I think 100% you're right. I think you get pretty low at bats in Colorado. And I just told someone the other day, you know, I think Colorado's always been good because you get a lot of tags. But let's be honest, if you're not getting at bats, if you're getting one elk encounter per week of hunting, like it's just not a good at bat even if you can get a tag, right?

Yeah.

And so I think in my mind Colorado shifts from an every year tag when I can't draw one of my five year tags to like restructuring the entire long term strategy of becoming a good elk. Hunter into like, okay, I hunt Colorado every three years or whatever. Like, it just changes and I, I go to a different stage each year. I think that is evolving and changing to me. I've always been, you know, about like, what are the skills you're learning? You know, if you just put the calls away and figure out how to find elk when they're not vocal, like, that's a great skill, right? Like, I think if you can find your niche and maybe it's like hunting elk over 10,000ft. Like, if I was going to go to Colorado, like, that's kind of one of the things would want to do is like, man, I kind of want to kill an elk over 10,000ft.

Sure.

Like those high mountain elk, they act different, they do different things. And what you're going to learn is that, you know, you got to get in front of those elk. You can't just call them back to you. You can't just, you know, scream at them, right? And you're going to be hunting them, I don't know, somewhere between elk and mule deer. Right. And so, like, that's a cool skill to learn. But if you go into Colorado thinking like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this experience where I just call an elk and it's like, that's not gonna happen and you're just gonna get frustrated and you're really not gonna learn anything either. So, you know, focus on, you know, is. And, and you know, call the hunt what it is. Like it's a, you know, it's a different hunt, dude.

I think, I think that's a fair, fair assessment and I think it kind of throws back to one of the conversations we had offline, Cody, and that's that it's like you're aspiring like a lot of archery guys, they're aspiring to be in like these rut fests and calling bulls and stuff. And dude, it can happen in Colorado. But dude, I've guided a lot of archery hunts there and it's pretty, it's an anomaly, dude.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like it, if you want to become, you know, if you're, if you're the next guy who wants to do like, like Chris Roe esque, you know, vocabulary of elk or whatever, like don't do it during hunting season in Colorado.

I mean, do you think that even exists anymore though? Like, what state in under three point tag does that exist?

No. Yeah. No, it doesn't. That's. I mean, no. Yeah, no, it doesn't, dude. It's like, it's a different. I mean still cool to know all that stuff, but. Yeah, no it, it doesn't. I mean you gotta have high to do to really do the vocalization thing and become a pro at that. You got to be in a high density elk all the time.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Well, this kind of tees up another question. So if you're gonna go back and you know, think about it in the context of like, if you're gonna build the perfect elk hunter, what is the skill that you wanna create or enable? Right? And maybe that's like you got a new guide. He's never really elkhonid. You're like, hey, I want you to like learn this skill, focus on this skill. I tend to believe it's probably not calling anymore. I, to me it's a great tool in my tool chest. I grew up calling elk. I love, I love it. Great. And I have that skill set. I don't use it nearly as much as I used to, but what skill would you go and teach a new hunter? I want to focus.

Yeah. To, to, to kill elk in the modern setting on tags that are available to like the average guy. Is that the context we're talking about?

Yeah.

So dude, for me, I'm very biased in this, Cody, but the number one skill set is just to be able like tough it out in the mountains for long duration. And honestly, dude, like being able to roll up under a fir tree and like just like in your sleeping bag and like power through a night, you know what I mean? That's, that's like the, that. I mean, dude, that, that's very easy for me to say, but it's really hard to acquire that for a normal guy, you know what I mean? Just being like, just comfortable in the mountains, you know. Because dude, that's like for low density elk hunting, you just, you get more opportunities by do being capable of that, you know what I mean? And it has nothing to do with hunting, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like if we define hunting as, you know, interactions with the animal or whatever that is, you know, it's not really that. It's, it's a, it's a different thing. I think that is a huge one. I think, you know, outside of that it's a bunch of other things added, added together, you know what I mean? And I, and I, I did. It's not really a skill set. I guess it's more of like a tactical thing or a concept. But I think it's Also having the patience to learn an area. I. That's. That's just so obvious when I say that. Like, you know that, and everybody knows that, but learning an area, learning a couple of adjacent units in. I mean, that's for the average dude, that's how you're going to kill a lot of elk.

Yeah. There's a. If you follow closely to a lot of really great elk hunters, most of them will say something to the effect of, I'm not a great elk hunter. I just spend way too much time doing it. And sure, listen closely, because, like, that's. That's the secret, right? Like, figure out how to hunt 30 days and you'll kill an elk every year. You look very successful, right? Like, oh, yeah, yeah. It's easier said than done. Like, anyone who's, like, you know, I know some really hardcore hunters, myself included, man, like, day 20 sucks. Like, it just. This is not fun anymore.

And.

Yeah, and I think that is an acquired taste. Some of that comes from, you know, treating it as a marathon, not a sprint, you know, and all those things. But dang it. One of the things you said, I just. I was gonna add on to that. I forgot. Missed it. There's something about. Oh, yeah, you're saying learning an area. What does it mean to learn or to know an area? Like, what piece of that are you looking for?

Yeah, dude. So for. For me, man, it's being able to know. Like, everybody goes into a unit with a plan, right? They got plan A. Yeah, that. And most guys stop at plan A. Guys that know a unit or a broader area, they have, like, they have plan A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And they know when it makes sense to go from A to B to C to F to whatever. And they gain a lot of efficiency with that. Right? Like, they've seen these conditions before, and they're like, man, in these conditions, we found elk here. Let's go back there. Like, that's a gigantic, like. Like, shortcut. And then the other component, I mean, our variation of that is they see elk. You know, they bust elk. They see elk go this way. Where. Where. How can I handicap where those elk are gonna go? You know what I mean? That's very valuable. If they see elk in their actual daily pattern, it's like, okay, last time I say I saw bulls feeding here, you know, after the rut on October 30, I killed him in this timber, right? Like, right. The super useful. Like, to me, that's knowing. Knowing a unit really well. And I. And I know it's very easy for me to say that and, but it's kind of ridiculous because it's like, well, dude, how would you get that type of knowledge? It's like just time, you know what I mean? Just a lot of, a lot of time and like a lot of, a lot of trial and error, you know.

I will say I, I thousand percent agree. You know, there's an interesting thing though that if you ever go, say you went with Cliff to one of his areas, right? And here's he's guided these areas for a long time. The spots would probably look different than you would have guessed. So if you were new, you'd look at and Cliff like, oh man, they always go right here and you'd be like, really right there. And like, I feel like that's always the case when you learn a unit. You like, you're like, man, I would never expect them to be there. Be like, that makes so much sense in retrospect. Really, really, really good advice for anyone who's like kind of doesn't have 30 years of experience to be like they're not always where you think they're going to be. Like they don't go. Like it doesn't always make sense. Sometimes it's like this little tiny pocket that makes no sense to some. You know, when you're just looking at a map, be like, that's where they go. They always go right here, whatever it is. And oh yeah, once you know that, old timers, I'll call you an old timer. Old timers have that kind of knowledge. Like you're like, you start to look for it. So if, if Cliff or I, whoever was to go to a unit, let's just say you and I go to late hunt in Arizona or you know, we go to New Mexico, we're going to be looking for those pockets, that pattern that we've seen in the past. And it's like that really helps. So like you get a good knowledge of a unit, you start to learn those habits. Like you had said, like you say you go to Colorado, you learn what elk do in these units. You could go to any state and be like, oh man, in Colorado they always did this, this kind of looks like that. You know what I mean, dude? It's just like pattern recognition.

Yeah, for sure, dude. I, I, I feel like, yeah, I mean I've developed some of that for sure over the years and I'm sure you have too Cody. But I've been around guys in the elk on, in deer hunting world that are amazing like, old dudes that are just like, have that, have that knowledge at a level that's like, you could put them anywhere, and they're kind of like, oh, this is Elkie. And it's like, well, dude, you've been hunting that 12, 000ft, like, at timberline, and we're in a bunch of pinion juniper. How do you know this looks elky? And then they're like, they're into elk. You know, it's like, it's like, you know, fishermen are the same way, dude. Yeah, like a fisherman, Like a fisherman. You could take a fly fisherman, like some old crusty fly fishing guy has been guiding fishermen on the rivers in Colorado, Montana, Wyoming. Right? Like, and he's been guiding these guys for 40 years, and then I bring them down to the Caribbean, and it's like, he, like, knows where to cast. Like, how does he know where to cast?

Right?

It's like, it's like all these variables that are, that he can, that are very quantitative or not quantitative. They're like, they're things that he can describe, and then there's a bunch of other things that he can't describe. You know what I mean? And I, it for sure, something to it, you know, what do you think.

Is more important, having a mentor or just time in the field?

I don't, I don't, I don't know the answer to that, dude, because I don't know. I, I, I don't, I don't know, man, because I think, I think if you're blessed with a mentor that is like, gonna, you know, walk you through an area or hunt with you in an area, I think that is like, the perfect situation. You know what I mean? I think, I think mentors that are, you know, maybe there's a, there's a couple degrees of separation in terms of, like, the type of hunting they did or the hypotheticals they did and you. I think they can actually, I think they can get people screwed up a little bit sometimes, you know what I mean? On, like, concepts that may not, May not apply, or they're, you know, or they're just, like, making things up or whatever, you know how. Yeah. So I don't, I don't know the answer to that, Cody. I wish I. Yeah, yeah, I wish I. Because you get shortcuts from a mentor, you know what I mean? Like, you can get shortcuts that you don't have to necessarily, like, earn. And then I think, to. One of, I think, like, your broader points, man, is like, if, if it takes You. Five years to get into elk. A big chunk of that five years was kind of a waste. You know what I mean? Like, if you, like, dude, there's guys, you know, I have a little. I have a little membership group that was actually kind of motivated by. By your. By your group and the structure you had. So I have that little group and I noticed that there's guys that got. They kind of got a little luck on their side and they chose a unit where in the first year or two they got into elk, right? And then you got guys that they've been seven or eight years at it and they're frustrated and they haven't really been able to stir up elk. And you're not. Not at the exact same level. But those guys that were in Delk pretty early, they got a pretty good. Pretty good leap on the guys that had been at it for a while. Does that make sense?

A hundred percent? Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, there's a lot that goes into that. There's confidence. There's just like, basically, once you get confirmation that you're doing the right things, man, things can go fast and, you know, you can be doing all the right things and getting the wrong results. And that's just the fun of elk hunting. It's like you can be doing everything perfectly and getting false negatives. Right? Like, so essentially, like, wow, this, you know, I'm not. I'm not killing elk, so that must be the wrong thing as they do more of something else. So. Yeah. So early success can be huge. You get to play again at bats is so big. I'm a huge believer in, like, man, focus on at bats. And I think there's a lot of people that they want to go back into unit draw unit selections. They. They're like, I'm just gonna hunt this really crappy unit until I can get this really good unit. And I'm like, no, that's the opposite approach that I would, like, teach, right, like, or like, suggest is like, get into decent units. You need to learn in those good units. You need to learn when you're getting at bats, you're getting reps with elk. Not just like, man, I'm gonna grind it out in super crappy units and then I'm going to draw a good one and not know what to do. Do I? Yeah, I see that.

I don't know.

I see that too much. But, you know, everyone's strategy.

Yeah, dude. So, you know, it's a. It's an interesting one, I think, to talk about. I guess I Guess culturally we'll call it like amongst elk hunters because you kind of have this division, you know, I mean Cody, amongst guys that are hunting public land, hunting the tough stuff, and then you got the guys hunting the private, hunting the ranches, hunting like the crazy, you know, the third, the thirty thousand dollar hunts on the reses and all that stuff. Right. Well, I have guided guys that have been blessed in their life to hunt those type of hunts a lot. You know what I mean? They've been able to do all the good haunts and then they draw a public land tag and I'm guiding them. And a lot of times, you know, it's like a. Could be like a pretty hard unit, but whatever. But dude, there are certain aspects about those guys. Like sure, you know, you could say, oh well, maybe they're a little soft on the mountain stuff or whatever. Like that's individual by individual. But they will be really proficient at certain things that the guys have been hunting. The tough stuff aren't good at. Like, like, like just straight, like moving. Yeah, yeah. Like a bulls glunkin. You get drawn before he freaking comes out here. Right? A guy who's been hunting good his whole life, like you don't have to even tell him, dude, he's like drawn like a lot of times, I mean on the public land stuff, you have guys that they, they haven't done it enough. I mean, to your point.

Yeah.

And it's like, oh, dude, like the bull's there. It's like, well, I didn't get a chance to draw. It's like, dude, that bull was glunking in the trees like right? He's like, what the hell? But he just hasn't done it. He hasn't like done it enough. And I've seen that a lot, dude. Like there are skills that those guys have and they get, they get so on from a skill set perspective. And I fling crap at guys too because I'm like, oh well, there don't get exposed. Okay, whatever. There are a lot of things that they're really good at because they've had that exposure, you know?

Totally, totally. Yeah, that's an interesting concept too. And again like I had a conversation with Dan Alder about like, you know, do you think it's worth people going on gutted hunts just to learn? Because you know those guys, I have guys too that I've talked to that have gone 10 years without killing an elk. And it's like, man, there's a lot of bad habits getting created that.

Yeah.

And to your point, like, man, if you're only getting in the red zone once a year, it's. You're not. You're just not proficient at that last little bit. Like, getting drawn, getting a shot off, like, those things. Like, if you go three or four years and you don't get in the red, like, never get in shooting range of an elk when he comes screaming in, you're gonna forget where your bow is. Like, you're gonna forget which side to draw. You're gonna be like those influencer chicks and be upside down. So, like, yeah, you gotta, like, you gotta have those reps. So I. Yeah, I don't know what the answer is because, I mean, obviously it's like, yeah, you want to be great. Oh, Connor, go buy a $30,000, you know, reservation tag.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there's. I think there's. I think it's a really interesting topic, man. I do think that there's some transferable knowledge from other species. And I'll get. I'll get crap flung at me on that. But, I mean, a guy that goes out and shoots a bunch of pigs with his bow, he's going to be more proficient just killing stuff with his bow. You know what I mean? Guy flies to Hawaii and goes, you know, chases Axis deer for a week. Like, it's pretty damn good. Warm up, you know what I mean? Like, you know, so there's, There's. I think there's some transferable things there. Do the guided hunt ones really? I don't know the answer to that, Cody. Even having, you know, been somebody in the business, because I'm tilted like archery, I think, to your point, it's really nice for guys to be injected into the thick of, you know, what they have dreamed about and, and get some exposure to it. And I think a lot of times, a lot of guided hunts will do that. There's consistent density, so they'll get into that. And maybe it's just, I mean, let's be realistic. I mean, good hunts right now like that are 15 GS. That's what they are. You know what I mean? 10 to 15 grand at least for consistent archery, you know, vocalizations in my. From what I've seen, that's what it is. But those sort of hunts, you can get that if you're bow hunting, there's probably a lot of value to that now, you know, if you're a rifle hunter, it's harder, dude, because you can go on guided hunts and, you know, you could just go shoot a big bull. The first day it does, it's not doing anything for, for your skill set development, you know what I mean?

One of the things, idol sets are very different too. I mean, gosh, this is a whole rabbit hole too. Like the skill people knock on rifle hunting over archery Like I'm huge fan of both. They're hard in different reasons, like.

Yeah, me too.

What you have to be good at with rifle hunting is finding elk. Like you need to find the needle on a haystack. Totally different skill than pulling. Like once you find them, you know, it's pulling the triggers. Nothing. Yeah, but with, you know, archery it's all about how you move through elk, how you, you make those final decisions. Like finding a relatively easy in archery season right now, back to your point. It's an interesting concept. Do you think like it? Well, first of all, is there anywhere, let's say Colorado where you can pay, you know, an access fee or something? Like I'm gonna go hunt raghorns. Like I don't need to kill even a 300 inch ball. I'm gonna kill it a 266 point, but I'm gonna get interactions. I'm gonna get at bats in the red zone. And archery hunting, is that, can you, can you do that or is there like a place that you know of and then like what is it?

Yeah, I mean you could, you can, yeah, you could do it. It's 10 to 15 grand. Yeah, that's what it is.

I mean I can buy landowner access in Colorado for cheaper than that though.

Yeah, well, I mean, so there's these, there's these idiosyncratic situations that probably exist where you can buy a landowner tag, you know, certain units or whatever and you know, trespass, access and that sort of stuff, but it's not as readily available as people think. And the other thing, Cody, is there's tons of variability in it because if those, those value opportunities, if they're good and more importantly, if they're consistent, they're not available. Right. You know what I mean? Because guys, guys will just, I mean guys just, they've, they've sucked them up. Not, not even just the outfitters, like just hunters in general. And if it's like a group of dudes who have a ranch locked down or access lockdown, if two of the people in the hunting group, you know, you're too old to hunt anymore or just don't want to do it anymore, they find, they find other people because they, they want to keep control of it. That's pretty common, you know, Practice there. So it's tricky, man, but like the guided hunts where you're getting into vocalizations every day, 10 to 15 grand and 10's low, dude. Like probably close to closer. Like 12 to 15.

That's insane.

That's just. Yeah, this is the market, dude. Like, I mean there's a lot of hunts right now, Cody, like in the range of 6 to 10 that are really low success rate hunts, hard hunts, you know what I mean? It's just, that's just the, that's the elk hunting market right now, you know? Yeah.

I mean, I feel like it's. It wouldn't, I wouldn't say it wouldn't be that hard to get vocalizing elk. I think anywhere is gonna be tough. I mean it's just when I think about di. When I say diy, not over the counter anymore, but like, you know, say one to two point units, places you can hunt every couple years, like, and then consistently getting into elk, that's. I mean, it's a very tough thing to do anymore.

Yeah, yeah, sure. No, yeah, for sure, man. And there's, and there's a lot of demand. I mean there's a lot of demand for those, these type of hunts, Cody, outside of the market that we're talking about, I mean there's a lot of guys that just, they don't care about the draw and public land. They're just not doing that, you know what I mean? So they, they soak up a lot of those, A lot of those hunts. I don't know, it's. It's a hard one, dude, because I get asked about it a lot too. Like, hey, I wanna, I want to go on, I want to blow it out. Want to go on one guided hunt. So I build up a bunch of knowledge and I think it's like a really tricky thing to navigate because it's like.

Well, I agree.

I mean a lot of outfitters, it dudes. Again, another cultural thing. A lot of outfitters and guides, the culture and I think it's changing a little bit. Like I'm biased, but the stuff I do is like oriented towards like this whole thing. Like you want to answer, ask a question, you want to be annoying the entire time with questions. Like, that's part of our deal. It's all good, you know, but the culture of guiding, outfitting, Cody is. It's not that, dude. It's about, it's about, it's very goal oriented. Right? It's very much about getting people into the opportunity to kill an animal and then mission Accomplished. It's not about, not about training guys, you know. So I think it's tricky to find that opportunity. I'm not saying it's. It doesn't exist, but I think it's tricky.

No, I. 100° and like, there's a giant difference between good and bad outfitters. Like the, the. The gap is so ginormous. I don't. I told Dan Alder this tangent. I don't feel comfortable telling anyone because people ask me, first of all, I don't know any, so that's hard. And then the second of all, it's like, man, I just, I don't know. Like, it's tough. Like you said. Like, I do think there's probably some value in that if you could find the right one. Most, like you said, most are kind of on the McDonald's model where it's like, get them in, get them out. Like we're, we're churning seats as fast as we can if we can get them in two days and like, great, you know, guys get a break. Everyone's happy. It's like, ah.

Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, dude. And I'm not like, dude, I'm not trying to be like on a high horse.

Cody.

Like when I was guiding an outfitting dude, like, that was my model. Like, it was like if we were, you know, we're out in these camps in the wilderness, like, we go find a legal bull and you and Cody doesn't want to shoot it. It's like, go back to camp and find and get one of the other hunters. We're gonna kill it. You know what I mean? Like that, that's. That, you know, that's how it goes. So yeah, you know.

Yeah, I hate to end on a doom and gloom, but yeah, you know, I mean, it's at bats. I do think there are opportunities out there and yeah, I think it's very achievable. The other thing, like, I think people get worried about this whole tag situation. It's like, man, I could still get more tags than I have time for, so. Oh heck, I'm a little spoiled. Like, I live in a state I get. If you don't live in a state with a. Has elk, like, that's. No, that's that. But I do think the opportunity is still high. There's still.

Oh yeah, dude. Dude, particularly Cody, if you're adaptable, man, like back to. Back to like, hey, are you. I mean, you don't have to glass them. You can just still hunt areas. You can, you can. You Know, there's a lot of areas that are real conducive to pushing elk with, with buddies. Like, there's all these things that nobody, that nobody really talks about that are awesome and super fun.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And so I think if you're adaptable, there's tons of opportunity, man.

Awesome. Give you a second. Go check out your Cliff's YouTube channel. What's your. Is it still Pursuit with.

Yeah, my YouTube. My YouTube channel is just under my name, Cliff Gray. But yeah, if you look up Pursuit with Cliff, my website, Pursuit with cliff.com. if you type that into YouTube, it all comes up. It all comes up, too. And then my Instagram is.

Are you doing the paid community still?

Yeah, yeah, I'm still doing the paid community. And it's the URL to that, if you want to go directly to it, is PwC huntsquad.com. it's fun. It's. It's growing, and I need to, I, I would love to talk to you more about, like, you know, it's, yeah, it's fun, dude. It grows in spurts is what I, what I'll say. And so it's. It. I'm figuring it out still.

Are you doing some hunt planning, too? Because I know you were at some point kind of like helping guys plan their hunts and whatnot.

Yeah. So we, so in that community, we do a lot of that and we do, like, basically, we do a lot of zoom calls and stuff as I try to stick on a schedule of once a week on the paid side of that group. And that's a lot of what it is, dude, is talking about all these subjects that we, that we just talked about and then. But I don't do any specific, like, hunt planning with individuals. But yeah, dude, I, I, I, honestly, it's because I don't, in a way, like, I don't really, I don't even know what the rules and regulations are on doing in Colorado. But also, dude, like, I don't know every state in every place. And I'm sure you, I'm sure you get that, Cody. Like, it's hard. Like, guys will ask me about, you know, like, hey, what do you think about this area in Washington state? I'm like, I'm sorry, dude. I don't know.

You know. You know what's funny about that is I don't know if I should say this on the podcast. I did a while, it was last year, I think Sean Mellon and I did a podcast and I said, like, hey, if you want me to take a look, you know, at your hunt plans or whatever. I will. And I had like. And I kind of felt obligated to do it, but I had a. I was overloaded with E Scout chat, which was actually really, really good. And it gave me the opportunity to really dive into like the problems that the listeners were actually having and see just like, you know, get a concept. And it was one that was when I really figured out that, like, man, I hate to use like these guys as a general rule of all listeners, but it's like these guys aren't looking big enough. Like they were. You know, a lot of the plans I was getting were like, you know, like you said, kind of plan A maybe plan abc, but it was still like I could hunt all your A. I could hunt A through C in two days. Like, you know, that's. Yeah, you know, it's like so just getting to understand, getting that feedback because like, you can sit here on the podcast on our soapbox and talk about, you know, that's top of mind for us, but it's not top of mind for other people. So the communities are a really good place to kind of get that feedback and be like, oh, what are your current problems? And like, see, like, oh man, I'm thinking about doing this, or I was thinking about doing this way and you know, getting insight into that has been. It's been good.

Yeah, no, for sure, dude. Yeah, I'm with you.

Well, cool, man. Well, yeah, we'll put links to this in the show notes to everything, but thanks for jumping on and I'll let you go back to fishing.

Sounds good, man. I appreciate it. Thanks, Cody.

Alrighty, guys, thanks for tuning into the show. If you like this episode, do us a huge favor and share it with one of your hunting buddies. Also, if you want a free hunt planner, be sure to go check the link in the show notes hunts. It's a hundred percent free. You can download our hunt planning tool, which is a great resource for kind of keeping track of all of your hunts, your hunt plans, your points, all those things. Pretty great resource. Go check it out links in the show notes or you can check our website www.elkhunt201.com.