iRealization - Season 01 Episode 05

Good morning.

Hi.

Actually, how's it going?

Good, good, good.

Yeah.

We have Tanay and Sarah now.

Good morning. Somebody new as well named David Meng is joining.

Hi, David.

Hello. Hi, David. David.

Hey. David Meeng.

Hello. Hello. Can you hear me? Good morning. Or evening, depending on where you are. Yes, morning. Welcome to a weekend chat. David, where are you from? Virginia. I'm actually very close to Brandon. Started chatting about a few topics, but if there's nothing today new, we can just ask folks. So I'm gonna like randomly pick on people like Sam, for example, since the volunteers for these types of things. So Sam, tell us, kick us off with something that you've been thinking about with regards to all of this.

I actually. So what we discussed last. Last week was something much higher. And also we had a separate discussion over cause and effect. I was just thinking these two basic mortal things that we revolve around in this whole drama called as multitasking, Unitasking, law of attraction.

It's called life. The drama. Yeah.

Yeah, the drama. So I actually gave it a thought and I wrote a social media post.

About how.

You get dreams done. So the whole concept revolved around you having the eureka moments. So I was defining. So you have a eureka moment when your mind is at ease. And I defined it as, wait, let me just reread it because that will be better for me. So it reports, subject is in pursuit of the eureka. And I was like, great ideas don't just happen, however it may seem. Eureka movements are not random at all. Ideas always happen every single moment. And ideas happen based on what's on your mind. The more you multitask, the more ideas on your mind, the more ideas will come to your mind. Simple logic. But that's not what we want. We don't want a hundred ideas. What we desire is that one idea that changes everything for the better. That one idea to escape the narrow, crowded lanes of the rat race and merge onto the limitless autobahn. A zeitgeist with your signature all over it.

So.

The more. The more you multitask, the more scattered your ideas will be. All these ideas feel great at first glance, but then as you think harder, the idea sounds stupid, naive and flawed, incomplete. Something feels missing. It all comes down to cause and effect. An idea is seen as the most creative answer to a question. The weaker the foundation of the question, the weaker the answer. Similarly, the powerful the question, the powerful the idea. Greater the cause, greater the effect. So why not try a different strategy for a change? Unit asking. Take your dream, your life goal or your office project, whatever you're most passionate about at this point of time, but only one. That's the rule. Spend a day on it. Tire yourself out. Spend days on it. Ask the most basic questions, the most stupid questions, all kinds of questions, till you have one very meaningful question. A question that stands on top of a lot of homework. And when your mind has done enough, get some rest. Give it time. Let it sit undisturbed. Be patient. It's like baking a cake. It will rise when it's time. Can be the next time you shower, you dream, or sit on the pot without your phone. And just like that, Eureka, you will have that groundbreaking solution. It will happen, and I assure you it will. So never underestimate the sheer will of a limitless mind. And that's how Law of attraction works, by unit asking. So, yeah, this is what I just came up with.

After all, everything is quite true.

Yep.

You know, The only, the only thing I will say is there comes a point where the question of multitasking and unitasking has no relevance. A notion of a task is only with respect to its outcome. Otherwise, what is the task.

The cause?

You have an expectation, you know, something will happen, otherwise there is no task. Right. Multitasking is when you have so many expectations, you want everything to happen, then your mind is scattered. Unitasking is, oh, I'm going to try to have only one thing and all that, but it's again, another idea based thing. No, I will do multitasking. I will not do multitasking. I will do unit tasking. Whereas the ideas, like you said, come and go on their own. You know, so to see who is the one who is doing the task, Monty or uni? The question of cause and effect and free will are very, very closely intertwined. You know, for there to be cause and effect. Free will is a given, means there has been something you did, somebody did, which is the cause. And it presumes that there is an effect, that there is something that has occurred. Both of those are needed there for you to talk about cause and effect. Right. But we also discussed last time, which one comes first because or the effect. Yeah, that was just what I was going to ask. So the answer, typically, typically people say cause comes first, cause creates the effect. Right. Cause is the cause of the effect. But is it really that?

I strongly feel that the present is what dictates the past.

What I mean by the cause and effect. Yeah, What I mean by that is only when you observe the cause. I'm sorry, only when you observe the effect. Do you search for a cause? Right. The cause is never observed until you see the effect. Means the effect comes first. Yes. And then you imagine the cause, right? Because otherwise it's neither the effect is nor the cause is. If one doesn't observe the effect, then the question of cause doesn't arise. Right? So the.

That's fantastic.

Right? So it's very simple, right? Cause and effect ends the minute you see that. Which one comes first? So karma, the law of action and reaction, right? That is what we are discussing. Cause and effect, action and reaction, the inevitability of action. And then a reaction is also inevitable. But when both of them are taken to be just the process, the actual happening has no relevance, right? It's simply a process. This happened because of the previous thing and the previous thing and the previous thing. So the very question of free will does not arise.

So isn't it like, because cause and effect is just this idea that we're really adhering to. It's not a real thing in like the big sense?

Because. No, you have to examine it.

Where do you see more arbitrary, where you draw the line of what caused.

No, first let's talk about effect, right?

Where do you say who caused what?

Caused what? Yeah, I'm asking you now. Let's say that you're walking on the street and you have your favorite car is parked just where you left it. You know, you went for an ice cream, a beautiful new car, and suddenly you see this idiot person driving like a crazy person and just completely side swipes it, right? And the guy is talking on his phone while driving, taking a turn, like on the wrong side whatnot, and he just completely swipe swipes your car. Okay? Now what happened? What was the cause and effect. Like?

Where do you want to start?

Where do you want to start? You can start anywhere. You can start anywhere you want, right? And the reality of what you say happened will be missing. You will just essentially make it up. How dare you do this? You did this. Blah, blah, blah, right? Can't you see how you're driving? You don't know how to drive all those things.

It's really subjective because at best I can only say the cause from my perspective.

Hey, Brandon, you're breaking up pretty bad, dude. Your audio is cutting in and out pretty bad. We can't hear you say it one more time.

Does my.

I guess I was just saying that it's. It's our.

You.

You at best can only speak from your perspective. Where it started even.

Yes.

What about where the guy Started.

It.

Doesn'T matter where you go, right?

And if you continue on that logical path, then you would have to have woken up at exactly 7:15am that morning and felt hungry because you ate at the previous night, the certain time that you wanted to go and get that ice cream. At exactly that time, right? So who was to blame for your car to be parked there exactly when he was going to Sideswipe. So go ahead, go ahead. Yeah. So I guess what we are saying is observation of anything is the effect, is it not? One sees something as a happening. That determination that something has happened is based on what? If you just walk in the market, a lot of things are happening. Lots of conversations, there's that. So many things go on in a farmer's market, you know, big one, you walk through it, you come out on the other side. So many things have happened during that walk, but you don't know them, right? You don't. You never paid attention. So so many things happen, but actually you don't know nothing happened. You have no opinion on those things, right? But suddenly you have an opinion on something. You noticed, you see one guy punching the other guy in the back of some farmers market stall and immediately you have a reaction, right? How do you punch him? And all, all. You know that that punch was the least smallest thing that I did. That fellow would have murdered his mom or something, right? And he's forgiven him. And one punch, that's it. You see? But your opinion has only to do with what you observe. So the effect is, oh, this person punched him. How dare you. Right? And the cause is what? This person is an asshole. He's like that, right? Or whatever. No. All opinions. No.

Essentially saying that no narration is required whatsoever. And whatsoever, in fact, narration being. Being the largest of our own. My own issues. Yeah. So watch it.

So effect is observing. Yes, effect is observation. First of all, you observe something and the cause of that observation is the fact that you can observe. That's all. Finished. The observation is the cause. That's all. No other cause. If you couldn't see it, it wouldn't happen. That is the ultimate cause. The fact that it can be known is why it happened. If it could not be known, you wouldn't know it and this question wouldn't arise. Is it not?

Will you say that sentence just one more time for me?

People ask, why did this happen? If they ask, okay, I get all this, but why is it like this? The answer to that is, why not?

Well, right? Simply because it. Because it's been seen.

Because it can be, it's possible, right? Everything is possible. That's all perfect. There's nothing that's not possible. You see, so the question of surprise or reaction or narration comes only when you think something is not normal, so to speak, not natural. You know, you react only when it's non natural things. I mean, if you go and take a dump, there's nothing to say natural process. You don't give two hoots about it. You don't argue with yourself. Did I go right? Did I flush it correctly? Right? There's no discussion, it's not important, it's critical. It happens every day, multiple times. But you don't think about it. So it's natural, nothing to think about. A natural process. We don't discuss our breathing or anything that everybody is doing because it's a natural process. So there's nothing to react about a natural thing. It's only when it's unnatural that you react, right? So slowly, slowly you realize that what is not natural, Is it not everything natural, pandemic, Is it not natural? Did we not expect it based on all our actions? How we eat bats and shit and all kinds of stuff. Don't we, you know, have built California on top of a limestone, you know, oven, where every day, every year the thing gets so hot that you get fires. I mean, that's a natural process, right? So there's nothing to react to really, is there? Oh, you can react now though.

I was going to say this is perfect. It's the most comfortable response is, is just like, oh, cool, good, relax.

That's what it is. It's the ultimate relaxation, you know, and then when you talk about still minds and all these things, it is not a still mind. Still mind is, you know, it is a clear mind because the clarity is lost when the mind is moving. You know, if you're on a train Moving at some 80 miles an hour and you see another train on another track, you know, if you don't know your own speed, you cannot find out what speed the other train is at moving at, you know, it's not possible. The reference itself is moving. So you can never as certain what you see as another movement. The train, your own movement has to be stopped for it for you to know really what is the other movement. You know, the seeing cannot be from a moving thing. If you yourself are moving, what you see will appear distorted. So when the mind is not moving, then one can see clearly what is there. If the mind is always moving, you will be seeing it through the lens of that movement. Otherwise, the car, there was an accident there. You know, two. Two people walk out of the ice cream shop. One is Brandon, whose car it is. The other guy, never seen it before. They both see the same thing. Reactions are different. You know, which one is the correct reaction. One guy says, oh, shit, that car is really. You know, I wish it hadn't happened. Both those guys, so sad. The other guy's like, fucking, hey, what the hell? Like, right? So like, so the two reactions out of the same external event.

Amit, did you want some ice cream this morning? Is that use ice cream on your mind today?

Possibly. Possibly.

Yogurt seems to be your thing. Thank you. This is, like you said, very relaxing. It releases a lot of mind pressure is gone.

Actually makes you think more on the things that we do that are not just examples, but the realities for us.

Yeah. So over time, you will find that you're in that relaxed state where innovation can happen. Because everything is happening, you know, but it's being distorted by what is in the mind. And what is in the mind is the accumulation of knowledge and ideas. And when I say accumulation, that's because we all want to know. You know, we all want to be knowledgeable. We want to know knowing. I know that, you know that I know. That is the problem because it's a limited knowing. You cannot know the reality. Actually, you can only know your interpretation of it. And now that we have seen, all interpretation is false. What is the use of limiting yourself? Go ahead, Ben.

Yeah, but like, I feel like this is tapping into that whole. We live in a universe based of relationship and everything is related to everything. I feel like this is tapping into that. I'm reminded that everything is just about relationship.

See, sir, for there to be a relationship, there has to be multiple entities between them. That you can have a relationship and such a relationship is based on expectation. Otherwise you wouldn't call it being in a relationship with that person. You know, you would just be like, I don't like that person, or I don't know them, I don't care. Only if your expectations are being met are you in a nice relationship with them, is it not? Because on the other hand, there is nobody there to have any relationship with. If you see clearly that there are no multiple people, then who. What is the question of relationship? Right. This clarity of seeing results in something called action which is already complete based on the fullness of reality, not based on the unreality of all the different people and all the things connected and all that. That's all ideas, you know, the reason I say it's ideas is because there are not multiple things connected. Multiple things being connected means there is separation, separation, and then you connect everything back. There is never any separation in the first place. There is no two things. One cannot have a relationship because there's nothing to have a relationship with. Who will have a relationship with whom? So this, unless it's becoming very, very clear, the question of relationship and me and the other will not go away. But if you realize this, then so called relationships will automatically transform. I cannot say it's for the good or bad. It will transform because the truth cannot be, you know, suppressed, so to speak. So it will express itself the way it should, rather than you holding it and keeping it in any way, which is an unnatural process. And it only causes you suffering and everybody else suffering. I don't know if that made sense.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Expectations. Yes, the word relationship can't get rid of your. Yes, the word relationship is that. See, people ask a lot about this word love and all, you know, they say love, compassion and all these things. The universe is a compassionate universe now, right? It's already compassionate. Everybody who's on the planet right now is eating. Even though they don't all get to eat sushi or ice cream. Everybody is eating. Some people are more hungry than others, but the food is there. All the animals are eating. Birds wake up and find their food. They don't plan anything. They don't have to accumulate. It's there. Whatever is required, appears. How did you meet somebody in your life? Like how you meet meet your significant other, for example. People think that most important thing is where you go to school, you know, who you meet, who you end up with. And some big things, right. In life, none of which have been determined by you. Right. It just so happened to be that way. If you look back and realize the truth of it. And that is the case with everything. So tell us something.

So, like, I'm having a bit of hard time understanding the cause and effect thingy here.

See, you're the observer, you are the person observing and you want to understand things.

Yes.

Therefore you say, in order to understand things, I need to know what causes what. Right? That's how I understand how things happen, how it works, how life is, what is it for that you have to have cause and effect. Because that any understanding, if you don't have cause and effect and the higher order which maintains that cause and effect, understanding the theory of gravity will not be useful because it doesn't repeat itself in other Words, it has to repeat itself. It has to always be the same. Right. Gravity means 9.8 meters per second square. Every time it's the same. Right. Milk turning into yogurt. Every time it happens, if I leave the milk out and put in this thing, it doesn't turn into ice cream. It always turns into the same yogurt. So this repetitive pattern drives us to thinking about cause and effect. That's what I mean by cause and effect. For there to be understanding, one has to observe something to understand and then understand its cause. That's what is meant by understanding. So to understand something is to understand the cause and effect that underlies it.

Okay, and how is this related to, you know, like, so, you know, if, if it cannot be known, then, you know, I don't know. It happened that the part where we're discussing.

Right.

If you couldn't see.

Yes, exactly. Everything has a cause, right? Yes. So for you to know what the cause is for something, the fact that you can know something, is it not required?

Okay, we, I'm not sure, but we can't do this the other way around. Like, I, I know the effect and like, from, from what I understand, like from my limited, you know, limited understanding, limited interpretation of things, I understand that science is basically, you know, trying to find the root causes of things.

And I'm saying trying to find root cause of anything is the accumulation of knowledge of how something works, right? Yes. Creating the theory. And the, whatever you call the understanding, that's based on some concepts and theory. Right. This is how it works. Right. So you observe the effect, and now you're defining the cause.

Okay, okay. So you are saying that if I don't.

Apple fell down from the tree. Apple fell from the tree. That's the effect. Why did it happen? Is the whole theory of gravitation.

Right?

The effect is that we fall. The apple falling.

I, I, Okay, Makes sense. Makes sense. So if I didn't see the apple falling, I wouldn't be looking for why apple felt.

Correct. Correct. Also, if I don't know things, then if I don't have any way to get knowledge, I cannot answer these questions. So first of all, what is knowledge? I'm sorry. So first of all, what is knowledge? We have to see. If I say I want to know how it fell, how come we don't ask, hey, how come suddenly I see this apple falling? Hey, how come suddenly I see these trees? Hey, how come just now I was asleep? Suddenly this whole world came into being? How come we don't ask that question? How come I'm awake? In order for me to see this apple falling, I have to be awake. No. In order for the apple to fall, this apple tree has to be there and the Earth has to be there, and I have to be there and everything else has to be there. Exactly how it is now, right? So the cause of this apple falling is absolutely everything. No?

Yes, yes, yes.

Which is the cause? Where is the cause? Which is it, the theory of relativity or theory of gravitation? Or is that just a small part of the answer?

It's a small part of the answer.

Correct. Right there. The actual answer is absolutely everything. Okay? Therefore, what is the reason to look for a specific answer? Is it not limited to understanding and false knowledge? On the other hand, you don't need to know about the theory of gravity to live your life. You can live your life perfectly fine without knowing anything about the theory of gravity.

Yes, yes, yes.

You see? So this knowledge is not necessary. Is it not? Do I need to know that apple will fall? I can see it. It's happening. No.

And the fact that Newton for Galileo, for that matter, I investigated it because they got an idea correct. Like if we trace it back to this. Because they wanted to know, this is what.

Right. And why did he want to know? Because he was. He happened to be there. No, no, it's happened. It's just no reason. If it was not Galileo, it could have been somebody else. So there's nothing special about anything going on. And it's not Galileo who did it. It just happened to be there. Right. Is it not? If he wasn't born to his exact parents who didn't give him the exact experiences, then that situation would never have arised. Arisen.

Oh, yeah, we were discussing this. The probability of that thing. The probability of probability of that thing happening is like always one, Right?

Therefore, it was meant to be. Meant to be?

Yes.

Once you understand it was meant to be, then the question of free will disappears. If the question of free will disappears, the question of action and reaction disappears. If the question of action and reaction disappears, then what remains? See, action and reaction, or karma is the logical loop. That's how people live their lives. You know, if I do this, this will happen. That happened because this happened. Conceptual, is it not? Why did the pandemic happen? You can give 25,000 reasons. Will any of them be true? That is what is called as the unknowable. The reality is not knowable and there is no need to know it. That's where the biggest relaxation appears.

So I have A question. It is a bit maybe off topic. You tell me if it's. If it's not relevant. So somewhere I was reading about, you know, like the judgment days and all. So, like the. The thing is, we are. We are just after we die. So basically the premise here was if God or, you know, whoever the creator or the higher being is, he already knows who will do what, because, you know, he knows that if. If you will be doing this thing, or I'll be doing this thing, or someone will be doing. Committing some crime or something. If it is already written, I don't know if it's already meant to be. What's the point of judging people at the end? So the, like, you know, the answer that I remember, I think it was some discussion, some. Some group discussion or something that we are doing in college or school or maybe a coaching for that matter. It was that free will. People have the free will to choose. Right. And you. It might be written or maybe something. So then how does this go around there? Or is it totally, you know.

See, if you say everything is written before, then where is the free will?

Exactly. That's what I'm asking.

If every single religion, every single spiritual master, every, single, you know, ancient text tells you that this is. There is no free will. It's all God's will and all these things. Yet we all argue, still in 21st century we are arguing the same topic. Right. And just now in this conversation, we went through it at least three different ways that there is no free will. And yet the illusion of free will persists. Correct. So both the knowledges are in your mind right now, the logical explanation of why there is no free will and your belief that you are doing this.

But, but Ahmed, you. You will even say to redream the dream, basically, and you know, is. And essentially like seeing it differently. Does that. Not even. And that doesn't. It's not to negate or free will or not even to approve free will. Simply to say that I am the creating all of this. This is all happening because of me. In my sense. In that sense.

That is a fact. No, there is nothing to. Yeah, that is a given. That's a fact.

So the two things fit together.

Yeah. If I'm not there, it cannot be happening. That's a given thing. I will not know it. No. So I am required. That's a given. It's a fact. Without me, I will literally not know that. Right? Yep. So I. I am knowledge only, is it not? Yes. What do I know about myself at any Given point in time or what do I know about anything at all is a function of knowledge that I have. Right. But if I don't have knowledge, also I'm there.

Yes, yes.

So. So the question is, what is knowledge and what is not knowledge? If I say I have knowledge, can I be knowledge? No. Well, I have knowledge. Right, sure. So same thing. If the dream is happening to me, if I'm witnessing the dream, is there any question about dreaming it?

No.

It'S a happening.

Yes, I see.

Yeah. Because we are being dreamed, you know.

Yes, Very aware of that one. Yeah.

So if this is clear, then there is no reaction because it's clear what it is.

I suppose I get thrown off a little bit when it. There's any discussion of there being not a God, but simply imagining that anyone else had control or any sort of insight or any sort of. Any power to make things have to have dictated things ahead of time. Right. To have predestined anything except that it was me, only me, because it's my dream.

Yes, but the question of my. Has to become clear.

Well, that seems to me to be only a flavor. Flavor of consciousness. I just happen to be this. This particular flavor.

Yeah. When you say flavor, there is, I assume, you mean like people, different types of people or whatever you consider. Yeah.

Right. So when I say my, I only mean this flavor of it.

Right. And that's what it is. There's no such thing. There's no your flavor and my flavor and different flavors.

No, your life is not different than mine. And I know that. I understand. I mean.

No, the whole question of your life and my life has to be seen. What do you mean by that? What you mean is the waking state. Right. And in the waking state, so many things are happening and many things are being seen here. Like you're walking through a farmer's market and so many things are going on like that here also. Much is happening.

I'll make it. I'll make it even more specific. Until I stopped arguing with you and getting mad about what you were saying and began to understand it, life was shit. But then when these understandings began to fall into place in a way, the knowing completely stopped, as we can tell. And the wondering completely has for the most part fallen away. So I'm saying that is.

Yeah, you're saying it's just ideas. And those ideas are appearing to you.

Right.

And if you don't identify with them, then you will not see any difference in flavor. When you say flavor, it comes from consciousness, has no flavor, you know?

Well, I feel like it's only a way of describing have for communication's sake. Not my, not my forte.

In experience. No, no. In experience, actually, if you're feeling different things in experience, one has to see where it comes from. You know, those differences. In experience, if you say sweet and salty, where does that duality come from? The salt and sugar both are inert. They don't say that they are sugar and they're sweet and they're all those things. And if 10 people eat the same sugar, they will have 10 different reactions. Salt and sugar, expression of it, which is good or bad or not salty enough or whatever. All those flavors of experience does not come from the inert objects, Is it not?

Yes.

It only comes from you. Yes.

Yeah, I see.

Experience is not derived from objects. Objects are inert matter. The mango which you eat is just dead cells, you know, energy. It has no taste, actually.

Yes.

In fact, if you are distracted, you will not even know what you ate. You know, so see very, very clearly where is the experience of anything coming from? Just.

Just the mind just.

Is it not because you go to sleep tonight, there's nothing there and then you're eating a mango and enjoying it and having so much fun with it and all that. In your dream there was no mango, no world, no body, nothing was there. And you had all the mangoes. The experience of it was real until you woke up and then you had a craving for mango also.

Mango ice cream even, maybe.

So that's the thing.

Yes, I see.

To see clearly that this is the situation. David, do you have any questions for us? No, I actually I'm just enjoying listening to everyone. Super, thank you. The problem basically which everybody has is they're all. We're all addicted to experience nowadays. People don't want so called material things, they want experience thinking like experience is not material, whereas it very much is. No.

Hey, I'm sorry. Can you come again on this experience.

So called experience, is it not material?

Like it's an abstract thing? Like I can't see it, I can only feel it.

There is something called like subtle matter and gross matter, you know, gross matter is like a tree and a table and a house and a road and body and all this gross, you know. But an idea is subtle matter because it's still there. It's an idea, specific idea with a specific boundary and a specific structure and a specific something. So it's a thing. An idea is a thing also. It's just that it's subtle, it's not gross, but it's Matter, you know, it's an actual thing, an idea, is it not? It's not nothing. Correct.

And definitely it's not nothing.

Yes. Right. So therefore it is something and that thing is matter, what you call matter. Matter is something, something that occupies weight and has volume and a definite structure. This weight is zero because it's subtle matter, but it has definite volume and, you know, even weight. It can feel heavy and light and all those things. So it is a real thing, you know, objects. It is an object, an object of consciousness, AKA knowledge. Okay? Right. Ideas and knowledge are same, conceptual, based on memories and other ideas, you know, So in, in all of this, what is experience?

Is this a subtle matter?

Of course. Is it? You said it's abstract, you know, so is it abstract or is it not abstract? See, because subtle matter is not abstract. Abstract is. There is no matter there. It is purely abstract. Okay? Whereas material is not abstract by definition, it is not abstract. It is the opposite. Right. And we just now said ideas are subtle matter, therefore they are not abstract. Because not all ideas are abstract. Right. Some ideas are very concrete, is it not? Yeah. What I'm trying to say is experience. Yeah. Experience is abstract, but the knowledge of it is not abstract. Do you understand this point? Yes. When I eat the mango, just at the point of eating it, there is no description there. I just eat it, it's perfect or whatever, delicious. And whatever it is, it is. Then the minute I compare it and create knowledge out of it, I say it is like this or it is like that. It is tasty or it's not tasty. That is the thing that you call experience, you know? Otherwise, how do you know you had any experience? No, no, the knowledge of the experience is what I'm referring to.

The discovery of a new experience, not new.

The fact that you're eating the mango, even if you've eaten 5,000 mangoes before you're eating this one, the very fact that you know that you're eating it, that knowledge, how do you know that you're having an experience? That knowledge, you know that is also knowledge, is it not? See, either you know that you're having an experience or you don't know, is it not? If you walk through the whole farmers market and don't notice somebody, that means you never had the experience of them standing there, which means what? You did not experience it. You did not have the knowledge of it. Therefore you say, oh, I didn't know, it didn't happen.

What you didn't sense didn't happen.

Yeah, you might say that oh, actually there's more around me and it happened there and all that. But in all cases you have had to be there for it to have any relevance happening. Otherwise, who is it relevant to? If it's not relevant to you in any sort of way, did it happen? So the question of anything happening means it has to be relevant to you, otherwise it didn't happen. Right. Anyway, the point I was making is that it's the knowledge of the experience versus the experience itself. You see the difference eating the mango and having the knowledge of eating the mango, walking through the farmer's market and noticing somebody versus not noticing somebody. It's a rough analogy, but bottom line is unless you know that you're having an experience of the mango, you cannot compare it with anything else. And if you cannot compare it with anything else. No, no, please go on. I thought you said if you can't compare it with something else, then how will you label it? Yeah, very true. So to see very clearly, what is knowledge, it is nothing but labeling based on the past knowledge. Basically, we live conceptually in the past using past experiences as knowledge. You're converting experience into knowledge. You see. Otherwise what is there to say? The mango was eaten, that's all. The accident happened on the car, it just happened. There's nothing to say. The no reaction, no get it fixed and go back home. Is this point clear?

Yeah, I think that for me it returns to a no. It's the open. There's no question, no opinion, no the no thoughts. The no mind space is very comfortable.

And you will, yes, you will arrive there. Not you will not be able to hold that space. Because holding that space is an effort of mine.

Right, exactly. But having no thoughts about it regard either way. No thoughts.

So not having curiosity about it is when it ends.

Yes.

Otherwise you're curious, you know, I want to know what is it? What happened? Why did it happen? You know, all those things. But once the curiosity ends because you. It will not end simply because you say I don't need to know or not. Again, another thought, right.

It is helpful when I'm told is none of your business. Like when I ask a why question and I tell myself that's none of your business. It's very helpful. It does end. There's a chance.

That is a practice there. Yes, it's a practice. Right. Because the question is arising out of ignorance. It doesn't need an answer. The question itself should not arise. Right. Because when that becomes clear, it will not arise. So it. Do you understand?

Oh, absolutely right.

So that's what we're talking about. The questioning will end automatically because that is the actual fact of the situation. Right? There's nothing to know there.

Yes.

If I just tell you that and you accept it as a fact, as another concept, it is not actual. It is not direct experience of this. But the direct experience of this will come when the other things are not crowding it. So that's what it is. That is what is called as meditation. And all that remaining as yourself not being disturbed by any.

Not being narrated.

By any appearances, because what appears, disappears, right?

Yes.

Nothing is permanent, so nothing is there to respond to. By the time I say this tree, the tree has aged. Hmm. It's not that tree anymore. By the time I say this body, it's changed. In fact, it's just a bunch of atoms moving at high speed. And in fact, the cells change out every seven years. So on average, we all have, you know, new bodies every few years. So which one is you? What is it that word? It itself is not existing. You know, there's nothing static. If I point to some object, it's not the object, it's an idea about the object. Because the actual thing is pure energy vibrating there and changing constantly. Right. Is there a tree? No, only atoms and movement of energy. Right. I call it a tree, you call it a tree. We both agree, let's call it a tree. But is it a tree? Tree doesn't know that it's a tree. So the reality is in our minds. Therefore there is nothing called reality or unreality. They both are ideas. To say that this is a dream or not a dream has no meaning in the words, like, because it's just knowledge, you know, just words. But in action, in actuality, for those that are so called clear, then the question of knowledge is not relevant at all. Right. Thoughts?

I. I have to, I think, meditate over this a bit. But a lot of things like, it's. It's something like unlearning and relearning. But I again, can't use these terms because that's not what it is in reality. But I think it will take some more time for me to, you know, get a hold of the thought process. Basically.

I find. I find that the only question or concern arises when I say, well, I do have to interact with other humans. And coming from the space of not asking questions, not knowing, not studying, not wondering other humans, quote, you know, it creates distortion. And I noticed that with you, there is not a distortion. Now I know I'm using me and you as Separation. I understand that, but you are because of actuality.

Yes, that's because of actuality. We all use words to communicate, but what it is does not need words, right? Like if I say this is fire, somebody else calls it. It's not fire, it's something else. But if you see the fire there, it's hot.

Yes.

It has no need for description. It's a hot fire. It's right there. You can see it, you can feel it. You can burn things with it. It was.

I see. O, that clicked.

Yes. So that is what is, Guruji, you see, it's intense sexuality.

Yes, Guruji, I see. Oh, man. Every time.

Not me, him. Yes, yes, it is actual, you know, there is nothing here means what is there is the actual thing. So you can go there and feel it there, because it's there. That's what it is. There is no need to know about is. And that knowledge of what it is and the actual experience is there for you. And you know it yourself. When you wake up, for example, you know that it was a dream. Nobody needs to tell you that the knowledge of the reality and unreality both are in you of any dream. Means what the actual knowledge is there. Just you are not accessing it at that point in time, Is it not? Otherwise, what else is knowing? And once you know, then what is it? All the false knowing disappears. Then you say, I know and I know those things are not true. Whatever you say, it converted into knowledge, but in actuality it is there, you know. And so that is called the intensity. So you say, I me, you. But the fact is there is nothing there, you know. So that is what is, you know, called feeling. You know, feeling. It is felt that that experience is there. It's very simple. And it becomes the natural state because that is all there is in actuality.

Last week, Amit, you had. You had said that you will be talking about consciousness as well.

What is the difference between knowledge and consciousness? That is the question for you to discover for next time. And the cut short answer is we did discuss about consciousness this entire call. Knowledge and consciousness are the same things. So you have to meditate on that and understand how they are the same or why they are different. Whatever you feel. You can discuss that. Hey, David, go ahead. Right, when you say consciousness, is that different from awareness or do you mean the same thing? No, I mean consciousness and knowledge are the same things. Awareness does not have any knowledge in it, you know, it's just aware. Not aware of anything, but just awareness. You need awareness to be aware of consciousness. Consciousness is being conscious of something which is why you say consciousness. You have to have content to have consciousness but awareness needs no content. You know, it's just you don't have to know anything then you just have to be aware. That's a very important question. Peeling those two things apart is how you can reject consciousness because consciousness is the very problem, right? The knowing factor or the so called knowledge is what is the blocker. What do you call mind is the same as consciousness is the same as knowledge, is it not? Is there something called mind other than these things or thoughts or ideas or memories and the interplay of these things? That's what you call mind, that's what you call consciousness. And awareness is beyond this. It's the awareness of all of this. Our next chat will focus on this which is what is consciousness, what is awareness and what is knowledge? Sam.