iRealization - Season 01 Episode 07

Dave, what's been happening, man, since we spoke last?

Oh, you know, I've been just continuing walking. Walking on the path here. I've been thinking about this conversation we had yesterday about free will a lot.

Mm.

You know.

And.

Well, you know, it seems that the illusion comes from. If it is truly an illusion.

Right.

That the illusion comes from. Okay, so I just woke up. I. You know, do I not have a choice to jump on this call or, you know, get in my car and go to Starbucks?

Yeah. One has to identify the actual illusion we are referring to, you know, before we speak of that illusion. Yes, everything is illusion. But when you say I woke up, you know, who woke up? There, you see, the. Something woke up and the dream started. You're in the dream, is it not? Yeah.

Right.

So it's not that you woke up and it's your dream. You're in the dream.

Right? Okay, so there's the dreaming aspect of it. Right. Could I. Could I not.

Lucid dreaming is a God complex. There is no God, actually. You see, God complex means I will control my dream. You see, it is a dream, so I will control it. See, I will control it means what exactly?

So where does desire come from? Is desire purely an illusion?

Not at all. Desire is the cause of illusion. Yeah.

So where does desire come from then?

It is eternal. You want to be something. No, I want this. I want that. I want this. I want to be. I want to change it. I want to improve lives. I want to go and help the world. Everybody is an illusion. I must help them. I must be enlightened. I. I must be enlightened, right? That is desire. No. Wanting to be what it. What I am not. I. I don't know. What is this enlightened? I don't know. What is this? Ignorance. But I want it. I want ignorance gone, and I want enlightenment. So after I get enlightenment, what will happen? If I ask you, what will you answer?

I mean, the same things will be happening, right?

See, you don't know that, right? So we are wanting something that is based on an idea. It's like being scared of death or being scared of a ghost. We have a concept of it, but the reality is not matching it. There's no object that's called happiness or success or ghost or self or enlightenment or bondage. There's no physical counterparts to these things, right? There's no like in the nature. They don't appear as if I say mango or fruits. You will see many mangoes and fruits. They may all be of different shapes and Sizes and colors and all that stuff. But you can say they're all mangoes and you know what a mango is. But if I say success, there is no such thing. You cannot find it. You will point to some things and say they are success. Other people may say, ah, but they are not really successful and all that. So it's a concept. Same with happiness, is it not? On the other hand, if I say dream, there is no need to imagine what it is. Everybody dreams. Everybody knows what I mean. Everybody is aware of the dream, not the dream content, not who is dreaming, who you meet and all. The fact that it is a dream and not real is what we are referring to.

Right?

Which makes us what is real? That question of what is real? What am I searching for? How will I know if I get it right?

Right.

So that reality question has to be answered. First of all, before we discuss oh, I know it's illusion. First, what is not illusion? You have to be clear about it, right? It means what is reality? How will you know if reality comes and dances naked in front of you for you to know that it is reality? How will you know? So we have to define reality for oneself very, very clearly and crystal. Crystal clearly, right. First is reality cannot change. Because if it changes, then it's not reality, it's changeable. Agreed? Yep. So it's always real. Something that absolute. So it was absolutely real. And absolute also means for everybody. Not for me or for you or for anybody, but for absolutely everybody. It is the absolute reality means it never changes. It is always real for everybody. That means it never started. Also because if you say it started at some point, then it changed from something to something. Therefore it could never have started. That's why it's called eternal. And because it never started, it cannot end. Yeah. Therefore, these are the characters. Now apart from that, I should be able to know that it is reality without any interpretation means it is self evident, as real as me knowing that I am here. That is how clear and self evident it should be. If it is reality, it should be known to everybody as reality. Whoever encounters it without any confusion or, you know, any, any other person doesn't have to explain it. It has to be a direct, automatic. You're saying automatic and self evident. Direct perception of it is possible for anybody. Otherwise it's not called reality, it's a thought should be there for everyone. So these are the simple ways in which one can check if something is belonging to the category of real versus unreal. The very first one, changing, which is it that does not change. Everything in the universe is changing, is it not? So can there be anything real in this universe? By the very first definition of it, yeah.

It can't be.

Therefore, one has to realize this fact. It's not that. Oh, yeah. Intellectually, it's not there. Now let me think about how to find it. You know, like, because it's not there, you can never find it. Finished. There's no point. Your effort is pointless. It's an illusory effort that you will never get anything from. It's like searching for water in the mirage. It's not there. You think it's there, but it's not there.

But is there not something there? Well, I guess, yeah. You can't call it something.

See something there or not there means either it's always there or it was not there. Right? It cannot be appearing and disappearing and then you cannot say it's there. If it's constantly changing, can it something be there? It was there, you can say. But it's not there now, is it not? That's what a mirage is. It's there in the moment, but when you go there, it's not there. It appears in the moment to be there, but in fact is not there. That's a mirage. That's an illusion. It appears to be something that it never was. So to say, is it not there? I mean, it's an illusion. Is it not there? No, never there.

I feel like you gotta really get.

With the fact that your mind is making up everything. Even what you're seeing is just literally being made up. Is it not? One can see clearly that the eyesight eyes, they are only a camera, you know, light enters the mind. Eyes, that doesn't show you the flowers, right? There's something else that converts the light and so on into recognizable shapes and so on and so forth, right? So that representation of what you see is not in the eyes, it's in the mind. The sixth sense, which combines all the other things in sound. And because if you just see sound, you will not get anything. I mean, if you just process sound, you will not have any idea what is there. So all five instruments of senses are brought into the sixth sense sense. And the new sense creates the apprehended reality, what you call consciousness. And inside that consciousness you will find that the auditory and visual and smell and all these things are just the different instruments of that comprehension. But it is limit.

Shouldn't there be a seven? So the mind cannot be regarded. Everything is consciousness, ultimately, right?

But mind, no, we are. Yes, everything is Consciousness. Just a minute. I think there's a bit of a noise from. Yeah, see the. Everything is. Yeah, everything is conscious. It's just a word. We are. That's not saying much to us, right? We. We don't know what it means. What does it imply? So let us forget the word consciousness and actually go to what is there. So forget the word consciousness. What is actually there? I know my mind is there because I see my mind, right? I know I'm seeing my mind. What I see is in my mind, is it not? This bottle or this phone is represented to me by my mind, right? It says I have. There's a phone, there's a tree, there's a. It shows all those things, right? It puts it in the time and space. It creates time. It creates, you know, space, right? It says this happened before, that happened later, this may happen. All these are creating the notion of time, right? It's a notional concept, is it not? When I wake up from this dream, nothing would have happened, no time would have passed, you understand? Yeah.

Right.

And all those people and the entire universe that you had in your dream disappeared. There was never any space that had those things there. Neither time nor space was actually there.

So then that means. So then, going back to this question, right? So you have the five senses, you have the sixth sense, which is the mind. Then is there a substrate beyond? There must be some substrate beyond all.

Is it not naturally, when the minute you say something this is there, that is there, the minute something is said to be there, it is a part of the whole. And what is that whole? One cannot name it, right? You name it, it becomes a part, right? Right. It's infinite. The mind is infinite. Therefore the universe is infinite because you create it. You just keep on. You walk outside in your dream, you'll meet other people, you walk into their houses, you'll meet even more people. You meet their parents also. You can go to China and meet them. It'll keep creating all that. From where will it come? It will come from your own ideas and memories of China. Then you will say, I had a great dream and all that stuff. I want to go to China. You'll wake up.

Yeah, right.

So this is the actual thing. One has to see the reality. Don't have to go far away. So how was. Any further insights there from your day session?

Yeah, so I had. I was in three days of. Of silence and meditated down 11 hours a day. Waking up at 4 o' clock in the morning until 9 o' clock at night with a Few breaks. And, you know, I think like we talked about yesterday, one of the biggest insights I had was just the.

The.

You can call it maybe observation, that of how much energy and effort thinking, you know, takes. And it's not to say that, you know, people say, oh, well, then you stop thinking. You're not gonna be able to function in this world.

That's not what I'm talking about.

You know, and it's a little bit hard to describe because you. There is something beyond thinking where, you know, there's almost like cognition that is still happening. I don't know, it's hard. Again, it's hard to describe it more.

The cognition one has to realize is. That is an optional thing. You don't need to know, Right. Do you, like, suppose somebody attacking you? Do you need to know what's happening or you'll just act?

Right. That's why it's just beyond words.

Right?

You can't really. I mean, you have to. I mean, I have to approximate with words whether I use cognition or whether I use, you know, whatever it is, right? But there is something that is happening where you can still, to your point, right? The line is attacking you and you get out of the way.

Right?

You didn't think about it.

You didn't.

There's no thinking that's involved.

One has to see the difference between thinking and reality. Reality is there. Then thoughts appear to distort the truth.

Right. It's a state of flow, really, is what it feels like.

And the static ness of a thought is the problem of why it's so limiting and feels restricted. Because if you say, you know, you only know that much. No. Whereas there's no need to know anything in particular.

Right. The question is how to maintain that state for longer and longer. We call it a state. Right? Just for a moment.

If you. If you. Yes, but you have to understand that it's not a state.

I know. Yeah, I know. It's just very important because when you.

Say yeah, when you say yeah, when you say what? That's why it's very important we define these words. We don't use words that are in the dictionary. When I say there is no cognition, it is not. What is it? Cognition is there not there. It's irrelevant to talk in terms of concepts. It is exactly what I'm saying in that moment right now. That's all. You can go out there and read, you know, talk about it differently. It is that it's irrelevant in the moment right here, right now. It is what it is. These words Are unimportant. The meaning is important.

Right? Exactly.

So when we say cognition, we mean understanding and meaning, is it not? Yep. Otherwise, what else do you mean by cognition? I need to know why, what, how? Meaning, you know. Right.

But then we run into the problem of mango, right? Mango is different meaning to you.

Therefore, that word meaning. What is the meaning of all this? We are all, you know, stuck. We're all wondering. I just want to know what is the point? Right? That word point is another meaning question only what is the meaning of all this? For me, Right? Yeah, it is whatever you want, Your meaning is yours only. Therefore, you will never find meaning which is absolute meaning. You only find your own meaning. And that is never satisfactory, you see, because you know, it's made up by you. It's self deception.

Right?

That's why you don't want your meaning. I don't want my meaning. That's just another desire. I don't want my meaning. I want the actual thing.

So, yeah, so you were talking about state, right? Which itself, we had to talk about go beyond the word estate and talk about meaning, right?

Yes. Because no, meaning is of the mind. Meaning requires concepts, right. If I say I understand, it's based on concepts, right. I might say, oh, this is the theory of my understanding. This is how gravity functions. Now I understand gravity. That's what you mean by cognition and a theory of understanding, which is all based on concepts and logic and predictability. Right. Of that theory to predict the results that you might want to know, hey, what will happen if this, I do this or that, if I drop this glass, it will break because of gravity. And I know that. And it's based on formulas and this and that, and it's all based on certain concepts and they all put together and they work a certain way. And that's cool. Gravity, it's practical knowledge, I suppose. But beyond that, it's already there, right? Whether I call it gravity or not, whether I claim to know it or not, I experience it. I don't question it. I know it. I know it's there. It's never not there. So just like that, how does the instrument of light function? How does the instrument of sound function? How does instrument of mind function? All of these things require you to know that they are functioning or that they're there itself. So first of all, for anything to work or not work or to whatever, even if it wants to exist, who will know about its existence if nobody knows? If something exists, does it exist? What does it mean to exist?

The awareness of existence has to exist.

But whose awareness you see? Yeah. And that's why we bring it back to that thing. There is nobody's awareness. See, awareness doesn't belong to anybody. There is only awareness. Means it's not your awareness or my awareness. There is only awareness. Right, right. So that is what we also mean when we say that it is a universal mind. In sword, the universe is seen in the mind and there is no distinction. Right. We make an assumption that what you see is universe and not mind. Right. What is it that tells you that? What makes you believe what you see is the universe and not your own mind? What makes you think that?

I mean, the physicality of it. Right. You measure it.

Physicality of it is that it is appearing in your mind. Right. Physically it is appearing in your mind actually.

Right, right. But meaning why do we think it. It's because if you stop somebody on the street and said, why?

You know, no, not other people, you. Why do you think? Oh, me? Yeah.

No, in the mind. Absolutely. Yeah.

One thinks that it is the universe. You know, one thinks one is inside and one is outside. That notion of inside and outside, where does it come from? Where is the line which is the inside portion and what is the outside portion?

It's not. It's the mind, isn't it?

There's no line. No.

What's that?

There is no line. Isn't there?

The line makes a line.

Right?

Right. But it's a made up line. That's what I mean. So there's no real line. If you look for that line right now, you'll not find it. Inside and outside are concepts.

They have no inherent truth.

Yeah.

You know, that's you, you've talked about that before on it. Then that's worth diving into, I think a little bit because that will help people. Like if, you know. Because people will say, okay, you know, my body ends. You know, I have my. The inside organs of my body.

Right.

Then there's the next layer, the muscle muscular layer, and then there's the next layer.

Do you, do you. Who is digesting your food right now?

Part of me is.

I mean, either you are or you're not, you know. Okay, are you. So can you pause for a minute?

Well, actually they say in the Vedic.

Tradition that that's possible. Yeah. Possible, not possible. You are if you either you're doing it or you're not doing it. Right.

I can do it. I can't do it.

Can you. Can you decide what you will be thinking about 10 minutes from now?

No, but I've Heard it's possible.

Can you sit quietly for, you said 11 hours. Can you do it for 11 days or 11 weeks, or like a long time? Nobody can do it. You cannot sit still. Nobody can sit still. If you say, what will I do? Will I just sit at home, do nothing? Show me if it's possible, just sit at home and do nothing. You will be the first person in the universe to manage that. You see, we imagine that we are doing something and then the question of what will I do if I don't do anything, you know, comes up. That very question is illusion. Because first of all, you're not doing anything and everything is happening already, Right?

So this gets to planning. Why bother doing any planning whatsoever?

Who will do the planning? That's why they say man proposes, God disposes, right? Because you can plan. There's no harm in planning. What is planning? Just your own thoughts and ideas and illusion, right? Then whatever happens, see, Trump wanted to do so many things, then he had Covid, right? So what has that got to do with anything? For example, there was one very miserly man, you know, Very, very miserly. And he would never give anybody any food. And all his workers were always, you know, all that stuff, you know, he was a big farmer type chap, long time. So one day he's going home from his farms and he was carrying some rice. He was so stingy. That ball of rice fell down grains and he started to pick them up one by one, counting each one. He wanted to get all of them back, you know. And it's dark also some bushes and all were there. It fell inside. He started to search and all that and spent 30 minutes. It was became dark. Suddenly under, behind one bush, he found the Chintamani stone, you know, what is Chintamani stone? We are all searching for the Chintamani stone, you know. You want your liberation, right? Chintamani stone gives you the liberation, gives you the answer to all your desires, etc. Etc. You know? So he got that stone there suddenly. He was a miser who stopped there for his own greed. And he suddenly was, you know, he found it there. That's the end of the story. So he got liberated because of his own actions. He was there searching and all these things. If he hadn't done that, he would not have found the stone. But what has this got to do with his own plans? Nothing, right? So one might say, oh, he was this thing, how it works, what nonsense. Blah, blah, blah. Isn't that all just like his miserliness or this and that. And all the ideas he had about the universe was also bullshit. Everything is crap, right? Somebody says, oh, you should deserve it. You shouldn't deserve it. This is how you should do it. That's how you should do. Is it not all rubbish? Which means what? Every. Yes, every event is independent. There is no connection between events at all. You draw conclusions and events and you say this happened, that happened. You're the one drawing cause and effect. Karma actually doesn't exist. However, because we believe it, it exists. Otherwise everything is independent, right? What has one fruit got to do with another fruit? If animal eats one, that's all finished. There's no plan to grow two new trees and all these things, whatever happens. So once this has become clear, what is the use of planning? That is the real thing. Why would I? You already said. No, Dev. That the biggest thing that you find difficult is the fact that thinking causes the effort. If without effort, without thinking, where is the effort?

Right?

If you want to, right? So if you want to be effortless, you must stop doing the things that. That causes effort and has no output. And thoughts have no output. You know, thoughts stop you from action. It will say, oh, I don't like this, I'm bored. This is not interesting. These are all ideas, right? Is there something interesting? One person says it's interesting, another person says not interesting. So what do you mean by interesting? You believe in your own ideas about it, right?

Yeah.

Whereas the ideas about it are illusion. It's like saying mango is sweet. If you ask the mango are you sweet? It'll be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm just a mango, Right? If you ask the sun, how come you're so bright and all? What will the sun say? You know, this is very important. The sun will say, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you mean by brightness. And then you say, no, no, no. Wherever darkness is there, I. You know, it'll be like, I don't know what you mean by darkness. Wherever I look, there is only light. All there is is light. The sun says, the sun never sees any other thing. Never sees the darkness, never sees the objects also. Because objects, when it sees in the full night light, it is not visible. Only in partial light will you be able to see a reflection. And at night when there is no sun, you don't see anything. Then during twilight or daytime, you see many things. And then when you so called fully wake up, only light. Again you don't see anything. Because in full light or in full darkness, nothing is visible.

So how do we square this, you know, with folks who might be hearing this conversation, right?

And say, okay, well, no, that question is again, from your own thing about other people and how will they do it and all those things. That very question is not required. You have to see what it means to you. That's all.

Yeah, right, right, right, right.

Don't worry about others. You first get, you know, you want to wake up, you want to be liberated, you want to do all this enlightenment, all these ideas you have. Let's make it very, very clear. All these ideas are only for you. Nobody else has these ideas because communication is not possible. Every word that I say is for me. I know what I mean, right? Can anybody else know what I mean? Impossible. Therefore I know.

Approximation, right?

Therefore I know my thoughts are. And words are, you know, rubbish, utter crap that I speak all day long. But this is a known fact, therefore there is no confusion about it. You see, It's like what we had said. How will I know this all the time or whatever it is. Do you need to remind yourself that you are a man? You know, when I'm a man, I'm a man. You don't need to. It's. It's a fact. There's no need to, like, remind yourself. Whenever the need of that information comes up in action, you are there to do it.

Right, right, right.

There's no need for you to plan it and say, oh, good, I'm a man, I will do it now, and all that this way. Then another man will come and say, that's not the way to do the manly things. You know, this is the correct way to do the manly activities. We don't have that concepts. We do. Some people do. They're very sad and depressed because they don't know how to be themselves. But in general, you don't have to, like, you go and take a piss, you don't analyze it and say, I should have done it differently, and I wish it had gone this way. And then, you know, like, nobody comes and says, that's not the way to go pee. But if you start a company, they'll come and say many things. You should do it this way, you should do it that way. Because they all have ideas about how it should be done, you know, but is there some concept out there how should do a business? Where is it written for me? But yet we believe it. Oh, it should be done this way, it should be done that way. So for me, everything is like taking a piss, only there's no question. It's done. Whichever way it happens is alright. It's like a dog barking, you know? Will you say it should not bark that way you know, it's the nature of a dog to bark, let it bark. Whatever way it works is fine. So the Dharma question has to be seen clearly. You brought up Dharma many times. You see, Dharma just means nature. What is the Dharma of a dog? To bark its tail is always never going to be straight. That's the Dharma of it. Doesn't mean it should become a Buddha. And that is the real Dharma. No, Dharma is the universe is to be itself. If everything is something else, then what is the point? And that something else, which everything already is, we are trying to force, Right? And it cannot be.

Well, forcing is what causes, is what leads to misery.

Forcing is of the mind and is of reflected consciousness. And it's based on knowledge. And knowledge is always partial, can never be complete. Therefore you're acting in ignorance. It's very simple. Once you realize this fact, you will never believe in any kind of thing.

Unforced is the key.

As it is. There's no question of forcing or unforcing. It's just as it is already. Mr.

Point of view. Like they've questioned about the knowledge and you talked about knowledge. So I'd like to point out, correct. It is correct that knowledge and ignorance go hand in hand. The reason is the more you know, the more you realize there is more that is to be known. So knowledge itself expands the ignorance because it is always learned. And to learn something, you need to have time. For me to learn an activity, I will require a period of time. But if you look at it time as a psychological concept, it is just a concept.

It does not really exist.

Because that's why knowledge also is always limited. It will always be partial. But to do something, you don't need knowledge, you will just do it. Nike gave it in a better way, like just do it. For eating, you don't require any knowledge, you just do it. For walking, you don't or doing any activity. So the thought that poses as a thinker and a doer is an illusion. It is always in retrospect that we assign a thought that I digested the food, I walked, walking happened.

Yeah, exactly. So this is the thing we keep saying happening, right?

Knowledge based living is actually memory based living, which is always of the past. And it will always be limited because you don't have infinite amount of time. Time is always limited. So knowledge will always be limited. So when we drop memory Based living, we also drop knowledge, based living. Then we are just living, just going with the flow. So the thought, illusory thought posing as a thinker, dissolves in this moment, right here, right now. And then there is no concept of a separate eye as a thinker controlling the body. And everything dissolves with it. All concepts dissolve with the concept of a separate thinker and a knower. Separate knower. There is no knower, separate knower. It is just a thought.

So that's what we mean when the whole universe is contained in the moment. Right now, it is a stateless, a stateless situation. You see, the whole time factor, there.

Is only this now, correct? If I think of the past, the thinking of the past, the memory of the past is not the actual physical past that happened. It is happening right now. I am thinking about the past right now, here. So it is now, not the past, it is just the memory. And if I think of a future, it is hypothetical happening in this now. Never did I wake up, open my eyes and said, it is tomorrow. Like when I go to sleep today, I decide I will wake up tomorrow. But never in my entire life did I open my eyes in tomorrow. It was always today, it was always this now.

So it is so that's what now. If you look at never, that we.

Can enter any future. There is no future, there is no past. We can never exist. Exit this now, now is all that.

This is the point. Now, when we say the word we, we can never exit and all that. It is very important to understand what is this?

Everything is now. You, me, everything is just the now. There only is now that exists.

Again, this is, this is all very true. And what I've. So the word time, space, consciousness, knowledge, you know, unfolding states, dream, wake, all these are synonyms. They're synonyms and their concepts. Everything is a concept.

But talk about what is, what is.

These are all concepts, correct? See, that word now also is usually used in terms of past and future. You know, it is a time based concept.

Something which started or which is going to end. The now which never started, which never ended. It is continuous beginnings, endingless. Now alone exists. We are talking about the absolute now. But word will not describe what is absolute, what is right. Undivided, not separate, you not separate from me. Day not separate from night. No beginning, no ending. Now alone exists. That is all that ever existed. That is all that will ever exist. Never have I exited the now and stepped into the future. Suppose if I invent a time machine and I go 10 years back and I see. Again, it will be today. Again it will be now. It will never be. Time travel, there is no time. That's what I am trying to, like, point.

Now I will. Now I will point out something even more important and little bit further than this. This is all true. The question of I travel or I am here in the now is the I am. But the I am itself is not permanent. It comes and goes, you see. When do you say I am?

It's thought, it's imagined.

I am is itself.

I also doesn't exist. The I is a thought which is always assigned in redness.

No, no. There are two types. There are two parts to that part. That final thing that we're discussing now. There is the thought portion, and there is the actual portion, which is not a thought, and it is the actual what is.

You see, the thought arises cannot be described in words. It does not, because word also originates within it.

No, no, no. Okay, let me pause now for a minute. Let's not get into the pointlessness of this, because we are using words right now, right? We are using words right now to describe it. There is no problem to get confused. Oh, you cannot. You can. You can do whatever you want. But I'm not confused by it, you see. So I am very much able to describe it. I am very much able to be in it, knowing fully well that these words are meaningless. You see, this is a very fundamental thing. There is never a confusion. And the word I am and the consciousness portion is itself not the final thing because the word consciousness is knowledge, which is not required. So you can be unconscious right now and be fully aware of reality, and that is the final thing. And it does not have truth. I have not truth. It does not have I am because the very I am is partial and temporary. But I, which is not a thought, it's very important.

Opposite of I does not exist.

This is not a thought. So that's what I'm saying. This is not a thought.

Absolutely. We're talking the same thing.

Yeah, we are talking the same thing, but I just didn't. I want to be very clear here on the calls, because, yeah, the eye, we cannot.

Is something. A universal eye, you can say it alone exists. It's not even the universe. Universe is within the eye. Everything is within the eye.

Could this not lead to the point that we are. I mean, could this not lead to impulsive and disruptive behaviors?

Everything that it leads to already happening. See, Trump is part of God, you see, as was Hitler. So that question of destructive behavior, it never Arises, you know. What do you mean by destructive behavior? Everything is happening perfectly as a unfolding of the previous instant and the previous instant and the previous instant. In the previous instance, each moment gives rise to the full next moment in unreality, right? As a dream state is expanding and is unfolding all the things. The reason I don't talk about all the stuff that Chandra just brought up is because it gives importance to the dream. It's not required. All of it is nonsense. What he said, what I said, right?

So that's why all concepts needs to be dropped and one just needs to abide in silence right here, right?

No, no, again, all these are again, no, no, hold on, hold on. No, no, no. Again, this whole question of I will reside in silence and all that. It's not required. First you have to just illusory eye. What is it? So the question of silence also let me be clear, that word question of silence is very confusing to people. People think they need to sit in silence. The real silence is not of sound. The real silence is of the mind. Which means there is no reaction. Sound is there only if you react. No, if there is, why will there be a reaction? That is a very important question. It's not a reason. The reason is not meaningful. There is a reaction based on something, that something has to be seen. What is it? Because this is physical reaction I'm talking about. I experience my own reaction. I don't need these concepts of reality unreality. I, I not, I thought this, that nothing. Simply I see, I am reacting to something, right? Why am I reacting? I don't need to say it's because this person did that or that or that. No, I say, oh, the past is, you know, irritating me right now. Which is the past, right? Anything that bothers me is the past. So that is a outright cuts off right there. Vertical. It cuts off, you see, There is no more horizontal movement of time because what is that? It's nothing but thought. Thought is nothing but past. Past is nothing but memory and time. Therefore, why create it? So these concepts don't come from the outside in, they are from inside out. Means you see what is happening. These concepts resolve themselves. But rather than if I tell you these concepts, they become more concepts. Oh, this is time. That is time. No need. You see yourself finished.

Just, just nothing, just being, just residing.

That's it.

No need to sudeep.

Does that answer, does that answer your question regarding the destructive behavior? When Krishna told Arjuna to kill everybody and not to shirk from his responsibilities and in Fact, he was the one for 14 years wanted all that. And now that they're there, suddenly he doesn't want it. It's like, you know, we want to build something great and then we start it and then we get. Something happens and we lose some, you know, motivations, right? What does he say? He says. What does he say? He says, first of all, you're not the doer. Do your duty, which you were meant to do, and nobody dies because everything is in me. And he shows him his real form and all those things. And he says, go ahead and do your duty now. And of course, Arjuna finally does it and everything else. And then after all that, he forgets this knowledge. And then he goes into depression again later on. And then he has to ask Krishna again for the whole thing. And he tells the Gita sa again. And then he's kind of happy and liberated. Then again he forgets, you see? So this forgetfulness and remembrance is a natural process, but it is only of the past and of unreal concepts. Because whether you know or not.

But does that eventually end, this forgetfulness and remembrance? I mean, like when one.

So forgetfulness and remembrance will end only for an individual who himself is a memory only, you see, when you say I forget and I remember, what is being forgotten and remembered are only ideas that I attach myself to, and I say I remember something, I have that knowledge, whereas there is no question of I, that I itself is a thought.

Right?

So in these sessions, we are not going to be able to help anybody with any kind of a practice. Even if I say you should meditate, that's more of a, you know, you need to, you know, it's just a. It's just a practice of kind of trying to see how your mind operates. But at the end of the day, all this has to end because anything you do is only conceptual. It is not a reality. You see, any doing is partial. You know, it's like saying in the movie, character, a did character be something there, something happened, but it's a movie. He never did anything. It's just a script. The whole thing was just a preplay, pre plan, right? There was no individual doer there. Why did he do it this way? That question never arises. No, the actors don't ask each other, why are you doing this? It's stupid, right? They just go along with the show, right? And because the whole thing is unfolding as a single thing, and there is no individual actor there who has decided to do this or that. It's just a overall story, this Is what happens.

So I mean, is it possible to even describe in approximate words what happens when one reaches Mahasamadhi? Like, is that just the point?

100%. It's very simple, right? You sleep every day, no?

Yeah.

Everything disappears. The only difference is that you are not conscious.

Meaning? Today when I go to sleep and I become.

Is it not? What do you mean by sleep and everything disappears? There's no there, nothing there. Then later on something appears again. Then you say, oh, I slept very nicely.

Right?

If that portion of not feeling that everything has disappeared and therefore there's nothing, if that is not there, then what is there?

There is an awareness of something, I suppose.

Otherwise how will you know that you slept? Otherwise how will you know that you slept well? So there is something there. You know that something is always there.

So it's fully conscious all the time.

Consciousness is partial. The minute you say consciousness, it is limited, no? Of something I'm conscious of. What? How will I be conscious? Conscious of something only, right? So fully conscious. When you say, you mean total conscious. Total consciousness is what we are referring to. Yes, Total consciousness. It means there is no individual consciousness there. Universal consciousness or just consciousness. The real consciousness, pure consciousness.

And there is never any unconsciousness. Meaning when I go to sleep, the sleep that we would talk about in the human world.

See, the thing that appears and disappears is the content. What appears and disappears is content. And where does the content appear and disappear? That doesn't disappear. No. When you say nothing is there, what is there? Something is there. Otherwise how will you say nothing is there?

The screen. So we go back to the movie analogy. I guess the screen is still there.

Screen is still there. So that analogy is useful for that purpose. One has to see that this movie requires a screen. Otherwise where will this appear? And that screen itself is what we call mind or what we call consciousness. There is no. It's a synonym. You know, mind and consciousness are same, Right? And thought is also the same. Without thought there is no mind. Mind is thought. So all there is is. Mind means all there is is. Thought means the screen of the movie is thought only like a dream. You can imagine that right now you go to sleep, where is the screen? In your thoughts? In your consciousness. And it expands into the universe, Time and space, which is not a real thing, merely an expansion of your ideas about. So, Sam, there are times where the.

Screen will be even.

Sorry, Dave. One more time.

So there are times. Then you know that the screen, it's. You know, there just may not be any projection on the screen. But the screen still exists.

And it's exactly like a movie. No different. See, you don't have any free will in this matter. Right? You're. Who's, who's the one breathing for you? Can you stop breathing? Can you try? You can try but you will not be able to stop. Will automatically happen for you. If somebody comes to try to stop your breathing. You will automatically fight back. You will not be able to stop yourself from fighting back.

So is this why they say that in the advanced practices of yoga that at the very end of the siddhis they say ultimately all of these siddhis you can, but they still are committing.

Obviously, because it's only in the waking state. It disappears in the dream state, it disappears in the sleep state. What is the use in having temporary things if you're a rich man? Here you have a dream where you're a pauper and very sad. Is there any use of all your wealth in this world? So you only create the universe. You only say I have all these powers or I have all these. You know, I'm poor, I'm rich, I'm this. I can fly, I can do this, I'm a tiger, I'm a lion. All these things. You have dreams and you think it's special. You get excited. That's the illusion, no? Right. So that notion of siddhis and God and all that is again the same illusion. You want to be something you're not. And it's based on desire. You want to be God, you want to control everything. You want to be the Great one. You want to have Samadhi. You want bliss. You know, bliss is a. Is a state of mind which means it's temporary. It's in duality. You know, happiness and all these things only exists because the opposite exists. Otherwise you would not know that you are happy. Avoiding unhappiness is called happiness. People don't know the truth of what really is beneath both happiness and unhappiness, which is neither and beyond both. Sam, any thoughts?

Yeah. When you said that, that line is actually very meaningful to me. When you say that it's not about not doing anything. It's not about not taking any effort. But if you have the full awareness and after that you think and then you act. That is the not the right way.

But when you have full awareness, you will act. Yeah, that's it. Awareness leads to action. Thinking leads to inaction. Or partial action or wrong action. Because it's based on ideas, not reality. So Dave, when you talk about removing the me out of things. You see, the greatest trap is of spiritual ego. I have renunciated, you know, I am spiritual. Greatest spiritual trap. Because spirituality is not a concept. It is the absence of concepts. So to say I am spiritual is the problem. To say I am enlightened is the problem. To find something which is partial and feel satisfied with it is the greatest of illusions.

Right?

It's a temporary static moment where you say, I got something. That's it, that's gone over past. So where will you get something? Therefore, if you don't have anything, how will you renunciate it? So to say I renunciate it is itself an illusion, is it not?

But something did happen in the renunciation process, right?

Something is happening at all times, right? But that happening has to be seen as the illusion instantly, now, right away. There's no need to wait until something happens magically. Renunciation, it's like a movie playing, right? The movie will never give you the actual answer. It will never show you the projector. The movie will only show you the movie content. It will never show you how the movie is being projected. The projector, the reel is playing, the light is coming, the screen is there. It is not there. You see the movie, you see the characters there. You never see the screen unless you start paying attention. Then when somebody walks into the movie hall and everybody's crying because some horrible death happened in the screen, you'll just be like, why is everybody crying? It's just a movie, right? That's the awareness of what it is versus when you cry, you don't have that awareness. You have forgotten for a moment that it is not real. So the play of consciousness means the information appears and disappears, appears and disappears. There is no question of remembrance and all forgetful. And remembrance is itself the illusion. There is nobody remembering and forgetting to, you know, Chandra's point earlier, Time travel is not happening just now. You're seeing different things happen. You will see, you know, 100 year old story now, then 1000 year later story now. Everything's happening now, right? Like a movie, same thing. Do you follow that point? Yeah, yeah. And how does this affect the business you mentioned earlier? How it mentions business, how it affects business? It affects business because it affects everything you do. There is no distinction now between business and not business and home and not home and people and not people. And there's no difference. Everything is a single undivided whole, total. And I am conscious of my own ignorance, but because it is not like a mirage, right? You know, it's a Mirage. Where is the question of getting confused? So do emotions remain then? Can they remain? Can emotion remain? Is it not emotion? Ignorance?

Then obviously, then the question then becomes okay, I mean, as a sentient being, right? I mean, do I not experience the zest of life then if I have no emotion or is it something that is beyond emotion, then that is, is it not?

Is it not? Emotion comes and goes, right? Yeah. So the.

Right.

So in the case of business, this becomes the accelerant. In the case of any activity, if you want to be practical, and this is all bullshit, what I'm about to tell you, but it works because of. Similar to the law of attraction, you want to make money, you can. But that's the boring part. But I'll say it anyways. This is why I say siddhis and all that is, you know, it's a trap. You'll get more trapped in this. You get. You get too much money and all. You'll get trapped in this. Because it's a egoistic process, typically. But that's why you need material. It's there, you want to do on something. You. Whatever painting material is required, it arises. This is the most effective way to do anything. If in quotes, you want to do anything. This is being very practical and you know, not really. I mean, I'm. I'm just going to say it because people like to hear it, that you know, you become more effective and all these things. So sure, it's a good. Has positive benefits in life, in your own life. You will experience it, everything becoming effortless, things happening. But that's a trap. Don't get distracted by that. It's very important. Hi Vimal. I didn't notice you were here. I did, but I didn't catch that you were here this entire time. How are you doing?

I'll be listening. I'm listening for a change. Very interesting, very interesting discussion, you know, so nice, nice thoughts. Very good thoughts. And it's good. No on a Saturday evening. So like you were saying, you know, I have never attended any of your idealization. I don't know what happened. I came back from outside, did some shopping, then I saw the calendar. I say this is on. Let me just go into it. So this was not pre decided, right?

Yeah, yeah.

For me it was not pre decided. But for you, Dave and the others it was pre decided, right?

It's always decided. You know, you see that you. You came home and you saw that and you suddenly decided. But that entire thing happened automatically.

Yeah, yeah. I mean it was. It was, yeah. Because if I had something else more pressing, then maybe I would may not have gotten to it.

That's true. And including you thinking that this is not something you decided and it just happened and all and I decided at the last minute. Including that thought is predetermined. It was meant to happen. You are meant to think that you decided it.

Yeah, yeah, it was meant. Everything is meant to happen.

No.

Yes, exactly.

Those are. Those are events that happen. It was meant.

It was written choice. And when you.

When you chronicle that and those become your experiences. So life is a bundle of experiences that pass over something measurable they call man made. And that is time. That is man made. You know, we call it time. It can be called anything, you know, so it is a fun.

Very good.

You can achieving an objective to ensure goodness for the others. Exactly. What the sun does. Why can't the moon do what the sun does? So it is all, each element, one.

Thing I will add, made to provide.

You know, a lot of. Lot of, you know, energies in various. Even a poison does good, you know, for a. For a snake.

Right.

So what is for food for one may be poison for the other. So the point, what I'm trying to make is that, you know, whatever you're saying is completely good. There's no question that, you know, everything is predetermined. Everything is. Like, you know, like, for example, Trump, you know, he could have been flying high in the next 30 days if he didn't get Covid because he's quite a fantastic orator.

And he could.

He may have done things, you know, his GCC. But now 15 days is quarantined. Did he decide that? No, it was predetermined. You know, that is. That is there.

So.

What I have learned out of life is that within this predetermined parameters, what are the things, activities you do in that moment which you call time, which can benefit the nature, which human being also is nature. It's part of nature, which can benefit the nature and surroundings. So that is what is taught by gurus, that within that parameters of a predetermined era called time, which is named by humans, how do you contribute your best to nature? Nature is even human beings. So that is when thinking starts and, you know, planning start doing some things to support. Once you understand, as I have understood, it's my way of thinking, you know, you have understood, that's your way of thinking. But this is what I believe, you know, so. So from Dharma, you move to karma.

There is no doer.

No, I agree with. Yeah, I Agree with Vimal. Whatever he said is all very true. And that's a good practical approach to life. And this what we are discussing now is a little bit, you know, to the folks that really. Yeah, we're talking about I realization. We really, really want to I realization.

There is no doer and there is no choice. The choice is just a concept. Things are just happening. Like you said, there is a screen. It's a movie. It's already the shooting is completed. Now it just replay on a screen. So nothing can be done to alter it.

So you're saying it is not there. Then can you tell me what is.

There.

First of all, that you have to read.

I want that answer. No, if you're going on that thing is there and everything. What is there? What is there is what you create.

What is there is can't be realized by concepts and more thinking.

You have to stop for a moment. Stop all thoughts.

Disidentify with all thoughts, all emotions.

Before you answer that in terms of action. See Vimal, when you say what is there? The answer will come to you in some form, right? And if you understand that answer, you will require concepts to understand it, right? Because understanding is conceptual. It needs some concepts, it needs previous understanding. It requires you to know that. Okay, I have understood. That means there is a knower, there is knowledge, there are previous concepts with within which all of this fits in. And there are no more discrepancies. You don't have any more doubts because all questions fit, all answers fit, all knowledge pieces fit. And then you say, yes, I have understood. I know what theory of gravity means. I know how quantum mechanics works. I can drive a car. I know these things that is called as what is there? I want to know what is there. I want to understand it. It is a conceptual understanding based on ideas and knowledge. Now, if you did not have this knowledge, what is there is still there. This knowledge that you now have about what is there is a description of it. It is not the actual thing. So the knowledge only gives you indication that there is something. And that this knowledge that made me realize that something is not it. It's just knowledge. So any knowledge about what is there will be in terms of what is not there. Because the only thing that's there is what is not there in terms of the concepts. Right? That's what we mean by illusion. Everything is illusory in the sense that we are using illusory words that don't mean anything specific. They only mean something in my head and they only mean something in your Head to try to describe what cannot be described or does not need description for. For itself. It only you need description. I need description, but it doesn't need description. So to be specific, when you brought up the sun, the sun helps everybody. I agree with that. But the sun doesn't know it. You see, you go and ask the sun, hey, how is it going? He'll be like, well, how's what going? Everything happens because of the sun, but the sun is unaware of it. See, the night and day is required, the moonlight is required for the harshness of the sun to be taken away at night. And then the moonlight comes, it grows certain things next day, morning again, the sunlight, night, night and day, night and day. Seasons, you know, change. All this is happening and is causing life. But if you go and ask the sun, hey, how's it going? Looks like you created lots of life. He'll be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. He's like, no, no. Night and day and you know, nighttime, moonlight and all. You'll be like, I have no clue what you're saying. I'm just the sun. All I have is me. I just shine brightly. I don't know what you're talking about. Moonlight and all darkness. What are you talking about? No idea.

But Amit, the same sun, in the perspective of, you know, Jupiter or Venus, doesn't create life at all. You have got it.

That's what I'm saying.

See, that's what. So if you ask that you destroyed Jupiter, he'll say, I don't know.

Still, even for us, he creates life.

Whereas there's another side of the sun which has. All the other nine planets are dead, you know, so how so in only one planet it is that. So that planet is in a perfect spot. To probably take the benefit of that.

We only know this one sun. No, no. First of all, we only know this one situation. What is there. And we are concluding many things based on that little thing. We have no idea. Right? It's like billions and trillions. Obviously, Obviously we don't know.00001%. So first of all, let's start with the ignorance portion where we don't know anything first of all. Then we say in this particular situation, this sun happened to be in such a place where this particular rock, Earth, is where we happen to be born because it was perfect, etc. Etc. But my point is only this, this is all true what you said. Earth is perfect, Jupiter doesn't have it. But the sun, who is the cause the sunlight is the cause for light and not light and life and all that is unaware of its own effects. Because it does not have a choice in the matter. All it does is shine. And it has no bearing on whether or not light life appears on a particular planet or it doesn't appear. You see, it is the cause, the ultimate cause. But it has no involvement in the matter. It is universal. It directly simply shines. And whether you're a good person, a good planet, bad planet, whatever life is there, not there. It just happens regardless. Sun is there, finished. It does not come and say I'll give it to you, I'll give it to that person. Nothing. It doesn't even know that life is happening and it is the cause of life. So this is called the consciousness portion versus the awareness portion. It is there, but the knowledge of what is there is a limitation and only partial. And it is not required and is only needed for the individuals who are so called observing this true, that's the thing we are discussing now. Because everything you said is true. All the gurus will, the proper gurus will not take advantage of you. They will try to teach you good things. Most gurus take advantage of you because they are not really gurus. And then the final gurus will say there is no need to go and improve anything. You have to find out yourself who you are. Self knowledge is the only improvement the world needs. Once you discover what you are. The sun cannot be anything other than the sun. Like the lion can never eat grass. Like your WhatsApp thing. The sun cannot eat grass, you know, it can only be the sun, eclipse and all these things when it happens. The sun is never eclipsed. It is still the full burning sunlight, absolutely same. Nothing changes. The eclipse only happens to the people who are looking at the sun like something is there and all that. But even behind the eclipse it is the full sun. So if you ask the sun, hey, how was the eclipse? He'll be like, what eclipse? What are you talking about? Because it never experiences anything. It never has any knowledge, partial knowledge at all. It is the cause of all knowledge. It itself has no knowledge.

Can I ask one question here? See, suppose you know sun like you're describing it and if you were to ask, etc. All that is really good. See, these kind of thoughts about moon also was happening before Armstrong went on. People thought it was God and it was this and it was that. But when he went on to the moon, the truth was revealed to a certain point that it is just another.

You know, little dead rock.

You Know.

So now they have sent, you know, something very, as close as possible to the sun and they could get photographs. And they're trying to really find out what are the chemical composition that makes a sun really happen. You know, now, earlier you were mentioning that, you know, everything is just happening. Okay, if everything was happening, how, how did they, you know, the scientists develop equipment that can go so close to the sun and, you know, take photographs. You know, it has been a man.

No, no, let's go back in time. Big Bang theory, back in the day, 2 or 5 billion years ago, nothing was there. Universe started. The sun, you're referring to itself was not there. Right. Everything began as a reaction to the first event, the primordial explosion. Massive energy was released, and everything physics, quantum physics, was, you know, reacting to its previous instant and previous incident and producing the next and the next. And the next, including the sun came and the Earth came and all the people came and they went to the sun and they went to the moon, and the whole thing happened as a continuous reaction to the first event. If that first event had not happened, none of the rest of the events would have happened. So it's a continuous flow of the first event to the next, to the next, to the next. And then in there, we are saying, oh, this person did this and that person did that. But it's a partial action, is it not? Because they had to be born and the Earth had to be formed. And the whole timeline. The whole timeline is a single thing. They cannot be, you know, divided and say, oh, you did this? Did I create a wake? Obviously not, because all of us created it. And if I was not born and my parents were not born and everybody was not gone, there's no way.

So it's a thing that leads to.

One more question, Amit. Because even the Big Bang theory is written by men.

So. So how do you.

That also could be a Maya, you.

Know, so everything can be a Maya.

You've got everything. So therefore, somebody has written that Big Bang theory, right? Somebody has done this like it actually existed. But I believe it didn't exist. It was a small bank theory that existed.

I can. That's exactly right. That is why I say that this is an illusion. I don't say Big Bang, kid is here. I'm just giving you an analogy. The analogy is something started. And we are asking what started. You asked, what is there? This is not there means what is there? You asked. So if I say this whole thing is a dream and this universe is in a dream state right now, you're actually not here. You're sleeping in your house. And in fact, you're dreaming this whole situation. And in that situation you're asking what is there and what is not there. If I say this, the world disappears. Now when you, you know, the dream ends, the world disappears. What is the actual situation means? What the actual situation is that one is asleep and one is dreaming this in the way, in the waking. The waking state happens only in the dreaming. You know, you feel you are awake during the dream and you're doing things. You're going here and there and all that is happening, the universe appears the other way around also.

You're awake in your dream when you dream.

I'm talking about. Yeah, I'm talking about that exact situation. You go to sleep now, you wake up in a dream, you don't wake up. You know what you mean by wake up? In all situations where you say I am awake, it is actually the world and the dream state where you are so and so and you're walking around and other people appear there and all that. That dream situation is where one feels awake, right? That's what you mean later on when you say, oh, that was a dream. I was not actually awake. But you felt awake during that time. So the waking is now, which is in fact a dream state. And the truth of that dream state is the sleep state. So all the three states are happening at the same time right now. Therefore, which one will you point to and say is reality? So that's what we mean when we talk about the universe. We only refer to it as illusion. We say, when we say, you know, sun, moon, all that, it doesn't stay? No, it disappears In a few hours, the whole world disappears, the dream disappears and another dream starts or whatever happens. So what there is, you ask what is there actually, what there is, is only awareness. If you are aware of everything, then what you and I will say will be the same things. Somebody who is aware of all things and somebody else who is aware of all things will become one. That is true. Yeah. So therefore, what is there is actually only awareness. And then the limitation of the dream or waking, and all those things are just states of mind. Okay, thanks people. Thank you guys. Cheers. Thanks.