iRealization - Season 02 Episode 05

Hey, adimesh.

Hey, Amitai.

Hey, Edward. How's it going? Good, how are you doing? Long time, right? It's been a while. Time flies. Hey, Edward. So, Animes. How's life, man? Welcome to the group. Thanks, man.

Thanks. Life is good. Yeah. Although a bit monotonous.

Is it?

Seems like right now.

Fine. Why do you say that? I don't know.

I'm in Ithaca, upstate New York.

You're in university, is it?

Yeah, I'm in cornell, doing my PhD. I just started in like, Jan.

I see.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm a bit confused about whether I'll. Or whether I should continue on this path or not.

I mean.

Yeah. Whether PhD is like really my calling or.

I don't know.

I'm still in the process of finding out.

What is it that you're studying?

I study DNA, to put it simply. I study how different proteins that play with DNA actually do so mechanically or physically. I use a microscopy technique called turf, Total Internal Reflection Microscopy. And that allows you to see single molecules of proteins and how they climb and swirl around on the DNA. It's pretty cool.

Interesting.

Yeah. It's like studying the biophysics of protein mechanism on DNA.

I see. So you don't. You're not into it anymore or watch the scene?

I find the technique pretty cool. The questions are interesting too. But I. I think like, I don't know, man. I'm pretty confused. I feel like science would only offer a limited view of reality. And I'm someone who would, like, want to get a holistic view of what it really is. And I think like, it's just wasting five, six good years of life into knowing a very small bit of reality. Like, that's fine too. That's awesome. But I don't know if it's my calling or not. I mean, I'll spend five, six years of my life studying one protein and how it plays around with DNA. Yeah, I mean, that's. That's good for a living, but where would it take me in the long term?

Indeed. Very simple question is how do you know if you're waking or dreaming? Simple.

Yeah.

If you don't dismiss that question, then you may find an answer.

Don't dismiss what question? The dreaming and waking question.

Yeah. How do you know that you're waking or dreaming? Do you know?

I can't.

But. But you will dismiss it. No. You will go back to, you know, whatever you're doing and you will not realize whether it's a dream or waking.

Yeah. I mean, no matter how much I want to know it. One has to continue with life, right? I mean, no matter if it's waking or dreaming. I'll feel hungry, I'll go to my kitchen, cook something.

That has no bearing on reality, isn't it? Even in dreams you will do all those things. But those are only dreams, no?

Yeah, I agree with you. But then, like, what should one do? Not do anything physical, just sit and.

Meditate again inside of a dream, if you sit and meditate, what will happen? Dream ends. What will happen?

I'll wake up and not feel the hunger or whatever I was doing.

No, no. All activity is happening only inside the dream, isn't it?

Yeah.

So what is the use of meditation?

So how does one get there? Like there is no route. So one just waits and waits for God or whatever to just give it to you, that realization. I don't know.

So first of all, you have to understand what is realization? What is it exactly? See, you want something, you know, you want realization. But if you don't know what it is, you will keep on imagining something.

Yeah, but how can I know something before getting there, right? Any. Any statement I make will be based in my concepts, will be based from something that I have read or imagined or some. Even if you ask me what is.

It, that's the case. Then first thing you should say is, I don't know what it is.

Yeah, I don't know what it is in reality.

I don't heard some people, right? There you go. So first you start with I don't know what the hell this is. Because otherwise you're wanting something based on some totally unclear, vague picture, and you're taking action based on the totally vague picture. And you're asking if it will work or not work.

Yeah, agreed.

So that is never going to happen. You know, you have to be precise and specific if you want something, you know, in this phenomenal universe. Because the phenomenal universe is just matter and objects and they're very specific. Matter is what? Something that has volume and occupies space and it is what it is. Like a pear is a pear, a mango is a mango. That's what it is. You have to be very specific if you want a mango. What type of mango do you want? If I simply be vague about a mango, what mango will I get? I want a kind of mango. Like, you know, just simply keep walking around trying to find some kind of random fruit which is not going to be there ultimately, because you're looking for something based on.

But then to ask or to like to start this question of having something, you must know what that something is beforehand. Like if I don't have. If I don't have the concept of mango, I cannot go on asking for a mango. I don't know what exactly it is or what to ask for.

Exactly. So let's back out of this question of realization. Because we don't know what it is, so forget about it. How about we start with whether or not you are waking or dreaming? Why don't you answer that for me first? You should know, right? See, when you are dreaming, you don't know that it's a dream, you see? Then afterwards, who is it that finds out that it was a dream?

When I wake up, my waking mind finds out that it was a dream.

So the entire universe that you thought was real, just like this one where you're unable to answer whether it's dream or awakening, disappears.

The dream universe disappears.

The world in which you're unable to tell whether it's a dream or not, that it disappears. Yeah, it disappears. But you don't know it's a dream right at that time.

No.

So therefore what you perceive as the world, very real world, like you're perceiving now, not knowing that it is a dream. For instance, even if you, you know, if this was a dream and it, I mean, we'll get to that. But whatever you're seeing right now, you don't know if it's either dream or waking, isn't it?

Yeah, I cannot say for sure.

If you can't say for sure, then why don't you see the experience of what you can be for sure, which is what do you call dream is a whole universe that appears and then it disappears. You don't have to ask anybody else. No, for this.

Yeah, true. I mean, I agree with you there.

So you have to see for with clarity what is happening. Instead of asking people inside of appearing and disappearing universe, why don't you see that all universes are appearing and disappearing?

Yeah, I see that from my experience. But then what.

Now your question is realization. Realization means the word real is in there. So what is real? Your question is, you see, you want to find out what is real. And now we are saying all the universes are appearing and disappearing, and within one of them you want to find out some idea of reality.

Yep.

So where is the reality now? Must be outside of this disappearing world, isn't it? Because what appears and disappears is merely an appearance. It is not real. Because if something is real, it cannot disappear, isn't it? Means real means what see now let's go into the word real. What does it exactly mean by real.

Reality?

What is it? How do you decide something is real or not real?

Whatever comes up every day, if I wake up and it comes and everyone agrees on it and is not freaked out by it, it seems quite real.

I mean, but we are talking about actual reality, not conventional reality, which is based upon agreement. Because based on agreement we are all here talking and we don't know whether it's real or not real. No.

Yeah.

So I'm talking about actual reality.

Something that does not need any outside confirmation.

Very good, very good, Very good. Self evident, okay. It has to be self evident, which means anybody who comes across it should immediately know it. Otherwise you cannot say it is real. You see, if you have to have some kind of a translation, then it is based on concepts and you have to rely upon that understanding.

Yeah.

When I say something real is so.

Outside of me, everything is then a conventional, agreed upon thing. Then outside of me.

Right.

See, inside of me, then is it just me? Convention is required only for somebody other than you, isn't it? Otherwise you don't need a convention for yourself. No, true. So convention implies somebody else, isn't it? Yeah. In other words, it implies communication. And the word is only for other people, not for you. You already know it. Mango, sitting there eating it, only to tell others. Do you need the word? Yeah. So coming back to what is real then? One is, it is self evident. We got that. Anything else? What are the other properties of reality?

One that is in constant perception that it does not be affected by something.

Coming and going means so unlike anything here. In specific, we are saying it cannot change. What is real, is always real and has always been real, will be real, and you cannot ever not be real, you see? So it can never change from being real, it can never become real and it can never become unreal. In other words, eternal. That word eternal comes into being only when we drop the very idea of a beginning and an end.

But to be honest, this second criteria that I talked about doesn't really come from me. It comes from maybe reading or some outside concept. Because.

No, no, you see it yourself now. No, we are examining it. We are saying if you decide that something is real, okay, this is real, you say, if it had changed into being that thing, then how is it real? Because it had a change in it, you see? And if it changes tomorrow, then you can't say it was real because reality cannot change, Isn't it? If something is constantly changing, how can you say it is here. Today you say it is this, everybody agrees, tomorrow it's changed. Then what again? Change your thing. Is it?

So that can be called something which is changing, but right now perceivable can be called like a relative reality or a temporary reality.

Ah, ephemeral, Totally temporary, fleeting. Just in the moment something is perceived. But that is just perception. It is not reality. Isn't it? Perception is your own. It is subjective, AKA relative. And we are talking about absolute reality, which means reality. We don't have to say absolute reality. We cannot say relative reality either. The minute we say relative reality, it is not reality. How is it everybody has to know the same reality? So there cannot be anything called relative reality. Reality can only be absolute. You see?

But then tell me one thing that by these criteria one can also argue or claim that the outside world is real because it is indirect perception of n number of people watching it.

But it is changing. No, but it is constantly changing. There is nothing in the universe that is not static. I mean, that is not change. Every atom, every energy is equal to MC square. This whole universe is in a constant state of entropy. Nothing is static at all. Zero. Even your body.

Yeah, but I mean, if you just think, if you just think from the point of view of a human person who has a lifespan of 60, 80 years, people would, I mean people collectively would say that New York City is a real thing because it doesn't change.

People say many things. Inside of a dream. No, inside a dream, many things are seen to be real. And they all agree that this is real. That is real. War is happening. You're running from, you know things. You're hungry, your kids are crying. Then you wake up and you say, thank God, that's a dream. Right? So there is no point in discussing conventional understanding within a conceptual world and saying, now we all agree, therefore it's real again, that New York is changing. Which New York 10 years ago, 100 years ago, that New York was different. So which New York is real? New York. Then 1,000 years ago there was no New York. So there was no reality then. Or what reality came into being, disappeared, Changes all the time. What is that reality then? We are seeking reality. No, reality itself. By very definition it cannot change because otherwise what are you seeking? That is the confusion. You don't know what is real. Real means real. Everybody agrees it's real. Therefore it cannot be conventional. It has to be self evident and requires no agreement. It does not require other people, because everybody sees the self evident. And it's always that. Because anytime they see it. It is that they can anytime see it. For it to be real, anytime before tomorrow, day after day, anytime they see it, it will be seen as the same thing. And therefore it never changes and is called eternal. It is a word, eternal, because eternal means no beginning and end. Because if it had a beginning, it had a change in, went from zero to one or something. Right. But it never happened because it was always the same, no matter when it was perceived, no matter by whom it was perceived. And it will always be the case. It cannot have even the slightest change. So eternal. This is the property of reality we are seeking. Yeah. So if you keep seeking in things which are changing, you will never find it. No, by definition it is excluded.

But then the question comes to the same point. Like anything or no thing that I do in this. This framework of waking state won't be of any use towards that.

Absolutely correct.

So what then? Just go and live and wait for it to happen by itself?

First of all, again, we have to go back to it. You know, what is it that you are perceiving and what is it that you say happens? Any happening? Is it not only happening inside a dream?

Yeah, but I mean, after reading and hearing so many.

No, no, forget reading. Forget all those things. I'm asking you right now, if something happens and you wake up from that dream, what has happened?

I woke up from that dream?

No, no, nothing has happened actually. Right. Because the dream was there. It was actually. Nothing was happening.

Nothing has happened to the real me.

Which real me? You only knew you are me when you were dreaming. So which me are you talking about?

The one that was sleeping and not in the dream?

No, no, that is not known. No, there is no dream. See, you only know the one that is in the dream. The assumption is that there is somebody sleeping outside. Yeah, but that's. That somebody is in the dream only. That is an assumption. You know, that this is a dream. And what it means to be a dream is something. See, first of all, we don't know what is a dream. We simply assume that there is somebody outside you see? True.

Don't imagine a human sleeping outside that you're gonna wake up to in a bed or something. It probably will be much bigger than that. So, so you're saying. So you're saying that there's something. If you look around, everywhere within you or outside of you, at one point you'll find something that has existed eternally and everything else that you're seeing and everything else that I was identifying with will then simply go Away. Because if I can see the eternal part of me or internal part of whatever is outside, then I will just remember that holy shit, I was just this the whole time.

That's all.

I just forgot.

That's it.

Isn't that true?

Yeah, isn't it? You're expressing it yourself because you know it to be true. You see, this knowledge which is just coming out is not your knowledge, right? How do you even know to ask the question? So to see it happening as it is, that is called meditation. And for seeing, there is no activity. Seeing is already happening. Without any effort, seeing is happening. Okay, So instead of going into the words, there's that so many things. I should meditate. First of all, who is that I that can meditate? It will only be inside of a limited consciousness and an idea driven. I will meditate, I will become realized has no meaning because these are all words that are only within the context of illusion or consciousness. Whereas the truth is outside, as we said. And in fact, there is no outside or inside because both inside and outside are concepts based on the limited universes that we are familiar with. But what is the universe of universes?

So what exactly does change when, quote, unquote, a person gets awakened when he's not?

Anything that exists is only when the person exists.

I mean, clearly there has to be something that differs, that differentiates me from.

You or someone unawakened from purely imagination. That is also known as false knowledge, or I call it just knowledge. It is also called as ignorance. But they're all the same nature of information. Some people say correct information, some people say incorrect information. That's also known as knowledge versus ignorance or the absence of true knowledge. These are all types of, you know, knowing. And it's based on knowledge and concepts, you see. But all knowledge is based on concepts and ideas. So there is something that is not based on concepts and knowledge, because otherwise knowledge and concepts could not exist.

So how does one stop imagining them?

First of all, who will stop it? First you have to see whose imagination it is. You see, who is his imagination. Once you understand whose imagination it is, then that question doesn't arise, you know.

Because they also when you wake up, also when you wake up, it's not like you'll wake up and you'll go on to live your original life. It will be more like when you wake asleep, when you're dreaming. When you go to sleep and you start dreaming, sometimes you might wake up in the dream and you'll realize that, oh, I'm actually much bigger than this. Small situation that I'm in. And then the dream becomes lucid. And then you're able to do anything you want. So you don't wake up from the dream. And then, you know, go back to your original life. Now the dream itself becomes lucid and you have much more confidence and better execution. So if you want to stop imagining the entire dream itself, I don't know.

How to do that.

But if you want to see there.

Is nothing called lucid, you have to.

Wake up to your entire thing.

There is nothing called lucid dreaming.

You see, Conventional concept.

I know and I'm telling you that's only an idea. It's a concept. Because the minute you wake up, the dream disappears.

Usually when you say wake up, it feels like you'll wake up and then go back to your original life.

Forget that remaining of the word wake up. No, no, no, no, no. Forget about all that. No, no, no. You're mistaking it. Sorry. You are mixing the two worlds. You see, you will wake up from world A into world B. So you will not know that you woke up. You know, you understand? The one who will become awake disappears.

So how does one wake up? That's like the question what are the senses?

There is nobody to wake up. No boss, the very illusionist.

It seems very circular.

No, it is not circular. You are the one who is imagining that it is circular. You see, there is only what is. And the consciousness of itself is there. You see, you know, right? You are. Do you need any explanation for your yourself? I am here.

No.

So I am is not in doubt, isn't it?

No.

Then that's all. Where is the question of anything else?

Like, but then your, your definition of I am and my definition of I.

Am.

Is drastically different, right? When you define, when you define I am, you say I am is something transcendental and the universe.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't say anything. I just say I am. That's all I said, don't you know you are? That's all I asked you. I never said are you not a transcendental being and all that crap. Simply ask the question. Don't you know that you exist? I know, that's all I'm asking you. Do you know you exist or not?

I know. Yeah.

How do you know?

From direct knowledge.

Like what is that direct knowledge?

I can personally.

Knowledge comes from experience, you know. No, no, not world. Forget world. World is what you're seeing in some so called world. I'm asking, do you know if you exist? Forget World existing.

Yeah, I know. I exist.

How do you know?

Because there are no words to describe it. I mean, I cannot doubt it. That's all I can say.

There's an experience happening. That experience of you being here, isn't it there?

Yeah, it's there. Yeah.

Otherwise you wouldn't know it. You know, the knowledge of you being there comes from experience of you being here, isn't it?

Yeah.

So experience and knowledge, these two things go hand in hand. When you eat a mango, you know you ate it and you can say that, oh, this is so tasty, or whatever it is. There is no separate knowledge needed apart from the actual activity of eating it.

But then tell me one thing. That when I'm in deep sleep, I really do not know that I exist. But that experience or that memory comes only when.

Very good, very good. Now we are getting directly to it, you see, because what is there when there is nothing? That experience is known to you every day.

Sorry?

The experience of nothing is known to you because you remember your own sleep, you know?

Yeah.

So when you say, oh, there is no nothing. No nothing. All these things, isn't that very same nothing experienced every day at sleeping?

Yeah.

So where does the reed need to go looking for it? Everywhere.

No, I'm saying is, you say that I cannot. I mean, anyone says that I know I am because I can experience that feeling of I am. But I'm saying that when I'm in deep sleep, I. No one, or at least I do not have that feeling of I am. It is only after I wake up.

How do you know, boss, that you. No, no. How do you remember it then? No, you can't remember something you didn't experience. Correct. So obviously experience is there. So what I'm saying is the experience is there, isn't it?

Yeah.

The awareness of that was not there. You see, what is lacking there is the awareness of it, but the experience of it is recollected upon waking.

Yeah.

So you know that experience was there, it's just that you don't experience it now. Nobody can experience a different state in another state. You can't experience dream state now or sleep state now because this is the waking state. But you can recollect many things, ideas, concepts, and some experiences which have been converted into concepts is all that you can recollect because that is what is called as memory.

Yeah.

So the same experience has been stored as, oh, I had very nice sleep, very peaceful sleep, I love to sleep and all that. Where there is no identification of any kind. True. That's all, isn't it? Now, right now, the problem is. What?

That the moment I wake up, the identification blurs.

My means. What exactly is happening Means I am Animesh.

True.

That's all. Don't do that. Remain as your true self. Finished.

The question is how? The question is not how do I remain, but how do I not remain? How do I not illusion myself as this?

So anything and everything and whatever you may do is the illusion. Simple. There is nothing you can possibly do that is not illusion, isn't it? Agreed. You have to see clearly. What is it that we're discussing you want?

I agree.

But then the question is like become clear about it. Cc first of all, you have to become extremely clear that there's no activity that can take you there. Unless you're clear, you will keep trying to do activities and it running behind the mirage. Every time you are walking in the desert, you see it. You will be thirsty and run behind. That's what happens. People go mad in the desert. But not knowing is the problem, isn't it? Otherwise, you're scared of the ghost. You keep thinking ghost is real, ghost is real. You go through life thinking ghost is real. And then someday you will conquer it. You do all the Bhajan yoga, everything. You become very confident. And finally you have confidently conferred it. You are able to go into the night. You have your Bhajans and all in the mind. And now you are back to being your old self. Have you conquered your ghost? So what has happened here? Nonsense has brought nonsense. Yeah, the nonsense continues. That's all. So what is it that we are talking about? You know, we're trying to realize something which is not. Which is what? It's an illusion, isn't it?

True.

So the realization is itself an illusion. Because any kind of realization can only be in conceptual form, isn't it? But we already know concepts are illusion.

Yeah, I get. What? Whatever you say. But then. Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

What is it that you want? Now let us come to that. What do you actually.

An imagined state of.

No, no. That answer. You want peace, is it? Don't say imagine state. What do you want actually?

Freedom from thoughts.

Because you want freedom from thoughts.

Thoughts create illusion or blur the.

I'll. I'll give you a simple visualization. Because I just came up with it yesterday. I thought it was really cool. If you take your face and you immerse it into the ocean, you'll see so many fishes, so many schools of fishes. There'll be a shark coming away also. And you'll be super scared of the shark because it looks scary. There will be all kinds of things happening inside the ocean. If you just could look deeper and deeper, okay, you don't have to swim. Then you realize that. Wait a second. Every year or every day, I look at these fishes. They pass by. They get bigger, smaller, even crazier, even beautiful. But all of that is always changing. And the only thing real actually is me. I am the only one real here. And I'm the only one experiencing this entire ocean. Now, if you take your face out of the ocean, you realize that you're entire. You're actually perceiving the entire universe using your face and your body. So you're actually immersed in the entire universe. You are experiencing the entire universe. So who are you? And if you can see who you are and who you are going to be eternally, then you'll be free from your thoughts. Because your thoughts are just like the fish.

Yeah. That's a very good visualization. It's good. I'm not sure how helpful it is. Animesh, any comments?

Yeah, I mean, everything is conceptually nice and green.

See, I'll tell you something. That's why I'm telling you. Don't go into more and more concepts. More ocean fishes and all that. Sitting like this, sitting like that, hanging upside down. This yoga, that yoga. Forget about all of it. Simply come to the basic facts. Jnana Yoga means knowing it. Can there be anything other than knowing the truth? The truth is of the quality of knowledge, isn't it? You want to know, isn't it? You want to be free. Because thoughts are constantly coming. They keep saying, I want to know, I want to know, I want to know. Reality, isn't it? Yeah. That those are all thoughts, isn't it?

Yeah.

Those are all thoughts based on the memory of somebody who did not know reality. And that somebody can only see things conceptually because that somebody is conceptual.

Yes.

Therefore, whatever you seek is conceptual only. Is this clear. You are seeking something that is going to happen in consciousness. And in consciousness, whatever happens is limited to that so called happening and that particular perceiver whose consciousness it is. Yeah. What is the question of happening? There you see, any happening is within consciousness. And you are trying to realize consciousness or awareness or whatever you want to call it.

Okay?

The very source. So any thought that emerges out of what you're trying to see does what? It takes you away from what is there. It takes you into that limited idea of that thought. Whereas we are discussing the very medium, the substrate of Thought. What is thought made up of? Not what in particular is the memory of, but what is it made up of? It's made up of memories and mixed with imagination. Because you'll never remember the mango itself. You'll just remember some nonsense about it saying it was like this, it was like that. So delicious, so horrible or whatever it is. Whereas the mango has no opinion about it. It is an inert matter, just a bunch of energy and cells, nothing else. Yet. So where is the opinion about it coming from? You call it thoughts or experience. You call it. Isn't experience equal to knowledge? Otherwise you will not know that you had the mango means you know it. So the knowledge part is always operating. The experience part is evident. You say I had it. I know I had it. You know, there is no doubt about it. Your own experience. So those two parts are clear. Consciousness of your own experience and the fact that it is there. Existence itself, I exist is never in doubt. No.

Yeah.

So already you're at two out of three. Which is what? Sat, chit, Anand. You're looking for the Ananda portion. You want to be free of everything. Ahaha. You're looking for that. But first you have to become clear on the first two parts. Sat and chit, which means existence and knowledge of that existence. And the bliss part will be there when nothing else is coming. In the way I see it is inherent in being itself. Otherwise you cannot imagine and have an orgasm. You know, for example. Yeah. So that pleasure is also inside you. Only if you see. You ask the question about sex that day on slack. You know, if you see exactly what is happening, there is nothing other than that imagination. True. Even during the act. Because it has nothing to do with kids. So the self delusion is the problem. Giving meaning to that individual who will become realized. Whereas there is nothing to realize and no individual. And even after realization and any big gum, you become very happy. There's that king of everything whatever. The next dream or next instant, it may be over. Then you may be in some other state, in another land, in another whatever. What is the use of such riches and treasures that may disappear in a flash?

But then it makes one nihilist, right?

Only if you think that there is somebody to be nihilist. Oh, I will do this. I am a nihilist. I don't have any meaning. I will do this. Another idiotic idea only. No? True. So the ignorance intensifies. If you are not seeing very clearly that nihilism itself is a foolish concept of the ego. Saying that I am, you know Now a nihilist, because there is no meaning. Meaning is only in the context of the individual. It's whatever they think. That's all that's meaning. Meaning to whom? You see, meaning to the one who gives it meaning. Otherwise, same mango, 50 reactions based on 50 people tasting it. Yeah. So to become clear on the nature of what is happening, that is called meditation.

And for that is a necessary path.

You say what we call meditation, which is what? Seeing all the things which are not true. The only way to get at it is to see what it is not. Then what remains ultimately cannot be negated. And you will be left with it. It will take over what is there.

That part is just not happening. It taking over. Or maybe I am resisting still.

No, no, no, it is already happening. You're imagining that it is not happening. Who gave you this thought? You see, how did you start thinking about realization that itself is happening on its own? My friend, You're taking credit for something, you know. Oh, I want, I got, I became interested in realization. As if, you know, how did you even find out? Like, what does that even mean? You, you don't even know what it means, yet you're claiming credit for it.

True.

So that whole claiming credit, that whole free will principle has to be seen clearly. You imagine yourself to have free will constantly. Where is the question of free will from the moment the Big Bang happened? Isn't it all a physics reaction? I'm asking you as a scientist, isn't it all predetermined based on the initial Big Bang?

Yeah.

So where is the question of free will? Only in an imagined mind, only imagination. So all there is is imagination. So in imagine, in imagination, you want realization.

I'm interested in knowing your journey briefly. I mean.

My journey was I, you know, spent my whole life trying to be this imagination of Silicon Valley. There's that all those things selling the company, blah, blah, blah, move from India here, all that happened when it happened. It was a complete disaster and show in many ways. And I kind of completely lost touch with my sort of sense of reality and wanted to go deep into the question of what is it that we're all basing our actions on if nothing works out at the end and nobody is happy anyways, which is evident. And so I just went into it and I was a scientist in the past, you know, engineer and order and all those things. Still am, but I don't. Didn't have any, you know, spiritual things in the back. You know, I just had a very intense, rational look at the world and Just wanted to find out. It was really one of those dark periods of life. And 2014, 15. And. And then I discovered, you know, all the things we're discussing. And then I. 2016, I met my guru and. And then it was instant.

Okay. But then I asked who the guru was or.

Yeah, and then he's a person in. He's a person in India. He's from the. A couple of different lineages. But this is an ordinary man. He just lives his own life. He's a farmer in his 80s, early 80s now, and lives his life. I mean, a lot of people know him and he's traveled the world because in his time, he. I mean, it's from the Ramana times all the way through.

Okay.

You know, so he's done his whole, you know, all those things. He's well known around the world. Not much in terms of like any organization or anything, because these people don't even have names. You see, if you ask him your name also, you know, it's like he'll tell you, but it's like the name is unimportant, you see. So they are pure. These are the sages, you see, they are there. The sages exist and you have to just find them. And you have to be lucky enough to find them in the sense that when the desire becomes so intense, the dream manifests, you know?

Yeah.

That's all. Other than desire, there is nothing. So whatever is the top of mind, only you will be able to accomplish, isn't it? If you. If you want something, you don't think about it. Will you ever get it?

No.

So effort is required to find the effortlessness.

Oh, but then you contradict your earlier statement that no matter what you do in the illusory dream, it will not lead you.

I contradict because right now you are not in that state of freedom. So the effort is required in the sense that. What do you call meditation?

Okay.

It's a practice, you know, but after a while, you should remember it is a practice. Don't get attached to the very meditation. Oh, I meditate. I mean, it is a practice. Once you start driving the car, if you keep, you know, looking at the manual. Instruction manual. You'll never, you know, drive it properly. After a while, you don't realize you're driving the car.

Yeah.

So it's a practice. Once the raft is used to cross the river, you can let the raft go. Vedanta means what? These are all just words, have no meaning sounds. This point should become clear that there is no. This is only Sound, you know, Isn't it sound. So how is sound able to do anything?

Because we have built meaning around it.

But that is afterwards. First the very sound is happening, you know, and that sound is itself triggering everything, isn't it?

Yeah.

Where is the control of meaning and all that is an imagination part of it. But the sound is supposed. There is a bus about to hit you. You will just jump out of the way.

Yeah.

And then you'll fall into a ditch and you'll be like, oh, shit, I fell down. It was so. You will not say that actually. You'll be like, oh my God. Did you see the bus? Before you knew it, it jumped.

Yes.

So to see this in reality requires nothing. You know that. That effort of seeing. What is the effort in seeing? No effort, but seeing what you see. If you start seeing the specific, then you will call it thoughts. Otherwise thoughts will not happen. You're simply walking through the market. You see all the shops. Unless you have some idea. And once something catches your eye or you go talk to somebody, what is it that you have got in mind? Nothing. Right. Just simply walking through the market. All the shops are there. Yeah. So the meditation that I talk about has to be done all the time. Not sitting somewhere and doing is called being aware of reality. That is called Jnana Yoga means being aware. Awareness is of the nature of consciousness and knowledge. Otherwise you can't say I am aware. However, if you say I am aware, that becomes knowledge. So don't say it. Simply be no. Means don't do anything. Relax, become effortless. That is itself the effort. Does it become clear? What's up? No, nothing.

I think sometimes when people. I feel like sometimes when people come to this call or read the spiritual guides or something, they're not looking for an answer so simple. They feel like there's going to be a transcendence. Or they come with their previous ideas of what the future might hold or something higher dimensional or something. And that makes it tough because then you start looking into the drift. You start looking at everything someone is saying, expecting that to come out somewhere. But nothing really changes. Like you'll see the same thing and you feel the same thing, but the dots will connect better.

That's how it starts. You have to understand that. Dots connecting this, that and the other, all in the realm of illusion. Oh, something is happening. Awake is happening. I realization super cap. Please understand the reality here. None of these things are happening. Never lose sight of reality. So don't get excited, don't get depressed. There's nothing to React to. Because if you know what you are, what reaction can there be? Yeah. So what happens then is nothing. Nothing. So what happens then is you are just there, Which is reality, isn't it? You happen to be here, isn't it? This call is not possible to be premeditated, Animesh. Being here and all is. No. Nobody could have planned it, you see. Yeah. So everything is just happening. Where is the question of free will? You know, we keep inserting our own limit. I did something. How can you have done anything when everything else is all happening together at once?

How is it that there is. How is it that there is more than me? Why am I not the only thing there?

You are the only thing there. There is this phone call, which is also, you know. Everything in the dream is the single thing. There is no, absolutely no, nothing else ever, at any time. No time itself. Eternity, you see? And the experience of it, the bliss portion is hidden because we keep thinking that there is other things. So the mind is bifurcated, split, imagining, multiplicity, where there is not even the question of unicity. Even one thing doesn't exist. That's why Advaita is called not two, not two. It's not. You know what I mean? It's not even one.

For one thing to exist, you have to stand outside and point to that one.

So it's not two things. There are no two things. There is nothing apart from oneself. Everything is of the nature of knowledge, isn't it? You say this phone call is happening. How do you know? Because it's happening in my consciousness. I see it. I have the, you know, it's happening. And see eye is only seeing. I mean, its eye is bringing in the light. It's not seeing it. What is it that sees?

I don't know. I mean, I still feel like.

It'S okay. Animesh, we just talked. First time. You have to take away and. And just relax and don't think about any of these things that we talked about. That's it. Just relax. Nothing to be discussed, nothing to be cognized, nothing to be analyzed. That is only called real listening. Listening means listening. The knowledge is the one that is operating. You see? You are not operating. Knowledge is operating. Isn't it true we have a dog barking? So, okay, so what I'm saying is the knowledge operates. Whatever knowledge you have operates you. You are not operating it. It is operating you, isn't it? Yep. So once you see that knowledge, everything operating you, where is the question of elation and free will and all those things? Tell Me.

One has to just submit and leave.

Be aware, not submit and leave and all. There is nobody to submit and leave. Take back your right of being aware and not being subjugated to knowledge. You want freedom from thought. Instant freedom from thought. Now, because only awareness is real, you have to just remain focused. That is called effort. Focus is effort. No other focus. Attention. You may call it focus or attention. You know, pay attention. What does that mean? What is that you do when somebody says, hey, pay attention? You put your focus where they are, saying, you know, that is what. Become aware of something and stay aware of it at all times.

Yeah.

That is called meditation. The minute you are unaware of it, that is the situation called thoughts. Without awareness, only there can be thought. And without awareness, nothing can be there, isn't it? Can there be something without you being aware or awareness of it? So why not simply remain as what is always there, which is awareness? So we talked earlier. Is there anything that is unchanging? Everything is changing. What is it that is unchanging?

The awareness part.

Awareness part. So we have already isolated immediately what you came to realize. You have come to realize awareness. And what is there to realize about awareness? Because all realization is conceptual, so they cannot be realized. Because awareness is the very source of all concepts. First you have to be aware of it. Then concepts of it can be created. Yeah. So what came first? Awareness or the object?

The awareness.

Awareness. Because object was only created after you created the object. Before that, there was only awareness. What we call awareness now, don't make awareness something. Awareness is the very thing. Yeah.

I think I should meditate on this. Not on this, on. On me.

Yes. That is the most difficult thing to meditate on, which is the self. But with this knowledge, meditation will happen.

Death.

All right, guys, this was a good call. Thanks for swinging by. Thanks.

Yeah. Thank you for your time, man.