iRealization - Season 02 Episode 04

Hey, good morning. Good evening, I should say.

Yeah.

Hi.

How's it going?

Good, how are you?

Yeah, okay, as usual.

What's up?

So this call, I was just looking up the podcasts or episodes also. So it's the, like. I just had, like, a couple of questions. It's just like that kind of conversational mode. Just like it was earlier.

Yeah.

Okay.

Awesome. Just a question. Just chatting people discussing their experiences and helping with seeing things clearly.

Yeah, This is some. One of the things that I've been working on recently. Like, I just realized that, like, with this opportunity and even, like, like, I. I realized that I need to stop getting in my own way and in order to get, like, a lot of things done. But even though, like, understand, like, knowing that is different from understanding that, which is different from, like, being that.

Right.

Like, so.

Yeah. So that's why in these weekly sessions, we basically discuss the difference and how to be and not how to know. Knowing is the problem. So knowledge is the problem. You see, we are in the knowledge economy, but that is a joke as far as we are concerned. We are playing the game of Leela, you know, game of consciousness.

Right.

There's nothing, in fact, going on there. Simply the manifestation principle.

I did not understand that part.

You will understand eventually.

Okay.

How does anything happen?

You know? Right.

Like, how does it happen?

You're asking for, like, what controls it or something. I'm not.

Yeah, whatever comes to your mind, you want something to happen. You said you're in your own way, you know?

Right.

That means you have an expectation or you want something to happen. Otherwise you would not say that, you know, so. So what is it that you expect to happen and how do things happen?

I mean, like, things. I don't think that, like, I directly control what happens, but I think that, like, it's a prerequisite for making things happen. Regardless of whether or not I act, things may work out, but, like, in order for something to happen, I need to do something, if that makes sense.

So let us say that, you know, five people do the same thing, some activity. Okay, like eating a mango. Five people eat the same mango. What is their experience of it? Do they all have the same experience of the mango if you ask them? No. So what is it that is happening there? You have to understand when you say things happen. As an example, this experience of eating a mango. How can the same mango give five different experiences to different people?

I mean, but, like, that's because we don't really have a way of understanding each other's experiences except imperfectly right?

No, no. Some people don't like mangoes. Some people like mangoes. Simple thing, right? You don't have to understand it. You know for a fact that the same mango has different reactions, you know, depending on your likes and dislikes or whatever.

Sure.

But the same mango has not no activity in that whole thing. It has no agency there. It has no say in the matter. It has the production of the experience even is with who you know, is it not from anger?

It isn't the man.

If it is the mango, then it cannot be different for different people.

Yeah. It's not the mango, it's the people.

So the mango is entire the mango. So when you say the experience of mango, where is it coming from? What is actually happening there?

Each of these different people is reacting differently to the same substance.

So which one is the reality? What is the actual happening there?

Oh, like in that sense, I agree that like the definition of consciousness is just like having like reporting on a subjective opinion.

Right?

Like so if that is not the.

Definition of consciousness, but it's not the question, the question is simple. What is actually happening when somebody says five. See, you said, you know, something will happen. You know, you want something to happen, anything to happen. Let us say something. When something to happen means some experience, you know, otherwise how will you know it's happened? So that experience which you're talking about of knowing that something has happened or not happened, that experience, as you just said, is subjective. Therefore how will one ever know objectively if something has happened or not happened?

Yeah, we don't.

We don't. So if you don't know anything objectively, then all you know is subjective, which means the mango has nothing to do with it. Sure.

Okay.

Yeah. Subjective means only of the one who's observing.

Yeah.

So nothing to do with the observed.

Sure.

Right. So therefore nothing to do with the mango at all. Some people are scared of mangoes because they had some childhood bad experience or something, you know, so.

And yeah, mangoes as a thing for anything. Right? Like, yeah, I get it.

So once you realize that, then what is the actual happening that we are after?

We don't know that. Like that's the only answer. Like there's not sure.

No, no, no, you do know. You don't pay attention to the fact that you're the only one who knows. Nobody else can possibly know.

But then even if you don't know that, like what? Like then nobody knows.

Exactly. So whether you know or if only you know, it might as well be that nobody knows. Isn't it.

Sure, yeah.

Because that's also just my subjective opinion.

For everybody else, right? So once you understand that where is the question of any kind of knowledge or you know, reality or objective truth?

I mean, I thought like, the point is to use like the like to despite all of this, to come make change in like the real world, right? Like all of this.

Once you say real world again, you'll come into something interesting. What is real? Now if I ask you just now you said everything is subjective. So when you say real, real according to whom? Because that word real is going to be interpreted by your subjective mechanism and you will decide something is real or not real, which only you know, nobody else does. Therefore, again, no point. So what exactly is real world?

Like the lived experience that all of us pretend to have after like this call.

Why, why refer to others? You see, you can never tell other people.

Okay, fine.

That I have.

Through the day, like I do something and in order to do that, I like. Or I either have interactions with the real world or I imagine that I do, or I pretend that I do one of.

See, very simple. I will ask you now one question, okay? Are you sure that right now what you're experiencing is waking state and not a dream state?

I mean like when you question it, you can't be sure. Like it's my own reported experience and we already agree that that's subjective.

So.

So the answer is what?

It's possible that I am dreaming? Yes.

So once, once that becomes clear, then which dream, which real world you're talking about?

I mean, even if this is a dream, it's a very consistent dream, right? Like so.

No, no, by definition, in during the dream it is consistent only. No, during the dream it is not known that it is not a dream. So obviously it is just the same as any other thing. You cannot say it is any different because it is consistent or gravity works or you know, if you burn your hand, you will feel pain, right? That happens in every dream also. No, that's why you say, oh my God, I had a good dream, I had a bad dream, I was scared, I was happy. I wish I had that ice cream right when you wake up.

Yeah, but like you don't feel like. I mean, okay, I understand, right? Like I get the thing. But you don't have like experiences of actual pain, loss, grief.

Like that's why you are, of course you do. That's why you have nightmares and sweet dreams. You don't remember it, but otherwise it is very much real. You know, when it is happening, isn't it.

Fair enough. Okay. Like, yeah, I only remember that I have emotions. And maybe in the dream I don't.

Remember that I have them. In the dream, you don't know your dream, so that's why you think it's real and you can have emotion. Otherwise you'll never have any emotion. If you are aware that it is dream, you cannot have an emotion. You know, it's like watching a movie all the time. You know, it's a movie. You will never laugh or cry because it's, you know, you're not carrying away with it. Right?

But like, even if you do, you can still choose to laugh. So that's the thing.

But that's because the knowledge. No, no, that's because the knowledge of its reality or unreality is being suspended by you consciously. When you watch a movie, you have to consciously forget that it's a movie. Otherwise you'll never enjoy it.

Right?

So enjoyment comes from forgetfulness.

Work with like the like real, real world dream slash, like that one. Right? Like the same principle of ignoring.

First of all, I asked you whether it is a dream or not.

Like, let's say it's a dream. Like suspending like disbelief and assuming that it's not a dream is helpful, right? Like in order to function.

Obviously. But what is the reality of that? When I say I have suspended my belief and now I'm seriously taking this movie seriously. I will discuss all the characters. I wish the character had not done this. This character is stupid. That character is better have all the discussions about its realness. What is the point of that? Isn't it not a real thing? You can have a PhD in it. You can have a PhD in, you know, Star wars saga. There's a course somewhere in some us, you know, it's a PhD in like the Star wars, you know, whatever. But what is the use.

I get it. Right?

You see.

Okay, yeah, yeah, I know. Like there are people who can speak wookie and things like that. Like I get.

Right. But the point is, you know, it is not real thing. It is not knowledge, which is of the nature of reality, is the knowledge of the nature of unreality. That is how things are not really, right?

I mean, that's about things that could be, which is the same thing.

Anything. It's what it is not. That's all. Whether it could be. It was. Whatever, whatever. Point is, it's not the real thing.

Yeah, right.

So we are discussing the unreal. So moment you start discussing interpretations and all that, isn't it not, not reality? Of course, the question begs you. Begs the question, what is reality? Which you still haven't, you know, because, okay, we're starting to talk from this level of, you know, what you perceive as reality. So it's very difficult to just jump. But, you know, first you have to see clearly. Are you sure what you call real is real? No, don't mean in this sense of this reality. I mean, in the sense of the word real. What does it mean? Have you ever given it thought? How do you know if something is real?

I mean, again, like, that has to be filtered through my, like, subjective consciousness, right?

Like, there is no, first of all.

Without me to say that it exists.

Not at all. Not at all, not at all, not at all. That is true that without your being alive, there is no point in discussing it. But we are not discussing that portion. We are discussing the. The discussed right at the moment. Okay, yeah, we're discussing our experience, isn't it, Fine. The experience can only be had, you know, if you're alive or whatever you want to call it. If you're sentient, if you're able to sense something, then you can have an experience. And we are discussing the nature of that experience and trying to understand what is actually the situation. What is happening? When we say I want something to happen, this happened, that the happening we just said is totally subjective. So when we say I want something to happen, exactly what are we perceiving as a happening? Is the question.

What are we perceiving? Okay, so we are perceiving that reality is happening.

Yes. You are assigning reality. So the question of what is real, now, if you pay attention to that.

Okay.

What is it that is real? What do you say? Something is real or not real? How will you decide if something is real or not real? You know, so the first thing that I mean, I will propose, okay, and you can tell me if you agree or disagree, is that the real things are always real. Something that is real is always real. It is always the same. It cannot change. Because if something changed and became real, then it can change again. So it's not real. Real means it is always that same thing, always reality. It cannot change from being real to not real. That something can be called real. Anything else that changes cannot be called real. Right? Because it changes. Therefore, you cannot rely upon it being real.

So let me just, like, refresh my understanding. You're saying that if something change, if it's possible for it to go from unreal to real, then that thing cannot be real. Because, like, if it was real, it Always had to be there. It cannot change that state. Is that right?

Isn't it?

I mean, why. Like, why. Why can't things go from.

Because we are discussing what is real. If something, the very real thing, becomes unreal, then what is the use of discussing what is real? You see, there has to be a distinction between real and unreal. And if you're saying this is real and that is unreal, then the two cannot meet. One cannot become the other. There is no meaning if one becomes the other. And having a distinction.

You can like. You can use the distinction to talk about, like, when they change.

Right? Only talking about it. But we want to find out what it is discussing. We already know, right? Knowledge is all foolish, right? Our own experience is subjective. So that is the pointless distinction to make. The actual thing we need to figure out not in words, because in words we can keep discussing. And you'll never get to the truth because it's just definition.

Okay, so you're saying that if things that are real cannot go from real one.

Real.

Okay, I. It's an axiom. And like I. Yeah, I take it as an axiom.

It has to be. Because otherwise there is no meaning to the word. You see, it is a dual. You know, words are dual. They are opposite. So if there is something good, there has to be bad. It cannot be that good can become bad. And therefore everything is the same. And therefore there is no good and bad. Then there is no point in discussing whether there is good or bad because you're saying everything is the same. So, same way here, you have to accept that there is something called real and there is something called not real. And we are trying to find out the actual thing, okay? And in that situation, that actual thing can never change because it is the actual reality, okay? Not in words, not in description. In description, it will always change because no one can describe the mango in the same way.

Shot. Yeah, like. Okay, fine.

Therefore the actual thing does not need description, but it can be found because it's there.

Okay?

It doesn't need description. In other words, you can eat the mango. You don't have to describe it.

Sure, yeah. Experience exists outside of, like, explanation.

Yes, explanation exists outside of experience. Actually.

True.

Okay, so experience is happening. We are recording it and then conveying it as the unreal part. Because what you convey is the memory, not the experience.

So you are saying the explanation is.

The unreal part, the memory portion from which the explanation arises. Isn't it just a memory?

Yeah.

So when you capture some kind of experience and you say I had this, I had that. Is it the actual experience or a mere description of the memory of that experience?

It's only a description of the memory. Right? Yeah.

Right. So we are never actually speaking of the actual experience, but only of the memory which is knowledge based and not the actual thing. The actual thing is gone. It's happening at all times. We never pay attention. We only pay attention to the what is happening question which can only be answered in conceptual terms.

Right. Amit? This reminds me of like a quote that I was reading yesterday. I hope you don't mind if the interruption.

Yeah, go ahead.

But it was about like. It's by an Italian author named Italo Calvino. The quote is actually desires are already memories he's talking about. It's written from the point of view of Marco Polo. Talking about like cities that he's seen. And this one was like cities and memories. So he says that just like the city that he'd seen had faded in memory, desire to see the city itself is also a memory.

So everything is memory. Because without a memory you cannot desire anything. How will you know to desire something without memory of it? Right.

For some reason that quote really stuck with me and I just wanted to say.

Right, absolutely. So now we push it further and I say what is not memory?

Can you tell me the actual experience? Like the lived experience?

The actual experience. The lived experience. The actual living is not a memory. However, we are never in that. We are always in memory land. Because future is also a memory. You agree future is a memory because there is no future. Actually, yeah. It's based on the past, not simulation. It's based on the past. It's the same as the past. Imagining a future based on the past.

Right.

So it's based on the past, on.

The past and based on knowledge.

Right. So there can be never real future imagined at all.

Unless you could actually be appreciate like which is the. Which is one of the goals, as.

I understand, which is what I began. Which is where we began saying that we are talking about the manifestation principle. How does the dream happen? See, when you say I want something to happen. Okay, yes, we are talking about that description portion. You want something like this to happen. It's a description. So rather there are two things. One is to see and describe, the other is to describe and see. Okay, yeah, so that is the thing. We are going to go from one to the other.

You are saying that we currently describe then see. You're saying we should instead see, then say see and describe.

We always see and describe. Otherwise how Will you describe always you're seeing and describing, isn't it?

Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, fine. You're saying. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, I flipped it in there. Yeah.

Everything is always being like, you eat a mango, you'll tell, oh, this was good, bad, whatever. Always describing.

Yeah, you're describing after the fact. You're saying after the fact. So you're saying that it should instead be the other way around, but that would be the manifestation.

I'm saying that there is no need to see anything.

Okay.

There's nothing to see. You see what will be seen. Can you tell me.

What will be seen? Right, like the. The object. Right. With the experience.

Which object? The object is always the mango, you know?

Yeah.

So the. So the mango is imagined by you, isn't it? Because the mango doesn't have any mangoness in it.

Yeah.

So the mango is called empty. Emptiness means in Buddhism terms, means there is nothing there. Means I will use, you know, it's not. Actually. There are a lot of complicated terms they use for no reason. But bottom line is it has no independent existence whatsoever. To your own point earlier, you need to exist before you can, you know, have this conversation.

Right?

Same thing. Mango has nothing in is only the experiencer.

Who can say, imbues attributes into the object.

Yes. Without that, there is nothing. It's an inert matter. No world is just full of energy, particles, whatever. There is no sensation in that. The sentient is not objects, right? Matter is not sentient. It's insentient. Matter is dead and inert. Elemental. Right?

Yeah.

Whereas consciousness is not in any matter brain. If you put all the cells together, you will not get suddenly consciousness.

Yeah.

So that has to be seen.

Amit, out of nowhere, do you think like consciousness is inherently like a good thing or a bad thing? Is that like one of the questions.

That consciousness is ultimately a horrible thing, isn't it? Because all you will ever be conscious of is knowledge, isn't it? Can you ever be conscious of anything other than knowledge?

Like your knowledge and like lived experience, right?

No, but what are you conscious of, is the question. You cannot be conscious of the future. You cannot be conscious of the now because it's now it's happening. You can only be conscious of the past.

You can be conscious of the now. Right. Like, isn't that.

There is nothing there to be conscious of? No. Whatever is being conscious is nothing. But whatever you say it is now, this is the word now. The minute you say I am conscious of now, where is that now? It's gone.

Yeah. Right. Isn't this like that moment of, like, present? Isn't that like the. What you try and capture in meditation?

That is called. That is not consciousness. We call it awareness because it is not aware of anything in particular. It is awareness itself. There is no consciousness there.

Oh, okay. I thought like, that which is aware is consciousness.

It is conscious of something, then it becomes consciousness. If it's not conscious of anything in particular, it is still there, you know?

Yeah, but like, in order for.

No, no. Awareness is just awareness. No, you don't have to be aware of anything, but in order to be.

Aware of something, you need to be conscious. That's my point.

No, no, we are using words now. We're going back and forth. No, no, no, we are. No, no, we're just using words that have no meaning. So what is actually the thing is, we are being very clear what the definitions are. We are being clear. Pure consciousness, where you have no specifics, just the fact that you are aware, just the fact that you can know, just the fact that you are. Like you said earlier, the fact that you exist, your existence itself is what we call awareness in this vocabulary. So we're not back and forthing on nonsense. So very clearly, awareness is what we call the base reality. And from awareness arises consciousness.

Okay, so consciousness is only of something, isn't it?

Obviously. Otherwise, how will you be see, when you don't have consciousness yet? You say, I was not conscious, I lost consciousness. Right? Which means who was that not who had no consciousness. You understand? You can become unconscious. Means what? Consciousness comes and goes. That doesn't mean you go, okay, there is something when there is no consciousness, you know? Otherwise you wouldn't know that you had no consciousness. Okay, Is this clear or not? It's very important.

I mean, like I. I see.

When you say. Yeah. When you say I was not conscious, who was not conscious and how do you know it?

Oh, like that. Which. Okay, you're saying the answer to that is that which was awareness, isn't it?

Yes, that is what we call awareness. The actual thing. It's there. No?

Yeah. Okay.

Whereas now when we become conscious, we become. I am this, I am that, I see so many things. I am the world, real world, unreal world and all that. Even awareness is an argument. But only in consciousness. But in fact, in reality, where is the argument? The whole thing is not real? No, Very simple. Hey, Sam.

I had lost my conscience for a good amount of hours.

Wasn't it nice?

Yes, totally.

I had a sleep last night with friends, so very good people are always Dreaming and waiting to be asleep. They're all waiting to go back to sleep. Because that is the only thing that gives you the fullness of your being. The rest is fragmented consciousness. You're simply running around in the mind world. Knowing fully well you have no control. Yet you run around as if there is free will, as if something is happening. You see, the minute you say something is happening, you brought in the broken consciousness, which is the unreal portion. Otherwise nothing can be said to be happening because that is a mere description of some limited experience based on memory.

So Amit, like where would this like, fine, Like I, I agree with like most of what like you are saying so far. But like I, what I don't get is like where do we go from here, right?

Like you have Sam, you have to tell now you have to help out. What is the practical use of this?

You know, in the shortest way possible, it stops you from procrastinating in many things. Basically when you. Usually what we do in our life is we keep on reacting and never acting. We react because we add a lot of components in between that are created in the process of adding ourselves in it. When we add ourselves in it, we add opinions, we add perspectives, we add past, we add knowledge. We add so many things that makes everything so difficult and unnecessary. We add so many parameters. So instead of just simple acting based on the data that is available over there, so when you start to let go of yourself and start to see everything as just pure data, that is when it's just a simple calculation that one plus one is equal to two, you don't bring additional parameters and confuse the out of yourself. So it's pure action upon action upon action. And when you do that, that is where pure creativity can arise. Because you are taking action with the adequate knowledge that it requires to do it. Instead of you bringing yourself and focusing on the problem within the problem.

So let me put it slightly differently. What is beautifully said, Sam, I can't. I love having you on the calls because you can explain it. Now what he's saying is very simple. When you act with awareness, but you don't consciously act. There is a difference. When you consciously act, you're acting based on your own knowledge. You're based on all the things you know and all these things identity, you are acting. Then I must act. Otherwise, in awareness, with awareness, what is there? No knowledge is there because all knowledge has become nullified in the knowledge of knowledge, right? So there, there is no particular knowledge. There is only action. Because what is not action is Called reaction or another knowledge. It is involuntary. So if you are unaware, that will happen. But if with awareness, that will not happen. Instead what will happen is actual. You will be able to be yourself, which is not the illusory being trapped in this nonsensical non world. Manifestation is our own, you see. It's our nature. Every day we manifest. In the dream, you're manifesting. In the waking state, you're manifesting. Manifesting is our nature. We are existence itself. We are nature not at all apart from it, not a single iota of doubt. What arises is the ignorance of this fact. That's all that is called consciousness. The minute you say I know or you eat from the tree of knowledge, or as it was said in the Bible, you will fall from paradise. Why? Because you believe yourself to be the person and no longer what reality is. That knowledge of me, that knowledge of I, I am this person, that person, or this or that, that is the knowledge acting. So conscious action is always knowledge based, whereas awareness. There is neither action nor reaction there. There is no procrastination experience there. It is not only the flow state, it is beyond everything that you can imagine. Because imagination doesn't function there. Imagination can only be of the past. Imagination is the past. So what is the practical aspect? You want to manifest something, right? Getting out of your own way. You are manifestation itself. Where is the problem? Whatever you say will happen, except you must make sure that. You also make sure. You don't say it will not happen.

But okay, like I. I'm still pretty unclear on like how you act without knowledge. What do you act based on?

See, I'll tell you. See, you're walking on the street, okay? Suddenly a bus is about to hit you. Okay?

Yeah.

What is it that you do there? Before you know what happens, you've jumped out of the way. You might fall down and all that in some ditch because you didn't see it, but you're alive. And so you're like, oh my God, thank God I got out of the way and all that, right? Who was acting there? Were you acting consciously?

Yeah, like some part of me was.

That part of you which is digesting the food right now, without any control from you, that part which is breathing, you know, blood is pumping, you know, it's keeping you, all your, all your body parts together, it is holding it. You see, that part of you is doing its job, no? Yeah, but also you have this other part which is the self reflective consciousness, metacognition. Other than that, only two things are happening. One is Everything is happening and metacognition is happening where metacognition has nothing to do with what is happening. It's simply meta cognition.

But it filters how you see everything else.

Correct, which is why it is the problem. No, filtering it, it's not seeing reality. You know, you're filtering it based on your. What you already know, which is again a filter on. Based on the past.

But some filters are good, right? Like it is a filter.

No, the question is, what is reality? We're not saying what is good or bad. And all these things in the terms.

Of you mentioned, very clear in the beginning that we are not talking about words, we are talking about like what actual reality is. And. Yeah, so it doesn't matter because there.

You will get stuck in the la la land of unreality of discussing whether it's good or bad. Whereas we are saying first, all there is is reality. Get out of it.

Okay.

Okay. So in other words, how do you.

Choose to act like that? Right? Like, fine, you jump.

I understand very, very clearly that you don't have any choice in the matter. You cannot choose. What choice have you ever had? You were born to your parents without your knowledge.

Yes.

All the activities happened because of that first event. If you hadn't met them and everybody else that you met based on that, those things would not have happened. Nothing would have happened. We would not have met.

Right.

This call wouldn't be happening. So which part of it was happening based on your free will?

Okay, so I need to accept that I don't have any such.

Isn't it? You're operating under illusion, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, like, you don't have.

To accept you can continue to behave in any way you want. But the question is only simple. If you want to find out what is happening, you have to see clearly. And then based on your own understanding and all those things, you decide whether it is what it is or not. Yeah, fine, you can experience it.

I had limited amounts of control over what has happened so far.

See, if you have limited control, you basically have no control. Right. Even if some small thing is not in your control, the complexity of the whole chaos theory will basically, you know that small becomes big. Right?

Okay, right, right. Like I. Yeah, either you have perfect.

Control or you have no control. There is no like half control around because you cannot, you know, get an output based on an input unless you control the process of transformation. If there is something in the process of transformation you don't control. Impossible to get the output tube desire, isn't it?

You can control some things and not others, right? Like I can choose to see, you.

Want something, but in order to get that something, the process of getting that something should be in your control.

Right? But like. Okay, I'm talking more in the probabilistic sense, right? Like you can.

I'm talking about very simple sense. This is all probability, ms, not real. In fact, if you want it, you must have control, right? It's not improbable. And probability, all that is imagine, because as if it is there. No, if you want to have something specific, you must have the way to make it. Isn't that true? Or you are imagining it will happen somehow. That imagining of happening somehow is imagination based on the past and based on not reality, isn't it? How will it happen somehow?

Right? Okay, fine. Yeah, because I do.

It is called hoping, you know, it is hope.

Okay, I can't guarantee that it will happen. Yes. So there is no.

Obviously so, right? There is no choice in the matter. So when you, when you don't have a choice in the matter, where is the question of choosing to do or not do?

There isn't one.

But there isn't one. This has to become actually the fact. Because right now it is. Intellectually you're saying that because it makes logical sense. You know, if you write a simulation, this is the facts of those so called dream characters, okay? Like in a dream, if we are talking and somebody is saying all these things, if I go and tell them, hey, don't worry, this is just a dream, they'll think I'm crazy. Hey, right, Just like now, no difference.

Yeah, right.

So these things, you have what is called as meditation, as multiple things, you know, it's all nonsensical words. But in the end it is the fructification of reality which is knowledge driven. You know, it's called gyan fractification. You know, everything is going through a, what you call manifestation. You want something, something happens.

Okay.

That idea of something happening, that illusory happening.

Yeah, okay.

Whatever you want in the dream. For example, if I say in a dream you will experience all your desires, will you be happy or sad?

Happy.

You sure? Because it's only a dream.

I still experience it.

Reveal to me, right? The minute you wake up, you will be lamenting. Most people will be. That experience is, oh my God, you know, everybody is gone, dead. They know I want it back. I wish I was there, you know, That very desire, what is it one has to see? And of what can desire be? Isn't it only of the Past?

Yeah.

So one desires the past. Of what uses the past when one is seeking reality? Where is the question of past in there?

It shouldn't be there. But it is.

No, no. Because you're believing the past to be real. Past cannot be real, you know? But past.

Okay.

Okay. Past is gone, isn't it? Is there something called past? Your past, my past. All different, isn't it? What do you remember in your memory? What I remember? Is there any reality to something you. Some idea you put in memory? No. So if everything is the past, everything is memory. What are you left with?

Like action. Like awareness of one.

Ultimately, you will realize that all there is is awareness.

Okay.

Because everything else is not the real part.

Yeah. Okay.

That's it.

But then whatever is just awareness, right? Like there is no reason to act one way versus the other.

No, no, no. That question is the false question. Because the one to act doesn't exist. That question itself doesn't arise once you realize the truth. This question will not arise whatsoever. Nothing will arise. You will be in that permanent state of bliss what they call Satchitanand. There are three things to it. Existence. We discussed. We all know we are. It's evident that you exist. The second is consciousness. Existence. Consciousness, bliss. You know our knowledge portion. Otherwise you will not know you are. See, I am is an experience. I don't have to tell it to myself. The second is that I also know that I am.

Yeah.

So that is knowledge. And the experience of just this part is evident in sleep where there is no other knowledge. Which is what we are calling consciousness. Right.

It's just I am and I know that I am.

No, I know that I am is. I know that I am is only in consciousness.

Oh, oh. Why?

Because otherwise you will not know you are. Because knowledge is only consciousness. Awareness does not know anything. Because knowledge is what you call knowing, which is only in consciousness. It has to be of something based on the past and based on concepts. In other words, you will never find reality in this unreality.

So you're saying we don't have metacognition in dreams? We don't.

Metacognition and cognition and all these things are nothing but just words, right? What is actually there is just consciousness.

No. And the same thing, Right? Like I know that I am like that, thinking. Does that exist in a dream?

It is there. Otherwise you will not. Obviously. Otherwise you will not have a dream. You will not say, I had a dream. I had. I went here, I went there. Okay. Consciousness itself. Is that the I know principle? Consciousness Equal to knowledge. That's it. Otherwise, what do you call consciousness? Another word only no.

So, okay, and we instead should seek awareness.

No, you have to see what is actually happening. That is what you have to do. Then you cannot seek anything. Nobody to seek but to see clearly. It doesn't require anything. Not just to remain yourself. You are seeing everything. Just keep seeing this fact, what I'm pointing, that in fact, nothing is happening. All these things we discussed. If you see for yourself, won't it become clear? If I say you want to have water in a desert, you see the mirage, you run behind it. Every time, you keep running. When will you stop? If I say, don't run, man, it's only a mirage. But every time, so thirsty, you know, people go mad in the desert, you know, so they keep running behind the water. It's not there. But when will they stop?

When they know it's not there?

Because they call it. Everybody calls it a mirage. They say the word mirage, you know, they say it's a mirage. This happens in the desert, they say, but when it happens, they run behind it.

Okay? They need to accept that it is a mirage.

That acceptance is what if I tell you it is a mirage, don't run. And you say, okay, fine, I will accept this fact. It's. I know physics and all, I know. But then when you're walking there, you run behind it. What is the difference between knowledge versus being, you know?

Okay, you're saying we need to act on it in order to actually.

Only action. Only action is there. There is no knowledge portion at all.

Knowledge is not necessarily that. Past knowledge of course helps, right? But it doesn't necessarily.

Listen, all of this we have to remember, point us back. What is. The goal here is to find out what is real. If you want to find out what is real, if your past is useful and all that is only for another past, you see, right? You can manifest anything because it's simply consciousness. What is there in that? But you find reality, you'll never find it in manifestation.

So, no, what I was saying is that, for example, knowledge comes in handy when. If you wanted to book an Uber today, right? So you know that you have to grab your phone, you have to install the Uber app, you have to add the payment process. All right? So you think that you got it from the past knowledge, but if you analyze every microsecond, every action was literally just happening.

Absolutely. So the knowledge is not really knowledge. It is a description. You understand? I did this, I did that. I paid with Uber, I went In Uber. But it's not actually, isn't it? It's a happening. You know what is probably more accurate to say is I saw myself take an Uber. I saw myself pay with this. You know, because that's an actual fact.

Yeah, like a dream.

So to see clearly, one doesn't need anything special. The same seeing equipment is used, which is called the mind. And by seeing the through that mind, the mind disappears. Because what is seen is the mind.

But it still filters how you get information. Like, how does the mind disappear? I don't know how that happens. I can't make my mind disappear.

You don't need to know because that you, who knows, is the thing that disappears. That is called mind. And you will be left with what really is there, which is called awareness. Only now we call it awareness. And therefore it is not really awareness.

Like awareness is a description of it, isn't it?

Absolutely correct. So we are talking about the most rarefied things, my friends. The two of us here, three of us. And we are putting this in action because the world requires little bit of, you know, shaking up only because it is a dream. The Leela, the play of consciousness. And one remains awake.

So like, let's say like I. I don't understand. How do I make it disappear? Like what do I.

You cannot. Right?

It just.

You cannot make it. It's like, what. What is it that makes you go to sleep? Emptying the mind, that same thing.

So, but then you can't act in that state.

You're just emptying that you is already not acting. No, it's thinking that it's acting. That thinking disappears because that thinking is the false part.

But you're saying the actions can continue your digestion.

Who is doing the digestion right now?

The. But like you still need conscious action.

Are you consciously digesting your food?

No.

Or is it unconsciously happening? Even in your sleep state you will be digesting. No.

Yeah.

So even in unconscious state it is happening. Conscious state also it's happening. What is the. Who is doing it?

The body.

Can the body do something? Because body is just matter. You know, just matter. Dead dead particles. Energy particles or matter. You know, co energy particles. Like mud or. No difference.

No.

At the end of the day, all atoms are the same. So the body is just a collection of dead matter. So it cannot be doing anything.

I mean like it can't do anything with agency. But things can happen automatically, right? Like lots of things happen, right?

Absolutely correct. Now where is the boundary there? Is it the body doing something? Clump of Atoms here and a clump of atoms there. Or is it just the entire set of atoms in a singular dance?

There is a lot of unity of purpose.

There is only unity. No, where is the question of not unity? Is it not that the entire thing is a single set of A events from the Big Bang onwards of just a reaction, reaction, reaction and B, actually, in fact, what is reality is one thing. As you see everything around you in fact connected. Where is the question of not connected? I mean, only in the mind conceptually, like the connection, conceptual understanding, but that.

What that is in the past, right? Like that is all knowledge.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Even the description of the world as trees and different parts of the world is knowledge. Where is the different parts? It's just an idea based on your perception. There is no tree. No, in fact what you call a tree is not independently a tree. It is like saying my nose is doing something independently. It's not doing anything independently. The whole body is acting as one.

And you're saying in the same way, like everything is acting as like one, isn't it?

The moment the Big Bang explosion happened, everything began to happen as a immediate action and reaction, action and reaction, action, reaction to the previous moment in time. So where is the question of something not happening, you know, at once or as synchronistically with everything else? Where, where is it? I mean, where is the sequencing? It's not.

Synchronicity doesn't mean like you like unity of purpose.

Right?

Like just because things are happening at the same time doesn't mean they're happening for the same reason.

No, purpose is only for you, for the individual, partially. Overall, there is no purpose in the system because it is simply a reaction to the past. No choice in the matter.

True.

So that, so only that limited knowledge seeks meaning and purpose because it is seeking meaning and purpose based on its own self and which is a limited unreal perception driven past.

Oh, you are saying that things consciousness.

Or like that overall consciousness, Memory is consciousness. What else you call knowledge? Where else will knowledge sit? What is knowledge other than memory? Yeah, right. And the actual knowledge which we call knowledge, consciousness, bliss part, that is not really knowledge, it's experience itself. You know, you are. No, that, that it doesn't need any explicit knowledge.

True.

That experience is itself knowledge of your being.

Yeah.

So that's all that is the truth, isn't it? At all times now to experience it, which is when you say mind disappear. This, that, that I said for, you know, I just used some words, but that Actual experience which you may seek. You have to see what is the difference between the experience you're having and the other experience that you may see, right? You have to understand so that you know what it is. And then you realize that any experience that you see can only be had based on past. So the experience is itself the past. Yeah, so what experience? There's no experience. It's like in sleep, man, bliss. There is no problems. Otherwise you'll say, I want that. I want that. You know, I had an experience like, oh, I don't want that. Based on what? On how. How will you say. Knowledge and memory, which you are giving meaning to, as we said earlier, do or be anything.

Like extending that you can say be, do anything. There is no.

Exactly. The activity has no meaning there. It is just a manifestation principle. You get out of your own way and manifest. It's called lucid dreaming by some people. But we don't need to go there, you know, we remain in reality. It is not. What is the point in lucid dreaming? The foolish point? No, it's dream. What is the point? How much effort will that take? Why bother? Just go back to sleep, finished. To realize that the one who is the dreamer itself is the dreamed. That's all. In other words, there is only dreaming. You can call it dreaming, waking life, whatever word you can use now because words have no meaning.

And then, yeah, fine, okay, There is just.

There is only light. There is only light. There is only beautiful manifestation which is all me, you, all of us, one thing. And there is only activity. And from your heart, you do whatever you want. We are creating a wake. We are going to employ, you know, hundred million people, billion people. You do paintings, whatever you want, man. Whatever you want you can do, no question. If you realize you are dreaming, what will you do? Do that.

Nothing stops you anytime. So once Amit had given me an example where he said that if you live the dream that you are living rather than waking up, then if you have a problem, you are going to swim in that bubble of problem and you will never get the solution because you are swimming inside the problem, you know, forever. So unless you don't see it from the outside, how can you know the solution? How can you know what are the boundaries of the problem? What are the limitations of the problem?

So any problem that you have with yourself, you need to be outside of yourself to understand.

No, no, no. Any understanding can be only inside you. You'll never get out outside yourself with understanding. Oh, because understanding is knowledge based. What understanding will you have.

But you can have awareness.

Yeah. That has no understanding, no knowledge, no consciousness, no right, wrong, nothing. No thing is there in that space. It is what is buzz.

That chaos that you have created for yourself. The labels that you have created. The past and the memories. It's a very tricky thing to understand. But at the same time when you understand it's. It's very simple to understand that no one's telling you to forget your past memories, but just telling you to. For if, if I am speaking right now, I don't think there is any memory controlling my action, my lips and everything. I. I'm just talking. If I analyze every microsecond is have that is happening right now. It's just happening. I'm talking.

And so beautifully said Sam and I will add what you just said there. We're not asking you to forget, we're asking you to recognize.

Yeah. Recognize and like act. How do I act on that recognition?

There is no question. Once you recognize, how can you act differently? If you see the bus attacking you, will you be able to stand and leave the. Leave the bus coming towards you. You recognize it, you're already acting. Your body is doing it. So called body. It's happening.

For example, when you're eating a mango, do you need to tell yourself that you are eating a mango? You did so much stuff to get this mango. You're just eating it, right? The process is happening, you are loving it. And you don't need to tell yourself that it's a mango or you are holding it and you are supposed to.

Bite it now with your or this.

Side of their mouth or anything is just happening. So life is always happening, all these decisions. So you don't need to put labels on it or tell yourself that there is something special you need to do to do it. There is just do it or not do it.

But in that case then how would you improve from your mistakes? Sometimes what you do won't be good and then you want to happen.

All knowledge, all action, all things, so called happenings are actually operating based on the past knowledge only, right? Even recognition of what the past. So again of the past. So the limited knowledge is already happening. And as you keep recognizing more and more and more the action is based on the knowledge. There is no question of who will recognize and how will it improve and why. And all that based on your own awareness, level of recognition, therefore of your own level of awareness. That's it. You will be acting differently.

Oh, I can give you another like a, like the first, first call that I had with Amit, right? He made me realize that I am not a designer at all. So what I mean by that is, if someone comes me, comes to me with a problem, I would be like, hey, I am a designer. I have put that label onto myself. Hence, I think the only solution to this is, the best solution for this is to draw it out to create an illustration or create a website. But it cannot be limited to that. It can be if I remove that label, if I remove the understanding of myself from myself, if I remove all the past memories of my mom and dad took a huge amount of deal to make me a designer and stuff like that. If I remove all that, I am just no one, then there can be so many solutions to that problem that are in fact much more creative than the solutions that I gave that I had when I labeled myself as someone. You understand?

Yeah. Okay.

So that solution can be anything. I would say that, hey, we can make a video or a movie about it, or we can go this way or go that way. But the fact that I limited myself, that I am only this, I just limited my solutions.

I.

Just swam in my own dream without waking up. So this is like one way that you can have genuine creativity when you are really awake.

All right, until next time, guys. We'll talk.

Yes.

All right.

Thank you. Cheers.

Cheers.

Bye.