iRealization - Season 01 Episode 13

The actual call is about, you know, the underlying understanding of what makes the mind function, you know, the way it does. And that's what we discuss. Usually if you look at our little small community, a few people that are focused on understanding where, you know, creativity and intelligence comes from. And creativity and intelligence does not come from, you know, the past. It does not come from knowledge. So it comes from somewhere else. And being able to discover what that is is what gives you the ultimate, what shall I say, power over your own self, You know, so that is what it is. Do you know where creativity comes from? Do you know where you comes from? You have an idea? Do you know what you are?

I have some ideas, and all of them are true in different aspects and at different levels of abstraction. But I guess on. Especially given what we've discussed earlier, I don't think I know specifically what you.

Are talking about in the. In that sense. Yeah. So the simplest way we start this conversation is by asking, like, I will ask simple question to you, right? If I ask you, who are you? What is the answer?

Mind.

Are you the. You're the mind? Is that what you said?

Yeah. At least most days I feel like that.

So how does the rest of it fit in? You know, what is mind and what is not mind and what is the world and what is everything else? It has to fit in, if that is what you are.

When I was younger, I used to think it didn't have to and that things are just much more random and chaotic now. I'm more thoughtful about that question.

So the question is. Okay, let me ask the question differently, all right? Do you know whether this experience that you're having, is it a dream or is it not a dream?

I don't know.

You don't know. So this was the whole thing, what we discuss here, not knowing what you are in the situation, we go about our lives, you see. Yeah. And it's a foolhardy mission. No, not knowing and acting upon the basis of that act is the very unreality that one lives. You see? But if your dream state remains consistent, does it make any sense to do the things that you're doing?

If your dream is consistent, then why not?

Right. What is that like?

If your dream state remains consistent?

No, no, it is a simple question. It's not my dream state. It's. Your question is to you a question is, is this a dream state or not a dream state? Right.

So my point is that assuming that I am in a dream state, since my dream state remains consistent under, like, various experiments and observations then like you may as well proceed under the assumpt.

You got cut out of it. What is that?

No, I was saying that like it's extremely likely or possible that all of this is a dream state. But since I cannot prove otherwise, I cannot actively like wake up in some sense. I assume that I am awake and.

Go on with the dream. Right. That's the very assumption one is talking about. So the waking state is only perceived in the dream state. You know, what you call waking is only perceived during dreaming, is it not? I don't know, maybe what you call, what you call. Yeah, so what you call the difference between dreaming and waking is not there until after that particular state ends, you know.

Oh yeah, right.

Therefore, during the state itself there is no difference, you know, Because the knowledge, because the knowledge of it being a dream is not there. Dreaming is actually experienced as waking during the dream, you know, That's why you said I was here, I was there, I ate ice cream and all that. You know, when you wake up from the dream, you may say that, you may say that, oh, that was very nice dream. I was in, you know, London and I went and ate one ice cream there and all that stuff. All that may happen to you in your dream where you are like as if awake and you're going to different places, you know. So the experience of waking is happening during the dreaming.

Yes.

And we said earlier that there is no way to tell whether something is a dream or not a dream during the dream.

Yes.

So what you're experiencing now is known to be waking. Because you say that it's waking, you tell yourself, this is waking, isn't it? Nobody told you that, you only said it. Yeah. So you yourself have woken up here and saying this is not a dream and this is waking. That is your belief. Yes. And there is no basis to this belief, you know.

Except my subjective opinion that I did wake up.

Yeah. Other than that. So that happens in dreaming.

Yes.

So whether this is dream or not a dream is not clear right. Now you understand, what we are clear about is the fact that there is a conscious state which you can call either dreaming or waking.

Right.

Okay. So there we are now beginning to see that it is not actually a state or some sort of a container. You said earlier, you know, if it's a state stable thing, we don't, we definitely know that it's not stable. Every few hours it disappears.

I mean, you can push it.

Yeah, you can if you like, you can, you cannot, you cannot push it beyond a certain point. It Disappears. You cannot hold it. You cannot make it stay. You cannot make it stable. You cannot make it stay as it is for a long time. It cannot. You don't have control of it. Even if you pretend that you will stay awake and you will push it and all after a while, you can't. It just goes. You cannot control it. True. So there is no control there. Let's ask another question. Do you believe in free will?

I used to. Now again, I'm not sure.

In the dream state, does one have free will.

To wake up eventually? Yes.

No, because the. Both the falling asleep and the waking up happens involuntarily, right? Falling asleep also happens involuntarily. You're lying there and suddenly you're asleep. Or you're sitting there, you're doing something and you're very tired, and suddenly you fall asleep. That was not in your control. And in the same way, you might be having a very nice dream in the middle of eating a nice ice cream and just about to eat the last part, which is the yummiest portion of chocolate and all that, and just before you're ready to eat it, suddenly you wake up. So the whole thing was not in your control, you know, the falling asleep and waking up, Both of them happened, and you were a witness to that. Then you wake up and say, oh, I had a great dream. I was there, I was here, I had a dream. I know you will not say I went to London and I did these things there. You will say I had a dream in which I saw myself going to London and then I ate something and I was doing all these things and then I woke up. It was very nice, right? Or not very nice. In both cases, neither were you involved in the falling asleep, nor were you involved in the waking up. In fact, nor were you involved in the whole situation in London. And ice cream and everything just happened there, you know? So coming back to the question of free will, do you believe that you have free will in a dream? No, no. No free will in the dream. Because the dream is playing automatically like a movie, and you're just watching it. It's like a projection, you know, like a dream. You're not actually doing anything. You're actually lying down in bed and you're imagining the who happen.

Amit, have you heard of lucid dreaming? I know it's a tangent, but.

Yeah, it's not a tangent. So the question of lucid dreaming is what now? If you have to. You have to see clearly that the dream is happening on its own, you Know. So then the question of lucid dreaming, when you bring that up, the question becomes, what is the meaning of lucid?

You are self aware enough to realize that you are in a dream.

And then what?

And then, at least according to Reddit, you now have control over your dream state.

No, no, no, no. First of all, you have to see very, very clearly that who is it that has any control or does not have any control. The person who did not have any control does not have control, not because they did not have control and that they were a person there and all these things. The reason why they did not have control is because they were not a person, they were not an individual there in order to have control. Somebody in your dream. Suppose you meet a lady named Sarah in the dream, okay? And you're going around in her now, she becomes aware of herself and she becomes self aware and knows that it is a dream, you know? Now can Sarah control your dream? No, but it's lucid dreaming, you know? Okay, Right. Who is lucid? What is that lucidity? Who is it? What, what is the meaning of the word who? You know, the word who implies individuals and, and free will requires individual actors, you know, they have free, free agency, like I have a ch matter, you know? But that individual who has choice is not there. It's a perception, Therefore lucidity. It can be there, but it's not for anyone in particular, you see? So we'll come to lucid dreaming. We will. I promise you it will come. But for that you have to understand who, who is the dreamer, you know.

Is that.

My friend, you have to understand ultimately the truth. The truth is that this is the lucid dream.

Sure, I'm willing to take that because I have no idea, I have no way of disproving that. Right. Like I thought that.

No, no, no, it is not a question of disproving that. It is a question of realizing the truth, which is why it's called realization or self realization.

I have no idea what that would mean.

It would understand reality in a way that does not require any understanding at all. Because all understanding is knowledge based and knowledge is always partial and has no completeness to it. For example, if something were to happen on the street and somebody has an accident, is there a cause and effect?

There is some cause and there is very specific effect, right? Yes.

Now, which came first, cause or effect?

In that case, the cause, right? The guy hitting.

Now, when somebody is walking on the street and when suddenly an accident occurs, or if somebody is, you know, somebody notices something like an accident happening. If the accident occurs, right? You either care for it or you don't care for it. It's a small accident or a big accident, you know, minor accident or a big accident. So in the case of a minor accident, you may not even care. In the case of a big accident, you care. The cause is is, you know, looked into, you know, the minute you care for it. If you don't care for it, there's no cause. And if you don't care for the cause, there's no effect. So which comes first?

There is no cost to you, Right? If the gu to get hit, to go got hit. Even if there's a tiny fender vendor, his day is ruined in some sense for him.

No, that's not the question. In what situation will you care? When you are going there and because others, you cannot discuss what, why they are doing things, you know, because we do not have access to their consciousness or their intelligence. All one has is the access to one's own intelligence. So one has to rely upon oneself to understand reality. So when you're walking on the street and if there is your car, you get to a fender bender and don't care because it's so minor, you don't care. The effect and cause both are, you know, negated.

Yes, as far as your mind is concerned.

But the cause becomes irrelevant only if the effect is relevant. So which comes first? Cause or effect?

Still the cause. Just because it's irrelevant doesn't mean it was.

No, no, no. If it is, it is definitely the case. Because something that is irrelevant has no bearing upon you. For example, let us say that there is an alien civilization that has no way to contact human beings. Right? Is there any meaning in that? Again, it has no meaning because it has no way to contact you. So reality means you must be able to access it. You must be able to have a meaningful connection to that thing because otherwise it doesn't exist. Existence means being able to connect to something, you know, being able to access it, being able to be in its presence, being able to interact with something. That means it's there, it's real. If it doesn't exist or it exists outside of your reality. The meaning of existence has nothing. No word, there's nothing there. It doesn't have any meaning. Something cannot exist outside your reality because the meaning of existence is itself, you know, not there. In that word, to exist, you have to be in the same reality. Meaning of the word existence has to be common for all perception parties. Parties who are perceiving this have to Agree that something exists. So in agreement comes the very factor of existence. You see, perception is required for existence. Otherwise how do you know something exists? So if you don't know that something exists, it doesn't actually exist. You see, if a tree falls or it's in right.

I mean, I, I get the argument you're going with, but there are other possibilities, right? You could be wrong. You could be mistaken. You could be lacking the faculty to perceive something.

It doesn't matter. It does not matter because your, your actions and reactions are based on what you know, right or wrong. You are going to act and react based on your knowledge only.

Right? But it is irrelevant.

No, no, no. Right or wrong is irrelevant. Right or wrong is a judgment later on somebody will make. But right now, you know what you know. So like a child who wakes up and has never touched or talked to anybody and is going through life just as their own, you know, explorations. There is no question of right or wrong there. Simply they are doing things there. Right or wrong. Suppose there is only one individual in the world. There is only me or you. You're doing something, many, many things. You're planting seeds, you're eating, you're doing everything. Where is the question of right and wrong? Right and wrong only comes when there are other people involved. You see? So that question of right and wrong is meaningful? Yes. It is totally meaningless. It has to do. Only with convention do we all agree it's right or wrong. You know, so that's a societal creation that nothing to do with reality. What we are talking about is ideas. And ideas are not reality. Reality has no idea about it. Reality is, you know, totally orthogonal to right and wrong, to good and bad, to, you know, likes and dislikes, to hot and cold and, you know, all that stuff because it makes right, right and wrong possible. Possible. It makes cold and hot possible. You see, it is what enables anything to exist. So we get stuck in the actual content. We say, this is right, that is right, this is wrong, that is wrong. Like when I'm driving and I get into an accident, I will say your fault. Why you, you know, press brakes and all that. I don't realize that he pressed break because he was distracted and his, you know, mom is not well, and his mom got into an accident, like, or something happened. And 10 years back, you know, she had this issue. Ever since then she's been in this constant state of anxiety. In this morning there was a problem and then he was distracted and he pressed the brake instead of the accelerator and got into an accident. Now, for you to say that, you know, this person is at fault is a foolish comment, is it not? It's not a fault. It's just an action reaction that happened, you know, a chain of events. And if you go further back, you will say, his parents were born, his mom was born, his mom's mom was born. You go all the way back. Where is the cause for the actual accident? Which one is the cause? I mean that, in other words, there is no cause. Everything is happening all at once, in parallel. And to say something specific happened is the effect. And then to divine its cause is the second thing. So the first thing comes is the effect, and you see something and then you make up what happened. Because in reality, nothing happened there. The whole situation is unfolding as a single dream or a sequence, waking sequence, dream sequence, whatever you want to call it. It's just a, you know, unraveling, you know, unfolding. Everyone's doing their own thing automatically. There is no question of individual free will at all, is it not? Because it's the reaction to previous moment, in the previous moment, in the previous moment, you can go all the way back to the Big Bang where the whole universe began. And in fact, everything has been happening automatically ever since. Because physics and there is nothing called free will at all. And then, then, so one has to find out what is this whole, you know, situation? How does one extricate oneself from the false? Once you realize this is false, then what is the truth?

But if you don't have free will, any realization that you are making is.

Also not going to be meaningful in that sense. It is not meaningful in knowledge terms because realization is of two things. You know, realization. For example, if you are walking on the street and a bus is about to hit you, and you jump out of the way of this bus without thinking about it, and you land in a puddle and you fall down and you kind of make your pants dirty, and you were going to go for an interview and that suddenly got messed up. Two things are happening there. One is that shit, you got messed up and now you have to change and it's such a pain. But the first part, which is where you were about to die and you didn't die because you jumped out in time. That action, which happened automatically, without your thinking about it, and you landed on this puddle. That particular was perfect. There was no thought, there was no, you know, oh, my God, how is this bus going to go exactly? How should I plan my trajectory of this jump out of its way and should I land like a ballet Artist or should I fall down? These things are not in your thoughts. Pure action without any thoughts, jumping out.

Of the way, without any conscious thought, without any perception of thought, Right? That doesn't mean the thought didn't exist. You just couldn't perceive it.

That is. That is the two types of. Not a question of perception. You're actually not perceiving it. It's called reflexive action. There is no thought there. It's reflex. If I poke you, you will jump. There is no thought there. You're not going to think, even though. Even however fast it is, you're not going to think about what happened and then how to jump. You know, that is not a conscious thought at all. There is no thought. In fact, what is that called thought? You know, thought is nothing but a description of what happened, already finished. You cannot describe the future, nor can you describe the now. What you can describe is the past only, is it not.

You can imagine a future you can.

Imagine, which is not there. So you can only describe what is already there. And it is only the past. If you describe the future, you are imagining it. It's not there. If you describe the now, that has no meaning. So the only thing you are able to describe is your idea of the past, your ide of the past, which also is not there, which is also not there. So therefore we have come to the realization now that the whole situation is of the past, of the false knowledge which is holding us back in terms of what is real and what is not real. People who get stuck in the past, you know, somebody said something to them, or if something happened to them, there are people who never come out of it. There are people who never go back to their families and make up for something that happened or, you know, regret. Regrets when they die, they're, you know, they're saying, shit, I should have just gone and said something to somebody. Why? Because they've lived their entire time in. In falsehood thinking that the past is real. Whereas at any time the past has no meaning. At any time you can get up and say, forget about the past. I'm done. And anytime you will do it at some point in life, you'll be like, I should have done this years ago. So this is the nature of thought and the nature of reality and the nature of human beings and the nature of action and reaction and what is called as karma. You. Whereas at any time one is ready to be freed and to be totally free to operate in reality, which you call lucid dreaming. But it's not dreaming at that point, because the dream ends when the dream ends, only you can be lucid. You know, that's the awake state. So what people have experienced in their lives and they can definitely, you know, attest to, to in their own minds, in their own clarity is they know what is the sleeping state. Every day, every day people sleep, they go to sleep, the whole world disappears, their body disappears, everything disappears. They feel very peaceful. And when they wake up, they say, oh, I slept very well. Even though there was no body, no world, nothing, they say, I slept very well. All right. Then when you wake up, you're in the waking state. Everybody knows that they also are able to see the dream state, how it is. And when you bring up the comparison with the dream and waking state, you will realize that in the waking state or in the dream state, you feel awake. So there are two states, the sleep state and the dreaming state in which you feel awake. The real so called state of awake has never been experienced. And when you do experience that there is no individual there because the dream has ended. And in that state we call it awake because it's just a word. But it's not either waking or dreaming or sleeping. That's the thing.

And instead, okay, have you experienced the state?

It's the normal, it's the natural state, that's the reality. There's no need to experience it. That's what's happening. So once becomes very clear about reality, reality, you don't have to go anywhere to experience reality. No, reality is all the time. That is what it is, the reality. So you become what is, or rather you remain as what you are and no longer become what you are not. Today you might say, I am this, I am that, I am a designer, I am a coder, I'm a, you know, I'm a husband, I'm this, I'm that. So many things one might say, but is it that not only in the dreaming state, there is something more, something that changes? You know, you, you might be a designer today, you might be something else tomorrow. So what is it that you actually are? It is nothing to do with what you are now and what you were yesterday and what you might be tomorrow. That becoming process is just a idea driven process. That I am like this, I'm like that. You have a self image, you know, that you're trying to project that you want to be. But that's the thing. Being does not require action, Action you already are. Only imagination needs any action to be what you're not. Hi Manshu. Welcome. Yeah, does any of that make sense to you?

No, I think we had, like, similar discussions quite, quite a few times. And like, like, personally, I could have, I, I, I was able to understand.

A lot of it.

Especially on the mushroom trip.

Yeah.

And especially after that, like a few days after that.

So. Yeah, that's what it is. So you have to. Yeah, yeah.

It was like a difference between, like, right now, it's like listening from you and, and then trying to actualize it. But then during that time, it was just like, knew it all along sort of thing. So that, that's like a completely different.

Right. So to realize. Yeah, you cannot, you cannot rely upon drugs, you know? So what you have to see. So what you have to see is. No, no, no, no. Once you see it, what is it that you're seeing? You know? And who is seeing it? See, the problem is what happens is the experience becomes important. Important. You see, you saw something, and because of that seeing, you created an experience. You know, what happens is I, I was driving, I bumped into something because of this and my mind about how I love my car and all that, I created a bigger problem than there is. You create an experience, you say, oh, my God, there was an accident. He did this, he did that. All those things are created based on your own attachment to the ideas that you have about whatever it is. Okay? So when you're, when you're in that mushroom trip or any other trip or any other experience, that experience that you're having is being captured as something you know. And now you're going back and saying, oh, I knew it then, I don't know it now. You know, you see, what has happened is that experience of knowing is an experience. It is not something that is required for the knowledge to be true. It is just the experience portion. Like, for example, if you go to Niagara Falls first time, you will say, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. Oh, my God, so beautiful. Right? And the next time you go not so much, next time you go thousand times, you will not say it. So that experience that happened the first time is only the experience because you did not, you were not familiar with the original thing, you didn't see it before, you saw it the first time or something like that. So you created an experience which is amazing. Oh, it's amazing, but it's not amazing. It's the normal experience of Niagara Falls. Niagara Falls is always like that, you see? So you are the one who is creating that special experience and then remaining in that memory saying that that time there was knowledge about this. Now There is no knowledge about this. But the reality is it's not knowledge, it's experience of that particular event. You know, that experience has some kind of a feeling. That feeling you recall, you will recall, like as if you go to sleep. You know, when you go to sleep right now, you will. You will forget all the problems in this situation. You'll be very peaceful for a period of time. And when you wake up again, you'll be like, oh, I was so peaceful. The experience is what you're remembering, not the actual fact that there was nobody there. Okay, so now when you go back to that experience of knowing it by yourself, that knowledge was yours. But as knowledge, as a conscious knowledge about it, as a fact, you know, some ideas and some knowledge base. But that knowledge base is not required, you know, it's only an idea because the underlying truth is always the way. Even now, like that. Right. Whether you take the drugs or not, is it not the current situation. And what is missing is only the knowledge, understanding, experience. Yeah, that's what we are trying to point out. Yes. You can find the underlying experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By going into different kinds of temporary states of consciousness. Like a drug. It's a temporary state of consciousness. In some states of consciousness, there is different types of experience based on the knowledge available there. But that knowledge is only a temporary thing because knowledge has no meaning. It's the basis of knowledge that we are after.

Yeah, I mean, see, when I do like something, I think I have done it only once, once. And what I understood was that since that I experienced that state, it is something which all had always existed within me. Mushrooms just let me access exactly sometimes. So that state is not something external for me, to be really frank, it was. If it didn't exist inside of me, I wouldn't have actually experienced it, nor would have even got like a thought of, you know, going and doing.

That's correct.

And I wouldn't have ever reached over.

That's right.

So the question now is existed.

It's just like, you know, it's like.

A hack to reach there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no hack to reach there. No, no, no, no, no. You cannot reach. That has become very clear. There is no reaching. What is the situation is as follows right now. That is the situation, but it is blocked because of your knowledge. It's like saying the earth is flat, you know, because I experience the earth as flat. I walk everywhere. I can walk all. I will show you. Come with me. I will walk and show you. I'll walk the entire earth Every single inch. And I will show you that it's flat. Yeah. And now you're saying, no, no, no, no, no. If I go to the space, then I will realize that it is round, you know, Only then can I know that it is round, you see, only if I do some action will I realize the reality of it. But no, wait, no. Action is not required. What is required is the loss of the false, Because it already is me.

Of course I. I understand that.

Yeah. It's very important to understand.

Yeah.

People should not get pointy.

Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. It's fine. But we don't talk about trips here because this is a waste of time and talking about trips because trips is a distraction. Action. It's good. You did it. It's fine. But we don't discuss it, really, because it's a. It's not a useful thing to discuss, you know, anyone can have a temporary experience. It doesn't get you anywhere. There are lots of druggies in the world who have no basis of anything, you know. So what we are discussing here. Yeah. So that is the thing. You can do recreational drugs all day long. It has no meaning. You can even become like one of those, you know, creative types who are there in all the. These movies, you know, they do. They. They're very creative. You know, it's all like. Creativity doesn't come from action. Creativity comes when action ends. Of course, when you realize that you are not able to do any action because you have no free will, then what happens is called creativity. Yeah. Hey, Sam. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. So we have a new person today, Anirudh.

Oh, yeah, I saw the participants. Hey, Anirudh.

Hi. Sam's a designer with us and he will tell you that he's not a designer.

Good to meet you.

Glad to meet you too. Yes, I was exactly gonna say that I'm not necessarily a designer. I'm not necessarily anyone.

He's a designer who is not a designer. Like all of us are, you know, people who are not people. Yep. You see, because people and designer and green and all these things that we all agree upon, that we see the same thing and we call it green. Let's call this color green. You know, let's all call this color green. Even though we may see different things in our minds, it is the convention that when we see the same thing, we call it green. Green. And the word green is created from that experience. But as such, green has no meaning. There's nothing called green. The tree doesn't say it's Green.

You know, the example of you being alone all in the world made quite sense to me because the fact that when you're alone, labeling a mango as a mango doesn't matter.

It has no meaning. Yes. It is only for someone else to communicate that you create words not for yourself, because for self, you already know it. No need to say that you're eating a mango. You're eating it already. Right. So we are discussing the actual thing and not its description. So the lucid dreaming is a description. What is the actual thing?

Thing?

You got it.

I'm thinking. Amit, I. This is. There's a lot there, lot to process and a lot of things to think about.

So yes, yes. Sam can tell you. Sam, we want to comment on your, on your view. You know, you've been here the longest.

Yeah. On lucid dreaming, this whole thing.

Yeah, yeah. I. Realization.

Okay, so I don't know what part I bumped into.

But.

And this must be a lot for you, right?

It's.

But as you realize from the, from the, from call one, I was confused. I was kind of in a denial. I was not able to give up the identity that I am. But then again, as soon as I got rid of the I and I started to observe this entire thing as just observation minus knowledge, it really started helping me realizing genuine creation creativity. So the way my mind worked was just like we said, that I am a designer and not a designer. When I was given a task and I was listening, I was thinking as a designer, I was limiting myself and I was just giving myself a finite number of options that this is my world and this is the known and I have to find a solution in the this known. I will never find an out of the box solution or a genuinely original solution like the companies like Apple does or the top graphic designers or even the top people in this world have. And the reason was the more you hunt inside the known, the only answer you are going to ever get is inside the known. So I completely, you know, with the help of Amir, it just eliminated that whole thing and I just escaped that. Then comes the genuine creativity where you are just no one. Where you are just observing all this around you as pure knowledge without inputting all the emotional responses or the effects and the causes and confusing yourself, attaching unnecessary emotions and just confusing the hell out of it. So, you know, there is this formula that Amit wrote about open tangle. The more you are introduced to this system, it will be easier for you because all these formulas at the start did not make sense. But as, as I started ruminating in it, everything is, is. I just realized that everything is very, very simple. It's not, there's no concept of difficult or simple at all actually. It's, it's very, I don't know.

Yes, so this whole notion of complexity and simplicity, you know, they are all concepts. Something is conceptually simple or conceptually complex, you see, because it depends on the level of understanding of the person. So physicist, nuclear physicist, for them everything is simple. Somebody comes and says, oh wow, you know, fission reaction and all that, they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's normal stuff. I'm working on cold fusion, you know, I'm not bothered with all these simple things. But for us, like splitting an atom is like, you know, it's like mad black art, you know. So it all depends on what you know. And what we are discussing here is the most basic and abstract knowledge of all knowledge, the knowledge of knowledge itself. What is knowledge, we ask ourselves here. And knowledge is nothing but an idea. And for that you need to have an individual or a point of consciousness that has the idea. So it belongs to a point of consciousness, this idea. So you create the whole world as a set of ideas that are belonging to nodes in one network, which is the universal consciousness. All of us are connected directly to each other based on conversation, exchange, transactions, whatever you want to do. And it's already connected on the Internet. So we use the Internet as a vector to create the actual Internet where everyone is connected directly using consciousness. So we are using consciousness and connecting everyone and using the vector transport layer as the Internet work layer, which is Internet. But it can be anything. You could have launched your own Internet. I mean, if we didn't have HTTP we would have just launched our own something new. Maybe we will still someday. Like Google has their own SPDY protocol protocol, you know, we can create a new web, you know, the AWAKE protocol, totally connected at high speed in a private network to begin with. But that's because these are clear what we are doing, you know, we're not doing anything, simply connecting everybody. Therefore lucid dreaming becomes possible, or it happens. Creativity is what you call lucid dream. You want something thing, you want it to manifest, you know, in the world so called world, in the so called dream world, you want something to appear, you know, that's what you call by manifestation. And what we are discussing is the whole bloody universe has been manifested as a dream, is it not? Where is the question of effort to manifest some small ass particle like money or you know, something. Fair enough. So awake. VC awakened Value co creation. If I want to lucid dream, I just tell everybody that it's a dream, is it not? What else is there to do to wake up?

Everything is just an input of our senses of what we call it, you.

Know, so we are, it's like a supercomputer where we have realized the DNA of it and we are running the program of that computer, which is ourselves. This is the self referential loop. We are the program. So to modify the world, you don't have to deal with the world at all, you just modify the software. Software. Which is why Lisp is so appealing. Because you can modify the software at runtime while running. It's able to change its own source code because it taps into the computation process. You see, it gives you access to the underlying compiler, gives you access to the source code itself, and gives you a macro system that can run at dynamic loop in the dynamic way, not statically linked. So this is what is called life consciousness. It has given you everything you need. The process is itself available. All you have to do is to be in control of your own program. But if you believe in the, the objects that has been created in the process of running the program, like, you know, my friends, money, companies, women, objects, you know, cars, whatever, men, right? Doesn't matter. I didn't mean to say it that way, but any, any, anything at all, then you're in illusion land. Because it's not real. What is real is the process, not the objects created by the process. Because the process is always running. Objects appear and disappear. Okay. Hello?

Yeah.

Yeah, I can hear you. T. Thoughts since you have joined also T, you know, you know, you know everyone here, right? Except, I mean, I mean, obviously I.

Was, I was on initial calls and I audited all the other calls.

So Tanik, you know, is the, the one who created the podcast, who's managing the podcast. So. Yeah. So, any thoughts, Danae?

I mean, I mean, we've been discussing this for, I mean, since the day we started talking, we've been only discussing about, you know, free will and, you.

Know, how to do.

I mean, for me, honestly, it's. It's hard to grasp. I mean, my learning curve here is really steep, so it will take me a lot more practice and, you know, I mean, I can't say conscious decision, but.

Yeah. What do you have to say to somebody who says it'll take a long time to lear. To practice?

It's well done. We have a finite sense of senses, right? We just have like listening, hearing, seeing, so if we have such a finite hardware out, and you, You. You know that sound has a speed. You know that light has a speed. So everything that is even entering by your eyes before process, before getting processed by your brain, it has a delay. So everything that you are seeing, even right now or hearing even right now, is not having, is not in the present. It's. It's something of the past. So if everything that is being created, you're not able to watch it real time, and then you are. Your brain is processing it into a finite amount of colors that we recognize and a finite. And we can only listen to a certain wavelength of sound and taste only this and that. So don't you feel that there could be much more to reality and that what we are experiencing is just our figment of imagination, that we are creating for ourselves so that our finite brains can ponder and understand?

Yeah, yeah, I do agree. We kind of simplify things, right? We kind of create some model things.

If something works to move it forward a little bit. Yeah. So to push that thought forward, what Sam said, the logical conclusion there is. Once you realize that, yes, it is true that my mind is representing this in a finite model, then whatever practice and whatever effort I make will always be a finite model.

No, I'm sorry, I don't get you.

Please come again. You said it will take you long time in practice to understand all these things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm saying all understanding will be within the finite model.

Correct.

Where is the use of it? What we are saying is the finite model is a useless thing. Stop it.

I mean, defaulting to the. No, no, no.

I mean, all I'm saying is the point being made here is not to understand something. The point being made here is understanding is the problem.

I get it, yeah.

If you say you understand it, you. You're in delusion land because it cannot be understood as a knowledge. Knowledge is the problem, you see. Knowledge is the block. So knowledge management is, in fact a joke. So for us, what we are really creating is we are transcending knowledge. See, what is the world's biggest knowledge management victory? You know, what is it that I really want, Want as a node of this, you know, open tangle or of the consciousness you can do, you can manifest. You want the dream. No, you want the lucid dreaming to happen. Everybody wants lucid dreaming to happen. Okay, how does it happen? You know, you want something, why it's not happening? Why don't you ask everybody you know, and, you know, make it happen? Is it not possible anything Is possible. They say if we work together, then resources also are not in issue. You know, the logical conclusion of all of this is that when everyone is connected and everybody works together, anything is possible instantly, is it not? If everybody was working together, where is the question of any problem? Today there are so many people who are hungry, right? Let's say that 1 billion people are hungry and to feed them, it costs us $1 a day. Feed them means not to give them, you know, some feast of from some nice restaurants and all, but to feed them, they feed them. Means you need like what you get in an ashram. You get idli sambar, you get pongal and all that, okay? So good healthy food that comes from farms locally, you make and feed people. Anyone can walk in and get food. Say a billion people need this every day. $1 billion a day. Day. $365 billion a year. Do you mean to tell me that it's not possible today? We are spending trillions of dollars on so many things. You're telling me $365 billion a year where everybody gets fed on the planet Earth, which also generates so many farmers jobs and all the other cook jobs and all these other things. Do you mean to tell me that this is not possible? It is like a. Yeah, it is a nonsensical thing. You see, it is instantly possible when people say lucid dreaming. Yes, instantly anything is possible. But you can do it now in physicality, in manifested reality. And the way to do that is to control the phenomenal universe. The phenomenal universe is controlled using consciousness. 71 million people voted for Trump because he controls their consciousness with all the things he says and does. Whether or not he follows through and all is a different thing. But in consciousness he appears to be doing so many different things and saying so many things. So 71 million people have been mesmerized enough to vote for him. 150 plus senators from the Republican side have backed his, you know, challenged in the court and all these things. So it is a like advertising. We buy so many things based on advertising because consciousness has been programmed. Which means what? We have no free will, right? Based on information, we react. Somebody says Apple is better, you believe it. If somebody had never come across Apple, they would not buy an Apple in your computer. So whatever is in your consciousness, but to not get confused, to live free, To never get attached to the objects, to know clearly that you are never an object. What you are is what you are. You are always clear, never unclear, there's never any imagination. There Even if it appears to be there, because the appearance is no longer seen as real. You can walk through an oasis in the desert without getting bothered by the water there, because you know it's not water.

Correct.

So knowing what it is that is knowledge, the real knowledge is the knowledge of knowledge that all knowledge is false. In fact, knowledge is equal to ignorance. This is the final knowledge. Knowing something is know is ignorance, is it not? And what is their requirement, you know, to do something? Action is needed. You know, knowledge is not needed. So if I want something, I want hundred million people to eat. Action is needed. No, what is the use of knowledge? Knowledge will tell me. Socialism, communism, this ism, that ism. All the. And nothing gets done. $365 billion will be needed a year to feed everyone. But nothing gets done. Because we're discussing socialism and communism and capitalism. In the meantime, everybody is hungry. But if you don't discuss it, simply act on it. Where's the question? It'll get done. No. So action. All thought can only be based on past concepts and past experiences. There is never any creativity in thought. So you can never think and be creative. So on that note. Note. We shall call it a day today. Well, thanks everybody then. Oh yes, we'll talk soon.

Cheers everybody. Have a nice week.

Bye bye.