What we learned after generating over $40m in online revenue (uncut + raw footage)

What's up bro?

What's up my bro? How are you bro?

I'm good. Introduce yourself to everyone.

Yeah, guys, Mache Lipper Runner, Inform Agency. Working with like a select few partners of course. We've been in info marketing industry for over two years now. Work with countless big names, webinar funnels, challenge funnels, low ticket funnels, you kind of name it beneath the like beneath the roof right now we kind of got like a decent agency portfolio scaling operations this year, looking at like a big Q4. But that's kind of our specialty, my man. Like mainly info marketing industry. Just getting up man.

I think that was a very humble way to introduce yourself, bro.

We can take it up a level with like revenue qualifiers and shit but you know, keep it humble man.

Okay, so I'll, I'll introduce you. This guy and his team are masterminds behind the info marketing space. And you coming here to la, obviously you know we're doing some work together. But dude, you guys have done a lot of stuff and you guys have been around for a few years now. You guys have a fucking massive client portfolio. You guys are very intelligent about what you do. I think personally you guys are the best in the space and continually getting even better. So we're going to talk about a few things here. Mainly involved with info products and information marketing because this is kind of like the new hot thing and a lot of people are trying to do this whole growth operating thing. This dude. You guys have what done for clients? How many figures now is it counting?

30, 40 million counting. We've helped clients hit 1 million dollar marks. $144,000 in like the first month, took back ends from 0 to 52k mark, done 300k webinars in like on like a random Thursday. You kind of name it.

So was there a million dollar day there at 1 point?

Million dollar day. That's on the to do list. They'll come real soon.

Yes, very close.

Very close. It may actually come very soon actually.

I think so. I would hope so. So for those who are like getting started in info marketing or just marketing in general, I would say that doing marketing for info products or that whole growth operator thing is probably the hardest thing to do when it comes to just running a marketing agency. This is not a beginner business model. I've personally made well over seven figures with my own information marketing products. And that was a big part of how I made a lot of money a few years ago. And it is not for the faint of heart. It is not for beginners, it is not as simple as setting up a school community and taking 50% because no one in their right mind would ever do that. It requires so many different skill sets and skill stacks. It requires not only intelligence, but execution and speed to market and time in market and working with the right clients and everything like that. Because a lot of people right now, they're just going into this entire business model and they're falling flat on their face. They're not making any money and they're getting burned out in terms of agency work and they're getting burned out in terms of being able to make money because they just simply lack the knowledge and they lack the skill set. So let's talk about how you got started.

It's been an insane journey, man. Of course, started the traditional agency route. Start off doing e commerce agency freelancing, retainer pops, etc.

What year was this?

This was actually in around 2022 time. 2022, February. Time is when we took the full leap inside the informarketing industry. Now keep in mind, before that we had no idea what direct response was. Copywriting, webinar funnels, challenges, you kind of name it. I was so used to kind of like e commerce copy NBC like so in 2022, that's when we kind of take the leap. Before signing our big clients, we work with this like, do you know these shitty clients, these like coaches, the dating ones, the fitness ones, the results weren't good. Like straight revenue got them, no results. And then kind of like, I think it was like kind of God's plan, like in a way that we signed our big first e commerce client, not our big first info client. And then since then, he kind of like activated the ripple effect because when we signed him, we got more absorbed. Webinar funnels, the direct response challenges, real inform marketing. And then since that got me the same results, took his backend from like 0 to 50k in the first month. Then it got to a stage that we were doing like $250,000 a month strictly for email marketing, which is pretty insane considering that's like them results are absurd. So since we got that result for that client, 250k a month, he referred us to that one client, that client referred us to another, that client referred us to another. Then like simultaneously, while this was happening, of course we were building up like insane name association in the industry. Then it kind of got to a stage organically. People are hearing us names now, of course. The rest is history, man. We're just prioritizing client results at all times and now working with like insanely big clients right now.

Yeah, you guys were under the radar for a very long time. You guys were like, I remember, I remember hearing about what you guys had going on back in early 2023.

2023. Crazy.

Yeah. When I was in Dubai and I heard about what you guys were doing and I was like, holy shit, that's insane. And guys like, if you're, if you're listening to this, you're watching this and you have no clue what Mattie just said. In terms of webinar funnels and all of that stuff, you're probably not qualified to work in info marketing.

No, I agree.

So like it's a lot, it's a lot more than just hey, we're going to set up, write some emails for you and things like that.

And I think that's what really differentiates people. Like people assume that this informeting thing, this growth operating thing, it's easier set up like a simple school community where without understanding positioning, differentiation, copy, direct response funnels, automations, tech. But the guys who make real bank with info marketing, those are the guys that understand the real principles that the likes of like Tony Robbins applies, Grant Coden, Grant Cardone applies, et cetera. Like them guys are really implementing that high leverage shit and that's how you really succeed in this place long term. Because as I mentioned, in this industry it's all about skill accumulation and client results. It's not like a good serve like signing new clients with revenue shares, setting up rubbish school communities now and again or things of that realm. Right. Is it about longevity in this industry? And that's like one principle that we're embracing religiously. Our agency just constantly just like sharpening that direct response sword like every single day, man.

Yeah, it's, it's funny because like I, back earlier a while ago now I was actually. So I had pivoted the agency from being like email marketing for E commerce and then I stopped doing it for a while and then I went into like, just straight consulting and I was consulting for a few guys in the info marketing space. Guys with coaching programs and my specialty obviously when I used to run Cash Flow Syndicate, I was the number two MRR community at the time, teaching sales, copywriting and marketing behind literally the biggest fucking thing that we've ever seen. And so this is like back in late 2021, 2022, and we'd scaled up to $120,000 a month in profit recurring and it was huge. You were Actually, even in that, back.

In 2021, I remember that throwback, bro. Like during like e commerce days, bro.

Yeah, but you churned quick, so it's okay, bro.

Quick.

You paid for like a McDonald's meal or something. So, you know, so my specialty with information marketing was very like, I didn't know marketing before I started like info marketing before I started doing it myself. And so to build a company at 24, 25 years old, with no staff, barely any fulfillment, high cash flow, you kind of feel like you're God, right? And even if you're making 50, 60,000amonth, you feel like you're on top of the world. Cause it's like for me, from coming from a sales background, it was 10k, 15k maybe a month, and then some months were lower, right? But it averaged out around 10, 12k a month. Coming from that background, it's like you have this fucking business where you don't even barely need to get on the phone, it's all traffic, offer subscription, and then you have the LTV of the customer. So my whole experience with info marketing was building out and scaling the systems and automations and the offer strategies to create a recurring community that therefore you could ascend customers through. Now I, in my young age and my naivety in business, I was like 24, 25 and I have this high cash flow business. Like I decided to just go buy an Aston Martin and travel the world instead of like, okay, how can we go and build this business into this massive fucking empire? And like we, you know, off camera, like a few. Last week when we were all hanging out, we joked about how many tens of millions of dollars are left on the table with that but silly bro. And so, you know, it's funny because now I look back and I'm like, fuck, if I knew what I know now. Or if I had your skill set that you've developed with like on the other side of things, which is cold traffic funnels and everything like that, it's like, fuck, I would have cooked because my specialty was building, scaling and growing MRR communities, which is now called this growth operator model, where I think I'm the only person qualified to teach how to do MRR stuff, especially on social media. And so I mean there's now it's like 120k a month. Two years ago is now like the equivalent of a million a month.

Agreed.

Yeah. And a lot of people are now able to whip up communities, drive traffic. Now that this is like this low ticket kind of paid thing is happening. And so there's been a lot of guys who have just been able to kind of snap their fingers and do 0 to 150k a month. Right. Alex Sedlak, my friend Chris Rios is, you know, he's actually was a. I jumped on a few calls with him for consulting. He came to me for consulting and he's doing I think $200,000 a month right now. And he's like 21 years old teaching like reselling. And so there's been a lot of guys who have come to me and I've worked with a lot of people on the info side of just like infrastructure and consulting. Not actually done for you Delivery. We did try that for a bit, but like trying to go from zero to one with clients is just a massive headache. And so the delivery is a massive headache as well. But so we were able to like on my side go take clients from like 100 to like 350k from 150, 200k with just a few small consulting changes. Nowadays that's kind of like if someone wants to come for me, come to me for that. And like they're like, oh, I have this offer, I have this thing, how do I grow that? Like, I still work with a few people on the side, but what you guys do is completely done for you. Holistic process. So that's where it differentiates, of course.

Yeah.

And so the entire what's crazy is like combining that skill set with what, you know, I think is like invaluable now and we're cook some crazy stuff up.

Crazy shit, but crazy.

Like this whole model of that's been perpetuated into the marketplace of just do this one thing and you'll make 30k a month. It's just, it's, it's bullshit because of the skill accumulation and the skill stack that you.

Sure, yeah. I mean like the guys of course like promoting this industry, I mean like it's in my opinion still by far the best business model to start. Of course, like you can make insane bank. But like what I'm against is like the mentality that people have with entering the industry. People think it's as easy as setting up, I don't know, like this funnel and that one, driving traffic and making conversions from the get go. Now when you kind of prioritize that money from the get go is of course your minute. You're like maximizing the churn because you're not going to get your client's results. You're going to be in like the acquisition hamster will constantly seeking like new revenue share deals with new creators, sending countless DMs where as I mentioned earlier on in this video as well, the game's all about longevity. Meaning like how long can you keep one client? Like and then it's all about the longevity. Like even for like some of our clients. We've been working with clients for one to two years. Why of course we're prioritizing skill accumulation but we're doing so much shit for them as possible. So they're kind of like in a.

Good way depending on really, really, really sticky. Really sticky. It's interesting because like I feel like a lot of people now just they, it's, it's in terms of the business model as far as agency business models go. It's one of those things where the barrier to entry is so goddamn high that if you're really good and you're the best of the best, kind of like Carl, right? Carl Bisha CRO. Like Carl's doing $5 million a year, right. And so he's the best in the business. If you are the best in the business, like it pays to be a winner. Like there's always room at the top for a winner. But if you're like the skill gap between you and just taking someone off the street or somebody who's watching YouTube videos is just is years in process.

It's years in process.

Years. So how long did it take you? So it took you how long six months to go from doing e comm stuff and like all the kind of NPC copy stuff to high, you know, not gonna use the word aggressive here but converting direct response.

I like that word. Yeah. So As I mentioned, February 2022 we started our first informarketing agency. Within a first year we scaled our agency to like over a seven to a six figure a month run rate which was pretty impressive. So we went to of course like a huge marketing event in around October. November sound like a lot more clients through there. But it was like a pretty streamlined process because of course I was diversified in the E commerce industry so I kind of understood copyrighting fundamentals. But then when we kind of absorbed ourselves in the info market industry, what we noticed, and this is like a big difference between E commerce and info. Info is like a lot more personal and kind of like steward type.

Yeah.

You know like when I was writing for E Commerce, like simple feature image, quick headline navigation bar. Simple. Right. With info there's a lot more moving parts that go into it. Normal storytelling differentiation. And now especially with this huge surge of people wanting to tap to the market. Your prospects are naturally becoming more skeptical to the office that they're seeing. And then there's no clear differentiation, no clear sales argument, no clear reason why they should buy your guru's offer rather than the other guru's offer. You're not going to last in the marketplace. And then once again, it comes down to our point about just endless skill accumulation. That's how you really stand out.

So how do you feel about the clients? Because when we were spinning up the information marketing consulting offer, we would get clients on the phone and I would pull up like, okay, here's this launch that I did for myself. Here's this launch, here's this, here's this, this, this, this. And like, you'll show them millions of dollars and be like, this is why I'm the best, right? This is why you should move forward with me. And they're like, yeah, well, I got pitched and this other guy wants like 5% less. Or I got pitched and it's like not only even on the differentiation from the content creator side or the guru's side or whatever it may be, but it's like, now there's. On the client side. From a sales process perspective, there's so many issues because now you have all of this saturation where they're just getting hit up with the same offer. And you have to work even harder to now differentiate yourself versus all the other shit munchers.

Of course, yeah, the market's becoming more and more overly sophisticated. And your prospects, if you send them, like, typical things that of course they're used to, there's no differentiation, they're not going to respond to you. That's like, what we're doing at our agency now was we got a clear conversion mechanism that instantly differentiates us. That's one thing that differentiates us. But then the second thing is, of course, like our name association in the industry, our landing page is very simple VSL conversion mechanism, CTA that we've got like a bunch of proof. But the proof is like the main needle mover in this process. If, like a client sees that you work with like another client that they admire, you've instantly built up rapport, you know, that's why, like, when we were doing acquisition, a simple name drop with like a big client name, it instantly differentiated us 100%. So this. So, like, we noticed, especially in this info marketing industry, the space is all about network and name association. Like, with like, exposure, putting your name out there, putting out your content Authority. That's what really allows you to stand out, you know?

Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know what's funny is like when I saw some of the guys that you should like, ask me for advice. Because when I was like, like back in the day, it was like a lot of the big guys have just fucking turbo scaled now. And I'm like. And looking at that, I'm like, oh shit. Like they were working with your ass. And I'm like, damn. I'm like, holy shit. I was like, I was busy traveling the world and doing X, Y and Z and like, like. And there's other people who have just achieved wild amounts of success in such a short time frame with the process of actually having a partner or having somebody who's really fucking good at what they do.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, you have to like, for you guys, like, I don't even know who I would say is the competition because most of the other competition in the marketplace for like that exists, like, is they run their own offers. Like, they simply just run their own offers. And the people who don't are moving into running their own offers. And then you have everyone else who just like, is trying to do this, who can't hack, who just simply isn't good enough. Like they're not good enough.

With us, it's still our core vehicle going forward. I mean, I have got like a offer on the side, but me becoming a full time coach anytime soon is something that I'm not considering. The reason why is of course when we better client results, when we generate more like strategies for clients, that just feeds into our complementary external offer that's going to of course repel student successes there. So like for us is of course the core vehicle with the agency. We started this new agency 60 days ago, already got insane momentum and, and I think next year me and my partner have like just insane just like strategies in general just to scale the shit out of this.

Your partner's a G, by the way. Real G came. He's a G. You know, I actually love that you said that because that was my main thing going into when I started even doing marketing or looking at it as a business model was to simply, I was like, okay, like, I love clothes, right? Like, I'm a, like, I love fashion. And I was like, okay, one day I want to start a fashion brand and I want to start selling clothes. Like, you know, passion project kind of thing. But if I learn how to work, because I was so used to working with businesses on the sales side, on the front End side, if I learn how to do like let's say the marketing and the branding and the delivery and I work with these companies and I get my experience work getting paid to work with these companies and making the money and everything else well, then I can take all that experience. So when I want to go do my own thing, I have all of this reference experience to now move forward so that I know what I'm going to do when I set everything up is foolproof, validated and that it works for sure.

For sure. Yeah. Especially with like the info brands. It's kind of like a three step process allocate. Of course you've got the front end, the monetization, big one, the back end and then the sales team. If you dial in Brom, tweak it with a slurring.

No, you're good, bro. I'm laughing because it's like you just, you're like going off top like that and like dude, to the average listener.

Especially maybe bro, like, am I speaking too sophisticated?

No, no. To the average listener they're going to be like, they're going to be head fucked and it's absolutely great. Keep going.

I think I'm speaking too.

So this. No, no, keep going.

Okay, sure.

Keep going. Keep it going, bro. You're giving them, you're giving them a lot of game.

Yeah. So with info marketing, of course with like every single info brand, they're like three buckets that you tap into. Of course you've got your front end, your monetization because then you've got your sales team. If all three kind of components are taken care of, that's like a very successful brand. Like for example, like now with the clients that we're working with, we ensure that all three systems are dialed. Like even we've got like complementary skill providers with the sales team and eyeballs. And the only thing that we take care of is the monetization vehicle. And when us three combine our specialities, that info offer is scaling to the moon. And we're doing this with info brands right now that we're scaling them to like a million dollars a month just because all three components within that info brand of course taken care of seamlessly.

How do you feel like reverse engineering has played a role in your process of how you guys do business?

Great question, bro. With reverse engineering, when we started things like the agency, of course we were just seeing what all these other big guys were doing and kind of not like swiping the thing but kind of getting inspiration from their methodologies and Applying that to our clients accounts and kind of like subconsciously thinking how can we make this shit better to better even the client results. Right. So we of course sat through countless webinars challenges. Like on my Gmail I've probably got like a swipe of like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Gmails, you know, and every day I read out Gmails and then like I kind of see what they're doing, try to think of how to make it better. That's helped us like increase client results crazily. And that's like the, still the exact same approach that we do to this day.

So what's your process for? Because I talk about this a lot, right. I talk about when you look for competitive advantages, you know, particularly on the, in the agency space, you have to take a look at not only the individual but also the market. And then the zeitgeist in the market, the meta. So you have the meta, you have the sub meta and then you have the zeitgeist. The zeitgeist is the five years, the two years, five years, 10 year cycle and then you have the meta. So what are the metas? Right. Right now it's this information marketing growth, operating thing. It's also a little bit of TikTok shop. So you have the differentiation there between the people who want to start their own agencies and then people who just want to make money with commission. You know, the TikTok affiliate thing. And so when I look at competitive advantages, I say that, okay, you have to look at what the individual is doing and then look at what the competitors are doing. So talk about the process of how you break that down, right? Because I have my way of doing it. But I think they would like to hear from you how you do it. So what when you look for the market gaps and the opportunities. That's a very complex question, bro. It is a complex question.

Yeah.

So when you look at the market gaps and opportunities, how do you look.

At it, the marketing gaps and opportunities?

Like what's your process? You just say, okay, well this benefit here, this is like how do you.

Pick it apart as like a winning and established offer in the marketplace?

Yeah. So how do you make, how do you look at other people's shit and make it better now?

Great question, bro. Of course. Okay, that now like that makes like a thing like a lot more sense. As I said, we have got like an effective swipe. Wait, give a minute. That's a. Bro, that's a really good question. What's the thing way, what's the answer.

With an offer, you're selling the outcomes. So the biggest differentiator is the mechanism. So on any offer, you're selling the outcome and then the way to differentiate it is to have better mechanism.

That's very. Bro, that's a great answer. Yeah, bro. Like you might have to hop in the podcast, bro.

You can cut that and we add to that.

All right, fire now we don't cut anything nice.

As my partner said. Of course, right. Every offer in the marketplace has a dream outcome. That dream outcome can of course be like health, wealth, relationship tied. The relationship can be find the love of your life with wealth, make more money with, of course, health. You've got like a better body, right? And every single, like we can look at the fitness industry as a whole, right? Every single fitness coach in the marketplace, they're all appealing to the same dream outcome of like losing. Like, think like the belly flap, getting in the best shape of your life. But a guy's really differentiate in a marketplace. Like Conor o', Gallagher, for example, he's kind of got like an insane unique mechanism around his teachings that kind of puts him in a market of one that also allows him to charge like premium prices with what he's servicing. Just because his messaging and the mechanism. And that's something that we're doing, of course, for clients right now. We're not really only leaning towards the biz op itself, like for example, Amazon, fba. We're looking for unique teach points around Bizop and what makes his teachings superior to the other gurus teachings.

Grego Gallagher made more money, I think, selling how to. How to look like a movie star than how to look ripped with intermittent fasting.

Like a Hollywood. Yeah, but like that's his entire life.

He changed it to movie star body or like movie star. How to look like a movie star. Hollywood movie star. But before I remember like back in. This is like what, 2013 or 2014, it was from. It was like intermittent fasting was the mechanism. And now the mechanism is Hollywood.

Yeah. And his VSL is insane, bro. Like, I think he starts off with like, like, of course, like the entire Hollywood angle. And that paints it so well because everyone at the end of the day, they want to look like this flipping like Zac Efron type, you know, just looking like in the best physique of their life. So I would counter that though, with.

What is the Hollywood body. But the mechanism is you can train two to three days a week. You can do all these things and train differently.

That's why.

Why These Hollywood stars are able to get in shape that quickly while doing, while eating what they like while doing these things. So it's the mechanism that delivers that outcome that's given.

But isn't his mechanism like no, like no, no, like the entire Hollywood way of training.

That's what I'm saying. So I'm saying like the outcome is the dream body and then the mechanism is what delivers that outcome. And you don't even have to make a claim because the mechanism is so different that it delivers that outcome. Just like they just piece. They just put the pieces together in their own hand.

That's good, bro.

Comedy podcast. Now. Killer, man.

Yeah, let me think here. What should we touch on growth operating.

Growth info marketing agency. Let's talk about some, I don't know, like some webinar funnel shit, man.

Webinar funnels, that would be. Yeah, that would be your domain. I can talk about MRR all day.

Yeah, let's maybe like sprinkling some like webinar funnels.

What's the difference between scaling webinar organic or cold traffic webinar funnel versus scaling an MRR offer?

Great question, man. They're both of course conversion economic tied I believe especially with the web.

Explain what that is. Conversion economics.

Conversion economics is like essentially just like all KPI base for example, without the webinar funnel is like a economic game. Meaning the more people you bring to the opt in page, the more people you can get in the live room. The more people you present to the pitch, the more money you'll make. They're like essentially with conversion economics if a drop off happens at one stage of the funnel, you can easily pinpoint that change and of course make changes from the get go. For example, with the webinar funnel, if you notice that your live room attendees are plummeting, that's like a key KPI that's plummeting mean that you need to of course improve that KPI with more SMS, more emails, more RVMs, better framing, better thank you pages, getting them like a Facebook group, WhatsApp group, whatever the mechanism is. But that's all really conversion economics, you know?

Yeah, yeah, I think for mrr. So okay, so based that like. So with the. See that's literally a topic that I talk about in a YouTube video, right? How do you look at the KPIs of the business and then pinpoint exactly what you need to change and improve?

Yeah.

So like people don't understand how insanely mathematically basic fucking math driven business actually is. Like you have to look at the numbers. The numbers do not lie. If there is something that is not working, the numbers will tell you. So that's why you track the numbers. It's not as simple as like hey, here's this thing for $100 a month.

Yeah.

Here's this, here's this offer. I have this offer. Will you buy it? Well, are you going to buy it? Doesn't work like that.

Yeah, it's all like front end to back end focus. Like even now for our clients, something that we do more religiously, but we're tracking from front end to back end KPIs. Yeah, like from the front end. That includes of course the CPOs, the AD metrics, the funnel metrics themselves with the opt in rate wherever the conversion processes. And then of course on the sales side, the close rates, the shop rates, the thing like whatever the mechanism is, then we have like industry benchmarks to aim for. And, and if we notice one key KPI plummeting, of course we instantly improve that KPI to ensure that the entire business is streamlined from front end to backend.

Yeah, yeah. See on the MRR side it's more about maintaining churn.

Agreed.

Yeah. So Churn. So retention mechanisms.

Right.

In the same way. So on the flip side is if you have an offer that's converting well on the front end and it's some sort of mrr, whether it's a software, whether it is community based or something like that, then there's some reason as to why they're churning, which is why customer research is so important, especially like exit surveys and stuff. But the entire goal of that is to just figure out like how. Because once you get to a certain level of scale, like a 2% turn rate is like $10,000. And so like if you can even adjust that by like a little metric, it just make. It makes shitloads of money. And so like with MRR stuff is like if you. I can't even give that sauce away. I'm not even saying that for free.

But bro, what have you done to minimize churn like in the past even with like your programs, of course you mentioned like the exit.

Exit. Okay, so minimization of CHURN was like, see, I don't know if I can give that away for free, bro. Anyway, fuck it. Most, most people are not gonna even be able to implement it. Cuz they're just, they'll never even get to a point where it actually matters. Because if you have like 30 customers in a fucking group, like 10%, churn is like three people, it doesn't matter, right? So the thing is, is like you have to not only paste content correctly, but you can drip content, right? And so you can upsell the full access and then you can also drip content out if you, let's say you have like when Cash Flow Syndicate was around, I think there were 70, 80 videos in the course right now the mistake I made on the front end was giving all of that away for free. And then what I did was I started to drip the content out to increase the amount of customer spend. So if you have. So we had three different pricing options. We had weekly, monthly, yearly, right? So weekly would be. So this is back before like even like school and like WAP or like a thing. So I had to do it all with Zapier. So I invented like these little systems on Zapier. Like I jury rigged it up where there were like three different things, three different programs with different drip cycles. So depending on the level of subscription that the customer took, we put them through a different drip cycle. So whether it was a weekly drip, whether it was a monthly drip or a yearly drip, yearly you just got access to the full thing. Monthly you got access to the different modules by month. And then they were paced out differently. But weekly they were paced out differently. But now the thing is, is when you have customers like that, the headache there was if a customer's on weekly and wants to upgrade for full access, there was no one click upsell to give them full access, right? You had to like really jewelry rig it up or get the customer on the phone or sell them in the DMs, manually unenroll them, enroll them in the full thing. Now the tech is so much easier. Like the tech is so much easier. And so in terms of minimizing churn, so you have to have something for them to look forward to. If they are so then. But you run into a problem here. The problem is, is if the product is too good. Like one of my friends is dating coaching thing. His product is so good that guys are getting girlfriends and they're leaving the coaching. So he needs an ascension. So like I was on the phone with him telling me, you need an ascension model. Okay, they're getting a girlfriend. Talk about how they can keep their girlfriend longevity. Ot so. Exactly, exactly, right? So like, so you have to have different things in the business to make. Like this is where I came up with the, the waterfall approach, the offer ecosystem, right? Where if you have this waterfall in the business, let's say Cash Flow Syndicate, what it was for example, where there was this big waterfall that's making fucking six figures a month in cash flow. Okay, well what, are there other courses internally to upsell? Are there mental, like, what are their things? What is there that are going to make up the streams of the business? How do we increase the complexity of the organization so that there is different shit that we can sell to people at different price points? And now people can do this with all types of different offers. And this is like real sauce. This is how you build a sustainable business. You need multiple different offers for multiple different things.

Absolutely.

But like you, like, if you're running some sort of MRR subscription community thing, the tech makes it fucking brain dead easy. And when I implemented that stuff, I tripled the business in 30 days. Especially now I 300% increase in the business in 30 days. It went from like 30k to 90k and 30. It's crazy. And so like, and that's with no upsells, right? I know, bro.

No ascension strategy, man.

No ascension strategy.

But bro, like, I'm intrigued as well with like the weekly, monthly and yearly. How did you approach each customer? Like, how would they kind of nurture differently? Like, no, like automation.

I was really stupid. I didn't. It was the same thing like, bro, like the business was doing like 30,000. When it was, it was doing like $30,000 a month. No welcome sequence, no nothing. No churn sequence, no welcome sequence, no nothing. And this is me coming from an email marketing background. It was just like, bro, like before I made all these changes, like I took a month to make all these changes and the original thing was just course videos in a discord like Google Drive links with your experience.

Now, let's say, for example, you had the weekly, the monthly and the yearly. How would each customer be approached differently?

Ooh, that's a good question. Hmm. So I would focus on, so I would actually focus on making different content for each customer profile. So the messaging changes due to the level of spend. If someone is spending less, then they need to be indoctrinated or nurtured more. If they're spending a lot, then it's like, okay, great, thanks for being a customer. Like, you're the man. Here's everything. Here you go. Silver platter. Monthly is like, okay, they're not, they're still not sure. There's a level of uncertainty that comes with customers who can't spend money right now. It's either a serious financial issue where they have no access to capital, or they just don't think it's going to work, or they just want to try it out. And a lot of people who are going from zero to one, they're not sure. They don't know if you're the guy. They're just here to test it out. And it's a great kind of tripwire, like, slo kind of thing if you eventually do upsells and things like that. But you need to change the messaging, right? And so each of the different customer profiles that purchase weekly, monthly, and yearly, I would have dove into the research more because I have years and years and years of customer data, right? But I would have dove into the research more and figured out, okay, what are these people's stories that are spending $20 versus the people who are spending $50 now? There's, I think I saw a clip of Hormozi talking about, like, brackets, right, of level of spend, right? So when you move the spend into, let's say, 55 or 59 or 69 versus 89, 97, 1, 9 7, like 197 is a different bracket than 97, right? $9 to $29 is a different spend bracket than 39 to 59. Right? So figuring out, okay, what are the psychological. What's the psychological. The psychology behind the customer. What are the psychographics behind the customer? This is like sophisticated level shit.

This is super sophisticated, bro. These guys are not ready for this, man.

What are the. What are the psychographics behind the customer? What are their stories? What makes them tick? And then how can we the level of marketing and improve on the messaging in order to make that work even more, right? So if you realize that customers at this level of spend are in this. In this, you know, whatever psychographic profile, this level spend, these are the psych graph, this level spend, okay? What are the different archetypes, then? You have to improve the messaging and create the messaging based on the different customer profiles and archives. Then you also, on the flip side, on the back end, figure out, okay, well, what's the LTV for each level of customer? Now, back when I was still on stripe, I had that data. Now we don't have that data anymore, but that's a whole different thing. So stripe used to be able to see different cohorts and the level of churn based on the level of cohort. Of course, the weekly customers are gonna churn more. So here's the thing is, if you have those three levels of pricing models, what ends up happening is your churn rate actually shoots through the roof because it's aggregated based on a monthly basis versus if you have customers that are weekly. Of course the churn rate's going to be higher because you have people spending 15, $20 who are churning. So you have to figure out, okay, what is my actual churn rate versus what it says on the screen? And then why are people churning? And then the psychographics behind every single different level of spend behind the customer churn.

This is advanced shit, bro. They're not ready for this, bro. No, bro, this is advanced shit.

By the way, guys, I think we put this in, like, we put the back end of this in info in the info product, bro.

This is too advanced for this, brother. Was mentioned in psychographics.

Oh, bro. Like, like, like, here's the like, dude, like, when I saw, like, what was it? Cambridge Analytica. You remember Cambridge Analytica, Facebook, when fate. When Zuckerberg got sued by the government, the U.S. government, for, like, selling the data.

When was this?

This is like. You remember this, right? Cambridge Analytics. So, okay, so it was a UK company.

When he said, like, we ran ad Senator. Is that when it was.

Yeah, yeah. So that the guy. They were in. They were in Cambridge and he. So they used to use psychographics to flip governments. So they would, like, say, oh, voting isn't cool. And then the. The people they wanted to stand, the people that hired them, who wanted to stay in power, they would, like, run psyops. And so if you go deep enough, like, oh, no, I'm not gonna talk about that on camera. But if you go deep enough, you realize how far. It's like Alice in Wonderland. You realize how deep the rabbit hole actually goes.

100%. Yeah.

And so if people are able to flip governments with this type of information and with data, with literally the metrics that I'm talking about right now and that we're talking about, then you can probably use it to make some money. So all of the growth operators out there who don't know what psychographics are, look it up.

Or positioning or differentiation or anything like that.

I also have a course that teaches it. I actually do have a course teaches it. But so it's like, this is like advanced marketing. So then you extrapolate this right, to webinar funnels and everything and all of the different conversion mechanisms. Okay, well, if you see now the thing is, with a new type of offer, a new type of funnel or a new. What's the word? Cohort or cold traffic. A new market of cold traffic, right? Or segment, you have to figure out, okay, so what are you have to then go back into the research phase. Like when I would tell like, like consultant clients, like, okay, like, I know you want to launch an info product and you want to make money, but it might take take 6 to 12 months to do research on this and really validate this. They'd be like, what do you mean?

Just straight in front of cold traffic.

Like, it's like, people think that it's so simple to like, oh, let's launch an offer. Like, you have to like, okay, there's a way to launch an offer that actually gets people results. The reason why customers are churning really high, like, most of these people's, like, offers have like 70% churn. The reason why people are turning because no one's getting any results or they don't feel like it's worth it. It goes back to the three sales objections. They don't have the money, they don't think it's worth it, or they don't think you're the person to help them do it. Most of the time, they just don't think it's worth it. Because your group, your little community is the first thing that people will cut. It's the first subscription that people will cut if they're not getting value. And you can now, I made the mistake as well of charging too little bro. I would spit like advanced level shit like this for like 55 bucks a month, bro. It's crazy.

Should be at least 500, even more than rack a month.

And so when you look at it, you have to figure out, okay, well, what are the psychographics behind every single different market segment and every single customer base. Now this gets super complex now. Big pharmacy companies and governments and political parties, this is all they're doing every day. Influence all they're doing every day. So when you like understanding psychology from a marketing perspective, like marketing is psychology and branding, sales is completely different from marketing. Advertising is and traffic and paid traffic specifically. And organic traffic is about data and conversion mechanisms and conversion metrics and KPIs. Everything starts with the research phase. Everything starts with psychology and psychographics. And everything starts with understanding who you are talking to.

And it's so simple and it's what so many people neglect. Of course, stuck in a content acquisition hamster wheel, wanted to sign clients. We sign a client launch like a community or something like some shit funnel or within like record time. And then they don't know anything about a customer. The psychographics, the dreams, the frustrations, the pains that they truly have. And that's going to limit your creativity with the position on the front end. You're not going to be able to effectively attract people through the door for the community. And worse than all, when they're actually inside this product that you built. Of course you're minimizing, you're maximizing the churn because you haven't prioritized the research and actual product fulfillment to actually dial in the course components and how you hold people and accountable from where they are to where they want to be. So it's far more complex than of course signing one of these guys and setting up like an offer in record time. You really need to prioritize these small things that we talk, that we're talking about right now. From conversion economics, psychographics to the research, to the market research, to differentiation to positioning. I could go on and on with like other components. But yeah, it's a lot more complex than people truly think.

Like, I think what's really, really cool about like me really going hard back into the info space very soon here is I have years and years, I have years of customer research, years of customer data, and like a new guy coming into the scene who's like trying to sell mentorships or like trying to sell their course. Like, bro, like, I've taken kids from delivering pizzas to 100k a month working with billion dollar companies. I've taken 18 year olds with like just the sales portion of my stuff to 100k a month at fucking 19 a year later just with like the shit that I've taught them in sales. Like, there's people watching my YouTube stuff who are like, yo, I just closed three deals this week with this fucking thing that you gave away for free. And it's like, bro, this is like just a little bit of what I know, but I'm going back into this just full force with like, okay, I've had over 8,000 customers in the past three years, which is more than most people will ever get in a lifetime. I have how many? I got like over a thousand testimonials of just like smma, like agencies, Just like endless scroll. Yeah, endless scroll, bro. Because there's no such thing as too much social proof. So it's interesting because it's like the competition gap. Like my competitive advantage is like, I'm just simply like. And this sounds egotistical as fuck, but like just being simply smarter and more intelligent than the people in the marketplace is like, you know, there's one, it's one thing to raw dog traffic to like some shit funnel with a shit offer. But it's another thing to come in like a sniper and just tactically know exactly what you're doing. The only issue is, is that when you're the business owner or you're the creator of your thing, you get so involved in it that you can't watch your own back. And this is why it's important to have other people around you and work with other people and mentors and people like consultancies and things like that. Because if you don't have that, you are going to be so in it, you're not gonna know what is going on. There's been times in my business, you guys probably too, where you're just like, fuck, what do we do here? And you're like, shit, I don't know what to do. And then you gotta take a step back or you like hit someone up and you're like, yo, what do I do here? And they're like. And you're like, fuck. This is like discovering fire all over again. And it's like, oh, shit. I didn't think about that. Because you always need different perspectives and you always need somebody to help you stay not only accountable, but make sure you're on the right track going to where you want to go, which I think is super important.

And I think sometimes we're kind of like numb to our own ways in like a little bit. Like, I even remember when we started agency, we of course done a fulfillment and we kind of like a bit like egotistical, as you said, about our work of fulfillment. But then we get like expert eyes on that piece of copy, that piece of marketing. We noticed that how making that one small change can increase conversions by X. And all it took was like an external, like eyeballs on the page that you're writing. This is why, of course, when we started agency as well, we always, always, always, of course, seek like external experts and like specialized experts as well. Like, we deliberately chose experts and mentors that specialize in the industry. Then when they came in to of course give us the game, we were just like one nugget away from success. Like, we invested like X amount, but that one mentor, like in terms of LTV speaking, made us like six figures in return, you know, just by seeking that one specialized mentor.

I literally did a video on that. I paid my boy who's one of the best marketers in the world. You know who it is? I told you, like, that I paid him like 10 grand back in 2023 and.

One nugget.

It was like so simple. But I was like fuck. And it changed the way that I did. Like I didn't even really know. Like I made all this money and I had this fucking million dollar business and I'm like wait, what? And it changed the way that I thought about everything forever. It changed the way I thought about business forever. And I made like half a million dollars in like three months after I like actually I sat there, I sat on the information for a few months and then when I put it into action, I made half a million dollars in three months. I was like, holy shit. And even like the same psychographic thing, like if you're in smma, right, maybe you're not running info marketing, maybe you're not as sophisticated yet or you're still tuned.

Inshaallah.

Soon, inshallah. But maybe you're not there yet or you're just doing advertising or email marketing for E commerce or SMMA or home services or something. You're doing this thing like the psychographics of your customer. Business is people. Business is talking to other people and figuring out how you can get paid in order for your time, labor and service and the results that you get. So if you're sitting there and you're like, oh well, I don't know how to sell to this customer. Well, it's like you don't understand the customer enough. Like I have something that I teach in one of the programs. It's like sales is to seek understanding first. All of it is to just seek understanding. Research phase. You have to have research, you have to understand what it is that you're getting into. If you don't do that, you're gonna be shooting in blind. You have to like, what I value my corporate sales experience so much for was I got to understand small business owners. I got to understand not only their, who they are, how they feel, how they think and across different industries, right? Like every industry you could ever think of. And then also you understand the KPIs and the data and the metrics and the numbers behind that business and you're like oh shit. Well this guy on paper is making 100k a month, but he's got like 5k a month in cash flow. Like, and you'll work with people like that. And some, you know, all these, all these guys. Everyone on the Internet makes 200k a month. You'll see like everyone on the Internet, 100k a month, 200k a month. But it's like, okay, well when you look at their cash flow, you look at their numbers. It's like, okay, well, this guy's only doing. He's doing 50k a month, top line. And then he's got. He's paying some growth operator 30%. He's got sales team, employees, agency, he's got taxes, he's got this. And then his, like, cash flow. Like most gurus are making like 10k a month selling mentorship.

And then the claims is, here's how I make 100k a month.

Exactly.

Buys all revenue.

Or they make 100k one month or 300k one month, 200k one month. And then now they're 200k a month. Entrepreneur forever.

Such many cases, bro. So many cases.

Like, so we.

Bro, bro. Some snippets are way too sophisticated in my.

I agree.

We're like, talking about, like, conversion economics, like psychographics.

We should.

We. Yeah, yeah.

Well, we can cut that and then we can wait one sec. Okay, guys, we're gonna wrap it here because this is getting way too complex. I'll see you in the next.

We're just investigated. Speak soon. Follow him. Follow me. Let's get it.

Much love. Best in the game. I'm the best in the game. Love you. Take care of.