Ep 140: Kate — A healing VBAC: Facing fears, finding trust and birthing a big baby

Welcome again. I've got with me a beautiful woman, one of my most favorite humans. I've known her for many years now, and her name is Kate. And Kate's here to talk about 2— her 2 births, and particularly focusing on the VBAC. She decided to have a vaginal birth after cesarean after an incredibly difficult first birth. And one of the things I always maintain is that each birth offers women a great deal of wisdom if we're open to seeing what gets created as a result of the birth, where we get very, very clear on what we want, what we don't want, what's important to us, what isn't, and what we'll tolerate and what we won't. And so Kate's birth is very much a story of redemption, of being able to reclaim what got lost first time round. And she ended up with a dirty big That baby, a gorgeous big buffer of a baby for number 2. So it flies in the face of women can't birth big babies. Kate's not a huge woman herself. So, um, yeah, I love, I love that. And I'm really looking forward to bringing this story to you. So thank you, my darling, for coming.

Oh, thank you, Tracey. I'm so happy to be talking to you.

Yeah. Now tell us, when you were pregnant with little Maeve, which is about— Maeve, which is about 3 years ago, How were you feeling about the idea of giving birth and what did you do to prepare?

I was excited about giving birth. I obviously did your Transform Your Birth course. That's pretty much everything I did. I, you know, did some prenatal Yoga. Um, but I think I, I just thought I can do that. I, I almost think I was a little naive. I, I felt like, yep, I've got this, I can do this. Um, which I can. Um.

Do you know where that belief came from?

I think Probably, um, doing your course was really helpful for myself and my partner Tristan, um, in understanding how physiological birth can look.

Hmm.

Um, I don't know actually, because I think I didn't really— on a subconscious level, I didn't really— sorry, Tracey, this is, um, rambling a bit. Yeah, I think just from, I think just from your course really, and experiences of, you know, friends having babies.

Um, and you'd been in my ecosystem, hadn't you?

I was about to say, I think, yeah. Working with you and, um, you know, knowing the work that you do, I think it just kind of, yeah, kind of permeated into me.

Yeah, Kate was my administrator for many years, and she would regularly see people come back and share their birth stories and, you know, And knew what was possible in birth. So I'm sure that had a big influence on it as well. So tell us how Maeve's birth unfolded.

Yeah, so Maeve, I went into labor, I would say early labor. I woke up on a Thursday morning at about 3 AM. And then I was in early labor for probably all day Thursday, all day Friday. I had a really nice couple of days. Tristan was off work then. My mom came over. We went for a walk. It was on the Friday that things started to get a little bit more Um, frequent and regular contractions.

Can I just come in there? A lot of people think, oh, being in early labor for 2 days sounds awful, but it sounds like you just made the most of it. Because the idea of a long labor like that can be very, very off-putting. But, but like a labor that starts spontaneously and gradually builds up, and you're being as normal as you can for as long as you can, you're going for walks, you're chatting to your mother, you're turning it into a beautiful experience. Is, is absolutely doable. Is that how you experienced those 2 days? Like, did you enjoy them or did you get frustrated?

Absolutely. I think I gaslit myself a little into thinking that I wasn't in labor.

Right. That helps actually. A bit of denial doesn't hurt anyone.

Yeah, exactly. But it did help. Um, Because yeah, I know everyone's experience is different, but I think I was thinking that, you know, maybe I'd go from 0 to 100.

Hmm.

Um, which was a bit intimidating, and that, that didn't happen. Um, I think the only thing with that was the lack of sleep, like the lack of rest, because I didn't sleep for I think it was 3 or possibly 4 nights before Maeve was actually born.

Yeah.

But I was able to rest.

Were you eating and drinking and things like that?

So, I mean, as we get into sort of how the birth progressed, this plays into it. But no, not as much as I could have been. I think on the Thursday I was. On the Friday, not so much. Um, and I don't think my body was getting the, the fuel that it—

Yeah.

Needed for later on. And that was actually like a key factor in the difference between Maeve's birth and Jesse's birth. Yeah.

Um, I think it's an important point to make that If you do end up with early labour that's manageable and you can be as normal as you can for as long as you can, it's important that you do eat and it's important that you do drink and it's important that you do rest. And it's not always easy to do any of those things because often you don't feel hungry. But your body is going to need that level of fuel and energy in order to be able to do the distance. Because the biggest challenge you have is you don't know how long you're going to be in labour for. And so you really have to pace yourself. And it's not always top of mind to eat because your digestion shuts down. So you actually need to be reminded. And then there comes a point in labor where you can't be normal anymore. You've got to focus on every contraction. And even then, it's important that you have little bits of food through that time because it could end up being a long birth. It could be quite quick. That's part of the mystery. But yeah, it's a good point, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it was, um, yeah, ended up being like quite a big factor in how things played out with both births.

Um, yeah.

So yeah, I was in early labor the Thursday and the Friday, and then Friday afternoon I thought, oh, I'll put a movie on, and everything changed. Like, the screen was too bright, it was too loud. I was like, I've got to get into it. I need to be in like a cave or something. Um, that was when things really ramped up. Um, and I think I said to Tristan that evening, just go and have some sleep. And I, I really just wanted to labor on my own. Um, I was feeling like quite confident and excited. I had a TENS machine. Had the fairy lights all set up. And so I labored probably until around, I don't know, maybe 10 or 11 PM. And that's when things got really intense. And I woke Tristan up and said, I need you to be with me. And I don't think he got much sleep anyway. He was listening out for me. And then we, at about 1:00 AM is when we went into the hospital. So I wasn't part of any continuity of care program. So we just went to the hospital, up to the birth suite. Contractions were— it was, yeah, pretty intense at that stage. I think between the car and getting to the birth suite, I had about 3 or 4 contractions.

Yeah.

And then sort of I let the midwife do a check to see where I was at. They said I was about 7 centimeters dilated and Hopped in the bath kind of expecting to meet my baby girl pretty soon. And ultimately, yeah, things stalled. And after about, oh, I couldn't tell you, maybe 12 hours of laboring in the hospital, I had a— Oh my gosh. an emergency C-section. It was classified as an emergency C-section, um, because my daughter was stuck, but it wasn't like a lights and sirens having to get to the theater kind of situation.

Yeah.

So yeah, it, it definitely shifted very quickly from, um, how I thought the birth was going to kind of unfold. One minute I was sort of laboring in the bath in the dark, and then the next I was, yeah, in surgery.

Yeah, and that's a big adjustment to make, isn't it, Kate, when you've had your mind and heart set on just being able to do it under your own steam and then needing help like that? And this is one of the things that we can't control, which is The sort of positions babies can sometimes put themselves in. She had her head flexed ultimately, and her little arm was up in the way too. So she was stopping herself from coming out. And so going through that would have been incredibly difficult. And birth, sometimes situations like that can really take you to the edge of yourself. And you experienced that, didn't you, Kate? Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think because things unfolded in the way that they did, I felt like I had very little control. And without going into too much detail, like the physical sensations that I was experiencing were extreme. I was in a lot of pain and a lot of fear. Um, and so both Tristan and myself didn't really know what was going on. Um, the midwives were, were lovely and respectful and supportive, but there were lots of shift changes.

Yeah.

Strangers coming in and out of the room. They were doing renovations in the room next door, so they were drilling into the wall. Um, Maeve was stuck. And so it was like I was stuck in transition essentially for hours and hours without understanding what was going on. So it was, yeah, it was actually very scary and quite traumatic.

This is where birth can get hijacked. And, you know, if you think of Physiological birth in the ideal conditions is we don't disturb the mother. We allow the physiology to do what it knows how to do. And when mothers feel safe, loved, and supported, their labours can generally, most of the time, unfold in a very straightforward manner. But even the act of going from home into hospital is a disturbance to the birth process. And then you team that— With loud noises, changing humans coming in and out who you don't know and don't have a relationship with, often bright lights, even though a lot of my families know to turn the lights off and try to create that intimate, safe environment. And then the point you made about not knowing what was going on. One of the most important things women need to know when they're in labour is that they're okay and the baby's okay.

Yeah.

It's, it's more important even than physical support and comfort because her whole nervous system is wired towards picking up on danger. And if you've got a midwife who walks in with her eyebrow in the air, even though she might be thinking about the woman she's just come out of the room next door, and she's looking worried, and then she moves, walks into another labor room, and then, and the woman in sees the midwives disturbed, that can change a labor and cause stress for that woman, which will change the labor, change the hormones. And when we go into survival and into a stress response, everything gets magnified. Okay. And the senses become more alert. She comes out of that baby brain or that mammalian brain into her cortex, and she starts to worry about her own safety and survival. And that unfortunately is what happens when women don't have that continuity of care and support and are in foreign environments. So, Kate, as a result of that, you made very different decisions for baby number 2. Can you talk about what was going on for you when you were pregnant with little Jessie?

Yeah, absolutely. So after Maeve's birth, yeah, I struggled a lot. And when I found out I was pregnant with Jessie, I knew that I wanted things to be different.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't quite know how, and I felt a bit overwhelmed. And we, we just moved as well. So I was kind of looking at what was around. I knew that I wanted midwifery-led care. And yeah, I knew that I wanted to be as informed as I possibly could be.

Yeah.

Yeah, so basically, I think when— so the hospital that's just near us at the time was purely doing a shared care model. So GP, OB, and midwifery care.

Yeah.

I went and saw a GP/OB just to confirm the pregnancy and sort of suss out what kind of model, what that model of care looked like. That actually ended up being quite a negative experience. And I was given information that was very fear-based. And at 6 weeks pregnant, I really didn't, didn't need that level of fear. And also, it didn't seem particularly evidence-based either. So I came out of that—

Useful. What's the point of that?

Yeah, yeah, it was terrible. Um, I like— I won't go into detail, but at one stage I said to the doctor, look, I want to be as informed as I possibly can be, but I'd also like to focus on what could possibly go right this time. And she looked at me and she said, oh yeah, let's, let's have positive vibes. And I thought, what? Like, you don't actually, um, Oh dear. Trust that I can do this because it was in the context of risk around having a VBAC. And also, you know, she was saying how like if I went past 41 and 3, she was going to have to induce, I would have to be induced. Otherwise, this is what would happen to my baby. And it was very bleak.

Which is actually inaccurate unless the woman had the word God written on her forehead or font of all wisdom. They don't know. That's part of the challenges with birth. Every birth is different and we can't assess risk at 6 weeks.

Absolutely. All it did was just instill unnecessary fear in me. And I'd actually just, listened to a podcast the day prior on, you know, risk around uterine rupture in VBACs. And what this doctor was saying was not aligning with the actual evidence. Yeah, so, um, I kind of went home and thought, okay, that's not for me. And I should note, I did have interactions with GPOBs throughout the pregnancy and, um, during birth that were very different.

Hmm.

And they were like, yeah, very, very different. So, um, yeah, I went home and I thought about what kind of support I wanted, and it reminded me of I'd heard Hazel Kettle talking.

Yep.

About V-backs. And I think it was her, she said something along the lines of, if you're preparing for a marathon, you don't want a coach that's going to say to you, I mean, you could try to do the marathon, but your body might give out, you might fall over and break your leg, you might get hit by a car, basically telling you all the reasons why you can't do it and you're not capable.

Yeah.

So yeah, that narrowed things down, and I knew that for me the best thing this time around was— and it's different for everyone, but for me, I wanted that midwifery-led care. Um, so I got in touch with a few home birth midwives I was interested in the public home birth program, but because I'd had a C-section, I wasn't eligible for that. So yeah, I got in touch with some private midwives and all of them were kind of wrapping up from being on call for home births. I think they'd all been— You know, practicing for a certain number of years and weren't doing home births anymore. So I felt like I was in a bit of a pickle and didn't really know what to do. However, very luckily— so Jesse was born in June. In February of this year, the hospital that I gave birth at started a midwifery group practice. And I was really lucky and I got accepted into that program. So by the time I got into that, and there were a few shifts and changes with the MGP midwife that I was going to be seeing, but by the time I kind of got into that and met the midwife who supported me rest of the way through. I was probably— I'd say I was well into my second trimester. Yeah. And so then I was part of that MGP model.

Nice.

The rest of the way through.

Yeah. So tell us how little Jesse's birth unfolded.

Yeah. So I should mention, With, yeah, with the MGP model, I had this one midwife, Lindsay, who— it's gonna make me emotional even talking about her because she was just phenomenal. She— I think it's important to mention how her and I built a relationship Prior to the birth, because I think that's the key factor in what informed Jesse's birth going the way that it did.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, so she was able to come and do, um, checks at home. Also, I had appointments with her in the hospital. I was quite fearful of hospital at that stage based on my experience with Maeve. So we had some of my appointments at the hospital to kind of get me more comfortable, yeah, um, with being in that environment.

Like, that's such wisdom right there, that you've got a midwife who's getting to know you, who's learning about what you're fearful of, and who's Putting in place, even before labour begins, strategies to help you to deal with and overcome your fears. And that's one of the advantages of continuity of a known midwife, which means that you build a relationship and that midwife gets to know who you are. And that's why this model is seen as gold standard, because relationships matter. And When you've got midwives who are looking after 3 or 4 women every shift and they're in and out of rooms and they, you know, have never had a relationship with you prior, so they don't always know who you are and what's important to you. And then you compare that to, you know, caseloading where the midwives have, you know, 4 women a month. They have appointments that are longer. They have time to get to know you and to be able to identify things that could get in the way of you being able to give birth. That's so very powerful. And then of course, we've got continuity of a known doctor, and that can be useful for some women too, particularly if they're high risk. Well, probably only if they're high risk really, in the sense that doctors are trained to deal with complex birth. And sometimes they have a bit of a habit of turning a normal birth into a complex birth by trying to do things because they're taught to manage and manage risk.

Mm-hmm.

particularly, and that's their job, that's what they're trained to do, and that's absolutely appropriate. But when normal healthy women go to an obstetrician, that can be a lovely experience. I'm certainly not talking negative against it, but you have to appreciate that it's a whole different model of care with a very different orientation. Whereas midwives who work in continuity typically are taught to trust the mother, to get the information from the mother about risk, like to really tune in to who she is and what she's noticing and how she's feeling and how well supported she is and what's her sexual history, if there's any sort of potential things that could inhibit her in the birth process, then, you know, that's a whole different ballgame. And that's why the outcomes of continuity are by far evidence-based. This is by far the best Much lower levels of intervention and much more satisfaction from the mother on the other side.

Yeah, absolutely. I wish that every mother, every birthing person could experience that level of care and support that I did. It really made all the difference. And yeah, so Lindsay actually went and found the— like, got the notes from Maeve's birth.

Right.

Went through them all, put together a timeline of what happened.

Yeah.

And then pulled out key factors that she felt were important in influencing how Jesse's birth could go.

Right.

And then she emailed them to me to give me time to go through and process it, and then sat down with me at our next appointment, which was at home, so I felt really comfortable. And we went through everything and looked at what actually unfolded with Maeve's birth and what we could do differently.

Differently. Beautiful. What a beautiful midwifery.

Yeah, I, I feel like I need to start a Lindsay fan club because honestly, like, Care and support that I received was just phenomenal. Yeah, it really was.

Um, you tend to fall in love with your midwives, don't you? Because, yeah, you're through one of the most vulnerable times in your lives. I still know the birthdays of my first 2 midwives.

Well, actually, um, yeah, Lindsay's birthday is the same as Maeve's birthday, so I always remember it.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think I just— I think it was so important because I was able to build that trust in her, and she knew what my preferences were. She knew what my history was. She knew what my fears were. Um, so yeah, I was afraid of the— I was very fearful of the hospital. Because, yeah, in my mind, I'd been laboring very well. It had all been going really well. And then everything shifted when I got to the hospital.

Right.

And then I was very afraid of Jesse getting stuck like Maeve had. And I had done a lot of work around it on releasing those fears. fears. But I was definitely still carrying them, which I realized while I was in labor. And to have that person there, that professional there that could kind of take those fears from me and hold them, if that makes sense, because I knew that she had the knowledge and the skills. to know when things were going as they should, or like if we needed to sort of—

Yeah.

Yeah, so that was incredible. So yeah, I went into labor with Jesse when I was 40, I can't remember. I know, I know due dates are a range, but I, I know I was pretty over it at that stage. I wanted him out. I was very large because, as we found out later, he was very large. Um, and so with Jesse, I was in labor for exactly 24 hours, pretty much to the minute.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I was asleep and I woke up At about half past 1, I had a contraction in my dream. And I woke up and I realized that that wasn't a dream, that I was actually having contractions. So yeah, I told Tristan that I thought I was in labor and encouraged him to try And get some sleep. And then I came out into the lounge room and labored. I put the TENS machine on, um, and just labored in the lounge room in sort of the dark with the fairy lights on. I had a playlist actually that, um, was really nice. I had a playlist for Maeve's birth. Oh, that's nice. And I was so kind of traumatized by the birth that I couldn't, I didn't want to listen to it. But then Tristan gently encouraged me and said like, this is a completely different baby and a completely different birth. So yeah, I listened to music, and at around 5 AM, it felt like things were really ramping up. Like, it felt like it felt when I went to the hospital with Maeve. Um, so I called Lindsay. I didn't want to wake her up, um, but I was sure— I was like, yep, okay, but things are happening. I think it was a bit of wishful, wishful thinking because it ended up being quite a long Labor. So yeah, I said like the contractions are getting quite intense and quite frequent. I think they were every few minutes at that stage. And then Maeve woke up and Everything slowed down. Um, I think my body just knew that it needed to look after Maeve. Um, so everything slowed down until about 9 AM when my mum came over, or 8 AM when mum came over and took Maeve.

Took Maeve and ramped up again.

It did ramp up again, but at the time it wasn't as quickly as I would have liked. I, I sort of— I had a lot of fear around a slow labor, and I wanted to know that things were progressing.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so it was all going a little slower, but it did pick up. Once Mum and Mavie left. So I was laboring at home and then Lindsey came over, probably at around 11 AM. And I asked her to do a check because I wanted to see how things were going and I felt really comfortable with her. And then what happened? I think, yeah, I was getting quite— I needed a lot of reassurance from Lindsay and Tristan this whole labor, like a lot of reassurance. I think I, I felt like I had worked through what had happened with Maeve, but I was, like I said, I was terrified that Jesse was going to get stuck, so I really needed that reassurance from them, especially as labor developed and, um, my headspace sort of shifted, I guess.

Um, that makes a lot of sense, Kate, because you had a lot of time in the hospital where things— pardon me— weren't progressing. And it's, of course, you know, that particular experience is going to get triggered in a second. But you had the right people around you to reassure you. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then when it started to pick up, what happened then?

Yeah, so I ended up asking to get a stretch and sweep, which I didn't think I would because I'd always Yeah, been not opposed to the idea, but I just didn't think it was something that I wanted. And I think it goes to show that you can be quite flexible in labor in terms of what kind of interventions, I suppose, you want.

Mm-hmm.

if you feel that your decisions are coming from an informed place.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, because at that stage I was like, come on, I want— like, I want things to pick up. Um, so yeah, it surprised myself because I didn't think I would want that. But again, I felt really comfortable with Lindsay and she was going to do it, so, um, we ended up going into the hospital to do that because, um, when she'd done the check, I was feeling pretty— like, I found it pretty physically uncomfortable. Um, and she said there's some gas and air at the hospital if you, if you would like to do the stretch and sweep. So we went to the hospital and Interestingly enough, as soon as we parked, like we just live a few minutes away from the little hospital that I gave birth at. As soon as we parked the car, everything ramped up again. Like my contractions got a lot stronger, a lot more frequent. And I thought that was interesting because I thought that going to the hospital would slow everything down. Like I said, I was scared. scared of the hospital. But because I had that relationship with Lindsey and I trusted her so much and I knew she would be there, it was like my body just, like, could let go.

Yeah.

I think it was hanging on a bit at home. So yeah, I got to the hospital. Lindsey had set the room up beautifully. fairy lights. She kind of, um, yeah, made it look less hospital-like. Um, and then, so yeah, we did the stretch and sweep and that was fine.

So already— She broke your waters? Is that what she ended up doing, breaking your waters, or not?

Not at that stage. We did a stretch and sweep and She said, you're about— she said, it looks like you're about 7 centimeters. We'll call it, you know, a stretchy 5.

Mm-hmm.

And at that stage, I was still able to kind of eat and walk and talk. So yeah, we did the stretch and sweep. And then Lindsay suggested if we wanted to just go for a walk and go and get some lunch. So Tristan and I went and did that. And at that stage, yeah, during the contractions, I needed to really, like, physically lean on Tristan and close my eyes. But yeah, it was all— it all felt pretty manageable. And then from around, yeah, the next 12 hours, from 1 PM to 1 AM, things were really intense labor-wise. Um, yeah, in the afternoon when we were back in the room, things really picked up. And again, I really needed a lot of reassurance.

Mm-hmm.

I, I think Yeah, I wanted, I wanted to kind of have it really together in my head that I'd worked through everything from last time. But I think birth brings up a lot and you can't hide from anything in birth. And I think if you've got any underlying fears or things that you haven't worked through, like, you can't hide from them. You're so in it. You can't run away. So I was definitely kind of spiraling negatively thinking he's stuck, like he's for sure stuck. And I, my brain was kind of looking at similarities, you know, I was about 7 centimeters when things turned to like, you know, things shifted with Maeve and Now I'm at the same point. So I was really grateful that I had, yeah, Lindsey and Tristan to reassure me. And I'd actually written like some preferences down that I did really need that reassurance.

Yeah. And Kate, I'm going to suggest most women need that. reassurance that things are fine, everybody's fine. That, you know, message of it's okay, everything is as it should be, is one of the most key messages a laboring woman needs in order to surrender to what is. Without that, and because you'd had that previous experience, without that, it's hard to really trust the process is unfolding. And the surrendering into labor land, which is that part of your mind that doesn't think is where birth progresses really well. But because of, you know, your previous experiences, there was still— the reality of that was still potentially playing on your mind. But at the end of the day, that's part of what each birth invites us to do, which is walking into the mystery. And every birth is different. Even if the same things end up happening, it's still a different experience. Yeah. How did it unfold then? When did you get to pushing?

Yeah. So I sort of still wasn't pushing and Lindsay suggested breaking my waters. And so I happily did that because I was like, anything that gets this baby down, um, I'll do. And even that was a different experience because that happened the first time and it was excruciating. Like, it was a very, very negative experience, whereas it was a positive experience.

Yeah, isn't that interesting? Different person.

Yeah. Yeah.

And did that ramp things up?

It did. Um, and I was doing, yeah, lots of different positions. Um, Lindsay set up a sheet so that I could really like kind of bear down and labor in that way. Um, but after a few hours, he still like— things still weren't Changing. And, and we think it's because he actually is just— was such a huge baby.

Open you up.

But I was freaking out. I was like, why isn't he coming? Like, what's happening? Um, so Lindsay actually found that there was still some waters, like a pocket of waters that hadn't broken. That was still intact, so she broke those. Um, and yeah, with everything she did, she always gave me all the information so that I could make a choice on what I wanted to happen.

Yeah.

Well, I always felt in control and I always felt informed, even if in my mind things weren't going well. Um, but they were going well. So then I hopped in the bath. But yes, still wasn't pushing. And at this stage it was like into the evening, so I'd been laboring for, I'm not sure, like probably close to 20 hours. And I was, yeah, freaking out a bit. And then Lindsey said, look, would you Would you like a doctor to come in? Well, the doctor who, like, I knew was on shift, she said, if you'd like the doctor to come in, she can do an ultrasound and just have a look at where baby is and just make sure that there's not, you know, something that is blocking him from coming down.

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, did that, and we found that he was in a really great position, but my bladder was a bit full. Ah, um, yeah, so we just did a really quick catheter and emptied my bladder, and then I hopped back in the bath, and then that's when I started.

Game on! There's a good little hint there, reminding women to go to the toilet every hour and a half to 2 hours. It can make a big difference to how labor progresses because the bladder can get in the way of the baby's descent.

And I'm not sure kind of how that happened because I had— Lindsay and Tristan had been encouraging me to go to the toilet. I'd been going to the toilet, but I don't— yeah, I'm not sure if it sort of just went a bit offline. Yeah. But yeah, once that Game on. Yeah, and it got very crazy and pretty psychedelic. Um, so I was pushing in the bath. Um, I don't know how long I was pushing for all up.

That's good. You're supposed to know how long you're pushing for. Yeah, time shouldn't be a factor.

Yeah. Um, But I was still very, yeah, just freaking out about why he wasn't coming, even though everything was different. Like, I could feel him bearing down. Yeah. Then I was getting exhausted, even though I had been eating and hydrated. Like, I'd been in labor for a long time at that stage.

Mm-hmm.

Nearly 24 hours. And so I asked Lindsey for some help with the pushing. So I got out of the bath and hopped on the bed, and she— we just did some guided pushing. She kind of helped me with where to focus my breath and my energy.

Yeah.

Um, and that helped a lot. And I think it also helped, um, with not experiencing, um, big tears. Um, yeah. And then it was wild. I had a, yeah, a really psychedelic experience, and I was, um, Yeah, thinking about Maeve a lot and still didn't believe that I was about to give birth. I still had so much fear.

Yeah.

Lindsey even took a photo of his head because his head had come out and to show me like, look, it's happening, like you're doing it. And in my mind, I was like, oh, can I still have a C-section if the head's out? Like, I just, I was really, yeah. Yeah, still had a lot of fear. But yeah, basically just kept pushing and the rest of his body came out.

And you need to tell us how big he was.

So he was 4.6 kilograms. Woohoo!

One little boffer.

I think it's 10 pound 3.

Yeah, beautiful.

He's insane. I'm, I'm 5 foot 2. I'm not a big person.

My grandmother had babies that size and she was about 5'1, I think. And they never induced back in those days. And all of her babies were big 10-pounders. And I think her third one was 11.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was wild. It was wild.

Here's the thing about big babies. Often doctors will cesarean women because of perceived big babies. And no doctor, nobody on the world, on the planet, can really tell whether a baby can fit through a pelvis because the baby's head molds. In other words, it collapses in on itself. Those plates are connected by soft tissue and they can overlap and mold. And then of course, the pelvis itself can expand because it's held together by ligaments which soften through a hormone called relaxin, making the pelvis very flexible. So given the right forces, big babies absolutely can make their way through the pelvis. and be born in a very straightforward, no-fuss way. And I often say to women, you know, it's not big babies that get stuck, it's malpositioned babies that get stuck. Little babies can get stuck if they're not in ideal positions. So, you know, the whole big baby thing— and look, in support of doctors, they're taught to manage risk and they see that as a potential risk factor. Um, but if the forces are right, if that baby's in a good position, you know, Kate birthed this beautiful big bull for baby even though her mind was still being challenged by fears. Even at the very end, her body still kept doing what it needed to do. How did it feel to have that baby on you?

Yeah, I'm gonna cry. It was like the most healing, redemptive moment of my life.

Yeah.

I felt triumphant. Like, I just— it was so beautiful. And it was beautiful meeting Maeve as well.

Mm-hmm.

But there was something so healing, and it was so calm. Um, you know, the, the placenta stayed attached. Um, we were just able to lie there for as long as we needed, and eventually after an hour or so, he, um, latched and had a feed, and it just all unfolded so beautifully.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but yeah, I really can't put into words how healing that experience was.

Yeah, I'm so pleased you got to come full circle with— because your first birth, you weren't in control of what unfolded. You weren't in control of the renovations happening, the people, the bright lights, the model of care you had. You didn't, you know, like the public system, if you can't get into continuity, Your only other choice is the public or private, a private obstetrician. So her positioning, the flexing, the hand going up, all of that was way beyond your control. But to then have a birth that was straightforward and no fuss— long, yeah, but still, you know, a very straightforward birth— is a beautiful opportunity for mothers to discover that You know, it wasn't me or my body. It was just the way things were. That's part of what we have to realize with birth. It's always going to take us on a ride into the mystery, and we can't control it. At best, we can influence it, and sometimes even then we can't influence it, and we have to surrender to what is. And I often draw this parallel to people listening to this, what you learn in birth sets you up for parenting. So even if you don't end up with a physiological, straightforward, non-complex birth or unmedicated birth, there's still a lot that gets activated inside of you which you can take the lessons from, which will help activate you into a greater version of the woman, into the mother. And the mother has to be bigger. She has to be able to get through things. She has to be able to get up countless times. She has to get on board with who her child is. She can't force a baby to sleep. At best, you can create the conditions for them to sleep. You can't force their personality. You can't train them into submission. Well, you probably can, but you'll do a lot of damage if you do. And so birth is all part— the journey of that is part of preparing us. for the bigger journey ahead, which is in the parenting. Can you see, Kate, with what you've learned, how that's influenced you as a mother?

Yeah, I think—

Taught you?

That I am stronger and more capable than I ever realized.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that, like you said, I, I can influence— like, just like in birth, I can influence things, but I can't control things.

Mm-hmm.

Um, knowing that your children are their own people and they'll come how they need to, and they will be who they need to be, and you can't control that, um, is teaching me to kind of, yeah, let, let go a bit of wanting that control. Yeah, yeah, it is.

It's one of the biggest lessons we need to learn as humans. Yeah, to be able to navigate wherever our path takes us and to overcome All of the obstacles in our path, all that we meet along the way, it's all there for us to grow and be bigger and better. And that's what parenting requires us to do. That's why birth is so valuable. It does matter.

Wow.

But I don't get too caught up in the type of birth that ends up unfolding. It's more about where the journey takes the woman and what she can take from that birth experience into her parenting.

Yeah, yeah, because I think it, it was a difficult— well, for me it was a difficult labor. Like, it was, it was long, um, it was hard, but it was so overwhelmingly positive.

Yeah.

Um, and I think those experiences, for me personally, that Yeah, those experiences have made me a stronger— I want to say, like, richer person, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

And I'm in no way saying that, you know, if you don't give birth, that that can't be your experience. But for me, it's been really transformative.

Mm-hmm.

And just knowing the importance and the value of having a team that you trust and that know you and care for you in such a way, it really informs how that whole— your journey into matrescence unfolds as well. Yeah.

Shout out to Lindsay, a good, best skilled, you know, intuitive, wise midwife. She's fostering that growth. She's holding space for that transformation to happen. And when midwives practice the art of midwifery, then amazing things can be unlocked within those mothers. Which is, you know, one of the things that our system is challenged with is we're teaching midwives all the clinical skills, but we're forgetting about the true art of midwifery and how to protect that and how to potentially head off complexity at the gate by just the way we treat women in labor. You know, her knowing your fears and being able to reassure you and take actions like the ultrasound was actually a really good thing to do to help you to really get on board with the fact that everything's normal because you were questioning it at every turn. And so just the way she was able to meet you around where you were at and guide you through that terrain, which was uncertainty. Is, is this, you know, is my baby stuck? Am I going to be able to do this? Was so very powerful. So big shout out. A midwife is honestly the best support you'll ever have if you're lucky enough to get those that do still know how to practice the art of midwifery, which is woman with woman to be with woman through this, this journey.

It was just incredible. The, the space that she held, the space that she protected.

Yeah.

Well, for me, the way she did it so kind of quietly, but she really, yeah, protected the space for me. Um, and it was a combination of her having those professional skills and that knowledge and that deep understanding of physiological birth Yeah. Alongside her empathy and, yeah, ability to sort of advocate for me and listen to what I needed and respect me. It just, yeah, made all the difference. I mean, Tristan was wonderful as well.

Yeah, I'm sure he was. We didn't really go into Tristan's role, but he did the whole journey with you both times.

Yeah.

We talk a lot about women being traumatized by birth, but not enough necessarily about the people who share that experience with them. It can be very difficult for them. But big shout out to Tristan too. I know him, he's a gorgeous man. And, um, it's lovely that you're able to get through that together and come full circle. So thank you for listening. I hope that's been a helpful story in helping us to really understand understand what does move the needle in birth. And I think your model of care is one of the most important decisions you'll ever make. So thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.