Ep130 : Priyanka ~ Two caesareans, advocacy, post natal doulas

Well, hello again.

Hi, Tracey.

Hello, Pri. I've got with me today Pri, who's Priyanka, is one of my dear mothers. I've worked with her for years in, in a couple of my programs, and I, as I always say, I love getting stories of two births because often the first birth teaches us things for the second. And I loved Pri's story and I really wanna bring it to you today because it really does highlight what we can do when things deviate off the normal path. In other words, when we go from plan A to plan B and sometimes even plan C. Thank you for coming, Madeline. Good to have you.

Oh, thank you for having me, Tracey Anderson Askew Askew. So nice to be here.

Now, Pri, go right back in time 'cause it's a few years now. To when you were having your first child. How were you feeling about the idea of giving birth? And then tell us about your preparation.

Sure. So Tracey, we're looking back almost a decade of us knowing each other, um, at a very different stage in my life. Um, and, um, I wasn't expecting to be pregnant, but things happen. Um, started feeling a little unwell and the garden started smelling really funky, and I was like, What's going on here? That fertilizer is appalling. Anyways, turned out I was pregnant. And you know, you go through the feelings of first you're excited, elated, and then all of a sudden— and I remember the doctor said to me, your lives will never be the same again. And we were like, oh yes, you know? And so it kind of sinks in, and you kind of start focusing so much on your pregnancy for a while. You know, pregnancy is the be-all and end-all, and especially with the first. And then the nerves started settling in, you know, thinking about what happens on the day, what happens after. And for me, it was particularly emotive because I come from a culture where women give birth around other women and you have a huge community. And I have moved away from my country of birth and from my community, so it was going to look very different for me. I'm very lucky I have a spouse who is very involved and very connected to how I was feeling and, you know, the whole experience. And so he could pick up a little bit on my anxiety and kind of, you know, don't want to say helpless, but the unknown.

Yeah.

And between us, the way we battle that is knowledge, empowering ourselves with some knowledge. So he actually found you. He was the one who was like, I have found this course. And we looked at a couple of your videos and he was convinced. And so we actually signed up for Calm Birth and we— Transform Your Birth, sorry— and we attended the sessions. And I guess just being there and also being around other parents in a similar situation and being you know, with someone who was so knowledgeable and in tune with how we were feeling. And not physically, you know, we're all feeling big, we're all feeling uncomfortable, but then the emotional side of it— because birth is just as much an emotional as a physical thing from what I experienced. And so just having someone kind of put the words into what you were feeling feeling, and then not just put that into words, but give you some tools, tools to help yourself. I think that was a very good branding for us. So it went from the kind of the fear of the unknown to, okay, whatever happens, I have this in my little basket and I've got my partner who also understands when I might not have the words for it. So it became a really wonderful exercise. Of, you know, whenever you come across an obstacle or something that might not go as planned, you have your little box of tools and you resort to that box of tools. And that kind of was very empowering for both of us, um, just for me, for him as well, because his first child, he is the child of an only child, you know, he never had changed a diaper. So he had his set of feelings as well. But just knowing that we both had this, you know, thing we could rely on, I think it turned a situation from being, you know, feeling like it was not in our control to quite a wonderful empowering experience for both of us. If that answers your question.

It does. And that is, I think, I call it the mystery. And that is the thing that becomes very apparent when you're pregnant that you can't, you don't know what's going to happen. No. And you can do all the preparation, you can do all the right things, and still things can change. And that can lead your mind, particularly your subconscious mind, to feel quite fearful and to create tension and angst in your system, which by the way can change your pregnancy and your, and your birth. And so having tools to anchor yourself for birth under all circumstances is what unloads the mind, which then can create more space for excitement and being curious about it and looking forward to the experience and knowing you've got a partner who knows how to help you. All of that can really shift things. So you did end up having a trip from Italy to India. Yeah. I often use that metaphor. We think we're going to Italy and then the pilot says, oh, sorry, plane got engine problems. We're going to have to land the plane in India. Yes. And the goal is to make the most of wherever you find yourself in. So do you want to just talk about what unfolded for the first birth, and then we'll use that to help people understand how what we can learn from that can go into the second birth? Yeah.

Um, so obviously my first pregnancy, um, I went to the birthing classes at the hospital, and I didn't really have many problems with my pregnancy. I was pretty healthy, I felt great, baby was growing nicely, you know. And then we came around to the day of delivery. I'm having my contractions, you know, it's all happening. But I— my, my, my birth didn't progress. I didn't dilate more than a centimeter. It was over a 24-hour period. And, you know, and then eventually baby was— instead of finding the door out, she was kind of bumping my hip. So it was just looking like it wasn't going to progress. So between my husband and I and doctor, we eventually decided a cesarean would be the safest option for me and the child. So we had a cesarean and baby was born and Yeah, she, she came into the world, very loud lungs, so she was like eager to get out. Um, and yeah, it was an early Christmas present for us.

You know, progress, progress is a really interesting phenomenon in that in a perfect world, babies would have their lovely heads tucked down and the crown presenting, and the crown axis of lovely wedge to the cervix and can start to open the door. And, um, and of course when they're presenting that way— pardon me— they then second stage can get much easier as well because the baby's head molds and compresses and creates more space. And, and that's in a perfect world. And sometimes babies get themselves into not so good positions, and the way that their head is presenting doesn't support the dilation or the opening of the doorway. We can sometimes help children, babies in labor to reposition by trying different positions, but not always. It is one of the things that remains the mystery around birth as to how babies are navigating their way. But creating space and things in your pregnancy can be very helpful, you know, staying active and all those things. But I had a woman share her birth story. She did all the right things. And had a very similar situation of a baby not being in such a good position and dilation not happening. So with that said, Pri, how did you feel after that? How did you feel about the birth?

You know, Tracey, like beginning of this episode, we talked about my toolbox.

Yeah.

And you know that some of the tools were preparing for birth, and it was preparing for a natural birth because that's what I envisaged with my breathing and, you know, keeping healthy, keeping active, kind of having a positive outlook. But then I also think in my toolbox you have your life experience and your own intuition. And my experience was, you know, I grew up in a developing country where access to Western medicine and hospitals are not always— were not always possible.

Yeah.

And so for me, it was an experience of— it would have been— look, I don't know what a natural birth feels like now because I haven't had one, but at the time, if you ask me honestly how I was feeling, it would have been really great to go through a natural birth process. But at the same hand, I was really grateful that my baby and I were well and And I had an excellent recovery from my cesarean. Yeah, I had a lot of support from the midwives. So there was those feelings where I made peace with it because, you know, you do hear about the positives of the natural birth and how it helps the baby's immune system. And you know, you're a new parent and you're like, I just want the best for my child. I just want to give this child everything. And there's nothing in my life I have experienced where I have that feeling. Um, so I think it's really important to acknowledge the grief or the disappointment that you feel.

Yeah.

Instead of burying it, because there is nothing wrong with you for being a parent who just wants that for your child. Sometimes these things don't happen, and that's okay too. So we always laugh, she came out through the sunroof, and I held her, and, you know, I got to breastfeed her. And it was quite funny, the doctor laughed. He said I had the most abundant milk supply on the ward, so I could have fed all the babies on the ward. So I may not have delivered naturally. I may not have delivered in the way that I had pictured this, but the outcome was just what I wanted it to be.

Yeah.

So yeah, I had a lot of feelings, and I made sure that I, I spoke about them, I wrote about them. And I think having that preparation really prepared me for a very difficult birth, which was my second child.

Mm.

Yeah.

Get into that.

Yes.

I, I, I'm always curious about how we, um, as women, on some level, there's often a deep, deep, not always, but there's often a deep desire to have a vaginal birth without the fuss, without the drugs. And we feel like that's going to lead to empowerment. And it's very true. They're like, some amazing things can happen when we allow nature to do its thing and that physiological birth is able to unfold in a straightforward way. In my experience, watching a lot of women, thousands of women give birth now and watching their journey, sometimes we learn more by the births that don't go that way than we do by the births that are straightforward. But there can be absolutely disappointment around that. And I really agree with you. We need to acknowledge the grief that can come. But I have never ever heard a child on their 21st birthday say, gee, mum, thanks for giving me a vaginal birth without the drugs because I just know it's just made my life so much better.

Yeah.

You know, in the greater scheme of things, it's, It comes because we want to do our best by the child and we want to have that experience for ourselves as well to know what it's like. But at the end of the day, it's not the type of birth that's really doing that, that's creating that empowerment, that transformation. It's what gets activated in the mother. And the process of activation doesn't happen by the type of birth as much as what she's able to bring to the situation on the day. And then how she's able to take that experience and integrate it into her life, learn the lessons, learn what the invitation of that birth was for her own personal transformation. When you look at it from that perspective, I think it makes a whole lot more sense because getting fixated on birth looking a certain way is like trying to say, I want my baby to look a certain way. I want my baby to behave a certain way. I want my baby to 'grow up to be X.' And as any parent knows, they might come in with those ideas, but children soon sort us out because they're going to be who they're going to be. Life is going to be what it's going to be.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Um, if you don't mind me adding, um, something to that, is, is something that you had taught us in your, in your classes and in your message. Having a choice in the decisions that happen. Yeah, you know, um, I think my doctor knew that my birth would not progress because I have since learned that the positioning and shape of my pelvis, um, is not conducive to natural birth.

Right.

I've had, you know, I've had a baby in another country and I've been seen by various obstetricians and it was kind of the same conclusion. But my obstetrician let me try, you know. I wanted to try, she let me try. I had contractions for a whole long time, and I felt heard. I felt heard, you know. And then when it came down to, all right, and there wasn't panic, there wasn't like, baby's in distress, blah blah. It was, let's have a talk. Let's sit down and have a talk. What are you ready for next? And I think having the choice in the decisions of how things came about, yeah, instead of me just watching, um, being passive, I think that made a huge difference as well because I, I felt part of the process. I felt, I felt heard. I felt You know, because I think sometimes, and I have had many friends and family members who have had birth didn't go, turn out the way they wanted, and they have often felt just, just a member of audience, you know, and they have felt disconnected from their bodies. And I didn't feel that because I I felt I was informed at every step of the way. You know, I did have medication then during— because I had a cesarean and I couldn't move. And some, some people are conflicted about whether having medication or not. And for me, I felt things were explained to me very calmly. I had beautiful midwives, but I also had a voice. And I think that's something so important because when you're going through this process, you are so vulnerable. Your emotions are amplified 100 times, and sometimes that can cause women to shout and, you know, squeeze their partner's hands tight and bite down on things. It can cause other women to shut down. And I think I am the second in conflict and panic, I, I lose my voice. But because I had thought about it and practiced, um, I gave myself time. And I even used— I put my hand up and like, I just need 5 minutes to think about this.

Yeah.

Um, and that also helped kind of make peace with the situation.

Gosh, that can make a difference, having that time and being— and it's so important we step up and become a part of the decision-making process when we can because You know, I often think birth trauma often gets created through too much, too soon, for too long, without support. So if you address some of those things, if you create the space to get your head around it, you feel supported, you feel respected, your voice is being heard, then it's amazing what women can endure and it not be traumatic for them. That the residual effects don't. Become long-lasting. But when those things aren't met, it can definitely lead down that path. Tell us now about your second birth. How did that unfold?

Um, so my second baby, um, funny fact, both my child— children had the same due date. Oh wow, at 40 weeks.

Yeah, you must have gone on heat, Pri.

I don't know.

And everybody, a certain time of the year you go on heat.

I was like Valentine's Day or what. Um, anyways, Um, so yeah, both my children have one, a one-day birthday apart, um, 4 years and a day. But, um, we moved overseas, uh, during COVID Um, and so I experienced the kind of maternity care, um, in the US, and I was considered a high-risk pregnancy because I was older. I was quite unwell with my second one. I had very bad nausea, but so they were just a bit, you know, more aware. It was a different process. I couldn't have my husband in all my OB appointments, so I kind of just floated along by myself in this, in a new country. We had a planned cesarean because it was very evident by then that natural, you know, I couldn't have birth naturally. So we booked it in. Um, I had my baby and we were fine for the first week. Um, and then I developed some complications, um, which I had a very rare episode of postpartum preeclampsia, right? Um, which is very rare, very rare, because I had no high blood pressure, no sugar problems. Not much manifested in my pregnancy apart from little headaches. And so it was challenging because I was separated from my baby because of treatment, right? And the treatment for postpartum preeclampsia is, you know, you're confined to a bed and you have the magnesium drip, uh, and that happened between 36 and 48 hours. So it was, it was challenging, um, and especially because you had— you weren't allowed any visitors. Um, so yeah, it was, it was— I think the situation around the birth was very challenging. Yeah.

What did you learn? About birth from these experiences?

Um, I think women are amazing. Um, you know, when you think that you can't go on, you just do. You just do. And you are your— and because I was physically alone, like, for a lot of the time, I had to be my own soldier. Like, I had to be my own defender. And without going into too much detail, but my preeclampsia was misdiagnosed at first. I was told I had gas.

The farts, great.

I did. So I was given a, what do you call it, like anti-flatulence medication or something. And then somebody else was like, maybe we'll take her blood pressure, and it was so high that she smacked the machine to check if the machine was working. Oh wow. Anyways, but then I got treated for it. Um, but I learned about birth, same as my first, you have to advocate for yourself. Like self-advocacy, it doesn't mean you're going out yelling and shouting or whatever, but you have a voice and your voice is important. And you may have medical care and you may have, you know, all the textbooks, but you know your body yourself. And I think you can tell when you're like, I'm tired because I've just had a baby, or I'm tired because there's something else going on. And I think being able to say that out loud and, you know, not feeling guilty 'Cause I talked to a lot of moms, you know. I was in this massive hospital, Tracey. It was like a spaceship. It was a very big women and children's hospital. And hundreds and hundreds of women, you know. And on my floor, it was the special floor for women who were being treated with preeclampsia. There were dozens and dozens of us. And it was, you know, kind of this situation where, let's say you don't feel so good, right? And you go to the hospital and you're like, oh, I'm just being silly, I'm just pregnant. If it turns out that it's good news and there's nothing wrong, that's what everybody just wants to hear. Yeah, you know. So don't second-guess about when your intuition is like, just let's go and get it checked out. I think that was an important thing that I learned. But yeah, I think from birth the most important thing I learned was self-advocacy, speaking up for yourself, speaking up. Yeah.

When that baby lands, who do we have to speak up for then?

Yeah, exactly.

It's training, people. Absolute training, because our children need us to be advocates for them too when they can't speak.

Absolutely.

And as they get older, yes.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's not something that comes naturally to a lot of us. And I think I often say the biggest mistake people make when they have their babies is they rock in to the hospital or wherever they're birthing and say, okay, get this baby out of me. And they don't engage in the process enough to inform themselves enough in order to be able to be part of the decision-making. And when things happen on your behalf and you come out of birth and go, well, what was that all about? Did I really need that? Could I have avoided that? Then the realisation strikes you that, you know, you've really handed over your power in that situation. And it's not that our carers aren't doing the best that they can. They often are. But it's often not even just about you. It can be about whether they're busy or not, whether they've had some complex births and they just want to get it over and done with, or whether they want to go home. I've just this morning spent the morning with my new mothers groups and we did birthday briefing in that session. And there was a couple of births where the carers were really tired and one just, she didn't want to have to go back to the hospital because she'd just come home. And she told the woman to stay at home, stay at home. And that changed that woman's birth dramatically to the point where when she did, like her labor ended up progressing really quickly and she was pushing on the way in and it just felt very overwhelming for her. Had she have gone in when she wanted to, that birth would've, she would've had time to get in the bath. She would've had time to recollect herself. And then be okay for that second stage. So, and there was no ill intention there, but it, but it is important that we find our voice in that and ask for what we need and, and follow that intuition.

Yeah. And I think it's the one moment in your life you are the center of the universe.

Yes.

You are the most important thing. And we can feel empathy people are tired. We can feel empathy that people have had a busy day. We can feel, you know, understanding that some doctors are risk-averse. Yeah, you can have all these understandings, but for that moment, you are the center of the universe and you are the most important thing. And it's just for that one moment because you are birthing a life, which the person who is tired or the person who is not doing. So I think in that moment If you can just say to yourself, this is the most important thing I'm doing right now in this whole room, yeah, and for my child and for myself, um, speak up. Just speak up. And the person who's tired may say, oh, I'm so tired, I can't do this, do you mind if my colleague comes and assists? You know, yeah, people are adults, they can look after themselves, but in that moment you need to look after yourself. I think.

And you matter.

Oh, yeah. And you're not responsible for all of them. You're responsible for here.

Beautiful. That's a great message.

It was a hard one because I'm the one who's worrying about everyone all the time. And then you're offering to make cups of tea while you're in labor and people are like, stop. I'm that person.

Sorry, it's time for you to, to be the princess. Well, my darlings, I hope that's been a really helpful podcast to listen to. Um, such wisdom in Pri's words. And at the end of the day, it is up to us to step up, become a part of the decision-making process, make the most of whatever situation we find ourselves in, and Yeah, it sounds like also the preparation was a really important part of her journey. So love to you all, and we'll see you again.

Thanks, Tracey Anderson Askew Askew.

Well, I'm back again because at the end of the conversation, Pri told me about how she— in— when she was in the US, she treated herself to a postpartum doula. And I thought, we haven't talked about postpartum doulas, but what an indulgence, my darling. Good for you. Best money ever. Tell us about it.

Oh, it was such a good investment.

Yeah.

Um, so my doula, her name's Sheyna, um, she was fabulous because she helped me with, um, breastfeeding. She became a friend. She would also help with the sibling. So, you know, if I was feeding baby and sibling was feeling left out or wanted to play She would entertain them. She would help, you know, because my husband was also feeding when I was expressing, and she would wash all the bottles, and she would do all the things without being asked.

Wow.

She was like my wife. She was amazing.

Oh my goodness.

And it wasn't like cheap, but, but it set me up for success.

Wow.

And 4 years later, I think about her so often because I am internally grateful, just because it's, it's, it's, um, it's interesting having someone in your house that's practically a stranger when you are so vulnerable.

Yeah.

Um, but she just lifted us all up. From dad to mom to both my children. I highly recommend it. We interviewed about 3, and we found Shayna.

And how did you know she was the right one?

Oh, it was her sense of humor. I don't know.

I wish I had a scientific answer for you, Tracey, but it's a feeling, isn't it?

You just know. Yeah, just know. And she was just, yeah, very similar, you know, temperament. Um, just kind. She was, look, every mother's dream. She was so clean. She was so clean. Like, her house was spotless. So I was like, you can stay forever. Um, but she was so tidy. She was just really bubbly. Um, I think she also taught yoga. She had a very calm demeanor about her. Um, not intrusive at all. Um, I had many vulnerable moments in front of her, and she just, you know, just easygoing. She was a wonder. Yes.

I know a lot of, um, doulas and the po— and postnatal doulas particularly, and they are golden often because they do understand the, the tenderness of that period of time and how with the right support, and not everybody has that in their families. So, hmm, that's a nice little treat. So we thought we'd add that to the podcast. I didn't want that little piece of gold to go. Thanks for listening. We'll see you again next week. Week. Bye.