EP 98: Are You Making Your Dog a "Prisoner of Reinforcement"?

How about a girl saying she's worked with amazing dog trainers that don't use any force, and then her dog's still reactive to dogs with balls? And then I thought it was dogs with tennis balls. Turns out it was dogs with testicles, which is like half of all dogs. So I'm like, why do you get to say what training to use or not? Yeah, that's a good one, to be fair, because it doesn't really work, does it? No.

I can recommend a whole bunch of decent positive only trainers. They just— it doesn't work.

Yeah, it's like someone with no teeth telling me like my, my teeth brushing routine. I don't believe you.

It doesn't seem to have been overly effective.

Be like taking, um, gym advice from K9 Optima.

Goddamn, I love how I say it like that now. Getting his shoulders.

Yeah, big press.

Big shoulder press.

So he misses me.

Yeah, he really does.

But I'm locking in. Yeah, I feel better for it too.

Yeah, do you though? Well, it could be completely, um, what do you call it, placebo though, couldn't it?

Yeah, you just feel like you're more in the real world though.

Yeah, fair enough.

I didn't know the Prime Minister retired. You probably didn't either, to be fair.

Did you?

I did. Yeah, I don't know how though.

Yeah. I knew like 3 days after. That's my point. Yeah, I don't know how. Yeah, so you don't know.

I was like, I don't know, I knew, but yeah, maybe it is that.

So yeah, very much on my moral like high horse with it all.

Yeah, but you know, we can all jump on that horse about certain things, can't we?

Yes. So do you— oh, this is awful. I'll put my hands up.

Go on then, both of them.

I'll put my hands up.

Like, you mean me?

I get a real foot guy. I quite like feet. Yeah, but that means when I see bad feet, I get very upset. Right.

Do you know what I mean? I don't— I can't understand where this is going.

It's like where you like— if you like cars.

Yeah.

And then you see not a nice car.

Yeah.

It's gonna hit you a little bit more, you know. It's like when you like German Shepherds and you see a great, well-put-together German Shepherd, but then you see a roach-backed German Shepherd and you get upset.

Yeah.

I'm like that with feet.

What does that sound like?

I appreciate a French manicure. I'll tell you where it's going. Don't ever bring those Can we get a close-up on these fucking things? Don't ever bring those on the podcast again. Oh my God.

His finger toes.

They're not, you know— Well, they're long feet.

He's a guy that respects a good foot.

I can't change them though, can I?

You could maybe get a pedicure or manicure. They're not terrible, they're just very long, aren't they?

My feet? Yeah.

Yeah, can we compare my fingers to your toes?

No, no, don't put that over there!

Make another one out—

look at it, look at it!

Got a good tan though.

Okay? Lucas is confused. Well...

He's not really not confused though, is he? Yeah, he just kind of looks around to kinda... Right, we need our postulating question for the podcast mate, give us a postulating question.

I think you... It's not really a question, is it?

Mate, it's not It's not, not hot as fuck in here.

I quite like it though. Do you?

Yeah, I feel like we're in a sauna a bit. It's like approaching on that sort of levels of temperature.

When it, um, there's a thunderstorm whilst we were offsite this morning and like initially it was a little bit cooler, but then it started to heat up. The humidity was wild. It's like proper, like, you know, when you just don't feel like you can— your sweat's doing nothing. Yeah, no cooling effect even though you're outdoors.

I got one. Nice. Should you tell a dog what to do or tell it not— what not to do?

Oh, nice. It's really short, though, isn't it?

Yeah, a little bit.

It's kind of short. We'll weigh up some pros and cons.

There's a couple of things to do, I think.

Go on then.

I, I really only tell my dogs to do two things. One of them is lie down sometimes. Oh yeah, because I went to the pub yesterday Obviously, big pisshead.

Without me.

Without you.

The second time in two days. It was the—

I was working! You don't like it. So I went to the pub, and I took the bag in there, 'cause the van was warm. He gotta lie down, hasn't he? If I don't tell him to lie down at that point, I'd have to tell him not to do a lot of things.

Yes.

Many things. Mostly the stealing of other people's food.

Okay.

So I told him to lie down. And then the other one that I tell him to do and compel him to do on occasion is recall. Those are the only two things.

You can force him back when you're called?

Yeah. Okay. Everything else is what not to do.

Okay. Okay, I'm listening.

By knowing a few things that he can't do, he can choose many, many, many other things. It's only on a— like, only in the pub would I tell him to lay down. I don't tell him to lay down at home. He does what he fucking wants.

Do you not? Sometimes I do. Do you? Yeah, they don't listen though, so it doesn't really count. I tell them to, whether they oblige is different.

They, uh, they don't.

It's like 50/50.

Yeah, fair enough.

They're happy enough, I'm happy enough for them. They make me laugh.

I suppose what I do do though— I do do?

Do do.

Is in the same instances, like if I'm in the living room yeah, and the other dogs are all settled, and he's like the bag's pecking everyone trying to get a rise out of him. Yeah, I might say fucking leave. I don't punish him for it, but I'll be like, nah, not, not right now, mate. So I suppose I tell him not to do it, and then by proxy he figures out that, well, I might as well lie down then.

Yeah, I might as well go sleepies. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's more how my place operates, I guess.

Yeah, like don't, don't menace. No, he's had enough. He's had enough.

Seriously, he's had enough about that, mate. How many times do I have to tell you?

Yeah, come on. This is the— I don't know, a lot of time. A lot of time. Um, so I reckon—

We have the Shepherds in, don't we?

Yeah.

Why do you think that is?

They just love it, don't they? This one here, remember that one used to love it?

Yeah, she did, didn't she? Come on then.

She used to be shouting at everyone and everything.

Yep.

It's pretty decent now though, isn't it?

Yeah, it's really good.

When's the last time she had a good hoof off?

Grandma.

Last week. No, it's last week.

What'd she hoof off at? This is Sheila.

Cheesy.

She has some sort of bullshit real name like Nix or something.

Yeah, it's a terrible name. Shite, isn't it?

It's one of the worst dog names I've ever heard.

I call her Chez Long.

Chez Long.

Because she's quite long.

So we found Sheila, did we? Oh no, it was one of Lucas's clients and They said, we can't handle her anymore, we can't. All that shit about not giving her the best life possible. Yeah, nonsense. But we got quite lucky. But she used to boot off quite bad, didn't she?

Yeah. And what did you do? Did you tell her what to do or you tell her what not to do? Because I was there. You kind of did it. Yeah, I did it. Yeah, he kind of did it.

Yeah, it was interesting that.

Yeah.

Was she pretty good from that day on? Yeah, she actually was.

Yeah.

So she kicking off at everything. This is a good case in point actually, isn't it?

Yeah, this is brilliant.

You're kicking off at absolutely everything. God, I've gone full 180 on dog training. And we put her on a bit of a 5-meter leash. I brought Stark out. I was like, tell you what, we'll wind her neck in.

Yep.

She had a decent punishment for trying to kick off at him.

Yep.

And then I let her go over to him where she was like hesitant, but you know, he's a pretty good boy. They had a little bit of a sniff. It's almost like— And by her own owner's accord, She's been pretty good from that day on. But yeah, it was kind of—

yeah, it's almost like what she predicted was gonna happen didn't happen.

There you go.

And then there was a learning event. It's almost like that. And it's almost like—

imagine how much time we could have wasted.

Yeah. Are you on a bicky, Randy Doggy?

And what's dangerous is when you first got her, she was what, like 6 months old?

Yeah.

There's a lot of developing to do from that 6 to 12 months.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the 6-month period it's gonna take you to train a dog, isn't it? Yeah, and now she plays with the Stark.

Yeah, she's fucking lovely. She's sound with all the dogs here.

Yeah, she's really good.

All the dogs in there, she does a bit of stooging.

And you could maybe argue that she didn't have the best association to dogs.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, but yet she had her neck wound in. Yep, it was just a decent lead correction really. She was like, oh fuck, maybe I won't throw myself at other dogs and try and chin them.

Yeah.

And then therefore, after what happened?

She discovered she didn't need to.

Brilliant. Yeah. She discovered it was to no avail. It was pointless. It was not necessary in any way, shape, or form. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is dog training. Oh God. The end. What?

I just feel like we might cop some for this one. It's completely true.

Of course it's true. Look, she's great around dogs. She's really good around dogs.

She used to be a little bit spicy with people, wasn't she? Yeah, she's bitten people in the past. She's got a decent body count on her. Yeah, you included. What was it I fed her when she fucking had the shits the day after?

Chicken. We both did. Yeah, yeah, we had some roast chicken and we fed her pretty much half of it. She loved it.

I'm a feeder. Oh yeah.

But she was shitting out the eye of a needle.

She smells so nice.

She feels nice too, doesn't she? Yeah, I love this dog.

She's a great dog.

It's one of my all-time favorite dogs.

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

Yeah, I don't know what it is. Shields, we love you.

She's got a personality.

We refuse to call you by your actual name because it's shit.

Imagine though, like, how much you suppress that personality with that one correction. Yeah, got no personality now, have you, kids? That's why we love you so much, because you've got no personality.

I know, we love this personality lifeless robot dead dog. No, it's funny, isn't it?

Yeah, it's crazy.

How did we, how did we get here? How did we get here, mate? I'm actually perplexed as to how we got here.

What do you mean?

Like, I don't know, I don't know, I'm saying like, I wish we should have filmed it.

Yeah, we should. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, should have filmed it and then the reintegration after.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like, obviously—

And what she's like now. She's a full stooge dog. Yeah, great stooge dog.

You caught her probably at the right time. So like, if that was at 18 months—

Well, that's why we did it. Because it was like, actually 6 months old. If it develops anymore, we might have to put some actual effort in.

Joking.

Yeah.

There's a bit of that though. Yeah.

Yeah, this is the thing when you speak to, um, which I don't do many anymore, but when you do like your discovery calls and they're like, oh well, it might just go away, I'm like, definitely won't. No, it'll definitely get worse. And obviously it sounds horrible and salesy when you say it, but it's a fucking science fact. Yeah, if the dog's getting anything out of it, it's more likely to pick that choice.

And if you've got a German Shepherd or a Malamute, or maybe even a combination of both Good meal. Then they're likely to get something out of hoofing off.

Yeah, of course they are.

Clearly.

We do.

We do, you do. When was the last time you hoofed off? It's quite regular with you, isn't it?

Yeah, no, no. Yeah, it is. No, it isn't. Yes, it is. No, it isn't. Yes, it is.

It's been great recently.

It's been great recently, been very stoic.

Especially in the road, in the traffic.

Yeah, fair enough, but I don't do that anymore.

Yeah, I had to almost hold a bit of an intervention in Australia, didn't I?

What do you mean?

Live and let live. He wants to kill every other person on the road.

Yeah, maybe.

For a bit.

Yeah, alright.

For a bit.

Yeah. I'm like Bumble, from within the truck, like super horrible, frustrated, savage-looking thing, and then you just let me out the door and I'm fine.

Yeah, funny that.

Yeah.

Really funny. Oh, I look forward to seeing this dog every day.

Should we like slightly circle back?

Fucking go on then.

Well, you said, should you tell the dog what to do or what not to do? What not to do worked really well with this one.

It did actually. We didn't do any sits or paws. I know he's done some skills now, but that's way after the fact, can't you?

Yeah, I'd much rather have a dog that has got a bit of clarity first.

And this is why I'm kind of not on board with the, oh, first you teach a dog what to do.

Yeah.

And then you have to teach a dog not what to do.

Yeah.

I get there might be some prerequisites.

Yep.

Pree-requirements.

Yep.

Maybe, but sometimes it's in the dog's best interest to start with not what to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To open up a bit of thinking space for what to do, you know?

Totally, yeah. It's weird that I'm agreeing with you.

Aggressively developing, aggressively developing aggressiveness. Yeah. You're against the clock, as you've said.

I think that's the bit that people don't necessarily appreciate all the time.

Circumstances. Works at a dog training centre, probably gonna see a few dogs.

Yep.

Just like some people might live somewhere where they're gonna bump into more dogs than not.

Yep.

And that's a lot at the moment, 'cause every fucker's got a dog.

Outside of threshold distance.

Yeah.

Becomes difficult, doesn't it?

Becomes very difficult. So he could either leave his dog at home, if they worked on the appropriate threshold. Yep. Or do some sort of military spec operation constantly around work.

Yep.

For 2 to 3 years.

Bag over the head, get out of the car, toilet, bag back on the head.

Full Taylor Swift.

Yep.

In the big box. Wheel her in and out of the office, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Or just say, and you might eventually have to just wind her neck in anyway.

Yeah, that's the—

she's getting loads of shits and giggles out of it.

Yeah. And the biggest problem with that is dogs that are, well, inimically reinforced by it— so if you can stop it sometimes, sometimes you don't— more resistant to punishment neurologically than a developed dog. Yeah, yeah.

So it kind of makes sense to just say, hey, don't do that. Yes, a bit like sooner rather than later. Yeah, I reckon. Yeah, if you think about it like logically almost.

So if we would, you know, like those graphics where they do that and like in fucking computer games. Yeah, we're kind of like that. I mean, in terms of not what to do.

Yeah, the votes are in and yeah, 96% of our brain cells says teach your dog not what to do.

The talk we do on stopping behaviors on the boot camp. Like, I'll open with, whose dog can sit? And everyone's like, yep. Whose dog can down? Maybe slightly less. Whose dog can recall? Usually a bit shit. Who wants to be able to stop the behavior?

Everyone's hand flies up. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm like, yeah, because you can go on fucking YouTube and find a million and one ways to teach a sit, and they'll probably all work. Yeah, they might work, not work when the dog's motivated to do something else. Yeah, but the teaching of it, pretty fucking easy. Yeah, down pretty easy. The principles of recall also pretty easy. But then as soon as you stick in a bit of exterior motivation and it gets a little bit more difficult, doesn't it? But if that exterior motivation is taken off the table, okay, I'll do this because don't I get a bit of cash for that? Yeah, you can.

You can do it.

And now your cash means something. Because someone's not offering you the lottery win over there.

And you can't not allow certain behaviors to happen by telling a dog what to do. Yeah, you can't. Yeah, but the downside is them not doing the thing you want to stop becomes conditional by being told what to do. Yeah, if you have stopped quote-unquote behaviors, unwanted behaviors, with command and instruction, which we've probably said on this before, but in case we haven't, I'm saying it again. And so you constantly— you create a dog that constantly needs to be given instruction to be good, which isn't a liberated dog, right?

No.

And the point in training is to give our dog more freedom, not less.

It's a prisoner of reinforcement.

It's a prisoner of reinforcement. You dumb fucks. It's true though, innit? Yeah, innit? Yeah. And I feel like when the dog does make the choice of not what to do, the what to do after being told not what to do, they're gonna make the choice that is most reinforcing to them.

Yeah, most likely. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, if we think about— if we break it down, you should. Yeah, well, if there's something more reinforcing, if they pick something else, then surely that's—

I was just thinking.

And so it allows us to use optimal reinforcement because of— we're always giving the dog— I'm just talking shit out loud, but we're potentially always giving the dog the next, the best possible thing in that moment, you know what I mean? So if you say, hey, don't chase that fucking sheep, and you say, you know, do whatever else you want, if they come back to us and we give in anticipation of food, it's like, oh, that's what I wanted in that moment.

Yeah.

Or in anticipation of ball, and we give ball, or they simply go and sniff or lie down. We're always playing our best hand, I guess. Yeah, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Whereas if we are compelling into behaviors or positive reinforcement into behaviors, are we giving our best hand? We're saying, no, you are what you want, you want this.

Well, yeah, yeah, you're not necessarily giving the dog's best hand, but you're giving them the best available hand that we have. Yeah, yeah, because if you use a bit of compulsion into it, it will be reinforcing for the dog to do it.

Yeah, true.

But it might not be what the dog wants to do. Yeah, well, it probably won't be because you're making him do it.

Yeah, probably wanted to kill the sheep.

Yeah, fair enough. Interesting.

And then another case would be, um, you're out walking your dog and they see something that is highly motivating for them to go towards, highly appeasing. Is that right?

Appetitive.

Appetitive. Such as killing a sheep or appetizing, doing something they shouldn't, literally.

If it was, yeah, maybe a sheep.

And if we've only taught them what to do, what not to do via instruction, if we're not there to give the instruction, they've already killed the sheep instead.

Yeah, I was just thinking about that example though, right? Because you said obviously punishment and then the dog will pick what's most reinforcing for them, but she had her options restricted by the tether as well.

Yeah, she did, to be fair.

So I mean, why— what I was kind of thinking was, yeah, They'll pick the most reinforcing thing they're still capable of choosing. Do I mean—

yeah, but like, that's saying for the most reinforcing for me acutely thing for me to do acutely right now would be to go and have a cold drink.

No, but so you're going—

in the absence of restriction, it would be to rip into Margot Robbie.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, we're all restricted, you know, restrictions always there. I'm not backtied right now. I've got full liberty to a degree.

Probably slightly logistically backtied, but yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, it was just making me think with— because obviously—

so yeah, my point is I have an invisible backtie on.

We all do. Yeah, yeah, to a degree. Goddamn the backties.

Unless—

I don't know, the problem is when you start justifying those backties. Go on. So, you know, when people like accept their limitation— I don't know where this is gonna go— and they justify it and like, oh yeah, I can't do that because of my limitations, I think that's problematic.

Go on.

Not a dog training sense, more of a human sense. But like, oh, um, yeah, well, I would lose weight, but I've got to take the kids to school, so I can never make the gym, and then they gotta pick them up.

So you're just pathetic shit people.

That's probably a bad example, but you know, like, as soon as you start justifying the handcuffs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're in a bad state of affairs.

Yeah, people do it to the training their dogs. Yeah, a lot of excuses to why my dog can't be trained. Yeah, yeah, just bring you a little bit on track. It's good though, just do that way in.

Yeah, a little compelling into the, uh, yeah, yeah, that's true. Like XYZ reason why they can't.

Go on, we'll go reason for reason. Go. He's a rescue. Oh, I don't.

Where'd you get that dog from? That was more of a rehome, right? Yeah, but there's not a lot of difference between a rescue and a rehome, particularly when the motivation for that dog to be relinquished is the fact that it's a whopper. Yeah, it's like you could get a rescue that's actually fine.

Yeah, you could.

So you can't even say just because my dog's a rescue is therefore not fine. Yeah, the same, same with rehomes and that, isn't it? Could be fine, could not be fine. The financial one gets me sometimes. I know this is going to sound awful and awful and businessy, but the financial one gets me, right? 'Cause like—

Only when people prioritize their money on other shit.

Yeah. Like, if you genuinely got no cash, that's obviously like a limiting factor.

Yeah.

So is access to cash a priority of cash?

Yeah.

Because I see some people spend some shit.

Exactly. And then it's infuriating, isn't it?

Yeah. I bet for 99.9% of people that say dog training is too expensive, if they're fairly— They're funny. If their telly fell off the wall tomorrow, they'd go out and replace it straight away.

Yeah, I wouldn't. Nah, I'd actually kind of see it as a blessing. Yeah, although recently I've been going home— well, I say recently, two nights I've watched a bit of TV and all my health stats have got better because I've actually shut off. And I should pick something else to do rather than watch TV, but I've actually stopped thinking about shit on a night and it's helped my health stats. Yeah.

That's good. I don't have social media, so I don't have that problem, but that's good for you.

What are you thinking about social media, you nerd?

Oh no, yeah, but you can't say that because social media is a lot— is his job is to basically implant seeds.

Yeah, yeah, no, I get that.

So you're not thinking about scrolling through Instagram, but you're thinking about stuff you've been exposed to by Instagram.

Do you know what usually I'm thinking about is these lot.

These trainers?

No, no, not so much the trainers.

The dogs.

The dogs, yeah, yeah, right. That dog needs to be X place by Friday. What am I going to change tomorrow? Just like, all right, all right. I don't know, which sounds really conscientious and I'm not, so there you are. I'll say— I'll talk about something else instead. So I'm thinking about birds and that.

Excuses as to why people don't train dogs?

Uh, time would be one. As well. I don't have time to do it. But I mean, that's just a horrible thing to say. You don't have time for your dog.

If you don't have time to train a dog, you probably don't have time for your adult.

Yeah, precisely. Like, if you truly think about it.

'Cause as we know via Sheila, it doesn't take all that long to—

It can be really simple.

Took about 14 seconds.

Yep. Yeah.

I think it was actually quicker than McGregor's knockout.

What do you even think, like, some of our longer stuff, like a 5-day boot camp? Yeah, it's 5 days, mate, and your dog's fucking 1 year old. It's hopefully going to live for another 14 years. So you're saying you can't spend 5 days on your dog for 14 years of— for 14 years of a solid relationship, liberation, going wherever the fuck you want, going for holidays, the dog's like, just like drinking beers with you and chill.

I don't know, it doesn't make sense.

No, it doesn't.

It's a human thing, I think. Yeah, a lot of people though, to be fair, people say, yeah, it's expensive, but it's only expensive when I'm not sure it's going to work because I've tried shit before.

Yeah, this is getting also awfully like— what, salesy for us? Yeah, but you bang right though. Yeah, and we get— I get— I, I feel like we're— I don't know why this is, and you might be able to tell me, but a lot of the calls I get were like the fourth trainer. We're almost people's last resort of training. And I don't know whether that's— I suppose we're not cheap. Is it because they try cheaper versions first? I don't know. Maybe it's because they try positive versions first because they want to be— they don't want to use any aversive methods with the dog. I don't know. You could probably tell me. I feel like it's on the table. Maybe if I stop talking, you're gonna— if I stop talking, are you gonna tell me? Maybe?

Literally in all of our adverts and all of our websites, it says, is this for you if you've tried multiple trainers before? On every single webinar.

Does it?

If you've tried multiple trainers before and to no avail, keep listening.

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

This is in the form they fill out.

I've never been on one of your webinars though, so I don't—

Yeah, that's true, that is true.

So I don't know.

That's funny. We should tell people on the podcast about Lang Cook, and then if they come on a webinar, they'll be like, oh, Lang Cook. Just look out for Lam Cook, guys. Yeah, you probably know him better than you think. That's all I'm saying.

They could do.

We've got some webinar attendees now. But yeah, jokes aside, on our messaging, on our front end, it does kind of— it does speak to failed past attempts and things like that. Um, you know, end of the day, we utilize tools. Um, you know, we're not cheap. Dog training can either be cheap, fast, or effective, or two of those things.

Yep. Okay.

Can't, can't, can't be all three. It probably can, I don't know, but you wouldn't want to be anyway.

And maybe it could be, but it wouldn't be sustainable.

Yeah. And so a lot of the clients that come to us that have a decent dig have tried multiple people before.

Yep.

And so we look for that type of person, and that's why we speak to them. Yeah, so that's a little bit why, um, it's a little bit like, you know, we have lots of reviews of German Shepherds in and stuff. Yeah, so we get a lot of German Shepherds come through.

Yeah, you know, just start really pushing the Frenchie reviews, I think.

Yeah, good. You can do—

yeah, it's like we had a lot of sausage dog content. How many, like, Google accounts I can open before I get flagged?

That's a big head.

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Yeah.

Go on then, who are you and where do you come from? And who the hell is this leviathan?

So this is Gus.

It's ridiculous.

Yeah, big boy.

This is Gus.

I'm Sarah.

And I'm Shane.

And we're from Sheffield.

Nice. Yorkshire-based, just around the corner.

Yeah, not far.

All right then, who's this? Give us more detail about Gus.

So Gus is 19 months old, a Cane Corso, um, from Manchester.

All right, sit down. Good boy, good boy, Gus.

So he's a mank.

He's a mank.

That explains a lot. But at least he likes his bickies, eh?

He does.

All right then, so what issues did you have? Why did you obviously come to a boot camp with us?

Okay, so he was very reactive. He's actually pulled me over on a walk in middle of a road going for another dog. Yeah. And I ended up being quite hurt, flat on my face, potentially could have got knocked over. Yep. And just completely lost all confidence in him and myself walking him. I just couldn't, couldn't deal with it.

I remember at one point in the week I had to tell you to actually breathe.

Yeah.

That was quite interesting.

Yeah, yeah. I do get to the point where I can't breathe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just the fear that I've got of him, um, lunging and hurting either a child, an older person.

Yeah.

Well, anybody really, or another dog, was really high, you know. It was frightening.

I think one of, one of the main things is because he is such a large breed, and large breeds these days have such a bad press.

Yeah.

We wanted to be responsible owners.

Yeah, fair enough.

Good.

And we'd, we'd work quite hard on his obedience levels, but as we found out, you can't cure reactivity with obedience.

Nice.

And we did struggle. And, and he, because he's 60 kilograms, you know, he's, he's not a, a slight dog. No, he's not something that you can just pull. So obviously he's pulled me from one end of a, a field to another, you know.

Yeah.

He's very, very strong. And, and obviously I don't have the strength to hold him back. But then I don't want to hold him back with strength. I wanted to hold him back with his mind.

Okay.

But I just didn't have the knowledge to do it.

Enjoyed yourselves?

Absolutely.

Absolutely fantastic.

I couldn't— I didn't imagine for a minute that we would be where we are today.

Okay.

Within 5 days. The transformation, as you can see, it's incredible. Yeah, it really is incredible.

Have you found the process all right? Because obviously you were fairly nervous, should we say?

Very nervous. Really, really nervous. And especially walking out into a field with a load of other dogs that I know. And like on the Monday morning when he reacted and he launched himself at the Stooge dog.

Yeah.

And then having to come into an arena that's got a load of other dogs was Yeah, hard. It was, yeah, it was. I was petrified.

Hey, you did grand though, you're fine.

What training had you tried before towards reactivity?

Yeah, uh, obviously I'd watch your, uh, online YouTube videos, uh, specifically as, as I've spoke to you, I'll watch the Mike Ellis one, and I tried to take that. Obviously Sarah had removed herself from the equation at that point because she was scared. She was not scared of him hurting her. Yeah, physically, but it became unhandleable for Sarah. And I'm very difficult for me as well when he went into the red zone moments. And he did— some of the moments were proper red zone towards other dogs especially.

Yeah.

And I've tried, I've tried many things, different YouTube videos. I've tried checking him Giving him exposure at a distance from his triggers as much as I could control it in a public place. Yeah, obviously without putting myself or anybody else at risk. That didn't work. There was a slight improvement, but nothing, you know, nothing you could, you could really say made a big difference. So we'd spent so long on his from him being 8 weeks old, 3 training sessions every day for obedience.

Yeah.

And this is where we missed out. And we— it was beyond— I've got experience with, with dogs all my life, and I think I've been quite successful training dogs to the level that I needed. But it— this was just something new to me. I'd never experienced reactivity in a dog before. We were then looking to ourselves as to what we'd done wrong, or what I'd done wrong in particular. Yeah, uh, because Sarah's experience has been a lot less. I've sort of been the one that's— and the dogs we've had in past, I've been the one that's took over the training, and then I'd sort of come up with the exercises. Sarah used to repeat the exercises and, and reinforce things. And this I'd never experienced, never experienced.

It was certainly on another level.

Yeah, and I think You see a lot of, in my opinion, you see a lot of dogs in public that suffer from the same thing, but because they're smaller dogs, they're more manageable dogs, people ignore it. They can work around it. But this, for us now, for what we've done this week, it's been an absolute— not a game changer, it's been a life changer, a massive life change to, to be sat Amongst other dogs in this calm state is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal.

We've never been in a position where we could go to a pub or, well, we couldn't even go into an area where there were other dogs because he would just kick off straight away. So we've not even been able to do that. So we've had to avoid, we've had to go to private field, like private fields where there is no not a chance of meeting another dog.

Yeah, for 6 months I've walked him on country lanes and in farmers' fields, just avoiding— yeah, so he still gets the exercise that he needs and the stimulation. But we've just— you're planning every single walk around times, uh, you know, you know that, uh, if people are out walking early in the morning, so I used to go at 11 o'clock into middle of nowhere where chances of meeting another dog were very minimal because it is— he has pulled me over as well, obviously to not to the same extent as Sarah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it had— Sarah's confidence had— was gone and I just couldn't do it. It's been, it's been a, a quite an emotional trip for me this week, uh, because Sarah's been doing the majority of the handling Yeah. And it started off where I, she was leaning on me to, in situations that she knew would create a trigger.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And I've gradually stepped back and Sarah's confidence, as Sarah's confidence has grown.

Mm-hmm.

And it, and it really has grown massively. And well, I'm sure you'd agree.

Yeah, absolutely. And there, there was, there'd be absolutely no way that I would've gone around the park, walked around the park. I wouldn't have gone to a pub. I wouldn't have even held him walking into a pub. I wouldn't have held him anywhere. And now I'm walking him everywhere. I'm doing everything. I've done the park, I've walked around with the dogs, gone to the pub, and it really has been a life-changing experience.

It has, it has.

Because it was ruining our life.

And what I found absolutely fantastic about this process is you start off early. I were very skeptical, and you start off quite slow because you don't realize what's, what's building. You can't, you can't see it until probably day 3, and then all of a sudden things start to— they just drop into place, into place, and it's, it's amazing. And it's, it's balanced training. There's, you know, there's— the dog loves it. We've got to a position now where in the morning to come, it was straight in, straight in the van, uh, absolutely no hesitation.

Keen, really, bro.

And the facilities when you're here— we've had absolutely scorching weather, which is unusual for this country, but the facilities where you can rest your dog up in a cool area and you can Water, you know, everything is just brilliant. I really can't say enough how good it is.

When did you first kind of inquire with us? How long ago?

Was probably about 2 or 3 months ago, weren't it?

I—

yeah, his problem started during his adolescence, and I'd already looked at your video, your videos and, uh, podcasts and things.

Yeah.

And I mentioned it to you, didn't I, Sarah? Yeah. Because we, we had thoughts about, or Sarah especially had thoughts about looking for help, for professional help.

Mm-hmm.

Which is what we needed it a lot more than what we thought we did.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we looked at everything, didn't we? Yeah. And we looked at all the reviews, we looked at absolutely everything and it, and we just knew it was here. We had to come here. Yeah, that was, that was not debatable, were it? It was here.

No, and like I say, I was skeptical, but not anymore. It works.

It really works.

What you're doing works.

And where are you most looking forward to taking him or doing with him?

For me personally, I'm really, really now looking forward to taking him for a walk because I've never, I've not been able to do it since you were a puppy.

Anywhere in particular?

Everywhere. I'm gonna get him everywhere.

Yeah, fair enough.

I'm going to the pub. Yeah, definitely going to the pub now because that, that has really opened up for us now. Yeah.

You know, what I need you to do is you're gonna go and do that this weekend.

Yeah.

And take as many videos and pictures and send them to Tony, and then we'll put them live because this podcast won't be up for a couple of weeks.

Yeah.

So we'll ping them up now over screen of you know, what you're doing with him. Yeah, yeah, no wonder.

Yeah, we'll definitely be doing that.

And I'm sure I, I thought— I've never put myself as being a, a dog trainer, but I, I could get a decent, uh, sort of obedience level out of a dog that we needed. But the, the fact that I just couldn't manage I felt like we were failing him because he's a fantastic dog with a brilliant temperament. It was just this, this one problem. Well, actually, we've cleared quite a few problems, haven't we?

Yeah. Can I just point out there? Because it's actually probably not the dog that's the problem. I think it were me that was the problem.

No, us.

And you've had to train me, really. And that's hard. It really is hard because I'm untrainable. I'm more of the dog, actually. So, you know, brilliant, brilliant work from you all. Really, really, really brilliant.

All the instructors, everybody's been fantastic.

Really have.

Everybody's approachable.

Yeah.

Uh, there's been no— nothing has been too much trouble for any of you.

No.

And, and the fact that you, you've been put at ease, haven't you? And, and you've been Not pushed but guided through it!

Oh no, boundaries have been pushed and I've not been able to breathe—

There was a little bit of pushing at one point, that's funny!

And I've not been able to relax at all, but the last couple of days I've really sort of relaxed into it and I'm not that person anymore. I'm completely different. So yeah, it's absolutely truly excellent. And amazing and emotional.

When you go back to where you, where you normally go, that you'll have a, you'll have a blip or two, but just make sure you fix it then, set the precedent, and it'll be grand.

Yeah, well, I have spoke to one of the instructors and I said, are we all right to go to the, the area where the most triggers were, which is walking down the streets?

Yep.

And, uh, straight away, and yeah, no problem. And we're equipped for it. Yep, we're absolutely equipped for it. And it's Brilliant. It's good balanced training. And anybody thinking about doing it, I would, I would just urge anybody to, to try it. You know, you, you, you offered a guarantee. If we can't have your dog sat in a pub by end of week with all other dogs, who else would offer that guarantee?

Exactly. Absolutely. I mean, I were I was petrified, I must admit. And I thought, I really honestly thought that this was the end of the line. I really thought that we would have to make a decision that we couldn't or didn't want to make because that was really the final, the final, final end for us because we couldn't deal with it. We couldn't cope with it.

Our lifestyle, it needs to be right. And you've got, you've got a responsibility to everybody else sharing the park, everybody sharing the streets, especially with such a big dog. You've got that responsibility to be an ambassador for your dog.

And I would, I would certainly recommend anybody at all with a problem, no matter how big or small, if they are invested in that dog, then they certainly need help and that they certainly need the help I would 100% recommend them to come to YCA without a doubt, without a shadow of a doubt.

Yeah, you can try anything you want. I tried everything, all different types of things, and I couldn't have done it. I really couldn't have done it.

Cheers.

We're like proud parents.

Yeah, good.

Yeah, you've done good.

Good.

I just can't stop looking at his bloody head. I know, it's massive, isn't it? I'm like drumsticks, like, stop, come out.

I can't stop staring at it.

Big old dog.

It is when he actually bowls you over, twists your kneecap round.

Yeah, but you can see now, he's 19 months old. This breed don't reach maturity properly till at least 2 years old.

Yeah.

And he's laid like an old timer.

He's so tired. I bet he's been sleeping all night, hasn't he?

Yeah.

Yeah, but even this, this is behavior that we didn't get before. Yeah, let alone the reactivity. Yeah, yeah, being a calm, confident, settled dog, and that's what, that's what we're walking away with.

Good stuff.

They've had all microphones over it. They've been jumping up at you all and acting stupid.

Well, they were day one.

Yeah, they were day one.

Was it?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I mean The transformation is absolutely incredible, but all credit to you. We've got a dog that now, you know, is worth every penny.

Yeah.

How many times did we touch the lead?

My lead?

Yeah.

My lead? The dog's lead?

Yeah, the dog's lead.

Neither of us. None. Yeah. Never.

So don't, don't miss the part where you credit yourself.

Yeah, I agree with that. Your confidence has grown massively. Absolutely hugely. I was at a point, like I said, this has been 6 months, it's been building and building and building, and I was at the point where I didn't think that Sarah would ever hold the dog's lead ever again.

And I thought I'd never hold him again. I thought I'd never be out walking him again, ever, or doing anything with him, to be fair. But now I've got— it's opened up to us again.

It's like a fucking lion.

It's just so big. He's massive, isn't he? And he's really heavy as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, it's— it really has opened up for us now and we can do anything.

Yeah, yeah. Moving forward from now, it's like I said, it's not just changed the dog, it's changed our lives.

It has, yeah.

That's how serious it really is to us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Get straight on it this weekend then. Keep the momentum up.

Definitely.

Don't have any days off, just go for it tomorrow and make use of it.

And I go tonight.

Yeah, yeah, do it.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, well, he's— yeah, do it.

Beautiful.

Yeah, but going back to the weather that we've had, all the staff have made sure that the dogs come first. The health and well-being of the dogs is paramount, which is same again. Obviously there's rumors about other trainers that maybe not, not so careful. Well, obviously I don't want to name names, but, but the dogs Well-being has been paramount for everybody.

It's been number one, aren't it?

Yeah. So you get proper breaks for toileting the dog, the drinking, uh, drink, making sure fluids are going on, making sure they've been kept out at sun, keeping like—

oh, they've been kept cool.

Yeah, this, this week especially, sessions probably starts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, starting early so we're not hitting the main sun. And, and all the welfare has been there, moving, leaving shorter training sessions, uh, so that the dogs aren't stressing, getting heat stressed and things. And it's—

I actually think he wants to live here now because he actually got comfy and he's actually took me to the crate. So he knows where he's going and he likes going in there and he wants to stay.

Yeah, yeah, good boy.

Sounds all right. Well, thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Oh, did I say— this is way off topic. HMRC rang me today whilst I was on the way from Temple Newsam. Did you know this yet?

No.

And it's an 0300 number, but I'm in the van. I'm like, fuck it, I'll answer it. I don't know what it is. So I answer it and the dude's like, oh, this is HMRC. I'm like, all right. And he's like, are you okay to go through some security questions? And I was like, no, you rang me. Yeah. And he's like, well, what do you mean? I was like, well, you could be fucking fraudulent, couldn't you? And he was like, yeah, I suppose so. And he was like, but I did ring the main number and I spoke to Freddie. And I was like, if I was fraudulent, that's exactly what I would say. Nice. And he's like, yeah, but I'm not though. I was like, oh, fuck off, mate. Like, you just can say that. Like, in all due respect, if you are genuine, I'm sorry, but This is no way to conduct, like, how you— what you want to do. Anyway, fucking, we came back, I Googled the number, it did say potentially fraudulent. I was like, yeah, fucking nailed it. Half an hour later, Swizzy rings me laughing his nut off. Have you heard a phone call from H&M? And it was like, I was like, yeah. And he goes I'll let go then.

Swizzy is our accountant, by the way.

So they fucking basically got up. We're clearly not gonna be able to speak to them, are we?

No.

We're gonna have to try a different route. He was like, it was all genuine. I was like, but you, from my perspective, like, and I told him what had happened. He was like, yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.

What did they want?

We made a wrong payment.

All right, that's good.

Just the wrong value of payment. Not like we didn't have it. It's all sorted now.

That's good.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, tiny little funny anecdote of the day. It made my day though, sticking it to the man on that.

Yeah, fuck them. Fuck do you think they are? Pass the sign over there because I haven't given him a shout out in a while. Anyway, you want a canine dick? Oh fuck, not a canine dick. A wooden dick spoon. No, we don't have tiramisu.

Fuck do you mean?

Why is it always my responsibility? What sort of fucking balanced relationship is that? Could have a, yeah, we could have a tip-top, yeah. Yeah, yes please, yeah.

One day when I'm not exponentially poor, I'm gonna speak to this man.

Yeah, nice, you should do. Oh, thanks, mate.

Here's a dog whip.

Or if you want a G-Wagon or Lamborghini for a Vauxhall Corsa price. I know that was false advertising.

Yeah, I don't know. I think everyone knows you're not entirely serious.

You wanna give Mado a ring.

You spend 99.9% of the podcast serious, you're allowed to do 0.1% where maybe you're just joking about that. Yeah, not joking.

But no, he will sort you out if you are after a decent motor. You're based in the UK. Oh dear, you best not have brought lemon. Right, I don't want the lemon.

I mean, the last two.

God, yeah, Susie's been there. Remember when Susie ordered lemon sorbet when we was down south?

Yeah, but she didn't want to.

I know, I know, that's the thing. You, you could see as she ordered it.

What?

I love lemon sorbet.

No, you don't. No one does.

You love lemon.

Yeah.

How do you open these?

What do you mean you've never had a Tip Top?

Mmm, I don't recall having one.

Probably after your time, to be fair.

Just biting it.

Oh, fuck. Yeah. Oh, fuck. I had 4 yesterday. It's so hot, by the way.

It's nice though. Temperature check. Temperature check.

It's absolutely lovely.

38, it said in Tony's car at the cruise car park. Fuck. 31.

31 right now in here. He's got his feet out though.

Have we got a thunderstorm? Oh, I got a video of, um, should I put a video up with Alex in a thunderstorm?

Yeah.

It's quite amusing.

Looking like Thor. Yeah.

If you're gonna go though.

Yeah, it's a good way to go.

It's a great way to go. But then everyone was suggesting that either Tonya and I were gonna get struck, 'cause she's got a metal spine and I've got a bit of titanium in me, like a bit of metal, conducting metal and that.

Yeah, and karma.

And karma. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. In which case, I'm probably fucked.

Has the witch sorted out your financial situation yet or no?

No, I'm poo-piled. Yeah. Supposed to have heard a week ago. Alright.

Fuck, these are really good.

This is nice.

Yeah, there's gonna be so much cut out there. We're gonna start that segment with a full Tip Top and then finish the segment.

Look, hang on.

Finished.

Tip Top.

Oh, fuck, I've thrown it all down.

Why's it called a Tip Top? Mine's called a Freeze Pop.

That's the OG name, is a Tip Top.

Is it? I can only imagine. Here you go then.

Go on.

Is this positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement?

There is no positive reinforcement without negative reinforcement. I'm satiating my thirst, my hunger, and my heat in it, but I also want it.

I think people— yeah, yeah, the line is blurred. Is it really positive reinforcement? Because anyone on the surface level would put this down as positive.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Mm. Yeah, because it's consumable, people are like, "Oh, clearly it has to be positively important." I would do things I normally wouldn't do to attain more of these. Which isn't much.

Yeah.

It's a very short list. To get one of these.

In fact, you may have to tell me after the cast, One of those things might be, because I don't know.

I can't think of one right now. Yeah, that's true, to be fair. I'm trying to think of one myself. Anyway, anyway, I think an average person would do something they regularly wouldn't do to attain one of them.

Yeah.

And I would put forward to you that it's not through positive reinforcement.

Yeah.

But the circumstances in which we are here today—

yeah, I wouldn't want one of them on a regular day, really.

They wouldn't appeal to me at all, I don't think. No, but that right there was phenomenal because it relieved a lot. Really, it actually shut you up for a little bit, which relieved even more. I know, it felt good in my mouth. My mouth felt really dry.

It felt—

yeah, that was good. I can't believe there's only— that's my first one. God, there's no more left.

Cola ones are the best.

Interesting, one of the dogs on the boot camp a little bit funny with people. Lady was saying if you give her water, she'd be your best mate.

Amazing. Yeah, do you think she almost died of thirst at one point?

Could be, or at least felt rather parched.

Yeah, if it's been like conditioned through negative reinforcement and then after the fact you use it even though the circumstances— like, okay, dog almost dies of thirst.

Yeah.

Stranger with a beard comes along and gives the dog a drink.

Yeah.

Dog's like, fuck, you saved my life. Negative reinforcement. Yeah. The dog goes to the stranger, so that's the behaviour reinforces going towards. And then therefore after, the dog finds either men with beards really reinforcing.

Yep.

Going towards men with beards.

Yep.

Or And then this is a, you know, classical versus operant. Or will be reinforced, will have, will feel differently about anyone that gives a water like that dog.

Yep.

Is it positive reinforcement acting there after the fact or negative? Let us know, guys, in the comments.

You still say it's always both. It could be both.

Yeah.

I can't find, uh, something that's positively reinforcing that doesn't actively ask every relief of, um, training developers that— yeah, nice, go on, give it to me.

Um, they've never really come— well, you know the best one with the drugs, right? Yeah, the first time, but I only count it because the first time I've used it. And then a lady came up with— the fuck was it?

Give the people the context, please, mate.

So if you if you're looking for an example of something that is exclusively positive reinforcement only, I never— doesn't relieve anything. So you can't use food because you're satiating hunger, most likely.

Yeah.

You can't use play because there's an innate drive to play. There's a two, like, obvious things that people think are nicey-nicey, um, and I'm not saying they're not nice. Like, so what could be only positive where it's not satiating a need? The guy came up with a good one whereby the use of drugs in dogs— I think it's different with us because you— there's curiosity, which is a sense of pressure.

Yeah.

So if you tell me that heroin is the fucking shit, my curiosity might start creating pressure that I then relieve by jabbing myself with heroin.

Yep.

So I think it's different with humans, but with a dog who can't conceptualize the feeling of a drug— yeah, something that elicited euphoria in that dog the first time of use could maybe be positive reinforcement only. But then also, what if it's, it's just a feeling, right? So there's a difference between reward and positive reinforcement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's something that can just be good but doesn't change the likelihood of the behavior.

Yeah, surely there's got to be repetition, obviously, to it.

Exactly. And then, and then you can't repeat it because once there's a lack of the drug, then you satiate the need for the drug.

Yeah.

So I, I like, I, I love, I loved his train of thought. Yeah, but I didn't let him have it.

Go on then, what was the other option?

I can't remember, that's like fucking infuriating. I know, yeah, brain damage.

Try and give us one and we'll actively reply in the comments and tell you where it's relieving. Give us your exclusive positive reinforcer. Sex don't work because you're relieving horniness. Treats and snacks don't work, you're relieving craving.

Um, yep.

What other stuff?

Toblerone.

Toblerone.

Oh God, I love Toblerone.

I know, I'm in pain right now not having Toblerone. If I were to have Toblerone, that pain would go away.

Oh yeah, it'd be so much relief.

Yeah, it's great, isn't it? Can quickly become punitive. Not punitive because I don't—

well, if you get— if you eat enough, if you're truly, truly, truly full, it's like, I'm like at Christmas because I'm a gluttonous pig. I have been full to the point of like nearly vomiting and then someone offers me—

I've done that loads.

And then Nanny goes, I think I might have bulimia. Do you want another choccy? And I'm like, what? Get out of my fucking face. It's you. Yeah. Oh, I couldn't hear nothing. Sick. Horrible.

We've done some eating bouts on our trips away, to be fair.

Yeah.

Yeah. Is there anything you have eaten to the point that you just fucking can't eat it anymore?

I've eaten to the point of vomiting before.

Yeah, I do that all the time.

That's horrible.

Do you?

You do have bulimia.

All the time. It's not intentional though.

All the time.

You know what, it might be. Like, let me know if this is bulimia. So I think it is.

Oh no.

So I'll—

Jacob's got an eating disorder.

Yeah, maybe. I'll eat so much that I'll feel sick, but I just don't fight the vomit and just let it happen. If anything, like, I encourage it a bit. See, But with the intention to just eat more there and then.

Uh, yeah, you've told me that before. I didn't realize it was a regular thing. I think the regularity is the thing that makes it a problem.

Maybe once every couple of months. I don't care about like, oh, I'm gonna do it because I want to look skinny. I want to do it so I can eat more food.

Horrible.

Because I might not have tasted everything.

Yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? But being sick for me is like a full body horrible experience.

I'm basically like, come on, second fucking I've induced vomiting after dinner to eat ice cream. All right, there you go.

Yeah, fair enough.

So tell me if that's an eating disorder. Is that just extra greedy fat fuckness?

I think it's a problem.

Yeah, no, yeah, fair enough. You know, it is.

I don't know if it's like— if there's an official name for it, but it's definitely not—

It's gotta be like binge eating or something, isn't it?

Yeah, it's gotta be.

I don't know.

No.

Should I stop it?

I don't see what—

I don't see why not. I don't see why not. Right, I'll keep doing it then.

Yeah, I don't see it like it— yeah, once every couple months, because it's when you do it regularly, don't it fuck up the teeth?

Yeah, because you really are sick.

I like fucking— mate, honestly, I really struggle to be sick, but when I am, it's like a full body convulsive fucking eyes coming out of my head. It's awful.

Oh, right.

Yeah, Susie's the same. So if I, if at any cost I can not—

I just think about Kelly's feet and I'm instantly sick.

Yeah, that would make sense.

That's all you need to do.

I, I took down— so last week I was down there. I don't know if you know.

I was with you.

Go on.

Do you know if I was down there? You kind of were and you weren't.

Yeah, yeah.

But anyway, I ordered some of my favorite non-alcoholic beers to the center of the Erdinger.

Yes.

Stuck a bunch of them in the fridge and I left them there because obviously we got a couple of hombres down there this week and Kels is there. And, um, I think they went to the beach or something on either Monday or Tuesday and she was like, these are fucking game-changing. She's like, literally 10 out of 10.

Yeah, nice.

Um, she was like, this might actually help prevent me drinking.

Nah.

And I was like, no, it won't, it won't, it won't.

But I'm glad that maybe at least—

why do alcoholics drink?

So much? Like, what's the mechanism?

I think it must— this is a rabbit hole.

Is it?

Well, this might upset a few people. I think, like, initially people drink to try and cope with stuff, don't they?

Yeah, so like relieving—

but I'm pretty sure you get— if you're a real alcoholic, you get physiological dependence. I think you do. Yeah, I think you get dependence on it, and if they stop it, they get fucked up. Withdrawals.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is then fucked in it, right?

Yeah, yeah. You ever have morphine? Oh yeah, you can see why heroin addicts do it, can't you? Oh yeah, some good shit. Yeah, like real good shit.

You get one of those little pressy buttons with the—

No, I didn't. I had a Turkish guy, but I tell you what, I love that Turkish man.

You've told me this. Yeah, and that can only be a bit like your water bowl for the dog. Yeah, yeah.

Every time this guy, Turkish guy, come into the room, it was just a fat Turkish bloke. All right, that's all he was.

Hey, balding. You mean all he was? He can be all he can be. Even if he's overweight and Turkish, that's fine.

Yeah, I know it's not my regular type, is all I'm saying.

Not your regular type. You probably tried it, but yeah, it wasn't for me.

It's not where I'd go back to.

Fair enough.

Anyway, J-Rod, give everything a go. Give everything a go once.

Yeah, fair enough.

You can't knock it.

No, you can't.

We told the broccoli thing, haven't we? Yeah, right. Um, and my God, I was obviously having a procedure done.

Yep.

And— not that one, that one didn't work.

Damn it.

I was having an extension of some sorts.

Yeah.

No, I wasn't. I'd want a refund if I did.

Compensation.

Yeah.

God.

What was—

what?

That's all we could do. Swear you've removed some.

Yeah, swear it.

Or is it, give it back?

Yeah, come on. And, um, so they're working away, and then every now and then— I'm conscious— every now and then this guy comes in and administers morphine into the drip, and it gives you— I don't want to— there's a danger of creating a heroin addict here on this podcast of listener.

Yeah, yeah.

But it gives you a half decent feeling, let's say.

Yeah, pretty euphoric is the word I would use. Yeah.

Yeah. And it happened maybe 6 to 8 times. But with each time that man walked into the room, I had a true I am in love with you feeling in his presence. I was touching his arm going, I love you. Like, I love you so much. And I still feel good about seeing his face in my brain today.

Really?

Yeah.

That's crazy.

I know. He could probably whip me off.

Fair enough.

Not whip me off. I mean, like, whip me off my— Whisk me off my feet.

No, no.

Oh, I would. I would. He could do whatever he wanted to me. I am his. I am his.

Interesting that that's where my head went.

So, if you're listening, buddy, again, not my usual type, but you've conditioned me.

You got a chance.

Yeah. And that's why I think prostitutes fall in love with their pimps.

I feel like we've spoken about this. Yeah, I feel like we do.

Is it porn types again?

It's 'cause it's a little bit like Benno, isn't it? Oh yeah, all tied together, mate.

It all is. This is all dog training. Yeah, that's why, that's why Kader don't play no bitches. You've seen the other guys?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Makes sense. All smacked up in that. Hey, you want some brown, they call it?

Yeah.

So if you want for someone to fall in love with you, buy them heroin.

Nice.

Yeah, classically conditioning.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, it's not ethical in any way, shape, or form, but widely available.

Probably not that expensive.

Yeah, but my God, does it work.

Never mind the fucking—

ask the Turkish guy hanging out the back of me.

Never mind the witch. Yeah, find a heroin dealer.

You want a Turkish guy with morphine, or just your local heroin dealer. Yeah, and you will be in love. And it reduces your standards too. You know how many Turkish guys there are? Every barber's I walk into, I'm barred up.

Yeah, fair enough. It's a real actual uncut from real life.

Do you know how many Turkish barbers there are in Leeds?

Yeah, a lot, like.

Yeah, I don't know how many gay ones, but, but my point is find something in abundance.

Yep.

Give them heroin to give you. Have them give you heroin enough and that will become your new type.

Okay.

Yeah, fair enough.

Because I like, I like girls with big bums and thighs.

Yep.

And other certain features. And Turkish blokes now.

Yeah.

One's a lot harder to find than the other, is all I'm saying. I wonder if you just— you've got a bunch of heroin, this is gonna— and you've got loads of pictures up of this genre of person.

Oh, okay, right.

And you just fucking boom boom swipe, boom boom swipe. Would you eventually Yeah, I reckon you would. I think you would too.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Anyway, make of that what you will. Good luck cutting that one, Poppy. Yeah, I don't think it was all like bad, was it?

No, there wasn't any bad bits, was there?

No, no. Yeah, so I think it's a good point to wrap up, do you? Yeah, classical conditioning we've covered.

Yep. Heroin, snorting, stop behaviors preferentially. Yeah, positive reinforcement doesn't exist. Yeah, I don't know if that was exactly what we said, but yeah, no, it is.

It doesn't, doesn't exist. Heroin's good if you want to fall in love.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Just be careful. And if you want to eat more food, simply think of Kelly's feet and two fingers down. You gotta get right down to the—

yeah, like you get a bite stick Really get in there. Gag reflex.

Yeah, well, after spending a lot of time in Turkish barbers, what's actually happened is I don't have much of a gag reflex anymore. It's much harder to make myself be sick now. So there is downsides, I guess. I'm like, I'm just like, I'm elbow deep.

Can't do it, can't do it.

Way too much practice.

Yeah, okay.

You know, thanks to the morphine guy.

Yeah, fair enough.

Anyway, I'm going for a haircut.

Bye, Ian.

Bye, Ian.