A Man's Health: Crisis, Choice, and Courage | S01 E10

Welcome back to When Kings Unite, the podcast dedicated to masculinity as medicine. My name is Chris, and I'll be your host for this deeply personal and, I think, profoundly important episode. Our divine masculine principles that we talk about on this podcast call us to be strong yet loving, deeply present, and embodying worthiness. But what happens when the king is challenged? What happens when a crisis shatters our sense of invincibility? Over the past few weeks, that's what's happened to me. My life was hit by a seismic one-two punch, and these events forced me to really confront the core of men's health, both physical and mental, and the myth that being sick or needing help is a weakness. So today I'm turning the mic on myself. Of course, Freddie, Smith, and Wes are here, and today they're here not just as my co-hosts but also as interviewers, asking questions on behalf of you, our listener. Today's conversation is one about crisis. It's about the courage to choose your own path and the essential truth that asking for help is the strongest thing that a man can do. A man's well-being is foundational to everything that he will do or be in his life. And I think it's about time we talk about it. Are you ready?

Let's go.

Hey, Kings. So good to see you. Thank you so much for joining me today.

You too. Yeah.

Yeah, of course. So, as I mentioned in my intro, I've had a lot going on. I'll pull the curtain back a little bit on how we produce this podcast. We started recording our episodes probably earlier midsummer, right guys? And we've had quite a few that have been released as of the date of this recording, but we haven't really recorded anything since these events have happened in my life. And so this is a chance to kind of share what's been going on with me. So I mentioned that there's a kind of a, a one-two punch. I'll start with the first one first, and it's kind of a big one. Uh, I'll just come right out with it. I have cancer. Um, I have oropharyngeal squamous cell carcinoma. I got really good at saying that. I had to get good at saying it. It's a mouthful. Uh, but it's, it's throat cancer. Um, and so I'd like to share a little bit kind of about how I found out that I have it. Um, and then about, you know, where I'm going from here, kind of my, my choices in terms of how I'm approaching to be with this, this cancer journey. So, um, I, um, Late last year, I had a bout of walking pneumonia. It was the first time in my life. I'd never had walking pneumonia before. Oh, that's new. And, um, as that was clearing up and, uh, I was, you know, on antibiotics and everything, I noticed that my lymph nodes were swollen. I'm like, well, that's of course, like, that's normal when you have that sort of a, when you have that sort of a, um, condition going on. And, um, but as I was feeling my lymph nodes in my neck, it was that something just felt different about them. I don't know. They just felt, they did. It didn't feel like they were just, um, swollen. They felt kind of hard almost. So I went to my doctor and she could tell that I was, you know, I was nervous about it. So I don't know if she was just like placating me. It's like, oh, this guy's just nervous. We'll order a couple of tests, did some blood work. That all came back fine. Did some ultrasounds on my lymph nodes. They came back slightly enlarged, but hey, I just had pneumonia, right? So nothing to worry about. Sent me home. That was in probably the second week in January when all this was kind of the determination that was made. So fast forward over the months that followed, I just noticed they just didn't go away, like these swollen lymph nodes. And in fact, they started to slowly get a little bit bigger. So I went back to my doctor, sent a note in late July, and I went back, I don't know, first, second week in August to have another round of ultrasounds done. And this time they came back as like, whoa, your ultrasounds are about 4x the normal size of lymph nodes. And they also noticed microcalcifications on there. Which is a big red flag. It's like a fingerprint, as I come to find out through all my, my Google-fu, all my internet research you immediately do when you get this sort of news, right? Um, is kind of a classic thumbprint of thyroid cancer. So that was a shock. I was like, oh, obviously there's no test results back yet. Like there's no, nothing definitive, but just based on the imaging, I was like, oh shit, I got to start You know, thinking about, did all my research about what this looks like. Of course, my doctor saw the images and they said, okay, we want to have you in for a thyroid ultrasound. I was like, well, okay, that makes sense. They're calling me in for that because my Google research says that this is probably, or, you know, could be thyroid cancer. So they did another ultrasound on my thyroid and it came back showing 2 kind of suspicious little nodules on my thyroid. I was like, okay, well, that kind of confirms And then the next step, they said, okay, we need to bring you in for a CT scan and a biopsy, which I did on, you know, 2 consecutive days, a CT scan one day and the biopsy the next day. And I got the CT results back first, and it was actually really surprising. I had been really preparing myself, doing all the research for how thyroid cancer gets addressed, which is actually pretty straightforward. They just do a thyroidectomy, they cut it out, and The mop-up effort afterward because of how thyroid cells work is actually pretty straightforward. So I was fully mentally prepared for that and then got the CT results back and it was a real curveball. I was fully expecting to see, oh, guess what? You've got thyroid cancer. But it turns out on the CT, my thyroid was completely clear. Whatever they saw on the ultrasound must have been just a ghost in the machine. But instead, they saw what they called a lesion at the base of my tongue. Uh, was, was showing up there as well as the, you know, of course the 2 enlarged lymph nodes, one on, you know, on the left side and the right side of my neck. So I was like, okay, well that's a little weird. And then I did some more Google-fu on that. It was like, oh, this is looking more like, you know, squamous cell carcinoma, throat cancer.

Right.

And the more research I did on that, the more freaking, you know, scared I got. Okay, this is much more serious than thyroid cancer. So That was kind of waiting for the biopsy results to come back. And, um, and then I got that phone call from my doctor that said that confirming that's exactly what it was, um, was throat cancer. Um, and that was tough. Uh, it was, it was really emotional. It was like a ton of bricks. And the first, you know, within a week or so, I had meetings set up with You know, the oncology team with my medical provider. I had a whole bunch of other kind of ancillary sessions set up. Treatment for throat cancer is brutal. Like, the standard of care is, is they don't do surgery. It's kind of hard to operate in that part of the body. Like, how do you get a sharp knife down there at the back of the tongue? There's so many things you have to avoid there. So the They've pretty much stopped doing surgery for this sort of cancer, and instead they, they do chemo radiation, concurrent, uh, radiation bolstered by, by chemotherapy. Um, on the plus side, my, my biopsy came back what they call p16 positive, which means that the origin of the cancer is viral. So it's not a lifestyle thing. If, if people with throat cancer that it's because of a lifetime of smoking or heavy drinking. It's that if that causes the cancer, it's much more, it's much harder to get rid of. But if it's viral in nature, specifically in my case, it's HPV related. It's the, the doctors were saying, yeah, under radiation, the tumor basically melts like butter. Like it's really responsive to the treatment, which sounds encouraging until I started doing all the research on Um, what does irradiating your head and neck, 33 sessions of radiation, what does that do to you? And man, it is so ugly. Um, the treatment, the course of treatment itself is brutal. Imagine trying to swallow while you have the worst sunburn of your life inside your throat.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, like statistically, 2 out of 3 patients who go through this have to get a feeding tube because they literally can't get enough calories in.

Mm-hmm.

To maintain their weight. Um, there's, you know, physical therapy for swallowing that I would start before treatment. It's like all, it's, it's brutal. Um, absolutely brutal. And you know what, if that's all it was, I could suck it up and do it. Um, but the more I learned about the, the permanent impacts of, of irradiating the head and neck, of it completely nukes your salivary glands, which don't come back. So for the rest of my life, I would have permanent dry mouth. Sure, I walk around with a water bottle, whatever, to keep my mouth, but saliva is so important for dental health, right? So people who have this procedure, 10 years later, their teeth start falling out and they have to go get implants or cosmetic surgery and thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in oral care. There is a probability, not guaranteed, but a high probability of permanent hearing loss in certain ranges of frequencies. There is again, a high probability of permanent loss of taste because of all the radiation passing through your tongue, right? You lose some component of taste. Not to mention radiation. We know radiation causes cancer.

Right?

Exposure to radiation is what causes cancer. So it'll cure me today. And then 20 years from now, what happens?

Hmm.

Right? Is all— I'll have some other— something else will come up, you know, because of this radiation exposure that I willingly put myself into today. So I took all these things under consideration and I'll tell you, it was, it was really, really tough. Tough sledding in terms of wrestling with this, grappling with, you know, a 90 to 95% chance of being cured, like this cancer, my throat cancer being completely eradicated, and dealing with all those side effects for the rest of my life, like the quality of life being severely impacted. I just turned 48 years old. You know, it's like I've got a lot of life ahead of me, and is this the life that I want to live ahead of me? And if I have to do it, Fine. But somehow I was called to look at what other options might there be for walking this journey with my cancer. So I started doing a lot of research into naturopathic or integrative courses of treatment. I found a really cool place in Phoenix. I guess Arizona's health laws are different than the other 49 states in terms of what they'll allow. companies to do. It's a little bit more permissive there. And so there's a great place that I found in Scottsdale, Arizona called Envida, and they focus on metronomic low-dose chemo. So not massive doses, but more frequent, but smaller doses kind of spread out over more time. So you still get the same chemo, the same total application of chemotherapy. It's just spread out over a longer time and in lower doses to really minimize the impact. And they support it with a bunch of nutraceuticals, excuse me, and natural ways of bolstering your immune system and maintaining your vigor and your health so it doesn't just absolutely crush you like normal chemo does.

Yeah.

They've got some other really cool procedures for directly injecting a tumor site with chemotherapy as opposed to not just putting it systemically, but to actually have an acute application of it. Really cool stuff they're doing down there that are not part of standard of care. That you won't get at any sort of traditional or conventional medical office. So I'm still keeping that in my pocket as plan B. If I need to do that, I'm going to do that. But as we sit here today, I decided that my first course of treatment was going to be 4 weeks, 5 days a week of naturopathic treatments. So it's infusion-based. So I'm getting poked every day, 5 days a week. I'm getting an IV put in. I thought about getting a PICC line and ultimately decided to just do peripheral IVs each time of alternating highly oxidative and antioxidative days. So, kind of alternating a day on and a day off of, man, high-dose vitamin C and artesanate and DCA and poly-MVA and blue methylene and curcumin. So many things that are on the natural or repurposed medications or the naturopathic side of things in terms of the injections. Oh, blood ozonation. They literally draw out, I don't know, a pint or so of my blood, and then they ozonate it. They mix it with ozone, and then they put that in my body, do like 5 kind of passes of that to get, you know, highly oxygenate my blood. And the whole point is to really bolster the body's immune system to get activate the T cells and the natural killer cells to, you know, have more of them around and to have them in a high state of activity so that then they, they will seek out and go find and attack the cancer. And it's also to just generally support my, my body's healing process as well as cellular mitochondrial function. So I'm 3 weeks into that 4-week regimen as we're recording this. It's been a grind. Um, the treatment center is over an hour away from my house, so driving there and back each day takes its toll, as well as the treatments themselves. And, uh, I also started, um, a really intense keto diet. And I don't know if anyone, you all, or if any of our listeners have ever done keto. Um, It's not easy to do when you're doing it. I don't want to say as a lifestyle or, you know, people do it for, to lose weight or for particular, you know, bodybuilding or whatever. There's certain reasons why people get into it. But from a therapeutic perspective, I have to go really deep into ketosis. And the whole point there is to starve the cancer of its energy. Cancer cells don't, don't process, they don't metabolize oxygen like healthy cells do.

Hmm.

They metabolize glucose through fermentation. So it's completely different energy. So the way that they make energy, a normal cell will use 1 molecule of oxygen, process it, and turn it into about 30 units of energy called ATP. I don't know if you remember this from biology class, 30 units of ATP from 1 oxygen molecule. 1 glucose molecule only makes 2 ATP.

Wow.

Right. So these cancer cells really suck up so much glucose. That's what they feed on. And they need so much of it in order to survive and to thrive. So guess what? I'm going to starve it. I'm going to give it no glucose. I'm, you know, really high on dietary fats and proteins and no more than 25 total grams of carbs per day, which is really including fiber, which is really hard to do. And it sounds great. Oh, guess what? You get to eat bacon for every meal. Yay. Like, who wouldn't want that? After about 3 days, it is freaking brutal. Like, it's stomach-turning to look at a plate of bacon and be like, oh my God, I have to eat this now. But I'm committed to it, right? Because I want to attack this thing from all sides, all natural sides, right? Is get those pro-oxidants, get those antioxidants, get get those ROSs, reactive oxygen species is what they're called, generated inside my body to kind of literally break down and induce cell death in the cancer cells and in the tumor. And I'm going to starve it from all this, weaken it by not giving it any food. So that's where I'm at right now. That's, that's my journey so far. And once this course of treatment is done, I'm going to— Take a pause. I'm going to do some testing. I did some baseline testing before I started. I'm going to do another round of blood tests. And after several weeks, I'm working with my doctor to see if I get another round of imaging done just to see where I'm at. I will say the anecdotal data, like what I can observe, is that I feel my lymph nodes in my neck. Much smaller than they were. I feel them shrinking. The one on the left side of my neck, I can barely even feel it anymore. And the one on my right side of my neck, which was always the larger of the two, is still visible. I can still palpate it. I can still feel it, but man, it's so much smaller than it was. So that's, for me, it's an encouraging sign that, hey, something's happening there, right? That there's progress being made. Granted, those are the secondary sites, right? The primary tumor. is in my tongue. I can't feel that. I can't palpate that. But there are tests for checking circulating tumor cells, which my baseline, by the way, was zero, which means that I have no circulating tumor cells in my bloodstream. Very low risk right now of it being metastatic. It's not spreading to other parts of my body. It's remaining localized, which is great news. And my methylation score, my TMC is what they call it, but it's basically they can test the blood for the byproducts of this fermentation process that the cancer cells do, was also pretty low. That score was 455, which sounds like a lot, but the scale goes up to 40,000, right? So anything under 1,000 is considered non-metastatic localized cancer. And the goal is to get it down, you know, under 10. If it's under 10, it's considered— you're considered to be free of disease. So that's, that's where I was even before I started this treatment. I was at 455, and I'm, I'm curious to see how the tests come back and then how the imaging comes back after a couple of weeks. Man, so that's my story. That's, that's what I've been up to. In terms of my personal health for the past, for the past several weeks.

Yeah.

Thanks, Chris, for sharing all that, man.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for, thanks for holding the space and giving me the space to share it all. I know it's, I know it's a lot. It's been a lot for me and I can only imagine how much it is for you all to sit there and hear it. Of course, you all knew about this before we sat down to record this, but, um, Um, I know it's a lot for you and I thank you for holding the space.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, uh, my experience is that, man, it's super sad for you. Super sad that you have to go through it. And, you know, we've, I think we've all heard this in different chunks and there's even some things that I was like, oh man, like I didn't know all of that information. So it was really cool to hear you talk about it like in one go like that because it really painted the full picture. Um, but yeah, that doesn't change like, you know, how deeply sad I am for you.

Yeah.

And I think you're handling it in such a beautiful way too, man. Like, um, I felt different waves of emotions, but I just like really see you like being with what could be from doing this and fighting through it and like the power that that it takes to get through it and to the other side of what you'll become because of it is pretty, um, I don't know, inspiring, empowering to me. Um, Mm-hmm. Yeah, but it doesn't change how much, like, I'm super sad, you know, that you have to go through it. But I think it's really important that, um, I think what you modeled really well for the world is that, like, you get to talk about it. Um, and I'm really happy that we get to hold you at that too.

Yeah. Thanks, brother. I'm reminded, um, I heard recently, I think it was just a couple of weeks before I got my diagnosis. Um, I heard this really cool thing on a podcast. It was, um, when you ask God for strength, God doesn't give you strength. God gives you the opportunity to be strong. And so, yeah, this is— don't get me wrong, man, especially at the beginning, it was a dark, dark place. I was in my shit. It was so much fear and so much anger and so much confusion. Like, all of the lower vibration energies were just flowing through me. And, you know, ultimately I got to a place of getting quiet and just kind of hearing the call of like, yeah, I'm being called. This is my opportunity to be strong. I'm being called into something here. And that's a big part of my gift here is, and the gift to me in all of this is, you know, my opportunity to grow as a man, my opportunity to grow as a being in my relationship with spirit. in so many different ways. And so, yeah, I'm very present to kind of that reflection. I receive it really well, Smit, and really powerfully. And it's been a journey just to get to this place where I can stand here and have this conversation with you. It's been a lot of ups and downs. Yeah.

Yeah, I get that. And I saw the first stage of it, which—

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you're on the spot path of it.

Yeah, but what, you know what, man, like, I think the cool part is like you've always asked for support throughout all this. Um, yeah, and I've like, I've kept it really dear to my heart, like the way that you ask for support is like send me really good energy. Um, yeah, yeah. And there's been like a lot of ritual ceremonies that I like, I keep you in my heart like all the time. Which I think is something that I'm actually, I'm curious about with you in particular. Like, is it hard to ask for support? Do you want it all the time? Like, how is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

You care about it. Tell us about it. Yeah.

It's, excuse me, it's It's not easy for me to ask for support at all. When I first was introduced to the concept, I don't know, when I first got into men's work and it's like, yeah, what do you need? Like, what would support you? And I'm like, I don't know. What do you mean? Leave me alone. Don't ask me that. You know, because I didn't know. It was— I was so used to— and like, I still think my, my automatic is to, oh, I'll handle this on my own. Like, let me go off by myself and process this and And be with this and be the man and kind of work through it on my own.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it's hard. It's not easy for me. And I've had enough practice since I started doing men's work and self-development, other forms of self-development work, and asking for support and seeing the benefit of it, usually in much less, you know, much lower lower impact scenarios, right? Like the context is usually not quite so big as talking about, you know, cancer. Um, so I had some, but I had some practice in asking for support. And so, yeah, the, my first, the first thing that I did was just go into my turtle shell. I pulled the blankets over my head in my dark room and had my breakdown. You know, for a weekend, it was it was how how I did, and then you know pretty quickly came around and said, "Okay, I need to start rallying some troops." Like I can't. I don't want to try to take this on myself. I want support. I want to be held by my community, by by men and by my wife and by. all the people around me. And so, um, yeah, I think the first thing I did was call you guys. I sent a text out in our, in our group text and said, if anyone is available, I really need some support this morning. And I went for a walk down, um, down on the cliffside overlooking the ocean here where I live in Santa Cruz with you guys on the phone and just kind of talked about it.

Mm-hmm.

And just shared what it was and You know, let the feelings flow. And I'm part of a men's group here in Santa Cruz, and I let everyone know, hey, we meet every other week. And I said, hey guys, the next time we get together, I really need some support. And we all came together. I was hosting that one at my house, as it turns out. So we sat out on my front deck and shared with everyone, you know, what was going on. And so, um, no, it wasn't easy, but I knew it was necessary and beneficial for me. And I'm so glad that I did.

Mm-hmm.

Because I don't know what the fear that we have about asking for support is. Are people gonna think that we're less or that we're weak? Are people gonna laugh at us or kick us when we're down? I don't know what the fear is, but for some reason we're all afraid of it. We're taught to be afraid of it. And man, I just, gotten so much love, so much strength and support, and, um, you know, continued like this nonstop barrage of men checking on me. You guys, um, the people in my men's group, other people that are in my life. I don't go through a day without at least 3 or 4 or 5 texts of, hey man, how you doing? Thinking about you, sending you good vibes.

Right.

And I'm not able to respond to all of them or engage with All of them, but, um, man, it's so appreciated every time. It just like, I feel that I'm not alone when I, when I get that support. Um, and it's so helpful. Anyone will tell you, doctors, previous patients, survivors, um, anyone will tell you that your mental disposition, your outlook is one of your biggest weapons, if not the biggest weapon when it comes to your journey with cancer. with cancer, right? Having, being positive, having joy in your life, having love in your life. And I'm really taking that to heart. And that's why I think it's so important for me to ask for that support, um, and to get it is because it helps me keep that mental disposition that keeps my internal energy aligned with a positive outcome moving forward.

Yeah. Thanks for speaking to it. And I think the thing that I was really trying to Like, look at it as like, what is the benefit? You know, like you're going through obviously something that is pretty dark, pretty depthful in like what could happen in your life as a drastic result of having cancer.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it, for me, like what I got out of it, it like, it keeps my head afloat or it can keep my head afloat if the times that I do ask for support. And yeah, like I said, man, I've really noticed you take that on so beautifully. You've modeled that so well for like so many people. Um, yeah, I think you can do it.

Thanks, brother.

Yeah, I echo all of that. And, um, you know, you— we, we have, um, talked quite a bit in previous episodes about all of these different stories and narratives and myths around, you know, manhood and masculinity and strength and You know, all of these things, and you've sort of spoken into what started coming up for you when you first got that diagnosis. Where are you now, like, emotionally, spiritually?

Hmm.

And what has, like, unearthed for you that sort of debunks Or just like navigating through some of those, a lot of those narratives and stories that I'm sure came up?

Yeah. I feel that I'm in a really, uh, non-descriptive word, good place. Um, but I feel really empowered. I feel like, um, at the beginning, everything was so overwhelming. I felt powerless. I felt, um, Of course, I was feeling all the emotions, right? The fear, contemplating mortality for the first time in my life.

Mm-hmm.

That's not a small thing. Imagining what— it's not dying that I fear, it's the effect that it would have on the people that I love. Like, what would be left behind? what would be left on the table of the things that the person, the man that I want to be and the things that I want to do in my life that would go undone, a life unlived. That was flooding through my mind in those first couple of days. And then I will say that, and I've shared in previous episodes, my relationship with spirit has been a work in progress. My spiritual path has been a bit of a meandering one for several years now. And I've been, in hindsight, I can see that over the past year or so, I've been building tools and practices in my spiritual being. In preparation for this. And once, once I really kind of had that realization, that light bulb went on, I had that download, and I was like, okay, this is when I really get to dive in to what it means to walk with spirit. My, my practice, my spiritual practice, They say there's no atheists in a foxhole, right? My spiritual practice became instant. It was fortified overnight. It was like I wildly committed more than I'd ever committed before to not just various different parts of my spiritual practice in meditation and in clearing and in mantra, but giving it far more meaning. Really not just doing it to do it, but actually living into the practice of walking with spirit. And that's been really, really powerful for me. I find myself more grounded and less tethered, if that makes sense, in my spiritual self now, even as I'm slogging through the grind of treatments. Mm-hmm. Even as I'm still in a place of, you know, I'm still in the thick of it. You know, I feel like I'm on the path. I can see where the end of the tunnel is, but I'm still in the tunnel, you know, and I still feel myself more than I would say probably ever have in my life, really feeling grounded in my spiritual self. So I think part of that I think there's 2 reasons for it. One is, as I shared, having that download and that realization and seeing the need to commit, to really actually commit to spiritual practice and give myself to spirit. And getting the support that I— it comes back to what we were just talking about in support, getting the support that I need. Monica, of course, has been an absolute pillar for me through this. She has been so supportive and willing to call me on my shit. Like, she's been such a powerful mirror and a reflection for me of saying, hey, dummy, look at what you're doing here, right? Is this what you really want to do and want to be? Not from a place of judgment, but from a place of standing for me.

Mm-hmm.

And, oof, I'm so grateful for that. And you men, same thing, right? Of course, I really appreciate your words of love and affirmation and how I feel your energy flowing to me. And you're also willing to, uh, uh, to challenge me when needed and to ask questions even like you're doing now. Um, so, uh, I, I don't know if that answers your question, Freddie, but it really has been an evolution of feeling all the natural flood of feels that you, that happen when you, when a crisis like this comes up.

Hmm.

Um, and then finding ways through community, through spirit to find my footing and to be, to be really clear. Like I feel clear and clean and focused. As I move through this.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for that. It does answer my question. And, you know, I definitely want to— I know you're going to be acknowledged all through this, but I definitely want to acknowledge you for— and I've said this to you already, like how you have processed through all of these feelings and all of these emotions and just that like you have been a model demonstration for, and I'll speak for me, you know, you've been that model demonstration for me of how I would want to move through and navigate such a, like you said, you know, such a seismic period in your life.

Mm-hmm.

So thank you for, for, for being that, that, that beautiful model and demonstration and example of, you know, for all intents and purposes, how to, how to truly be a man, uh, embodying his divine feminine in— I mean, well, yeah, the divine feminine and masculine, um, in such a turbulent moment in your life. Thank you for that.

Thank you, brother.

Yeah. Yeah, really echoing that gratitude and admiration for how you've navigated through all of this. And you mentioned, like, working through the flood of feels and That's been my experience of you, is that you've really embraced the full range of emotion throughout all of this, when it can be really easy for me to just stay in the, the difficult feelings, or just stay in the, like, oh, it's positive, everything's cool, and, like, kind of avoiding the negative feelings.

And—

Yeah, I imagine there's been a mix of all of those things and curious about how you've kind of navigated the full spectrum of all of that.

Oof.

Hasn't been easy. The tendency is to marinate in and to wallow in the depths of the despair and the pain and the hurt and the Fear and all that kind of stuff. It's it's easy to do that. I will say I think it it comes back to a certain point again back to support. There's a couple of I was casting a net far and wide. Let me tell you, I had a conversation with two of Monica's spiritual teachers. One is an indigenous medicine man in southern Arizona, and the other one is a spiritual teacher, a shaman of sorts down in Mexico. I also had a— this is a thing— a medical intuitive reading. So people who are intuitive, I guess the colloquial term is psychic, but people who can just feel energies and sense things. And this particular one, she's up in Canada, who I guess specializes— she's not a doctor, but she has found that her gift is in really intuiting medical stuff with people, health stuff with people. So I had, you know, just got some input from her. So like I said, the net was cast far and wide. Here's the thing. All 3 of those people None of whom know each other, all came back with a really powerful key for me, which is joy. They all said, you need to find, to build, and to practice joy in your life as part of your healing journey. And that kind of blew me away because I was like, okay, We're not talking about which chemo drug. We're not talking about, you know, the diet that's going to starve the cancer. We're talking about joy and kind of the energetics of our emotional state. And that's what all 3 consistently pointed to as a really powerful weapon in my arsenal. So I said, okay, I need to figure out what that means for me now. Monica wasn't happy when I said that means I get to watch NFL all day, every Sunday. I'm just kidding. But, you know, finding those things that do bring me joy. I'm in treatment 5 days a week, but I do have the weekends, right? And the treatments are draining. Like, I come home, I'm at the end of my energy cycle when I come home each day from treatment. And This weekend, later today, later this afternoon, we're recording this on a Saturday. I've been talking with Monica. There's a rock climbing gym. Let's go do some rock climbing. Wouldn't that be fun? Tomorrow we're going to take the dogs for a hike up in the redwoods. So, you know, finding ways to connect with joy, to connect with nature, to be in the much higher vibration energy places. Is a big part of my healing work. So having that is something that I intrinsically knew, but having that reflected back to me and affirmed from 3 different people, none of whom know each other, was pretty powerful for me. And it was such a strong reminder of this isn't just physical work, this is energetic and emotional and spiritual work. It's all 4 of our bodies. being worked on at the same time.

Yeah. You know, I really appreciate what you just said, um, for various different reasons. Um, but I'm really glad that you're practicing joy, man. Uh, because I remember the first week that— I mean, the week that you told me that you found out that you had cancer, you're like, makes sense. Like, I was like holding back in so many other ways, you know, in my life. Um, yeah. And I From what I know about the universe, sometimes I like to complain to the universe and I don't believe it. It's, you know, all things are actually, you know, have purpose. But, uh, yeah, it's— I think it's really beautiful, man. And I think what you're doing really well is like, I think one, you're being a great mirror for, uh, people in general, not just men, um, to like witness and face their fears.

Yeah.

to like look at mortality, even like what they want their life to look like. But it also doesn't need to be like, you have to have cancer though to like, you know, find joy. Like we can actually all do that right now. And I think you're modeling that really well. And I think what you're also doing really well, man, is like slowing down enough to like find the lessons in it. Because I, something that I've been finding out in my life, like the more that I slow down, which I think I needed to hear this today myself, The more that I slow down, the happier I am anyways. Um, and you know, even though we're talking about cancer and your experience with cancer, I'm like, man, I'm so glad that I get to like be here for Chris in this moment. I'm sure we all feel the same way. Um, yeah, I feel like I feel your path forward because I get to connect with you and slow down with you. Um, it's really cool, brother.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Yeah.

Well, brothers, I, um, I appreciate you so much in holding me in this. And if you recall in my intro, um, I'm sorry, Smith, is there something else you wanted to drop in?

I, yeah, actually there's been, sorry, I'm totally stealing your show now. Um, there was something that I, uh, was thinking about with you. And I'm like, the perfect time is now.

Beautiful.

Yeah. I mean, like, I love and care about you so much. We love and care about you so much. Um, I'm wondering if there's any other way that we can support you. Um, what we have or have not been, just take an inventory for yourself. Like, is there actually any other way that we can support you ongoingly? Whether it's the same way or a different way that you would actually find supportive. And I'm saying this because, like, you know, as a friend, I'm like, how do I actually best support Chris? And I think on the other side is like, when someone gives you something, it's like, hey, this is going on. It's like, how do we actually like be with that too? You know?

Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. I really do appreciate it. Non-conventional cancer treatment courses are expensive, so send money. I'm just kidding. You don't have to send money.

Send you five dollars at least. Sure, five bucks.

I'll take it. Man, you all have been so supportive and already holding so much for me and supporting me so much. I love— I can't tell you how much I appreciate either the texts in our group chat or the one in our, just, you know, one-on-one texts. Just if you're thinking of me, I mean, even if I can't respond, don't respond. Just like, hey man, thinking about you, sending you good energy today. I can't tell you how impactful that is for me. It's, I'm getting emotional just, just saying that out loud. So if there's anything I would ask for, it's more of that. It's more of just being— just reach out, being seen, being witnessed. Um, any of our listeners, you can find me on Instagram and send a message there. Like, any sort of messages of support and love and energy that I get That's what I need, um, more than the money. Thanks for asking.

Yeah. And you can find him at winkingsunite.com.

There you go. chris@winkingsunite.com. That email's sick.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thanks so much.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Um, this feels like a good time to segue into, um, You know, the uppercut, if that was the body blow, getting the cancer diagnosis was the body blow, then came the uppercut. And this one is less about physical health and more about mental health. I had my biopsy, my biopsy procedure was done. On a Friday morning, which is very unpleasant. I don't know, you know, it's probably a, hopefully it's a small number of people in life that have ever had a cancer biopsy. Not very pleasant. Outpatient procedure. I was home, had my lunch, and then that afternoon I got a phone call telling me that my dad had passed away. Now, this is my stepfather. I call him my dad. I've talked about him before on the podcast. He's, uh, Um, married my mom when I was 4. He's the man that raised me and I, yeah, he's, he's my dad. Uh, but I got the, I received the news that same day as my biopsy procedure, uh, that he'd passed away. And, um, in fact, that he had, um, that he had chosen to end his own life, that he had, uh, he'd committed suicide. Um, So yeah, I mean, Smit, you mentioned the phone calls that we had when I was reeling from the diagnosis of cancer, and then to have this dropped right on top of that. And this was before I even had the diagnosis. This was just as I'm going through the discovery process of the procedures to find out what it is, to have this dropped in there and To get, you know, the phone call a week later with the diagnosis, and then a week after that to fly to Idaho for the funeral, you know, and, and all of the processing that had to happen there. Um, that's 2 weeks of my life I do not— I would never want to live again. It was so much, um, to be with and to deal with. Um, I've talked about my dad on the podcast before. Um, he, um, he was a wounded man. I think like many men are, he was a very hard and difficult man. Um, I think that he lived a life Just craving connection, wanting to be seen and heard and felt and loved, and not knowing how to get it. He never had it modeled for him when he was growing up. He's an adult child of alcoholics, had a lot of challenges from the way that he was raised. And he just never knew, never knew how to get the connection that he desperately, desperately Craved. Lifelong battle with depression. You know, growing up, I, I could walk in the front door and just sense by the energy in the house whether he had taken his medication that day or not. Right? Because of how impactful his mental health was on the entire family and the energy of the house. Yeah. He, as I said, he had that, that continuous chronic struggle with depression. He and my mom, they split probably about 25 years ago. A little over 25 years ago is when they separated, not long after I left the house. And they both remarried. And then the woman that my dad remarried, a couple of years after they got married, was diagnosed with breast cancer. She fought that. It was in remission, got into remission, and then 10 years later it came back and it took her in 2018. Um, that was a real, real struggle for him to be a caretaker. Um, obviously he loved her and she loved him. And, um, um, but it, it was, he firsthand, like, witnessed and played that role of what it means to caretake someone who's battling chronic terminal illness. Um, we don't know. He left very little behind in terms of any sort of clues or reason. Very short note that he left behind other than a list of instructions on what to do with his belongings and his affairs. He didn't have a will. He just kind of wrote out, you know, give my car to this person and my house to that person, whatever. But the only other kind of reason or note that he left was a very simple, short note that just said, I didn't want to live anymore. So that leaves a big gaping hole of a question mark. It's like, what the fuck? Why? Why did he make this choice? Was it The depths of depression, we don't know. One of the first things that was asked, he was 70, I think he was 72 years old. One of the first things that was asked was if he'd had a recent health diagnosis. I guess that's a thing, especially with older men. If they receive a health diagnosis and they're like, well, There's a long, protracted, painful way to do this, or there's just a short, quick way to do this. And this being death. And I guess that's a thing that some people, specifically men, will choose. No one had heard anything. No one knew anything. We still don't, other than in his home, we did find a prescription bottle with a medication that is normally, usually prescribed as— A treatment for prostate cancer, but didn't tell anyone. And good luck getting any information out of any medical system, right, with HIPAA laws and all that. And that's, that's all fair. That's all valid. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be that way, but we're still kind of left in the dark as to the why. And it's a struggle to kind of pick up the pieces and kind of— that's, that's the biggest question that anyone would have in this sort of situation is, What, what caused this decision? What drove this? And we'll never know. And that's the shitty part. We'll never know for sure. You know, it's all conjecture. So yeah, that's like I said in the intro, right, of our episode, it's a one-two punch. It was really tough and it really surfaced for me, resurfaced for me. The importance of mental health. Obviously, I'm dealing with physical health challenges myself right now, and I'm really grateful and thankful that mental health is not something that I've really struggled with in the past. I've had times. I think we've all had times and moments where we've had depression, we've had different periods or episodes in our life, but it hasn't been a chronic thing for me. And it really just raised in my mind How important it is to kind of pull back the veil of the stigma around mental health, especially for men. Um, because it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to end this way. You know, there's— there are ways to live life in a happy, healthy way. You just have to be willing to ask for help. You know, my imagination, the story that I tell myself in my head is that my dad decided that he simply didn't want to be a burden. He knew what it was like to be a caretaker for his wife as she went through 10 years of cancer treatment, and ultimately she passed, and the burden that he had to shoulder for that. And the story that I have in my head is that he was like, Maybe a little bit of a messiah complex and a savior, and I'm just not gonna— I'm gonna keep everyone from having to deal with this burden of caring for me. Um, that's the story that I have in my head. And of course, in my mind, it's a false story. It's a false choice. Like, any one of us as children, any one of his grandchildren would've done anything. To be with him, to support him, to help him, to walk with him as he battled, hopefully successfully battled. Um, but, you know, he chose otherwise. That's the story in my head. So, yeah, it's just, I think it's, it's so important and so critical, especially for men. I think the stigma is lessening around mental health, but this really hit home for me in the most obscenely dramatic way possible last month when this all happened with my dad.

Really appreciate you sharing all that and invite Everyone here to just take a deep breath. So much heaviness to hold all at once. And man, yeah, if God presents you opportunities to be strong, he's trying to make you a fucking gladiator.

Oh man, careful what you ask for.

Oof.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Thank you, brother.

Yeah, I, I remember when you told us the news, I was just like, fuck. Like, I could, I could feel the, the gravity and the weight of Just like, like, really? That too? Like, the timing of, of all of this was— I, I, I, I was almost in disbelief myself. So I just could only imagine what you had to endure and process during that period.

Mm-hmm.

And, and just like all of my empathy and love just went out to you. Um, 'cause I just, I, I couldn't imagine, um, you know, being in the process of learning what's happening with my body and then having that occur as well as such a, such a tremendous loss. Uh, in tandem with that, Like, my, my, the only question I have is how did you do it?

I don't know. I don't know. Um, one foot in front of the other. Um, I was, I'm so I'm so deeply grateful for Monica.

Mm-hmm.

Um, God, she is, she is divine feminine warrior. She, she, um, held me, supported me, cried with me, took care of shit that had to be taken care of for me. Um, You men, you know, the phone calls, the texts, the voice memos, the everything, just holding me. And it was a lot. It still is a lot. But again, as with the previous conversation about My physical health and cancer, it's, it's, it's community, it's support.

It's being—

I had no choice but to let myself be held and supported because I, that's no, no human can do that on their own.

Yeah.

Nobody can do that on their own. It's impossible. And, uh, so yeah. The people in my life, the people closest to me in my life. Um, and I'm including you 3 in that, you know, my kings, my brothers.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I just had to lean in.

Yeah. Yeah. And I know I've said this to you before and I'll say it again. In front of the world is, in addition to the weight and the gravity that even I felt when you were going through all of that, there was also another side or another end of the spectrum for me that came up for me for you. It's like, number one, he's gonna beat this. Like, there's absolutely no question about that. And who— who the fuck will you be?

Yeah.

And just like, I got— like, there was a part of me that was even excited about the Chris Grinstedt that is going to emerge through and from all of this. And just the story and the testimony that you already have. But then, like, when you do beat it, you know, like, and the information that you have and, you know, the story that you have and, like, man.

Mm.

Just the impact that your being is already having in the world. Just imagine what it will be then. Yeah.

Thank you, brother. I can, uh, that means so much. Um, about 10 days after I got this news about my dad, that would make it 4 days after I got the phone call with my diagnosis.

Yeah.

Um, It was a Sunday morning and Monica and I took the dogs for a walk. We went down to a nearby park and I brought some of my spiritual items with me. And I asked Monica, hey, as you're over here playing with the dogs and throwing the ball and doing the things with them, I'm going to go over here onto this little bench. And I'm going to do my— I hadn't done my spiritual practice yet that day. So, you know, I had my sage, my Palo Santo, and, you know, all my things. And I did my meditation, I did my mantra. And through that particular meditation session, I had such a powerful download. And it was 2 things that were crystal clear to me. And the first thing is, this isn't the end.

Mm.

Right? This is 4 days after my diagnosis. It was like, no, no, this isn't it for me. Like, it was clear as a bell certainty. I've got much more to do. This is a speed bump in my life. This isn't a brick wall. Specifically around my cancer, but also around my dad.

Yeah.

And the second download that I got so crystal clear is, there's gold in here. You just got to do the work to find it. So just like you said, Doc, I've— that I've carried with me since then as I walk this journey, as I walk this path. looking curiously, where's the goal? Where's my, where's my growth? What do I get? How do I get to learn a different way to be? Where do I get to show up in my powerful, authentic voice when I'm talking with the radiation oncologist who's trying to push this radiation treatment on me that every fiber of my being is telling me that's not for me? Right?

Mm-hmm.

How do I, you know, use my authentic voice in love and in joy as I speak with you all, as I share with Monica, as I, you know, be with Monica in our relationship? I have visions in my meditations now around after I'm through all of this, what my work will look like. You know, how I will be able to— how I not be able to— how I will choose to take this journey, these lessons, and support others. Whether that's one-on-one as a coach, whether that's working in the corporate setting with teams, which I'm really feeling called to do right now, whether that's standing on a stage in front of, I don't know how many people, And sharing with them what they too can do, who they too can be.

Mm.

I don't know what it is, but I know that there's so much more out there for me and that this part of my journey right now, this speed bump, is actually like a rocket launching pad, right? That this is the moment. These, these are the experiences that are going to form and shape me at the ripe young age of 48 years old. into a very different man, a very different human being, and a much more powerful one.

Mm-hmm.

I just gotta get outta the way and, you know, let spirit do its work, right? Put in the work and, and, you know, not be hyper-attached to any sort of outcome, but just approach it with curiosity, approach it with eagerness, you know? Approach it with a full tank and joy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're, you're doing it with such dignity and such beauty and such grace. It's, it's, it's beautiful and fascinating to watch and witness.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you, brother. Love you, Chris. Love you, Smith.

I love you.

Freddie, love you, brother.

Love you. And I'm curious on if there's anything, any way you'd like to honor your dad in this moment.

Oh, I'd like to share 2 things. I was actually surprised at how I was through the process. I didn't have any sort of deep emotional breakdowns or, you know, those, you know, what you would think would happen of the deep sobbing sadness that happens when things like, you know, that comes up when things like this happen. Until I was in Idaho, it was the day before the funeral, and I was with my older brother at his house, just kind of walking through his house and Seeing what was there and what you know if there's anything that I wanted specifically to bring back with me, and I had asked for a small portion of his ashes. He chose to be cremated, and when my brother like was he I'm very grateful and thankful that he did a lot of kind of the logistics handled all the. Blocking and tackling of everything that had to happen. But he had a little bag, and he reached in the bag, and he pulled out a little baggie, and he gave it to me. That was like kind of my my part, my portion of my dad's ashes. That's like that was woof when it really hit me. My my intention was to bring it back with me to to California, to Santa Cruz, and to Find a day to go down to the ocean and to sit with him and to honor him privately and then give him to the ocean. But that night after, you know, I had his ashes, I was holding him in my pocket. I just knew that that wasn't— that would've been for me to bring him to my place and to put him in my ocean, right? Like, that would've been much more for me. And then I had this thought of like, how could I really honor him and be with him? And then all of a sudden it clicked in my mind.

Oh.

Where the funeral was is the small town in Idaho Southern Idaho, where I grew up, until I was like 12 or 13 years old. And there was a lake about 20 minutes outside of town where he would always take us fishing. And I remembered, like, oh, it just popped into my head, these vivid memories of going fishing at this lake. And so after the funeral that evening, Uh, Monica and I drove out to that lake and, um, had a little, had a little ceremony and, you know, had some, had some sage smoke go up to the heavens. And, uh, and that's where I left him. That's where I gave him.

Hmm.

Was, was in that, that space where he and I had so many shared memories and so much shared energy, as opposed to the ocean that's just outside of my house. So that's one answer to your question, Wes, is to honor him as just the man that he was as a father, as someone who really loved nature. He loved fishing and hunting and camping and just being outdoors. And For me to have that moment of not just remembering the times that were, the memories and the energy that was from my childhood, but also feeling him there with me in that place, in that moment, and then releasing him.

Yeah.

Giving him back to that energy was really powerful for me. I just wanted to share that. And then the second thing in terms of honoring him and recognizing him is a bit of a sounding the siren for men. Far too many men, 4 times as many men commit suicide than women do.

4x.

I mean, it's ridiculous how, how epidemic mental health for men is. And I think for me, one of the best ways to remember and recognize and honor him is to hold him not as a broken man, Not as a fatally flawed man, but a wounded man like so many others who didn't really see another way. And man, I want to hold a light. I want to hold a torch in the darkness. I want to call other men to be torchbearers in that darkness. So that no man, no other man has to be in the same place that my dad was. So that no man has to feel like a burden. No man has to feel alone. No man has to feel that they don't know how to get connection. So that's a very clear part of my path forward and my commitment going forward in men's work. And I would invite you, my brothers, and I would invite anyone who's listening to join me in that.

Beautiful. Absolutely. Thank you, Chris.

Thank you for, thank you for asking the question, Wes, and providing the space and holding it.

Yeah, they say grief is just love with nowhere to go, and the depths of your grief are only there because of the depth of love that exists. And yeah, really beautiful to feel and see you honor him and what he meant to you. And the call forward of being the support that he and many men out there didn't have.

Thank you, brother. Yeah, I appreciate you. Man, does this feel like an okay place to wrap this episode? Anything else you want to Ask? Anything else you want to say?

Yeah.

Um, I guess my question is, is, is there anything burning in your heart from all of this, uh, all of these experiences that you've been navigating? Is there something burning in your heart that you want us to know, that you want our listeners to know?

It's a little lower than the heart. It's my, um, it's my solar plexus chakra. And it's, um, courage and commitment. That's what I'm, that's what I'm being called for. That's what I'm being called forth right now into is courage and commitment. That's my work right now. And I would invite you 3 and any man listening, any person listening, especially men, to really To really be curious, to seek out what it means to embody courage, to be scared and do it anyways, to be committed to a way of being, not necessarily to an outcome, but be committed to the type of person that you want to be. And then do and be. everything that's required for that to be the case. That's what's burning inside of me.

Thank you. Thank you for that, Chris.

Thank you, Doc. We ready to wrap?

Sure.

I think so. I can't remember if we mentioned in the intro or not that this will be the closing episode of season 1 of When Kings Unite. And as Chris recovers, we're gonna have likely some rotating guests on. Maybe some episodes will be just me, Smith, and Freddie. Or if Chris— welcome anytime to— If you're feeling particularly energized on a weekend or something to jump in, but Yeah, we have it that Chris will be joining us back here in no time once he kicks cancer's ass.

So it's gotta happen. We all know that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you so much. Well, that I guess that brings us to the close of this really. Deep and powerful and personal conversation, and an important one on health and wellbeing. I really wanna thank you, thank you guys. Freddie, Smit, Wes, thank you so much for being here to hold this space with integrity and love. And I'd just like to leave you and our listeners with this. One of the biggest things that I've learned through so far through this journey is this kind of a simple truth. And that is that strength is not the absence of weakness. Strength is the willingness to seek help and simply to face your humanity, to be human. So whether it's going to the doctor when you feel a lump like I did, Reaching out to a brother when the darkness feels too heavy. Take that action. That's the highest form of the divine masculine. For any of our listeners, if anything that we said today resonated with a deep need that you have, please take action. Your life, your health, and your future depend on it. There's so many resources out there. In the United States and Canada, you can phone and text 888, excuse me, 988, which is a suicide and crisis lifeline for anyone, confidential support for anyone in emotional distress or in a suicidal crisis. There's, um, the National Cancer Institute, reliable and authoritative information on all sorts of different forms of cancer treatment options, clinical trials. Www.cancer.gov. Phone number is 1-800, the number 4, cancer, 1-800-422-6237. If you need to talk with someone, Psychology Today has a fantastic therapist finder. It's a directory used to find licensed therapists, counselors, psychologists who specialize in a variety of issues, including men's mental health. Including processing grief. That's psychologytoday.com, and then just search for find a therapist. And of course, please, your primary care provider, your doctor. So many men wait until it's a crisis to connect with their doctor about physical or mental health concerns. All of these resources are available. Please take action and depend on those. As Wes mentioned, we'll have some upcoming changes to the format. I'll be stepping stepping back as I continue my courses of treatment, and I'm really looking forward to be back when when I'm completely cancer free. Until then, I know that you're in such good hands with these three kings, and I know they're going to bring through some amazing guest hosts. some powerful men in their circles to continue the conversation around how we can continue to hold masculinity as medicine.

I love you all.

I'll be back soon. And until then, until then, each of you take care of your king. We'll connect again soon.

Love you, Chris. Love you.

Love you guys.