Reclaiming Play and Radical Authenticity with Thomas Renner | S02 E05

Welcome back to When Kings Unite, the podcast dedicated to holding masculinity as medicine. One thing we know is that true strength is never really found in isolation, but it's usually found in the shared wisdom of brothers walking the same path. When we choose to step away from this lone wolf mentality, we allow the lived experiences of other men to accelerate our own healing and expand our purpose. So today, not just the 4 of us, but today we welcome a guest to the show to offer a fresh, fresh perspective on what it means to be a fully integrated man. Are you ready? Let's go. All right, welcome back everyone. Glad to have you with us today. And, uh, Wes, Freddie, Smit, always good to see your smiling faces. And we have a 5th smiling face. Those of you who are watching on YouTube, you can see his smiling face as well. Thomas Renner. Welcome, Thomas.

Oh, what's up? I'm so grateful to be here. And I— every— the drop-ins that you had for the 5 Kings, I was like, great, we've got 5 Kings right here. This is perfect.

We do. We have 5. Usually it's 4, but today we've got 5. Freddie, Wes, Smit, how are y'all doing today?

Very good.

Hey, hey, hey.

I'm—

yeah, I'm super excited just to have Thomas here. Like, like, literally my body can't fucking take it. Um, yeah, I think everybody's gonna be in for a treat today.

Well, Smith, why don't you— why don't you start by just sharing? Smith, why don't you kick us off, man? Just tell us a little bit about, uh, about how you got to know Thomas.

Yeah, um, I've had actually like a few different experiences like of Thomas in different, uh, points in my life. Um, I didn't know who Thomas was until we did some I guess it was like a business accelerator about how to like live authentically through our business. And Thomas was literally like— my experience of Thomas was just like a bright light. And I was like, damn, this dude is insane. And as I shared on this podcast before, I had a huge fucking hard time with like intimacy with men. So at the same time, even though I love Thomas, I wanted nothing to do with Thomas for a while. And the most recent experience now, fast forwarding a little bit, is Thomas and I attended a retreat together. We've talked about Alchemy Med on this space a few times, and he was participating and also leading the experience. And oh man, like Thomas did a beautiful breathwork experience for us. He led us through some different exercises. Thomas was like just so grounded. He was still doing his work. But honestly, Thomas is also fucking hilarious. He's also really real. And so I think those like are the parts of me that I'm super excited about because I have some like shared experience with him. But I think like regardless of the experience we were having, like Thomas is always just like who he is. Yeah. And that's my favorite part about him. Yeah.

Yeah. Thanks, man. I— the first time I met, I met Thomas was at a— was also at a retreat. I think I didn't meet you before the first Alchemy Men retreat I went to. And I walked in and, you know, looking around and you know how It may typically go at these sorts of things where you get a group of strange men together for the first time on the precipice of something really cool. But, uh, but you're just kind of looking around, a lot of people, they're in their shit a little bit, you know? It's like they're, they're a little bit closed off. They can be a little like nervous or a little anxious or a little scared about what's going to happen. And just looking around the room and exactly what you said, Smith, Thomas was just like this sunburst of, of light and love and energy. It was just so cool. And from that first impression, um, man, it's just only gotten— so much deeper to get a chance to know you a little bit and to, uh, you know, to be led by you in those retreats. And, um, you give the best hugs. I don't know, it's just, you're just a magical, magical human being. So, so glad to have you here.

You know what would be crazy, by the way? What an introduction. Thank you both so much. And the sentiments are reciprocated, please know that. And so those of you who are watching too, like Wes and Freddie, I can't wait to get to know you a little bit better here on the podcast as well. Then you can share what your experience is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't, I don't know if or, or when we can ever make, make it happen, but definitely want one of those hugs.

Yes. Where are you, by the way?

I'm in Dallas.

You're kidding, right?

No, he lives in Dallas.

They didn't tell you?

No.

We didn't tell him.

That's where I am.

No way. What part?

Yeah, I'm like right next to Love Field.

Oh, okay. I'm in McKinney.

Oh girl, you're not in Dallas.

I'm in the DFW Metroplex. Thank you very much.

That's like when the Housewives are like, I live in New York. I'm like, no girl, you live in Jersey. There is a, there is a difference.

Oh man.

Oh, well then great. Freddie will have to meet. This is amazing.

Awesome.

And the hyper-local regional, uh, smack talk begins.

I love it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I really was thinking about that though, Chris, when you were introing. I was like, holy shit. Because Freddie gives amazing hugs. I've said this for a while, but I'm like, what happens when 2 great huggers hug each other? What happens then? Is it like a hug-off? Like, I have no idea.

It's, it's hugging squared. Like, it's exponential.

I don't know.

The world stops spinning.

It's actually how magic happens.

That part.

Got it.

Magic is real.

Got it.

Yeah. I'm currently watching The Boys. Are y'all, are y'all watching The Boys?

No, I have no idea what that is.

I haven't watched it yet.

I started it and I just couldn't. I couldn't. But yeah.

I get it. I, and I get why you can't. And, but like, that's when you were like, what happens when 2 huggers meet? I'm like, yes, magic. Magic. 'Cause I'm just, I'm stuck in The Boys head, The Boys head zone. Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Thomas, I think our regular listeners, they've gotten a chance to hear a little bit about our backstory, our history of each of us. And so I'd love just if you, by way of maybe a deeper introduction— Smith shared, I shared a little bit of how we got to know you and our experience of you. We'd just love to hear in your own words, like, who is Thomas? Where do you come from? What do you stand for? What are you about?

Oh my gosh, well, that will take the entire half hour. This is great. So don't hold your breath. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, I mean, I just sort of backtrack slightly. Like, yes, Smith, Chris, and I, we met working and being inside of men's retreats, but I didn't come to men's retreats. I didn't come to them by happenstance. I started doing a lot of work around 2020 when it comes to like the coaching world and the self-development world. In 2020, I was doing full-time fitness and I really loved it, but in 2019, I I lost my job tragically, which so many people experience, and it's often a very big life-changing experience for many of us. And for me, that was the first time that I had to question my identity. I knew kind of who I was outside of fitness slightly. I knew who I was necessarily like as a queer man, and I'm still figuring out and just experiencing what that actually is daily. But, In 2020, I became a life and leadership coach, and that's really kind of what transformed my life and my career. But up until then, I was doing theater and I was doing fitness. I went to school for musical theater, graduated with a BFA from the Boston Conservatory. I just knew that I didn't want to go to New York and live with 7 roommates and eat ramen noodles. And of course, that was the story that I was telling myself at the time. So whether that would've been accurate or not, we'll never know. And I just became into the self-development world and met many people in the men's space through that. And so I started working with a men's retreat space. I ran my own retreat in 20— what is this, '26 and 2024? And that's kind of how I figured out like, I never wanna do things alone. I'm not a lone per— I'm like, I'm the worst entrepreneur because I was just telling a friend this morning at coffee, I was like, I really, I think I would throw thrive in the corporate space. And he's like, you tell me constantly how you would hate it. And I'm like, you're right, I wouldn't like the schedule, but I would love the camaraderie and the idea of going into an office and being with people. Like, I definitely thrive in social situations. But again, as I get older— I'm turning 40 in like 8 days— uh, I gather a lot of strength and awareness through being on my own. But I really enjoy being with people. And so that is kind of what brought me to like being on podcasts and being a podcast guest and running my own group coaching programs. And I still teach group fitness to this day. And all that to be said, like the things you asked me, like what sort of, what's, uh, not what's important to me, but like who kind of am I at this stage? Like, I'm not really familiar actually how much of the drop-in that you share with your listeners, but like there was a—

None.

None? Great. Well, we dropped in.

Yeah, we do it just for us.

Yeah, we do. I love it. Well, they were talking about the 5 Kings and I was naming the 5 pieces of who I am, and I think it changes. And right now I'm in very much of a play place. I just want to play. There's so much seriousness and there's so many heightened emotions around how the world's going, I think is a very fair way to say it, that I think that that can all be there and we can all just play just a little bit more, and that makes the experience of life just exponentially better. So I'm going to play space for myself. How can I play with my anger? How can I play with disagreements with my partner? How can I play with having coffee with friends? How can I play with moving my body in the shower by myself, singing to Celine Dion? How can I just play more? Because this brings my life more meaning. For me. And ultimately, like, we're not living our lives for anybody else. We're living for ourselves.

That part.

So yeah, that's a— I kind of did this. This is kind of also what I do when I storytell, because I love to tell people that I'm a terrible storyteller. If you ever want me to tell a story, ask my partner, just have him do it instead. He's so much better at the linear timelines.

So you tell people that and then you go and tell an amazing story. Sorry, go ahead, buddy.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah.

Well, first, happy early birthday.

Thanks, Freddie.

And welcome to the 40-plus club soon.

It's going to be a great decade. The only thing that I fear the most is, and this is going to sound super existential, I was telling my friend this morning, I was like, gosh, I just don't want to think about medical bills or taking care of my parents. Like, I don't want that responsibility and my back is hurting really bad. So I'm like, the days of neglecting the things that, you know, are not working are very much over.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that, that's a real thing. Trust me. And something else that you said that really resonated with me, uh, is the alignment is crazy is Just the fact that you're leaning into more enjoyment and pleasure and fun in your life now. And that's been the case for me, for sure, as well, in the last few months, for sure, probably the last couple of years, just reminding myself not to take myself or anything too seriously. And that has been a challenge for me in my life. But, you know, I'm 45 now. I'll be 46 in a couple of months. And, uh, you know, the, the, as I inch closer to 50, I'm like, okay, how can I have even more fun and enjoy my life even more and not, and take myself even less seriously? Because as, as we like to, as we like to share with our buddy Wes, Sort of, uh, sort of like our mantra is all this shit is made up. At the end of the day, it's all made up. So why not have more fun with it and play?

Yeah, I, we just recently went to Scotland. Like, thanks for saying all that, the, the made-up part too, sort of like taking us into this trajectory because we were in Scotland and I was walking around these ancient buildings, like they've been around for centuries, years, whatever. And then I come back to Dallas and I was like, I'm going to go for a walk. I'm like, oh, a CVS and power lines. How ridiculous is like, this is what we made up here.

Right?

So I just having more fun and deciding like the acknowledgement too of what already is fun that we don't take, that we take for granted.

Hmm.

That is part of the work too, versus just creating the more fun. Like small interactions can be really fun if you allow them to be.

Yeah.

But we're usually already pre-thinking about the seriousness of what's the next thing we're going to do. And I'm, I mean, even frivolous things like, oh, I have to be on time for something, or I need to wear something important to this event, or I need to make sure that I get rest. I'm like, or just like have fun being present in the conversation you're currently in that really could change your life or show you enjoyment. Like Freddie, I can already tell that your smile lights up people's lives. And I, and I just met you, so I can, I can tell that it's just like, just someone being in your presence and acknowledging your smile, like will make more enjoyment for your life. My, that's my hope.

Thank you. Thank you for that.

And I see you're a coach.

Is that right? My life.

You're also a coach. Is that what I see, Freddie, in the background?

Oh yeah.

Yes.

I'm a, I'm a master certified coach.

Oh, hell yes.

Yeah.

You did, you did the work.

I did the work for sure.

Yeah. Not quite there yet. One of, one of the things that I laugh about is, uh, when I work with like CEOs or corporate leaders, I'm like, no one has ever asked me, not a single one of them has ever asked me for my certification. And I'm like, oh, what the hell do I have this for? You mean I could have done this the whole time? The whole time? No. That's amazing. Congratulations. You definitely put the work in there.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, actually we got, uh, all of us, all of us here on this call are coaches. Yeah. Wes, you want to talk a little bit about, uh, about your journey?

Yeah. Wes, you're the quiet one.

Until he comes in with a truth bomb. Like he will, he will sit back and just listen.

And then he comes in and in 30 seconds, just completely nukes Oh my God, please nuke my world, Wes.

Yeah, if I'm being fully honest right now, I took a small dose of mushrooms earlier and still kind of sitting with that.

We're getting the best of Wes.

Dude, I— we did those right before we went to the Demi Lovato concert last Friday, and the opener was someone I hadn't— I had never seen or heard of, and it hit like right when she went on. I was like, I was stone-cold cold. Stuart turned to me, my partner, he like turns to me and goes, are you okay? I was like, yeah, I'm really good. So I get this comedown, I get this comedown you're having right now, so I won't force you to talk yet.

Oh yeah, yeah, still dropping in there, but feeling good, vibing off the, the energy here for sure.

Where are you, Wes?

I'm in San Francisco.

Where in the Bay Area?

In San Francisco.

Yeah.

In the city.

Are you in downtown?

In like the middle. I'm in a little neighborhood called Duboce Triangle.

Oh, cool. I'll be back there in July.

Oh, nice. Yeah.

Yeah.

Let me know when you're here.

Yeah, for sure. I go with— I'm sure you've heard of the— or Chris at least had the ICTC. Yeah, it's an inner child theater camp. So talking about more fun and enjoyment, like I'm the choreographer and movement guide, and also I'll be doing the camp director role for a couple of them in the fall. But we are doing a summer tour, so SF and DC are in July, and that's where I'll be.

That sounds so fun.

Yeah, I was actually really curious about that as well.

Yeah, ask away.

Yeah. By the way, I was just so excited that I had to leave for a little bit.

It wasn't my internet by any means.

But one of the things that I heard about was you're really in that scene. And I was always curious, how did that always, or how did that start to go about? Because it's, I mean, become kind of huge. I saw Aaron, who's one of the founders, on a talk show. And I've seen so many other things, even in cities near me.

Yeah.

And it seems like It's becoming a really cool thing. So I'd, I'd love to hear more about that.

Yeah. Well, just FYI, her name is Evan, but just so we're clear, I called her Erin for a very long time. So you're not, you're not alone. Uh, it was kind of a running joke because I would call her Erin in front of Alex. Alex is her husband all the time. And he's like, her name is Evan. I was like, I'm so sorry. Uh, but it's actually, it's kind of full circle. Interesting that I'm telling this story on this specific podcast, but Alex and I, Alex is one of the leaders of Alchemy of Men, which is of course how Chris and Smitty and I sort of met in real life. And I was working with Alex at the time on the leadership team. We did a whole, this is gonna tie you in, Wes. We did a whole journey. It was like a 6-hour journey where we were under some of the influence of amazing medicine through a friend of ours, Christina. And Evan was one of like the support people. So like as we were undergoing our journey, if we needed any support, like she was one of the women that were there. And I had to go to the bathroom, which I often have to go to the bathroom. So I got out of my eye mask and stood up and I was very not able to stand on my own. And so I reached out and Evan was the first one and she reached out. I was like, please help me. Can you assist me?

Mm-hmm.

And so it was just downhill for like a love affair between her and I from there, because after we were sort of completing the journey, she was in the kitchen and they were making dinner for all of us. There were the 5 leaders. And she goes, oh my gosh, I'm starting this musical theater camp and you should come. I'm like, okay. Literally, it was like very, very short interaction. She's like, you should come. So last July, which it's not even been going, Smith, for a full year yet. That's how insane this is. So I went as a participant in their first camp, and then immediately when it was done, I told her, I was like, I need to be a part of this. And ever since then, they interviewed me and I've been the movement guide and choreographer for them. But I met her through her husband through men's retreats. And now, yes, she was interviewed on Kelly Clarkson for a short segment at the end of the talk show for the things that Kelly loves. And we were just in the news, I believe in Chicago, LA, and Atlanta. They came when we did our LA camp recently, and they filmed us. It's becoming really popular because I think social media is a huge part of it, right? Like, social media does wonders. It's both a blessing and a curse in many ways. But it just got the word And there are people that are yearning for what it has to offer, which is really just play and enjoyment and connection. And like, I have it that that's probably one thing that you all talk about on this podcast with men all the time is like enjoyment and connection on this path of brotherhood that you mentioned earlier, Chris. Like, that's what people are yearning for. And so the, the thread is that they all love musical theater or they all love theater. And so They all come to, we all come together, we dance, we sing, we go through some exercises that are like self-development alike, but they're not intended for that necessarily. They're just really intentional conversations and experiential exercises that have us just playing more, Freddie, like just playing way more than we are in our normal lives.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm sure Freddie and too, and Wes, you have this experience when you go to sort of events, you know, you have that comedown, Wes, of like, you have this great experience and then suddenly you're like, oh, okay, we're back to life. And if we get back into the string of things, I think what ICTC does is what it's created this incredible community. So when it's over, it's not over and gone, it's over. And like now people are visiting each other in different cities, or people that have gone to LA are going to be going to the DC camp. So they're going to fly across country to go to camp again together, or they're creating like miniature field trips, like Um, I, I went to New York last January just because I wanted to go visit friends. And then Frank, our music director, was turning 40. He was like, well, I'm gonna go celebrate my 40th. And then 5 other campers came as well. So it's just generating this entire community. I think that's what's keeping the success going, Smitt, and the fact that camps are just really well designed to just have a lot of fun.

It's so cool. Yeah, I love like hearing about it. And I also think because I know like part of your background, like movement and doing like transformational work, it sounds like my experience is like, and it looks like you guys literally do both in these camps. Uh, and it's caught my eye so much that I was never a theater kid, but I was like, maybe I could be a theater adult and bring my little kid with me now. Yeah.

Well, and it's kind of like the idea, like there's a lot of men that actually come to the, to the camps as well. Men you might not expect. We have had a couple corporate men come and they just leave with more confidence, the more ability to speak in a different way or speak into a bigger room of people. Because there are between 50 and 70 people and the age range is between 20 and 70.

Wow.

We had a woman who came and she had had a stroke 2 years before. No one knew until the end of the camp when we're doing a lot of sharing. She couldn't speak.

Or move.

And she was singing and dancing 2 years later. And so it's like reclaiming that joyful part of yourself that maybe was lost or that you haven't expressed in a while. And the fact that it's reaching sort of all demographics, it's really, really cool.

I love that, man. What I'm hearing is the intersectionality of so much of what you stand for and who you are, right? Of joy, of play, of develop of community, right? And of expansion. It's just like all encapsulated in this ICTC thing, which is so cool. And the experiences that you just relate are so powerful. And I can't help but kind of hold that up against the backdrop of what normal life is for many people, probably more so than not in the world today. So I'm curious from like in your work, in your coaching work or in any other way that you express yourself. What are some ways that you have found to kind of bridge that gap, right? To reach out and to touch the people who might have a block somehow, or who may want to but feel restrained or not be able to. How do you kind of bridge that gap and invite people into this place of joy, community, and connection?

Well, much like coaching— well, thanks for the great question, but much like coaching, they have to be willing. There has to be some sort of willingness. Otherwise, what's the point? You're just butting your head up against a dead wall, right? So I think it's giving or offering gateways to experience it, like ICTC or like coaching or my yoga classes. And so that barrier sort of gets broken down and then it's like, okay, great. So now what? What are we going to do with this opportunity of fun and play? Are we going to knock it down? Are we going to look at it? Are we going to play with it and bat it like a cat and the cat toy? Like, what are we going to do with it? And I think the invitation is mostly what people need, plus permission.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, sometimes it's really nice to just offer permission.

And that's the part that I think oftentimes people are missing. Like, they're waiting for— so many guys out there who are just waiting for permission to be a kid, to play, to be joyful, to speak up, to be themselves, whatever. And I love that so much of— if I can reflect back to you, I think I've shared this with you in person before. So much of what I get from being with you is how unapologetically real you are.

Right.

There's no pretense. There's no masking. It's just like, I'm Thomas. You get what you get. And it's amazing. And what a model for many men. I'll include myself in this, who still struggle sometimes with wearing the mask and putting on the performance. Right. So just being around you, I, that for me, that's the permission that I get. And so I love that about you. And I also see so much opportunity for me to kind of follow in your footsteps and model, you know, your model a little bit in that, and in hopes that it would help impact some other men as well.

Yeah. And thanks for the acknowledgement. I do receive that. And if I have to be transparent, like it doesn't always come Authentically, even though it shows up that way. And what I mean by that is I used to weaponize vulnerability really hardcore, because if I got to tell you everything, you didn't get to ask me any questions. Therefore, I got to narrate the story and you got to believe what I said. So the difference for me now is, one, I think there are levels of the spectrum that you talked about. Like, I give you permission in some ways, like you probably give a lot of men permission just by being who you are and sharing who you are too. Like, I think there are different levels.

Yeah.

And for me, what was the heart— there were 2 pieces. One was I had to let down my barrier of I had to be right all the time. Like, I had to let down my righteousness. I had to let it go. I still wrestle with it to this day. The second thing was, is to let go of people liking me or not. Like, the more I say the wrong things, the more anxiety I feel, but the more I get to show up as myself. Because if I, like, for instance, I asked like, hey, what do you, what are the rules that y'all have maybe on this podcast? Like for some podcasts, like profanity isn't something that they really want, but like profanity is something I do all the time. And I don't do it from a place of disrespect of others. I do it from a place of authenticity to myself.

Yeah.

And like, my mom is a great example. Like she hates it when I use the F word, like hates it. And she like viscerally gets upset and like tells me in the moment, I'm like, great. It's, this isn't about you.

Hmm.

That part.

And it's not, again, it's not out of disrespect, but the authenticity of showing up as who I am comes from trying to not make sure that everyone likes me and trusting that if I fuck up, which I'm going to because we're human, that I'll either clean it up or I won't.

Yeah, that's super cool, man. I mean, there's, I think there's so much, um, for me in that, uh, a lot of relatability. I think one of the biggest things that I'm, I'm currently working on is, uh, what you like just described is like what other people's thoughts, judgments, and opinions are of me. Um, I wanna practice like letting more of that like just slide off of me. Um, and it's such a fricking practice, so I really appreciate you like Just putting that on loudspeaker because like in the context of like this podcast, like part of what our mission is like to share that with people. Like, I think you just gave like something so relatable that almost every single human experiences on a daily basis. Um, and I also think that, uh, the lesson in it for me is like, man, it is a practice to be authentic and I'd rather be me than somebody else. Um, so thank you for so like artfully like saying that. It actually like freed up something in my body, um, right now too.

I, I like to think of it as the way I learned dating. Like I was horrible at dating because I would ask myself one question after every date. What do you think the one question I would ask is? Just take a guess. Anybody?

What'd I do wrong?

Keep going.

What did I do wrong?

I don't know.

Great. Who else?

Man, was I hot enough? I don't know.

Great.

Great.

Freddie, what you got? Hit me.

Uh, did I do good enough?

Awesome. Wes, what you got? Have you come down enough to answer questions yet?

Yeah.

I'm thinking, was it, did they like me?

Yeah. Do they want to go on a second date with me? What's wrong with that question?

Do you want to go on a second date with them?

Yes.

I was worried about what they were thinking, not about what I was thinking. So, Smith, to your point about like, I'm concerned if other people like me, do I like myself?

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

We're born alone and we die alone. You might as well like the person that you're born and you're dying with.

Yeah. You know, something I actually have a kind of like a curiosity from, I think there's like a few parallels that you and I share with like, in terms of like movement. And then like, stepping into transformational work. How it generally goes for me is like, the thing that I'm practicing, that I'm needing, that I'm working on, like, generally happens to be like, the clients or like, the people that I also like, service. Like, they have the same core wounds and we're actively like, partnering up, right? And recently, more than ever, I reestablished my relationship with movement and body and exercise. Before, I was like really hyper, like, let's just push through everything, you know, with the nature of work that I did. And I recently got to a point where I'm like, man, movement is so important. And I really love that, like, you do yoga, like, you, you know, teach all of your fitness classes, you, you go on and do ICTC, which is inherently like using your entire body. And I can't help but like wonder, because like, for me, I'm like, the more I'm paying attention to my body, the more I actually have access to authenticity. Because my body cannot lie to me. So I'm wondering, like, do you have anything from your experience? Like, do you, would you, uh, anything that you would highlight from like your experiences from moving the body or a lesson there for like other people to like actually take a look at or maybe get curious about, about for their own lives?

I guess that, I mean, I'm, I try to answer things quickly cuz I think that the first thing I think about is often what's most appropriate or most necessary. And there's 2 things that come to mind. One, I'm sure you've all done some variation of this, but I did this with a client in my office the other day and it like changed his life. But in my head, I'm thinking, this is the— this is Improv 101. Like, this is Movement 101 to me. Like, how is this the thing that's going to make a difference? But it's just like taking each of your extremities, your hands, your right hand, your left hand, your right foot, your left foot, standing up and you just shake 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, your right foot and then your left foot. Then you go 4, 3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 2, 1, then 3, 2, 3, 1, 3, 2, 3, 1. And you do it all the way till you get to 1, 1, 1. At the end, he was cackling laughing. And suddenly any problem that he had was just gone. It's just the fact that moving our body moves energy. And if all we're focused on is the hard shit, that's all that our body's going to get accustomed to feeling. So we lose the access to joy, Smith, to your point. And the other is, and most of my clients hate it and my partner even hates it, he's in the other room, is yoga. Not because it's the thing to do, it's just because it is a series of movements that are a little uncomfortable for most people. It's oftentimes you're going to a class and they're using language that they might not hear, so their neuropathway of just linguistics is different. And so it's uncomfortable, but through discomfort is the way that we grow. And if we're in discomfort physically, it's forcing us to ask the bodily questions. How does my digestive system work? Like, how does my shoulder feel? It's bringing awareness of that physicality that we're already using. Like, we're moving through life physically, but we are experiencing life only here. It's the same reason y'all drop in, right? You're not dropping into your mind. We're already there mentally. We're like, God, I'm on a podcast. But you drop into your body like, oh, I'm breathing into the body that happens to have the mind that has consciousness to then do a podcast. So those 2 things would be the top 2 things I would offer movement-wise, the shakedown and some sort of yogic movement. And there's so many different varieties of yoga. Like, it's not— everyone's like, it's so fast, it's hard, I have to be flexible. It's bullshit. In fact, history in yoga is yoga wasn't ever about movement. The asana practice— asana means movement, like the movement of the practice— that was introduced way later. They were like, this isn't hard enough. We should make it harder. When my— as if mindfulness is not hard enough.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that, that, that word was for me. Uh, cause I've been one of those that has sort of like avoided yoga because You know, I feel like if I, if it's too hard, I can't do it because I'm not very flexible, then I'm going to do it wrong. And that's not what I'm here to do. I'm not here to do wrong shit.

Yeah.

We're practicing this chin stand in my classes right now. And it's terrifying for anyone. It's an inversion. So you're upside down, you're putting weight on your chin, it's an arm balance, your legs are in the air. And people were like looking at me practicing it like, oh, wow, that's so cool. I'm like, I literally look into all their eyes in a very serious but gentle, just way. Like, you're not going to learn by watching me do it.

Yeah, I'm just sitting over here being like, man, Americans making every Indian practice harder in life.

Thomas, love it. Thank you so much for that wisdom. I know that we're coming up on time for you, and I apologize to our listeners. We have an abbreviated session with you. We got started a little late, and that was That was me, but I'll own that one.

I'll have to come back.

In the time that we have, yes, absolutely. And in the time that we have back, the time that we have left, my question for you is, do you have any questions for us?

I would say in 2 sentences or less, why are you on this podcast? Each of you.

Yeah, mine's pretty readily available right now. I'll go first. Um, I inherently believe that all of us carry a large amount of darkness in our everyday lives, and this is a way to get to the dark and meet it with light so it does not run the show in the background.

Yeah. Love that. Yeah.

Super important.

Have you ever read The Dark Light of the, uh, the dark, uh, You're gonna probably say it before I finish the sentence.

Yeah.

The Dark Side of the Light Chasers. Have you read it? The Dark Side of the Light Chasers?

No, I haven't.

No.

Bro, you gotta read it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Please send it to me cuz I'm already—

It's literally exactly what you just said.

Thanks.

Yeah, it's actually, um, something that I'm actually reworking with, like, uh, I don't wanna call it rebranding myself, but, um, it's a concept in, uh, like tantric practices, Shiva's teachings, that like darkness is part of the equation. And I've like, I just see a large resonation towards it. So it, I mean, no coincidences. I would love to read that. So yeah, please send it over.

Yeah. And the something that really hit me when I started coaching, I read this book. Do you know who Brooke Castillo is? She's a master certified coach. She had a whole life school. She was very, it's very feminine, very business-oriented. So it was like against everything I am, which is why I probably loved it. She's constantly talking about making money, all that kind of stuff. But she has a very definitive saying. She's like, life is 50% good and 50% bad. We're all— what I hear a lot of light chasers trying to do is get to that 100% good. That's just not how it works.

Yeah.

So anyway, Wes, you're on deck.

Yeah, I love that. I, for me, why I'm on this podcast is even just a few years ago, I had a very confused idea of what it meant to be a good man. And I think that's a very common experience nowadays, and I want to continue navigating that journey for myself and also really help others navigate the same thing.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I'll build on that. Mine is pretty much very similar in, it's an avenue of growth. Like, Thomas, you and I met at a men's retreat, which I take as an opportunity for me to learn more about myself and to expand in ways in my being and my masculinity in ways that maybe I otherwise wouldn't. And so this is a cool forum where we get to just talk about and, you know, iron sharpening iron a little bit just in a public forum, just in a way that hopefully may be helpful to others who are, you know, out there in the public who are listening. But these are very— these are the same type of conversations we'd be having if we weren't recording. Which brings me to another reason why I'm doing this, because I get to hang out with these 3 awesome guys on the regular and just, just talk, right? It's kind of— it provides a little bit of a structure for relationship building that we have, the 4 of us, which is super cool. And it's important to me that, you know, not just on the text threads that we have running all the time, but that I get a chance to see their face and we get to talk and have real talk and, you know, on the regular. So that's, that's a big part of it for me. So yeah, I get to help myself. If a byproduct of that is helping other people, that's awesome. I love that. And I get to see my guys.

While we're having real talk, can you talk about why we started the podcast a bit late today?

Yeah, real talk is because I forgot that today was a recording day and accepted an invitation from a buddy of mine to go out fishing on the Monterey Bay. So my phone buzzed and I pulled it out of my pocket. It was like, hey, you got a podcast recording session in 10 minutes while I'm out on the bay on a fishing boat. So I was able to make it back and thank you all for For a slight delay as I got back to my home.

Yeah.

Thanks for calling me out, Wes. I appreciate you.

No, but you at least like caught a lot of fish for it though, right?

Zero. The number of fish we caught is zero. So yeah.

They're like a bus. The bus just ran right over you, Chris.

Yeah.

I heard the beeping as it backed up right over top of me. But you know what it was? Here's another example. It was a buddy of mine, his 15-year-old son, and another friend that he knows from work, another guy. So it's— it was another opportunity to have really cool conversations with other men, and especially with a 15-year-old in the mix, for him to be able to see what, what, you know, true friendships, what masculine friendships can look like. And it doesn't have to be all the stuff that you see out there. So, you know, no matter where we are, we can do men's work. This podcast is one— was one way.

Yeah, it's so awesome that you got to have that time. And especially, like, I feel like it's such an impressionable age at 15, like, to have good men around you. Like, one afternoon like that can actually, like, change the course of your life. As, yeah, as I'm sure a general afternoon with Chris Grinstedt can do.

Yeah, one way or the other, you won't be the same.

All right, I'm, I'm last. Um, I'm on this podcast because I have a deep yearning and craving for male intimacy. And I define intimacy 2 ways: into me see and into messy. And I get to do both with this amazing group of kings. So that's why I'm here.

That's really cool.

Freddie— Freddie messy as fuck too.

Dude.

Freddie be dropping bars.

Well, he started off this podcast lying. He doesn't live in Dallas. He lives in McKinney.

Look, listen. DFW Metroplex. It's a bunch of different cities and towns.

I'm messing with you.

I know, I know, I know.

Oh, that's amazing. I love it.

I love, love it.

People be acting like I live in Oklahoma.

Oh, you kind of do.

Oh, boy. Oh, man. Thomas, I know we got to let you go. We're up against it. You need to— you have some plans for this evening. So thank you so much, man. We really appreciate you. I'll speak from the I. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us to share a little bit of yourself. For those who are listening who may want to reach out in person for whatever reason, do you want to drop any social handles, any websites, website for ICTC?

Drop what you want. Oh yeah, sure. Easiest is on Instagram, Renergy Coaching, R-E-N-N-E-R-G-Y Coaching. And then ICTC is the Inner Child Theater Camp. It is innerchildtheatercamp.com. Uh, a personal coach. I work with organizations, individuals, and I also teach for Equinox here in the Dallas area. So you can catch me teaching yoga classes and running.

Nice.

I do want a quick picture with everybody. Do I do that now?

Yeah, let's do it.

Yeah, go for it.

It'll be fun.

Everyone, like, make your biggest fun excitement face. Perfect. Oh my gosh, Smith, what is wrong with you?

I was preparing my face. Can we do that again?

Prepare your face again. 3, 2, 1. That's better.

Meeting darkness with light, you know.

You got both the darkness and the light now.

Thanks, man.

All right.

Well, uh, that brings this particular episode to a close. We want to thank Thomas once again for joining us, uh, on our podcast. It is truly a joy and a privilege anytime we get a chance to have, uh, another king join us. And, um, so to all of our listeners, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for laughing along with us as we got a chance to swim in the joy of Renogy. And we will see you all on the next episode. Until then.

Bye.

Be well.