What Separates Men From Boys (It's Not Age) | S02 E02

Welcome back to When Kings Unite. This is Wes. I'll be your host today, and we'll be talking about what separates men from boys, because we know it sure as hell has nothing to do with age. Been seeing a lot of little boy shit in the world recently, and we're going to be talking about what it actually means. To be a man rather than a boy. And first, we got Chris back after a bit of a hiatus. I know we had said we would be rolling without him for a bit, but Given his treatment and we had a bunch of other life things going on for ourselves too, we decided to postpone for a bit. But welcome back, Chris. I know it's based on our release date, it's like you never left. But anything you want to share from your treatment?

Thanks, man. It's really good to be back. Yeah, I'm, I'm through with treatment now. I think when When we recorded our last episode, I was just at the end of my first week of treatment. And as we're recording today, I'm almost 6 weeks out of and done with treatment. So it's been a little bit of a gap there. Feeling okay. Yeah. So recovery is, you know, it's going slower than I had expected, than I had expected. You know, it's right in line with what all of my doctors and everyone were telling me. But, you know, me, I'm, Oh, I'm going to beat that. I'm going to wreck this curve. But overall, I'm slowly getting better in terms of my, my energy levels. The pain is almost gone from my throat. So yeah, I'm just glad to be back with you men in this space and diving into, diving into these subjects around masculinity. Thanks for having me back.

Mm-hmm.

Glad to have you back, King.

Glad you're back, man.

Thanks, brother.

It's, yeah, great to have the 4 of us back again. And I'm reminded of something either Chris or Freddie brought back a while ago where it was this quote that we don't actually teach boys to be men. We just teach them to not be girls. And with that, I want to open the floor here and just ask, what does it actually mean to be a man rather than a boy?

I think the older people on this call should go first.

I'm not sure how I feel about that, man. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Age tells it all. Just kidding.

Well, it's not really. I mean, as Wes said in his intro, It's— age has very little to do with whether one is considered a man or a boy. I think I'd— well, I don't know that it's possible for a 4-year-old male child to be considered a fully formed, embodied masculine man. But we sure know that there are some men who go through their— some people, some males who go through their entire lives never really crossing over that threshold from boyhood to manhood. And yeah, so what separates men from boys, if it's not age, I think it's how you show up, what it is that you're showing up for in the world. And I think that when, when we come into the world, you know, as infants, the only thing we care about is ourselves, is I'm hungry, I'm tired. I'm cold, whatever. Those are the sensations that we have, and that's what is the entirety of our universe. And then we look to our parents, usually first it's our mom, and then both of our parents if we have 2 parents, to address those problems for us. And then as we continue to mature, go through childhood, through adolescence, and into young adulthood, ideally there's a progression. of releasing that self, the centering of self, and really being able to encompass and understand, empathize, and to be with that which is outside of self. So I think that's one kind of component to it. It's certainly— I don't think it's the entirety of the component to it, but I think that when we see so many wounded men, men who are locked in the patriarchal, the performative aspects of masculinity, so much of it is they just can't get out of their own head. They're just locked in themselves. And that's a big part of the work is to find a way to break out of that self-orientation and get to a place of other orientation to grow to mature manhood.

Yeah, this is a, this is a very interesting question. Um, you know, the first thing that comes up for me is, and I know, I, I know I use this word a lot, but it's a frequency. It's, it's, you know, manhood, malehood. It's an energetic. Frequency. It's an energetic signature. It's, I dare say, a flavor or a texture of our individual spirituality. It's like a, it's like a spiritual expression of our malehood, our maleness. And I'm also reminded of a previous episode from the first season around the divine masculine. You know, like we went through and we defined all these different attributes of divine masculinity and what that means. I believe that— and to kind of piggyback off of what Chris just put in, Um, you know, having such a, a deep, a deeply embodied sense of self that, and I'll speak from the I, that I can move through the world with that embodied sense of self without being self-centered. If that makes any sense.

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah, it does make sense. Yeah, and I think, man, I think there's a lot in this conversation for me, 'cause admittedly, I'm 28 years old. Typically, for most people that I hang out with, they're older than me. And I'm typically like the— yeah, thanks.

Yeah, you guys.

Typically the youngest person in any room. friend group or, like, working space that I'm in. And then, like, this sense of, like, well, I'm older than you, so, like, I know better, has been taught down to me. And it's something that I, like, I actively, like, try to rework, like, in my own work and how I, like, look at relationships. But it's a little confronting for me because I do feel young. And I'm called an adult. in the, in the world. But I also am like, man, I feel like I'm very much learning as I'm going, as I'm going. Like, I feel like there's so much information out there in the world and I'm constantly trying to sort through, like, through my own filter, my own values, like what actually, like, resonates with me and what do I find to be important and valuable and what do I want to stand for? Like, How do I want to show up? So it's a tough conversation for me to, like, be with. But the thing that I have uncovered around it is what I truly believe is, like, a boy avoids and a man faces. And this idea of, like, for me, I—

Yeah.

Like, earlier on, I would say, like, 24 and under, like, I would run away from, like, every tough conversation. I would succumb to my impulses. I would, you know, just react impulsively on everything. And it was like when I, like, I was doing my work around like 20-ish years old, but like 24 was when I really found like this idea of like values for me. And I was like, oh, what really matters to me is family, integrity, honor, love, care, presence. And I have like all these things listed out for me. And I don't want to be the person that just, like, reacts to something. I want to be responsible for creating the circumstance that I want. I want to respond, like, through those values. And so, yeah, I, like, sit with that and I feel powerful. And there's also, like, another part of me that I'm not going to lie, as I'm speaking about, it's like, I'm not— perfect? And when does one become a man? And like, I'm sitting with that question. But I guess as I'm talking about it out loud, I think it's a constant choice. Like, I think we can fall to boyhood always.

Yeah.

Yeah, that actually feels really good for me to say. Yeah, I think being a man is a constant choice, and how I want to show up. Yeah, and I think that kind of goes back to like, I get to choose how I want to like create the world around me. And I think that's what a man does. He creates and holds the container.

Yeah, that actually, just listening to you speak and then, you know, sort of ending with that, you know, I'm not perfect piece. That reminded me of, uh, I think it was a group conversation that we all had, uh, during our hiatus where we were talking about, you know, what does it mean to be a king? And I know we're gonna have that conversation at a later time, but one of the things that came up was that, uh, kinghood or kingship, and I'll say this about, you know, malehood and manhood, it's not a destination. It's, it's, it's a It's an energy that we carry. It's an energy that we choose to carry. And it's a process. It's a maturation process. And it's ongoing. There's always more to learn. There is no destination. There is no fixed outcome where, I'm a man, I'm set in my ways, as we like to say sometimes. Like, no, there is no set.

way.

There is no fixed being. There is only moving forward and learning and growing and continuing on in that process. It's a process. It's a human process.

Yeah, like you said earlier, Freddie, it's like a spectrum. You can be at all different points on the spectrum, all different phases of the journey. And From what, what Smith, what you brought in, what I heard in that was respond instead of reaction.

Mm-hmm.

Respond instead of react, which requires self-generation, right? It's like there's something firm inside of you to generate the response as opposed to reacting to the energy of whatever's going on around you, right? And I can't think of anything more generative than the divine. Like, to get back to the divine aspects of masculinity, as Freddie was saying, right? I love how these conversations, all these different points of view, are all pointing us back to the same thing and how it all just ties together around, you know, what it means to embody the divine masculine and the shift from boyhood to manhood.

Yeah, beautifully said. And I want to highlight what Smith said with A boy avoids and a man faces.

Oh, that was good. That was so good.

Both me and Freddie made stank faces and started nodding. We sure did. Like, oh shit, yeah, that's a bar. Um, but like, yeah, I think that's kind of it. Like, this whole thing with like, um, yeah, like manosphere shit, like people these dudes wanting to be strong, but what they're really doing is avoiding being weak. They're avoiding feeling small. Like, yeah, it's the whole thing of like, they're not being men, they're just being not girls, or like what they think a little girl is.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I guess, you know, like what I'm really present to that I would actually love to have a conversation around is like, this world is heavily evolving all the time. I think we're at a very interesting point in society right now. But I, like, as you were saying, like, Wes, I think there's a lot of, like, boy shit going on in the world. Like, what can we do to show up, like, not as boys? But as like men out in the world. Like, I'm actually curious about like what that looks like for each of us.

Yeah.

I mean, you said it's about facing, right? Like, to me, I, yeah, either Freddie or Chris said something about being embodied in self, but not self-centered. And there is— I, yeah, I've talked about this before, where I grew up with chronic pain, where all of these stories, all of this generational shit was just stored inside my body. And, and I've been really fucking facing that, like all of the things in my body that I've been afraid to feel, all the shit that's been keeping me stuck. And yeah, in a, in a recent plant medicine ceremony that, uh, Freddie and I attended, I was purging that shit.

Mm-hmm.

And actually during it, I was like feeling this warrior energy of like, yo, not everyone's built for this shit. Like, not everyone can hold what I did and then face it and actually release it. And it's that facing that actually lets it go. Like, the boy thinks like, oh, like, let me just avoid this thing so I don't become it. That's actually exactly how you end up becoming the thing you avoid. Facing the thing head-on is what allows it to not actually have any control over you.

Yeah.

In my experiences, I have a similar experience, Wes, and it's certainly not avoidance. And I think there's also an element of not making it wrong, not making an enemy out of whatever the circumstances that you're facing, but finding a way to build relationship with it is like that middle ground of empowerment. Like if we go around thinking that everything is a dragon we have to slay, that's also a little bit of that boy energy. Right? Of, you know, it's kind of a polarity of either complete avoidance or complete aggression domination over whatever the circumstance is. But to find a way simply to exist with whatever it is, most of these energetic things, when they come up in our life, simply what they want is simply to be acknowledged. And once they're acknowledged, they're happy to be released. Right. But if we're running away from it or actively fighting against it, then it'll still be present with us in our lives. So I'm super, you know, knowing you, you know, as the many years that we go back together as friends and as, you know, kind of the path that we walked together, like, I, I've seen so much evolution in you and how you've chosen to be in relationship with not only what happened in your past, but what you're carrying in your body in the present. And then, yeah, the powerful way in which you're able to be with and release these things. It's an active process. I don't know if it'll ever be done for you. But the way that you're working through that process is just beautiful.

Thanks so much, Chris. Really appreciate that. And Yeah, I wish I could be done with it. And I'm also realizing I was speaking kind of generally, so to share a little bit more vulnerably, which I've shared a bit before on this podcast, but the thing that I am integrating now is this feeling that I have to be responsible for people's lives and their emotions and their happiness. Like, as a, as a kid, I was heavily parentified by my mom. And so it was like where she basically put her life on me, like literally basically said like she would end it if I didn't help give her a better life.

Damn.

And as like a, yeah, like a 6, 7-year-old, like that's what I had to take on. And that shows up everywhere for me. Like, it shows up, um, in— at work, it shows up in friendships, especially in my romantic relationship where I have to continually let go of that pull of like, oh fuck, I have to leave myself to go care for this person, as opposed to staying with myself while also potentially being there for them too, but not Leaving myself to do so. So in me, it's that, that little boy tendency to try to make sure everyone else is okay so that we can feel safe, when in reality, like, that's not what people in my life that I care about or the world actually needs from me. The world needs me to be embodied and centered in myself rather than—

Mm-hmm.

leaving myself to go deal with all this other shit and losing myself in the process.

That's really cool, man.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like, I'm getting a ton out of this conversation even for myself, even as I'm speaking about it. I really love the conversation. One of the things that I actually plan for this year, I'm actually going to do it with Wes, is It's called like an initiation. And this used to be done in like tribal cultures all the time for men to like, creating like a ritual to turn like boys into men. The rituals used to be way more like heinous. Like, I know someone was telling me about the story where like this boy got like basically tied up to a tree for 4 days and then couldn't eat.

Nailed to a tree.

Oh, thank you.

Nailed to a tree.

Yeah, that's even more fucked.

I don't know.

Like, I think stuff like that That could actually even be more harmful. But I think the ritual of like, hey, let's like really take a look at and slow down to take a look at like what being a man really means is, I think, such an important process. Because I don't think like our— I think our society doesn't really necessarily teach as much as maybe I would like to have happen in our world of like how to actually like be with our feelings.

Yeah.

And I think, like, men who can't be with their feelings become dangerous.

Oh.

And, like, I mean, all of us to some degree, I'm sure, like, we've, like, messed up. I know I have, right? It's just like, I think that happens to people. But then, you know, you get, like, 62 million people going on a frickin' app for, like, an online rape course to figure out how to rape their wives on a regular basis. And that shit's terrible. Like, and I don't necessarily— I don't— I personally don't believe that people are terrible. I think people do terrible things. And I think this, like, culture of not initiating, not slowing down is, like, adding, adding to it.

Yeah.

And so, like, one of my things that I'm, I'm going to be practicing is like, yeah, I really feel like I'm choosing man more in my life, but I really want to make it more of a dedicated practice for me and keep it more at the forefront. And I'm hoping that, like, by being the example for myself first and then for other people, like, hopefully that'll be the change, you know, the world gets to have. I also firmly believe, like, this kind of stuff creates a ripple effect, like us doing this podcast, us coaching people, talking good into the world, people, you know, leaning on, you know, forgiveness and care and getting their neighbor a home-cooked meal when they're tired from doing work. Like, it doesn't matter what it looks like. I think, like, any genuine care, like, adds to the— to the shift. So, um, yeah, I'm really excited for that process. And, um, yeah, I don't think like because I'm doing this thing, like I'll just become a man, but like, I think it's the, the practice of it, um, that I'm, that I'm really, uh, setting my sights on, um, and I find to be super important. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, And I know we have also talked about this in previous episodes as well, but like, what was coming up for me listening to you all share was the performative aspect of masculinity in the boyhood. You know, like, I have the image in my head of, you know, a boy in the mirror, You know, pretending to be like his favorite singer or pretending to be something, you know, other than, you know, what he is, like pretending to be a superhero or something. You know, there's a lot of pretending, there's a lot of performance that happens in boyhood. And oftentimes males don't know or are not— taught or not shown the example of, okay, yeah, when you're a kid, when you're a child, when you're a boy, you know, it's okay to pretend. It's okay to perform and put on a little show. Oh, yeah, that's cute. But this is how, once you transition into manhood, this is how you show up as your intuitive, Self, your whole self. This is how— and I love, Smith, that you brought in, you know, us not as men being taught how to be with our feelings, to be with our emotions, to understand when we're creating and generating moods. Because moods are created. Moods are generated. You know, when you go to a sporting event, there's a mood that is generated for that event. It doesn't just haphazardly happen. There are— it's curated. You know, that event is curated to have that type of energy. And so, we get to be mindful and develop the tools. That's why I love the work that we do so much, because we get so many tools that we can use. To help our clients, but also to help ourselves first, to, you know, learn how to create those moods and be with and manage our behaviors as a result of strong emotions. Because the thing with emotions is they're not— emotions aren't, and feelings are not good or bad.

They're neutral.

There are most— there are emotions and feelings that we prefer to have, and there are others that we prefer not to have, but that does not make them inherently good or bad. You know, but we, we get to learn how to be with those feelings and be with those emotions and learn, okay, this is how I get to, to navigate, you know, those sometimes turbulent waters.

Yeah, I, I'll share not with our viewing or listening audience, but I'll share with you men a photo that I have when I was a kid of wearing my Superman shirt, right, with the, with the logo on it and tucked into my red briefs. And I was wearing a little blanket around my shoulders like a cape and pretending to be Superman. Right. That's, that's that performance. That's that pretending piece that is— it's an important part. You know, we learn through play.

Mm-hmm.

Whether we're boys or girls, as we're growing up, we learn through play. But that, I think, gets back to the importance of what Smith was talking about in the initiation. You know, initiation rites in ancient tribal cultures weren't an iterative thing. It was the death of the boy, energetically or metaphorically, and the birth of the man.

Hmm.

That was— and that's part of the reason why I think people went to such extremes as nailing to a tree or, you know, in almost every ancient culture, the initiation rite for men involves some sort of physical harm, pain, because it was like embodying or signifying the death of the boy. And there's been a lot that's written. Robert Bly, if you've ever written any, any of the— he's a poet from a couple of decades ago, talked a lot about initiation. and the importance of it and how we're missing it in the modern, especially Western culture, and especially for men. When you compare men and women, women don't go through the same form of initiation as historically men do. The initiation for women tends to be more of a biological function, right? When they reach the end of childbearing age and they go through menopause, and there are only— you can count on one hand the number of species on this planet where the female of the species get to a certain age where they stop reproduction, but they continue living because their wisdom then becomes their value. It's no longer the reproduction, it's the wisdom that they embody and that they carry. And humans are one of those species. And that's a big point of initiation for women as they go through their lifespan. Men, we don't have a biological form of initiation as women do with menopause. And that's what's That was the purpose for this cultural or tribal initiation that used to happen in so many different cultures, was to mark that transition and to almost kind of enforce that transition. Absent that, what do we have? We have CEOs, we have board members, we have politicians who are still, figuratively speaking, running around in their Superman shirt, tucked into their red underoos with a blanket, pretending. to be something that they're actually not. And, and the result of it, as you said, Smit, is people doing bad things. You know, we see it in so many different spheres of life. And that, I think, is the real harm that has come to us as a species from, from kind of avoiding or not continuing this tradition that the ancient cultures had of initiating boyhood into manhood.

Yeah.

And I mean, like, by experience also, I think there's like The only one that I see in, like, in our normal day-to-day culture, at least in the US, is like, oh, you're 18, you're an adult. Like, it's just said that you're an adult without any real practice. But I've actually felt this a ton with— so my cultural background is Indian. So my parents are from India and like, I've noticed it more now than ever. Like when I do practices and rituals from my culture, like, It means more to me because it's described. It's like, it's slowed down. But I don't think it has anything to do with the actual doing part of it. It's just like, it's set up in a way where it allows me to see all of myself, whether I'm, you know, praying or doing whatever. Like, it just allows me to tap into me. And that also allows me to tap into the goodness of the universe and realize, like, I'm all the same. with it too. So yeah, it's really interesting. Um, I do see like there are quite a few more people that I'm aware about that are like causing a shift in the culture. Um, yeah, there's, um, a group of people that I've just recently started getting connected with that— connected with. It's, um, the MRM men's group. I don't know if you guys are familiar with them. Um, but yeah, they're, they're amazing. Like Jose Alejandro, Boy West. Um, José Velía. They're all doing like men's rites of passages. And I think it's so cool to see like some of their work for men like that really want to be initiated. And it makes me really excited for the people that really want it. They have an avenue now that's way more accessible. And yeah, I'm hoping that it just creates more widespread goodness in the world.

Yeah, as we're talking about this distinction between avoiding and facing and not pretending like we're invincible supermen or whatever and running the world from that kind of 5-year-old place, it has me wanting to do another kind of doing the work in real time practice. So yeah, anyone want to play here?

Me, me, me.

All right, thanks for—

Nobody else, just you.

Yeah, well, yeah, Freddie and Chris, feel free to follow along as well. But as Freddie mentioned, it is a spectrum, right? The work is not done. There's times where The little boy inside all of us will come out, right, and start to run the show. And even being an embodied man, like, that'll always happen. And so my question to you, Smith, is what feeling are you avoiding right now?

What feeling am I avoiding? Yeah, I think it's like, like guiltiness, it maybe is a feeling, um, like not doing enough, should be more, bad things are happening everywhere, I should be supporting more than I am, um, I should be better, I should have always been better, I should have found I should have done more to create better circumstances for myself. Should be there more for my friends. Yeah, I think it's guilt.

Yeah, thanks for going there. And if we can just be with that guilt for a bit, where is it sitting?

Yeah, it's all throughout my chest and, um, yeah, my right shoulder too, actually. Like, it's like, feels like it's pulling from the front.

Yeah, yeah, I happen to know you have issues with that, that shoulder, so Sounds like that's not a coincidence. What is— what is the guilt? How is the guilt trying to help you?

Yeah, I think the guilt is kind of signaling like, it's like a call forward in a sense. Like, it's like there's an opportunity to be something that you maybe haven't been or to like re-empower different parts of yourself.

Yeah, I would say that.

Yeah.

And what is it scared of? Like, what would happen if you don't?

Wow. I think this kind of ties back to like a sense of control that I have. I'm like, that I do notice that part of it. Like, I got to keep eyes on everything at all times. Um, but I think like, if I don't do that, what I do feel is, um, Like small, I guess. Like insignificant. Not, yeah, just blankly not enough.

What is it like to be with that fear?

Yeah, for me, it's when I say it like that, I realize how, like, childlike it is almost in a sense. Um, yeah, I would, like, if someone said that to me, I would be like, oh my gosh, that's crazy. Why would you think that about yourself?

Wow.

Yeah, and like, I noticed that for me, I could probably extend that same level of like love and care to, to myself too.

Yeah.

So just like a noticing of, um, yeah, love that could be shared. Yeah.

Totally understandable. This part of you wouldn't— doesn't want to feel small and helpless or valueless or, yeah, whatever it is for you. Hmm. How might you give yourself some of that love and care right now?

A few things actually just popped up immediately for me. One is just like rest a little bit first, like not run from thing to thing, running on empty. Like, I get to, like, settle into myself. I'm also noticing, like, I'm actually calming down my mind right now. So it's, it's happening in real time of, like, the awareness. It's like, okay, now what do you want to do when you're actually, like, breathing? There's, like, a totally different conversation that's happening inside of me.

All right.

Yeah. And then I think the thing that is showing up the most is that I get to, um, just impart gentle love into myself and other people because that's the thing that I feel like is actually needed for me and for other people everywhere. Like, I don't need to shove love down people's throats. Um, yeah. And not to feel like I don't need to force myself to like love all parts of me at all times either. Um, But I'm curious, like, you know, before the podcast, like I was talking about writing, like what my writing would look like if I was giving gentle love to myself, what messaging that I would share with the world. And that's like really coming through right now is like, yeah, I had, I think I have like a few topics that I think I would read if I was writing, if someone else wrote it. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's beautiful that that's opening up for you. I'm also wondering, like, what, what would have happened if we didn't do this at all and you just let that scared part run the show?

Yeah, the predictable parts of me know that That I would just be exhausted. I would be tired. I would hyperfixate. I would try to control. I would lose sleep. I would get up cranky. I would try to just put on a very happy smile. I would run the clock again and again and again and again and again. That's what I would do.

Totally. Yeah. And, and to be clear, that's like, you know, that's how so many people are operating. That's how I operate often, actually, when I'm not careful. But yeah, I really appreciate you stepping up and being willing to look at the things that are uncomfortable to look at and take a look at like these kinds of like branching paths even of choosing boyhood or manhood. As the more we're talking about it, The more it feels like being a boy or a man often comes down to a choice in each moment about really listening to ourselves and actually embodying that divine masculine within ourselves. Yeah, thanks so much, Smith. And I just want to open it up to, to any of you to share anything you got from that?

Yeah, thank you for that, Smith, and Wes, for facilitating that. That was beautiful work. And it reminded me of this distinction that I learned several years ago from one of my coaches and mentors, David Bayer. And he talks about, like, part of his framework and methodology is around what he calls the primal state and the powerful state, right? The primal state being rooted in fear and ego. It's like the egoic state. And the powerful state being from a place of love. And you just so beautifully, Smith, Um, like demonstrated that, uh, that distinction. Um, talking about the, the guilt and it coming from, you know, this, this very childlike place of fear. And now, as an adult, as a man, you get to, uh, you get to practice being in and coming from a place of love. In all things. And I think that's ultimately, you know, the— I think at the crux of that transition between boyhood and manhood is being able to recognize, be mindful, be present to when the ego self, when the primal fear-based self is— running the show, as you say, Wes, and actively choosing instead of being reactive by default, being responsive by choice and choosing to come from a place of love and respond in love. So, yeah, I think that was beautiful work, Sumit. Thank you for that.

Yeah. To add on, to build on to what Doc brought in, I think one of the ways that men often get, especially men that are either starting or in the middle of kind of doing this sort of work, where we kind of tend to get stuck a little bit is like, okay, how do I do that? Like, if I see the need and I see the value, it's, I'm not sure how to do that. And Smit, in the work that you just shared with us, what I think really came through was the detrimental power that the busyness of life has on us, distraction of life. When Wes asked you what's predictably true, if you operate from this place of fear, boy, you started rattling off so quickly all the different ways that you would be distracting yourself. As a way of avoiding being with whatever it is that you're afraid of, right? And I think that's that boy energy. That's what it does, as we talked about at the very beginning, is it avoids. And so you also said that what you find is that even real time, you're kind of slowing yourself down and sinking into it. And so I think that to me highlights how we can build the muscle. Like, it can be hard to, hard to do. You demonstrated it so beautifully, but especially for men who are doing this work themselves and don't have the benefit of the support structure that we 4 have built among ourselves. If you build the muscle of just what does it mean to slow down? How do you do it? Whether it's meditation, whether it's breathwork, whatever it is, but to find ways to get yourself into that slower state where you can be more grounded, where you can be more in touch with the non-primal self, but the empowered self. That Freddie talked about, right? Learn how to do that and then to notice when it's happening, oh, I'm distracting myself again. Do that process of inquiry. What am I distracting myself from? Right? And then slow down, find the space, find your ground, and then you can build relationship with it. So I think the experience that we just witnessed was a really powerful example of not just what it the value of doing the work, but even how, as men, we can do that work, whether we have the benefit of having someone like Wes facilitate for us so beautifully, or whether we're doing the work ourselves.

Yeah, so well said. And something I want to highlight too is like, the things Smith was wanting from the little boy state. Like, it was all good things. Like, he's like, I want to help people, I want to do better, I want to like make a stronger impact on the people I love. and the world, but the place it was coming from was not enough, not enough, I'm scared of not being enough, as opposed to coming from this grounded, this measured state of love. And it just goes to show, it's as I think it was— yeah, keep getting Freddie and Chris mixed up on this podcast. One of you said something about like being a man is really about where you're coming from. And I feel like this highlights that so clearly. It's like, even if the actions would otherwise be the same, the place you're doing it from makes all the difference.

Yeah.

Something else real quick I want to kind of highlight that Chris talked about as far as like even referring to the structure that we all have in support of each other. It got me thinking about, like, how, when faced with a challenge, or if a boy is in trouble, you know, how would a boy who's in trouble react to that? You know, he might cower, you know, or he might avoid. He might, you know—

Try to hide it.

He might try— yeah, he might try to hide it or whatever. And then versus how would, how would a man respond to being in, in, in some type of trouble or some type of challenge? And I think it's important to just put into the, into the space the importance of, like, it's, it's completely Okay and manly to request support and ask for help. And that's not something that historically for men that we are like, that's, that's not always our default. You know, that's, that's oftentimes the last thing we'll do is ask for help or request support, you know, to, to go to Any, any support systems or structures that are in place, uh, or even, or even seek it out, even if we don't have the structure in place. Recognize, oh, that's something that I get to have. Let me see where I can, where I can find that. Um, so like, I think that's a really important aspect of manhood and malehood that I think is important to to put into the space as well.

Yeah.

And Freddie, it's also— it's a learned response. That's a learned way of being. Young boys don't have a problem raising their hand and asking for help. We condition them and we train them.

No, that's good.

Men don't do that. Yeah, right. So, and I think it goes back a little bit to what Wes was pointing to, is so much of boyhood or boy-ness, it's not intrinsically bad. It's not like boy bad, man good.

Mm-hmm.

Right? There's, there's so much of, of value that comes from what it is to, to, to be a boy. It just goes through this maturation. We approach it differently. We hold it differently. We relate to it differently from a place of maturity and from solid foundation and from self-empowerment, which is another thing that I heard in what you were bringing in, Freddie, is we, you know, the boy cowers or the boy tries to conceal because the authority is outside of himself. For a man, the authority is within.

Yeah.

Right. And that's, that's what makes the difference in how we relate to it. And that's with all aspects. One of the things that I think that I, I've had reflected back to me in the past, and frankly, it was surprising to me, was like, why are you so serious all the time? Right. And people were legitimately turned off. They were repelled by the fact that I had this very serious demeanor. And I don't know, was it the scowl on my face? Did I have a resting bitch face? Like, I don't know what it was, but it was, it was reflected back to me from in many different contexts, the same thing. It was like, okay, so there's something for me to look at here. And I think what it was is I was carrying this belief that the transition from boyhood to manhood means that play and joy and fun is not allowed anymore. And that's not at all the case.

Yeah.

I think the most mature, manly men out there know how to throw down and have fun and to experience joy and to be goofy and silly. And they're perfectly fine to come from that, to do that coming from a place of, again, that secure foundation, that self-empowered state. Right. So I'm just curious. I would like to throw it out to y'all. Like lightning round. What's the last time you legitimately had fun? What was it that you played?

Say yesterday. Yeah, just kind of being with some of my best friends, just being clowns. Yeah, there's— yeah, I think that's my, my favorite place to plays just with my best friends, just fucking around, like messing with them, roasting them, that kind of thing.

You're pretty good at the roasting part.

Rhett made a crack of one of his friends once, and I just found it to be the most hilarious thing ever.

Uh, my friends are also great at roasting me, so it all goes around.

Yeah, I'll go next. I think, yeah, it kind of happens in moments, but mine was last night too, actually. So we were over at a friend's house and we were playing this game where you have to speak like a caveman. You're not allowed to say, like, more than one syllable at a time, and you get whacked with this, like, balloon if you don't— if you break the rules. And I— Oh, that's fun. I'm really bad at this game.

So let's hear your caveman.

I want to hear it.

Oh dude, I don't even understand syllables. I thought other was one syllable and I kept saying, uh, no, other, other. And they're like, no, stop saying that. I just kept losing.

It was, uh, it was terrible.

Oh man.

Um, yeah, mine was also yesterday. Um, I mean, mine was, mine was more like, um, in terms of, uh, physical touch, which is one of my top love languages. And that, like, that's being able to be fucking.

That was amazing.

That's going in the highlight reel.

Yeah.

Um, That too, but that's not what I'm talking about in this case. Um, uh, but no, like, just like, uh, uh, and this is something that's very challenging for most men, I would say, is like allowing themselves to, uh, in, in a, in a fun and relaxed and non-serious way, Allow ourselves to experience physical touch, intimate physical touch, non-sexual, from another man. And that's something that I'm experiencing now with, with someone that, you know, we're talking, we're seeing, you know, what, what can happen from it. But I'm, I'm really just enjoying Being present with this person, not making it super serious, not making it even sexual. Like, it's totally— like, yes, there is sexual energy and chemistry there, for sure. But just because it's there— and again, that kind of goes again to the whole boy versus man. You know, a boy who— again, not a make wrong, but a boy who— is just coming into, you know, his own sexual energy would probably have less boundaries around it, uh, for himself and with others. Whereas a man can be in his sexual energy and know how to navigate it without, you know, without it being just, you know— Without it being more than it needs to be. And so, yeah, for me, you know, my experience was, you know, yeah, we get to have fun, enjoy each other, enjoy each other's touch, and just be in that energy and in that frequency and not make it mean any more than us just being present and having fun with each other.

I love that.

I really appreciate you bringing in that of like also integrating sexuality and not repressing our sexuality, but also not letting it take over us.

Yeah.

And yeah, I'm sure we'll get into that more in a, in a different episode.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

I'd say it kind of goes back to that idea of polarity, right? Is like, that's what the The boy energy, what it wants to do is avoid the sexual energy completely and like pretend it doesn't exist, or completely go the other way and be super aggressive or super, you know, turned all the way up to 11 with the sexual energy, right? And not have mastery or control on how to navigate through the whole spectrum. Yeah, I love how you brought that in, Freddie, because that is one way, you know, physical intimacy and sex is one way that we can introduce so much play and so much fun.

Absolutely.

Into our lives.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, it doesn't have to be so serious all the time and the storytelling that we make around it. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that in.

Yeah.

Love that.

My pleasure.

Yeah. And one thing I want to point to before we start to wrap, I say that as I'm maybe about to open a can of worms, but I just feel like One way of, like Freddie mentioned, like boys cower or avoid, and one way of cowering and avoiding is actually trying to be a fucking big strong man that doesn't get hurt by anything.

Yeah.

And I remember one of my friends, like we were watching like a Conor McGregor fight in college or something, and one of my friends was like, he's a fucking man. I'm like, I don't know about that, bro. I don't know if he's a man or a little boy who's trying to be the biggest, strongest man in the world. Um, I'm not trying to fight the dude. Don't, don't come after me. I'm man enough to admit I ain't got it like that. But yeah, like avoiding the weakness. is just another way. It's, it's a way our fears can kind of co-opt our strength and make it seem like we're doing the strongman thing when we're really doing the what little boy thinks is a big strongman thing.

Yeah, that line, oh, you want to take this outside? Like that kind of bravado and that kind of machismo, or, you know, which frankly often, especially in boyhood turns into bullying. Right. And we've all— I'd imagine that we've all experienced, you know, bullying to one extent or another. I think everyone has. And as we grow and as we mature, one of the, one of the things that we know to be true, that we learn to be true, is that all of these bullies are just really scared.

Right.

That fear and that avoidance is underneath it. And it's under this veneer, performative veneer of strength. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that in, Wes. That's so true in so many different ways. And we see it all around us, right? That's the way that people show up, especially men show up as kind of bullies or as tyrants. It's pretty transparent if you know what to look for, if you're actually looking for it, to see the fear underneath it and the avoidance underneath it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, great Key and Peele sketch of the self-aware bully when he's like, oh yeah, I have a bad home life and therefore I'm going to exert my force on you to feel a sense of control.

I love that skit.

Yeah.

Um, one more thing I want to put in, um, that I think is important. to highlight about specifically about what, what, what I feel makes me a man.

The beard. Your beard game is really coming on strong, brother.

I feel sad for Spotify, Apple listeners.

Right. Those of you on YouTube, you're basking in the glow of the beard. Yeah.

I'm the only one without a beard. So I guess Spotify, Apple listeners, just imagine with the biggest, most glorious beard possible.

Yeah, Wes is a man.

Wes, I have a photo of you. There will be an AI-generated image of you with like a ZZ Top beard. That's coming.

Dude, I can't wait to see that.

I'm gonna see what I can do about that. Very helpful.

Fucking hilarious.

Then I'll finally feel like a man.

Make sure he has that Conor McGregor tattoo on him too.

Yeah.

All right, well, yeah, really, really great first episode back after some time. So great being with y'all. And to our viewers and listeners, hope you guys had a great time listening to this episode on what it really means to be a man as opposed to a boy. And also knowing that the work is really in the moment of choosing for yourself, am I gonna react like a little boy, or am I gonna respond like an embodied man? With that, we're wrapping this up and excited to see you all next time.